EPISODE 70: When You Realise Who You Are

Summary

Strangers on a Bench

EPISODE 70: When You Realise Who You Are

Host: Tom Rosenthal
Date: January 12, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this thoughtful and deeply personal episode, Tom Rosenthal sits down with a stranger on a park bench for an unguarded conversation about identity, shame, self-discovery, mental health, and the redemptive power of love and connection. The anonymous guest bravely unpacks his life’s darkest moments, including a profound breakdown and the lifelong struggle to accept his true self. The exchange is characterized by raw honesty, gentle humor, and moments of mutual recognition, with Tom expertly guiding the dialogue into spaces both vulnerable and affirming. What emerges is a meditation on pain and healing—on how our histories shape us, and how connection (even with a stranger) can be unexpectedly transformative.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Reluctant Beginnings and the “Worst Case Scenario”

• [00:46] The guest is initially hesitant to participate (“I certainly don't want to do this”), which Tom playfully frames as the best way to start.
• Notable quote:

  "Worst case scenario is when you realize who you are. That's the worst case scenario."
  — Guest, [01:01]

2. Life Without Favorite Days

• [01:40] – [02:13] Tom tries to direct the conversation toward lightness by asking about favorite days, but the guest resists ("I don't think I ever had one.").
• A brief side conversation reveals the guest is married.

3. The Nature of Suffering and Escapism

• [03:31] – [04:45] When asked about his ideal day, the guest confesses:

  "I think the best day for the kind of state of mind I'm in at the moment…is that I just don't notice it. It's a kind of escape."
  — Guest, [03:48]

• He describes habitual pain and the wish to blot out experience entirely.

4. The Five-Year Breakdown: Identity, Truth, and Pain

• [05:22] – [09:59] The guest recounts a breakdown that happened five years prior, outlining its intensity:

  “You know, you've had a breakdown because there's no question about it—it's the most intense thing, short of dying, that you can ever have… It's complete disillusionment of your identity for a…moment, and then very quickly recreates…”
  — Guest, [05:52]

• He realized he’d fabricated his identity to survive, driven by shame and the need for acceptance.

  “I realized that I wasn't the person I was. The breakdown point showed me that it was fictitious, it was fabricated.”
  — Guest, [08:11]

• Describes suicidal thoughts and chronic insomnia as the darkest part.

5. The Role of Shame and the False Self

• [09:06] – [10:46] Shame prevented him from being authentic; instead, he maintained a façade of positivity to mask vulnerability.

  “So I had to fabricate a character that was positive, something that would not be rejected… because I knew I'd put everyone off…”
  — Guest, [09:06]

• He connects this coping to unresolved childhood experiences.

6. The Saving Grace of Relationship

• [11:01] – [13:18] Tom presses for moments the guest has “gotten right”; the guest ultimately recognizes his wife as “the one good thing.”

  “Recognizing my wife was the one good thing.”
  — Guest, [12:14]

• Despite his struggles, his wife’s forgiveness and “huge heart” have been a sustaining force.
• The guest admits to feeling guilt for dragging his wife “to hell and back,” but Tom reminds him she must see the good in him too.

7. Childhood, Family, and the Sources of Pain

• [15:14] – [18:01] The guest speaks of an isolated and joyless childhood, frequenting nature to escape an oppressive, mechanistic home.

  “Home was… a dark place. Very depressing and lifeless and totally regimented and mechanistic. So I couldn't breathe. I had to get out, experiment, and explore.”
  — Guest, [17:19]

• His grandfather is remembered as a rare source of warmth and wisdom.

8. Anger and Its Origins

• [19:08] – [20:15] Lifelong anger is seen as a mask for vulnerability and fear, a learned means of feeling powerful.

  “It's just part of my persona to just go straight to anger. And it's a great way of covering up how vulnerable and insecure and fragile I feel…”
  — Guest, [19:16]

9. Cycles of Cruelty, Regret, and Longing for Connection

• [20:15] – [23:02] The guest admits to being cruel, especially to his wife, through emotional detachment and insensitivity.

  “I think it's a lack of empathy…I get locked into the mental point of it without feeling the heart at all—it’s like I become a very sadistic lawyer.”
  — Guest, [20:40]

• He expresses deep self-loathing and a perpetual sense of being a rejected outsider, always “longing, longing, longing.”

10. Tom’s Approach: Intimacy, Detachment, and the “Middle Bubble”

• [24:15] – [27:47] Tom self-reflects on his own skills:

  “I think I am really good at [intimacy]. But also, if I was too good at intimacy now…I think I would be lost in your emotion.”
  — Tom, [25:59]

• Describes his method as creating a “middle bubble”—a shared space allowing authentic, present connection, but with necessary boundaries.

11. Patterns of Isolation, Failed Groups, and Yearning for Family

• [27:53] – [38:06] The guest sees himself as “clingy” and unable to detach, always searching for belonging—from friends, groups, or surrogate families—but thwarted by deep-seated blocks from childhood.
• Attempts to join groups are seen as attempts to recreate family, inevitably failing.

12. Friendships Destroyed by Self-Destruction

• [38:13] – [39:41] He details how he has sabotaged friendships with “foul emails” in moments of built-up tension, followed by regret and shame—a cyclical pattern that’s left him largely friendless now.

13. The Undiminished Spark: Vitality Amidst Darkness

• [40:13] – [41:01] Tom observes that despite the guest’s language of darkness, there’s an energetic vitality beneath his words:

  “I’m hearing you say words that obviously make sense…but there’s a vitality to them… I've got energy to give.”
  — Tom, [40:30]

14. Paths to Healing: Usefulness and Purpose

• [32:08] – [36:41] Tom encourages the guest to use his hard-won insights to help others—through peer support or volunteering—and not to get trapped by the idea of a single “vocation.”
• The guest acknowledges the psychological barriers to inclusion and usefulness but is receptive to the idea that helping others might mitigate his pain.

