EPISODE 72: Just Ask The Trees

Summary

Podcast Summary: Strangers on a Bench – Episode 72: Just Ask The Trees

Host: Tom Rosenthal
Date: January 26, 2026
Guest: Anonymous Finance Professional & Cancer Survivor

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Episode Overview

This intimate and thought-provoking episode features Tom Rosenthal in conversation with an anonymous bench-dweller—an accomplished finance professional who recently paused her high-flying career after a cancer diagnosis. Their discussion unfolds across themes of burnout, forced self-reflection, healing, shifting identities, the value of slowness, and finding perspective in nature (particularly with the help of trees). The guest's journey from relentless finance executive to cancer survivor and reluctant tree conversationalist offers wisdom about societal pressures, work culture, and the challenge—and importance—of redefining success.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Mondays: From Dreaded to Cherished

• Newfound Appreciation for Mondays ([00:56])
  • Mondays have transformed from the start of a hectic workweek to a cherished day of solitude after dropping her son at school.
  • Quote: “I have never been better because I have just spent three months, like, just walking and no longer living in this crazy kind of other life that I just wasn't in flow with.” (Finance Professional, [01:47])

Professional Backstory & Toxic Work Culture

• Previous Life in Private Equity ([02:31])
  • Describes relentless 8am-midnight workdays, perpetual global travel, and the loss of social and family life.
  • The burnout was so normalized, it was difficult to recognize from within.
• On Work-Defined Identity ([03:56], [04:49])
  • Work becomes one’s entire identity, making it hard to imagine leaving or changing course.
  • Quote: “Your identity becomes your work or you think your identity is your work.” ([06:25])

Leaving the Cult of Finance

• Comparison to Cults ([05:53])
  • Institutions encourage total enmeshment, making departures feel radical or shameful—“It felt like leaving a cult.”
  • She credits a career coach for “dropping a bomb” by asking, “Why wouldn’t you just leave your job?” ([06:21])

Cancer Diagnosis as a Forced Pause

• Life Change & Gift of Perspective ([07:26])
  • Just as she left her job, she was diagnosed with breast cancer.
  • Though terrifying at first, she reframes the illness: “I say to people it was the most amazing gift because it is actually exactly what I needed in that moment.” ([07:26])

Rediscovering Identity & Enough-ness

• Stripping it Back ([08:05])
  • The process revealed how little of her worth needed to be bound to professional success.
  • Quote: “We're not human doings, we're human beings...” ([08:05])
  • Meaning comes from presence, family, being—not achievement.

Healing, Nature, and Talking to Trees

• Therapy and the Pace of Trees ([09:33])
  • Her therapist advocated “watching the trees,” encouraging her to move more slowly and notice her surroundings.
  • Practicing “talking to trees” as a method for calming anxiety and letting her subconscious surface answers.
  • Quote: “Everything in the universe should be operating more at that frequency. If you watch nature, it’s kind of moving at the frequency that we should be moving at.” ([09:33])
• Benchside Rituals ([13:06])
  • Journaling and leaving voice notes for her son while sitting with a favorite resilient, slightly “dead” tree.

Money: Motivation & Re-evaluation

• Attitude Toward Wealth ([15:07], [16:01])
  • While financially successful, she insists money was not her prime motivator—worth and achievement drove her.
  • Considers finance pay “stupid money,” advocates taxing the wealthy, and actively sought workplaces with healthier cultures for her return.
• On Raising a Child With Privilege ([13:58], [36:11])
  • Focuses on helping her son avoid materialism and understand the connection between money, work, and time together.

Gender in Finance & Hopes for the Future

• Masculinity of the Industry ([17:03])
  • Became aware of how “to survive, you just take on a lot of that … slightly agro egotistical culture.”
  • Now seeks workplaces with healthier, more authentic environments and wants to model an alternative for younger women in finance.
  • Quote: “One of the things show younger women how they don’t need to give up their soul … to stay in this industry.” ([24:55])

The Dark Side of the Industry

• Story of Cocaine in Saltshakers ([22:35])
  • Shares a notorious industry anecdote to illustrate excess and normalized dysfunction.
• Working to Change the System ([23:40])
  • Set up a foundation for industry professionals to give more to charity and advocates for inside-out reform.

Returning to Work & Maintaining Change

• Guarding Her Transformation ([17:03], [38:08])
  • Emphasizes the importance of nature, meditation, breathwork, and staying true to her values as she re-enters finance.
  • Recognizes the challenge of returning to the same environment as a changed person.

Beautiful Observations & Poetic Endnote

• Finding Beauty in Slowness ([42:30])
  • Describes noticing “the light in the water, spider webs after rain”—details previously overlooked.
  • “The more I slow down, the more I actually often see.”
• Concludes intent “to go forward in a really slow way and just be.” ([43:32])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It’s kind of like how you cook frogs... you slowly, slowly turn up the temperature ... you lose your sense of normal.”
  – Finance Professional, on not realizing her own burnout ([04:49])

• “Your identity becomes your work or you think your identity is your work.”
  – Finance Professional ([06:25])

• “All those things that you actually kind of knew in your gut last year you needed to slow down. The universe was just making sure you really got the lesson.”
  – Finance Professional ([06:25])

• “We’re not human doings, we’re human beings.”
  – Finance Professional ([08:05])

• “If you watch nature, it’s kind of moving at the frequency that we should be moving at.”
  – Finance Professional ([09:33])

• “Actually what’s important is … maybe one step of those is the key step. The step that you took to go towards that tree…”
  – Tom Rosenthal ([12:04])

