EPISODE 64: A Letter To My Mum

Summary

Strangers on a Bench

Episode 64: A Letter To My Mum
Host: Tom Rosenthal
Date: December 1, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this moving and deeply personal episode, Tom Rosenthal sits on a sunny London bench with an anonymous guest who’s just settled down to write a letter to her late mother. Their conversation explores grief, the lasting impact of a parent, the role of friendship, and the search for healing after profound loss. The guest, a young social worker, provides raw and thoughtful insights on mourning, resilience, and finding comfort in life’s small joys—ranging from reality TV marathons to heartfelt family moments.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Getting Started: Favourite Days & Guilty Pleasures

• [00:52 – 03:01]
  • Tom opens with light questions to break the ice, asking about favorite days of the week and “best Saturdays.”
  • Guest admits loving Saturdays, wishing for a lie-in, and often binging on “Married at First Sight Australia.”

    “The Australians just give something that we don’t give up.” – B [01:52]

  • She jokes that the show taught her “how not to act in a relationship.”

On Relationships & Independence

• [03:01 – 04:25]
  • Guest is in a happy relationship, highlighting the value of friendship, support, and shared loyalty.
  • She stresses the importance of maintaining independence and cherishing close friendships even while partnered.

The Power of Friendship in Dark Times

• [04:25 – 05:19]
  • During recent hardships, she’s learned the greatest gift from friends is simply their presence and ability to listen.

    “My friends have just showed up even when I’m not really able to show up… they’ve just been there and that’s been really valuable to me.” – B [04:43]

Loss, Grieving, and the Letter

• [05:19 – 08:04]
  • Guest shares the loss of her mother four months earlier, which was both sudden and unexpected.
  • She visits the bench to remember her, inspired by wisteria her mother loved.

    “I bought my notebook, actually, because I think I was gonna write her a letter… a lot of things that in these past few months I’ve wanted to be able to say to her.” – B [05:54]

  • Wishes she had expressed more love and updates to her mother, like her sister passing her driving test.

Navigating Grief’s New Normal

• [08:04 – 10:54]
  • Tom relates through his own experience of losing his father.

    “It’s like one universe and another, isn’t it? I consider it a bit like you’re kind of born again in a way… you’re just a little one.” – A [08:17]

  • Guest describes being in “limbo,” struggling to accept the permanence of loss.
  • A poignant memory: her mum’s message, “Make sure you live your best life, my darling.”

On Time, Healing, & Building New Memories

• [10:54 – 13:01]
  • Discussion turns to how grief doesn’t have a fixed timeline or clear structure, unlike other life events.
  • Tom observes that dreams of lost loved ones are a comfort that may come in time.

Recalling the Day and First Weeks of Loss

• [12:42 – 16:41]
  • Guest recounts the immediate aftermath: sitting with her father and sister, realizing “we’re not a four anymore.”

    “I just remember thinking, what now? What now? Everything’s changed now forever.” – B [13:21]

  • The day after, she found herself immobilized, seeking comfort in old Disney movies, feeling a physical pain from grief.

On Coping: Below Deck, Distraction, and the Return to Work

• [16:41 – 18:59]
  • Details phases of distraction (e.g., binge-watching several seasons of “Below Deck”) and relating this to her continued struggle.
  • Prepares for her return to emotionally demanding work as a social worker with children and young people.

The Gift and Challenge of Empathy

• [19:56 – 21:44]
  • Tom observes that such grief can enhance empathy and presence, potentially making her even more impactful in her social work.

    “There’s an awareness and appreciation of life that you will now bring to that, which I think is quite special.” – A [19:50]

  • Guest notes her family has grown closer; has been comforted by connecting with her mother’s friends.

Cherished Memories & Keepsakes

• [22:40 – 27:32]
  • Her mother’s infectious laugh and sense of humor stand out, as do small acts like sneaking shopping treats for her kids.
  • Most treasured keepsake: a childhood postcard from her mother—

    “Remember always that you have a unique talent that no one else has. Love, Mummy.” – B [27:18]

  • Grateful she kept the note, despite usually not being a sentimental hoarder.

Who She Is: Identity Beyond Grief

• [27:53 – 31:17]
  • Guest describes herself as independent, empathetic; reveals her surprise career pivot from science to social work after lockdown reevaluation.
  • Social work has taught her about hidden struggles and the resilience in people.

The Joy and Pain of Helping Others

• [31:17 – 32:46]
  • Describes the emotional attachment to cases—bittersweet to say goodbye after transformative progress.
  • Acknowledges the challenge of following her own advice, even as she guides others toward change.

On Social Work and Future Goals

• [33:45 – 34:27]
  • Encourages others to consider social work for its transformative moments, though acknowledges its challenges.

    “…when you see those children or family members have this breakthrough… you just think, that’s why I’m doing this. It means everything.” – B [34:18]

Lightening the Mood: Hobbies, Nails, and Everyday Life

• [34:27 – 41:36]
  • Tom encourages finding a new hobby—suggestions include choir singing and fencing (the guest prefers nails, netball, and perhaps joining a choir).
  • Amusing discussion on the challenges of having long acrylic nails.

