EPISODE 62: I Wish That Was My Last Kiss

Summary

Podcast Summary: Strangers on a Bench – Episode 62: I Wish That Was My Last Kiss

Host: Tom Rosenthal
Date: November 17, 2025

---

Episode Overview

In this evocative episode, Tom Rosenthal sits beside an anonymous 84-year-old woman on a London park bench. Their candid conversation spans themes of aging, activism, memory, friendship, family, sexuality, and mortality. The guest, with humor and honesty, reflects on nearly nine decades of life, unearthing stories about her bohemian youth, lifelong activism, motherhood, relationships, sexual awakening, and what it means to grow old—especially as a lesbian woman. The tone is intimate, touching on both profound and mundane truths.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Fluidity of Time in Old Age

• The guest has lost any preference for days since retiring:
  • "Since I'm now almost 85, I don't have those divisions anymore." (01:00, Guest)
• She jokes about age and appearance, showing self-awareness and humor:
  • “You don’t look almost 85.”
  • "This is the way 85 can look." (01:15, Guest)

2. Lifelong Activism: Women in Black

• Saturday vigils for peace have been a constant:
  • "We stand silently... with signs saying, stop the war, Stop arming Israel, Peace no more, whatever." (01:41, Guest)
  • The group has met weekly since an escalation in 2023:
    • "This younger Israeli woman started [it] the week after the whole thing blew up on October 7th. So we've been doing it two years." (02:11, Guest)
• She feels activism is sometimes futile but necessary:
  • "You think to yourself, this is pathetic. But then you do what you can." (02:39, Guest)
• The meaningful use of black clothes through decades and cultural markers of bohemianism in the 1950s (03:06-03:20).

3. Conflict & Growth in Mother-Daughter Relationships

• Her relationship with her mother was complicated:
  • "She resented everything that I became, which was not the trajectory that I think she would have liked." (05:19, Guest)
  • "She was very strong willed, but she hadn't had a chance to do the things that I had a chance to do." (05:48, Guest)
• A formative childhood episode: a promise of $50 for not smoking was reneged, resulting in first smoking at college (06:13-07:33).

4. Death, Dignity, & End of Life Decisions

• Devastating loss: her father (2007), youngest brother (2008), and demented mother (2009). She advocates for end-of-life choice:
  • "I belong to... My Death, My Decision, because, believe me, I do not want to hang around like she did." (08:25, Guest)
• Has witnessed friends suffering in their end days and would prefer autonomy over her death:
  • "I would like to go, you know, I don't want to hang on." (08:45, Guest)
  • A group of friends agreed that 85 is the optimal age for dying but she maintains enjoyment in life through social and intellectual engagement (09:54-10:50).

5. Childhood Adventures and Lifelong Friendship

• Fond memories of wild, unsupervised days:
  • "We were so free. We were running wild in the woods..." (11:25-11:56, Guest)
  • Recounted causing a fire (13:20):
    • "We started setting fire to little bits of wood and leaves... It had spread. We tried and we could not get it out. So we tore back to her house and her mother... went tearing off... call the fire department now."
  • The friendship with Nancy, her childhood accomplice, has persisted for nearly eight decades, enduring even as Nancy now faces memory loss.
    • "She's still my very close friend... That's a really long friendship." (15:21-15:24, Guest)
    • "Nancy is entering a period of some kind of memory loss, maybe dementia, just at the beginning... now it's clear that you might look after her." (15:48-16:23, Guest)
  • Key to their friendship:
    • "There are some friends... you can be apart from them for ages and you just click back in." (16:36, Guest)

6. Sexual Identity, Late in Life

• The guest identifies now as a lesbian, having come out later in adulthood:
  • "I'm a lesbian now. I didn't used to be." (17:45, Guest)
  • Sparked through involvement with the women's liberation movement and work at the feminist magazine Spare Rib:
    • "That I blame the women's liberation movement, which I'm still involved in." (18:16, Guest)
  • Her attraction to women grew gradually and did not start with unhappiness in marriage:
    • "I do not believe I was always really a lesbian. I think I was a very happy, hopeful, involved heterosexual." (19:57, Guest)
  • First same-sex affair unfolded subtly and with self-discovery:
    • "I was working at Holloway Prison... I fell under the spell of a much younger woman who was in prison, and she was much more experienced at seducing people." (20:44-21:20, Guest)
    • "I was absolutely knocked out by lesbian sex. It was fabulous... what I didn't realize was how much pleasure I would get out of making love to a woman." (22:35-23:14, Guest)

7. Relationships, Marriage, and Family Impact

• Her ex-husband remains an important part of her life:
  • "If he hadn't been the principled and incredibly generous person that he is, it might not have worked very well." (23:42, Guest)
  • Though their marriage ended, they never divorced and remain close (24:15).
• Difficulties reconciling relationships and motherhood:
  • Children were 8 and 10 when she came out.
  • On their reaction:
    • "One of them said, who is he? And I said, it's not a man, it's a woman. And he said, oh, that's good." (40:41, Guest)
  • Accepts that her choices affected her children but rejects that she is the sole cause of their struggles:
    • "You get fucked up for a lot of different reasons, not just one." (38:31, Guest)

