EPISODE 66: Truth Puddle

Summary

Strangers on a Bench

EPISODE 66: Truth Puddle

Host: Tom Rosenthal
Date: December 15, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode of "Strangers on a Bench," Tom Rosenthal sits down with an anonymous visitor on a park bench for a candid, deeply intimate conversation about unpredictability, self-perception, coping with loss, the passage of time, childhood wounds, and the objects we carry through life. The discussion explores vulnerability, the value of openness, and the comfort and struggle of solitude. The episode's title, "Truth Puddle," becomes a metaphor for seeing oneself as one truly is, free from the distortions and expectations of the world.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Allure of Friday & Life’s Unpredictability

• [00:49] The guest identifies Friday as their favorite day, symbolizing the start of possibility and surprise:

  "It could be surprise stuff going from Friday onwards. Whereas Monday to Friday feels quite predictable."

• They note being open to surprises and 'not knowing what to expect' as a personal strength.

2. Exploring How People Really Feel & Anxiety

• [02:16] Tom probes what people really feel but don’t say.

  "[People feel] just doing something wrong. Saying something wrong or something unacceptable."

• Guest reflects on their own professional life as a therapist:

  "My work is therapy, so I work with people, so I know that I know nothing about people." ([02:30])

3. Complicated Thoughts & Self-Doubt

• [03:17] Guest shares their own "crippling thoughts":

  "Sometimes I'm not good enough. Or sometimes I'm not attractive enough. Or I might get rejected... Or sometimes I get scared of death."

• They acknowledge self-consciousness even in the context of this interview.

4. Creative Release & Dancing as Freedom

• Creative ideas get channeled into work, clothes, home, and especially dance.

  "I was dancing last night... That is when my brain is off the leash." ([04:57])

• Describes the freedom of club music and 'letting the body drive' as a rare release from overthinking ([05:00]-[06:15]).

5. Aging, Loss, and Parental Death

• Discussion shifts to aging and the impact of parents' deaths.

  "After losing my parents, whatever delusions I had about living forever vanished when they died." ([07:55])

• Describes the sudden death of the father and the mother's slow decline as "hell" ([09:32]-[10:05]).

• Moving reflection on seeing her father’s body:

  "It was like, this can't be happening... His eyes were so open and so blue. And I could still smell his lunch." ([10:59])

6. Coping Through Philosophy & Taoism

• Guest finds some comfort in "Chinese cultural wisdom" and Taoism after becoming orphaned.

  "Just engaging with my own life more. Being orphaned, being an orphan." ([13:14]-[13:45])

• Taoism leads to greater acceptance of change and curiosity about aging and transformation.

7. Self-Image, Aging Face, and Mirrors

• The experience of looking in the mirror (or puddles):

  "I think puddles are more truthful." ([15:33])

• Grapples with changes in self-image as they age:

  "I feel like I'm quite ugly... now I've got this new face... It took me a long time to get used to it." ([15:36]-[16:08])

8. Objects, Memory, and Sentimentality

• Guest collects rocks and bits of sand from travels, each linked to story or landscape ([19:41]-[21:02]).
• Most precious are white stones secretly given by their son during a difficult family period:

  "He collected these white stones when he was in Portugal and secretly put them in his suitcase... That's my favorite present." ([21:06])

• Contrasts these objects (freedom) to the stagnating sentimental boxes of deceased parents:

  "My rocks and my sand things are like freedom and [the boxes] are like the opposite." ([23:09])

9. Childhood, Neglect, and Emotional Retreat

• Deep insights on childhood neglect and its psychic legacy:

  "Sometimes I feel angry about it, sometimes I feel okay about it. But... as a kid it was really hard to tolerate one, being ignored and second being constantly humiliated." ([27:15])

• Coping involved a deep internal retreat:

  "I have to play on my own. I have to be on my own because there's nothing there... So I'm going to have to just figure this out." ([28:52])

10. Solitude, Love, and Taking Risks

• Discusses how solitude is now a choice, romantic life is “barren” by preference.

  "Being barren. It's a choice of freedom." ([31:23])

• Regrets about not taking enough risks in the past, but expresses openness to change:

  "I'm more up for risk now." ([36:06])

11. Liberation and Letting Go

• Conversation about letting go of inherited boxes and possessions, and the guilt (and relief) it might bring.

  "Just take a couple of things out of them, which are small and really important, and then just get rid. Replace them with rocks and things that make you happy." ([23:43])

12. Lightheartedness amidst Depth

• Tom and guest share humor on death, funerals, and the idea of a round, tribal drum coffin:

  "I'd like it to be like a club night, just like whack on the Chemical Brothers... Using my coffin as a drum." ([38:39]–[38:58])

13. Longing to Be Seen

• Guest expresses desire for others to see their true self:

  "I wish that I could allow people to see really, how much I've got to offer... I would like people to be able to see me more, and I'd like to be able to feel comfortable to let people see me more." ([41:59])

• Tom reassures:

  "Just during our conversation now, I felt like you've been really beautifully open..." ([42:22])

14. Objects as Symbols: The Unplayed Guitar

• Guest reveals they stopped playing guitar (and writing songs) after their parents died:

  "When they died, part of me died, I think, because since then the stuff getting sticky... I don't want to let the guitar go. But I'm not playing it." ([44:49]–[45:46])

