EPISODE 73: Shut The F*** Up and Enjoy Your Life

Summary

Strangers on a Bench — Episode 73: Shut The F*** Up and Enjoy Your Life

Host: Tom Rosenthal
Guest: Anonymous Stranger
Date: February 2, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this profoundly open and humorous episode, Tom Rosenthal sits beside a mysterious stranger on a London park bench and delves deep into topics ranging from coping with life’s frustrations and perspectives on gratitude to the hazards and lessons from a life spent in conflict zones. Through stories that veer from the absurdity of British rail replacement buses to facing real danger as an investigative journalist, this episode challenges listeners to gain perspective, cherish the ordinary, and, as the title says, “Shut the F*** Up and Enjoy Your Life.”

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. On Cherishing the Ordinary (00:54 – 09:09)

• Sunday Evenings & Routines: B fondly recalls Sunday evenings spent at jazz gigs, enjoying the calm that precedes the working week.
  • "That's why I liked it. Not many people came out and I just would go for jazz… those who come out are actually avoiding all the regular craziness." (01:06)
• Routine Disrupted by Bank Holidays: The unexpected arrival of bank holidays ("not in the diary") throws off B’s carefully structured schedule, much to his frustration.
• Perspective on Everyday Annoyances: B is an ardent supporter of unions and labor strikes, uses transport delays to reflect on how privileged Londoners are compared to cities like Cairo or Lagos.
  • “Packed like sardines doesn't fucking physically happen here.” (07:24)
  • “I already know. I know that I’m lucky. So you don’t have to come and shove the replacement bus down my throat to remind me.” (04:45)

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2. The Internal Dialogue — Coping with Modern Life (09:24 – 13:57)

• Multiplicity of Self: B describes the inner workings of his mind as multiple versions of himself—“Doomsday Guy,” “Coffee Guy,” “Laundry Guy”—constantly squabbling or negotiating priorities.
  • “One of them is, the world's going to shit… The other one... ‘Sit down beside me and have a coffee.’ And those two are always at play.” (09:50–10:09)
• Focus vs. Chaos: He reflects on periods of tunnel vision during his career (“security, terrorism, and military in the Middle East”) and the personal cost of prolonged focus—loss of balance and personal neglect.

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3. Life as an Investigative Journalist in Conflict Zones (13:59 – 19:41)

• Career Details: B worked independently, not for the powerful, but exposing and investigating them. He describes his work as inherently perilous, often met with direct threats and violence.
  • “Whenever I met people in a position of power… it was to tell them ‘you are stupid motherf***ers.’” (14:06)
• Surviving Danger: Stories of enduring shootings, threats, and life-threatening circumstances, punctuated by a survivor’s wry humor.
  • “I can’t say a favorite one, but… they’re all my favorites because I survived all of them.” (15:52)
  • “They’re not aiming at us. They’re aiming at everyone. They want to turn the whole world down back to the other side of the street.” (17:15)
• Aftermath and Gratitude: Despite the danger, B emphasizes how these experiences have shaped his profound sense of gratitude and humility.

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4. The Art of Minimalism and Escape (20:06 – 23:33)

• The “Go” Bag: B keeps a small “necessities” bag to be ready for emergencies—practical items, cash, and clothing (strictly dark colors to avoid visible grime).
• Lessons from Scarcity: Contrasts casual UK concerns (“train is late”) with survival realities in war-torn regions, highlighting perspective and gratitude.

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5. Walking, Hiking, and Relationships (23:44 – 29:56)

• Love for Hiking: Walking is B’s therapeutic refuge, learned out of necessity covering ground in remote locations, now cherished as a chosen activity.
• Connection: Hiking with his girlfriend is central to his happiness—he admires her toughness and their unconventional relationship.
  • “We can do anything together. We can forage in the forest or dine at the most luxurious place. And it all works out so beautifully.” (27:42)
• Relationship Wisdom: Rejects societal “manuals” for relationships or hikes (“Who the f*** came up with those manuals?” (29:52)). Advocates for individuality and shared joy over conventions.

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6. Childhood, Temper, and Adaptation (31:52 – 34:23)

• Non-traditional Upbringing: B grew up across multiple continents and schools, fostering a flexible identity.
• Temper Tamed: Intense environments forced him to suppress emotional reactions for survival; now reflects on when responding to anger is truly worthwhile.

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7. Obsession with Order, Pens, and Boundaries (37:17 – 41:26)

• Finicky Habits: Fastidious about his environment, from keeping crisp cash hidden in books to needing a “life manager” (but not a maid).
• Desk Details: Possesses 50+ identical pens, organized to his own inscrutable logic.
  • “The point is it’s none of your business.” (39:42)
• Professional Paradox: Despite making a career out of asking hard questions, B bristles at personal questions about his pen collection, playfully highlighting the blurry line between curiosity and intrusion.

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8. Interviewing in Danger: Human Needs and War Reporting (41:46 – 51:16)

• Talking to Terrorists: B says even those in extremist groups desire to be heard, and he found “the ones who had no power whatsoever had more freedom to speak their mind.”
• Misconceptions: He challenges the idea that “bad” or “good” people are born that way—circumstances shape us.
  • “The idea that some criminal or some podcast maker or some journalist… were just born and destined to become this person… is so fucking stupid.” (44:47)
• Disengagement: Ultimately, exhaustion and risk prompted him to withdraw from war reporting, noting the futility in continuing amidst escalating danger.

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9. New Interests and Media Responsibility (47:12 – 52:06)

• Pause on Journalism: Now “on a break,” B discusses flirtations with new interests, e.g., video games—but overthinking kills the enjoyment.
• Blacked-Out Conflicts: Critiques the lack of media attention for wars in Sudan, Gaza, etc., attributing the silence to government suppression and journalistic intimidation.

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10. Emotional Impact and Acts of Kindness (52:54 – 54:18)

• Kindness Chains: Recent act of kindness—receiving coins from a stranger on the train, which he later passed along to a delivery worker, helping soothe his own anger from watching distressing news.
• The Value of Small Acts: B emphasizes that these small gestures are more important than they seem, connecting us in a world where helplessness abounds.

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11. Invisibility, Identity, and Self-Protection (54:28 – 56:08)

• Invisible Occupations: In social settings B avoids discussing his work, preferring to joke about absurd career changes over revealing his dangerous past.
  • “The only reason I haven’t given you a five pound and told you to fuck off is that I accepted that you sit down and record a podcast with me.” (54:54)
• Boundaries and Playful Defiance: Maintains strict boundaries with humor—offers to try ballet/dance in underwear with the host if the conditions are right, but warns he’ll be hiding behind a tree “with a shield.”