8. Aging, Sexuality & Solitude

• She embraces solitude and has retired from romantic relationships:
  • "I wouldn't want to have a relationship now with anyone... I'm also a very... I really value and need solitude." (30:34-31:28, Guest)
• On the last person she kissed:
  • A sweet memory, then the admission of wishing a better kiss had been the last:
    • "I've just lied to you because, in fact, that wasn't my last kiss at all. Maybe I wish that were my last kiss." (32:53-33:05, Guest)
  • Her last actual romantic encounter was "about 14 years ago." (34:00, Guest)
  • Finds sexual pleasure in masturbation and insists this is also sex:
    • "My idea of sex is if you got off on having your elbow, your right elbow touched gently by a finger... that's sex." (35:49, Guest)
    • "Do you still do it even?" "Oh, yeah, yeah." (36:12-36:19, Guest)
  • Known as the "sex lady" at Holloway Prison for honest discussion about sexuality (34:25 & 34:30).

9. Life Advice, Reflection, & The Value of Risk

• Cautions that major life changes impact others and advocates balance:
  • "Nobody exists as a discrete human being without a context of people you are responsible for and you love." (37:39, Guest)
  • Encourages not letting fear of risk dictate one’s life:
    • "Being afraid and too nervous to take risks is not the way forward either." (38:30, Guest)
  • Values time’s ability to heal and mend family ruptures.

10. On Aging, Legacy, and What Comes Next

• Enjoyed her 40s, 50s, and 60s, but 80s bring mortality into sharper focus (42:08-42:40).
• Gave up alcohol at the start of lockdown, finds it easy to stop (43:17-43:43).
• End-of-life wishes already planned:
  • Burial plot above a late friend in the South Downs; not a believer in the afterlife but open to mystery:
    • "When you die, there might be some spark of energy... wafted up and joined all the other stuff churning around in the world." (29:38, Guest)
• Continues to be socially engaged, now collecting stories of women's liberation activists at HOWL (45:22-45:35).
• On her next steps:
  • "Next today I am going to make myself an absolutely delicious sandwich which will be piled with all kinds of lovely, luscious things to eat. I love food. I don't drink, I don't smoke, I wank. But you can't do that continuously and you can't live on wanks." (45:46-46:16, Guest)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On activism: “You think to yourself, this is pathetic. But then you do what you can.” (02:39, Guest)
• On bohemian youth: “Back in the 50s, you would dress like what you thought a French bohemian woman would look like.” (03:13, Guest)
• On leaving marriage: “I felt bad because it wasn't like I was thinking, I can finally escape this horrible marriage... It wasn't an escape.” (20:20, Guest)
• On sexual awakening: “I was absolutely knocked out by lesbian sex. It was fabulous.” (22:35, Guest)
• On family consequences: “I said, you get fucked up for a lot of different reasons, not just one.” (38:31, Guest)
• On solitary pleasure: “That's what I will do next. But next in life I am working at getting going on some stuff. ... I don't drink, I don't smoke, I wank. But you can't do that continuously and you can't live on wanks.” (45:46-46:16, Guest)
• On mortality: “It's like the proximity of death… it just makes it different.” (42:40, Guest)
• On what’s left to do: “I want to see what’s going on in the United States with traffic, Trump fucking ended. And I want to see this thing in Gaza stopped right away, please now, because this is a nightmare.” (46:46-47:12, Guest)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening Park Conversation & Age (00:04–01:26)
• Women in Black Vigil & Activism (01:41–02:45)
• Mother-Daughter Conflicts (04:53–07:33)
• End of Life Decisions & Dying with Dignity (08:00–10:50)
• Early Childhood & Starting a Fire (12:01–15:00)
• Nancy & Enduring Friendship (15:21–16:36)
• Coming Out and Sexual Fluidity (17:45–23:14)
• Navigating Family After Coming Out (23:42–24:23; 40:40–41:08)
• On Retirement from Sex & Last Kiss (32:53–34:13)
• Discussion of Masturbation, Sex in Later Life (35:49–36:24)
• Advice on Facing Change (37:39–38:31)
• Burial Plans and Thoughts on Spirit (25:59–29:38)
• Observations on Aging (42:08–42:40)
• On Stopping Drinking & Observing Life Around (43:17–43:43)
• Women’s Liberation History Project (45:22–45:35)
• Last Reflections & Plans (45:46–47:12)

---

Conclusion

This episode offers a deeply moving snapshot of a life well-lived, brimming with humor, insight, and honesty. The guest’s reflections on family, activism, friendship, aging, and love radiate warmth and defiance. For those who have ever wondered about the lives unfolding quietly on park benches, this conversation is a reminder of the wisdom and stories waiting at the heart of a stranger.

