EPISODE 67: What We Do To Survive

Summary

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Strangers on a Bench, Episode 67: What We Do To Survive

Host: Tom Rosenthal
Guest: Anonymous Stranger
Air date: December 22, 2025

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Overview

In this intimate episode, Tom Rosenthal sits with a stranger on a park bench, diving deep into themes of survival, resilience, the search for meaning, and the lifelong effects of hardship. The guest, a 61-year-old vegan artist with West Indian roots, recounts a life spanning the streets of New York, prison survival, fatherhood, migration, and the healing power of art and connection with nature. Through anonymous candor, the episode explores how people adapt, what they carry, and how they imagine their futures.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Daily Life, Connection to Nature, and Vegan Living

• The guest describes a peaceful morning ritual: waking up around 7-9am, having a vegan breakfast (often tofu, vegan sausages, or just herbal tea on workout days), and sitting in his room with access to the garden, watching and feeding birds.
  • “When I open up the door, I hear the birds chirping and they start flying around like they're waiting on me to feed them. That's a nice feeling to have that connection.” (02:21)
• Feeding birds is a post-childhood habit, tied to a deep sense of connection with nature.

2. Reflections on Humanity and the System

• Discourse on human nature and societal systems, which the guest characterizes as built on lies and control.
  • “This whole system is a lie. The society we live in—we're being directed, controlled. We've been living a lie so long, when the truth is presented, we don't even know how to accept it.” (04:46)
• Attempts to avoid reliance on the system, especially regarding food and health, learning to eat better and live differently from mainstream culture.

3. Growing Up in New York: Survival, Violence, and Trauma

• The guest grew up in the Bronx and Harlem, experiencing the perils of 1970s gang culture, street violence, and survival.
  • Vivid stories include:
    • Chased and threatened by gangs at age 9, with a meat cleaver to his neck.
    • Surviving a gunpoint robbery at work.
    • Enduring shootouts and regular exposure to death and danger.
  • “I've had guns pulled out on me on the street... I've known people that got found in the boot of a car or burnt up in a car...” (09:41)
• Effects: deep distrust of people, vigilance, and the necessity to be tough.

4. Trust, Bad Choices, and Carrying Guns

• Due to the trauma, trust remains elusive.
  • “You always have those antennas up. Sometimes it's the one that's closest to you that can harm you.” (15:36)
• He avoided joining gangs even after traumatic encounters, but did own guns for protection.

5. Migration and Family Ties

• Left New York in 1999, partially motivated by a distant relationship with his father (who'd settled in the UK). He never managed to meet his father, learning only posthumously about siblings.
• Became a father himself, viewing it as a core part of his identity—especially given his own experience of father absence.

6. Prison Experience and Art as Survival

• Incarcerated for a total of 12 years (on-and-off) in the US, mainly due to survival-related crimes (weapons, drugs).
• Surviving Rikers Island meant psyching himself up mentally and adapting tough personas.
  • “To survive Rikers Island, I had to turn myself into a monster on the bus before I even get to the island.” (19:00)
• Art became a crucial tactic for survival, respect, and even financial support in prison.
  • “I made good money selling artwork in jail.” (21:11)
  • “It was one of my best survival tactics.” (21:01)
• Notable story: drew a pit bull for a feared inmate, Mo Dog, forging a protective relationship.
  • “He seemed like he liked me... I drew him a picture for free. And he really liked it… He was cool with me.” (22:23-23:09)
• Painted portraits (notably of a blues guitarist), drawing for inmates and staff alike.

7. Release and Re-entry

• His release from prison was surreal; he wanted solitude, walking three miles instead of relying on transport.
  • “You’re not used to being around people… even seeing trees, you start appreciating things.” (26:36)
• Encountered warmth from his Jamaican mother, who’d rarely visited him in prison by his request—a boundary to protect her from the stress.

8. Struggles and Hope as a Father

• Expresses pain over strained relationships with his children, especially after splitting from their mother.
  • “A good day is [my son] not dealing with me like he hates me.” (32:23)
• Feels the weight of repeating paternal absence, but also a strong urge to break the cycle.
• His daughter is reconnecting; his son is talented (teaching himself music), and the guest clings to hope.

9. The Influence of the Absent Father and the Power of Small Gestures

• His own father, though absent, once drew for him—a moment that sparked a lifelong passion for art.
  • “I can remember back to when I was like 4 years old, and he drew a picture for me, and that’s what started me drawing. So it shows me how much influence a dad could have with a child.” (36:03)