• Tom muses on seeing oneself as newly born after parental loss, comparing the time since loss to a child's age.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On openness and the limits of empathy:

  "By working with people you've learned that you know nothing about people?"
  "Yeah." ([02:47]–[02:49])

• On the truth of the self:

  "I think puddles are more truthful." ([15:33])

• On family objects:

  "My rocks and my sand things are like freedom and [the boxes] are like the opposite." ([23:09])

• On being seen:

  "I think that I wish that I could allow people to see really, how much I've got to offer." ([41:59])

• On the legacy of family:

  "It's a legacy, isn't it? You just pass this shit forward. So sad. And then they're the recipients of the mess of our parents, as I was the recipient and the mess of mine." ([32:38])

• On funerals and dancing:

  "I'd like it to be like a club night, just like whack on the Chemical Brothers. Using my coffin as a drum." ([38:39]–[38:58])

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Important Timestamps

• [00:49] – Conversation about Friday, unpredictability, and openness to surprise
• [02:30] – Guest on being a therapist and not truly knowing people
• [03:17] – Confessions of self-doubt and anxiety
• [04:57] – Dancing as a mental and physical liberation
• [10:59] – Vivid recall of seeing father after death
• [13:14] – Coping with loss through Taoism and Chinese philosophy
• [15:33] – Puddles as a metaphor for authentic self-reflection
• [21:06] – The story of the white stones from her son
• [27:15] – The emotional impact of parental neglect
• [31:23] – Solitude as a chosen freedom
• [38:39] – The fantasy of a club night funeral with a drum-coffin
• [41:59] – The wish to be seen and less guarded
• [44:49] – The unplayed guitar and the symbolic loss of creative outlets

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Tone & Atmosphere

The conversation is deeply personal and vulnerable, punctuated by humor and warmth. Tom's gentle prodding and playful asides help create an atmosphere of trust, allowing the guest to candidly share difficult, complex emotions. There’s an underlying optimism—about change, risk, and self-acceptance—woven through even the darkest topics.

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Conclusion

This episode of "Strangers on a Bench" stands as a moving meditation on life's unpredictability, the intimacy of interior solitude, how we carry and let go of the past, and the slow, hopeful act of reinvention. The poignant reflections, unexpected humor, and poetic moments (the titular "truth puddle") make this a resonant listen for anyone reflecting on grief, aging, memory, or self-discovery.

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End of summary.

Transcript

[A]

Hello. Sorry to bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a. Do you have a favorite day of the week?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Friday, traditionally.

[A]

So traditional of you.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it is. It's kind of the. It could be surprise stuff going from Friday onwards. Whereas Monday to Friday feels quite predictable.

[A]

But Friday onwards, a complete surprise.

[B]

It has possibilities.

[A]

I like it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When was the last Friday that became a surprise?

[B]

It's not necessarily like an event, but it's just that more unusual things happen. Like I might meet people like you, or I might have space, a mental space to be more open to people. And so I might have conversations or I might get invited somewhere. I think everything surprises me, really. I'm really up for.

[A]

What does that mean everything surprises you?

[B]

I just don't know what to expect. I'm open to the idea of things not really being predictable.

[A]

This is interesting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I would say most people are not like that. Would you agree?

[B]

I'm not sure. I'm not sure that I know what most people really feel.

[A]

That's a really big line. In about a minute in. I mean, I'm not sure what most people really feel either. Partly, maybe why I'm doing this. I'm trying to get insight. I'm trying to figure it all out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What's.

[B]

I'm being cautious.

[A]

What do most people really feel? What do you think? Scared. What do you think they feel? That they don't say.

[B]

Just doing something wrong. Saying something wrong or something unacceptable. Something that will upset someone.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, even now I feel my own cautiousness. Just a sort of self consciousness. My work is therapy, so I work with people, so I know that I know nothing about people.

[A]

So by working with people you've learned that you know nothing about people?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Anything else you've learned?

[B]

Just sort of how everything is complicated and simple at the same time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How much is created that isn't real, how crippling that is for me. I mean, I don't exempt myself from that struggle. I'm in it as well as in you.

[A]

You have crippling thoughts.

[B]

Yeah, I do. Yeah.

[A]

What are they?

[B]

Sometimes I'm not good enough. Or sometimes I'm not attractive enough. Or I might get rejected from like a friendship if I say something. Or sometimes I get scared of death. Yeah. And it makes me more introverted, less open and I try to be aware of him. Like when you came up to me, I was a bit. Maybe, okay, just check it and see if he's nuts.

[A]

Is he nuts?

[B]

Is he nuts?

[A]

Is he nuts?

[B]

Is he nuts?

[A]

It's a tricky one. Might decide suddenly I am.

[B]

Yeah, maybe, but maybe I am too. Quite deep, really.

[A]

Bit nuts.

[B]

We're going straight into the deep end.

[A]

Well, that's what we're here for.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We'll do the light stuff at the end.

[B]

All right. We might end up in the light.

[A]

We'll do it in reverse.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you feel you have a lot to say and you can't say it? Do you feel like what you have to say to people is difficult?

[B]

I feel like I have a lot to say. Like I have a lot of ideas and it depends on where I am, whether I feel I can say it. So I think that's a restriction.

[A]

What do you do with all these ideas of yours? Where do they go?

[B]

Good question. I think they go into my work, they go into my clothes, they go into my home, they go into what I read things that I love. Music or dance. I was dancing last night, so.