Transcript

[A]

Hello. Sorry to bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench, where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a go? Do you have a favorite day of the week?

[B]

A favorite day of the week? The week? No. Would you like me to expand on that a bit?

[A]

Yes, please.

[B]

I might have thought about the week in relation to five days of the week and two days of weekend and then sussed it out from there. But since I'm now almost 85, I don't have those divisions anymore.

[A]

You don't look almost 85.

[B]

This is the way 85 can look.

[A]

Hot.

[B]

I wouldn't say that.

[A]

Well, at least vibrant.

[B]

Good, good, good, good. I tend to like Saturdays. I don't know why. And also I have to do something every Saturday, which I'm pissed off that I have to do, but still.

[A]

Can you say what it is?

[B]

Yes. I go on a vigil called Women in Black. Most of us are ancient. We stand silently. Ha ha. We chatter with signs saying, stop the war, Stop arming Israel, Peace no more, whatever.

[A]

How long have you been doing that for?

[B]

There is a regular mating thing that happens every week called Women in Black that's been going for about a thousand years.

[A]

A thousand years?

[B]

Yes. Almost a thousand years. You'd be surprised. Wow. And that is for the end of arms and violence etc all over the world. But this one, this younger Israeli woman started the week after the whole thing blew up on October 7th. So we've been doing it two years.

[A]

So bleak, isn't it?

[B]

You think to yourself, this is pathetic. But then you do what you can.

[A]

Something.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And it's not pathetic at all.

[B]

So anyway.

[A]

And you dress in black.

[B]

You're supposed to dress in black.

[A]

There's not much black on you today.

[B]

No.

[A]

So is that a struggle?

[B]

I like black. I have my black ears. When I was a bohemian young woman.

[A]

What are black ears?

[B]

Black years.

[A]

Oh, years. Sorry.

[B]

Black years.

[A]

I thought you said black ears. For a minute. I didn't know what?

[B]

Black ears.

[A]

Oh, I see. So you've had your black years era.

[B]

Yes. Back in the 50s, you would dress like what you thought a French bohemian woman would look like.

[A]

And would you act bohemian?

[B]

Well, you would be interested in being seen as bohemian? Possibly more.

[A]

If I bought out you in the bohemian black era?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I introduce her to you now?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Do you think you would recognize each other?

[B]

I think I would. I'M quite a different person, obviously. But in the 50s, to long to be bohemian and not a preppy girl, because I lived in America then, was making a stand, a sort of individualistic stand.

[A]

Did anyone disapprove?

[B]

I think my mother earlier on possibly did when I appeared one day when I was 12 or 13, trying to find my way into how I liked wearing clothes, because we didn't think about clothes as much then. But I came downstairs in a pair of Bermuda shorts and a pair of tights on underneath them, and my mother said, you're not going out wearing that, are you? Classic. And I said, yes, I am. And she said, no, you're not.

[A]

And who won out?

[B]

Oh, she did.

[A]

Oh, she did?

[B]

She did.

[A]

Did you get on well with her?

[B]

I think she was probably a wonderful mother for a baby and a very small toddler, she and I, which he worked for long last, like, no, thank God. We clashed like mad.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

Later on. Really? Really.

[A]

Did you ever not clash?

[B]

Yeah, but rather late in life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is sad. I got there and I felt for her and I thought, you know, poor old Mommy, she. She resented everything that I became, which was not the trajectory that I think she would have liked.

[A]

What would she have liked for me.

[B]

To be like her?

[A]

We've heard that one before.

[B]

She was very strong willed, but she hadn't had a chance to do the things that I had a chance to do. And for instance, she. She didn't work. Paid work.

[A]

Yeah. And so at what point did your trajectory go so far off that she kind of didn't recognize it?

[B]

Well, I. When I was a kid, she told me she did not want me to smell. And she offered me an incentive. And the incentive was that she would give me $50 when I turned 18 if I hadn't started smoking.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[B]

So I thought, okay. And I didn't smoke. And then when I turned 18, I didn't rush in. I wasn't going to be totally grasping and everything, but at a certain point I said, well, Mom, I'm 18 now. I didn't start smoking. And now you said, you give me $50. She said, I never told you that. No. And I said, you did. And we had a terrible fight. But she won because she had the power. And I thought to myself, well, fuck that. I'm not going to necessarily do what she says. But she was a. She was in many ways a very principled, good woman. And of course then I did begin smoking immediately, as soon as I got to college.

[A]

That's why you must give Your children, the money you promise them. What was the end of her life like? I mean, right at the end. Did you.

[B]

Very sad. Yeah, very sad.

[A]

Why?