    “I do feel like it’s become part of my personality… I just kind of lost my personality when I lost my nails.” – B [37:23]

The Little Things: Surroundings, Approachable Nature, and Sunny Gardens

• [41:36 – 43:15]
  • Guest describes the tranquil garden setting and how it brings her peace and a feeling of closeness to her mother.
  • Tom reflects on her approachable demeanor and presence.

Quickfire & Lighthearted Questions

• [43:48 – 45:55]
  • Exchanges stories about weird things seen from windows, being approachable, pranking her boyfriend if she was invisible, and other playful scenarios.
  • Guest quips about boredom:

    “This podcast.” – B [45:03]

Closing Reflections: What’s Next

• [46:06 – 47:45]
  • Guest intends to finally write her letter to her mum, then see friends later. On a broader level, she’s focusing on taking things “day by day.”

    “If you’d said to me three, four months ago that I would have made it this far, I wouldn’t have seen how, but I’ve done it. So I’ve just got to take each day as it comes and see what happens.” – B [46:44]

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Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• On grief and moving forward:

  “I feel like I’m just in this, like limbo, but I’m not. Like, this is the new normal, but I just struggling to accept that this is the new normal.” – B [08:33]

• On empathy after loss:

  “You will now bring to that [your work]… an extra level of empathy and humanity.” – A [20:11]

• On keepsakes and memories:

  “It says, remember always that you have a unique talent that no one else has. Love, Mummy.” – B [27:18]

• On friendship:

  “My friends have just showed up even when I’m not really able to show up.” – B [04:43]

• On living with loss:

  “There was one day at the end, but that was just the last day… We shouldn’t let it overshadow so many days of good life.” – A [26:18]

• On being honest about grief’s aftermath:

  “I remember sitting there googling quite a lot. Why can’t I cry? The tears have come and come and come since then, believe me.” – B [14:49]

• On daily endurance:

  “I don’t know what the hell I’m gonna do next in a big way, but just getting through day by day at the moment.” – B [46:37]

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Important Timestamps

• [05:19] — Guest discusses her mother’s death and coming to the bench to remember her.
• [13:21] — Describes the first family moment after loss.
• [27:18] — Shares the content of the childhood postcard from her mother.
• [34:18] — Explains what makes social work worthwhile.
• [46:44] — Reflects on “just taking each day as it comes.”

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Tone & Language

The conversation strikes a balance between sorrow and hope, depth and gentle humor. Rosenthal’s warmth and empathy sets the tone, while the guest’s openness offers listeners a rare, vulnerable window into grief and the enduring love between parent and child. Their exchange is naturally flowing, filled with honest, unfiltered reflections, everyday details, and a few playful asides.

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Closing & Song

The episode closes with a poignant musical interlude (Tom’s own song), echoing themes of resilience, memory, and hope, followed by the guest preparing to write her letter as a gentle next step forward.

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Transcript

[A]

Hello. Sorry to bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench, where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a go? Right, we're on. Will she regret it? That's the big question.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Don't be scared. Honestly, it's just two humans on a bench talking. That's all it is. So, yeah, the first question you can't get this wrong, is a really easy starter. Do you have a favourite day of the week?

[B]

I mean, Saturday, probably everyone's favourite day of the week. Yeah.

[A]

What for you is like a really great Saturday on this funny planet that we both share?

[B]

I would try to have a lion and it wouldn't happen.

[A]

Why?

[B]

Because obviously when you have to wake up for work on a weekday.

[A]

Oh, you're programmed.

[B]

I just really struggle to wake up and then it gets to a Saturday and I would be beaming awake by like 6 or 7am you can't just.

[A]

Imagine it's another workday.

[B]

No, it doesn't work. And then what would I do? Just laze around for a while, watch some reality tv.

[A]

What's your favorite one?

[B]

The absolute go to is Married at First Sight Australia, I would say.

[A]

What is this? What is it about these Australians?

[B]

The Australians just give something that we don't give up.

[A]

What have you learned from Married at First Sight Australia?

[B]

How not to act in a relationship. Everything not to do, basically.

[A]

Quite handy. Have you implemented this? These things successfully?

[B]

So far, so good. My relationship's going okay.

[A]

So there we go. That is the ineffective. What are the key things not to do in a relationship then? Don't be Australian.

[B]

Don't be toxic. Don't be toxic.

[A]

Just don't be toxic. Ideally, it's a good start.

[B]

It's a good start.

[A]

So you're in a relationship?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. What's it like being in a relationship?

[B]

It's really good. Yeah.

[A]

What do you get from it? Sell it to me.

[B]

What do you get from it? Friendship, love, comfort. Someone there for you, someone on your side all the time. And you get to give that to someone as well.

[A]

Does sound quite compelling. I should give this a go.

[B]

Oh, go on, let's make your hinge profile.

[A]

What are the downsides?

[B]

Do you want to go?

[A]

I was kind of pointing the question towards you. Ideally, there must be some one annoying thing about this person you're with. Can you name one?

[B]

No, of course I can't.

[A]

Why not? Not like a terrible thing, but it's like, oh, they don't wash the bowls properly. Do you live with this person?

[B]

No.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

So I've got to learn. That's the issue.