[A]

You're dancing last night?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Good times.

[B]

That is when my brain is off the leash.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I just love it. It's just like real freedom. Yeah, yeah. More of that.

[A]

More of that. I agree. What was the. Can you describe the situation?

[B]

It's just a pub event where they play music, but when they start playing, like Chemical Brothers and that kind of music, it's just like immersion. It's so nice to just park your head and just let your body drive, you know, like everybody else. I think. I think there's way too much thinking making stuff complicated.

[A]

Well, there's a lot to think about, so. Understandable. But you're right, I think there is too much thinking.

[B]

So I'm still. Yeah, I'm still coming down from that headset.

[A]

How late did you go?

[B]

Not that late. I got back sort of around 11.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, but it's just intense.

[A]

What's your kind of dancing look like? How to describe it?

[B]

Yeah, a bit old school rhythm and blues, because I like black music, but I do love club music and rave music and garage music. It's nice not to have all the lyrics.

[A]

So that's one less thing to think about.

[B]

That's one less thing to. And it's not my thought anyway, you know?

[A]

Yeah. So are you kind of spreading yourself out? If I would have been there last night, would I have spotted, you know, what would I have thought as an observer of your dancing.

[B]

I think you would have seen someone who was just in the rhythm and might have wanted to dance. Watching me dance.

[A]

Oh, nice. Wow. You're like a magnet for others.

[B]

Is this reflecting how good it is to let your hair down?

[A]

Are you dancing with anyone? Are you just like in your own zone?

[B]

I'm dancing with people almost tribally without actually dancing a dance with them. I don't like dancing with people. I feel that really restricting.

[A]

So you're not going to be unsurpritly come dancing then?

[B]

No, I'm glad that I still feel like that. Even at this age. I still have access to that. I won't ever lose that, even in a wheelchair.

[A]

Still, when you say this age.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What do you mean by that?

[B]

At this point in my life and my maturity, I still able to access my energy and my freedom. Even though I am self conscious at that point, I'm not. And it's really lovely to have a space place of unself consciousness, which is rare beauty for me and I really appreciate it.

[A]

How do you feel about your own maturity?

[B]

I'm getting better at it.

[A]

Does that imply that it took you a while?

[B]

It did.

[A]

What took you so long?

[B]

Fear of death, Fear of aging, Loss of beauty. Not saying I ever had it, but whatever. I had the change and what it means. I think after losing my parents, whatever delusions I had about living forever vanished when they died. Yeah.

[A]

Before that you thought it was a chance.

[B]

Yeah. I was in with the chance. And then. Yeah. That's like.

[A]

Oh, I sung that ship.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Maybe I could bring Livy forever back. Maybe you can, I think, start again. Maybe you do. You say you like surprises. So.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's what I'm bringing you today. You know, your everlasting life.

[B]

Thank you. That's a big offer.

[A]

I'll take that anytime.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just for you.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Thank you. Which parent dying was more painful?

[B]

Both of them. Equally. Completely different ways.

[A]

Can you tell me about that? I've had one parent died in case you thought you. You were alone in this.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Not both though. So I can't quite compete.

[B]

Well, let's not compete.

[A]

That's not gonna be a bad parent. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Probably not the good thing to compare. Why are we laughing?

[A]

Why not?

[B]

I suppose. Yeah. My dad left was very sudden. And I was really close to my dad. Even though I had a really complicated relationship with him. And he was very cruel when we were young. And then my mom, I think she started getting jealous of the attention that my dad got when it was going on around him. And then she started.

[A]

Hang on, this is maybe the first case of death jealousy I've ever done.

[B]

Death jealousy. Not death, but attention.

[A]

Okay, Attention related to death. Yeah, but he was. He was. He was dead at that point.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she was like, oh, this is annoying. You're talking about him a lot.

[B]

No, it wasn't even conscious. She didn't construct that. It was just. That's what I felt it was. But then she had a stroke, which just left her virtually like a vegetable for two years. That was a fucking hell. Excuse me, I'm swearing. It was hell. So you come out of that different person.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's nice to still have my energy. I can still play.

[A]

So that day of dad dying was a big day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where were you and what do you remember of it?

[B]

I was at home. It was sort of late evening and I just got a phone call.

[A]

With.

[B]

This bumbling carer in the phone. And then they just wanted me basically to go down there and identify him on the floor was terrible. That's going through his flat. And to see him just like that, just a normal day, and then bang. Life.

[A]

That's life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like, what do you do when you walk into that flat? Like, what. What are your feelings? Do you just look at him and say, yeah, that's my dad. I mean, what do you do?

[B]

It was like, this can't be happening. It's not real. But to see him, like, not being alive, it was very sobering. And it was too late. It was too late to say anything. There was no time. It just felt really unfair. But tried to talk to him. I told him I loved him and I was sorry. I'm just looking at his face, I mean, with the bristles on his face, but his eyes were so open and so blue. His eyes were so blue. And I could still smell his lunch. It was just so weird. It was so weird. And then when they did finally come to take him, they said, oh, don't look, you know, and they were putting him in a bag. My God. And so I looked away. I didn't want to see that, but I could hear them doing it. It was horrific. And knowing that I'll be in a bag one day as well. And it's kind of like, oh, Right, death is real.

[A]

Yeah. How did you react to that thought?

