EPISODE 71: All Plumbers Are Philosophers

Summary

Strangers on a Bench – Episode 71: All Plumbers Are Philosophers
Host: Tom Rosenthal
Date: January 19, 2026

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Episode Overview

Tom Rosenthal invites an 18-year-old stranger (anonymous, as always) to share a bench and a conversation in a park. The discussion quickly deepens from light icebreakers into weightier themes—personal philosophy, faith, family expectations, self-discovery, and the joys and challenges of growing up in a traditional household while walking a path toward self-understanding. The episode is thoughtful and humane, balancing introspective moments with humor and genuine connection.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Opening: Connection and Ramen Thursdays

• Tom asks about the stranger’s favorite day of the week, revealing an affection for Thursdays rooted in “Ramen Thursdays” with a school friend:
  • “Every Thursday we used to get those small packets of ramen and then go home and watch a movie. We used to call them Ramen Thursdays.” (01:09)
• The day retains meaning in college, as it marks the end of the academic week for the guest.

Philosophy, Thoughtfulness, and Sonder

• The guest describes a habit of taking solitary, extended walks to ponder life’s big questions, inspired not by events but by accumulated experiences and introspection.
  • “I used to make it [the walk] longer. Yeah, I'd say 15 minutes, but…I used to come to this park.” (02:22)
  • Tom notes Nietzsche’s affinity for walking as a catalyst for thinking.
• The philosophy reading leads the guest to embrace sonder—realizing the “complex life of their own” in others—fostering greater empathy.
  • “If someone came up to me with a ridiculous idea, but they really believed it, I can never really just throw it away.” (04:36)

Struggles with Belief: Determinism, Faith, and Family

• The guest explains their tug-of-war between determinism (the idea everything is predestined) and free will, especially in the context of faith raised in a Muslim household:
  • “Maybe it's just your experiences caused you to say this or think this.” (06:23)
• They express an open, searching stance rather than clinging to a single worldview.
• Tom shares his own views on making meaning in a seemingly nonsensical world:
  • “You just have to bring it. I personally favor bringing meaning something rather than picking something up of a shelf that someone else has already prepared.” (08:13)

Family, Mistakes, and Communication

• A poignant segment covers unique family dynamics—a reticent household regarding affection and difficult but well-intentioned parental expectations:
  • “[My biggest mistake was] I don’t really say ‘I love you’ to [my parents] that much…But then it’s their first time living as well…It’s their first time on this earth parenting and everything like that.” (11:05)
• The guest struggles with traditional familial ambitions (footballer, doctor, etc.) and his own perceived failures, eventually choosing a plumbing course in college, following in his father’s footsteps.

All Plumbers Are Philosophers

• The episode’s title emerges as Tom observes a trend of philosophical plumbers in his own circle, suggesting perhaps there’s a hidden wisdom in practical trades:
  • “Maybe all plumbers are philosophers. You never know.” (15:10)

Religion and Questioning Faith

• The guest describes a nuanced relationship with their inherited religion—honoring family tradition but feeling increasingly disconnected personally:
  • “I wouldn’t say I am [a Muslim] now. It’s just I am by label… I don’t think I have the strength to do that, to be entirely honest. I don’t think I have the courage to, you know, say, hey, this is nice. I have my own thoughts.” (22:09-22:19)
• They admire certain aspects of Islam, especially teachings about intention, while openly struggling with paradoxes about free will and predestination.

Friendships & Wanting New Perspectives

• The guest notes that 90% of his friends are Muslim and expresses a desire for more diverse friendships and experiences (“Where are my fishing friends?” (27:51)).
• Tom underscores the value of meeting people from different backgrounds:
  • “There’s nothing more important than trying new stuff, meeting people from different walks of life…” (28:05)

Romantic Firsts

• The conversation turns to romance, first dates, and the joy of experiencing a first kiss:
  • “I felt really loose, you know…Let’s say, for example, I was wearing a mountain on my back. I feel like that mountain just got lifted off my back…just really in love. Yeah, it was great.” (32:21-32:32)
• Despite uncertainty, the guest is grateful for the experience and reflects maturely on the impermanence of young love.

Gratitude, Nature, and Being Childlike

• Tom praises the guest’s rare ability to be present without a phone—a habit he encourages other young people to try.
  • “Nature is beautiful…they’re always keeping the flow going.” (34:45-35:04)
• On keeping a sense of playfulness and imagination in adulthood, the guest confesses a love for Minecraft and dreams of a simple cabin with friends (and fishing), revealing a deep appreciation for everyday joys.

Dreams, Gifts, and Poignant Gestures

• Talk turns to future ambitions—learning electric guitar, someday having it painted by the romantic interest. In a touching offer, Tom offers to buy the guest a guitar:
  • “I’m personally more than happy to buy you an electric guitar. Would you let me buy you one?” (37:08)
• The guest is moved—“Thank you, man. That means a lot to me…” (38:13)—emphasizing the transformative power of kindness and music.