[A]

So for now it's just all sweetness.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What are you, like, away from this person that you're not with them?

[B]

What do you mean?

[A]

As in, what side of yourself are you nourishing away from them? Does that make any sense?

[B]

Sort of. Kinda. I'm not sure.

[A]

I don't know if there's like a different sides to you that come out when you're not together.

[B]

Yeah, I know what you mean. I am quite an independent person. I like, value having my own space and time and same for my partner. And also friends are so important, aren't they? Because your friends are the ones that are always there for you.

[A]

Can you think of the most important act a friend has done for you?

[B]

Just listen.

[A]

You've got a good thinking face. Like real genuine focus there. That's like quite a fierce focus. Anyway, sorry, back to you.

[B]

Just listened. I've been going through a really difficult time recently and my friends have just showed up even when I'm not really able to show up, even when I don't really feel like I'm able to talk or express myself. They've just been there and that's been really valuable SME.

[A]

It's amazing that, like, just being a presence so often is enough. Like you don't need to have the right words or like the exact perfect thing to say.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Can I ask you at all about what the Tuftha relates to?

[B]

You can ask, yeah. My mum passed away four months ago today, actually, kind of unexpectedly. She had cancer, but the cancer wasn't terminal. We weren't expecting to lose her, but she had some treatment and caught pneumonia and deteriorated quite quickly. So, yeah, I was present when. When she passed away. And it's just been a very, very difficult time since then.

[A]

Oh, I'm so sorry to hear.

[B]

Thank you. And I like to come to this space. You caught me just as I'd sat down, actually, because I like. Although this wasn't somewhere that I used to come with her, I like to come to this space to think about her. She used to love when the wisteria came out in spring and there's a wisteria over there and I sort of just look at it and think about her. And I bought my notebook, actually, because I think I was gonna write her a letter. There's a lot of things that in these past few Months I've wanted to be able to say to her. I haven't been able to.

[A]

What do you want to say to her?

[B]

How much I miss her, how much I love her. How much I wish I'd told her that more before she left. Just to update her. What's been going on in my life. Although to be honest, not very much has been going on in my life because I've not been doing very well. But, you know, even the little things like my sister passed her driving test recently and she'd tried so many times before and failed. And it's just things like that that I wish we could tell my mum.

[A]

Start the letter home. Mum. Not much has happened but I thought I'd keep you up today.

[B]

Yeah, so it's been difficult. It's been difficult because I've never been through anything like this before. I've never felt so low. But if I was struggling with anything, she's probably the one person that I would have gone to over everyone and she's the one person that I can't go to. So that's, you know, it's been a massive, massive hole in my life.

[A]

There's nothing like it. I mean, my dad's dead.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But yeah, there's nothing like it in terms of, you know, just. It's like one universe and another, isn't it? I consider it a bit like you're kind of born again in a way, you know, and so you're just a little one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're only four months old, you know, like. And that's really tough, just stumbling around a little four month old trying to figure it out and listen to these emotions and how do you process them all?

[B]

It is, it's really hard. I feel like I'm just in this, like limbo, but I'm not. Like, this is the new normal, but I just struggling to accept that this is the new normal. And it's like I'm waiting for something to be over that isn't going to be over because she's gone and that just is my reality now.

[A]

How do you. It's a big question to ask quite early on, but, like, how do you want to keep her alive? Guessing that you do. It sounds like you do. So how do you want to do that?

[B]

It's hard right now, it is really hard. But I just remember a message my mum sent me maybe a few months before she passed away. She said, make sure you live your best life, my darling. Not that I am doing that right now, but I hope that one day I can get to a point where I can do that for her because I. That's what she would want me to be doing. And I just think a lot of the best things about me came from my mom.

[A]

I think I should have enough.

[B]

So.

[A]

By the way, you'll definitely get there.

[B]

Thank you. It's hard. I'm trying.

[A]

It's just really slow. I think we're used to in life, like we live in a world now where we know exactly how long everything takes, you know. Yeah. You do a driving test while you learn for this amount of time then you hopefully. But you know, unless you're my sister.

[B]

She'S done it now.

[A]

How many times has she. How many.

[B]

I think it was. Have first.

[A]

Oh, well, it's quite good, I think.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just think it's just. It's one of the only things in life that has no clear line, you know, and that's very complicated for humans to deal with. We like things that we understand, we like structures, we like certainty. And it's like the opposite of that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Obviously you just set out on a kind of never ending journey.

[B]

Yay. Yeah.

[A]

And that's. And that's quite a lot to begin with.

[B]

I know it's so hard. It's something that everyone is going to go through at some point but no one knows how to figure it out. And it's just so unpredictable. I can't, I don't think I can describe it as ups and downs, maybe flaps and downs. It's just so hard to predict when those wave of emotions are going to hit.

[A]

Oh, I was gonna say this. Sorry. A great moment when it happens. Maybe it's happened already, but when they start appearing in your dreams.

[B]

No, I haven't had that. Yeah, my sister said she's had that quite a lot. I haven't.

[A]

But it will happen. It will definitely happen. And sometimes I think, you know, when it does happen, you're like, maybe that's a moment when they're like ready to show themselves in this different, different world to you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That they're able to appear in dreams. They're not saying anything important. You know, I haven't got any vital message. They're just around like they were around in that kind of normal way before.

