EPISODE 79: Cormorants and Lewis Hamilton

Summary

Strangers on a Bench

Episode 79: Cormorants and Lewis Hamilton

Host: Tom Rosenthal
Guest: Anonymous (B)
Date: March 16, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this intimate and moving episode, Tom Rosenthal strikes up a conversation on a seaside bench with an anonymous 63-year-old man (B), a stage and TV actor and voiceover artist. They delve into themes of finding one’s path, the profound influence of a parent, love late in life, heartbreak, the lingering mark of family tragedy, the joys of small-town connections—and, unexpectedly, the appeal of both cormorants and Lewis Hamilton. B’s openness, wit, and unfiltered storytelling make for a frank exploration of hope, loss, aging, ambition, regrets, and the enduring quest for connection.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Childhood, School, and the Rescue of Theatre

• Days of the Week as Symbols:
  • B loves Friday, calling it “like Christmas Eve,” full of anticipation (00:52).
  • Sunday, once dreaded as a child for heralding school, is now appreciated.
• Difficulties at School:
  • Disengagement: “I wasn’t very good at it. I wasn’t very good at learning. I wasn’t very good at concentrating.” (01:25, B)
  • Found traditional education unfitting; cites a wish for more arts-based schooling.
• Mother’s Intervention:
  • Mother forces B to attend youth theatre, initially against his will, bartering it with football tickets (03:43–04:59).
  • Mother’s rare vision and persistence praised: “Good old Mum, mate. Absolutely.” (02:47, B)
• Discovering a New World:
  • Theatre people described as “extraordinary” and liberating (05:15, B).
  • Youth theatre leads to close friendships, backstage work, and eventually drama school (05:44–06:10).
• Impact of Mother’s Choice:
  • B: “Amazing, really, that she did that for me.” (06:10)
• Reflecting on Parental Roles:
  • Mum as visionary, Dad as solid support—“he hadn’t got the vision like Mum had” (07:53).
• Brothers and Siblings:
  • Mother’s intervention unique to B, who “needed a bit of a base” (08:19).
  • B was a “tear away” as a youth; theatre offered stability and direction.

Lean Years, Place, and the Power of Routine

• How B Coped During Career Lulls:
  • “Read, watch telly, see friends, go back home.” (06:43, B)
• Childhood Sundays:
  • Sunday School described as pointless and disbelieved in—religion likened to Father Christmas, Tooth Fairy (07:08).
• Family Dynamics:
  • Sundays full of family, “Mum’s roast…always fabulous” (07:40).
• Father’s Role:
  • Present but without the same guiding spark as Mother.

The Current – Place, Personality, and Letting Go

• Bench Life & Local Community:
  • B’s bench is a social anchor: “That’s one of the beauties of this—you get to know folk.” (11:08)
  • Friendship with Greg, who takes photos of locals.
• Ageing and Ego:
  • B becomes less self-conscious about looks: “Old, wrinkly and old and grey whiskers as opposed to black whiskers. But yeah, fine.” (11:42)
  • Letting go of ego: “Quite late...Being an actor, you’re kind of like, you have to keep your head in the ego game...I’m only just beginning to feel like I’m dropping my ego.” (11:52–12:03)
• Personal Growth:
  • Aspiring to be “a listener, more of a lover.” (12:17)
• Love Late in Life:
  • Meets Virginia (French), describes the “greatest kiss” he’s ever had at 63:
    • “The way she kissed me just knocked me for six.” (13:10)
    • “You might have to wait till 63 to get the best kiss of your life.” (13:48)

Modern Dating and Intimacy

• App Dating:
  • Met Virginia via Hinge, feeling sheepish about online dating (14:12).
  • Profile strategy: “Just put loads of photographs...No selfies...The dog is cute.” (14:38–15:23)
• Relationship Uncertainty:
  • Enjoyment mixed with uncertainty—Virginia has said she will visit but sometimes doesn’t: “There is a little bit of mystery with her.” (16:59)
  • “She likes a drink. Quite a lot of drinks.” (17:15)

Fame, Theatre, and Awards

• Recognition:
  • Sometimes recognized in public—“Quite aggressive...Did I see you in Crime Watch?” (18:01)
• Stage Work:
  • Played Timon in The Lion King, did pantomime and backstage work.
• Awards:
  • In shows nominated for awards: “Let me get my awards in…never held a trophy aloft and gone, ‘Thank you, Mum.’ That’s what it would have been...” (18:25–19:10)