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12. Final Reflections & Message (57:47 – End)

• Vivid Memory Exercise: B describes a vivid memory of the Egyptian desert—not as barren, but as alive and transformative.
  • “Desert is so beautiful. Far more beautiful than, I guess, a cornfield or an apple orchard. But it's not a competition of beauty… The grandness of nature… gives us our line of sight.” (57:51–59:27)
• On Plans and Gratefulness: Ends with gratitude for the derailment of his day by the podcast—urges that being grateful is what helps one forget frustrations.
• Parting Message: Recommends everyone keep physical coins for random acts of kindness, especially for vulnerable and homeless people.
  • “Coins were one of the easiest acts of kindness that we used to do. …Let's all have coins in our pockets.” (60:40–61:13)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Perspective:

  “Shut the fuck up and enjoy your lives.” (08:05 – Speaker B)

• On Survival:

  “At the end of the day, they're all my favorites because I survived all of them.” (15:52 – Speaker B)

• On Questioning:

  “There's a very big difference between asking a question and questioning someone… The point is it's none of your business.” (41:08 – Speaker B)

• On Human Experience:

  “There's always that need in all of us humans to speak our minds and to say our piece… It transcends all the boundaries.” (42:29 – Speaker B)

• On Kindness:

  “Coins were one of the easiest acts of kindness that we used to do… Let's all have coins in our pockets.” (60:40–61:13 – Speaker B)

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Timestamps Section Guide

| MM:SS | Segment Summary | |-------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:54 | Sunday evenings, jazz, and routines | | 03:31 | Support for striking workers and perspective on transport delays | | 07:24 | Rant on "packed like sardines" vs Cairo/Lagos/Mumbai | | 09:24 | Internal dialogues—Doomsday Guy, Coffee Guy, etc. | | 13:22 | Background—career in security, terrorism, journalism | | 15:52 | Stories of surviving shootings in Cairo | | 20:06 | Packing a “Go” bag; lessons from crisis zones | | 23:44 | The joys and logistics of hiking and minimalism | | 27:42 | Reflections on unconventional relationships | | 34:23 | Childhood across continents, adapting personal temperament | | 37:17 | Order, cash, and boundaries (desk/pens/life manager) | | 41:46 | On interviewing dangerous people—everyone wants to be heard | | 44:47 | Criminals/podcast makers/journalists—circumstances shape identity | | 47:12 | Moving away from journalism, considering new obsessions | | 48:32 | Media attention, or lack thereof, for global conflicts (Sudan, Gaza, etc.) | | 52:54 | Small acts of kindness, chain reactions—coins to delivery guys | | 54:54 | Invisible self; avoiding “job talk” in social situations | | 57:47 | Vivid memory: the Egyptian desert, freedom in nature | | 60:40 | Call to bring back coins & pocket charity |

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Tone and Style

The episode is both candidly humorous and deeply philosophical, shifting effortlessly between playful banter and powerful reflections. The guest speaks with dry wit, hard-earned wisdom, and a lightly worn sense of having “seen too much”—yet never losing sight of beauty, chance, and gratitude in daily life.

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Final Thought

By the end of the exchange, listeners are left with a rare confluence of laughter, appreciation of simple pleasures, and awareness of the world’s deeper hardships. The stranger’s lasting message:
Keep coins in your pocket, cherish your comforts, and don’t wait for crisis to remind you of your luck.
“Shut the f*** up and enjoy your life.”

Transcript

[A]

Hello. Sorry to bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a. First question? Do you have a favourite day of the week?

[B]

I used to. Sunday evening used to be my favorite day of the week.

[A]

Sunday evening? Yeah. That's interesting. A lot of people would say that they hated that because it was work the next day or Monday the next day.

[B]

Well, that's why I liked it. Not many people came out and I just would go for jazz, live jazz, where those who come out are actually avoiding all the regular craziness that interesting happens on Friday evening, Saturday evening, especially Sunday evening.

[A]

We're your people.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. That Sunday jazz was still is special. But then again comes bank holiday Monday and that ruined my week. First of all, I never learned about it until it happened. I don't follow bank holidays. They're not important for me.

[A]

Not in the diary.

[B]

Yeah. And I'd be like, what the hell's wrong with this world? Coming to interrupt holidays. Coming to interrupt my schedule. What is this? And no one even thought of asking me or telling me beforehand.

[A]

They should have written a formal apology.

[B]

Something like that.

[A]

So these Sunday evenings, you still do it?

[B]

I still do it on and off. Not as much, unfortunately. I'd love to go back to the religious Sunday evening routine. So what happened?

[A]

What went wrong?

[B]

I just, you know, the whole world gone wrong, which it does that all the time, but somehow I forget and then my forgetfulness ends up making me pay and disrupting my comfortable routines.

[A]

Yeah. Tell me, tell me as your creature of routine, then what else is your Sunday routine? Take me from waking up all the way through to this magical Sunday jazz time with your people.

[B]

So when it used to be religious, that led me to arranging everything around it.

[A]

Oh, okay. So what was.

[B]

So I wake up, I'd wake up on Sunday, what time? I'd wake up early, come to the park, have my coffee so I could film me now and then do laundry, shave, shower, cook, gaze up my abyss and finish everything before 4pm Everything must be finished before 4pm At 4pm, shut down all the engines except for the jazz related engines. Yeah, I just. Yeah, go. Another thing, I'm a really big supporter of working class and the labor unions taking action.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So whenever the tube goes on strike, everyone is angry. I'm not. I'm like, good for you guys.

[A]

You're going high Five.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Through the railings.

[B]

Can't find any of them to give them a high five. But I'm giving them replacement bus.

[A]

You can tell the railroad basic bus.

[B]

Those I don't like.

[A]

You don't like rail replacement buses because.

[B]

They remind you of how easy the Tube is.

[A]

It is easy.

[B]

The Tube is easy. And I know a lot of people who don't understand that, who would complain about the Tube or whatever. And I'm like, guys, we're like living in a holiday. This is a holiday time to other places.

[A]

Yeah, good point.

[B]

But the rear replacement would remind me of that in my face. So striking. Then a 20 minute journey would take you 2 hours and 20 minutes. And if it's summer, the sun is literally concentrated on that one bus. I'm in. The hell's wrong with you, son? And this bus moved.

[A]

What's wrong with you, son? The big sun, the massive fireball thing. Yeah. But it's good to be reminded how lucky we are though, sometimes. Maybe that's the beauty of royal placement.

[B]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. But the reason it angered me is I'm really good at reminding myself every day to cherish everything.

[A]

Oh, cherish everything.

[B]

Yeah. Love it.

[A]

Big cherisher.

[B]

Yeah. So when something comes to remind me, I look at it and I'm like, I already know. I know that I'm lucky. So you don't have to come and shove the replacement bus down my throat to remind me.