[B]

That's a good question. I did feel like in shock. It took me time to really absorb that reality because it felt so surreal. And I think I didn't fully get to process it. Because then my mum and then it was about looking out again towards her and also seeing her dead as well. That was another kind of reality. Like really having a sense that, you know, I'm next. I mean, that was scary. It is scary. But I think I worked through the fear of it a lot by kind of engaging more with Chinese cultural wisdom.

[A]

You say Chinese cultural wisdom?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is after both of them had died.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Years later, it took me time to kind of settle my anxiety, kind of really look into my fear and just trying to make sense of how I want to be in my life. Not necessarily what I want to do, but I want to be with. Just engaging with my own life more. Being orphaned, being an orphan. Yeah.

[A]

Funny thought, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You wear a T shirt.

[B]

I'm an orphan. There weren't any. Damn.

[A]

You could always just do a badge.

[B]

No, the T shirt.

[A]

You prefer a T shirt? Bigger.

[B]

Yeah. As loud as this one as well.

[A]

That is quite a loud T shirt.

[B]

It is.

[A]

Maybe if you didn't wear one today, I wouldn't have come up to you.

[B]

I don't know. I don't. Did you even notice it?

[A]

Yeah, of course.

[B]

Oh, okay. It's hard for me to know because I can't see.

[A]

You can't see it? Yeah. That's a problem. You can't see yourself.

[B]

Yeah, I can't see myself.

[A]

Another funny thought. Other than in a mirror and if. What. What happened if mirrors didn't exist?

[C]

What?

[A]

A puddle. You ever looked at yourself in water?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, you do? Quite regularly?

[B]

Not regularly. I can't say it's a hobby or anything.

[A]

That'd be a great hobby. Despite the nearest puzzle, bend down to seek them out to see what you can look like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How do you feel about your face? Can you describe it? The mixer of this podcast, so called Mike. Very sweet man.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He's always telling me, oh, I knew what they look like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think. Well, they could just. You could just describe it.

[B]

It's really hard to think about that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow. That is a challenge.

[A]

It is, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Think you're up to it?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Caucasian, blonde, green, gray, blue eyes.

[A]

Let's have a look. Yeah. I would say more towards blue than green.

[B]

Yeah. It was changing as I'm changing as well.

[A]

Every day. Different eyes. Yes.

[B]

That's why it's worth looking in that puzzle.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think puddles are more truthful.

[A]

The truth puddle.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think I feel like I'm quite ugly, but that's a big thing to say.

[A]

Yeah, I wouldn't say that at all. Why do you say that?

[B]

I think, like, as I've aged, I looked very different before and it felt like that was my face, interesting. Like it fitted me really well. But now I've got this new face. It took me a long time to get used to it. I look at it and just think, who's that?

[A]

When does a new face come in?

[B]

I think around 50s.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. I noticed that the actual structure of it and the way it looks, the way it changes where your eyes are and how you smile and, like, the shape of your jaw and all of these things. It kind of feels like it happens quite quickly, what it did for me. So it's taken me years to get used to it and not feel upset about it. Doing some of the reading of Taoism has been really interesting as well, being with things. And it does speak to me this, like, enjoying change, not being afraid of it, just being curious about it. It's all stuff that I would tell my clients. But it's very different when it's you. It's completely different. You can't have that same relationship with yourself at all.

[A]

It's a funny thought that it's almost impossible to give yourself advice.

[B]

Yeah, I can't be. I'm too biased. I can't be objective about me. I really can't. So, yeah, I mean, it's nice. It's nice to know that. I think it gives me hope for myself and for everyone, really, that we can change and be much more with things and not so frightened and angry all the time and judgmental. You know, this whole thing that I noticed, the people always want to take sides with everything. You just expected to have a side. Yeah. What side? What side are you on?

[A]

It's funny. You're right. It is a world of sides, isn't it? Yeah. It seems to be Football, politics, puddles. Puddles that have sides.

[B]

I haven't thought about that. Yeah, they do have sides. There is, you know, there's a lot of stuff around water.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

The way it moves. It is incredible.

[A]

Are you good with water? Yeah. You're a swimmer?

[B]

Yeah, not great, but I can swim. I love the ocean. I appreciate the rain.

[A]

Would you ever drink the rain?

[B]

Yeah, it doesn't work.

[A]

It is quite hard to, like, drink the rain, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why is it so difficult?

[B]

Because it's so different from swallowing, you know, you feel like a panting dog.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

As a kid, as a child, I would just do it and not be self conscious. Kids do it all the time. It's really nice to watch that. They just take their tongue out and just go for it. They're just in it.

[A]

Well, that's what we got to do now, really. We should be drinking the rain now.

[B]

We should.

[A]

When was the last time you felt like you did something that you would have done as a child?

[B]

I would be. Last year when I was on holiday on the beach. I'd, like, get my shoes off, get in there.

[A]

You put a sandcastle.

[B]

I didn't, but I wanted to. But I put rocks together instead. I made a face. I took a picture of it.

[A]

Wonderful. Is that happy face?

[B]

It was an intense face.

[A]

Oh, hello.

[B]

Tribal face.

[A]

An intense beach face.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How often do you draw a face?

[B]

I don't draw it with a pen, but I might put it together with stones and sticks.

[A]

Like arranging it with an object.

[B]

Yeah. I'm creating it out of something normal.

[A]

You're not a pen person. You're an object person. You collect objects?

[B]

I do, yeah.