15. Lightness, Seasons, and Everyday Life

• [43:34] – [45:59] The conversation lightens as Tom asks about breakfast and talks about the tyranny of summer, discovering shared dislike:

  “There's almost a drunkenness in people's psyche in the summer…so I kind of like something a bit more sober.”
  — Guest, [45:07]

16. Moments of Purity and Surprising Spaciousness

• [47:32] – [50:03] Tom asks about a recent “pure” sight—the guest describes witnessing the innocent joy of a child at the British Museum, feeling unexpectedly moved:

  “It was just a moment…That's it. It was like an image. It wasn't something I was looking at, it was like filmic, dreamlike…really innocent and pure.”
  — Guest, [48:48]

• On what surprised him about the conversation:

  “I felt, in a good way, like I disappeared a bit…It felt pretty hearty. Maybe the spaciousness has surprised me.”
  — Guest, [50:15]

17. Rediscovering Magic

• [50:50] – [52:54] The guest reflects on the loss and persistence of “magic” in life:

  “I think magic is the most important thing in the world. And so children have a much more easy connection with magic…but I haven't lost it deep down…this has seemed magical to me.”
  — Guest, [50:50]

18. Parting Thoughts

• [53:09] – [54:14] In closing, the guest says he will join his wife in town, and Tom will continue to the next conversation (and have canned fish for lunch).
• Mutual appreciation and acknowledgment of the rare honesty shared.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On breakdown and identity:

  “Breakdown almost doesn't give it justice. It's complete disillusionment of your identity…It’s like have you ever seen Terminator where it's made out of liquid metal…you melt…then you reconstitute.”
  — Guest ([05:52])

• On shame and false persona:

  “I've been trying to use my personality, intelligence, anything that I can mask it with…you work overtime to make sure they never spot it.”
  — Guest ([10:18])

• On marriage as salvation:

  “Recognizing my wife was the one good thing.”
  — Guest ([12:14])

• On family and home:

  “Home was…very depressing and lifeless and totally regimented and mechanistic. So I couldn't breathe. I had to get out, experiment and explore.”
  — Guest ([17:19])

• On cruelty and regret:

  “I've been cruel to…most people I've ever known, I think…I want payback…when I flip all that stuff…just comes out.”
  — Guest ([20:15], [38:51])

• On belonging:

  “All you want to do is be included…it’s like, I know some of the things that are the blockers…partly from childhood as well.”
  — Guest ([37:00])

• On the magic of the ‘middle bubble’:

  “If you can get into there, then you do see yourself really beautifully and you see the use of yourself…The middle bubble happens.”
  — Tom ([27:09])

• On loss and rediscovery of magic:

  “Maybe that's why I experienced when I was young, being in nature…But I haven't lost it deep down…this has seemed magical to me.”
  — Guest ([52:12], [52:45])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Guest defines ‘worst case scenario’: [01:01]
• Description of breakdown: [05:52] – [08:32]
• Discussing shame and false self: [09:06] – [10:46]
• The importance of his wife: [12:14]
• Description of childhood and escape into nature: [17:19]
• Insights on anger and its use: [19:08] – [19:37]
• Reflections on cruelty in relationships: [20:15] – [23:02]
• Discussion of group belonging and failed attempts: [36:41]
• Guest recalls sabotaging friendships: [38:51]
• Recent “pure” moment at the British Museum: [47:52]
• Surprised by the spaciousness of the conversation: [50:15]
• On the presence of magic in life: [50:50], [52:12]

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Conclusion & Takeaways

This episode stands as an unvarnished exploration of the struggle for self-acceptance, the residual effects of childhood pain, and the possibility of healing through human connection. The anonymous guest’s openness about depression, shame, and destructiveness is counterbalanced by his recognition of love, fleeting magic, and an unquenchable urge to connect. Tom’s blend of empathy, humor, and perceptive questioning allows both guest and listener to glimpse the transformative potential of simply sharing a bench—and sharing part of oneself.

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For listeners:
Whether you’ve experienced similar struggles or are seeking to understand them in others, this conversation is a testament to the value of vulnerability, the importance of being useful (even in small ways), and the persistent, sometimes hidden, presence of magic in everyday life.

Transcript

[A]

Hello. Sorry to bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench, where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a go?

[B]

I certainly don't want to do this.

[A]

That's the best way to start anything.

[B]

I know.

[A]

You know, but your beer. I mean, look, it's a short life. It's something different for the day, you know, worst case scenario. I don't know what the worst case scenario is, actually. What would be the worst case scenario?

[B]

Worst case scenario is when you realize who you are. That's the worst case scenario.

[A]

I'll try and, you know, try and steer it away from who you are. It will never be revealed.

[B]

It's unavoidable.

[A]

Okay, well.

[B]

Taken a long time for me to realize what I really am. Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And it was. It was not good.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I'm in a bad place.

[A]

Okay, well, let's. You know what we're gonna do? I'm gonna start as all these start. Everyone gets the same question at the start, and the lucky few, the start one's relaxed.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So if you can spin it into darkness.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Give it your best. I reckon you might be struggling, at least straight off the bat.

[B]

Oh, I don't think so. I got a genius for it.

[A]

Okay, the first question is, is there a day of the week that you favour?

[B]

No, we have already done it.

[A]

Now, okay, how about this? If this is a game of chess, I've got a next move to try and bat away the dark place. And the next move is, was there.

[B]

Ever one, a kind of favorite. Did you say favorite day of the week? No, I don't think I ever had one.

[A]

There's never been one?

[B]

No.

[A]

Even when you were 12? 12 years old?

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Well, let's just take any day of the week then.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I'm gonna keep us still at bay.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

With my next how I'm gonna face this next question.

[B]

There's no humor without darkness, I tell you.

[A]

Yeah, this is true.

[B]

Yeah. Okay.

[A]

Let's just take any random day. Let's say tomorrow.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, sorry.

[A]

It's Hollywood.

[B]

It's my wife, actually. She's having her teeth done at the moment. Hi. Hi there. Hi. Okay, I'm on. I'm. I'm doing a little interview in the park with someone who's doing a podcast. 15 minutes, 20 minutes or as long.

[A]

As we can get.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. I'll give you I'll give you a ring when. When it's done. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Speak to you in a while. Okay. Bye. Bye.

[A]

Now we know you've got a Y.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've dragged her into the darkness as well. Mind you, she's pretty dark herself. Darkness attracts each other.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where were we? So we were on tomorrow.

[B]

Tomorrow. Right.

[A]

Now what I want to know is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you could take me through for you, what would be your ideal day? Tomorrow. Lived on this funny planet within a reason. You said you. Are you in the place you live? What is the best possible outcome for you tomorrow of a day?

[B]

Oh, I mean, I have to be brutally honest, really, because I could probably give the answer that is expected. But in a way, I think the best day for the kind of state of mind I'm in at the moment, or have been for quite some time, is that I just don't notice it. That it's a kind of escape. That I almost don't experience today because I experience quite a lot of pain in the day. So if you could somehow find a way of escaping or not really being there, then that would probably be quite pleasurable.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I mean, I've got to be truthful. No, of course. The one thing about being where I live is you can't do the non truth anymore.

[A]

Geographically or mentally?