10. Healing, Dreams, and Present-Day Goals

• Healing and peace are driving forces.
  • “If I could live my rest of my days happily, I’d be grateful. And I feel blessed and fortunate to be here—even with this, because people have it a lot worse.” (38:48)
• Reflects on how prison might have been replaced with opportunity or art-related work.
• Past jobs since moving to the UK: rose to management at a scaffolding company, helped organize Olympics-related logistics.
• He has unfinished paintings; art is central but motivation wavers due to past disappointments.
• Dreams of land to grow food, perhaps in a warmer climate; open to beekeeping, wants to “start this business” and become his own boss.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Quote | Speaker | |:-------------:|:----------|:-----------| | 02:21 | “...when I open up the door, I hear the birds chirping and they start flying around like they're waiting on me to feed them. Now, that's a nice feeling to have that connection.” | Guest | | 04:46 | “This whole system is a lie. The society we live in—we're being directed, controlled. We've been living a lie so long, when the truth is presented, we don't even know how to accept it.” | Guest | | 10:31 | “You grew up with that, with it in your mind. Survival. And I guess that's why I'm so humble now, because you've seen it, been through it, and you want to avoid this type of thing.” | Guest | | 14:55 | “It makes you trust people less. Yeah, it made me make some bad choices.” | Guest | | 19:00 | “To survive Rikers Island, I had to turn myself into this monster on the bus before I even get to the island.” | Guest | | 21:11 | “I made good money selling artwork in jail.” | Guest | | 23:14 | “Yeah, I drew a picture of a pit bull. He loved it.” | Guest | | 26:36 | “You're not used to being around people. So when you're around people, your mind is racing. There's times when I didn't even see trees and started appreciating these things.” | Guest | | 32:23 | “A good day is him not dealing with me like he hates me. He's okay with me. We had a good time, respectful.” | Guest | | 36:03 | “One thing, though, I can remember back to when I was like, 4 years old, and he drew a picture for me, and that's what started me drawing. So it shows me how much influence a dad could have with a child.” | Guest | | 38:30 | “It's very important [healing]. I see things differently. People, you know, I like to show people that humble side of me. I love peace. Don't like drama. Seen it.” | Guest |

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Important Timestamps and Segments

• 00:50–02:40 – Bird feeding, nature rituals, and connection to the environment
• 03:32–06:51 – Systemic betrayal, making independent health choices
• 07:12–14:55 – Growing up in New York: gangs, violence, and survival stories
• 15:03–16:08 – Trust issues, carrying protection, survival mindset
• 18:44–24:00 – Prison: adapting, art as survival, relationship with “Mo Dog”
• 25:02–28:42 – Release from prison, family reunion, and the struggle to adjust
• 29:14–37:02 – Focus on fatherhood, family ruptures, and the cycle of absent fathers
• 38:30–41:56 – Healing, potential, and the importance of opportunity
• 43:20–44:59 – Ambitions: land, peace, self-employment, and growing food

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Closing Reflections

The guest’s story is layered, vulnerable, and unflinching: from violence-ridden youth and the hard mathematics of survival, to prisons both physical and mental, to creativity as salvation, and fatherhood as both ache and aspiration. Throughout, there’s a movement from mistrust and necessity to hopefulness and a slow, hard-earned peace.

Tom’s sensitive, curious prompts elicit unfiltered perspectives: the guest’s philosophies are never detached from his lived experience. The conversation closes with dreams—some deferred, some still possible—and the reminder that, even in darkness, small moments of connection can transform a life.

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Final Memorable Closing

Tom (47:14): “There's a million different things I can ask you, but I think we've got a really good snapshot of your very fascinating life.”

Guest (47:16): “What I've told you—most people, I don't talk about it. They don't even know I've been to jail, prison. I don't tell people this stuff... So I keep it to myself.”

Tom (48:42): “Lots to come.”

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(Episode ends with a poetic musical reflection by Tom, echoing the guest’s journey: “Slipped out of New York City fast as I could… when I paint my pictures I let it bleed right through...”)

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Transcript

[A]

Hello. Sorry to bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench, where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a. Do you have a favorite day of the week?

[B]

Not really. Because any day that turns out well is a good day, no matter what day it is.

[A]

I like that. Let's pick any random day. What for you is a kind of day. Well lived in the world. What time are we getting up?

[B]

I'd say about 7, 8, 9.

[A]

Then what happens after that? We straight out of bed.

[B]

I'm thinking about what I have to do for the day. Prepare my breakfast.

[A]

What are you having for breakfast?

[B]

I'm a vegan, so tofu with vegan sausages. Or maybe just even some herbal tea, because sometimes I like to work out and I don't want a full stomach.

[A]

Fair. Do you have any tea rituals? Are we sitting in any particular place in your house?

[B]

Yeah, my room. Access to the garden. So open the door and look outside with the birds and the greenery and enjoy that.

[A]

Oh, fantastic. So you're just looking straight out on the birds?

[B]

Yeah, it's mostly the small birds. I don't get a lot of pigeons, which is kind of cool.

[A]

You're not a fan of pigeons?

[B]

Not really. I mean, I don't hate them, but I don't go out my way to like them either. But I do feed them when.

[A]

Oh, you do? Oh, you don't like pigeons, but you feed them?

[B]

Yeah. Well, if they're there, I'll feed them. If I go to park and they're there, I'll feed them.

[A]

Do you feed the birds in your garden?

[B]

Yeah, I just put the food out there.

[A]

Oh, amazing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For how long have you been doing this? Do you remember feeding birds as a child?

[B]

Not really.

[A]

So what happened?