• “Most women will actually choose to then go up a bit, like, when they're having reconstruction. For me … it was important … that I go back to being the same size that I was.”
  – Finance Professional, on breast reconstruction ([41:36])

• “The more I slow down, the more I actually often see.”
  – Finance Professional ([42:30])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |---------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:56 | Newfound love for Mondays and park solitude | | 01:22 | Cancer diagnosis and its timing with career pause | | 02:31 | Description of previous work life and private equity | | 04:49 | Burnout, perspective through career coaching, “cooking frogs” analogy | | 05:53 | Leaving “cult-like” jobs: Goldman's example | | 06:21 | The effect of a life coach and catalyst to quit | | 07:26 | Cancer diagnosis as a gift, redefining life’s pace | | 08:05 | Identity beyond work: “We’re not human doings, we’re human beings.” | | 09:33 | Talking to trees: Learning from nature’s pace | | 13:06 | Journaling and reflective practices with a favorite tree | | 15:07 | Money, motivation, and views about taxation in finance | | 17:03 | Gender, masculine culture, and hopes for change in finance | | 22:35 | “Cocaine in the saltshaker”—dark, normalized dysfunction | | 24:55 | Desire to help young women in finance retain integrity | | 26:38 | Applying tree-speed wisdom to work and education | | 33:40 | What a private equity finance executive actually does—from pitching to analyzing companies | | 34:14 | Top three tips for persuading someone to part with money | | 41:04 | Talking about breast cancer surgery and recovery | | 42:30 | Most beautiful thing noticed on a walk recently: light, spider webs | | 43:32 | Closing reflections: plans to remain slow and present |

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Final Reflections

This conversation traced the arc of a high achiever’s reckoning—with illness, identity, and the unsustainable cadence of modern capitalist work. By embracing vulnerability and nature (literally talking to and learning from trees), the guest found new bearings, a renewed sense of self-worth separate from achievements, and the courage to return to her industry on new terms. The episode’s title—Just Ask The Trees—is both literal and metaphorical: an invitation to slow down, question the systems we inhabit, and remember we’re allowed to simply be.

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Memorable Closing Quote

“I’m gonna go off, be slow, finishing my walk, and then try and bring that out of the heath into my life as well, and just go forward in a really slow way and just be.”
— Finance Professional ([43:32])

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(Conversation ends with poetic reflections and the promise of holding onto that new-found rhythm.)

Transcript

[Interviewer]

Hello. Sorry to bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench, where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a. Do you have a favorite day of the week? Drum roll.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

I think it's Monday now.

[Interviewer]

You mean you think it's Monday now, or you think it's Monday?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

It used to not be Monday. It used to be probably more like the typical Friday, Saturday. But then this year, I've not been working. And so Mondays is like, I drop my son at school and then come for a walk. And so I really enjoy, like, just some time to myself. So, like, I was just thinking it has become probably my favorite way to start a week.

[Interviewer]

This is very good. How do you spend these Mondays? What's the dream one?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

There's a backstory to how my dream has changed for Monday. Okay, so at the start of this year, I was diagnosed with cancer, and it coincided with me knowing I wanted to take a break from work. So thankfully, I had just finished working. So I kind of found myself in between hospital appointments with a lot of stuff going on in my head. And so I just started coming for walks on the heath. Someone had told me to, like, talk to trees, which seemed quite wild at the time.

[Interviewer]

Who was that? Who told you that?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

An amazing kind of body. So psychologist who does Osteo and things. Anyway, so I just started coming to the heath most mornings and just walking or sitting on benches and not really talking to trees, but just looking at treats for a few hours. And ironically, over a few months, kind of what should have maybe been the most tumultuous time in my life. People would ask me how I was, and I was like, I have never been better because I have just spent three months, like, just walking and no longer living in this crazy kind of other life that I just wasn't in flow with.

[Interviewer]

Okay, there's a lot to unpack there. Let's go pre the new life.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

What did your Mondays look like before all this?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Pretty manic. Manic Monday. So I work in private equity finance, and so quite intense working weeks. Private equity specifically is raising billions of money from typically big pension funds, insurance companies, any institutions with lots of money and investing it for them and owning assets. And the part of my role was facing the investors, and so that meant a lot of travel globally. It was just a very busy life and a life where you're always on and a life with long Hours. So a normal Monday morning would probably Sunday night. I'd already started getting my head back into the to do list of what I had to do. And then you'll either be in an office all week or be at Heathrow early in the morning getting a flight somewhere for the week. And so I think manic is definitely the way I look back on that part of my life. You know, I just started really Mondays and just not liking what I did. And so I decided essentially just need to have a break, both to reset myself physically because I felt burnt out, which is ironic to then get the diagnosis a month later. But also, just a question, do I want to stay in this industry? Yeah.

[Interviewer]

When you say long hours, what are we talking?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Got better as you get older, but in your 20s, you know, you'd be expected to be in the office till after midnight every single day. And that's still normal.

[Interviewer]

Starting from When?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Oh, like 8:00am What? Yeah.

[Interviewer]

But how do you. How do you get up at 5am.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

And then exercise before you get to the office? And then you don't have a social life. Then the reset from really me was having a child and clearly that became the priority for me. And so, you know, the hours became slightly less intense as I kind of balanced it a bit more, but it would normally be working after he's gone down to bed and things like that. And so I, you know, I genuinely think that was a big contributor to me just burning myself into the ground and probably, you know, getting ill in the way that I did, because I'd look back and be like, that's just like a crazy way for humans to exist or to live.