Health and Facing Mortality

• Health Issues Disclosed:
  • Living with prostate cancer for a decade. Awaiting biopsy results the coming week, which could be life-changing (33:02–33:44).
  • B remains positive: “I think I’ll be all right.” (33:39)
• Reflections on Possible Mortality:
  • If given less time: “I’d get involved with more things. I’d see my friends more, I’d travel more…I’d be quite a lot more active, I think.” (34:03)
• Song Excerpt / Closing Thought (42:30):
  • B (singing): “Won some awards, raised some good kids and I’ve just had the world’s best kiss, and I would do it all again…” (41:20)

Loss, Regret, and Family

• Impact of Divorce:
  • Profound distress after separation from the mother of his children—“My world caved in.” (23:55)
  • Regrets showing “too much” grief to his kids during the split: “My daughter said, I wish you hadn’t shared so much with me…I did turn to you…sometimes I was so upset that I couldn’t not be upset.” (26:02)
  • Kids offered advice to protect his well-being (“Don’t pick up the phone to her anymore…She hurts you.” (27:25)
• Family Tragedy:
  • Lost one brother to suicide, another struggled with deep unhappiness.
  • Bond formed through a simple gesture—recollecting a wave goodbye: “I thought, damn, I should have listened to him.” (36:23)
  • On his brother’s suicide: “The biggest thing was that I wasn’t there for him…I wasn’t close enough to him for him to reach out.” (38:58)

Reflections, Nature, and Small Wonders

• Natural World:
  • Finds calm and solace watching sailing boats, paddle boarders, and cormorants (09:48).
• Surprising Moments:
  • Once spotted a humpback whale breaching offshore (30:51).
  • Love of cormorants: “I don’t know much about cormorants either. I just know I like them. It went over to one. Yeah, yeah, cormorants and Lewis Hamilton, man, those two. I don’t know anything about them, but I love them.” (30:59)
• Unexpected Bird/Human Connections:
  • Friendship, routine, and serendipity on the bench enhance B's sense of belonging.

Lewis Hamilton

• Fan of Lewis Hamilton over F1 as a whole:
  • “No, I’m not a fan of Formula One. I’m a fan of Lewis Hamilton.” (21:55)
  • On why: admires him for succeeding in a rich, white-dominated sport, and for activism—“He’s standing up for the people on the Gaza Strip...He seems to be a really good man.” (22:21–22:46)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On mother’s influence:

  • “She got it right, because I ended up becoming an actor. So she definitely…Good old Mum, mate.” (02:38–02:47)

• On discovering Youth Theatre:

  • “I really began to enjoy it more than anything else. I began to enjoy the people. It was the theatre people.” (04:59, B)

• On aging and ego:

  • “I like [my face] less and less as I get older…Old and wrinkly and old and grey whiskers…but yeah, fine...I don’t really give a damn.” (11:29–11:43, B)

• On love late in life:

  • “You might have to wait till 63 to get the best kiss of your life.” (13:52, A)
  • “I was totally in love with the mother of my children. She never kissed me like that.” (13:52, B)

• On heartbreak:

  • “It was just kind of heartbreaking, man.” (23:44, B)

• On showing too much pain:

  • “You could have protected me more, or something like that, she said. But in the same breath she said, it’s all right, though, Dad.” (27:05, B)

• On Lewis Hamilton:

  • “I got into Formula One because I liked him.” (22:57, B)

• On suicide and regret:

  • “The biggest thing was that I wasn’t there for him…I wasn’t close enough to him for him to reach out.” (38:58, B)

• On life’s simple wonders:

  • “Cormorants and Lewis Hamilton, man, those two. I don’t know anything about them, but I love them.” (30:59, B)

• Reflective rhyme in song (41:20–42:48):

  • “Won some awards, raised some good kids and I’ve just had the world’s best kiss, and I would do it all again...a thousand times or more.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Mother’s decisive intervention: 03:43–04:59
• Finding belonging in theatre: 05:03–06:10
• Coping during lean years: 06:43
• Family Sundays & religion: 07:06–07:40
• Opening up about age and ego: 11:29–12:03
• Greatest kiss / late-life romance: 13:08–13:52
• Divorce and regrets: 23:29–27:08
• Loss and family tragedy: 35:22–40:07
• Nature’s marvels (whale, cormorants): 30:05–31:30
• Admiration for Lewis Hamilton: 21:54–22:57
• Health and facing mortality: 33:00–34:15
• Song & closing reflections: 41:20–42:48

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Summary

This episode offers a rich, heartfelt portrait of a man still questioning, still loving, and still chasing meaning at 63. It’s part celebration of parental intervention, part meditation on the bruises and healing of adulthood—shot through with humor, humility, and an abiding love for the small marvels of life, like the cormorant and the glimmering hope of a really, really good kiss.

Transcript

[A]

Hello. Sorry to bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench, where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a go? Is there a day of the week that you favor?