A Room Remembered: Visualization Exercise

• Tom leads a “closing eyes” exercise, inviting the guest to recall a significant room from childhood:
  • The guest paints a picture of sneaking to watch The Walking Dead on TV—thrilled, fearful of being caught—a metaphor for low-stakes rebellion and the thrill of independence.
  • “It’s early in the morning…blue and black sofas…wooden hexagonal table…I’m checking if my mum and my dad are coming down the stairs because I’m not allowed to watch the show.” (39:23-40:32)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Sonder and Empathy

  “Everybody has such a complex life of their own…If someone came up to me with a ridiculous idea, but they really believed it, I can never really just throw it away.” – Stranger (04:36)

• On Meaning and Existence

  “You just have to bring [meaning to life]. I personally favor bringing meaning something rather than picking something up of a shelf that someone else has already prepared.” – Tom (08:13)

• On Family and Self-Worth

  “It feels like I’ve let my family down. And so I decided, you know what? Time to make something myself. I’m going to go to the Marines.” – Stranger (14:08)

• On the Philosophy of Plumbing

  “Maybe all plumbers are philosophers. You never know.” – Stranger (15:10)

• On Questioning Faith

  “It says that in the book that, like, you know, we do have free will, yet everything has already been decided and that God knows everything…I don’t really understand that, to be entirely honest.” – Stranger (24:02)

• On the First Kiss

  “Let's say, for example, I was wearing a mountain on my back. I feel like that mountain just got lifted off my back and I felt really loose…really free…” – Stranger (32:21)

• On Nature and Presence

  “Nature is beautiful, you know, it’s something like I could never look at and be bored of…they’re always keeping the flow going.” – Stranger (34:45)

• On Generosity and Dreams

  “I’m personally more than happy to buy you an electric guitar. Would you let me buy you one?” – Tom (37:08)

• On Early Rebellion

  “I’m checking if my mum and my dad are coming down the stairs because I’m not allowed to watch the show. And it’s really thrilling.” – Stranger (40:32)

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Timestamps for Significant Sections

• [01:09] – Ramen Thursdays and the significance of routine
• [02:09 - 03:09] – Origins of philosophical thinking during walks
• [04:36] – Influence of sonder and open-mindedness
• [05:32 - 06:38] – Wrestling with determinism, free will, and faith
• [11:05] – Family affection and expressing love
• [14:08] – Aspirations, expectations, and vocational choices
• [15:10] – “All plumbers are philosophers”
• [22:09] – Outgrowing or questioning one’s faith
• [32:21] – The emotional release of a first kiss
• [34:45] – Contemplation and the value of unplugging in nature
• [37:08] – Tom offers to buy the guest a guitar
• [40:32] – Childhood memory of sneaking to watch TV
• [42:00 - 44:34] – Episode winds down with music and reflection

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Summary

This thoughtful, winding conversation demonstrates the surprises and depth found in everyday encounters with strangers. The guest’s candid transparency about faith, family, and self-doubt is met with Tom’s warmth, humor, and gentle probing, making for an episode that’s both cathartic and hopeful. The kindness exchanged—whether in the form of advice, empathy, or the actual promise of an electric guitar—underscores the podcast’s ethos: even the most unassuming strangers on a bench have wisdom, yearning, and stories worth hearing.

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For listeners new and old, this episode is a testament to the profound connections possible between strangers, and the philosophy found in everyday life—sometimes, even in plumbing.

Transcript

[A]

Hello. Sorry to bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a go? Do you have a favorite day of the week?

[B]

Favorite day of the week? Honestly, Thursday. Strange.

[A]

That's a big honor to me.

[B]

Yeah, I was speaking to someone recently. Actually, it's quite strange because they asked me my favorite day of the week as well. Oh, really?

[A]

Yeah. Who is that rival out there?

[B]

It was a girl I was speaking to.

[A]

Okay. You know, in a romantic fashion.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

Yeah, she was like. She said her favorite day of the week was Wednesday. And I was like, yeah, I like Thursday. I think it's. When I was younger, I used to. When I was going through secondary school, I used to have a friend. Every Thursday we used to get those small packets of ramen and then go home and watch a movie. We used to call them Ramen Thursdays.

[A]

That's very sweet. Ramen Thursdays. So you still like Thursdays because of ramen Thursdays or just generally you're happy with a different reason?

[B]

I mean, in college now, Thursday is the last day of the week for me, and then Friday I get off. For some reason, Thursday's always just been a day where things just go really well for me. So. So, you know.

[A]

Fantastic.

[B]

Yeah, it's.

[A]

How did the rest of this conversation go with this lady you pursuing? What stage are we at?

[B]

She went to university, so we don't see each other much. However, we usually have conversations like this all the time about life, about like philosophy and everything like that. I'm really into philosophy. I got into philosophy around like 15 years old. Just kind of stopped.

[A]

What got you into it?

[B]

Kind of just long walks from school. I used to choose to walk home alone sometimes. And it just gave me. It gave me a lot of time to think. And then it just made me question life, you know?

[A]

Whoa. How long was this walk from school?

[B]

I mean, I used to make it longer. Yeah, I'd say 15 minutes, but, you.

[A]

Know, I love it. Not many people make a walk longer. That's actually very rare.

[B]

It's.

[A]

How did you just. What did you just do? Kind of weird spins and you walk really slowly.

[B]

I used to come to this park.

[A]

Did you?

[B]

Yeah, I used to come to this park. Walk around sometimes. Yeah. Walking slowly.