[Interviewer]

How aware were you of how crazy it was during the craziness?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Not. I don't think you have a lot of perspective. And actually I worked with a kind of career coach as I was thinking of leaving, and she said it to me, it's kind of like how you cook frogs. You know, you put them in water and you slowly, slowly turn up the temperature and turn it up so they don't realize that they're boiling. Like that visual for me, I was like, that's it. Because you lose your sense of normal. And I think in those organisations particularly, it works for them, for people to kind of make work their life and to give so much of themselves. And unless you really have a strong community outside of industry or you have other people who can kind of say to you, hey, no, this isn't normal, you know, I think you do just keep going and going. And when I Chose to resign. The number of people who are like, well, that's just crazy. Why would you leave without a job? Why would you leave this job that pays a lot? You know, why wouldn't you stay for another five years and wait to make this amount of millions and things? And that's how they kind of justify it to themselves. I guess it's the nature of capitalism more generally in lots and lots of industries. But I think more people are questioning it. But a lot of people unfortunately, still kind of stuck in the system.

[Interviewer]

I mean, everything is a cult really, isn't it?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

It is.

[Interviewer]

They're everywhere.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yeah. I used to work at Goldman's in.

[Interviewer]

Quick question.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

Just for people who won't know what is Goldman's?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Goldman's is. Sachs is one of the largest kind of global investment banks in the world. And so I was working for them in New Zealand and when I left there, it felt like leaving a cult. You know, they really want you to believe it's the only place to work and that's how they kind of keep people. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So this life coach was a, was a game changer for you?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yeah. She said to me, why wouldn't you just leave your job? And it was literally like a bomb dropping. Because I said that just sounds crazy because I think again, your identity becomes your work or you think your identity is your work. And so I spent several months with her and I got to the point I was like, oh my gosh, yeah, this is just a part of my life. I should just leave this job. And so essentially, over the space of six months, I kind of agreed with my work to leave and left at the end of the year. So I was not working. I was in that phase of just exploring what I wanted to do next when I found a lump in my breast and was diagnosed with breast cancer. But that's the ironic thing. My husband said it to me, my brother said it to me. It's like all those things that you actually kind of knew in your gut last year you needed to slow down. The universe was just making sure you really got the lesson and didn't just race back into the next jobs to and kind of like chase your ego a bit weirdly. And that's. So I say to people it was the most amazing gift because it is actually exactly what I needed in that moment.

[Interviewer]

I'm guessing, though, you weren't thinking amazing gift when you were diagnosed, not in.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

The first few weeks when you don't know if it's terminal or not. Yeah. And I lost a Very good friend who was a few years younger than me to cancer. And so in the first few weeks, my mind goes to the extreme and I'm like, well, I'm going to die. And then I think slowly, as you digest and you realize what you're doing, treatment plans are. And you see, I could see a life beyond it.

[Interviewer]

Again, what has emerged from yourself during. I'm thinking back to what you're saying about working till midnight and getting up at 5am all that stuff. And to cultivate an identity is quite difficult beyond work. Right?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I mean, what has emerged from yourself during the quiet times or what was lurking beneath that wasn't allowed to get up.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yeah. Do you know what I think it is? It's more. It's like stripping away everything to realize that your identity is actually just you without all the external. And actually just time with family and son being like, this is enough, you know, Because I think actually when I was grappling with, you know, okay, I'll stop my job and then what do I do next? I was still in the mindset of, like, whatever I do is my identity, rather than actually just being the old, like, you know, we're not human doings, we're human beings. I think was the thing that really landed for me. It was like, I don't need an identity that is anything external other than just being here, being present. And I think it is. It's stripping back everything that over the years you feel, you know, you need to buy or you need to achieve to kind of be worthy or to have an identity. Whereas actually just kind of how we land on this planet in the way that we are with people is all that really matters. Yeah. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I really like that. Talk to me about talking to trees because, well, it was funny. It's funny. As you were talking then about identity and I was thinking, yeah, like, she's right. We pile these things on our. On top of ourselves that are actually not really anything. I was thinking, yeah. When you think about it, like, you know, how different are we from a tree? You know, in a way, you know, that's what I was thinking. Talking to a tree is almost like. Well, that's like what we are in a way.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yeah. So that's kind of how my journey went, is talking to trees is this therapist I've seen, funny enough, I went in to see him last year before I got diagnosed, and I said to him, I'm really happy. I'm about to get married. And he could see it. He's like, yeah, but you're still wired like you're supercharged right now. And I could feel it in myself, like, being really, really kind of highly strung. And he was like, you know, you're not meant to move at this speed. And so he kind of said, just go watch the trees and watch how slowly trees move. Everything in the universe should be operating more at that frequency. You know, if you watch nature, it's kind of moving at the frequency that we should be moving at. And so that's what I started doing. And I did find, actually I would just the pace of my walking, you know, I'd really start ambling through the heath rather than power walking and thinking about steps. And that was, you know, it really helped. And then I was saying to him, well, in the moments of anxiety or if I'm feeling stressed again, I can't quite put my finger on, like, what it might be. He was like, well, just ask the trees and start talking to the trees. I was like, that's kind of crazy. But then it does work, kind of allowing your subconscious to answer things for you rather than just always being in your mind. And. Yeah, but it is, you know, you need to kind of lose the shame element because, you know, if you're walking around sometimes, like talking or hugging a tree, you just need to lean into it and trust that there's enough other weirdos out there that will get it.