[B]

Mentally, Mentally. You just can't lie because you realize you've been lying most of your life. I experienced my day is can I just get it done in a kind of blur? You know, probably if I was like, I'd be on heroin or something, you know, because then I could then blot out or be an alcoholic. Of course. So what? No, I happen not to be.

[A]

This is good.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know.

[A]

Or maybe not.

[B]

It don't bel. Pain relief.

[A]

Now you've said to me there came a point in your life you can no longer lie.

[B]

Not exactly. It's more that I realized my life was a lie.

[A]

Okay. Can you tell me about that moment of realization?

[B]

I had a breakdown about five years ago. Okay. Yeah.

[A]

For people who would be listening to this, you'd be like, you know, they've heard. Everyone's heard the word breakdown.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There may be people out there who think they've had a breakdown or people can't really identify it. How did you identify yours?

[B]

You know, you've had a breakdown because there's no question about it, it's the most intense thing, short of dying that you can ever have. It's the most remarkable on one level thing that ever happened to anyone, I mean, breakdown almost doesn't give it justice. It's complete disillusionment of your identity for a. For a moment and then very quickly recreates a bit like have you ever seen Terminator where it's made out of liquid metal and so he blasts him a few times and he melts like mercury and then he reconstitutes. So eventually you try and get yourself back together and you try to get some sense of identity again. But when it actually happens, the actual breakdown point, it's complete death. And it's probably the most terrifying thing you can ever experience. I don't want to ever experience something like that again. So since then I've totally changed. I was so hypnotized by a sense of optimism and who I thought I was that it carried me through. But after that I just saw a very sharp. I saw myself very sharply and it was too much to bear, too much on the stick for one moment. It's okay.

[A]

Where does the. This isn't too much of a painful question. I suppose they're all a bit painful, but what was the heart of the pain? I mean, what was the most striking bit of the pain? I mean, what, what was it that did it? Do you know what I mean?

[B]

I realized that I wasn't the person I was. The breakdown point showed me that it was, it was fictitious, it was fabricated. I can place it because what happened was that my thoughts became incredibly vicious and violent towards myself. I wanted to kill myself.

[A]

And they hadn't been that, that previously.

[B]

No, no, no. It just happened all of a sudden exist. Because terrible voice came into my head and I couldn't turn it off. I couldn't even sleep at night. I became insomniac straight away. And it was like some part of me that needed to come out, I think which was vicious and violent and very frightening. But more truthful than fictitious character.

[A]

How were you holding your true self at bay for so long?

[B]

I think I couldn't bear to be my true self because there was so much shame attached to it. So I had to fabricate a character that was positive, something that would not be rejected and might be liked because I knew I'd put everyone off so I wouldn't have any friends. I wouldn't have. I don't have any friends now, so it's self fulfilling anyway. But there's just so much shame in there. And so I couldn't bear to be myself.

[A]

You've had some kind of huge epiphany five years ago that your life up until that point has been a kind of lie. The life of someone else. Not yourself, not your true self.

[B]

The one I thought I needed to be, to be loved and liked and be popular and all that. It was like. It's almost like pre rejection. I was convinced I would always be rejected. And in the end, I was completely rejected. So I was right.

[A]

I see.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Who instilled that thought that you. You thought you were always going to be rejected.

[B]

I knew I wasn't right. I've always known I wasn't right. What kind of family I come from. And I. I've been trying to use my personality, intelligence, anything that I can mask it with. And so you do everything. You work overtime to make sure they never spot it. It's exhausting. Eventually, I guess what happened five years ago, I just couldn't keep up that game anymore.

[A]

Okay. I'm still interested in playing the. Playing the joyful advocate here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, God's advocate. God's advocate. You know, look, you're still here. You're on a bench.

[B]

I'm only here just.

[A]

But you are still here.

[B]

Yeah, I am. It's because of my wife, you know.

[A]

What have you got? Right.

[B]

Yeah. That's a really difficult one to answer because I see my life as a whole load of deluded mistakes. Mistakes purely because I didn't know who I was. And so I make a decision for someone else. But character. I thought I was. Yeah. But no matter what I did, I ended up here. So it's not that I got anything right. It's more that if I can survive this. Probably not a bad thing to have the truth come out, but I don't know whether I can survive the truth. Yeah. I feel persecuted. I feel overly vulnerable, like a man with no skin. So there's too much sensitivity in there. I could just dial that down. I don't know. It might go through this. But. Yeah, so.

[A]

But you.

[B]

But. Okay.

[A]

I'm gonna force you. There must be something in the last five years you've got. Right.

[B]

Come on. Saying yes to this interview, the only one.

[A]

The only single one. I mean, how. You've got a wife.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You say that she got you through.

[B]

I've got.

[A]

That sounds like that was a decision you made.

[B]

Yeah. That one thing. I did go right. So. Yeah. Recognizing my wife was the one good thing. Yeah.

[A]

How did you recognise it? How did you find that?

[B]

I don't know. Because I nearly blew it, to be honest with you. At the beginning, I played all Sorts of silly games because I was scared when I met her because I knew she was pretty wonderful and kind and up like me, really, in the end, but I knew she was a really decent woman. Yeah. Friend.

[A]

How long ago was that?

[B]

30 years.

[A]

30?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, fantastic.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So she.

[B]

I've dragged her to hell back. And I feel so bad about that.

[A]

Well, you must have given her. You must have given her some light because otherwise she would. She would not be still around.

[B]

No. Yeah. It's because she's so good. It's because she's such a big heart.

[A]

But she also must see the good in you.

[B]

Yeah, she does. She does.

[A]

So that. That way, you know, it's. You know, you know, it's there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You had this big realization five years ago, but she was a person that crossed over, so, you know, that bit wasn't a lie.

[B]

No, no. She's been the one true thing. Yeah. It was way ahead of me. It was me in the future, in a way.

[A]

Oh, that's interesting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What part did she play in helping you get to that moment?

[B]

She played a big part because I couldn't bear to think that I was causing her suffering. And I think that's what broke it, really, that I was beginning to think that I was arming her with my embitterment, my sense of shame. I'm fine. I don't give a shit about me, but I'm doing this to this beautiful woman, you know, I think that's what did it.

[A]

So what are her great strengths in.

[B]

Hers? She's just got a huge heart. She doesn't even realize it herself. And I think she's forgiving, which I haven't experienced a lot of in my life. Forgiveness, including from me. So it's just that bigness. It feels so claustrophobic, all of this. And keep spacious, you know, I think that's what the heart brings the mind just shocks you in the room.

[A]

Let's go backwards a bit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You at 30 years old. What were you doing with your time?