[A]

I knew it. Tell me about the objects you collect.

[B]

Nature objects, stones. I collect bits of sand from places that I go.

[A]

Sand?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How do you carry the sand around?

[B]

Just get like a container and whether.

[A]

You have a container just.

[B]

I just get one. I like, buy something and then I.

[A]

I thought you would have a container with you. That'd be interesting.

[B]

I might. I mean, I'm the sort of person that would do that because I just know I'm gonna pick up some sand. Yeah. I broke my suitcase once carrying so many rocks back. That was a mistake at the airport.

[A]

The guys looking through the air.

[B]

So heavy.

[A]

Why is this? That's a bag of body in there. That's just a bag of rocks in there. Who is this person? What do you look for in a rock?

[B]

A story of the landscape that's unique to that place.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Every rock is different, and every landscape has different structures in the rocks and the sand's different colors.

[A]

So does that mean. I'm trying to imagine now what your place looks like? I'm just seeing rocks. I'm just seeing lots of rocks.

[B]

Rocks, seaweeds.

[A]

It's everywhere. Sea sponges, basically. Like a beach. It's like a home beach. Is it?

[B]

It is. I need to rail it in.

[A]

Impossible not to. So if. Let's imagine me and you in your house. You're giving me the guided tour. Could you point at any rock and go. Yeah. That's from then.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Really? Whoa. Well, that's impressive.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Have you got any rock in Particular. That's very important.

[B]

Yeah. I have some white rocks that my son got me when he was a kid, and they're really special because I had a very difficult breakup with his dad. I'll say not too much about that, but my son wasn't able to buy me a present when he was on holiday with his father. He wasn't allowed. So instead he collected these white stones when he was in Portugal and secretly put them in his suitcase. He didn't tell his dad they were for me, and then he gave them to me. And that's my favorite present because he remembered these beautiful white stones in Portugal. You can't get that anywhere else. It was just from that area and it was just that the whole picture, the whole story of that was just so lovely. So they are my favourite stones. Even though he's like 34 now.

[A]

If I was in your house again, back to your house, say you gave me half an hour of complete freedom just to kind of mooch about.

[B]

You just find more rocks.

[A]

I'm just. I want to find more rocks. Is there anything in this house that I would find? I'd be like, what? What is that?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, what is it?

[B]

It is the. The hangover, sentimental boxes of my mausoleum, my parents and my family that are in my bedroom. And there was more. I've got rid of a lot, but I'm sort of stuck with these two enormous boxes and they're, like, so stagnating.

[A]

Why do you think it's donating?

[B]

It feels unapproachable.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it's too painful.

[B]

Yeah. And it's so. It's so difficult to discard and my siblings don't want any of it.

[A]

You've been left with it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Keeper of the box.

[B]

Keeper of the boxes. So my rocks and my sand things are like freedom and that's like the opposite. Yeah.

[A]

Can you just burn it all?

[B]

I thought so much about it, because that's quite ritually, but I think do it. Yeah.

[A]

You know, you see the box, you feel the weight of all the things in it, even without being able to sit. It's like the worst kind of scene weight.

[B]

Yeah. They're like graves.

[A]

I just think, take a couple of things out of them, which are small and really important, and then just get rid. Replace them with rocks and things that make you happy.

[B]

Yeah. This is the thing I like. Things that make me happy. That feels very guilty as well as liberating. Yeah. The thought of discarding, but they're gone.

[A]

And also, you're not just Discarding them from your memory.

[C]

Right.

[A]

I mean, that's impossible.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Here you are talking about them. If you think about. Let's imagine we're dead for a minute. Maybe we are. What is it that the living are just the dead on holiday? Quite like that one. Quite like that one.

[B]

Where does that come from?

[A]

I don't know. I just remember that from somewhere. It came back to me. Quite like it. Yeah.

[B]

I quite like it as well.

[A]

Fun thought as well. You know, if someone's listening to this, in 100 years we'll all both be dead. That'd be fun. That'd be accurate. Right, so we're both dead. We establish that. Think about your possessions and your next of kin kind of dealing with them. I can think of lots of things that are really important to me now. I can't think of anything that I'd be like, you must keep hold of that. You must. I mean, it's just a lot of stuff. I mean, it's just. If there's enough stuff in your life, don't burden yourself with more stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm guessing if your parents were here, they'd probably also say that to you. Or maybe they wouldn't keep it all. Yeah. Don't throw that away.

[B]

What are you doing?

[A]

What are you doing? This has become a ridiculous seance for me. You're joking. Do not burn my things. Is this seance? When dead people talk to you, do.

[B]

You think that seance, that is.

[A]

Maybe we should do it on now.

[B]

I don't think this is the right environment. It could worry other people.

[A]

We could have had the very first seance on a bench there. We could have broken entire new ground. Wow. It could have happened. But maybe we did. In a way. You're like, don't get rid of it. Who is your mum or dad?

[B]

Say mum.

[A]

There you go. I'm calling it. It was a seance.

[B]

Yeah. That was a breakthrough.

[A]

Wow. And the breakthrough is. Don't do anything. Keep it. Just as you.

[B]

Don't listen to that man. What does he know?

[A]

He's just a nutter on a bed stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Listen to a nut on a bench. Your own mother. You said your father was cruel to you. What was your mum doing whilst he was cruel?

[B]

She was just in a bubble.

[A]

She didn't see it.