[B]

Yeah, I want to. You know, I'm hoping to get to that point. I'm struggling at the moment because the, the memories of the day my mum passed away are sort of. I'm still at that stage where they're really like overshadowing all the positive memories.

[A]

The Good news is, I think there'll be so many good memories that, like, there'll be an unstoppable force at some point. They'll come surging. When they come, how do you feel about being asked about the day? Or do you rather just talk about memories? I should let you decide.

[B]

You can ask me about the day.

[A]

Do you have a kind of moment that stood out for you that was kind of. Not necessarily the key moment, A memory of something that is sticking with you that for whatever reason, you can't quite shake?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, that's obviously, like you said, the key ones of when it happened, which come into my head a lot. But the other one that keeps coming back to me was my mum, was. She was in hospital, not where my family lives. So in the couple of weeks that her health was really deteriorating, we were sort of moving between hotel rooms and Airbnbs. And the memory that keeps coming to me, like I say, is when we got back from the hospital that day, we'd lost my mum and it was my dad, my sister and me sat on the sofa and my dad sort of not knowing what to do about dinner and sort of fretting about that and just that feeling that I had in that moment of. I don't know how to describe it, of like, that's it now. That's us. She's not here anymore. Anymore. It's just like us three is. We're not a four anymore. Like, what now? I just remember thinking, what now? What now? Everything's changed now forever.

[A]

Oh, I totally sympathize. Yeah. And I think, funny how these are moments we don't talk about probably enough. Like, people just think about, like the precise moments, someone dying, whatever. But sometimes, actually that's not when it stuff hits you at all.

[B]

So I remember that day so vividly. I remember the next day so vividly. And then I can barely remember anything for about a month after that. Feel like I was in a daze. I'd feel like things weren't real. I remember sitting there googling quite a lot. Why can't I cry? The tears have come and come and come since then, believe me. But that whole sort of month or so after was just a complete blur.

[A]

What was that next day like then, the one you can remember after?

[B]

I mean, I didn't move, didn't move. I didn't move from the sofa in the apartment we were staying in all day. It must be some kind of nostalgia thing, because I don't even really normally do this, but I use my sister's Disney plus. And I was watching all the old Disney movies like Aladdin and Mulan. And I'm not a massive, like adult Disney fanatic or anything. And maybe it was a sort of comfort but blanket thing. I just remember this pain in my chest. It felt like I just been stabbed in the chest over and over and over again.

[A]

You think there's something in going back to these Disney movies, Just desperately trying to get back to a point in your life when none of this would have happened? Potentially, yeah, maybe.

[B]

Maybe.

[A]

Actually quite interesting information if you could know exactly what people watch after someone's just died. Yeah, that's the kind of information that they'll never be able to know, but actually be the most interesting ones.

[B]

I had to do. I've had a lot of phases since my mum passed away. The Disney movies were straight away. And then I went through a below deck phase. Below deck. I must have watched. 15 to 20 seasons of it back to back.

[A]

How many seasons have it got?

[B]

I watched nine seasons of Below Deck Mediterranean and then five seasons of Below Deck Sailing Yachts. So what's that? 14? Then I watched three seasons of Ballet Deck Down Under 17 and then about four seasons of the normal below deck. And then I got to a point where I was like, I can't. I can't do this anymore.

[A]

You're decked out?

[B]

Yeah, I walked the plankton, jumped. I wasn't sleeping at the time, though. And this was in. In that shock phase. I don't think I'll ever be able to watch a blowjack again.

[A]

Yeah, I can see why. So now, four months in, where would you place yourself now?

[B]

I'm still struggling quite a lot. I'm not at work yet, as you can see, because it's a Thursday and I'm on a bench. I'm actually due back to work next week.

[A]

Do you enjoy your work?

[B]

I do enjoy my work, but it's very emotionally demanding.

[A]

Okay. Oh, so that's not ideal.

[B]

Yeah, I think it will be challenging. It's not an easy job. It takes a lot out of you. And I haven't had very much to give over the past few months.

[A]

So can I ask what it is social work with what kind of group of people?

[B]

With children and young people.

[A]

Sounds like it'd be distracting.

[B]

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely.

[A]

You'll have that. I do think you kind of obviously deaf. No, bigger negative.

[B]

Right.

[A]

We've got that in the tank. But as many positives you can take out of it, I think one should always cling on to them. One for me is like, I think, increased levels of empathy. If you think of life as, like, completing a picture of understanding of the experiences that people can go through, you know, now you've got that in you, and you can look at people and help them, even if they haven't gone through that. There's an awareness and appreciation of life that you will now bring to that, which I think is, like, quite special. You know, there's something to that and just like, the appreciation. I remember after my dad died, I remember coming back and kind of seeing friends and stuff, and I was like, look, you're just so alive. So. Well, like, I was noticing how alive and healthy and with it, someone was who I was talking to and just appreciating that.

[B]

Yeah, it's a really nice way to think about it, actually.

[A]

Yeah. I think it's got a clean.

[B]

I mean, anything down in the dump and don't get to see it a.