[A]

Also just contributing fact, a really slow walking philosopher. I think that is a thing. You know, they. I think it was Nietzsche said that all great, his great thoughts are conceived whilst walking. It's a thing.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

There meet some great walking philosophers out there, including you now. So you're 15, you start walking home. I mean, apart from just thinking about life, did any particular event mean that you started thinking about it more?

[B]

You know, I wouldn't say a particular event. It's an accumulation of events that happened like one after the other. Because to ask deeper questions about, like for example, when you talk about religion. Right. You have to ask the question of what a human being is in the first place. What makes up their thoughts, what causes them to. To make the decisions that human beings do. Because I used to do things on impulse and I started asking myself why I did half the things that I did. And then I. It just got, you know, what kind.

[A]

Of things we talk about impulse wise.

[B]

You know, you know, intrusive thoughts. An intrusive thought of like, you know, I'm gonna tell this person, have a great day, or something like that. You know, just a random stranger pops into my head and before I even have time to think about it, I just do it. And it made me question why I did the things. Exactly.

[A]

Okay. All right. Well, I mean, that's a good intrusive thought to say hi to Randy.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

So you're wandering around, you're 15. You start thinking about philosophical matters, life, the road you're on now. Because you're obviously not 15 anymore.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're still young, though.

[B]

We're all young.

[A]

Really. 18. Fantastic. So, yeah, actually there was. I thought you were a bit older, but that's cool.

[B]

Thanks, man.

[A]

I mean, you know, so from 15 to 18, can you think of anything you've done that's been affected by starting to think about philosophy at 15?

[B]

Oh, yeah. When I started to get into philosophy, I started realizing that everybody starts master. And then it kind of gets into the idea of sonder, where everybody has such a complex life of their own. So it occurred to me that if someone came up to me with a ridiculous idea, but they really believed it, I can never really just throw it away. For me, I would actually try and understand where the person is coming from, why they believe the things that they do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And just kind of take everything in with an open mind. So obviously I started to ask my friends questions and stuff like that, and it left me because in the situation, the situation I'm in right now, I'm very conflicted about what. What I believe, to be entirely honest, because so many.

[A]

Let's go through it what's the two sides?

[B]

Okay, you have. Have you ever heard of determinism? Yes, Determinism. The idea that everything is cause and effective. Like, you don't have a say in the decision that you make.

[A]

That's like, it was always gonna happen.

[B]

It was always gonna happen. Exactly. Like, you've also got the idea that you do have freedom in what you do. Like, they're all chains. Right. You know how chains have, like a, you know, connected one? Yeah. It's a chain of experiences. But you can choose which experience you have next. But then also I can say, oh, but what if the experiences in the past led you to decide to choose this experience? You understand what you follow? Yeah, it's strange. And then also you've got the religious side of things. I live in a Muslim household, so I'm conflicted with faith because faith is something deep inside of you that makes you. I have no reason to believe in this, but I am going to because I have faith. I have hope that there's, let's say, an afterlife or something like that. But then also, I could say it ties back into determinism. Maybe it's just your experiences caused you to say this or think this.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

It's very conflicting. It's. It's. I wouldn't say I have one specific belief that I. I'm stuck to. I'm kind of just, like, looking around, you know, just speaking to people, understanding what they believe and stuff. Like, If you wouldn't. If you wouldn't mind me asking, what would you say we are on this earth for? What would you say we are? Like, what's the mean?

[A]

Nice, easy question.

[B]

That one. Yeah.

[A]

Very straightforward. I've got. I've got the answer. Okay, look, I mean, I also remember when I was your age being really into philosophy, I still think in a weird way, I should be still now. So I'm glad that you've asked me.

[B]

No, it's fine.

[A]

But, yeah, for me, it's like a kind of nonsense, crazy miracle that makes no sense.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And obviously, because it is that people love things that make sense. You know, we are endlessly looking to understand everything, and then we stick to the things we can understand. I think. Do you see what I mean?

[B]

Yeah. Like religion and everything.

[A]

Yeah. It'd be a very difficult life to constantly be grasping for meaning, so we give it to ourselves. That doesn't necessarily mean it's right. It helps them get through life, which is really challenging for everybody. Right. It's a difficult life for everyone that goes past Us, you know, in different ways. There's lots to figure out. Yeah. Now the really boring answer to all this is I just think you've got to bring meaning to what you do.

[B]

I wouldn't say that's boring, you know. Yeah. I'd say that's.

[A]

You just have to bring it. I personally favor bringing meaning something rather than picking something up of a shelf that someone else has already prepared.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, I mean. Yeah, I mean, look, anybody could be right, I could be wrong.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Lots of religion. Fantastic. Right. There's so much, so many good things about religion. But you know, on the flip side, it is something you can pick off a shelf, you know, and they all tell you what they do. You go, I'll do that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You tend to pick ones, of course, that are related to family, which is even more like. You just fall into it rather than choosing it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I prefer just to bring my meaning to my own life. You see what I mean?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, as was. If you are here, which is incredibly lucky. Oh, yeah. Incredibly. It's insane the like the chances.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So if you are here for me, it's like almost a duty to kind of like to push it around a bit in the best possible way. Obviously you don't want to hurt anyone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But you want to, you know, you want to see what's possible. I don't know. Where do you sit with your own existence currently as an 18 year old? Now we're thrusting in it with the big questions. I mean like, how do you feel about being you at the moment?