[B]

Well, I love nature. And since I've moved into where I live now, I've had that privilege of having birds in my backyard. And I think that when I open up the door, I hear the birds chirping and they start flying around like they're waiting on me to feed them. Now, that's a nice feeling to have that connection.

[A]

That's lovely. Why do you think it is that your soul needs that?

[B]

Well, I believe that one way or the other, we are connected to nature and animals. I'm sure they communicate within themselves and possibly they can communicate with humans. I'm sure they do. And if they see or feel that positive spirit within you, they'll feel comfortable around you.

[A]

Do you think you're a bird in a past life?

[B]

No, and I hope I don't be a bird the next life either.

[A]

Do you feel that humans are kind of disappointing, fallible creatures in the sense that those that really care about nature often, or, you know, the creatures around them often prefer the simplicity of those creatures rather than other humans. Is that the case for you?

[B]

Well, humans are more of a danger to humans. Humans, I think, have been misled and betrayed and gone astray to some degree.

[A]

Who's betrayed Humans?

[B]

Humans have betrayed humans.

[A]

Humans have betrayed humans?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Has it always been the case, in your opinion, that that's happened?

[B]

Well, I believe it's been going on a very long time. Like now a lot of people are behaving a certain way and don't know why we're behaving that certain way because the betrayal is so subliminal. Where back in the day the betrayal was probably more in your face, you know, what was coming. But now it's so disguise that we think we're doing right, but we're not doing right.

[A]

How is this underhand subliminal betrayal occurring, do you think?

[B]

How?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, I believe that this system, this whole system is a lie. System of life we live in society. Yeah.

[A]

It's a lie because how we have.

[B]

To live our life, how we're directed, and it feels like we're being controlled. And what if someone else took over that was on a different mentality, more humane, more peaceful, more loving. We would probably live in a different world. But we're not. And a lot of people don't see this because it is a lie. And we've been living a lie so long that when the truth is presented, we don't even know how to accept it.

[A]

How do you fit in then, to that lie? In a sense, you can't not do it. That's the nature of the system. How have you worked with it in your past?

[B]

I try to do that for myself instead of relying on what the system says to do and how to deal with it.

[A]

Can you give an example?

[B]

As far as health, there's so much things in the supermarkets, in the grocery shops, that's no good for us. But if you take the time to research and take matters in your own hand, you can live a healthier life. Like, if you look at me, you wouldn't think that I'm as old as I am. I'm 61 now. I try to better my way of eating and the Way I'm living compared to how I used to be or how I was taught or what's in my environment that seems like it's normal. And I've learned how to stop eating the things that I used to love to eat.

[A]

What do you miss then? What are the things you used to love?

[B]

My background is West Indian and fish. When it comes to meat, I used to like oxtail, you know, West Indian style. You know, I cut out all the sugars and things like that. Just trying to do better for myself. I don't push it on anyone else. I just do me.

[A]

Yeah. So you grew up in the West Indies?

[B]

I grew up in New York, but.

[A]

Of West Indian descent, yeah. When did you leave New York?

[B]

1999. And I've been here since. I have two children here.

[A]

What was growing up in New York like for you?

[B]

It was a journey. It was a lot of things. It was fun, a challenge. It was scary, but it was something to be proud of as well.

[A]

Let's go through it first. What was scary? What was challenging about it?

[B]

Well, there's so many things that were scary.

[A]

I've got time go through them.

[B]

I grew up in the Bronx in Harlem, and back in the 70s, there were gangs, but it wasn't like the gangs of today. You know, these guys had chains and baseball bats, older guys. I wasn't into gangs, but as kids, you know, exploring the area, in the neighborhood, we used to go to these parks and we got chased by a gang when I was nine years old. And, you know, I've seen death many times. And this is one of the times when I had a meat Khalifa put to my neck as a nine year old. And when they searched us, we had toys in our pockets. So one of the guys said, oh, these are just kids. Let them go. I had family around me that kept me grounded, but a lot of kids didn't. And this one kid, he didn't. And me and him was just always in fights. So we grew up tough. You know, I've had situations where, see, America is a gun country. And time I was working in a shop and five gunmen came in. It was three of us in the shop and they put us in the toilet in the back and they had us stuffed in this little tiny toilet. It was just enough room for one person, but it was three of us in there. And they didn't just leave. They stayed for a good 40 minutes waiting. And then they called me out asking, where is the rest of the money kept? And I told him that was it. And I got hit upside the head with a bottle. I got burnt in my face with a cigarette.

[A]

And.

[B]

It was scary because when we was in the toilet, one of the gunmen came in and started looking and seeing what else he can get. Took the one guy's gold chain off him. So one of the guys who I was with said, the next time he comes in, let's grab him. And me personally, I didn't think that was a good idea because there was four gunmen there. You know, it could end up real bad. But he never came back in after that. They left. And there's other situations. I've had guns pulled out on me on the street. I've had gangs come rush me, robbery. I've known people that got found in the boot of a car or burnt up in a car or, you know, so you was, you grew up with.

[A]

That, with it in your mind.