[A]

Lot of the time, but I think, like, you know, you'll be able to touch people more than you have previously, like, and that's deeply painful for you, but it's a tool that can be used. And you happen to be in an amazing job where you're trying to help people, which is really nice.

[B]

No, I think you're right. These, obviously, these children and young people and families I work with, of them have been through so much and so much that the professionals working with them wouldn't ever be able to understand. And that's not to say that now I will be able to understand everything they've been through. Of course. Of course not. But it is, I guess, like you said, an extra sort of layer of empathy and humanity and.

[A]

Any other positives of.

[B]

Duh.

[A]

Yeah, no, we got. I feel like we could go probably more than one. Maybe that was two.

[B]

Okay, we can do this.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

I think.

[A]

I've got one.

[B]

Go on.

[A]

But I don't want to interrupt your thought.

[B]

No, no, no, no, Go.

[A]

Because I'm still thinking just that awareness that, like, everything's bollocks, you know what I mean? So they say. Like, I think that's actually really quite handy. I think especially in that in that time after someone's died where you're like, well, that doesn't matter, like, whatever, you know. Yeah, that's just like nothing. But then actually, sometimes it is annoying for the people who have small problems and you're trying to be the cynic.

[B]

Oh, shit. I guess what I was thinking was just the closeness of other relationships and bringing you closer to people.

[A]

That's a really good one.

[B]

Like my dad, my sister and I are probably closer than we ever were before.

[A]

That's a good one. That is a good one.

[B]

I've been speaking to some of my mum's friends which is lovely and that's been really lovely actually because most of the people around me here, my friends and partner, they don't really know my mum and to be able to have those conversations with my mum's friends, people that did know her and really love her, has been lovely and it's sort of bringing the grieving people together.

[A]

What are your kind of little memories of your mum that stick with you when you think of her?

[B]

Her laugh was really funny. She used to laugh till she like would be physically crying and like bless her, you know when like someone's just sort of the butt of family jokes but takes it in their stride. That was very much her. And just like yeah, those sorts of memories, just going and doing things with her. She used to, when I was a teenager take me out on shopping trips and I can't remember exactly what she was doing but somehow sort of like either siphoning money out of my parents joint account or doing something so that my dad didn't know what she was spending it on because my dad wouldn't have been happy at all the things that she was buying but she didn't grow up with very much and so she didn't want us to have the same experience that she did. And I can't remember what she was doing to like swindle their finances or hide it from him. But yeah, just like moments like that.

[A]

Is there one particular photo of her that means more to you than any other?

[B]

Would you want to see her?

[A]

I'd love to see her.

[B]

There's a few I don't remember my phone. I mean there's one that we put up in our hospital room and it's the four of us from last Christmas. I'm just trying to find all my pictures of her. One sec.

[A]

What do you remember of that? Of that Christmas, the last Christmas you were together?

[B]

It was really good actually. It was the best one that we'd had in a while. My sister seemed to have Covid every single year at Christmas. My dad caught covered off my sister one year. I remember one of those Christmases I just made the dinner and was just kind of sat there with three sick people. But she seemed a lot, a lot brighter. Here's the photos but where's the family one? Here we go.

[A]

Oh, it's a lovely photo. Oh she looks wonderful. She looks so bright in that photo.

[B]

I'm just very grateful that we got to spend that last, that last Christmas with her.

[A]

Oh, thank you for showing me that. That's a wonderful picture. Get it printed.

[B]

I should print it out.

[A]

I think it's really important to see a happy version of someone. You're quite like this. When my dad died, his wife, who I'm very close to, one of my favorite people in the world, she just wanted one photo of him that she knew. I had like a newspaper clipping because he was a long jumper when he was younger and like he, he kind of, he represented Australia kind of nationally almost as an Olympia, but not quite. But anyway, point being, if for some reason I had a clipping of him doing long, like a long jump, like, like an action shot.

[B]

Incredible.

[A]

And she wanted something of him in full flight, in full life. Especially when you're trying to not get rid of, but you're trying to move beyond that awful moment of, of. Of them going, I think you're only really. I think you're only like you do just die once. And obviously it's such a headline grabber, you know, it's so dramatic.

[B]

I know everyone's attention, you know, I mean, 367.

[A]

Okay, 67 times. 360. Whatever. Thousands and thousands and thousands of days. Right. Of which so much is pure life. And there was one day at the end, but that was just the last day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it just. We shouldn't let it like overshadow so many days of good life, eh? That's the nature of trauma though.

[B]

I know. I'm hoping you will get to that at one point. Yeah, that's a really nice idea though. I don't have a photo of her up. I'm not a memory, like a keepsakes person. I love throwing things away.

[A]

Good on you. It's important. It is a good feeling though.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So going down the tip. No bad feeling, eh?

[B]

So all my things like from my childhood I've thrown away but I kept. And I don't know why I kept it, but I'm glad I kept it. This postcard that she wrote me once, I think she'd put it in my lunchbox when I was at primary school and it says, remember always that you have a unique talent that no one else has. Love, Mummy.

[A]

Well, that's so true.

[B]

Yeah. I'm still trying to find what the talent is.