[B]

Let me see. My dad died in 2007, my youngest brother in 2008, and my mother in 2009, and she was demented and miserable, and she would, I think, have liked to have gone a lot earlier.

[A]

Oh, dear.

[B]

So that was sad.

[A]

That's a tricky three years.

[B]

I belong to. Is it dignity and dying or dying with dignity? And I belong to another group called My Death, My Decision, because, believe me, I do not want to hang around like she did. So.

[A]

Yeah. How do you feel about your death and your decision?

[B]

If I have friends who say they'll hang on with their last fingernail, grasping onto life. Very thoughtful, interesting people. Not me, I hope. I hope I don't lose my courage, because I would like to go, you know, I don't want to hang on. I've been around too many friends and very close friends who had terrible endings. I had one friend who screamed at the three friends who were looking after her, of whom I was one, saying, I want to go to Switzerland. I said, but it's not possible. And she said, why not? You could help me get on the plane. Said, no, you have to start the process. You have to.

[A]

You could have thought ahead.

[B]

You have to go through interviews and medical things and psychiatric stuff before they will. Before they'll help you.

[A]

At what point do you. I mean, obviously, you know, full of life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're clearly walking around.

[B]

Well, I had a group of friends, women who were involved with caring for their parents. And we all decided that the optimum year for dying was 85, because everybody that we knew had started to decline after that. Decline in terms of how they were coping and so on. But I still enjoy life. I get out. I've been to Pilates. I've walked around the park. I'm going home, reading my book, my study group, the groups I'm involved in and projects. That's okay for keeping on, but it's when you lose that. But it's a conundrum. It's a problem. It's a. Who knows? All I can do is hope that it'll unfold and not in a horrendous way.

[A]

Yes. Well, I've crossed my fingers for you, but you're looking. You're looking good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, so you've got that. And you're nearly 85.

[B]

I'm nearly.

[A]

You're nearly at this. This big year for you.

[B]

I'm 84 and seven months. You know, when you're little, you say, I'm five and a half or seven.

[A]

I love that. 84 and seven months. I love that. This is a funny question for you. Can you think of your most memorable month of your life? We're breaking it down into months.

[B]

No. No, I can't. No, I wouldn't want to. You know, when I was a kid, I used to think every year was the best year. And I can remember from about the age of six or seven saying, oh, I'd like to be seven forever. I love being seven. You know, I was excited. I liked school. I had really good friends. We had adventures. We were so free. We were running wild in the woods as a.

[A]

Let's pick any around. Seven, eight, nine, that kind of age. Ten, if you want.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Can you take me through a free day as a kid? As a kid?

[B]

Well, one. I might have stayed overnight at my friend Nancy's house. And she had four brothers and sisters and a very volatile family.

[A]

Did you enjoy that?

[B]

Oh, we had tremendous fun. We started. This wasn't fun. This was an adventure. And Nancy was always in for adventure. And she had got a box of matches. So we were about 10, I'd say, and we were in the woods behind her house, walking around, and it was marshy, so it was a stream. But beside the stream there were these tiny little bits of water and wet stuff, and on patches that were dry, we started setting fire to little bits of wood and leaves. And it was great fun. And suddenly, fuck me. Either she or I looked out and said, what? This fire. This fire.

[A]

Were you surprised?

[B]

Yes. I mean, it had spread.

[A]

It had spread. I see it had spread.

[B]

And we started stamping it out and it was all over. It was like popping up. So it obviously got under.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we tried and we could not get it out. So we tore back to her house and her mother was there, Betty. And Betty was someone who used to go out climbing and doing all sorts of wonderful things. And she was very fit. And she seized, I don't know, a broom or whatever she did, and she went tearing off and she said, call the fire department now. So we sat on the stairs and Nancy got the phone and told them that there was a fire. And by that time you could see smoke coming out of the woods. And about three or four fire engines arrived and it burnt about not an acre, but a quarter of an acre down. And the fire engines had to go out the back of their house and cut through fields. And it was. Anyway, we Were in big trouble.

[A]

I could imagine. What did he. What kind of trouble?

[B]

What did.

[A]

Trouble.

[B]

We were beside ourselves with crying and apologizing and actually, in the end, I think what they did, her parents, they thought, these girls have learned their lesson. I mean, we were moaning and crying and saying, we'll never do this again, we'll never do this.

[A]

So that was your last forest fire you started.

[B]

I was always afraid of fire after that. So that was an exciting thing. That wasn't the best thing.

[A]

But that was, you know, you're creating mischief in the. In the woods, basically.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

With Nancy and all the.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

All the rest of it.

[B]

She's still my very close friend.

[A]

Oh, she's still around. Oh, wonderful.

[B]

Yeah. I went back to the hideous United States this summer and I. And spent five days at the end with Nancy and her husband.

[A]

That's a really long friendship, that is. When you talk to her now, when you look into her eyes, I can.