[Interviewer]

I'm quite a fan of hugging trees. I think you do kind of feel something.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yeah. You know, the first time I ever did it was when I was pregnant with my son and he was overdue. And I was beginning to get really anxious about it. And I just said to my husband, I was like, we need to go to the heath and I'm going to hug some trees. And it was the first time I've ever done it. But it worked. He came like that night.

[Interviewer]

You say that it's even now. You say me talking to trees and looking at trees. It's crazy. You know, you've also said that, rightly, that working till midnight garebed is also crazy.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

I think it's that condition, isn't it, of our society. And actually, from very early on in my life, I was really interested in, like, Eastern medicine. But it's even that awareness of the West. We're very conditioned to things which have kind of been scientifically or, you know, like accepted by society or normalized since the Industrial Revolution. The last only hundred or so years is what's normal. And then anything that is slightly alternative to that is, yeah, you kind of have to disclaim it in a way, don't you? Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I had a thought as you were talking about steps as well. You know, I'm so guilty of this, but it's like, again, way to measure ourselves against ourselves and others.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

So. And so does 20,000 a day or so. And so, you know, whatever it is. And actually what's important is, you know, maybe one step of those is the key step.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

The step that you took to go towards that tree, to talk to that tree was the thing. But you can't measure that.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Is there one particular tree, by the way that you talked to, that you felt gave you the most. Whatever.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

There is one particular tree that I walk along and I really like.

[Interviewer]

What is it about that tree?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Like, it looks slightly dead, but then it comes down.

[Interviewer]

Oh, that's interesting. You chose a dead tree.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yeah. And it really appeals to me because it's just looks resilient or something and it has, like, sparks of life on it, but equally interesting. Yeah. And it's in a pocket that is kind of by itself.

[Interviewer]

How long could you spend with this particular favourite tree?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

I can sometimes sit there for like an hour, but I often, like, take my notebook and journal, which is another thing that I'd never done before. But sometimes I'll just sit there next to it and just write and write and write and write. Or leave voice notes, like, particularly coming into surgeries for this year, being nervous and worried about my son. I'll just leave him lots of voice notes and things. And so I think it's been like a space that's kind of held me.

[Interviewer]

What kind of voice notes do you leave for your son?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

As in just slightly morbid. Like, if anything went wrong in the surgery, these are all the things I want you to know.

[Interviewer]

Does your son get them? Is it for the future?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

I send them to my best friend.

[Interviewer]

Oh, I see.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

If anything goes wrong in the surgery, here's all my voice notes.

[Interviewer]

He's only five.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

I think that's a bit like.

[Interviewer]

Poor kid, he comes home, he's got 20 voice notes from Mum going, if I die, remember this.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

It's more. All the stuff I just couldn't say to him now because actually, the gift of him being five is he has no idea what cancer is. And so in his head, there is no concept that Mum doesn't get better, which has been such a gift, going through it all.

[Interviewer]

But have you found yourself saying anything in those voice notes that surprised you? Like what? Did anything come out? Why have I said that I think.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

There were things that we were talking about, about your worth kind of being just who you are and don't feel like you need to live your life aspiring to be anyone else or to. Or to do anything like that is the one or one of the gifts of working in finance and being ridiculously rewarded is, I think, actually that kind of privilege. That my son doesn't need to worry so much about money and he can actually choose something that he's passionate about rather than just kind of following the system. Then, you know, I think that'd be one of the biggest gifts we could give him.

[Interviewer]

Can I ask you some difficult questions about money? I like, I'd interested in money. I'll start with some gentle ones. But money must have been quite a big driving factor in your life at early doors, I mean, to work till midnight.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

I think I was driven more by the worth thing. Like, you know, I always love numbers for. From very little. But actually money wasn't the motivator. Like, I was kind of surprised by what people earned. It was more, I want to get to the top of this industry and by nature you actually make a lot of money. So I'm one of the few people in our organisation who will argue with my colleagues that we should be paying a lot of tax. I think what people in finance earn is stupid money. And leaving my job last year, talking to people, the industry, who'd say, I would love to leave my job, but I could never give up the money. Actually, I'd reached that point that I was like, I don't care about the money. I think that gave me the freedom to choose.

[Interviewer]

So it's kind of important that you have that quality in the first place.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

How do you feel about money now? Do you mean, has that changed at all?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

I think I've recognized that there's still a level of like, lifestyle, et cetera, that I need to work. You know, like, part of my not working was, wow, could I just do something completely different? And I realised, actually, no, I probably do need to go back to work and continue to earn. Because you live in London, you have a certain. You have a certain cost of living. But I definitely became very clear and as I started looking at new opportunities, you know, the one thing that's going to be important is culture. And so I gave up quite significantly more lucrative options because actually, I just knew the culture wasn't going to be a fit. So I feel quite clear now, you know, about its importance in my.