[B]

In your mind. Survival. And I guess that's why I'm so humble now, because you've seen it, been through it, and you want to avoid this type of thing. Most people in this country here, uk, they don't really have a clue what it's like unless you've actually lived it over there, of course.

[A]

When you're nine years old and you said the meat cleavers. Yeah, at your throat, was that a kind of moment where it was like before then there was a certain innocence and after that it was kind of something had gone.

[B]

No childhood.

[A]

Did you kind of think at that age that that was possible?

[B]

Well, no, I didn't think it was possible. We didn't expect that. Like I said, we were kids roaming and exploring. Yeah, I was frightened. One of us in that group, he immediately joined the gang after that.

[A]

For protection.

[B]

For protection and for retaliation.

[A]

And you didn't?

[B]

No.

[A]

Why?

[B]

I was never, never into that. You know, we used to have guys that we went to school with and we would always stick together and, you know, we'd play fight, we'd go to karate school or whatever so that if anything happens, we'd have to try to protect ourselves.

[A]

What do they want from you at Avengers? I mean, like, why would you chase a bunch of nine year olds?

[B]

They didn't know we were kids until they caught us.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And when you're younger, you don't see the danger as you do until you get really older. There's a time in the Bronx, I remember I was about 15, 16, and we lived in this huge building. It was seven buildings attached and a courtyard in the middle. And I walked up into one of the Buildings. And there was some guys I knew, but these are older guys, and they had guns out, but it was very quiet. And I'm looking, I'm like, what's going on? And I didn't get no answer. And then I looked across on the other side of another part of the building, and I see other gunmen. There were rivalries. And the shots started ringing out. And I thought I got shot that day because the bullets was chipping off of the wall next to me. The chips were hitting me in my face. So I ran up onto the roof. In one building, you could cross roof to roof. So I got home, two people got shot. Actually, one got killed. And about a month later, I was coming from school, got off the bus, and the older guy pulls a.45 automatic pistol on me. He says, where's the guy that shot him? That he got shot? I knew where the guy lived, but I couldn't get that information up. Then again, he burnt me in my face with a cigarette. Broad daylight, coming from school. So these things were really toughen you up, you know, These things were toughen you up.

[A]

When you say they toughen you up, like, what else do they do to you? It's a hugely traumatic event, right? I mean, yeah, they do toughen you up to those situations. They also must take a lot out of you.

[B]

Yeah, of course. It makes you trust people less. Yeah, it made me make some bad choices.

[A]

Like what?

[B]

Like going to the streets, owning guns. Myself, I've never shot no one, but we had to have guns around us.

[A]

Did you have them on you or just at your house or. How'd it work?

[B]

I wouldn't always carry a gun, but there's times when I would have. You know, you hear footsteps behind you, you have to look. You have to. So it's no one you can trust.

[A]

So how did you learn to trust anybody?

[B]

I don't really.

[A]

Oh, you still don't?

[B]

No.

[A]

No one?

[B]

No. I mean, you can sense that someone might be. Not on that level, but you always have those antennas up. Because I've come across people that will smile at you, but their thoughts and intentions are other than. It could even be someone that's close to you. Sometimes it's the one that's closest to you that can harm you.

[A]

At some point, you left all that and came here. What was the moment? You obviously decided didn't want to be there.

[B]

I wanted to change. I probably would have went back sooner, but children. I wasn't raised with a father, so I feel it's important for me to Be in my children's life.

[A]

Let's just rewind a bit. Sorry. So why did you come here in 1999?

[B]

My father lived here, but I never got a chance to see him.

[A]

I see. So your father grew up here?

[B]

He's from Jamaica, but he lived here many years.

[A]

Okay. But he wasn't in your life?

[B]

No.

[A]

So you came to see him?

[B]

Not necessarily, but it was a thought.

[A]

Did you see him?

[B]

No.

[A]

Did you want to see him?

[B]

I did, in a way, but I didn't have motivation because I was so used to him not being in my life. It just seemed normal. And then when I did try to search for him, he had just passed.

[A]

Oh. What do you know about him now? I mean, have you found out information about his life or do you still not know stuff?

[B]

Well, I know I have a brother and sisters here, but I've never met them.

[A]

Have you wanted to?

[B]

It does come across my mind, yeah. But I don't know what to expect.

[A]

Why do you think you've stopped yourself from doing that? And why do you think you haven't followed that through?

[B]

What happened is when I found out he died, it was a website. I looked up and I saw they posted that he had passed away. And I left a message in there and I just never got no response.

[A]

What did the message say?

[B]

Rest in peace, Dad. I don't even know if they know I exist, you know, But I was hoping for a response, though, but I didn't get one. It didn't bother me. I just let it go. But anyway, when I said it made me make bad decisions, I made bad decisions. And I've done prison time before, but the system was set up to get. Get us locked up. You'd have to really know what goes on to really know what it's like. So I've done prison time. And that was one of the worst times.

[A]

Was that here or in the us?

[B]

In the us this was a very long time ago.

[A]

Yeah. How long were you in there for?

[B]

I've been in and out. I got a good 12 years in, not straight.

[A]

But you're out sometimes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's a long time.