[B]

Being me? Yeah, I love to be me, to be honest. Yeah. Waking up every morning.

[A]

Yeah, that's really good news. What can you say why?

[B]

I feel like everybody can handle what they've been given. The things that happen. Right. It's been put in front of us because we can tackle it and I feel like my life is mine to live. Your life is yours to live. Everybody's life is theirs to live. Nobody else can live your life. Yeah, I'm happy to be me.

[A]

What do you like about yourself?

[B]

The previous person I spoke to you about who asked me what my favorite day is? Yeah, they asked me the same thing.

[A]

Love interest.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, how are they asking you that as well?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I need to meet this person.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're thinking the same thoughts.

[B]

I wouldn't mind. I think, I think she do similar to me. Whereas she doesn't really have one specific belief at the moment. She's just searching play the field.

[A]

Believe.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah. I'd say I'd say, I believe I do my best to understand people. That's good. I would like to say that I do my best not to be biased and try and hear everything out. But you know, you do come across occasions where you just end up being biased, even if you don't mean to. But yeah, I mean, I think I'm really happy that I make the mistakes that I do because I feel like even a major mistake, I see a more of a learning curve. You know, if it means a lot to you, then still going to change something totally. Right.

[A]

Can you think of your last significant mistake or the most, if you want?

[B]

Yeah. I think one of my biggest mistakes was when it comes to my parents, I don't really say I love you to them that much because they don't say I love you to me a lot. So, you know, why should I? But then it's their first time living as well, you know, it's their first time on this earth parenting and everything like that. And if, for example, someone tells someone like good morning or good night, it's something that they want to hear themselves.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So if they don't really understand that, it's nice every once in a while to hear I love you. It's something I feel like I can initiate. I tell them I love you and then they understand that it's a thing that you can just say it's so.

[A]

How you saying they don't. They currently just don't really say it. No one says it.

[B]

They don't say it much. But I mean, it's. It's not just the idea that they have said it. They have said it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Before, but not that often.

[A]

Do you remember when?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, obviously for they happy, you can't remember.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It probably means they haven't for a while.

[B]

While. Yeah. But it's, you know, it's. It's just their parenting. But I. I like, for example, my sisters. Whenever they have problems or something like that, they come to me and it's nice. I'm glad I can be that person for them. However, I feel like I don't want my parents to regret anything when their day comes. Because the thing is with mistakes, this.

[A]

Doesn'T sound like that much of a mistake.

[B]

It doesn't sound like much of a mistake.

[A]

I mean, it's like your parents not telling you they love you isn't really your mistake.

[B]

Yeah. I would say obviously it's not entirely my fault, but I mean, I'd say I could change things.

[A]

You know, what if you're just More lovable.

[B]

Well, I mean, that's also a way to go about it. Yeah, that's a good point.

[A]

How often do you have kind of, you know, meaningful conversation with your parents? Like, sit down, just you and them or you and one.

[B]

One of them? Not much. Most of the time it's either a lecture. For example, my mum, I try and have a conversation with her and then whenever there's something that pops up that she doesn't like, she doesn't want to hear anything anymore.

[A]

What kind of thing wouldn't she like?

[B]

For example, I was planning on going to the Marines about two years ago. I was speaking to my mom about it and she just didn't want to hear me out whatsoever. Not change my mind, not this, not that. And it's just. It's unfortunate because, you know, it's the next step of my life that I was willing to take because for a long time I felt like I, you know, I felt like I was more of a failure to my family than anything else. I mean, you look at it now like it's a Muslim household. Yeah. I have beliefs of my own. My dad wanted me to become a footballer when I was younger. That passed. So he decided, you know what, maybe he's gonna become a doctor. That passed. I didn't do well on my GCSEs. It just. It feels like I've let my family down. And so I decided, you know what? Time to make something myself. I'm going to go to the Marines.

[A]

Just go to the Marines.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Just if in doubt.

[B]

If in doubt, go through the Marines. Yeah.

[A]

That should be an advert for the Marines.

[B]

Yeah, it would be great propaganda, to be honest.

[A]

You're not a footballer. And then. So what happened? I'm guessing you're not in the Marines.

[B]

Well, yeah, or in some of the Marines right now. But it was just like, if they don't like it, then why become more of a failure to my family? I might as well just choose something else. And now I'm doing plumbing in college, so, you know, it's. Is what it is what it is, to be entirely honest.

[A]

But by the way, yeah, fantastic idea to do plumbing.

[B]

I know my dad was really. That was the one time he was quite happy that I was doing it, honestly.

[A]

And I've got a friend called Dan who's. Who's a plumber.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just great guy, actually. You know what's really funny? Dan also very, very philosophical.

[B]

Oh, well.

[A]

Really thinks about life in a big way and a lot. He really lives the life that he wants nice.

[B]

Maybe all plumbers are philosophers. You never know.

[A]

Let's call it all plumbers are philosophers.

[B]

Exactly. It's done.

[A]

What do you. What's the first thing you learn in plumbing? School?

[B]

Health and safety. Do you want to do what not to do? Talk a lot about asbestos.

[A]

You think it's going to be all glamour and then here comes the asbestos.

[B]

Yeah, man. You have asbestos and the lad.