[A]

Were you right, Mom? I'm still not sure. I'm still not sure. Oh, it's definitely.

[B]

But yeah, I'm very glad I did keep it.

[A]

We've done a lot about your mum. Yes, rightly so. I kind of want to know a bit more about you.

[B]

What would you like to know?

[A]

Who are you when people aren't looking at you when you're alone?

[B]

Someone who lies down horizontally and watches reality tv.

[A]

Yeah, that's good. That's a really good answer. I can't argue with that.

[B]

I don't know. It's harder to answer questions about yourself, isn't it?

[A]

Yeah, isn't it? Let's find different ways around this. So let's learn some things about you. We know you like chucking stuff out. We know you have friends. We know that you're empathetic because otherwise you wouldn't do the job you do. Can you think of when these things kind of developed in you? Was there a moment you kind of grew into yourself as a human?

[B]

I think it's still happening. I haven't always been a social worker. I started four years ago, so I went to university, did something completely other end of the spectrum to social work. I couldn't have ever worked in. It just wasn't me.

[A]

At what point did you realize that.

[B]

Probably while doing it we'd have to do labs, we'd have like do practicals. And I was terrible. The theory.

[A]

So what was this going to be? Oh, okay.

[B]

So I like the theory. I found it interesting. But I'm not suited to a lab environment. If you put a microscope in front of me now, I wouldn't know how to use it after a three, you.

[A]

Probably check it out.

[B]

So I'd never worked in that field and I just went through jobs after uni, not really like having any idea what I wanted to do. It was just like jobs. And it got to the classic lockdown and everyone re evaluating their lives. And I didn't have a job at the time and then had pretty much a year just having to sit and think about what the hell I was meant to do with myself. And that's when I sort of started to do a bit more like volunteering and eventually got a job as a support worker and landed on training to become a social worker.

[A]

Amazing. What has being a social worker taught you about the world? Nice easy question there.

[B]

It's taught me that people struggle a lot more behind closed doors than I maybe initially realized. There are people that have just been through some of the most challenging experiences and yet are so resilient. It's shown me how resilient people are and it taught me to Always believe that people are capable of changing. It's taught me to believe in people more. It's taught me not to judge people so much. Yeah. To identify the strengths in people. Believe that they can do it.

[A]

Such a good answer. Absolutely. Smashed out of the park.

[B]

Thanks.

[A]

Yeah. You must be really good at it. I love that instinct that people can make changes.

[B]

Yeah. And they've probably been in a lot of situations that make them feel like they can't do it or sort of have people around them that don't believe in them or try to tell them what to do. It's really believing that people have the capability to do things in themselves and being there to support them.

[A]

Can you obviously, don't mention any names, but can you think of a particular case or situation you've dealt with which has stayed with you in a positive way?

[B]

Yeah. A couple of young people that I've worked with that have experienced some quite significant exploitation, gang exploitation, criminal exploitation, and have got to the point where they've been really able to turn things around for their futures. And that's been really incredible to see.

[A]

Are you able to kind of stay in touch? Is it tough to, like, help people and then just wave them on their way?

[B]

And it's hard. It's bittersweet because you do come to really care about these people and become invested in them, invested in their futures. And it is really sad to say goodbye, but also, generally, you're saying bye because things have improved to an extent that they don't need you to be interfering in their lives anymore. So, yeah, it's bittersweet. I do bump into people sometimes family members, and they've been like, oh, this is how things are going now and stuff. And so that's nice to hear how well they're doing.

[A]

Do you feel like it's one of those ones where we are very good sometimes at guiding other people, but it's not so easy since to guide ourselves.

[B]

It's impossible to follow your own advice.

[A]

It's a funny thought, isn't it? People think for a moment, well, look at her, she's doing this. Surely she's got this covered for herself. But it's just not the same, is it?

[B]

It's just. It is impossible to follow your own advice. And B, we can be our own sort of worst critics, can't we?

[A]

Maybe it's quite good that way because maybe it stops anyone from being too wise.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You wouldn't want anyone to be too wise. It'd just be gross. Yeah.

[B]

Knocking down a peg. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Exactly. Like, it's good that people don't have everything sorted, even if they're really good at sorting other people's stuff. What would you say to anyone if someone was listening to this? They're thinking what to do in their life. What would you say about social work to encourage them?

[B]

That's a big question.

[A]

That's what we're here for.

[B]

I'm going to have to be upfront and say it is a very difficult job. It's a very demanding job and it. It takes a lot out of you. You give a lot. And I have had times where I have thought, why am I doing this? And then you have those moments. You see those children or parents or family members have this breakthrough and achieve something that really, really transforms their lives and their situation. And in those moments you just think, that's why I'm doing this. It means everything.

[A]

Again, very good answer. Anything you're keen to try that you haven't done. Fencing.

[B]

Well, not fencing in particular, but I want. I want a hobby.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

What hobby's gonna be? I don't have anything against it, you know, I've just never crossed my mind to try it.

[A]

Maybe it's destiny. How can we find your hobby? Let's figure what it could be. Do you like physical things or do you prefer mental things?

[B]

Both.

[A]

Okay. Chess, Boxing.