[B]

Getting stoned a lot. I used to work as a photographic assistant, experimenting, like we do, trying to find out who I was, but kind of trying to force who I was. Never had a lot of friends. My brother, who now have nothing to do with. He walked away.

[A]

Any other siblings?

[B]

No, that's just him. Okay. Unfortunately.

[A]

Did you have any pleasant times with him as a youngster? Was it ever good?

[B]

No, never good. Never good.

[A]

Any pleasant times at all as a youngster?

[B]

Yeah. I used to like nature a lot. Yeah. Okay. I'D always be on my own. Yeah. But I'd love nature, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

What did that look like?

[B]

I loved animals. I just loved animals, possibly instinctively, because I thought they don't harm you, you.

[A]

Know, unless it's a bear in the woods. Have you had any bear encounters?

[B]

No, no, no. But I wouldn't blame them if they ate me, you know, that's what they do. And if you get eaten by a shark, that's what they do.

[A]

I have an image of you to be kind of swallowed by a shark. Your last words as people approach you. That's what they do.

[B]

So where were we? Sorry.

[A]

Yeah, you as a nature. I like the image of you in nature. So what are we talking? Was there a specific place you would go?

[B]

Anywhere. Anywhere in nature, yeah. As long as I wasn't at home.

[A]

And you just bolt out the door, off you go to.

[B]

Yeah, I'd never be at home. Yeah. I'd come home like midnight. Oh, wow. As a kid, you know what.

[A]

What would you be doing till midnight in.

[B]

In nature?

[A]

Are we talking words that we talking fields?

[B]

I come from Gibraltar, so I. I used to go to the beach and I. I'd be in like on the rock and. Or playing football with friends who. Then I'd kind of clamp and wouldn't let them go home because I'm not going home. But I, I. Yeah, I'd avoid going home a lot.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah. Home was.

[A]

I mean, was it. It sounds like it wasn't great.

[B]

It was a dark place. Yeah.

[A]

Can.

[B]

You.

[A]

You don't have to.

[B]

Depressing. Yeah, very depressing and lifeless and totally regimented and mechanistic. So I couldn't breathe. I had to get out of experiment and explore. And then I felt myself.

[A]

The regimented came from both parents or one.

[B]

Yeah, both, essentially from my father. But my mum, you know, was regimented as well. Very mechanistic, very lifeless. So fighting for a kid, actually. So the family is completely dysfunctional and broken and we've all turned on each other, you know, there was nothing.

[A]

Any pleasant family times. If you. If I had to put you on the spot and say, was there any.

[B]

I loved my granddad. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[A]

What do you like about your granddad?

[B]

So funny and wise. But he was human. He was really human. My father was born illegitimately, so he was not his real father, but he was more family to me than any of the other actual blood relatives.

[A]

So these blood relatives, eh?

[B]

I know they are a. They are a proper. They are, yeah.

[A]

I mean, in a dream world. I mean, someone would have knocked her door and go, look, you can come and choose someone else. You know, these guys aren't right for you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's just sometimes the case.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

It's such a horrible thing that we have to endure that from. That obviously can't help but just shape everything.

[B]

Yeah, that's right.

[A]

And you had no choices the matter.

[B]

No. And also, you're so malleable as a kid, cuz you're not conceptual. So it's all going indirect into your unconscious. Yeah. And you've got no choice and you.

[A]

Can'T really process it.

[B]

You're just taking it all. There's no processing until you get older and it all just comes shooting up and then you're.

[A]

Five years ago.

[B]

Five years ago, exactly. Yeah. Is that.

[A]

Is there anger at parents?

[B]

Yeah. I think what I realized is I've been angry the whole of my life. Oh, wow. Yeah.

[A]

But it's just not gone anywhere.

[B]

It's not gone anywhere. But I realized that actually the only purpose it served was to make me feel like I was powerful. It's just part of my Persona to just go straight to anger. And it's a great way of covering up how vulnerable and insecure and fragile I feel with the shame and the sadness.

[A]

What does your anger look like?

[B]

It, you know, it's not convincing anyone. I always feel the fear behind it, so it always feels like a bluff. It feels like I'm angry, but I'm actually hysterically frightened. What.

[A]

What are you frighted of then?

[B]

It's a good question. I think it's something in me. You know, I'm frightened of that coming out. Yeah. You know, I got a glimpse of it. That cruelty and that violence in that voice that had. When I had the breakdown I had five years ago.

[A]

Do you think you've ever been cruel to anyone that isn't yourself? I mean, do you?

[B]

Yeah, I've been cruel to my wife. Yeah. And I've been cruel to most people I've ever known, I think.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. I think I'm a cool person. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

How does that take? If you say you.

[B]

I want payback.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Can you kind of give an example of a cruelty that you've done, that you've stayed with you?

[B]

I think it's a lack of empathy. I don't feel the person that I'm talking to. And so, like, for example, me and Caroline get into an argument, I'll carry on because I get locked into the mental point of it without feeling the heart at all it's like I become a very sadistic lawyer. But really what's behind it is I feel pissed off how my life is and who I am and what I've become. One of the phrases I kept on having when I had my breakdown was built to fail. I feel like I've been built to fail. It's like one of these toys or whatever, it's sent out and it be recalled. Yeah, recalled, exactly. Faulty. Yeah.

[A]

Get a full refund.

[B]

Yeah. The leg don't work. It doesn't really walk properly. So that, that created a lot of resentment.

[A]

You feel like you are an empathetic person. Do you get.

[B]

I mean, I think I'm a good person deep down. It always upsets me when I say that because I don't like saying it. But I really do think I'm a good person deep down. I think there's so much shit on top of me. And I've been. Told you. And I do think I really care about people, but I hate them. I hate them because I can't care. It's like people are defending themselves. Like I defended myself. So you can never reach anyone. Like it's a closed off world. That's what I loved about meeting Carolina for the first time ever and it was very difficult. But someone actually let me in. It's like I've been knocking on doors the whole of my life. No, not you. You stink. Fuck off, you're a leper. That's how I felt. I felt like I'd been dragging around disease and stink. Self loathing, really, because of the early start, just made me feel what's the positives here.

[A]

So you were basically walking around approaching everyone with this kind of this heavy self loathing energy.

[B]

Heavy.

[A]

And of course, in a sense, of course you're rejected.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They could feel that because no one wants that.

[B]

No, no one wants that.

[A]

And I think people.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

I think as humans.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, we see so many different faces, we take in so many different energies all the time. And I genuinely believe we're all very good at reading what that is. We've been put off really believing in that because we believe knowing is kind of factual. Knowing. Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Provable.

[A]

You know.

[B]

But actually your instincts are kicking in, aren't they?