[Interviewer]

Is that going to be tricky to like, obviously you've had this dive into a new world that's kind of being forced upon you.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Is it going to be quite hard to. I don't know, like it's hard to turn off our own kind of instinctive competition element of ourselves.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Kind of, you know, you're back into work, you're like, oh God, like, this is my.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Surely this is what I've defaulted.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. This is what got me into trouble in the first place. Do you know what I mean?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Knowing that has been my biggest fear. And I've had this creeping anxiety over a few months. I've been like, I've never been so present, I've never been so calm. You know, like, is it all gonna come crashing down as soon as I step back into an office? And, you know, there's still a little bit of doubt. But I think the thing that makes me a little bit more confident about actually kind of going back into focus, frankly, finance a different way is kind of practices and you know, just things that I'm doing that actually I think I just feel a lot more grounded. And I think so long as I continue to do those, like getting out into nature and I get up earlier now and I kind of, you know, if it's breathwork, meditation or Kundalini, I kind of have been quite committedly doing quite a few things that I think already set me up in a different state. And then I think the last thing is, you know, finance is quite a masculine industry. One, there are a lot of men in particular. When I started, it's getting better. But you know, at senior levels there still are. And I think the last job I was in, I frankly kind of lost touch of my feminine kind of to survive, I just. You, you just take on a lot of that kind of slightly agro egotistical culture and absorb into you. And actually when I said, you know, culture's important, I deliberately like focused on firms where I felt that wasn't so prevalent. But also I've been quite clear about the type of person I want to be in the firm. You know, like coming with family and actually being able to be a bit more authentically me.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Are there any all female practices or firms, are they called?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Not at all. Can you start one talked about it with other females in the industry.

[Interviewer]

Oh, sure, you could do it. How hard could it be? Just get together and say, let's do it.

[Poet / Performer]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So you've already talked about it. Yeah, we have bossed off of you. Come on, sort it out. You can do it. You've come this far, we could.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Do you know what I think it also is, though, is it's the point about work suddenly not being your life. And I think a lot of other females reach that realization. And it's like actually anything entrepreneurial kind of in this chapter right now, when my son is young, it's like I kind of want to do it, but it doesn't feel like right now. Because what I have realised this year is actually that is much more important than anything I'm doing work wise. I guess.

[Interviewer]

I don't have that many finance gurus on the bench. What a guru. Maybe this is unfair. Do you think it has a kind of bad, you know, finance is a bit of a bad rep generally if you don't work in finance. Is that fair?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

I think it does. My husband and I met on Tinder, which I have to say it was like when it was first released and not, I think, what it is now, early Tinder, when you're looking for relationships. And he works more in like social impact consulting. And on our first date he made a comment about bankers being essentially the devil. And I had to break it to him that I had been an investment banker and I worked in finance. And, you know, it was one of those things where he would have never have gone on a date with me if he knew you'd add with that. Yeah. And he, to his credit, he was able to look through it and to my credit, I was able to win him over. That we're not all that bad. But it's true. You know, I think that is. And actually, because particularly, you know, in the areas that he worked, you know, you look at the global financial crisis and how much I think the finance industry has created inequality in society, you know, I do think I find it really triggering. I think probably Book has also been through the healthcare system is like, how can people who sit behind desks and just create paper wealth earn so, so much more than people who are bringing real value, like nurses and doctors and people like that? I just think something's broken with society. And I think unfortunately the kind of finance industry does have a loud voice into government and people who influence. And so weirdly, even though I'm on the inside of it, you know, there's a lot of parts that I see and I think it's kind of fair that there's that attention that has come towards the sector. But, you know, as my husband says to me, it's like, yeah, but you can kind of fight for the good model of finance. Whilst you're on the inside, rather than just leave it, you know. And so there is a lot of investment that particularly private equity can bring to lots of companies, et cetera, that government doesn't have the money to bring and to reinvest in things, you know, and there's virtues, but I think it should be kind of regulated. I think there should be more equality with taxes. Yeah. I'd say I'm probably one of the few on the inside who thinks. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So you're kind of aware of the kind of. The darker sides of it.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yeah. There's good people within it, but I think, unfortunately, it's part of a system that isn't necessarily great for the whole of, you know, society.

[Interviewer]

Can you tell me what the. The darkest thing that you've seen inside a. This is a good one. Something must have happened at 11:30 at night. What are the truly dark bits that you've seen during your time?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

I'm trying to think. I've really pushed it so. So far to the back of my mind. It kind of normalised point again, you know, like, it becomes so normalised that nothing stands out.

[Interviewer]

I'm trying to think, you know, there's a little.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

So one that was not in my office, but I heard in one of the other offices, like when I first came to London, is people having, like, cocaine in the salt shaker to literally keep.

[Interviewer]

Keep going.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Keep people going, and it was just completely normal.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

So definitely some, you know, like, stories like that where you're like, this is just wrong and weird. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

There must be people that fall apart.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You know, you must have seen that.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Or maybe they just keep it to themselves, I think.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Keep it to themselves.

[Interviewer]

Do you keep. Here's a question. We could say that you fell apart. Is that fair? To an extent, yeah.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

I think my body fell apart. I think my nature is to be resilient and kind of push through and not complain.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

And, you know, see that as a virtue. And so I think I probably fell apart on the inside while trying to, like, hold it together. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I suppose the question is, to what extent do your former colleagues know about what's happened to you and how you feel about it? Do you mean how communicative have you been about it?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

I feel quite open because I think in terms of if I'm going to stay in this industry, I want to change, or at least the way that I work and be more authentic and not play the game. I kind of have a platform in that I set up a foundation for the industry. To give more to charity because, you know, in terms of we in finance make a lot of money, we need to give more back. That was actually like one of my ways, I guess, of trying to bring that more to the fore. That's cool. So, yeah, I have been pretty open about it, even in taking this long off. It was announced last week that I was coming back because, like I said, I've taken a long break because of cancer.

[Interviewer]

How's it announced?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Oh, just media releases and things and.

[Interviewer]

So, like, a big announcement?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Are you a real big dog?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

I was shocked that they were even interested in writing it up.