[B]

Yeah. And American prisons can be hardcore.

[A]

Yeah. Can you tell me about that?

[B]

Yeah. It was tough because you have people that was getting locked up for minor stuff, but you would get locked up with guys who were in prison for some major stuff.

[A]

Were you minor or major at that point?

[B]

I was minor in the beginning. Then it got major. No violence, just a weapon and possession of drugs. I've been to New York's jail. Rikers island is very infamous. It was a nightmare. You would have to, as a humble person and a person that's not on that crazy level, you had to kind of turn yourself into one. To survive Rikers island, they take you on this bus across this bridge. And I remember I would have to psych myself up and try to turn into this monster on the bus before I even get to the island.

[A]

How are you doing that? Just mentally.

[B]

Mentally psyching yourself up, because people are gonna approach you or you may have to react to something, a situation. There were rules, there were certain codes. But for some reason, I survived pretty well. People kind of took a liking to me, you know, I was an artist, and people loved the artists that would draw because it was a way of selling things to their family to sort of soften their heart.

[A]

Hang on. So you used to draw in prison?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And what did you draw?

[B]

Anything I could.

[A]

And sometimes you draw for other people?

[B]

Yeah, I would design tattoos for people, paint. I'd draw on envelopes. I'd even draw for the staff.

[A]

Here it is, baby.

[B]

Yeah. It was one of my best survival tactics.

[A]

Fantastic.

[B]

Yeah. I wouldn't give them away. I would sell them. It was, you know.

[A]

That was your currency, Basically, yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I made good money selling artwork in jail.

[A]

And also that kept, do you think, it.

[B]

To what he's saying.

[A]

Was it crucial to your survival as well?

[B]

Yeah, of course. Of course. You're right about.

[A]

So what you're saying is some potentially very tough people that may have hurt you, didn't hurt you because you could draw?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, there's this one guy. I'll never forget him. His name is Mo Dog. He was down with a street gang called Supreme Team in Queens, New York. And he was Rufus. He was like the muscle man, hitman type guy. And I would see him knock people out, just one punch. I didn't know him. I was very vulnerable, too. I was young. I called him, I said, let me have a cigarette. And he looked at me, he said, this is my last cigarette. But you know what? I'm gonna save you some.

[A]

Why did you approach him out of interest? I mean, why would you ask him about his last cigarette?

[B]

I didn't know it was his last. I just needed a cigarette.

[A]

Oh, I see. But you knew. Do you know of his reputation before you asked him?

[B]

No, I didn't. If I did, I probably wouldn't have asked, but I'm glad I did because he seemed like he liked me. Yeah. Because right after that, I drew him A picture for free. And he really liked it. And then we split, and I ended up in another building because there's a lot of buildings on the island, like out of prisons. And I see him again. He came and he smiled with me. But the guy who came in with me, he beat him down. And for some reason, he. He was cool with me.

[A]

What was the drawing of that you did for him? A dog, because he was called modog.

[B]

Yeah, I drew a picture of a pit bull. He loved it.

[A]

How did you present it to him? You know, you just go, look, Modo. Here's a picture of a dog.

[B]

I just gave it to him and.

[A]

Said, here's a drawing for you. Yeah, so sweet. Would you write on the back?

[B]

No.

[A]

You adjust the drawing. I'm guessing you sign it in the corner.

[B]

I can't remember. I don't think so.

[A]

And then you just hand it to him?

[B]

Yeah. And after that, a whole lot of chaos was going around with modog. And that's when I got to see who he was.

[A]

Who was he?

[B]

He was feared. I remember one time, five guards came in and he fought them all off. He was so vicious that none of the other buildings didn't want him, because wherever you go, he caused chaos.

[A]

But every time he saw you, he was like, hi, happy days.

[B]

Handshake.

[A]

Handshake, yeah. Were there any days in prison that you remember in a positive way? Was it every day?

[B]

No. No. Because, you know what we would do to survive in there is we try to have laughs about whatever we could. But you would meet some people, very sad for them, you know, life in prison, no way out. And we would try to find anything. Survival to make ourselves comfortable, cook our food if we can. Hustle money. Me, I was the artist. That was my hustle. And I got better, too. I got much better.

[A]

How often were you drawing? Like, in any given day, how many hours did you spend doing?

[B]

Was daily. It got my mind off of stuff. And then people would come to see me. Yeah. They would always want work for me.

[A]

Apart from that Dog for Mo Dog.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is there any other drawing of yours which you remember, like one that stands out for you?

[B]

Oh, there was one I really liked. There was this old guy. He was doing life, and he played the guitar, he played jazz and blues. And one day I just came. It just dawned on me. I said, you know what? I want to paint you, but you have to play for me while I'm painting what I'm painting. So he went and played me some blues. And it just. The music was another thing that made me feel good and survived in them music. And he played it and I painted him and it came out so nice. I wanted to keep it, but I promised I'd give it to him. So I gave it to him. Hopefully he's still alive and he still got it.

[A]

Oh, that's beautiful. Yeah, that's a great story.

[B]

But I painted in about two hours.