[B]

She said, just ignore it.

[A]

Does that mean you lump her into that behavior or is she held in a different kind of light?

[B]

I think as I've sort of gone through life and see that both of them have got stuff playing out, you know? On the one hand I can see why my parents were the way they were because of their background and how my mum survived. But also my mum was very. She was quite self obsessed as well. I think both of my parents were quite self obsessed. We were just an audience to whatever their stuff was. And then you end up getting ignored as well. And sometimes I feel angry about it, sometimes I feel okay about it. But I think as a kid it was really hard to tolerate one, being ignored and second being constantly humiliated.

[A]

If it's not too painful as us. What was that like?

[B]

Just stupid, idiot, ridiculous, worthless kids are shit and things like that. Just no interest in anything we said or thought or no investment in us, no interest in our education, no interest in us. And say stuff like you're nothing special. Which I can agree with now but at the time that's not what you want to hear.

[A]

Why are you agreeing with it now?

[B]

I think because I'm nothing special. But I'm also something special. I mean, I get that.

[A]

I mean no one's anything special and everyone's incredibly special. So.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But even in the nature of saying that is really brutal. No one ever needs to be told they're nothing special special.

[B]

Really think how you saw things. Just a very bitter, bitter, angry person. I mean I can remember when I was very young that I actually remember just questioning whether I existed or not because I was ignored so much and neglected so much that I wasn't sure whether I was dreaming life or whether I was actually alive. I wasn't frightened, I was just genuinely confused because I didn't seem to be there.

[A]

Give me a rough age. You're experiencing these things.

[B]

I can't remember. Obviously you're small. Yeah.

[A]

And when you're having these thoughts, what did you do as a result of that? Where did that take you?

[B]

I think it took me in back in to myself. And so I have to play on my own. I have to be on my own because there's nothing there. So I'm going to have to just figure this out, live my life alone in this family even with my siblings around. And I think that's just made me really self sufficient but lonely. So I think my way of managing that was just sort of anchoring in myself. I make myself real to myself because I don't know if I'm actually real.

[A]

Big question coming up. Do you feel like you're still in yourself or do you think you emerged or do you've emerged but all the emergencies you had have been kind of temporary and you've then gone back in?

[B]

I think so, yeah. It's like home. I think it's just a familiar place for me to go if I'm overwhelmed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's almost like animalistic. I go out there a bit, then, yeah, get back in my basket. It's kind of nice.

[A]

Was anyone able to join you in that basket?

[B]

No, no one was in the basket with me. No. That is that early self care.

[A]

This is another big question for you, but let's keep them going. Do you feel like anyone has actually ever really known you?

[B]

But honestly I would say no. And I think at the time I would have said yes, they do. I think there's a part of me that is just not accessible. And that's probably a shame. That might change. I thought it had, but I realized it hasn't actually. It's still a retreat. In my retreat with my rocks, we're all together. Maybe that's why I collect those things. I don't know. Yeah.

[A]

How is your romantic life now?

[B]

Pretty barren. It's a choice.

[A]

What's a choice?

[B]

Being barren. It's a choice of freedom.

[A]

So you think having a romantic partner, this is freedom?

[B]

I don't know about love.

[A]

No. Do I?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What do you know about love?

[B]

It's a state of being that can change into something else.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Change into not a good thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You mentioned your. The breakup with your son's father was particularly bad. I mean that obviously gains too much detail. Why was it particularly bad? Was it just. It took a long time or.

[B]

I think just the person and myself were probably changing so much that there was like a new us.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There were just two aliens.

[A]

Well, that's the comedy of it all really, isn't it? I mean, that's why it's kind of actually is amazing. Anything works. Everyone change all the time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Two people meet at one particular point in time, which they do get on at that particular point, then they start changing. Changing and changing and changing.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then how do people even do it? Do you still speak with them at all? Not at all.

[B]

No. It's quite bad. You know, it's just. It's a legacy, isn't it? You just pass this shit forward. So sad. And then there the recipient sense of the mess of our parents, as I was the recipient and the mess of mine.

[A]

Geez, there's a whole lot of mess.

[B]

There's a whole lot passed down. Yeah.

[A]

It didn't start with your parents, did it?

[B]

Your notice went back.

[A]

It's a long time coming. It makes you realize that, like, just really to change anything is a Herculean effort to kind of arrest all that momentum of repeated behaviors.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I think. I believe that marriages can be good if people are compatible. I have friends that have good marriages. I don't. I'm not, like, against it. It just, you know, maybe it's not for me. I like. I like to have my choices. I don't like to be contained. That's not the best, probably.

[A]

Yeah. What about lovers? Do you do temporary stuff?

[B]

Not anymore. In the past, not lots, but.

[A]

But why give that up?

[B]

I think because of my need. I have less need of it now as well, I suppose. My drive is different now. I already have given myself to my children. I have my patience at work. I don't want to be holding up somebody. I need to have balance. It's got to be a plus. I'm not perfect, but it's got to be an additional. Of course, with whatever time I've got left. I don't want it to be like that. That's all. Just trying to just preserve and cherish things more.

[A]

Slightly painful question, but any humans in your life that you felt? Some got away from me, but they could have been great.

[B]

I think only from a fantasy perspective. I might have met someone briefly and just thought I should have just gone with that person. With my cautiousness, stopped me. Even if I was with someone else and I saw someone else, like, the right thing to do is like, to not go with them. Like, I shouldn't have worried about that.