[A]

The instincts that never. That never stops.

[B]

No. So we're kind of almost like domesticated dogs. Yeah. You've lost your wild instincts. We should be more like wolves, you know? Yeah. And that's what happened in a way. The breakdown. That wolf came out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the knowledge, stiff, kind of fragile character. So I'm going to get eaten by this wolf, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

But I would say now, you know, be with you on this bench. And honestly, I've done hundreds of these now met. There's so many people. I've talked to everybody. I've made it my life's work, really.

[B]

What drew you to. What was the calling?

[A]

What of people to do this? The calling, I suppose, is being as useful as you possibly can be with what you've got. I'm actually not a very skilled person, but I've always made the best of my skills.

[B]

So, you see, that's your knowledge talking, isn't it?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because you've just framed yourself as not a very skillful person. And I'm sitting on this bench thinking, this guy's got some skills.

[A]

I've got some skills interpersonally.

[B]

Maybe you have some skills in other ways as well.

[A]

I probably do. I probably do. Mostly it's communication. I've used that with music. So I've communicated songs.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And that's.

[B]

Right, songs, yes.

[A]

And that's worked. I've been successful at that.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

But it's too easy to be drawn into what we're good at to get on paper.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, songs are lovely.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Great. But this is what I believe is the purest of what I can make with my abilities. And I've always thought to trade. I've did it, you know, I did it anyway.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I did it on chains, I did it on bus. I would always test myself out. Could I do it here, could I do it there? Yeah, I always tried.

[B]

Do you think you've got an unusual capacity for intimacy?

[A]

That's a really good question. Yes and no. You could argue that actually, my ability to do this means I'm actually lacking in some areas. Intimacy.

[B]

I'll give you a quote there, which is, we're best at teaching what we're most need to learn. So maybe you are good at intimacy because it's what you most need to learn.

[A]

I think I am good. I think I am really good at it. But also, if I was too good at intimacy now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think I would be lost in your emotion.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What makes me potentially good at this, you know, is whoever I'm up against, whoever is here, whatever their background, whatever their situation, I can see it as a bird sees it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, as in I can see it as someone flying, a buffer.

[B]

Overview. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I can see it like a kestrel sees it. And that Means that I can not get lost in it.

[B]

That's it. Yeah. You've got a level of detachment there.

[A]

Which is really important.

[B]

Yeah. You know, but do you. Do you find. Because that's probably what I'm driving at. Do you find that you see yourself as you give these interviews?

[A]

No, I'm not thinking about myself at all. I'm just like. I'm trying to just take in as much as I can from as many pictures.

[B]

I'll frame it differently. Do you feel that as you. Your focus is totally on me and you're detached, but you're also intimate. But as you do it, you get a sense of you. It's almost like a spirit. You see your spirit. You feel. No, you feel. No, you don't see.

[A]

I think you do. Crucially, if you enter what I call this kind of middle realm, this middle bubble where we can both put our heads in. Into it, and if you can get into there, then you do see yourself really beautifully and you see the use of yourself. You see what you can do as a human with another human. They also see that. You both see it. The middle bubble happens.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Actually, both was quite a good analogy. Or is it metaphor? Whatever. Because I think it's. When we depart, I'm not going to be connected to you. I'll be thinking about you. But, you know, but this will be. This is it. So I feel like.

[B]

And that's where the detachment comes in, isn't it? There's no clinging or hanging on.

[A]

Yes. Yeah, exactly.

[B]

That's something I've never been able to do. Yeah. Always get stuck on everything.

[A]

Stuck in the.

[B]

So I get clingy straight away. Yeah, yeah. So that's that insecurity and shame. Because I see people very independent. I see people that are confident and they go in, they come out. Whereas me, I'm always longing, constantly starving. And it's because of all that in my childhood where just didn't get the basics. So I've gone into my adulthood not realizing I was longing, longing, longing and torturing myself. No, no. I'm independent. So this is pretense of being independent. I don't need you. And ending up on my own, you know.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

There's a weird kind of silly game that the mind has trapped me in there of asserting something I actually crying out for. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

If anything goes wrong with the exam, he can. You know, I mean, it's like not brain science. Before I started all that, we got onto the. I had a point I was gonna make, but I'm not gonna. I say it because I, I believe it. I was about to say.

[B]

Yeah, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I've.

[A]

I've seen all these energies. I felt these energies.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't think you have a heavy energy anymore.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Or at least if you think you do, it's not as bad as you think it is.

[B]

No.

[A]

It's not as heavier bag.

[B]

No.

[A]

As it was.

[B]

No.

[A]

You know, it's more of a. It's more of a fanny pack than.

[B]

That's right. Yeah.

[A]

A full on army.

[B]

Yeah, that's right.

[A]

Army bag.

[B]

Yeah. So there is optimism in that. In the sense that, you know, it's reducing in size.

[A]

Yeah. So that's, that's it. That's really. I mean that. And that is, you know, that's something. Maybe it will only just reduce the size as you go on. Can you think of anything that would help it reduce in size that you could realistically do?

[B]

No, no, no, I can't. I always used to think that when I get older and I retire, everything will be all right, but peaceful. So I always longed to retire, you know.

[A]

And are you retired now?

[B]

Yeah, I'm retired now, yeah. Yeah. But it didn't work that way. That's when the troubles really began.

[A]

Okay. I mean this is me just, you know, shooting, you know, I could go through lots of steps where I say the next thing.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

But I may as well say because.

[B]

It'S still in my head.

[A]

You seem to me like an absolutely terr. Terrible candidate for retirement.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

The worst actually. Because I think anyone with this much self and self analysis, self reflections, the carrying of weights that you obviously do carry.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just. I just don't see any good of not having meaningful task in your life.

[B]

I've never really known where to put myself. I've always done a lot of deadbeat jobs and gone from one thing to another. Never found a vocation. Just been hiding out because I don't have that feel about myself. Yes. If you see what I mean.

[A]

I don't know, I think it's. I'm a big. Much of my partner's dismay sometimes. You know, I'm a big solutions guy.

[B]

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I think that's very true. I mean I do agree with your partner. I think sometimes when you bring in solutions, it's like I don't want to listen to you anymore.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Yeah. So you've got to keep the balance.

[A]

But that is not me now. This is. We're in this moment.

[B]

I know that I'm defending Your partner. Yeah.

[A]

You'll be happy. Just about, kind of. I don't think it's going to get any better. You just sitting and thinking. I feel like you've understood it. You received no love as a child, basically had to forge whole new identities. Realized those were five years ago.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And here we are. So it was a very basic way of doing it, but it's basically what it is. There's nothing kind of like, there's nothing incredibly complex about it really.