[B]

Somehow see bits of the old Nancy. Nancy is entering a period of some kind of memory loss, maybe dementia, just at the beginning. It doesn't change how I'm able to be with her because we can talk and everything, but it's not quite the same. She was somebody who told me maybe when I was 60, don't worry, I'll look after you. But the sad thing is now it's.

[A]

Clear that you might look after her.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So what's the. What would you say is the key to. Because it's no mean feat to maintain a friendship for 80 odd years. What's. What. How have you done it?

[B]

Don't you think? I don't know what you find, but I find there are some friends and you can be apart from them for ages and you just click back in. We just kind of fit in together immediately. It's not that we. She can't. She can actually drive me crazy. We used to. In the back of the station wagon that her mother drove, she would take us all to a beach in Rhode island and we would be in the very back. You didn't wear seat belts or anything, so you were all just thrown in and rolling around. And if we had like a lollipop, let's say we'd have a little kind of competition going about who could make it last the longest. And Nancy was always a hundred times better at being sneaky than me. And that used to drive me crazy because she always won. Always. And sometimes she'll show me a bit of that old Nancy that comes.

[A]

The sneaky Nancy comes along.

[B]

We just we haven't had the same life at all. I'm a lesbian now. I didn't used to be.

[A]

Oh, that's exciting.

[B]

It is what it is. You know, it's been a long time. It's hardly exciting. I can hardly remember.

[A]

Is there lesbian now, though I identify as a lesbian. When was the.

[B]

That was around when I was quite. Quite old. I was with my ex husband, who I adore. We see each other every week. That I blame the women's liberation movement, which I'm still involved in.

[A]

Tell me more.

[B]

Well, because I got involved in that and that was great. And it was great for all of us. And, you know, there was no arguments about that between him and myself, but I think it opened up a possibility. And there was a point where I started working and then I got a job at a magazine called sparerib. If you Google sparerib, you'll see vast amounts on it. The major early feminist magazine. So I was doing all sorts of things and I had the kids and I thought my husband was lovely. He didn't just help out with the kids. He really took a lot of care of them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I've seen. Suddenly began thinking I was quite attracted to women.

[A]

Do you remember a moment when something clicked or did it just.

[B]

I mean, I could not say I did. It was a more gradual thing than that.

[A]

If you're feeling that, it must mean that emotion was being pushed down in some way. I mean, what. Something must have lifted for you to be able to feel that.

[B]

I do not believe I was always really a lesbian. I think I was a very happy, hopeful, involved heterosexual.

[A]

Yeah. And something changed.

[B]

And then something didn't so much change as open up.

[A]

Yeah. Okay.

[B]

And I felt bad. I felt bad because it wasn't like I was thinking, I can finally escape this horrible marriage. I can run off with my children. On the one hand, I didn't want to run off with my children because how would I take care of them all on my own?

[A]

Yeah, of course. So how did you do it?

[B]

A little bit sneakily. I was working at Holloway Prison.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I had been a dancer in college, and I was teaching movement and dance and women's health. And I fell under the spell of a much younger woman who was in prison, and she was much more experienced at seducing people. Wow.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

My grandson told me I should have a podcast.

[A]

Well, there we go. This is. You're on one now. Okay. Now this. He's passed us. You're working at Holloway Prison.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

One of the inmates is Trying to seduce you. And it worked?

[B]

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. But the thing was, I said I was going off to a conference, and I didn't go to a conference. I went off to her place when she was out. That was it.

[A]

Did you do anything in the prison itself with her?

[B]

No.

[A]

No. Okay.

[B]

No, I wouldn't. We were quite a political bunch who were teaching there, and we weren't stuck stupid in that way. I mean, you know, to break all the rules wouldn't help the women that we were teaching. It would just get them in trouble and us in trouble.

[A]

So. So she was your first lesbian experience?

[B]

And not my last.

[A]

But can you tell me what. What you remember? You know, in a kind of PG version of that first there's been experience. Is that okay to ask you?

[B]

What I discovered was that I was absolutely knocked out by lesbian sex. It was fabulous.

[A]

Tell me more knocked out in terms of you just. It was just. You're just completely awakened to something.

[B]

I imagined that I would be seduced and would experience pleasure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

However, what I didn't realize was how much pleasure I would get out of making love to a woman.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

I'm very intrigued about how you navigated everything with your husband and how that all worked out.

[B]

Well, I think if he hadn't been the principled and incredibly generous person that he is, it might not have worked very well because he was not happy at all. And that was difficult. I mean, really. That's enough of that, probably. Because, I mean, he's still a very, very close person to me, more than a friend, and we never bothered to get divorced.

[A]

Oh, that's lovely. Oh, it's wonderful that it's very. I mean, it's. I mean. So he's played a huge role in your life.

[B]

Oh, yeah. And I. And his.