[B]

Oh, dear, the obvious. Mental. I choose mental. I talk myself out a lot of things, but I think I just need to try things and see what I like doing. I know. I love playing that ball. Okay. But I can see my nails.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, I can see. Can you describe your nails? Because this is. This is audio.

[B]

They're long, pointed and acrylic.

[A]

They're pretty serious.

[B]

And you are not allowed to have any type of nails when you play netball, so so far I've chosen nails over netball.

[A]

Nails over netball. Classic. I've actually played netball.

[B]

Have you?

[A]

Quite recently.

[B]

What position did you play?

[A]

I played wing attack. And the one that's not like the furthest back defender, but the one, the second goal defence.

[B]

That's what I used to play.

[A]

That was me for a minute. My daughter's school.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Had like a. Parents come and play netball against parents.

[B]

I thought you'd say you got drafted for your daughter's team, dashing all these 8 year olds out the way.

[A]

Yeah, she was desperate for me to do it anyway. So. Nails are a problem. You like your nails?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, truth. Obviously you must just. I mean, this is such a boring question, but you must just like catch them on Stuff. No.

[B]

Yeah. There's a lot of things that they're helpful for.

[A]

Tell me that.

[B]

So, like, if I'm flipping something in a frying pan, I don't need tongs because I.

[A]

So good. So good.

[B]

And then there's a lot of things I struggle to do. Like I can't open a can.

[A]

You know, twigs around about.

[B]

Toilet flushes, the ones that you push down like that. I can't fit my finger into them, so I have to press, like, my knuckle in. You know, you learn to adapt or you will get other people to do things for you if you can't do them.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I'm not getting people to flush the toilet for me, but.

[A]

Oh, wow. But. So there's quite a lot of hindrances there.

[B]

I told you you could flip things in a frying pan.

[A]

Yeah, go for it.

[B]

I could itch the inside of my ear very well.

[A]

Oh, that's a good shout. That is a good shout. But I mean, like. So what is it? Like, what is it? Without being too deep about this, but, like, what does it bring you? Like, can you try and describe it?

[B]

Yeah, I do feel like it's become part of my personality because I said this in lockdown when I had to have my nails off. I just kind of lost my personality when I lost my nails.

[A]

Why did you have to have them off?

[B]

Snail shops weren't open.

[A]

Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. So it's, like part of you. Yeah, that's fair.

[B]

It's something that people always notice about me as well, I guess.

[A]

You're sure you're not doing it for other people? You're definitely doing it for yourself?

[B]

Definitely doing it for myself. So my partners, he doesn't say he doesn't like them, but he's like, can you just get them?

[A]

How does it work? Not to be too, you know, ask too intimate questions here, but, like, how does it work?

[B]

Look, your face.

[A]

Your face, your face. Like. No, don't worry. Don't worry. It's not an X ray question. That's definitely a PG question. Like, physical touch.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is it impacted at all?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I do just, like, scratch accidentally. Like, I scratch it. It's when I first get them done, they're very sharp.

[A]

So how. So boyfriend does get scratched now and again?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But so do I.

[A]

I love it. Somebody's like, oh, you scratch me. Well, I get scratched as well, so whatever we're eating for.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

This is the longest I've talked about nails.

[B]

Yeah, well, you know, you're gonna have Something to take that to your daughter.

[A]

No, really, it's quite profound. So, yeah, you could be a nail. That could be a hobby. Although I feel like it's in this big new moment of your life. It feels like a new thing. No, it feels like you or something a bit out. Out of your normal realm.

[B]

Should we come up with the first thing? I'm gonna try.

[A]

We should come up now with the first thing. Yeah. Do you like dancing?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not hugely. Do you like singing? There's not a choir we're rolling out.

[B]

I love singing. I'm terrible.

[A]

Well, that's. You can. You know, that's the beauty of a choir. You don't have to be like. You don't have to be incredible. You just blend in or try and. Does that work?

[B]

It could. I'm not. I'm not convinced.

[A]

I mean. Can I say something about quiet? They're so good. And I really think. Yeah, a few. And. Yeah. Just. It just feels so good when it works. Like. It's an incredible feeling. Just really special. It ticks so many boxes. You're getting something out of yourself, like emotionally. It's like teamwork.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is really important as well.

[B]

And there'll be some people in the choir that sound good. So overall it might sound good even though it's not.

[A]

That's the beauty. As long as most people sound all right, the. The collective sound will dominate.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you're never. If there's enough people. You're never going to ruin it. Like 100. Not going to ruin it. But. Why don't you try it?

[B]

I'll have a look.

[A]

It's like, spiritually, I can't imagine a much better thing to do, in my opinion.

[B]

I'm going to have a look.

[A]

Maybe that's. Maybe that's the one to try. I'll have that. Or fencing. Maybe one another. What else haven't we asked you? Maybe. Maybe we'll ask you three more questions. I'll leave you alone.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

See, it hasn't been too bad.

[B]

It hasn't.

[A]

You survived.

[B]

I know. I've lived to tell the tale.

[A]

Can you describe without saying where we are, what we can see in front of us and how that makes you feel?

[B]

We're in a sort of walled flower garden, sat on a bench, looking out at all the different flowers. It's a really lovely sunny afternoon. Unfortunately, although I do have a biology degree, I'm not going to be able to name much of the botany in front of us. To describe.