[A]

It's so funny how we. We are very moral, aren't we, as humans?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And actually it's very important in many ways. But you sometimes think in those occasions, if, for instance, you did go off with that person, obviously it could have been disaster. We know you could have been with them for the rest of your life. And then if you say to me, well, we've been together 30 years, that kind of. What do you want to call it? Misdemeanor, that kind of trip out of the moral bubble. It seems insignificant. You've been together 30 years. So, I mean, it's kind of. We're at the time. Yeah, of course. It's very significant. I don't know. It's something to think about. Is this interesting, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah, I think because at that point, you know, I was going on the basis that I was going to live forever anyway.

[A]

Of course. Pre orphan time. Yeah.

[B]

I was never gonna live forever. It's other people. Yeah. And we live forever. So, like, there's time. No. I could have missed quite a few adventures because those are things I'll never know. But I didn't take enough risks, definitely.

[A]

Do you feel like there's risks left in you?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. That's good. I think there are, too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think there definitely are.

[B]

Yeah. I'm more up for risk now.

[A]

Yeah. Can you think of, like, what kind of shape they might take these risks? One giant rock.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Your. Your place is just one rock.

[B]

Yeah. No, I think because I'm being more open instinctually to things. I've noticed that since, you know. Yeah. Like now.

[A]

Living the risk.

[B]

Yeah. Turns out you're not an utter. It's been good. I'm glad. Nice. A great surprise.

[A]

Fantastic. Can I ask you four more questions? Or maybe three even? I asked this question to someone earlier. She didn't have an answer, but I want to ask it again because it's on my mind. I saw two young boys, Tiny, just have a wee, just by a tree, just right in front of us. But can you think of your most exciting wee?

[B]

So many wees to choose from. That is a really great question. Yeah. I've got weeds and. Exciting.

[A]

Can you think of anything? Guys, see if you can summon one. Summon a wee.

[B]

For me, I think just being so drunk at a party, just staggering to the toilet and hitting the walls and people laughing at me and just, like, just not getting toasted.

[A]

Toilets.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know what was happening. Something was coming out and I don't know why it was going. It was the same. Disgraceful. But it was my most freeway ever.

[A]

Fantastic. And I suppose once you start wing, you don't mind at that point it's coming out, that you can't control it.

[B]

Yeah, I can't control it.

[A]

And that moment's probably quite free. Even though you know why it's going over.

[B]

All the mad was that it was coming out. It was that it was going. But that was a good one.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

My liberating wing.

[A]

I quite like the idea that you. You thought it was kind of disgraceful but brilliant at the same time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Let's talk about your funeral.

[B]

Very positive.

[A]

You'd love this one. Can you think of something you would like to happen at your funeral, which doesn't normally happen at funerals.

[B]

As you can see. I haven't given this a huge amount of thought.

[A]

Maybe you are immortal after all.

[B]

Yeah. There's no prep for this. Something that I'd like it to be like a club night, just like whack on the chemical.

[A]

Chemical Brothers.

[B]

Yeah. Let's turn it up. Let's go. Yeah. Using my coffin as a drum. Whatever. Just have a party.

[A]

Coffin is a drum. Yeah. That's fun.

[B]

Yeah. They just have a round one.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Really piss everybody off at the graveyard. Massive round, but like they used to do in primitive times. They used to bury people like that, didn't they? I think that's kind of nice.

[A]

It's nice.

[B]

I like the idea of being buried in a feeding.

[A]

Different position.

[B]

Yeah. I don't like the laying out flat.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You could put me in like that way. Slot me in vertically if that makes you happy.

[A]

It's a slot. You inverted me. Well, yeah. You'll roll you somewhere that's quite good. Where do you want to be rolled?

[B]

Yeah, it's not.

[A]

Roll you through town.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm going to ask you to do something. I've yet to ask it. I'll just come to me. Could go wrong, but let's try it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

If you were to close your eyes for a minute and if I asked you to kind of summon a scene from your life that you can remember in the most detail, can you try to explain to me what that scene would be?

[B]

Yeah. In my old house, which I do dream about a lot. Long stairs, huge to me as a kid. Really terrifying blackness at the top. The toilet was opposite there. And you stand on the sea and look at the storm. It was an amazing storm and I could see it for miles. And I really just remember that really, really well. Just being in this house, which was like, not a good house, not a good place. And standing on the toilet, saying. And just reaching out, I don't know, for some kind of energy or just. I was just so amazed by the storm. It was just. I was so small and it was so big and in a way it just gave me hope and a thrill and exhilaration. It was the total opposite of what was inside the house. I must have stood there for hours, going up that staircase into the blackness, then looking out the window like the most amazing song with bolts lightning. And I could see really far from a window because we were quite high up, I feel. So I just fell in love with the elements and nature and power of it. The power was incredible. I couldn't not, like, feel the power of it, I think.

[A]

Okay, penultimate question for you. Is there a bit of you that you wish people saw more clearly?

[B]

I think that I wish that I could allow people to see really, how much I've got to offer. There's way too much basket curling going On I don't shine as brightly as I could. I would like people to be able to see me more, and I'd like to be able to feel comfortable to let people see me more and less guarded. Yeah. They're self conscious.

[A]

I mean, if it's any consolation, slash thought for you, you know, I mean, just during our conversation now, I felt like you've been really beautifully open and shown a lot of yourself in a really lovely way.