[A]

And all the time he's just playing away.

[B]

Yeah, he was playing.

[A]

That's great. So you're in and out, but like on the day that you were released after 12 years.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What was that day like?

[B]

It was kind of like foggy in a way where you couldn't believe it was reality. Even when you're out in society the first couple days or whatever, you just. You're not used to being around people. So when you're around people, your mind is racing. There's times when I didn't even see trees and started appreciating these things, you know. It was strange at first. You'd have to get used to it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It all depends on how long you've done, you know? And who's waiting for you when you get out.

[A]

Who is waiting for you?

[B]

No one. I got out. I didn't tell no one. I just walked. I could have jumped on a bus or train, but I just wanted to walk, you know. But it's a buzz, though. It's definitely a buzz.

[A]

How far do you think you'd walk that day?

[B]

About three miles.

[A]

What do you remember thinking about on that walk?

[B]

Going to see my mother and some of my family, friends, stuff like that. Thinking about what I'm gonna do with my life. And just looking around thinking about women. You know what I'm saying? Of course, yeah.

[A]

Do you remember the first thing your mom said to you when you saw her?

[B]

Old school Jamaican woman. Ah, my son, my son. Big hunts kisses. It's a good moment, you know, because I didn't rely on my family to look after me when I was in jail. I didn't want to put the burden on no one. She would come see me and I had to stop her from coming to see me, really. Especially when they moved me further out. Because for one, most guys do this when you're getting visits. It can stress you out even more. You kind of have to lock the outside world from your activity and your mentality because your mind is going to be too much out there with them.

[A]

That's got to be a pretty painful thing to say to someone though.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Does she understand it you have to cut them off.

[B]

Girlfriends, family. And plus when they would come up, sometimes they get treated a certain way, you know, you don't want to put them through that long bus ride because with me, I didn't need anything. I was sending money home.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, because of your art.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wow. And then on this walk, when you think about your life, when you were kind of thinking, what am I going to do now? What did you look to change?

[B]

Well, I cut certain people off. I was more to myself because it was always influencing friends that got me jammed up, you know, and there's things that happen with friends that I wasn't there. And I was so glad I wasn't there. And I go check. People I've worked with, you know, I've never had problems getting the job. Even when they knew I went to jail, they still take me.

[A]

Amazing. Why do you think that is?

[B]

They knew me as a person, you know. You know, I was. Just got in trouble for trying to make money. Really. It's all about survival because there was nothing really out there for us. And. And the system is so much against us. Even the schools are bad as far as helping you go in this right direction. It was no commitment. So I had to find out things for myself, hang out with older guys to learn what men should be doing. And I got some good guidance and I got some bad because I've been let down a lot by the school, by system, by my father. Like I said, I had to learn a lot of things the hard way. But I always felt guided and protected. You know, I'm not.

[A]

By who?

[B]

By God Almighty? I'm not religious, but I know there's a creator.

[A]

You're not religious, but you're into the idea of a creator.

[B]

Of course, you don't need religion to know.

[A]

I see what you mean.

[B]

Right. So I always felt protected.

[A]

Do you have nightmares about this stuff? I mean, when you're walking around?

[B]

I used to, yeah.

[A]

Not anymore?

[B]

Not so much. I have other issues with my children's mother and all that, but what have.

[A]

Children meant to you in your life?

[B]

Well, everything. Especially in the beginning. But that's a whole new episode. Oh, man.

[A]

I don't want to ask you the tricky bits, but can you talk to me about the positives?

[B]

It's just beautiful, you know, having children and doing things with them and teaching them things that you've experienced, whether it be good or bad, you want him in the right direction. But then he went pear shaped. When the mother decided, she turned against me. And it Wasn't something she spoke about, but her actions told it all. My daughter's much better than she used to be. She's older, but I could see the damage that was done to our relationship. It's gotten me into it. I even got depressed about it. It's like, okay, that happened with my daughter. And then I tried to avoid it with my son, but nothing was good enough. I get good days occasionally.

[A]

What does a good day mean?

[B]

A good day is him not dealing with me like he hates me. He's okay with me. We had a good time, respectful. But it got to a point where he'd be disrespectful. This is current going on. This is very current.

[A]

How old are your children?

[B]

13 and 23. My son is 13, but I think that he may grow out of it. The last time I saw him, it was okay. The mother's to be. She's responsible for all of it. Yeah.

[A]

Just. Just for. For a bit of fairness, obviously she's not here. What would she say about you?

[B]

She say I'm not doing enough, which is BS because I know the streets and I know this thing about street smarts. Seeing things before it happened. Read the room. And if I see something's not going right and then later on it's going to be a problem. I mention it humbly, and then I mention again, nothing gets done. After a while, you're going to sound a bit frustrated. So that's when she decides to say, I'm a Mona. But it's all for the positive.

[A]

But you've been with this person quite a long time, so I mean, there must be some things at work.

[B]

I think that we struggle for a long time.

[A]

But you stayed with her, though.

[B]

I guess I just try to work on the family because it's like my only family out here and I was trying to build and it's just what it is. It wakes up certain things in me that I, of course, you know, I get upset about it. I'm learning how to deal with it. Now after all this time.