[B]

It's just very simple.

[A]

It's obviously incredibly unfortunate and unlucky and it's not your fault.

[B]

No.

[A]

How to play it now? Two thoughts came into my head. One, you've done a lot of like, obviously a lot of introspection. A lot. You know, in an odd way you've been studying.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And people who will listen to this will also be, I think helped by some of the stuff you've said. And in that sense what I'm saying, there's no reason why you couldn't help other people with mental based things. I mean there's just no point in not using yourself. I think if you don't use yourself, you suffer.

[B]

Sure. Yeah.

[A]

Like, and it, you know, we're here to be useful.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

At least I think we are.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think that's my general take. I think you've thought so carefully and so well about all these things and you've demonstrated a real understanding to me and a clarity of where you are and what you've been through, which is what you know, so many other people have also been through. I think the beauty of that would be that you're using something you struggled with. As in so that struggle hasn't been in vain and to use that for good. So that was a. That was the first thought.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Second one I suppose was just really busying yourself for something just instantly useful.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, like I don't know, go and work in a food bank or something. You know, just like take yourself out of yourself, see what other people are doing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's what I would do if I was you. Like, you know. Cause actually how old were you before five years ago, may I ask?

[B]

58, right? Yeah.

[A]

You look good for that age by the way, for the age you are now if you're five years old after 58. In those 58 years maybe actually you didn't get it as wrong as you thought you did. The point is actually you were busying yourself with other stuff, but there was a reason why you did that. That doesn't mean that busying yourself now is also necessarily a bad thing.

[B]

No, I see what you're saying. The point is you've had your association. Yeah.

[A]

And you can busy yourself with something really meaningful that helps other people.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I think it's sometimes good to get away from yourself sometimes as well. You spend all this time with yourself.

[B]

Ideal day.

[A]

And that's what you said.

[B]

Yeah. Get away from it.

[A]

So, like make that your ideal day as much as you can. So. Yeah, those are my two. Those are my instant two thoughts.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do any of those appeal?

[B]

Ask me. Yeah, of course. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in a sense, I think it's even the most deluded person. They really want to be useful, don't they? Yeah, yeah. But for whatever reasons, it is more complicated than that, isn't it? People end up on the streets and all the rest of it because they go into some downward spiral because they don't feel like they're part of society. And I guess that's what I came to in a way where I thought, well, how. How am I useful? You know, how. Yeah, well, you're not, you're right, you're.

[A]

Not useful on a bench.

[B]

No.

[A]

Unless this one. So you're useful now.

[B]

I'm useful.

[A]

You're useful right now.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

But pre microphone, there's very little use to what you're doing other than personal, you know, whatever.

[B]

But the point I'm making is that, you know, does make literal sense to go and be useful and go do whatever. Whatever. I guess I've not always found it that simple to figure that one out. Which is why I've never found a vocation. I never found anything. Yeah.

[A]

But again, I just think just even the idea of vocation is a bit of a nonsense.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

I mean, what does it mean? You know, it means one person tied to one thing. We're all many different things.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So the sense of vocation is itself nonsense.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think once you pass that thought, just fill your time with as much usefulness as you can, you know, that's assuming you don't need. You're okay money wise.

[B]

Yeah. You're fairly all right. Yeah. Okay.

[A]

Well then, you know, you'll meet people and you'll be useful and you'll feel good.

[B]

I think the point that the difficulty is, I'm not denying what you're saying, but you've had a lot of experiences by the time you get to this age. And. And so then your mind almost builds up a case on you and say, well, yeah, but that's all very good. But there was this. And was. There was that.

[A]

And it was that, you know, us.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[A]

We simply can't do it.

[B]

No. But also just the fact that, you know, there's lots of experiences where there is a lot of rejection. The sense of. Well, I just wanted to join in because, I mean, I was like that as a kid. I just wanted to join in. But it's not that simple because people are very. People, kind of cliquey. They're kind of gangy and tribey. They are.

[A]

That's what people are like.

[B]

Yeah. And I feel like one of these characters, like Free Radical or whatever it's called. I don't know what. It doesn't fit in anything. It kind of like in between.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

It's just. I just don't feel I've ever been able to get into any kind of group. And I've tried. I have tried. Let me assure you.

[A]

I can really.

[B]

I really chucked myself out that wall. I'm sick of it. And in a way, I kind of went my own way after that. Why is that? Why am I never good enough? All you want to do is be included. Yeah. It's not being negative or anything like that. It's like, I know some of the things that are the blockers. Even though what you're saying is actually, as. You're right. Absolutely basic. It is absolutely basic.

[A]

No, I get that, but you have.

[B]

To then at the same time see all the kind of unconscious blockers, partly through experience and partly from childhood as well. Yeah. Yeah. I think the reason why I always go on about group and I'm kind of obsessed about groups is because I think I've always been trying to recreate family.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Yeah. Which I didn't realize, by the way, originally, I didn't realize that's why I was chucking myself at all these groups. You know, can I join your group? Can I join your group? And it kind of goes wrong there. Yeah, it does go wrong, because you are trying to superimpose your nature of family, and it's just not going to work. You can't do that to a group. So that's been a lot of sticking points.

[A]

I completely see that.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

You said to me earlier, you don't have any friends.

[B]

No.

[A]

I'm just trying to figure out why that is that, you know, I really enjoy talking to you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm just like, why would other people not enjoy.

[B]

I don't want to do it full time.

[A]

Well, Maybe not, but I mean, I would. I can't think of like kind of.

[B]

You end up destroying a lot of friendships. That's how you not get friends.

[A]

Yeah, but how do you. I mean, how are you destroy. How are you destroying them? You see, like someone that's not going to do anything kind of like overly rash or.

[B]

I mean, I do do overly rash. Really? Yeah. Yeah. The tension builds up in me and then I do something kamikaze. Wow. Okay. It's kind of like totally self destructive. Yeah.

[A]

So I think, what can you give? Can you give?

[B]

Yeah, I'll write someone. I've had enough or something. I was like, you know, it's like, do you really even like me or whatever. Or whatever. And. And I'll write a sort of foul email.

[A]

I see.

[B]

And I say, we'll never see each other again. Done that throughout. I've got a whole track record of that. Yeah. Because, you know, although I'm reasonable and everything, when I flip all that stuff. Yeah. Just comes out. Yeah. And that's. That's where you see your own darkness, your own self destructiveness. But also destructive towards others.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So a pattern. McKeeson. Almost automatic. I'm on autopilot.

[A]

Do people take this when you send these foul emails?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do people ever look past them and go, look, this is him just doing his thing again?