[A]

Lead bad. Asbestos bad. So father is happy with plumbing.

[B]

Yeah. Mother, she wants me to do. They both want me to go to university.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, really bad.

[A]

They're like, still can. Oh, you know. You know what you should say to them. And you can tell me that I said this.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

The people I knew at university who are a bit older, got so much more out of it because they knew what they wanted to do. Like, when you're 18, you just guessed. You're like, oh, I might want to do.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And then you go and do it and you're not actually that fussed about it.

[B]

You just need time to think. Exactly.

[A]

Such a good idea to get a skill. Honestly, people are going to be just chasing you around the park, asking you to do their plumbing. Like, there's just not enough of them.

[B]

I know.

[A]

And, you know, you. You would be a really good one. You'd be able to talk to people nicely and they would like you. I'd also. Yeah, it would all go really well. And then you can. You can study anything anytime.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then you can, like when you're old. But. Oh, no, I know. I really like this. I know I've met these people. I have a better idea of what I want to do.

[B]

Yeah, I wanted to. I remember last year, the whole year, I was planning to do mechanics because I'm really into cars, you know. This friend, I did the Ramen Thursday.

[A]

Ramen Thursday. Famous Ramen Thursday.

[B]

He got me into, like, jets, cars, planes and everything like that. Time passed by. It was like. The thing that really got me is don't turn a hobby into a chore. So I just decided I'll go do plumbing. I enjoy plumbing as well. I really. I really enjoy, like, you know, making pipelines and everything like that. Obviously, it's a little bit.

[A]

So you enjoyed plumbing before you started doing this?

[B]

I worked with my dad.

[A]

Oh, that's cool.

[B]

My dad was a plumber as well.

[A]

Oh, amazing. Yeah.

[B]

Following in his footsteps.

[A]

Oh, lovely.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And does he still do it?

[B]

No, he's retired now.

[A]

Okay. But he. But he showed you some stuff.

[B]

Oh, yeah. I used to work with him. He Used to show me the pipelines and how, how to solder and everything like that. You know, it's a good foundation to have.

[A]

But back to like telling your parents you love them or not and all that kind of stuff. They're not saying it to you currently? They don't?

[B]

No.

[A]

Would you, you would like them to though. How much do you need? How much love chat do you need?

[B]

To be honest, it's not so much for me, more for them. I don't want them to regret anything because seeing my sisters, currently, my sisters, I don't think they speak to my parents much about how they feel or what they do on a day to day basis.

[A]

Really? That's interesting. Then they speak to you instead.

[B]

Yeah. When I was younger, I always wanted an older brother, someone that I can have a second perspective from. Someone I can call upon, always there, just whenever I need him, just to talk or anything it could be. I never had that. So I try and do my best to be the older brother that I wanted for my sisters. Yeah, I feel like, because, I mean, I understand where they're coming from. Like I try and speak to my mom about how I'm feeling or something. Like I haven't really done much of that. But my sister, she went up to her, oh, I'm feeling this way. And then first thing that comes out is like, oh, you should pray. You should pray more. You should do this. It's not easy to talk to someone who's going through something. You should hear them out rather than just give them a task.

[A]

Oh, interesting. Okay.

[B]

You know, it's.

[A]

Yeah. So their advice is just kind of blanket. Yeah, just pray. See you later on the whole. And then obviously you're thinking about it a bit more intensely. Yeah, that's quite a lot to like on your shoulders. Do you feel, do you feel it's a bit of a weight?

[B]

It's weight, yeah. But it's, it's a nice backpack to have. I don't mind holding it out on my shoulders. It's fine.

[A]

Let's talk about then. I actually, I don't, I'm not a huge fan of talking about. I mean, I mean not in life, but in these particular podcasts about the ins and outs of certain religious practices. Just because. Keen to keep it as human as possible about the individual related to all these things. But obviously in your life it's, it's very, it's very relevant.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm interested in this idea that being a Muslim, you know, with your household, clearly, like you're not like your parents. So. So where are you at with kind of how you sit with faith and yourself and your own beliefs?

[B]

I think religion is good. It's good for certain people, like you said before, they need something to keep them going, something that makes them feel like they're here for a purpose. But some people think more logically than spiritually. And. I don't know. For me, to be entirely honest, I've never really spoken to any of my friends about how I feel, what I believe and stuff like that.

[A]

Are most your friends believe?

[B]

Yeah, most of my friends are Muslims.

[A]

Give me a percentage.

[B]

I'd say 90%.

[A]

90? Yeah, it's quite high.

[B]

I don't know, it's just. It's a thing where it's. It's closed inwards, you know, it's closed inside of me. I. I really. I haven't spoken to any of my family, any of my friends. I've hinted at, like, at different ideologies that are interesting with my sisters and my parents and stuff like that. Because it's fun to think about, right?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But the way I feel about my own beliefs and thoughts and everything like that, I just feel like it keeps me on my toes in life, honestly. It keeps me company whenever I'm on the tube and there's no service, so I can't listen to any music. Just gives me something to think about, you know.

[A]

It's your own music.

[B]

Exactly, yeah.

[A]

Just music of possibility, of spiritual choices. Yeah. Like, what's the. Okay, so have you thought about the possibility of, Like, not being a Muslim? As in. Like, as in. Is that, like. Would that ever be possible?