[A]

You know what you'd be very good at? Well, for particular delays on the train. When they had to announce the delays, then follow up is you going, listen, guys, you don't know how lucky you are.

[B]

I've said that a hundred times. I actually had a face off with someone on the tube in London. It was my first six months here or something. Ordinary guy, just like all of us.

[A]

Just a basic guy.

[B]

And he was yelling at the staff on the platform because the train was late or something. It was something like 15 minutes or 10 minutes. And he was all up in arms and I was like, have you been to anywhere that does not have the London tube?

[A]

Yeah. And you told him that you were saying.

[B]

Yeah. And he was like, have you been to Japan? That was his reaction. And I was like, okay, you're far, long gone. There is no remedy for you. So you move on. And we're gonna wait for the time.

[A]

Did it start as a. Did it get physical? No, no, no.

[B]

Because there's a twist here.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

If you fell in love, of course. Analytically fell in love. Yes. If he was a Physical person, he'd open a pathway for action.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

He hasn't. And I don't think he ever does.

[A]

Oh, I see.

[B]

So he was that kind of person who would just stir up the whole thing but not lead to anything.

[A]

But maybe he remembered. Maybe he. Maybe he thinks of you every day.

[B]

I hope they might think of you. I'd rather Marilyn Monroe has me on her mind.

[A]

A dead Marilyn Monroe?

[B]

Sure. Even that's better still alive. A dead Marilyn Monroe or a dead Albert Anistein have a meal on their mind in the grave. Yeah, I'd rather have those think about me at night than some guy who yells at the transport worker for a 10 minute delay.

[A]

Let's play a game then. Let's imagine for the sake of it. Imagine you're telling a train full of passengers at rush hour they're packed in like sardines, right. And you, Mr. Stranger, is going to pop up. So I say the train is delayed by five minutes. And now a message from our sponsor, Stranger X.

[B]

Okay. The first thing I would say is like the stage setup from the interviewer, which is you, is wrong because. Because packed like sardines doesn't have it in this part of the world. You have not seen packed like sardines until you live in Cairo, a city of 22 million people, until you lived in Lagos in Nigeria, until you lived in Mumbai. Packed in like sardines doesn't fucking physically happen here. It doesn't. I really hope I'm never in that position to have to tell the tube commuters to shut the fuck up and enjoy your life. I mean, seriously. Because that's the way it's gonna come out. Yeah. That they will remember. Yeah.

[A]

Shut the fuck up and enjoy your love. Seriously. Yeah, Love it.

[B]

I remember. I'll give you like a personal experience. I moved from Cairo and I landed in Istanbul. I met a friend of mine who lived with us in Cairo for a while. And then we got on the tram. He was like, oh, yeah, we're getting on at the rush hour, it's crowded. And I looked around me and I was like, dude, have you lost your mind? You were with us in Cairo. What are you talking about? The closest person to me is like 20cm away. If we have this in Cairo, we would call it the grace of God. I mean, listen, I complain as well, just like everyone. I think complaining and whining is a human right that should be constitutionally protected.

[A]

True.

[B]

But don't pretend that it's real and don't pretend that what you're saying bears any reality whatsoever. What you're saying is, you know it's. I know. It's the tube itself, the train itself. The metal knows it's. So shut the up and enjoy your lives.

[A]

Beautiful. Talk about complaints. What was the last complaint you had, even actually? It could have been internally. Could have been just for yourself.

[B]

I make complaints to myself all the time. That's the ongoing conversation inside my head. There's a dozen of me sitting inside my brain complaining, at least. Yeah.

[A]

And they're complaining. What about the other people in the dozen or everything? Everything. Who are these figures in your brain?

[B]

All versions of me, which is.

[A]

Can we cover the 12 versions or a few different ones?

[B]

There are two who are fighting all the time.

[A]

Okay, Hit me.

[B]

One of them is, the world's going to shit.

[A]

Doomsday Guy.

[B]

Yeah. Not in a uneducated, lacking understanding perspective, but from a very educated perspective, if we can say that.

[A]

So this guy's educated in there?

[B]

Highly.

[A]

Yeah, highly. And then what's the other one?

[B]

The other one is also highly educated. If you are saying that, then what the hell are we talking about? Sit down beside me and have a coffee. And those two are always at play.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

Those. They never sleep.

[A]

They're in the ring at all times.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. They're. They're like, sit down.

[A]

Have a coffee.

[B]

The other one's like, what the hell is wrong with you? Sit down and have a coffee. I'm telling you the world's ending and you're telling me, sit down and have a coffee. And it keeps on like this. Each one of them is trying to win the argument.

[A]

Are there any third players?

[B]

Of course.

[A]

What's the C. What's the C saying? C and D. I was like, shut the fuck up.

[B]

Both of you. Come help me with laundry.

[A]

Or laundry. Laundry guy's in there. That's what's happening. The laundry.

[B]

And it keeps going. And the same way the world never stops producing assholes, My brain never stops producing those versions of myself sitting there at this infinite table. And all of them have a piece to say I don't like. What am I supposed to do? One of them is gonna show up and be like, burn the table.

[A]

Just burn everything. So let's imagine Brain guy number the B1 went on holiday for a week. Right? And so you were just left with Doomsday Guy.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Is he calling you to action? What's Doomsday Guy wanting from you?

[B]

Well, see, it's a. It's a. It's a very good point. I hope it was Achievable, but. But I don't think it is. But we're always fighting to declutter and put down the noise in some parts so we can focus on other parts. And I have been specialized for a long time and a part of that it was very necessary to have tunnel vision. Just sit with this one guy. Either it's the doomsday guy, or it's the coffee guy, or it's the I don't care guy. I'm gonna burn the table and walk away. Go to the pub.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But you have to get to that point at some stage to be able to reach some sort of point. Yes, if that's possible. That would be actually comfortable. The only problem is people who try to get to that point of the magical moment of tunnel vision where everything fades in the background except for what you're working on. If we try to achieve that, we're trading off so many other things. Your park time on the bench, you're trading off your personal hygiene. You don't shower once a day, you end up showering once a week. You give up the entire world to be inside the cocoon of specialization and focus. And it's a very dangerous trade off.

[A]

Yeah, I understand. I think basically what you're saying is it's not possible for you to focus on it for any amount of time properly to form an action or not.

[B]

I think based on experience it is, because I have done it before for a stretch of 10 years where I was specialized in a specific line of work in a specific line of subject related to doomsday. Very related.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Can you say what it was?

[B]

Security, terrorism and military in the Middle East.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, fair play.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then you were doing that for 10 years?

[B]

No, I've done it for longer than 10 years. But the. The really hardcore tunnel vision part of it was five years on top of that, three more years of 60% focus, and then I eased my way out of it because, as I told you, it's a very dangerous play. Because there's a world out there. You have other things out there that you need to do.