[A]

That's okay.

[B]

But there's flowers of different colors. So I can mainly see lots of purple, yellow and green in front of us. There's a butterfly that just flew past some bees right behind me, which I keep leading away from. And it makes me feel peaceful when I come here, as I kind of mentioned earlier, it's somewhere I like to come and think about my mum and feel close to. To my mum.

[A]

Beautiful. For some reason, as you're saying that, I was thinking, what am I going to ask next? And what I came up with was, what's the weirdest thing you've seen out of your. Your window, of your bedroom window at home, or any window from your house? What's the strangest thing you've seen?

[B]

There's lots happening where I live, let's just say without me saying where I live now for a dull day. One that's coming to mind is I was working from home one day at the dining table and this man sort of came and put his bags down in the road and set up shop to just come and stare at me and shout for the whole afternoon.

[A]

Oh, sorry, in the middle of the road?

[B]

Yeah, Sort of on the edge of the pavement. Yeah. But the thing that sort of was memorable about it was the minute that I logged off for the day and shut my laptop, he just picked up his bags and went on his way.

[A]

So good.

[B]

His job, well, well done.

[A]

He didn't want you to work.

[B]

He was sent to you, actually. Yeah.

[A]

He didn't want you to go through it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do people generally shout at you? Are you a shout of that person?

[B]

I'm generally quite an approached person, as we've seen.

[A]

Oh, here we go. I'm just joining in. What do you think it is about you that makes you approachable?

[B]

I don't know. My boyfriend says you just give off that aura, like people do just come up to you. People just come up to and talk to me in the street and he's.

[A]

Like, what is it about that you have quite a kind of open, generous face, you know what I mean? I think your face is quite like. This is a weird thing to say about someone's face, but quite kind of present. It's like very much there. So interesting.

[B]

Yeah, kind of.

[A]

It's like. Kind of. It's like. It's like it's kind of ready and reaching for stuff just before it's even started, you know, it's like that's the misery of great.

[B]

Is it why I targeted.

[A]

That's probably why. Okay, what's a good pronouncement question? Something feel there's got to be something random. Have you ever been stuck anywhere?

[B]

I. I don't think I have been stuck anywhere. No, not that I can think of. Sorry, but we're just pointing answer to the question.

[A]

We got to have to. We got to get. We got to get a grip and answer a question. I got to keep going until I find a goodbye. Have you ever had a funny moment with a rat?

[B]

A funny moment with a rat? No. I've seen a rat in here recently, though.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

So the funny moment might come.

[A]

You're going to pop up now. Did you ever have an imaginary friend? No.

[B]

No.

[A]

Still time.

[B]

Not that I can remember. Yeah. Dream.

[A]

Are you my imaginary friend? I am your imaginary friend. Well, look, you can imagine I was imaginary if you want.

[B]

I could. Yeah.

[A]

That's up to you. What is the most boring. Can you think of a really boring situation in recent years? You thought this is really boring.

[B]

This podcast.

[A]

That was an open goal. That was an open goal. That was too easy. I set that up. The perfect pass.

[B]

Yeah. Sorry. I'm struggling to think of anything. We're not getting very well through this.

[A]

We need this to ask me a question. Any. Any. If you could be invisible.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

In a day, what would you do?

[B]

Good question. Spend the whole day pranking my boyfriend.

[A]

The whole day you're just ground you're grinding down into by the end of.

[B]

The day, just moving things around the room as he goes to get it. Just move it over there.

[A]

Unrelen do. He'd just be like on the floor by the end.

[B]

Like. No. Robbing a bank. No. Like doing anything to better my future. Just prank him the whole day.

[A]

That's fair. Well, thank you so much for talking to me. I've really enjoyed it.

[B]

So have I. It's been nice to meet you.

[A]

You ready for the last question? So you can either answer it in a. A big way or at a day wait, or both. Totally up to you. What are you going to do next?

[B]

I'm going to, as I mentioned at the start, write something to my mum about how I've been doing the last few months. And then I'm going to see some of my friends later. I don't know what the hell I'm gonna do next in a big way, but just getting through day by day at the moment. And something I was thinking recently was if you'd say said to me three, four months ago that I would have made it this far, I wouldn't have seen how, but I've done it. So I've just got to take each day as it comes and see what happens.

[A]

And I hope each day brings new memories and new gentle progressions, Whatever that made it look like.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

And good luck.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Especially with the fencing and the quiet.

[B]

You might see me at the Olympics.

[A]

That would be a good story.

[C]

Be sure to ride the weight the light the clouds as they come and and go I wanna. Be sure to write the stay the fight the glow on your bedroom wall I want. May you learn to notice when I'm gone the strength in those you love the voice behind the song May you live in boldness as you try with strength for those you love and grace to pass the time and please be sure to write the walk, the flight the lines on the door each year I want to hear. Be sure to write the warm, the light and all you will come to be I wanna see. May you learn to notice when I'm gone and flowers bloomin wide in autumn coming on How I'll be there when winter comes to call and arms open and wide and summer sun and all but still be sure to write.

[B]

Sam.