[A]

And I'm very tempted, so. You're very. You're so wonderful. And I. I would love to have a bit more time with you and also not be disturbed by that guy. Do you think we can move just so, I don't know, have a little wonder to over there or something?

[B]

Well, this is my way out.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So I'll walk there and we can have a little bit of more time.

[A]

Can you give me like 20.

[C]

20 minutes?

[A]

20 minutes. Can you hold that as you go?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay, so here we go. This is the first time we've done walk and talk. We're breaking whole new ground.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Quite exciting, isn't it?

[B]

Yes, it is. Can we make a circle around that tree?

[A]

What does this part Mean to you? Is it a. Kind of.

[B]

When I got married, we found a flat and that was 63 and believe me, it was not vibrant and fabulous around here. It was sort of depressing. And I used to come to the park occasionally, but I didn't have feelings of love for it. I'll tell you what I had feelings of love for. From back there is the Abney cemetery.

[A]

Oh yes. I meaning to go.

[B]

It's now, in a way, it's almost a little bit over curated.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But back then it was just a wild mess and nobody was in it and it was fabulous. I loved it.

[A]

Would you like to be buried there?

[B]

No, no, no. I have a burial spot.

[A]

Oh, do you?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Can you tell me about it?

[B]

Well, one of my closest friends from where I worked, it's a little book publisher and one of the women who worked there was a lot younger, but she got cancer and died. So we ended up finding a natural burial place. And I loved it there. It's on the South Downs and she's buried there. And at the time I thought, well, why don't I get a little plot here?

[A]

Oh yeah.

[B]

And I'm right above where she is. And of course now there are all these trees and everything. So I told the kids and friends and I said, you know, you can use that for me, but if you don't want to, who cares? I won't.

[A]

So it's there if you need it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so you'll be with your friend. Yeah, Lovely.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What does she mean to you?

[B]

Somebody who was incredibly vibrant and full of energy and was incredibly important in this little feminist book publishing thing. And we can go down.

[A]

Which way do you want to go? As long as we get away from Mr. Mo. Mowing. Yeah, Mr. Mo, we'll be safe.

[B]

And that we could sit here. It's a little bit not very pretty, but who cares?

[A]

That's a good point. Who cares? Exactly.

[B]

But that publisher. There was a lot of conflict at Sparerib, the magazine in the 80s, around racism, sexuality, all sorts of things. And when I went to Sheba, it was tiny and it was a self consciously mixed race collective. There were only ever about five of us who worked there and it was always by conscious choice, one more black woman than white women. So we never got into a situation where suddenly you looked around and you thought, oh fuck, we're all white. So I was fortunate in being able to work with that group. And she was only 38 when she died, so I miss her. She's somebody totally unlike Nancy. But we clicked, yeah.

[A]

And so you'll be happy to be next to her?

[B]

Well, if I am, I mean, I'm happy thinking about it now, as I said, who cares after?

[A]

You're not. You're not an afterlife believer?

[B]

No, no.

[A]

What do you say to people that.

[B]

Are good for you? I wish you luck. What else can I say? Bit mean, isn't it?

[A]

Have you got anything? If I forced you into some kind of thinking of something beyond death, could you ponder anything?

[B]

What, you mean something? You mean after dying?

[A]

I don't know. I play devil's advocate.

[B]

Okay. I wouldn't mind exploring and thinking about when you die. There might be some spark of energy or something that wafted up and joined all the other stuff churning around in the world. Because I do think there's lots of things around consciousness and spirit and so on that we haven't really explored. So I'm not an enemy of that kind of thinking.

[A]

Well, you've got a lot of spark just now. So, you know. Now tell me, what's it like? I've spoken to a handful of older gay men. I haven't spoken to older gay women until you. That you might be the first.

[C]

First.

[A]

What's it like being an older lesbian? Is that an okay question to ask?

[B]

Yeah, of course. Well, it's different things for different old lesbians. Very different things. For me, it's there as a kind of comforting constant in the sense that if anybody asked me, I would still say, oh, yeah, I'm a lesbian. But in terms of its meaning in my life, day to day, zilch. I mean, I wouldn't want to have a relationship now with anyone because I don't have the patience to live with someone. I'm very social person, but I'm also a very. What's the word? When you like being on your own.

[A]

You like your own company. Like solitude.

[B]

Solitude. I really value and need solitude. I mean, who knows? Here I am being very social with you.

[A]

You are. I've spoiled your solitude.

[B]

But I have the rest of the day. I don't have to worry about any of that.

[A]

Can I ask you who the last person you kissed was in a romantic way?

[B]

Fortunately, it was a woman, Irish woman. And I had a brief fling with her after the ending of my last serious relationship. With everybody. With anyone. With everybody. With anyone.

[A]

The last is actually everybody. I've broken up from everybody.

[B]

And it was gorgeous because it was sexy and completely sweet and funny and it wasn't serious. And so I had the chance, after this horrible breakup to have Someone that I had a lovely time with. And do you know something? What's your name?