[B]

Absolutely. To be entirely honest, I wouldn't say I am now. It's just I am by label.

[A]

Because you're in that household.

[B]

I'm in the household. I can't say why I believe. I mean, I can. It's just. I don't think I have the strength to do that, to be entirely honest. I don't think I have the courage to, you know, say, hey, this is nice. I've grown up with this, but I just. I have my own thoughts. Maybe I'll come back to it, maybe I won't. It's just, you know, what is it?

[A]

I mean, like, what point can you, like, choose bits of it that you like? Or is it kind of something you feel like you're either in it or you're out of it?

[B]

I mean, you have different schools of thought, obviously. I think most of the school of thought, like, most of them agree that if you Pick parts of it and, you know, don't do other parts and stuff like that. Then you're not really a believer. There's parts about Islam that I like, certain parts that I disagree with or don't.

[A]

What do you like about it the most?

[B]

They have really nice insight on how intention works and everything like that. How someone may do something right, and to you and everybody else, it might come across as rude or mean or something like that. However, in. From their perspective, their intentions weren't to do that. So it kind of gives you insight on how everybody is really complex. You can never really label someone because it's. It's. It's too complex. It's too many branches to just keep in one enclosed area. Like I said before, religion is not necessarily a bad thing. It's just. It's not for everyone. You know, everybody has their own philosophical thoughts and everybody's philosophers of their own life, to be entirely honest, of course.

[A]

What bits of it would you say to you don't make any sense or to make the least sense about it?

[B]

Oh, it says that in the book that, like, you know, we do have free will, yet everything has already been decided and that God knows everything. I don't try and, like, disregard it and be like, that's nonsense. That's contradictory. That's. You know, I think of it as more of a perspective, as maybe I've just not been around it for enough time to really understand it and, you know, have a grasp on this concept. I also have the idea that life as a whole is extremely complex. And like you said before, it's really rare that we're here. And it makes sense to me that something that doesn't make sense and is beyond our, like, grasp of understanding made the universe. Something that is really complex that we don't understand made the universe, therefore we wouldn't be able to understand it because it's. It's like seeing a new color.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We can't picture that, but, I mean, I don't know. It makes sense, but it doesn't make sense. It's a paradox. But I also, I find it strange that there's an afterlife. It's not like we had a choice to be here in the first place. It's not like we pressed a button. It doesn't say anything about us deciding to be human beings that live on this earth. Sure. So why would we be subjected to so much pain and so much suffering just to be met with the way you handled it was bad. So therefore you're gonna live, rest of eternity in hell. I don't really understand that, to be entirely honest.

[A]

Do you pray yourself? You know, you say your parents tell your. Your sisters to pay. Would you. Do you get on board?

[B]

No, I've lost touch with it, to be entirely honest. I. I've tried. It just. It feels like a chore, you know, and with something like that, you don't really want it to be a chore. So there's no point if it's. If it feels like I just can't wait for this to be over, you know, like, so I can get back to what I was doing. There's no point of that.

[A]

So I get back to my jets.

[B]

Yeah. That's strange. I don't know.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thinking about it, there's lots of. There's lots of ways you can go.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so. Yeah. And so you also. Do you feel like you can't tell your friends about it as well, or is that.

[B]

I feel like. I mean, some friends are less religious than others.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But, yeah, I'd say some of them I wouldn't tell just because, I mean, they're young, so the outrage and everything like that. Oh, my God. You are supposed to be my friend, and I don't understand that.

[A]

Well, you can, you know, you could maybe expand that 10%. Yeah. Non Muslim friendship number.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[A]

What kind of friends are you hoping to make? Are they kind of what's. What's missing in your friendship worlds, would you say?

[B]

Different aspects of life, different perspectives. I feel like most of the people I hang around with have somewhat of the same perspective. I'd say different hobbies, different things to do. I feel like if someone was going fishing or something like that, just let me know, man. I'll be there. So, you know, where are my fishing friends? Where are my fishing friends? You know, like just. Just new people. I want to. I want to meet new people. Yeah. I wanna.

[A]

That's the way to think. I don't think there's anything more important than like, trying new stuff. Meeting people from different walks of life, you know, who are different to you, who have different ideas and.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Beliefs and way of doing existence and just like, suck it all up.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And like, you know, maybe the fisherman's got it right. You know, we tend to be. Our friendship tends to be so narrow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We stick within our kind of socioeconomic boundaries pretty tightly. You understand who you are, I think. Not by thinking. By doing.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

You know, like, think about it after you've done it. Exactly.

[B]

Yeah. The raw emotions and everything. Like that. Yeah, it's real. Feels really real.

[A]

So I think so I think anything that involves is that person playing caps for themselves. What did he just throw up? Why did you choose this bench? I have interest.

[B]

First bench I saw. Yeah.

[A]

I wasn't any thinking that. Yeah, that was action.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

First bench. Bosh. No, I always. I always like. Oh, no, he will. Is he just caught something. He did do that. There we go. Here we go. He threw it. Acorn or a little ball. Oh, that's quite sweet. Yeah, I think that's keeping him happy. It's kind of like a childlike thing, isn't it? It's quite sweet. We gotta hold on to these things. What do you think the thing you do that is most. That's most childlike is now that you're technically not a child anymore. I hate to break it to you.