[A]

So were you in a position of power?

[B]

No, I fucking don't want to be in a position of power.

[A]

You're working for people in a position of power.

[B]

No, the only time I meet people in a position of power is to tell them that you are stupid motherfuckers. Sorry. I wasn't working for anyone at all, by the way. Totally unaffiliated, independent. I was working for myself.

[A]

Oh, okay. Tell me more.

[B]

I'm an investigative journalist.

[A]

Okay, Right, I see now. Okay, but you were trying to expose some people.

[B]

Yeah, I tried, I did, yeah. Very successfully.

[A]

And was your life ever in danger?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

What was that like?

[B]

Well, it varied from being shot out to being told that if you ask those questions we're going to cut your head off, to being told that if you continue down that route you're gonna disappear, to dodging prison, to dodging all sorts of danger, but at the same time to meeting some of the most brilliant people on the face of this earth.

[A]

Yeah, W. I mean, there's lots of questions. One, I'm interested in how you go from that life to sitting at a park in London. I wonder how that transition worked. But let's go back to being shot at. Do you know who shot you? Who shot, aimed a shot at you?

[B]

It was mostly government people, uniformed servicemen. Yeah, fucking servicemen. What kind of service is this? You come and shoot at me?

[A]

Well, yeah, I suppose. Service to someone, I guess. Like what was the scenario? Can you paint the picture?

[B]

There are multiple times, but pick your favorite one. I mean, I can't say a favorite one, but I mean, at the end of the day they're all my favorites because I survived all of them.

[A]

Well, I've picked the most dramatically, I'd.

[B]

Say there are two of them that were really mind boggling because of how I survived and it didn't make any sense. One time in Cairo, we were rushing before beginning of curfew so we can get two missing ingredients for a recipe. Me and a friend. I'm not joking. For food?

[A]

Yeah, for dinner.

[B]

I think it was the only thing we had ingredients for the two missing ingredients. So we're running down. We were very close to police headquarters and as we were trying to get home, we're walking down that street and those policemen show up and they are telling everyone to go back the other way. And they start shooting. One of them shoots a shotgun round.

[A]

Okay, Right.

[B]

And me and my friend are docking in the entrance of a building. So we hear the pellets hitting everything around us. Mind you, pellets are really, really impossible to avoid. If you're at close range, one bullet is going to hit you in one place. The shotgun pellets, they fan out, yes. Smaller, much less lethal, but they will hit you. And we were not hit, neither me or my friends. This guy was literally a couple of meters away and we survived untouched.

[A]

Do you think on reflection that they were kind of trying to miss you? Do you think there's a sense of trying to scare someone or they actually trying to hit you.

[B]

Do you? But this is. Again, this is a very depressing thing to think about, because they're not aiming at us. They're aiming at everyone. It doesn't matter if it's you. It doesn't matter if it's me. They're just aiming at everyone. They want to turn the whole world down back to the other side of the street.

[A]

I see.

[B]

But that does not deny the intent to cause harm. That actually proves the intent to cause whatever harm, and I don't care.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And in that situation, it was hitting the marble walls where we were trying to duck, and you start asking, how did I survive this? Yeah.

[A]

So what did you do that after you survived? Do you still have that meal?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What are you gonna do?

[A]

What do you do with yourself that night when, you know, like, you know, you could have whatever.

[B]

I think we just forgot about it. We mentioned. We mentioned it the next day in passing, and we laughed. It really doesn't bear any value after you get to the point where you realize all the questions around it are futile.

[A]

But then do you feel very kind of lucky?

[B]

Oh, I thought I told you that at the beginning. I'm always lucky. I don't need the replacement bus to remind me that I'm lucky and be grateful.

[A]

That's a good point. But I wonder, like, what, you know, how that affects how you live your life. I suppose it does. After all these events, of course. How are you different today? I mean, what are you doing differently?

[B]

It's a good question. Maybe had I not been through those experiences, maybe I would not be as grateful and as confessing that I am lucky as I am today. Maybe I would have been cocky, full of attitudes, asshole who thinks they can take the world by a storm, or they can look at the transport guy and be like, oh, the cube is late. Have you been to Japan? Maybe I would have been that guy.

[A]

When was the last time you thought, apart from getting on a train, when was the last time you did feel particularly grateful for something? As a practicing grateful person?

[B]

I mean, listen, I don't want this episode of your podcast to turn into an interview with a Buddha or Zen person who just came down from the mountain.

[A]

I mean, we are quite high up.

[B]

So now. I mean, but listen, in general, let's connect this to. If you allow me to connect this to something more realistic.

[A]

You're allowed.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Permission granted.

[B]

So I remember when Covid hit and people started running into shops and like, you Know, toilet paper, toilet roll, Toilet paper. Just.

[A]

That means. Were you here during that?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Okay.

[B]

And I was just standing there rolling my eyes, thinking, what. What the hell is wrong with this world?

[A]

Seriously, People love toilet roll.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

It's the first to go.

[B]

I mean, for me, I mean, the first thing that comes to mind in stressful situation is how can I put together my gear bag in less than one minute and bolt out of the door? I had to do it for so long that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I also lived out of this gear bag, the necessities bag, for weeks on end in the middle of nowhere. So the idea of all the other clutter of the train is late for 10 minutes. Actually, I love when my train is late for 10 minutes. I can smoke another cigarette. Yeah.

[A]

So can we go back to this special bag of yours? What would I be surprised to find in the bag?

[B]

Well, you're going to find the things that I cannot replace in the case of anything going wrong. But I need those things to be able to float safely for a few weeks. So computer, phone, battery, meds, two pairs of underwear, two pairs of socks for changing.

[A]

Nice. Any particular color of the socks or the underwear? Important. Black.

[B]

Yeah. You do not want to be stuck in white underwear if you can't guarantee a shower or socks for that reason. I mean, they're gonna be nasty anyway. But there's a difference between nasty visible white and less visible black.

[A]

Got it. Okay. That's important lesson to learn for the special bag.

[B]

Basic stuff like that. I mean, some people's basic stuff is chocolate bars or protein bars, which actually are important. They're not important in the uk, but there are other parts of the planet right now where a protein bar is considered a miracle.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Gaza Strip, Sudan, of course. Yeah. Think about that. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, that's pretty much the bag.

[A]

It's quite a small bag.

[B]

That's the point.

[A]

You got to move quickly.

[B]

You're going to be carrying that bag. You know, one way of trying this, which I do all the time, is I hike in the country, and it always reminds me of the. Of the weight of my backpack.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When do you go hiking?

[B]

Whenever I can.

[A]

Oh, so you just enjoy it?

[B]

Yeah, I love it. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, fantastic. Where'd you go hiking? What's the longest hike you've ever done?