[Interviewer]

What was the headline? Stranger X Coming Back. Watch out.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yeah, something like that, yeah. So it was quite important to say, like, I've had a long break because of cancer. You know, in a bit of curveball.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. I suppose it's too much responsibility to put on just your shoulders, but do you have an interest in kind of saving people from what you've had to go through?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yeah, it did suddenly come to me, I think, probably while I was talking to a tree about whether I go back into finance or not. It's like, actually, if you do, this is one of the things show younger women how they don't need to give up their soul or they don't need to kind of give up their identity to stay in this industry. That's my way of kind of passing on the learnings of it all.

[Interviewer]

I was just laughing there. Cause I was just smashing. You talking to a tree about whether you should go back into finance. Probably the tree's like, no, the tree's probably not saying. Yeah, I would say right back into that financial world. Actually. That's my first thing I would do, actually. This is quite a good one, actually. You kind of know what a tree would say. I once ran a half marathon for a charity called Trees for Cities, something like that. It was a tree charity and I asked a friend of my mum's, who's sadly no longer with us, if he would donate. And he was a big Trees fan. And for whatever reason, this email, he just said, you know what? I've got a feeling that if you just gave trees machine guns, they would just kill everyone. That's always stayed with me.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Awesome. Well, like, similar. Yeah. Like my threepuss always says, like, the trees are watching us, thinking you guys are just batshit crazy, like, rushing about. Cause they were like, if you think of yourself as being tree speed and then they watch you, you are like. Like these crazy little ants, like, racing around the heath and they're just like looking at you like you're idiots. And I mean it really helped us.

[Interviewer]

You're like, should I go back into finance inst. Maybe you can have a kind of tree based firm where they just, you know, one day a week you all just spend time working amongst the trees.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Well, do you know what, like that's kind of the philosophy of my son's school is that kids will do much better work like say for boys particularly, like they'll come out and teach maths amongst the trees and things because it's a lot easier for them to focus and to sit down and actually engage with things. So you've got an idea there, like why does it change when you reach certain.

[Interviewer]

It just doesn't, does it?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yeah, we've just been told to go sit in these boxes and offices.

[Interviewer]

I feel like you've got it in you to do something a bit funky really. Especially if you're this big dog who's being announced, you know, and all these things. If they get the trumpets out to announce your arrival back into work, you know, it's pretty mega. Let's dive back a bit if we can into. I'm interested how you became, you know, you said you just, you're just good with numbers obviously, like really competitive.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You just like to kind of just do really well. So yeah, I'm just curious about this kind of number monster winner and how she came to be.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yeah, yeah, sorry. I always, I think numbers are like logical, you know, like there's a clear kind of rule based kind of system to how they work. And so it just felt easy for me. But I equally had no idea like how the world of finance worked. So it wasn't as a particular career that I was drawn to. I went into university being like, I'm just gonna do all the papers that are to do with like numbers and see if something comes of it. And then when I was at university there's probably friends who were like, actually these are the interesting jobs and investment banking and things like that. Because actually that is one thing I knew in the world of finance you kind of have the listed world, which is the stock market, so people who go and trade shares and that's much more. I wouldn't say it's like gambling, but it's much more kind of picking trends and high intense short term working where you're trying to trade the market or there's the unlisted kind of private world which is where you're buying actual single big companies like a big water company, so it's much more long term. And I already got an inclination that actually I preferred the slower moving versus the kind of intensity and the higher risk side of it. Didn't appeal. But I completely by accident fell into actually doing investment banking jobs because someone just said you'd be good at it, you should do it.

[Interviewer]

There was that. They had quite a profound impact. You just do it. Okay.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yeah. And then when I moved to London, I thought, I want to get out of investment banking, I don't want to work for Goldman's. And they said we could move you up to London. But I had friends who were literally working 51 or 52 weeks a year in the office. I was like, if I move to London and work for you, I will literally see the Goldmans office and nothing else. So I knew that wasn't me. But again, just following someone else's advice on what I should do with my career. The guy who rang Goldman said, you're actually really good with people as well and maybe you're someone who shouldn't just live behind a computer for the rest of your life. And so that's how when I landed in London, I was like, okay, I'm gonna try and look for a job that's in this area.

[Interviewer]

I was interested. Not that you didn't answer that question well, but I was interested actually mostly the time before, like early childhood.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Well, no, that's what I was gonna say. So then when I'm reflecting on if I want to in finance or not, I go back to how did I actually end up in it? I'm like, gosh, often it's been people telling me to do stuff, do stuff, you know, and have I ended up here purely because I've been doing what other people have said rather than what I like myself? And actually I asked my mum because I was like, how did I end up doing math subject at school? And she's like, you used to have this nerdy little computer thing that you had to do equations on and you just loved it from an early age. And I did, you know, and I really.

[Interviewer]

What was it?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

I didn't know it. Mum said if I ever got any of the maths questions wrong, I'd reset the whole machine so I could do it again and get like hundreds. And I'm like, that's like, whoa. Yeah, to your point about perfect.

[Interviewer]

So you were training early, you were training early, but obviously you was, you know, you were just really good at that.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Right. And you know, like, I think the thing that I have enjoyed this year is I've always thought when as a result I'm not creative at all. And I've just thought, well that's just not one of my abilities. But this year I've kind of been trying to lean into like it doesn't have to be be all about the, you know, the numbers.

[Interviewer]

Doesn't have to be all about the numbers. That should be on your.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Something you're thinking of like a tattoo to get to remind myself to stay grounded. Maybe that's it.