[A]

My name is Tom.

[B]

Tom. I've just lied to you because, in fact, that wasn't my last kiss at all.

[A]

Okay, come on, then.

[B]

That was what I wish.

[A]

Oh, I see. So you wish was the last.

[B]

Maybe I wish that were my last kiss. No. I was pursued by a woman who was, I thought, incredibly hot and gorgeous and younger. And I was very clear that I didn't want to live in anybody's pocket ever again. I didn't want them in my pocket either. And she agreed with me on all of that. And guess what? She lied. Because she almost immediately started nagging and pushing for me to be much more than I had been prepared to be. Okay, so sadly, that's the last kiss.

[A]

How long ago was that?

[B]

Quite a long time ago.

[A]

What are we talking?

[B]

I've wiped it out? That was about 14 years ago. Yeah.

[A]

And then that's been retirement.

[B]

Then that's retirement from love making. Oh, except that, you know, there's wanking.

[A]

I was always wanking. Yeah, good point.

[B]

I mean, I think it is a good point.

[A]

Do you still do it now?

[B]

In prison, I was known sometimes as the sex lady.

[A]

What does that mean?

[B]

Well, I would talk about it, about what women felt about different things and so on.

[A]

So you opened a lot of people's eyes.

[B]

Well, along with a number of many other women who were doing that kind of work. There's a lot of us around.

[A]

So what do we not know then about old people and sex? Do you think. Do you think we don't talk about it enough?

[B]

Old people and sex? Probably not enough. And also definitions of sex are still too constricted to fucking. Whereas my idea of sex is if you got off on having your elbow, your right elbow touched gently by a finger, and it wouldn't matter whether it was your finger or somebody else's, that's sex. If that's what gave you delicious pleasure, that's sex. So I consider wanking sex sex. Yeah, I know there's something special about flesh on flesh, but. So there are many special things in the world. You don't get to have them all completely. And there are also special things about doing it for yourself.

[A]

Can I ask a very personal question? Do you still do it even? Oh, yeah, yeah. Fantastic.

[B]

Of course. I have a collection of sex toys.

[A]

Oh, dear.

[B]

Oh, that stupid dog I gotta keep on a leash.

[C]

Terrifying.

[A]

I have a phobia.

[B]

Swan. Yeah. No, he's very scared. Yes. Of what? Everything. Of swans?

[A]

No, of swans specifically?

[B]

Well, swans are really scary. But the point is, the dog should not. No, but I guess the dog doesn't.

[A]

Know any better, does he?

[B]

No, but the person with it should. Okay, let's. Let's go away from this one.

[C]

Have a nice.

[A]

Yeah, you too, guys.

[B]

Don't get hurt by the swan.

[A]

We'll do our best. So where were we? Wanking.

[B]

Leader and the swan.

[A]

Can I ask you. Can I ask you two more questions?

[B]

Okay, then fast, because I'm hungry.

[A]

Not hungry. I've got a can. I've got a. Okay. So what would you say to people in your position when you were younger and you were in a marriage.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you noticed you were attracted to your own sexual.

[B]

You know.

[A]

Would you. Any words of thoughts for someone who might be stuck in something and thinking, how do I do this? How would I ever start? What would you say to them? Not an easy one, I know.

[B]

No, it's really not an easy one, because nobody exists as a discrete human being without a context of people you are responsible for and you love and you care about and you have concerns about. I think really, I would wish anyone the best possible outcome for exploring what they want to explore. However, things don't always work out, and you can just do the best you can, but that also being afraid.

[C]

And.

[B]

Too nervous to take risks is not the way forward either. And in the end, I certainly hurt people. My eldest son said to me, at some point, so. And so explained to me, mom, that my problems, the problems I have are because of what you did. Well, you left us. And I did leave them for. Not straightforwardly. I always went back for a certain amount of time, but I did, and they've explained that to me. And I said, well, look, I'm willing to take the responsibility for what I did and to recognize whatever hurt I caused you, but I don't think it's particularly helpful for you to just take what she said and say, well, all my problems are because. Because I said, I don't believe that. I said, you get fucked up for a lot of different reasons, not just one. But, I mean, I have a very, very close relationship with my kids now, too. So.

[A]

In a sense, do you think it's worth it? You know, you make the leap and then you hope that time can sort things out.

[B]

You hope that time can, but also, I think you have to. You can't just jettison the people that you care about and you love. If you're trying to figure things out, you want to do what you can to possibly Salvage that.

[A]

Yeah. How old are your kids below When. When you told them that, they must.

[B]

Have been about 8 and 10 or 9 and 11. They were young, something like that.

[A]

Was that difficult to explain to them?

[B]

Oh, yeah. I must say that one of them said, who is he? And I said, it's not a man, it's a woman. And he said, oh, that's good. And I said, why is that? And he said, because you can't get married to her. Of course, now, that wouldn't hold true.