[B]

Oh yeah. I don't know. It's devastating.

[A]

It was all over, mate.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're officially adult now.

[B]

I'd say. The one thing I really like. I do.

[A]

That's most childlike.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is I. Come on.

[B]

Stupid.

[A]

But you can say it.

[B]

I just sit there and play Minecraft. Just like thinking, having a good time, you know? Yeah, that's probably it.

[A]

Is it one where you like build? Yeah, build things, build places.

[B]

You can build wherever you want.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. You can build anything. Yeah.

[A]

What was the last thing you built?

[B]

A Minecraft. Oh, house. House with a nice little chimney, you know.

[A]

What is your. Take me through your dream house.

[B]

Oh, my dream house.

[A]

Given that you've kind of been building yourself.

[B]

My dream house would probably be little cabin in the woods, you know, nothing too big, nothing too small. Just like enough with a Red Bull fridge, you know, just a fridge full of Red Bull TV, PC, PS3. I used to love the PS3 when I was younger. Yeah, that's pretty much it. Just like a nice simplistic life because it would urge you to go out there more, you know. But then later on when I leave my newfound friends, we're gonna go do some fishing, you know.

[A]

How do you feel about romantic things?

[B]

What's it.

[A]

What? How do you. How do you. How do you lie with all that?

[B]

I'd say it's. Yeah, it's. It's important for people to find someone that they can really love. Even if, worst case scenario, they don't love you back. Right. At least you found someone you can say you truly love. Right?

[A]

That's sweet. So are you pursuing this person? Ish.

[B]

Ish. Yeah.

[A]

Have you had any dates yet?

[B]

I Took her on a date one time.

[A]

Just holding hands. Oh, yeah, holding hands. Any kisses?

[B]

I had my first kiss not too long ago, actually.

[A]

Oh, that's exciting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Tell me about.

[B]

Caught me by surprise.

[A]

Oh, fantastic. In a good way.

[B]

Yeah, it was nice.

[A]

Paint the sea. What's the build up? Give us a build up. Details are good.

[B]

I picked her up from a. Like she was at a friend's house. Yeah. And then, you know, we was at the bus stop and we were just like, you know, really close, and then she just grabbed me and just, like, kissed me. I was like, oh, man, this is. This is new. Felt really good.

[A]

That's wonderful.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Were you, like, glad the bus didn't come?

[B]

I was.

[A]

That could have changed the game. Just think. Bus came a minute before that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What, what. What emotions did you feel during that kiss that you didn't expect to feel?

[B]

You know?

[A]

What was surprising for you about it? How you felt.

[B]

I felt really loose, you know, Like, I just, like. Let's say, for example, I was wearing a mountain on my back. Right. I feel like that mountain just got lifted off my back and I felt really loose and interesting, you know, really free in general and just really in love. Yeah. It was great experience to have. I mean, I'd say with this person, they're in uni, Right?

[A]

The person you kissed.

[B]

Yeah. At the bus stop or same person.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

With the great questions.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We figured out.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's on uni now. I wanted to have a good time as much as I want to speak to her. We don't speak much now. Maybe once a day. Once every two days. See where it goes. If it doesn't go anywhere, then it's fine with me. I had a good time, you know.

[A]

You got that first kiss.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. At the bus stop.

[A]

You'll never forget that first kiss.

[B]

Absolutely not.

[A]

Isn't that a great thing? Yeah. Let's imagine. You knew a kiss might be on the cards. Like, would you be more stressed out about it? Might have. You, like, honestly? Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How would you have prepared?

[B]

I feel like the best thing to do is do what you want.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Obviously not, you know, not consensually. Consensually. Obviously. Do what you want, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

She wants to kiss. Kiss her if you feel like kissing her. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You want to get deep into it, Right. Try it. It's a romantic playground. Right. You can kind of do whatever you want.

[A]

All bus stops are romantic playgrounds.

[B]

That's all I had. Yeah. So poetic.

[A]

You know what? I was interested I actually looked over towards this direction a few times. I'm thinking about who to approach on benches. And I noticed you're here for a while. But also I noticed you were really looking out, which I was always really impressed by. Some would say that it's quite rare to find an 18 year old just looking out and not looking at a phone and all this stuff. Can you sell it to me? Sell it to other 18 year olds who are listening.

[B]

Nature is beautiful, you know, it's something like I could never look at and be bored of. Right. I look around, trees are rustling and there's animals always keeping it, you know, they're always keeping the flow going.

[A]

I love that. Keeping the flow going. I love that. Yeah, they're so right. It's such a beautiful way of describing it. Yeah.

[B]

And as for, you know, people who aren't into nature, I'd say just sit there and just think about someone or something, you know, just think about your day. How do you think your week's gonna go?

[A]

I really like what you're saying about thinking about someone. Yeah, that's a lovely thought. I sometimes think about. Oh, you know, you pick a kind of random person you haven't seen for a while. I wonder what they're doing right now. Yeah, that's a nice thing to think about.

[B]

Exactly, yeah. Just think about someone or something. A nice thing to do.

[A]

Think about your first kiss at a bus stop.

[B]

Oh, yeah, 100%.

[A]

Imagine if we met again in on this bench in 10 years time. What would you like to think that you would have done by then? Or to what kind of person would you like to be at that point? You'd be 28.