[A]

Do you get a sense that obviously you grew up without a dad being around?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that extra important to you?

[B]

Very, very.

[A]

To kind of right that wrong?

[B]

Of course. Very 100.

[A]

And is it difficult to not have? I don't know. But like, this isn't at all of any kind of criticism in any way. I'm just interested in, like, is it difficult not having an example? You're having to make it up completely. If I think of my dad, he wasn't around that Much. But we got on very well and we spent a lot of time together. I've got a good example of how he dealt with me. What is it like not having that at all and just having to kind of invent it yourself, so to speak?

[B]

Well, growing up without one makes me feel like that's how life was. But then I knew I had a dad. And the thing is, I never hated him. I've seen him maybe four or five times in my life for a short time. He come to America a couple times, and the last time I saw him, I could see that it really kind of touched him to see me. Even tried to kiss me. And I backed off of him, you know, like, nah, man, I'm big now. You can't, you know? But I could see it in him, you know, whatever reason, he didn't do enough, but I never hated him for it. When I did see him, I was. I was happy to see him.

[A]

Do you wish you kissed him?

[B]

No.

[A]

No.

[B]

No.

[A]

Why?

[B]

I guess it's a growing up, tough boy thing, you know, I'm saying.

[A]

Yeah. But even now, he would. He would have won it.

[B]

A hug would be all right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But a kiss is too much.

[B]

Yeah. I didn't grow up like that. With that comfort.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, but one thing, though, I can remember back to when I was like, 4 years old, and he drew a picture for me, and that's what started me drawing. So it shows me how much influence a dad could have with a child.

[A]

It's amazing. Amazing. Thought that your dad only saw you four or five times, and he only needed that one moment with you to create a lifetime or something. It's incredible, really, isn't it?

[B]

It is.

[A]

Do you remember what he drew for you?

[B]

Yeah. It was a man with a cap.

[A]

A cap?

[B]

A cap on, like, you know, Andy cap. He had that type of cap on. Just a quick profile picture. And I copied it and I drew ever since.

[A]

So that's all happening right now in your life?

[B]

With my children, yeah. I'm trying to make it right, but I could see damage has been done. It's gonna take some time. Like, my daughter, she speaks to me much better. And she called me when she was sick the other day, and I ran to her aide, supported her.

[A]

Well, that's lovely.

[B]

Yeah. And I appreciated that she called me and I made sure I was there for her. My son, like I said, he has good moments, and that's what keeps my hope up, you know? And the thing is, he's so bright. He's the type of kid, he's taught himself how to read notes on the keyboard and play the keyboard by just going on YouTube and learning. And when he's into something, he really pushes it.

[A]

Do you have a fear that, understandably, that he would follow certain paths that you took?

[B]

It's not a fear, but it's a concern.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And these streets are nothing like what we was growing up. Sure too, you know, but it only takes one incident. And, yes, things do happen out here. And if you're following that path, you know, you have a chance of getting sucked into it.

[A]

To what extent is kind of healing important to you? Healing from all your own sufferings in your life? Do you feel like you've kind of completed that? Do you feel like it's ongoing? Do you feel that's important to you?

[B]

It's very important. I see things differently. People, you know, I like to show people that humble side of me. I love peace. Don't like drama. Seen it.

[A]

You've had enough of that.

[B]

Enough of it, yeah. You know, if I could live my rest of my days happily, I'd be grateful. And I'm fortunate. I feel blessed and fortunate to be here even with this, because people have it a lot worse. You know.

[A]

This may seem like a pretty obvious question to you. You were in jail for 12 years.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

As we know, everything's a system, everything's an invention. If prison didn't exist as a concept and you could decide what would have been best for you at that moment, what now would you say would have been the best thing for you at that time?

[B]

A good opportunity for either a decent job or to do something that I can enjoy and earn a living from it. Something to do with art, probably, you know, an open door in an environment where I can go and learn something and be productive. It would have been so easy for me because I take on very quickly and whatever you show me once and I got it. I've done so many different work. Like when I first came here, I got a job. I've never worked in the office, never been behind computers, and I never thought I'd end up in a boardroom with 20 people. Managers, directors. And I was a manager as well. They handpicked me. I want you to be the manager for this team for the Volkswagen UK customer service. I never thought, you know, I'd be there. Went to another job, worked there for 15 years. Scaffolding company, one of the biggest in the UK. We're putting out jobs for the Olympics. When there was Olympics here, the Royal family wedding, jubilee, horse car parade, you name it, this company did it. And I was organizing material, equipment, 15 nuris a day, single handedly. Because my manager who was doing it with me, he was on his way out, he had cancer. So, you know, all I needed was someone to open up doors and give me the opportunity. And I was always able to stand out.

[A]

So basically you were always capable of so much.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. At some point I stopped drawing for a while because I was doing some work for a couple people and they let me down and it just killed my motivation.

[A]

Are we back drawing now?