[B]

25 kilometers every day for a stretch of five, six days.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In this country.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Love this.

[B]

Yeah. I picked up the love for it when I had to do it because I was working in places where there Was no transport. There was no way for you to get from village A to village B.

[A]

Can you think of your best encounter with a stranger whilst hiking? Anything come to mind?

[B]

It's a very interesting encounter. I was hiking with my girlfriend. We were. I think it was South Wales, in the middle of nowhere on a hill that ends up being a ridge straight into the ocean. And as we're hiking, we see this lonesome guy carrying an IKEA bag. One of those big.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, the blue, very useful bags.

[B]

Yeah. And he's in the middle of nowhere. And the bag was empty. There was nothing in it. So he was either.

[A]

And you were sure there was nothing in the bag?

[B]

Yeah, it was just like.

[A]

I mean, he's just flapping about.

[B]

And. Yeah. We always think about this guy. I really, I would have loved, had the opportunity that presented itself to approach this guy and be like, man, please put me out of my misery and tell me what the hell are you doing here?

[A]

Did he get much? Look at his face.

[B]

He was tall. He had a thin face. He did not look at all like a hiker. Like, he wasn't wearing hiking boots. He was just wearing ordinary clothes. He wasn't even wearing waterproof gear. That guy was just wandering about with his IKEA bag. Not a worry in the world. And leaving us all perplexed still talking about him. Yeah.

[A]

Maybe that's what we got to do to be known in life. Walk around an empty bag.

[B]

Or. If this guy was walking in London, no one would think about. No one would see him.

[A]

So this is hiking with your girlfriend?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What are the key benefits of hiking with girlfriend? Hiking without.

[B]

Laugh, laugh. You're happy.

[A]

So this is with her? Yeah.

[B]

Mind you, again, I'm very lucky. My girlfriend, she can hike throughout the day.

[A]

Powerhouse.

[B]

Yeah. We've walked together in the sunniest, most beautiful days, and in minus 25 degrees.

[A]

There'S a couple who walk together, stay together.

[B]

No, we don't live together.

[A]

Oh, but you are together. Oh, yeah. There you go. So has that aided your romance?

[B]

Yeah, of course. Yeah, of course.

[A]

Say a couple was listening to this, or at least someone in a couple. Why is walking together important to a relationship?

[B]

I mean, I'm the last person to be asked about a relationship. I mean, if. If any ordinary person looks up my kind of relationship, they would think that is the most illogical, unhealthy, unproductive relationship ever because. Simply because it's unconventional.

[A]

Okay, well, tell me about it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What's unconventional about it?

[B]

Oh, the very first reason I insisted on meeting this woman is. She had a fight with me before we met.

[A]

She had a fight with you before you met? So on the Internet.

[B]

Yeah. So we in passing floated the idea of meeting on Wednesday. And then we hadn't confirmed, we hadn't set a time or meeting place. So on that Wednesday, I just got up, I went to the Irish pub, I sat down, I got myself a good old beer, or a good old string of beers. Yeah, to be precise. And then I think she messaged me. So I messaged back and she was angry that it's Wednesday and we're not meeting. What the hell is going on? And I was. My reaction was like we hadn't set a time or a place, so what's up? And she got worked up, so I called her and she hung up on me. So I was like, I want to meet this woman. I want to meet. Who the fuck is this woman who hangs up on me before even seeing my face like, this is the one. So I called her immediately back, if I'm going to partner with someone, I'd like to partner with someone who I can trust to go to war with me.

[A]

And hung up on people.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

What's her version, out of interest?

[B]

Her version was I said Wednesday and then I just didn't care and didn't show up on Wednesday or something like that.

[A]

I see.

[B]

You're asking me to give strength to her version of the story on the record. It's not gonna happen, brother. It's not gonna be. Yeah, yucky.

[A]

So you mentioned it was an unconventional relationship. Is it still unconventional? So you don't live together, but what else is unconventional about it?

[B]

I think the unconventional thing about relationship is the beauty of it. We have completely different lives and at the same time we have the most love to each other. We can do anything together. We can forage in the forest together or go dine at the most luxurious seven star place together. Be hiking and figuring out where to fill up the water next, or popping champagne together. And it all works out so beautifully. Yes.

[A]

What has she taught you about the world?

[B]

She is.

[A]

Pretty cool.

[B]

She told me that this guy could be saying it's doomsday. Remember the guy I told you about?

[A]

Oh, you remember that guy? Well, he could forget that guy.

[B]

And I put everything down and go on a hike with her. Not a worry in the world.

[A]

What does she think of doomsday guy?

[B]

She's the most cheerful person ever. I don't want my girlfriend to worry about the doomsday guy. She's of course highly intelligent. She's highly educated. She's in the thick of professional public work and she is thinking about major things and big things and everything. But I don't want her to be worried about the world or like, no, enough for one of us.

[A]

I'm happy to do that. You'll carry that burden. You'll carry Doomsday Guy with you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you won't let him out.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Let's imagine someone's listening to this. They've never been on a hike. What would you say is the minimum distance for a hike?

[B]

We'll see. The same as people have put all of those specifications for a good relationship or specifications for a good day to go out. Like it has to be Friday because you don't have work, that is. I'm like, who the came up with those manuals and was this a democracy or was this just, you know, some sort of dictatorship?

[A]

Like, you know, so height can be any distance. That's what you're saying.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Okay, so back to the question, which was you're trying to, you know, give the three key reasons why this person has never been on a hike of any distance. Should go on a hike. Sell it.

[B]

Well, it's an easy, free of charge, very effective healing mechanism. Like, you really want to have a comfortable day, just put your wallet and your phone in your pocket and just go out and walk aimlessly. Yeah, I mean, I can give you another as like, I can give you another sort of. What they actually have to do these days on podcasts is that you have to keep listing so many good things about something so basic so you convince people of it. It's like, it burns calories, it's good for the bones, it's good for the knees. I have one busted knee and one busted leg. Effects of my work and life in general. I think it was. I think it was a month after I had my knee surgery, I went on a hike with my girlfriend. It was kind of. And guess what? It was one of the most beautiful things I've ever done. It healed my self confidence after the surgery.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To go on a walk. It's just a fucking walk. That's what humans do.

[A]

Very true.

[B]

That's why we have.

[A]

So true. That's why we've got legs. You got to use them.

[B]

Speaking of being grateful, the UK is one of the most beautiful, naturally beautiful countries in terms of countryside, open spaces, nature. Like one of the best map countries in terms of hiking paths in. In the world. Of course someone is going to be like, have you been to Japan.

[A]

You grew up in Cairo, I guess.

[B]

No.

[A]

Oh, okay. Where did you. Where were you born?

[B]

No, no, no, no.