[Interviewer]

That's a good one to remember. I like that. I feel like it's a funny one, isn't it? Where sometimes it's such a curse to be just naturally good at something. It doesn't mean you're not good at other stuff, it just means you just didn't do it.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

But actually there's a whole world in you that isn't that right? The same goes with anybody.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Exactly.

[Interviewer]

Do you think on the flip side, can so called creative people get into numbers more? Have I ignored my number?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Funny enough, like one of the things that I've been driving a lot through our foundation is like social mobility and encouraging more people into the finance industry from more disadvantaged backgrounds. And I say that to a lot of the students is like some of the best people I've hired haven't done degrees at university or anything to do with numbers. They just have ability to think with a little bit of curiosity.

[Interviewer]

And so you reckon I could do it?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Easily half of it's been able to just talk to people. You clearly got that gift.

[Interviewer]

I could be an investment banker.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I didn't realize and you know, people.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Don'T realize, like it's not as hard as I think, you know, people within the industry make it out to be and therefore it does keep it quite exclusive. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I'm still really intrigued about maybe the answer to this is very boring. But I want to know anyway, like, what is your day made up? Like what, how does it. Like what is it?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yes. Like what do you actually do with your day?

[Interviewer]

You know what I mean?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Weird question.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

So it depends. You know, I kind of talked about we get money off people and then we put it into businesses. Yeah. So someone like myself will be much more being on planes, going out, talking to investors around the world who manage billions in capital and say we think that you should invest in UK or in Europe, you know, and convince them to kind of think to allocate you 100 million and then I will go to the investment team and that's a large Part of the finance industry. And they will be sitting there saying what a really good business is that are stable and safe that we could put that money into. So whereas my life is more outward facing and actually talking to people these days, a lot of their life will be sitting with an Excel model and saying, okay, what do we think will happen with that business? How do we forecast the revenues of that business and try and come up with a value and therefore we should buy it for this price and we can make heaps of money when we sell it in 10 years time and look at all different types of businesses and work out, you know, what's a good buy right now. And things. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Okay, so you got to persuade people to give them a load of money.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

What would be your. Because everyone needs, including my children, you know, everyone needs to persuade people to give them money at some point.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You know, you just do. You just do hundreds of millions, but people might just do a tenner. Do you know what I mean? Five pound a pound. Do you know, I mean, for a chocolate bar, like, you know, you know, what are your kind of top three tips to persuade people to give you money? As someone who does it relentlessly in the high echelons of money? Because surely it's the same tactics.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

I think the first one is, you know, come across as like professional and credible. You know, show up in a certain way, ask for things in a kind of queer. This is good, articulate.

[Interviewer]

So if I was telling a child this look credible, don't just be whining about it, just look good, dress well, come with a plan.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yeah, well then I was gonna say the next one is just be really clear. Nice.

[Interviewer]

I need it for this to get this and you'll get this.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Exactly. I've got a friend who does actually have a lot of wealth. So their kids, rather than them expecting they can get anything, they have to write a PowerPoint presentation and make an actual business case for why they deserve anything that they get from their parents. And so I think it is that it's like actually like genuinely be able to make a case. And then I do think the last one comes to actually just be like a likeable and authentic person. You know, coming to that point, I think people don't want to feel like they're being sold or they're having like their will pulled over their eyes. And so I think the more you can just build a genuine relationship, it's trust. Do you actually trust that person to look after your money? Yeah, that is the, you know, the Bit that ultimately I think unlocks in our relationship.

[Interviewer]

When do you say the bit? Like in the chat, when do you go, so we're thinking 100 million?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

I don't. Some people would say that, whereas I just sit there and let them tell me what they're thinking.

[Interviewer]

Oh, I see.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

That's. Yeah, I'm not a push.

[Interviewer]

Oh, I see.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Cool. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So they will tell you, oh, we've got X amount, and you say, yeah, that's a good idea.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

And also you probably wouldn't push it on your first, you know, your first date.

[Interviewer]

On your first date, I would just go straight 100 million.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

You'll probably have the relationship and the.

[Interviewer]

Trust before you go to.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

How much money can I have from you?

[Interviewer]

Thank you. You mentioned your friends who has loads of money.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Their kids have to do a pound point. How do you want to play it with your 5 year old?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

I think it's probably one of the biggest concerns of my husband and I, like, you know, we talk about it the most. Like you worry about, I guess, privilege and it's basically not being spoiled.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

At the moment you realise actually he has no desire for material things, which is great. And so I think more at the moment our conversation is how do we make sure it stays like this, that he isn't attaching to things? But it is hard because kids see things that they want and they're always wanting them. And so we're trying to work out how we just don't give him everything he wants. You're probably much more experienced in this and kind of can give me advice in it. You know, what he doesn't like is like Mummy going off to work or Mum and Dad being at work and so actually explaining to them that the more you kind of buy and spend, the more you have to work. And there's kind of a relationship between the two. And actually this year, having lots of time together, it has been good for that. You know, it's less. It's more about actually just having quality time. So I feel like there's been less focus on things. You know, they don't want things ultimately. They just want your presence and your focus doesn't involve.

[Interviewer]

So he doesn't want you to go back to work?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

No, but not. Not working is not an option.

[Interviewer]

So he just works like three days a week. Do you have to work the whole.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

The whole time at the moment?

[Interviewer]

Hello. It's all right.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Oh, you've got you little.