[B]

Occasionally, you know, I have a painting, two paintings sitting up on my table, sitting there for about a year, undone. But I also paint in my head to think about what I want to do with it. At least I've been doing that, you know, I mean.

[A]

Yeah. Do you want to get these paintings done?

[B]

I do, I do. It's always in my heart to start again, you know?

[A]

But I like to see these paintings when they're done.

[B]

I have a couple on my phone.

[A]

Oh, great. Can I see? Is that all right? It's all right.

[B]

I mean, I'm self taught, you know, I'm still learning. I'm always learning.

[A]

We're all still learning, that's for sure.

[B]

Photo. It's actually a. Can you see?

[A]

Am I allowed to just zoom in a bit?

[B]

It's a jazz.

[A]

Whoa. I really like it.

[B]

Thanks.

[A]

See, that's yours as well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Beautiful.

[B]

This is the Harlem rush hour. But if you can see the outside, blue is more like. It's the same people, but it's.

[A]

Oh, I like these. Oh, you're really good. I mean that. One of the only things I buy is art.

[B]

Oh, you do?

[A]

Yeah. So maybe. Maybe I'm your next. Next person. Maybe finish one of these paintings and send it to me. It's. It's destiny. You got to finish the pages now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So what do you want for the rest of your life then?

[B]

I want to earn enough to buy some sort of land where I can grow my own food, probably in a nice climate.

[A]

Could you get an allotment or anything in the meantime?

[B]

I spoke to a friend of mine who does beekeeping and he has an allotment for cheap.

[A]

You get involved with that?

[B]

I would, I would.

[A]

I often think these things. It's like we have our big ambitions. I would love to own land and do this. This. Actually, we can do something even before that happens that we don't have to wait. You can start enjoying it now.

[B]

It's just that I would prefer another country because I would like to grow fruit trees and it's best in better climate countries like soursop. I like to grow watermelon. I would grow herbs. That's good for you.

[A]

Two more questions for you. Is there one moment in your life you wish you had more courage?

[B]

Like right now? I think. I don't know if it's courage or motivation, but there's certain things I would like to do. I think the only thing that's holding me back is myself. And I think also because of the stress and depression that I've been through, because I've been through depression with my ex and my children and I'm sort of like getting strong from it. But yeah, it had me a certain way where I wasn't doing a lot of things. And there's one particular thing that I want to do.

[A]

What's this one particular thing?

[B]

I want to start this business. It's been on my mind for over a year now. But I want to be my own boss. And I think that I'm killing too much time and I need to make that first move.

[A]

And the time is now?

[B]

Yeah, the time is now. So that by the time my next springtime comes, I'm up and running.

[A]

Can you describe what we can see in front of us and how that makes you feel?

[B]

Yeah, a lot of green makes me feel at peace. There's these two trees up there I always look at because I come here often. You see the path going up right on both sides of the path. And when the wind is blowing, the leaves move a certain way where the tree looks like alive, you know, And I know they are. And I also believe you can get energy from them. You know, you can charge through trees. There's a connection. And these are the things that the system has kept from us. Our connection and our other ability. Like we have more senses than they tell us that we have because they're trying to keep us stunted. Yeah, I see peace and it's calm. There's no drama. It's totally opposite from when I was growing up in the city where I was growing up. At that time, New York was really down. Especially in my neighborhood. You'd see burnt down buildings and empty building lots. Now it's just bricks on the floor and kids playing in it on old dirty mattresses. But yeah, it's totally opposite from what I'm looking at here now. There's a decent energy.

[A]

Great answer. There's a million different things I can ask you, but I think we've got A really good snapshot of your very fascinating life.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Thank you so much for sharing what.

[B]

You'Ve shared, what I've told you. Most people, I don't talk about it. They don't even know I've been to jail, prison. I don't tell people this stuff. They're not on that level here. And they will look at you different. You know, I did tell one guy and they would feel like they can't trust me, you know, So I keep it to myself.

[A]

I wish you the very best of luck and I'm keen to see more of these paintings as well. But one last question, which is the same question that everyone gets at the end. The question is, what are you going to do next?

[B]

What I'm going to do next? Well, I got travel on my mind right now. I have a holiday coming up. And after that I'm trying to go to Canada next year to see my family over there. And then after that I'm probably going to go to a country to meet some girls who's on a different mentality. And, you know, maybe I might meet someone because I find relationships really hard out here at this time right now. I haven't been in a relationship and it does get pretty lonely, especially without my children being there, like how I like them to, of course. And I believe that there's a reason that I'm being guided this way.

[A]

Lots to come.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Thank you so much.

[B]

You're welcome.

[C]

Slipped out of New York City fast as I could they chased the child out the neighborhood Bright strokes of melancholy colored me blue but when I paint my pictures I let it bleed right through on paper, back pages whatever my heart found Cuz in the bad races there's nowhere to run so you better slow down. I moved to London raised me two kids grown Bet every pigeon dressing past my home but let me tell you about my master plan Laying me an orchard on a piece of land I believe that my dream will come true When I paint my picture I let the color bleed through on paper, back pages whatever my heart found Cause in the red graces is there's nowhere to run so you better slow down.