[A]

You don't want to talk about it.

[B]

I would lead to more questions and more questions. I'd have to turn this into one of those podcasts of today.

[A]

You can say when you grow up.

[B]

I grew up in different places, in different continents.

[A]

Do you consider yourself from anywhere?

[B]

Okay, yeah, that's pretty much why I try to avoid that conversation. Those questions altogether, because they lead to a bigger question of identity.

[A]

That's actually not where I was going, though.

[B]

Where were you going?

[A]

I was going somewhere else. I wanted to know what a kind of typical childhood day looked like for you, wherever it was.

[B]

No, didn't have a typical childhood. I had a loving family. I had everything that a child.

[A]

Are they still loving?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, of course. Again, unconventional, but it's perfectly fine.

[A]

Lots of different schools, I guess, then.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

How many?

[B]

Six, seven? I don't remember. Yeah.

[A]

So I'm kind of interested in how you think, Elise, you became you.

[B]

No, it was a long string of everything that formed whatever comes next.

[A]

And you were always allowed to be whatever you needed to be or did.

[B]

Anyone get in the way, as far as I'm concerned? Yeah, Yeah. I always had a temper. I was a crazy kid, of course.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

How big a temper are we talking about?

[B]

I had a temper when I was younger.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

That went nowadays. I managed to have enough temper towards my temper that I made it submit. Works for me now. One of the things that really put a leash on my everything in general is that I didn't have room to have emotions and temper. If you have to deal with checkpoint points and rogue militaries and criminal police divisions and ISIS and wars, and in the midst of all of that, a bunch of spies running in the middle, and you have to keep a pair eyes in the back of your head. It's. It was a grind. And the idea of emotions and all of that just got pushed to the side because there was no play. There was no place for it to drain more energy and to.

[A]

So you just couldn't. But then once you were finally settled, did that mean that temper is finally put away or it could come out to play a bit more?

[B]

No. I think the main question, I think that controls all of this when you grow up, actually grow up mentally, is that you start thinking about the question of is it worth it? But I think since as far back as I can remember, I've been really good at walking away. If I Read a situation as futile, I just pick up and walk away. Or give them £5 and a beer and be like, fuck off.

[A]

Is that a big style of yours? You have lots of fivers or do you just give people a fiver and say fuck off? Quite a good tactic.

[B]

Yeah. I had a wake up call about cash and carrying cash a couple days ago. I was getting on the tube and I found two coins on the seat I was about to sit in. So I looked around me, there was no one. And the guy across the aisle, he looked at me and was like, it's for you.

[A]

Take your money.

[B]

Yeah. And that was the first time I held physical cash in my hand in over a year.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

And again, it reminded me of necessity and the bag. You always have to have cash at home, cash in the bag, somewhere in your book, in your cupboard, whatever is like under the mattress. It's a very basic human thing that everyone, all around the world should have did at some point and should have today. Oh, like everything is on the phone and all those systems are reliant on the cell tower. And I don't consider that cell tower to be a brother, not a member of your family.

[A]

So you had. So you've got cash at home?

[B]

Yeah. You have to. Absolutely.

[A]

How much do you have to have?

[B]

It depends where you are. But like last time I had to have a money belt, it was between Egypt, Libya and Gaza and a money belt was $5,000. And that would keep you going for maybe a couple of weeks, three weeks, four weeks. Yeah. But of course not everyone can have a spare $5,000 on their hand.

[A]

Definitely.

[B]

So I'd say whatever it is, £50, £100, it doesn't matter, just put it away at home just in case that makes sense. I understand most people can't relate, but I have been in blackouts before. Luckily the blackouts that I've experienced were government controlled blackouts.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

They would shut down the system themselves.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I saw what happened and I was in a position where I had cash.

[A]

I'll go with cash is fine. Yeah, I like it. So we've got to keep the cash in a book, you say?

[B]

Yeah, because I'm finicky. I'd like to keep my cash crisp and smooth.

[A]

So are you quite finicky? So you like things in order?

[B]

As much as I can, yeah.

[A]

Is your room very tidy?

[B]

I'd say it's in the top 5%.

[A]

Okay. I like it.

[B]

Yeah. I'd like to have an old school life manager, older lady with a really tough attitude that would put me in my place.

[A]

Like someone in a boarding. Like a boarding.

[B]

No, no, not to that extent. I'd like someone to make me a cup of tea that I would like and bring it to me. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So a maid. Do you want a maid?

[B]

No, A life manager is like, you know, a life manager. You gotta do this. You don't do them after reminding. They would have their way of making you do it.

[A]

I see.

[B]

I mean, I'd be like, listen, my desk. Don't touch it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Why?

[A]

What's wrong with the desk?

[B]

It's going to end up becoming a territorial war. I want it this way.

[A]

You're very particular about the desk.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Walk me through the. What's on your desk and how it's arranged.

[B]

There are a bunch of things on my desk that make absolutely no sense.

[A]

Oh, please say.

[B]

But I like them. And they are all organized in a certain way.

[A]

Okay, tell me.

[B]

I. There's a bunny that lights green, red and yellow. A plastic bunny. And it's sitting there in between the pens and a couple of really, really heavy subject books about philosophy and pain and futurism. And if the house manager comes near the desk, she's gonna be like, those books have been sitting here for three years. You haven't touched them. And I'm like, maybe I.

[A]

Maybe I will touch it.

[B]

Yeah, maybe I will at a certain point in the distant future. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So there's three blokes and the bunny and that's it.

[B]

Many other things.

[A]

Okay. Anything else you can mention?

[B]

I have three empty coffee tins that have around 50 pens in them. No, all three.

[A]

I've crossed them.

[B]

Yeah. And most of them are the same exact model, black pen. And the 10 others are different kinds.

[A]

Oh, across.

[B]

Exactly. Here you go. It's none of your business. I don't have to answer that question. Who the do you think you are to question me on this? See, it does not have to make sense to you, literally, because it's none of your business.

[A]

I love it. Of all the questions I ask as soon as I get to the pens, that's when it's too much. Absolutely fair. I have interest. The volume of pens is quite interesting. Is that because you write a lot furiously?

[B]

That's none of your business. I like it like that. That's the only reason you get to get.

[A]

I'm still glad we did it. I have no regrets. I have no regrets ever going down the alleyway towards your death. I'm glad. I'm glad I got a Picture.

[B]

I'm also glad that I've set the boundaries as a, as, as I've given you notice before. There's always a fiber in my pocket and that fiber is ready to go at any moment. It's an interesting thing about, you know, questioning others especially. I mean, I understand. Questioning everything. Yeah. But questioning others is something that I've never stomached. And mind you, I lived my entire professional career asking questions. And I wasn't just asking questions to someone in a five star office. No, I would willingly go into a terrorist controlled territory, an ISIS controlled territory, and ask them questions and elicit answers. But again, in a normal everyday life, this whole questioning of others is very, very difficult to stomach. And there's a very big difference between asking a question and questioning someone. Like, do you have a pen? That's fine. What's the point of having 50 pens? And I'm like, the point is it's none of your business.