[A]

Oh, wow. But you've got a good relationship now with them?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I always did, but I know many women who left relationships that they were unhappy and very unhappy in and who had to struggle to get custody of their kids. Many. Which was very horrible and vicious and unpleasant and awful. And thankfully, that's. I think I know more and more younger people now where it's much more fluid and easy. Yes, I think in that sense. Unless all this bloody fascist stuff that's going on takes women and family and children backwards into time in terms of sexuality. That's better. How old are you?

[A]

I'm 39.

[B]

Okay. You're on the cusp of that. Sort of 40.

[A]

What do you remember about being forcing?

[B]

I love.

[A]

What should I do when I'm 40?

[B]

Well, just keep going, man. And also, no reason to hold yourself back from anything. You've got to where you are. Come this far, you can do what you want. 40s were a big, big decade for me. They were really great. The 50s were good. 60s were pretty fabulous. 70s weren't bad. 80s, that's the one that's bad. But it's not bad.

[A]

It's not as good.

[B]

It's like the proximity of death that makes it. I wouldn't say poignant, but it just makes it different.

[A]

Anything wild you're keen to do before the end?

[B]

What was wild? I've stopped doing some things, which is weird. At lockdown, I stopped drinking.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I was a real boozer.

[A]

Were you?

[B]

I loved my drink.

[A]

And you stopped. Why did you stop at lockdown?

[B]

I thought if I get Covid and I'm desperate for booze. And also, wouldn't it be a good thing to have a little rest, take some time off? I didn't think I was an alcoholic, but I did think I was sort of habituated. But it was so easy to stop. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, great. Oh, look, he's picking up the swan. They're helping it. Oh, wow. Oh, God. Well, that was a method. Chuck the swan over the fence. The swan didn't seem that bothered about being picked up. Weirdly, maybe that guy's done it before. He's a swan. He's a swan whisperer. That's the first swan I've seen picked up in a while. Yeah, that's a new one. Okay, okay, let's, let's finish. Thank you so much for talking to me.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

I've enjoyed it immensely.

[B]

Good.

[A]

And may you continue and flourish for as long as. As long as humanly possible.

[B]

Okay. And I just. Let me tell you one last thing.

[A]

Of course he can.

[B]

I'm in a. I don't have one of the bookmarks, but this is a little group I'm in now and History of Women's Liberation. Yeah, it's online, you can look it up. And it's called yeah, how History of Women's Library. And we're collecting the stories and experiences of women, hopefully all over the country who were part of that, not as well known activists. This is for women who were involved in a small group, you know, wherever, and to find out what will happen to them. And I love doing it.

[A]

Fantastic. Well, hopefully people might get in touch.

[B]

All they have to do is go to Howell. H o w l.uk.org yeah. You didn't know that I was gonna put a little.

[A]

No.

[B]

Why not?

[A]

This is the first plug we've had, but this is a. This is a legitimate good plug and we're all old. Oh, you're doing well. So there is one tiny, one more question. It all ends, always ends with the same question.

[B]

Yes. Yes.

[A]

What are you going to do next?

[B]

Do you mean next today or next in life?

[A]

Either or both. Whatever you want.

[B]

Next today I am going to make myself an absolutely delicious sandwich which will be piled with all kinds of lovely, luscious things to eat. I love food. I don't drink, I don't smoke, I wank. But you can't do that continuously and you can't live on wanks.

[A]

You cannot live on wanks. That's a very good point.

[B]

So that's what I will do. Next. But next in life I am working at getting going on some stuff. I am editing and hoping to persuade women to ride. And I want to get my flat in some kind of order. It threatens to overtake me.

[A]

Too much wanky. That's the problem.

[B]

I don't think so. And next after that, I want to see what's going on in the United States with traffic, Trump fucking ended. And I want to see this thing in Gaza stopped right away, please now, because this is a nightmare.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

And this is not what we all thought we were hopefully working for and could see happening in the world.

[A]

Well, good on you for your Saturday morning Women in Black.

[B]

Women in Black, yeah.

[A]

Thank you so much. Okay, you're finished.

[B]

I'm finished. But that was fun. Now I'm going to be in my dream. I'm going to be famous.

[A]

There you go. You're famous. It's done.

[C]

You said you give me 50 if I never smoked a cigarette. We took the matches to the woods Made a promise that we'd be there till the end Nancy, call the fire department. All in black we always want.

[B]

It'S.

[C]

Been a thousand years of us a revolution I know that she'll remember what we've done My love when you Holloway lets go of you Life will be rearranged for now in solitude Give me five moons maybe then I might Nancy, My child is disappointed But I've tried my best for peace and love.

[B]

It'S.

[C]

Been a thousand years of us in revolution and I know that he'll be proud of what we've done Bury me in the south Downs with the trees My friend she's there waiting for me.