[Interviewer]

Not that little.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yeah. I think in time that would be ideal. I think at the moment he's at school, you know, I can work when he's at school. I don't feel like I'm compromised in terms of not seeing him. I think it's the, you know, the intensity of the work outside of his school hours or the travel, that's a bit where you would feel.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I'm very intrigued about what you're. I don't know, very intrigued about you going back into this work will mean. Because I just think, like, he seemed to have. You're going back into it with, like, a very, very heightened sense of awareness.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And quite a changed person.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

So am I. Well, that's why I've done all this news for a while.

[Interviewer]

And you're going to be around the same, you know, the same kind of people you were around before. I feel like stuff is going to happen, like it's going to be some kind of, you know, you're going to. There must be some clash there. And that's going to be quite interesting.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

It will be. Hopefully where I'm joining is it won't be like that, but I think in the wider industry, definitely, I'll naturally be. Yeah. Like, kind of surrounded by a lot of people who just are operating on different frequency, you know, and it works for them, but it's not where I am. And so we'll. I think that is going to be. The interesting thing is, like, how much have I changed that? Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

Did you say you've had surgery or you're about to have.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yeah, I've had several operations, yeah.

[Interviewer]

How have they been?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Because my cancer was found early and it was very localised. I haven't had to go through chemo and the things which I know, more like knock your body around long term. So actually I've seen the fact that they could just surgically, you know, operate, which is essentially meant a double mastectomy as like a positive thing, because it's something that actually, like, yes, it's removing something, but it's not an organ that I need, so it doesn't impact me kind of long term. And the recovery is about six weeks. You know, it's not in the scheme of my life, me being knocked around for years and years after having to have, like, drugs pumped through my body and things. So, yeah, even that I felt kind of lucky in a way, that that was my. You know, and it never felt traumatic for me. Like, actually, my best friend who was with me when I got diagnosed, said my instinct as soon as the doctor said to me, it's cancer about the lump. I was like, okay, cool. So what do you do? Do we just cut my breasts off? And she was like, that's literally what you said back to her. Even though at the point we didn't know what was going to be the part, she was like, it's kind of like, you know, that felt like the easiest kind of, you know, thing for me. And so, yeah, so you have to have several surgeries where they kind of remove, and then I have one more surgery where they essentially reconstruct. What.

[Interviewer]

I mean, What's the experience like of going from, you know, having breasts then to no breasts? And then obviously you haven't had reconstruction yet.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

No, but what they do is they put. I learned a lot about breast reconstruction. They put these things in called inflators, and they slowly, over, like, two months, inflate you back up to your normal size. So that's where I am now. To then be. Have proper kind of implants put in. So the experience of, like, not having breasts, I think if I had gone from breasts to being completely fit until now, would probably have felt strange over summer. But actually, my breasts have never been kind of part of my identity. And also, when you're in this period of time where you literally think, am I going to be here to see my son grow up?

[Interviewer]

Yeah, you just don't.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

You kind of, like, take a limb to, like, let me, like, have this life. And so it was a really easy decision. And that's. And also for me, it just felt like once actually, it was done and the cancer was gone. Mentally, the anxiety about, could this be growing? Could it be spreading? Went with it. That's when I felt my mind suddenly went quiet and was like, okay, now I can kind of rebuild from here, and it's gone, and I'm kind of free.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, okay. Yeah. Really interesting. So they always inflate them back up. I'm just confused about how that works.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

It is strange. There is, like, I can feel valves, and they literally will just put a needle in, and every few days or weeks, they just inject more and more liquid back into you to kind of. And then the funny thing is you start having these conversations with surgeons, and they're like, oh, do you want to go to, like, double D? And I'm like, definitely. Like, you know, like he said, like, most women will actually choose to then go up a bit, like, when they're having reconstruction. For me, actually, in terms of feeling like myself, I was like, no, it's quite important. Important for me that I go back to being the same size that I was.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, that makes sense. Penance with a question for you. What's the most beautiful thing you've seen out and about on your walks recently?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

I've become really obsessed with light, you know, like, and I think it's going slower and just seeing things that I previously would have been on my phone and walking past and not seeing them. Recently, it's been like if I'm swimming or in the ponds or when you see the light in the water and just noticing things I hadn't noticed before. But actually when I was walking the other day and it had been raining and I just suddenly saw all of these spider webs and the light was coming through them, and it just felt like another reminder to slow down, which is the more I slow down, the more I actually often see. So that would probably be the one that came straight to mind.

[Interviewer]

Oh, that's a very nice one.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Well, thanks so much for talking to me. It's been very interesting.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Yeah, no, thanks for stopping.

[Interviewer]

Last question. You can either answer this in a now kind of way or a future kind of way, however you want to do it. It's up to you. Or both. What are you going to do next?

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

I'm gonna go off, be slow, finishing my walk, and then try and bring that out of the heap into my life as well, and just go forward in a really slow way and just be.

[Interviewer]

Great. Well, very best of luck to you.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Thanks.

[Poet / Performer]

I used to hate Monday. I was moving too far Never touched Took notice of the world as it.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

Part.

[Poet / Performer]

Not the glimmering water Both the river bend or the light on the silk song A spot the world I was chasing A feeling of D in my world.

[Interviewer]

Through.

[Poet / Performer]

Pleded w. Took a bold from.

[Finance Professional / Cancer Survivor]

A.

[Poet / Performer]

None of it work. Without who we are when we land on this earth Cause we are who we are when we land on this earth we are who we are who we are. Now I don't hate Monday. Spend the watch in the trees Trying to move more at that frequency Finding, finding a rhythm here in the breeze Learning to linger Learning to be.