[B]

I'd be 28.

[A]

Over the hill at 28. No, I'm Jake. You're still very young at 28.

[B]

By then I would have wanted to do the things I've wanted to do in life. Right. Like for a long time now. It's been about six months now. I've been thinking about buying an electric guitar. Yeah, I wanna, I wanna learn the, the electric guitar.

[A]

Why have you been thinking about it, not doing it?

[B]

Money, man. Yeah.

[A]

What electric guitar do you want?

[B]

Honestly? Just a nice black one and then maybe get. Because the person, the lover. Yeah, the kisser. She's really into like art and stuff. I want to get her to paint my electric guitar maybe.

[A]

Oh, that's sweet.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, just, you know, meet new people. I would have wished to meet new friends. Fishermen. Fisherman, exactly. Yeah. Just doing better, you know, doing the things that I want to do, you know, rather than doing things that other people would have wanted me to do just because they think in their life it's better for them, you know?

[A]

Yeah. I will say to you, this is a rare bench move. I haven't done this before, but I'm personally more than happy to buy you an electric guitar. Would you let me buy you one?

[B]

Are you being dead serious?

[A]

100%.

[B]

Seriously?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This isn't some corner, some kind of, you know.

[A]

No. I'll shake your hand on it. I'll do whatever you. Whatever is the. To confirm these things. You really not. I quite like to do it. No, I would like to.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Like, it's a beautiful thing to play an instrument.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I feel like you do it really well. And it also has a secondary meaning with the girl in the bus stop.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she wants to paint it, but I'm deadly serious. Is it. It's completely on. No one will ever know, of course, whether I did or didn't.

[B]

That's true. That's a good point. Maybe, Maybe not.

[A]

But most important thing is that, you know.

[B]

Yeah, of course. Yeah.

[A]

And then you get it. Oh, man.

[B]

Thank you, man. That means a lot to me, man. Honestly, it's just. Yeah, it means an awful lot to me, man. You know, because you look at music and you just. You feel something. It's like an expression of someone's life, you know? Expression of oneself, you know?

[A]

Of course.

[B]

It's. It's beautiful.

[A]

Let's do one more thing. We're gonna close eyes. Actually, I'm closing my eyes. Let's close your eyes. You got eyes? Those eyes closed.

[B]

Great. Perfect.

[A]

Mine, too. I'm going to ask you to think of a room or a space, a site, a vision, something you've seen from your past that meant something to you, something you can remember in good detail. What comes into your head first. Can you paint that picture for me? Can you tell me, like, what you can see?

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And how you're feeling about it?

[B]

It's early in the morning. It's okay. How do I describe this tv? In front, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

On the floor is a carpet. Yeah. And we have blue and black sofas. They look a little bit royal. They've got patterns on them. It's kind of like in a U shape. And in the middle of that is a wooden hexagonal table which is quite big. And I'm sitting on the left side of the U looking at the tv. And I'm quite young at the time. I'm like, maybe how Old am I? I'm like maybe nine years old. I turn on the TV and I put on the Walking Dead and I'm checking if my mum and my dad are coming down the stairs because I'm not allowed to watch the show. And it's really thrilling.

[A]

And.

[B]

I'm watching the Walking Dead and Rick Grimes walking down this flat of stairs in the hospital. And the sun is slightly beaming through the curtains on the right side. I have a little bit of the curtain open and there's just sun beaming through and. Yeah, that's it. Walking bed. And I felt scared, happy and thrilled. It's like the thrill of being chased because if my parents came down, I wasn't allowed to go on TV anymore.

[A]

So you're risking it all.

[B]

Risk Walking Dead. Yep.

[A]

Yeah, for me that's like kind of also says a bit about you that you've remembered that excitement about slightly going against your parents, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It probably sounds like it's still there a little bit a rebel. It was there when you were 9 and 10 and it's still there now.

[B]

Yeah. Well done. Appreciate it.

[A]

It's different, isn't it, when you close your eyes.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

You can like enter into the feeling of being in a place more.

[B]

Yeah, it's much more vivid.

[A]

Yeah, that's it. Well, keep rebelling, I say. But you know, you're a great host. Oh, you're very sweet.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Thanks so much for talking to me.

[B]

No problem, man.

[A]

And for your time.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Oh, yeah. There's a last question now.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Ready for that?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What are you, Mr. Stranger going to do next?

[B]

Oh, probably go home and do some research on.

[A]

We gotta figure out this guitar. Yeah.

[B]

And be ready to play that thing maybe five hours a day for every day. Yeah.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

I don't mind.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I'm walking through the park again Pulling on a string Molding over ways that they keep on happening now Find a frozen lake that I figured skate around figuring and finding out how common is the ground. Believing in experience we're swallowing the pride we live our lives by Learning from the choices we decide whenever there's a problem that's withering but true My sisters talk to me but they'd rather talk to you you Cuz we're human I can feel it in my blood that everything I've ever known Is always understood and held together.

[B]

Together.

[C]

So the it begins I'm who I used to be I pull the string and find it's tied around the girl I see at the bus stop where we kiss and she smiles. I am happy with myself. And that happened for a while. Cause we're human. I can feel it in my blood that everything I've ever known is always understood and held t together.

[B]

Together.