[C]

Like.

[A]

Some people are not capable of, like, showing that or kind of even understanding that part of themselves. So.

[B]

So, I mean, it's coming. I mean, it's improving all the time.

[A]

And there's also clearly, like a lot of spark too.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Just what you do with it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Burning stuff.

[B]

Yeah. Burning stuff. Dancing on it. Pushing it out into a storm. Yeah. It sits there waiting for me to give it the right response once. Like today's made me think about it. And I don't hide the boxes because I know I need to be with them. You know, they make me suffer. But I'm not gonna put him in a cupboard because I think no.

[A]

Yeah. That's interesting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Time to confront those boxes.

[B]

Yeah. Because they're confronting me.

[A]

I mean, if anything's aside.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Talking about it, us talking about these boxes. There's a sign of some kind of action.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Needs to happen with the boxes.

[B]

Definitely.

[A]

Even if it's just one box, two become one Spice Girl song.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is famously about boxes.

[B]

I have to re. Listen to that song. Maybe it was just the song for me. Nobody writes songs like that anymore. What's happened to the world?

[A]

You wrote the song?

[B]

Not about boxes. No.

[A]

Oh, but other songs.

[B]

I wrote a song. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, one.

[B]

Just one, I think.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's quite. That's quite exciting.

[B]

Long time ago. Is it?

[A]

Yeah. You don't meet people who've written one song very often.

[B]

What do you remember of was about a friend I had at the time who died.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Okay.

[B]

So it's just about missing her. It was an okay song. The bridge was a bit dodgy. I will go back and change that. Yeah.

[A]

So that bridges are hard. Sometimes. You don't even need them. Just go straight from verse to chorus. Just jump in, you know. What did you play, out of interest? What instrument?

[B]

It was the guitar. Just an acoustic.

[A]

You still play?

[B]

No. Why?

[A]

You hate music now?

[B]

No, I love music. I just. I stopped playing, I think, when my parents died.

[A]

Oh, get it back. Come on. Get a guitar, mate.

[B]

I've still got my acoustic. I just haven't played it.

[A]

You should play it.

[B]

I don't know why I don't play it. I get stuck.

[A]

You get stuck?

[B]

I get stuck.

[A]

Where is your. Where does your guitar live?

[B]

My bedroom.

[A]

Okay, so it's out.

[B]

Yeah, I got it out.

[A]

So literally you're looking at it every day.

[B]

I'm looking at it. This is my new way of looking at things. By looking at them, you know?

[A]

Yeah, I've heard it sounds better when you play it though.

[B]

It's funny, isn't it? It's like that part of me has stopped actually. When they died, part of me died, I think, because since then the stuff getting sticky. Yeah. And a lot of that's better. But clearly, you know, I don't want to let the guitar go.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But I'm not playing it. So something tense there is not soft enough. So I refuse to put it in a cupboard.

[A]

Good. I think there will come a time when it will happen.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think also. How long ago did your parents die?

[B]

Gosh, 2016 and 2018.

[A]

Okay. So that's nine and seven years ago. Such a fundamental shift happened to you on that day your dad died. Something shifted so fundamentally that you've kind of started afresh, you know, in this new life. You're only seven, you know, nine years old. Very young.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

As in like you're like a child in your new life, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just like a nine year old might not have picked up a guitar yet, but they might do when they're 14.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think it's just a bit more of a hopeful way of looking at it sometimes. That's what I do.

[B]

There's a truth in it. I hadn't really thought of myself as being reborn.

[A]

I could ask you a thousand more questions. But also it's only going to be a snapshot.

[B]

Whatever happens, I hope it's okay for you.

[A]

It's been great.

[B]

Cool.

[A]

Really enjoyed it.

[B]

Me too.

[A]

Last question for you before I forget. What are you going to do next?

[B]

I'm going to the gym. An immediate way. Everything needs tuning because it's good for you.

[A]

Like a guitar.

[B]

Yeah. And then I think I'm going to think about my boxes and I'm going to read more philosophy and also interested in feng shui, getting some stuff about that. I'm like into unblocking stuff and looking for more work. Yeah, I think just expanding myself. Getting a bit more invested in myself out there. I really want that for me. I feel like I'm coming into it now, so I'm feeling much more relaxed than myself. So, yeah, the gym and then broadening my life. Gym first, then start with the basics, start with reality, and then work on the rest.

[A]

That makes sense.

[B]

I hope that wasn't a shit answer.

[A]

No, that's a good answer. That's absolutely fine. It's your day.

[B]

Yeah, it is.

[A]

It is your life.

[B]

Yeah. And, you know, thinking about the old coin shaped coffin, obviously that is my special moment with you. Our treasure. That was great. I haven't laughed about the idea of having a coffin before.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

Suddenly it seems quite funny.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

You brought humor to my death. Thank you.

[A]

Absolute pleasure. That's it. Well, okay, bye.

[B]

All right. Bye.

[C]

Bye. Watching the storm blow in Feeling like being born again Burning blue and red Shooting star in your head where have I been? Where have I been? Where have I been? My face is a landscape Showing how I live like the rocks in my pocket Singing oh, I have been oh, I have been Like a storm I have been Like a cloud Changing like the rain I have been I am being I have been Here I am Take a look Here I am See me stood I am being I have been I am being I have been I am being ra.