[B]

No, they take it literally.

[A]

No, they do work.

[B]

Yeah, they do work. Yeah. Yeah. And then I regret when you see that. It's a pretty well known cycle, isn't it, where you do something very destructive like that and then you feel the shame afterwards and you regretted it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think I probably always regretted all of them. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Interesting. But you've made those friends initially, so that's also interesting.

[B]

Yeah. When I was a lot younger, I don't. That doesn't really happen so much. So it's easier to make friends when you're younger as you get older, you know, they tend to just not replace in terms of all that. Yeah. So there's a sense of your. It does feel like your life is dying somewhat, you know, in that flow. Energy. Energy flow. Yeah. That sounds a bit dark and tragic as well. I know, but that's how it feels. I can't be truthful how it feels. It might be wrong, it might be deluded, it might be overly dark, but it feels like the tide's going out.

[A]

Yeah, I get it.

[B]

There might be new ones. I'm not discounting that. Yeah.

[A]

I also think that sometimes you listen to people talking.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you listen to their words, but you feel a different.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Intention and energy. And I'm hearing you say words obviously makes sense. I get it. I get the words.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But also there's like a aliveness to you. There's aliveness in the way you're saying them. There's a vitality to them that says to me. That says to me, I've got energy to give.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I feel like there's. I don't know, it's just. There's room there. There's room there. I just think, don't give that up. I think, you know, put yourself in position.

[B]

It's interesting what you're saying that about. I'm talking about, you know, dark, deathly things, and yet there's this vitality. Yeah.

[A]

And they're so clear.

[B]

Paradox, isn't it?

[A]

Yeah, but they're so clear.

[B]

I can feel it.

[A]

There is love to give, basically, simple as that. There is love to give in you.

[B]

And the thing that blocks it is the idea or the. The trauma of pre. Rejection. Yeah. So that thought form just stops me from moving forward.

[A]

But I feel like if. If there's anything beautiful in the world, there is. Like it is connection and potential friendship and. And what that can mean. Yeah, I don't think anyone's that far away. Do you still take photographs?

[B]

No, No, I stopped completely. Yeah.

[A]

What did you retire from when you retired?

[B]

Well, I had some crappy cleaning business at the time. Office cleaning was just part time. Yeah.

[A]

You had the business or you were cleaning yourself?

[B]

Yeah, it was my own. My own business. Yeah.

[A]

Businessman. You're a businessman?

[B]

No.

[A]

Entrepreneur?

[B]

Not at all. No, it was. Yeah, it was just really basic, the bare minimum. Because I never really wanted to work that much, so.

[A]

Yeah, but you sat there. Well, you set that up, though.

[B]

Yeah, originally. Yeah. Yeah. I had time to myself in that. In those days. I wanted time to myself, you know, But I've never ever been that connected to work. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, a lot of people aren't.

[B]

Yeah, a lot of people don't. Yeah. I mean, my dad, all he ever did was work. So they're related. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, I'm always thinking about work or something. I'm always asking people about work on the bench and, you know, because it is mad.

[B]

It is.

[A]

And it is to an extent, obviously, in the modern world and invention.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I spoke to my friend Ryan today on the phone. It's Ryan's birthday today.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And. And I said, you know, so what are you doing today? And he just said, well, I'm just going to the office. Maybe it's just the way he said it, because he isn't a super officey person. Just really struck me. And you're like, that's awful.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's his birthday. I mean, if any of any time, you shouldn't be going into doing something that someone else wants you to do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To make money for them. Obviously. You're making money for yourself, but you're making more money for them, you know, like, what a. What a world where that's just almost also, I suppose, what's painful about it. It's almost unspoken. Yeah. Of course he's going into the office.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There isn't any other option.

[B]

Of course he is. He's got no option.

[A]

Who am I to say, don't go into the office or do something else.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's the unthinkiness of it which got me.

[B]

Well, it's mechanistic and. And then your resentment build up and you feel trapped and all the rest of it and then, you know, all the stuff that comes out when you're older.

[A]

What do you have for breakfast?

[B]

Toast and coffee, I think it was. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

What do you have on your toes?

[B]

Peanut butter and marmalade. Mmm. Yeah.

[A]

What brand of peanut butter?

[B]

It's whole earth. Yeah. Smooth, not crunchy. Oh, okay.

[A]

Fantastic.

[B]

How about you?

[A]

Sometimes you have a problem, Like, a problem which is not really a problem, but it is, like, small problem.

[B]

Just.

[A]

I just sometimes can't help myself but just eat peanut butter straight from the tub.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's a bit gross, but sometimes you eat, so, like, too much of it, it gets a bit kind of claggy in your mouth.

[B]

Oh, God.

[A]

That's had too much.

[B]

Much. When you spoon it out.

[A]

Yeah, you spoon it out.

[B]

All right.

[A]

And the one I. The one I choose to have is called Manny Life.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know that. It's a free advert for that one. Okay.

[A]

If Rose. If Rose keeps us in. Hi, Rose. Say hi to Rose. Rose edits this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So when there's. When there's a kind of edit point, I sometimes remember Rose. She'll be listening to. This is a funny thought to know that someone will be listening to you months previous.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

It's like a little kind of time capsule.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's kind of time thing, you know, it's the autumn.

[B]

Do you like the autumn?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, it's beautiful, isn't it? I do.

[A]

As a kind of. Not a huge summer fan.

[B]

No, I'm not. I can't Stand the summer.

[A]

Oh, there we go.

[B]

Perfect. Yeah. I can't stand.

[A]

Oh, I like.

[B]

It doesn't either.

[A]

Tell me why.

[B]

It's the heat. It's the sun. I prefer something a bit more middling, you know. Yeah. It feels like pressure.

[A]

It does, though. You're right, actually.

[B]

There's a tyranny. There's a tyranny of it. Yeah. And then the kind of. There's almost a drunkenness in people's psyche in the summer over the top. And so I kind of like something a bit more sober, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's got a whole energy about it this summer. Yeah. It's been like that for a long time.

[A]

It's been like that for a long time.

[B]

It has, yeah.

[A]

As if there's a moment.

[B]

Yeah. There's been a lot of summers. Yeah, a lot of summers.

[A]

Pre the summers, it was a difference. But when summers came in.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

It's been out for a long time, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Actually, it's funny you should mention. I'm really glad this.

[B]

I'm surprised because usually people shut you down when it comes to the summer.

[A]

Summer chat. No, I'm. I'm actually.

[B]

People think you're. You're. You know, something wrong with you. I don't like people who don't like summer, so immediately get that. They think, oh, people who don't like summer are miserable. So it's like code, you know? Right.