[A]

Did you ever ask terrorists about pens?

[B]

No.

[A]

So you went in there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you think, you think of yourself as a brave person?

[B]

Not really.

[A]

So how does one go and talk to you? So you just rock up in a ISIS run territory and then what did you say? Take me to meet someone.

[B]

First of all, you don't rock up.

[A]

You don't rock up. You call ahead.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then you're just asking them a few questions. And what are you saying, Hammond? So you're saying I'm writing a piece or. I'm.

[B]

Exactly, I'm a journalist. I'm working on this and this and that. I have a few questions for you.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. You must have been in some tense rooms. When people don't want to answer questions, call them tense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what are your tactics then? When they don't want to answer any questions, do you push them or do you just.

[B]

Pushing doesn't work. Pushing leads to the same exact result as you questioning my 50 pins. Yeah.

[A]

So how do you, how do you play it when you're in that situation?

[B]

It boils down to human psychology, which as deranged as human psychology is, and complex and crazy and erratic. There's always that need in all of us humans to speak our minds and to say our piece.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I want to be heard. Yeah. And that transcends all the boundaries of law abiding citizen, podcast maker, doctor, homeless person. It's just a human thing.

[A]

True. Well, I've seen that in my travels. I get that. What do you. I mean, hang on, so let's. In these terrorist organizations, you're Talking to what figures towards the top of the hierarchies or just somewhere along the line?

[B]

Well, I realized that most of the time it was far more beneficial to speak to the ones who had no power whatsoever than to speak to someone higher up. The ones who had no power whatsoever had more freedom to speak their mind. Clearly.

[A]

This makes sense. What would surprise people to hear about those organizations that you talk to? You know, what are the common misconceptions that you think people have.

[B]

Whenever you look at a map of someone else's accumulative circumstances, upbringing, all of that. As you were trying to ask me, where did I live? Where did I grow up, how did I grow up? Whatever. And you realize that the more you look at those charts of someone's life, you start wondering, okay, what would come out of me if I was the person who went through that whole life story? And the idea that some criminal or some podcast maker or some journalist or some doctor were just born and destined to become this person that they are today when I met them and spoke with them, is completely not just false. It is so fucking stupid and it's so disassociated from reality and how the world and the universe work. It's not even worth the debate. It's one of the most striking points that I find worth articulating.

[A]

Yeah, I see. What made you stop all this then?

[B]

Getting old, getting tired. Like my work when I investigated ISIS between Egypt, Libya and Gaza, I got to a point where it was impossible to continue that work physically on the ground if I wanted to remain alive.

[A]

So what's in this new life of yours?

[B]

Are you. You gotta. You have to rephrase that question. What is that? What is.

[A]

Sorry, I was a bit distracted by this couple.

[B]

Yeah, me too.

[A]

I think they're having an argument about her interest in flowers.

[B]

Yeah, the guy made himself very clear from the beginning. He was like, I'm not interested in flowers, which I have to get. I was waiting for him to take a few steps further so I can say, what a fucked up statement.

[A]

Flowers.

[B]

How are you supposed to engage with such a statement?

[A]

Yeah, fair. Sorry. Yeah, My badly asked question. Let's get back to it. Are you still an investigative journalist now?

[B]

Basically, I'm on a break at the moment.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. There are things that you cannot shake off. So, yeah, parts of it I don't think will ever stop. Yeah. And I don't think I want them to stop.

[A]

Yeah, fair.

[B]

Do I want to stop following the news properly in a smart, useful manner? Absolutely not. I think I want actually millions and millions of people to start doing that themselves.

[A]

Yeah, fair. So in this kind of vacuum element of vacuum time, has anything emerged that you've become fascinated by that isn't related to that at all?

[B]

Yeah, there is something actually. So recently I started thinking about video games. Mind you, I haven't played video games in around 20 years. But again, as soon as I dip my toes, I began to analyze the situation which killed it to like, wait a second, video games, possible addiction, hours on end. I can't get it out of my head. I have to kill this project before it even takes off.

[A]

So you must have stopped a lot of fun times in the past. I guess this brain of yours.

[B]

My fun was a completely different kind of fun. Yeah, yeah, of course. I mean, it led me to doing some other things that are priceless.

[A]

Yeah, of course.

[B]

But it's a very interesting thing because I could pick up now and go to a field where I would have plenty of that. The world has no shortage of wars or crises or famine or crime infested regions or. It's like.

[A]

Quick question here before you carry on. What's the war that we don't know enough about? As in there's not all of them. What's the war that is not getting enough headlines in your opinion?

[B]

All of them.

[A]

But some of them are getting all the headlines.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, Sudan is not getting enough headlines.

[A]

That's what I mean.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Man made famine, man made war.

[A]

Why do you think it's not getting enough headlines?

[B]

There's definitely a reason. I worked all my career on a blacked out subject. As in it's not on the news, no media attention. Most of the time that no media attention is government made. Intimidation of journalists, physical blocking of journalists access. Gaza is not getting enough headlines. By the way, I've been to Gaza, I've worked in Gaza, but it's still getting headlines. Well, see, there's a difference between having a headline and actually having journalistic coverage of the situation.

[A]

Would you have gone?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I made a call the next day. But I knew that there's only embeds with the military. And I'm like, no, I haven't done it. When there was no enforced siege, I'm not gonna do it.

[A]

I mean, these last two years have been absolutely a horror show for everybody to witness. But for you, has it meant anything different?

[B]

I'll tell you the very sad point is that the first week of the war I received two calls from two people. We know each other's work. We're very connected from different sides to this whole regional mess of Gaza, Israel, Egypt, all of that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And both of them were like, you told us this is going to happen, that Gaza is going to blow up. For a journalist, when it comes to bad shit, being right beforehand is very painful because you have spent time working and telling everyone that there's a crisis coming. There's a crisis coming. No one listened. In my case, I told governments, I told the public, I published. I sat in conferences, I sat in briefings, I sat in.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then no one listened. And that is something I've said to governments before. Where the were you? But again, if we look at human history, it's like a human feature that we never do something beforehand. We're really, really shitty. Yeah, exactly. I mean, we can't really say that we're reacting because we've created the mess in the first place.

[A]

So you felt a kind of a painful sense of, is it powerlessness? Like, you know, you.

[B]

Every, every specialized journalist in the world has two basic lines. You can say. Yeah, either we absolutely have no power. We know that we have no power. So we're always gonna be disappointed. You're just the guy holding the alarm bell, ringing it all the time and no one listens. Or some others see it from the perspective of it's not my job.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To fix anything. My job is sounding the alarm. That's it. Yeah. But again, it's a very difficult place to be and they have to live with it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know.

[A]

But you know, people on the ground there.

[B]

Of course. Yeah, of course.

[A]

How often do you talk to them?

[B]

As often as. As often as the world allows it. We really ruined people's mood at the. The podcast. Right. We should have stuck with the have you been to Japan guy.

[A]

No, it's good. It's good to get the, you know, full breadth. Full breadth of stuff. That's what I say. Listen, I'm going to ask you two more questions and I'm going to leave you alone. What's the kindest thing a stranger's done for you recently?

[B]

The kindest thing a stranger has done for me. I. I can't remember anything recently. That's very. That's very unfortunate. I never thought about it, but it's very unfortunate. Never know.

[A]

Okay. I mean, the kind stranger let you have. Those coins.

[B]

Those coins I actually gave to a delivery guy a couple days ago. I think I was. I was watching the news at night and it was making me so pissed off that as soon as I Saw the notification that the delivery guy was around the corner. It immediately came to my mind that the only thing I can do about my anger towards the news is to just take those two coins and I gave them to the guy. I was like, I think that is a kind thing that was done to me by a stranger because if that guy hadn't showed up with the delivery yet and made me give him the coins, I would have not felt good about anything in this hour when I was watching the news, which I tell you is not the most enjoyable activity.

[A]

Yeah, I'm with you now. With you. Let's say this. What do you think is invisible about you? Let's imagine you go to a pub and people are talking to you all evening. What do you think they're not seeing.

[B]

At all my work as you don't talk about it? Nah. It opens up conversations and questions and pushes me closer and closer. Very close to the five pounds. Yeah. The only reason I haven't given you a five pound and told you to fuck off is that I accepted that you sit down and record a podcast with me. It's like had you been a random person, you would have gotten that fiverr the first 10 minutes or so.

[A]

Well, I'm glad, glad we're recording it. What is the. You know what if they could. Everyone's gonna come sniffing around in someone's job, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So does that mean you're very good at going? No. Well, let's talk about your football team. Do you know what I mean?

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Are you good at.

[B]

I think the last conversation at the pub was about me either becoming a ballet dancer or underwear fashion model.

[A]

What did he land on?

[B]

I was told not to go towards ballet dancer. And why Danny the fucker said that I'm too old for ballet dancing.

[A]

What does Danny know exactly? What was the other option?

[B]

Ballet or underwear fashion model.

[A]

Underwear fashion model. You can also do that?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You could do both?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

In one day you could walk down this path doing both. Tomorrow's the day.

[B]

Despite how far humans have come in the so called civilized world, I don't think waltzing through the park, balleting in underwear would be considered an acceptable thing.

[A]

I reckon you could do it in this park.

[B]

In this park? Yeah. You're not from here. I can tell you.

[A]

I can tell you.

[B]

Not from here.

[A]

No, but I mean, you know, everyone that's passed us look like they're fairly tall, tolerant, accepting people.

[B]

We're not balleting in underwear.

[A]

This is a good point. This is a good point. Yeah, that's a good shout. Yeah, I didn't think about that. But I mean.

[B]

I mean, listen, I'll tell you this in all seriousness. We exchanged numbers after the podcast. You find the place where we can do that, and when you find that, you call me. I'll come and meet you. I'll buy you. I'll buy you lunch, and you show us the way. I'll be 10 yards away from you behind the tree with a shield, looking at you, maybe recording, and I will wish you well. I will hope that that ends on a good note.

[A]

I love that. I love that.

[B]

Great.

[A]

That's a plan if ever there was one. That's a. Okay. Penultimate thing I ask people to do. I'm going to close my eyes. I'm going to invite you to the same thing. Okay. And then I'm going to ask you to picture a scene from your past that you can remember in vivid detail and kind of be back there, and then ask you to describe that. Can that work?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Let's do it then. My eyes are closed.

[B]

Okay. So it's not an empty room. It's an open space. It's the desert in Egypt. And people think about desert in general, and they think it's barren. It's useless, it's dead. No, absolutely not. Desert is so beautiful. Far more beautiful than, I guess, a cornfield or an apple orchard. But it's not a competition of beauty. The point is the grandness of nature and the freedom of nature. And it's very interesting that we need that grand, vast thing that is bigger than us to give us our line of sight. Without that, you're not gonna have what you feel as the sense of freedom that we describe when we're in the country. And it's alive, by the way. Desert is 100% alive. The sand particles are moving. The dunes are changing between seasons. They are transforming. If there is heavy rain or absolutely no rain. Yeah.

[A]

Very good answer.

[B]

Love that.

[A]

Delicious. Thank you. Well, we've reached the end.

[B]

As we always do.

[A]

As we always do. So the last question for you. What are you going to do next?

[B]

Today or tomorrow or in general?

[A]

Both. Everything today. Whatever you want.

[B]

I don't want to get up, start walking home and wondering, what the hell's wrong with this guy? Why fight? Why didn't I give him a fiver and let him go like the last one? What have I gotten myself into? To be honest, I haven't planned anything. I actually had planned anything. And you ruined it. You showed up and derailed the whole plan. So you have to come up with a new plan. Fucking be grateful again. Being grateful is the only thing that would make me forget about you derailing my plans.

[A]

Thank God for your gratefulness. Save me. Where are my coins? I'm going to start dropping coins now.

[B]

Seriously?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Just one note, if you allow me to.

[A]

You go for it. You go for it.

[B]

I know that everything is paid for by card, but go to the ATM once a month, take out £30. Take £1 each day. With you. It's really important. There are homeless people. There's, like, you know, the. There's stuff that we stopped doing that was regular act of kindness.

[A]

True.

[B]

Yeah, it's very good. Coins were one of the easiest acts of kindness that we used to do.

[A]

Let's get coins back.

[B]

I mean, seriously, it's like you can't give them anything.

[A]

Yeah, very true.

[B]

Let's all have coins in our pockets. In our coins. Pocket money. Yeah, pocket money. Exactly.

[A]

So it is.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, if there's any useful message that we can send through your podcast.

[A]

Yep. Coins would be it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, thank you. That's a good final message. I've just realized I never asked you if you have been to Japan.

[B]

I don't have a fiber on me. That's what you're looking for. Don't push it.

[A]

Thank you so much for your time.

[B]

You're most welcome. It's a pleasure.

[A]

Life ain't easy but it's fine Let the workers go on strike Sing this song and let it hold you Shut the up and enjoy your life. Life ain't easy it's all right Let the moment be your guide Sing this song and let it hold you Shut the up and enjoy your life. Sa.