[A]

I just totally get you. I just think it's like such a. You know, you see a bright hot day and everyone's going, so what are we. Where are we going? What are we doing?

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

It needs. It's. It's commanding you to go. Go and worship me.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Why? I really like that you think that and that I think that. And that we're here now in, you know, definitely in it. Is that doing these bench conversations typically.

[B]

Oh, that's.

[A]

That'll be. She's back again.

[B]

Her outdoors. Hi there. Yeah, I'll be another five minutes. Yeah, I'll be with you. Yeah. And I'll walk down to you in about five minutes or so. Yeah. Okay. See you in a while then. Bye. Yeah, it's fantastic.

[A]

We've got five minutes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was about to say.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Autumn.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was saying how most people are on benches in the summer.

[B]

Yeah. Right.

[A]

And since it's been awesome and a bit colder, I haven't been out as much.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, haven't done it for a week or so now it's firmly into autumn. It's nice. The first person I stumble across is someone that actually is kind of almost enjoying it. Because it is autumn.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And may have not been there in the summer, which I quite like that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So it's kind of like a. It's a reminder to get out there in all the seasons because you're going to get different people at different.

[B]

Including winter as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So we've got what, you know, we've got four minutes to go.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The timer is running. Wife is calling. What should we do in these. In these. In these four minutes? What's the. What site have you seen recently do you deem the most pure something you felt was just untouched, a sight, Something you've seen, you know, in the flesh, not on a screen.

[B]

I think it was yesterday, actually, and it was at British Museum and there was this tiny little boy running along towards a. Like a plinth with a statue on it of a man with a horse. And he was so sweet. Must have been about four or five years old. And he was running all just innocent and naive and thoughtless and unselfconscious. And his grandma was kind of keeping a protective eye over him, but she was. Had a smile on her face and it's a kind of romantic image I would normally not get into at all, but it just felt so pure and it was. It was really, really beautiful here. It was really innocent and pure, like you say. I think I connected with it somehow. It's something I normally block out, you know.

[A]

But you didn't block it out yesterday?

[B]

I didn't block it out. I wondered why I was looking at it, but it was just. It was just a moment. This kind of like parted the waves and it was just. That's it. It was like an image. It wasn't. Wasn't something I was looking at. It was like filmic, dreamlike. And it was. Because the purity you're talking about, and normally very skeptical of, as you can imagine, relationships between parents or grandparents and children, but that just felt like she's not overpowering him. He feels genuinely free. He's just lost and she's lost in him. And it was just beautiful. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

That's a lovely description.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, great.

[A]

It's almost as if you knew the next day someone was going to ask you for the pure moment.

[B]

Well, I still have a sort of filmic eye. Yeah. No, I. I see things like that.

[A]

I like to take from that, that, you know, that maybe something is lifting in you. Anyway, that's love.

[B]

Nice to meet you. Yeah. You know it's good to talk to you. Okay.

[A]

Last. No. Well, pronouncement question. We got probably, what, a minute left, I guess.

[B]

Yeah, it's about. It's about now here.

[A]

How have you found what surprised you about talking to a stranger on a bench?

[B]

I think the nice thing about it, if it is a surprise, is I felt in a good way, like I disappeared a bit, you know. In a good way. Yeah. So, like, you used the word lifting a minute ago. I think you did, didn't you? Yeah. Lifted to. Yeah. Sometimes things are so concrete, aren't they? And it does feel more spacious. I always associate the heart with spaciousness, so it felt pretty hearty. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe the spaciousness has surprised me. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

That's the very nice way of describing it.

[B]

You know, that whole bubble idea you've got, it made me realize why I do connect with it. But I think thought this quite some time ago, what we all miss. And it maybe does relate to the thing you said a minute ago about your friend Ryan there isn't terrible. His birthday, he's going to the office. What I go with the answer to your. What I found surprising about this, that every now and then I think what sounds. It's hard to describe it, but I think magic is the most important thing in the world. And so children have a much more easy connection with magic. But I think that bubble you're talking about is about entering into magic, and then the magic then is put away again when the bubble is put away. And in a way, you have to be naked enough and small enough to enter that bubble if you're going to really hit the magic. So. But the thing about the magic is that it does open your heart, you know, And I think we experience magic really naturally when we're young. And then it goes. So.

[A]

But also just what you're saying about.

[B]

Ryan, and that looks like it's his birthday, so he's like a little boy again, but he's. He's an adult, so he's dragging his ass to the office. And I think we really have lost a lot of magic in this world and. And cinema brings that in, and your dreams and your art and your creativity. And maybe that's why I experienced when I was young, being in nature. I. I saw magic in. In. In animals and nature. Yeah. And it just got. It got lost too quickly, you know, But I haven't lost it deep down.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So this has seemed magical to me. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Beautifully said. My only thought on top of that was that, yeah, you know we lose it, but it doesn't mean it's not there.

[B]

No, it's always there. It's there, it's always there. You can't kill it. Yeah. It's what we really are. Magic. Yeah. Woof. Yeah.

[A]

The last question I ask people is, what are they going to do next?

[B]

Just going into town. My wife, actually. Yeah? Yeah. How about you?

[A]

Well, I am gonna have a tin of canned fish.

[B]

Wouldn't have expected that as an answer.

[A]

I like to have a tin of fish with me when I'm doing the benches.

[B]

Brilliant.

[A]

So I don't have to stop someone for lunch. I can just do it quickly and then. Yeah, it's going to be, it's going to be a hard, odd follow up from this. But I, I, I've got the afternoon, so see who else is out there.

[B]

Yeah. Right, Right. You confess to them that you eat peanut butter out of a bucket as well.

[A]

Exactly. Now I've, now I've got that in the open, I can really.

[B]

You can freely, regularly confess it.

[A]

It's been really great.

[B]

Yeah. And you've got. Really a pleasure to meet you. Yeah.

[A]

And thank you for being just yourself and just giving it, giving it everything.

[B]

Which is the key. Yeah. And you. Yeah.

[A]

That's when good stuff happens.

[C]

Smoking on the beach Slipping out of.

[B]

Reach.

[C]

Just a moment ago. The tide is coming in and drowning everything I never learned to swim. Out of my depth out of my depths out of my depths out of my depth. Who swam away from whom the tides on the moon Whose song am I to sing now? A wave so high I can't remember why I never let us swim down. I'm out of my depth out of my depth out of my depth out of my depth. I'm out of my depth out of my depth out of my depth out of my depth. Out of my death. I could see magic everywhere Just not here now. I could see magic everywhere it's just not here now.