[B]

Oh, I'd have to be. Yeah, I know. I was gonna say Friday or Saturday. Friday, because it's like Christmas Eve. I've grown to love Christmas Eve because Christmas Eve is the day before Christmas. So Friday is like that because it's the day before Saturday. So I think Friday is a favorite day, but also Sunday's become a favorite day from being as a child. My least favorite day by far because obvious reasons of school and Monopoly. School, next day, hated school.

[A]

Why did you hate school?

[B]

Well, I wasn't very good at it. I wasn't very good at learning. I wasn't very good at concentrating.

[A]

Doesn't sound like the place for you.

[B]

No.

[A]

Where should you have gone?

[B]

Well, I suppose school would have been fine if it was more kind of designed towards the arts, you know, and smaller classes and less strict and more books and more painting and more playing and more sports rather than all the shit that we had to learn. I learned more when I left school than I did before, because I left school, I could hardly read. I went away to drama school when I was. Well, first of all, I went to a youth theater. Right at the end of school, my mum forced me to join a local youth theater. I reckon that was when my education started. She forced you? Yes, she did.

[A]

Why did you need forcing? You weren't into it.

[B]

Yeah, I wasn't interested. But my mum ran a youth club, so she knew the geezer that ran the local youth theater. And I'd done a few plays at school just to get out of class. I quite liked it. Anyway, she saw something that I didn't see or kind of.

[A]

What was that?

[B]

I don't know. Maybe that I could do it. Maybe she had, you know, a plan, you know, because she got it right, because I ended up becoming an actor. So she definitely.

[A]

Good old Mum.

[B]

Good old Mum, mate. Absolutely.

[A]

Always trust Mother.

[B]

Yeah, I never really kind of got it how a stroke of genius that it was, because I really was going nowhere.

[A]

Did you thank her?

[B]

Yeah, and I also thanked her by her coming to see me in shows and seeing me on telly. And so she was probably the as proud of Mum as you can get. I was in the Lion King for a while and she used to come down. She lives in North Wales.

[A]

Stage show.

[B]

Yeah. So she used to come down quite a lot and see it. And I used to put her virtually in the same place at the front of the circle. So I knew. I always knew where she was and I'd always bow to her, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I could see how marvelous she thought this whole thing was. So it was pretty poetic. It was pretty nice, you know.

[A]

Do you remember what she said to you to persuade you to go the first place?

[B]

Well, it really was forcing it. I'd got tickets to a football match on the Saturday, and on the Friday there was a youth theater meeting. And she literally took the ticket then said, you're not going tomorrow. I've got the ticket. The deal is you go tonight, and then when you've been. Tomorrow morning, I'll give you the ticket. You got the football. I went, wow, you. You know, I mean, I wasn't. I wasn't. I wasn't too chuffed with that behavior. Anyway, she had me over a barrel, so off I went. I didn't particularly enjoy it. Then the next week, there was somebody that we knew that was in the sixth form I pretty much looked up to was in the youth theatre. And I didn't know this. His name was Dewey Hughes. Very funny and charming and handsome and talented. Anyway, the next. I said, I'm not going, Mum. He said, it's too late. Dewey's gonna pick you up. He's outside the door now. I'm not gonna send him away. He's in his car, he's picking you up and you're going. And I went, mum, you've done it again. Sure enough, I remember it was a white marina estate. I think it was his dad's. Off we went, and then I was given a part and I was kind of, like, embroiled. I'd be letting the side down. And I really began to enjoy it more than anything else. I began to enjoy the people. It was the theater people.

[A]

What was it about theatre people that you enjoyed?

[B]

A freedom, you know, Arty people I always kind of find more interesting than.

[A]

Who were you hanging around with before that?

[B]

I just mates at school. I mean, I had good friends and stuff, but it was suddenly. It was a bit different.

[A]

Your crowd. Suddenly you found your people.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. They were extraordinary. The girls were funny and gorgeous and charming and cool. The boys were funny, poised. There was just something about all this. There was something about the youth theater that I really liked. There was a geezer there who became my best friend. Like, no, Other friend that I'd had previous, and before I knew it, I was totally in love with the theatre. I ended up working, doing loads of things backstage.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Working on Welsh National Opera, Bally Rambert. Just brilliant. So I had this rife life of theatre, you know, where I worked during the day and then rehearsed during the night and did shows. And then I got a job with theatre Clwyd, playing the pantomime cat. And then I thought, well, I better go to drama school and learn how to do this properly. So I came to London, went to rada. So that was that, really. That was me mum.

[A]

Wow. Mum, eh?

[B]

Yeah. Good old Mum. Amazing, really, that she did that for me.

[A]

Has there been any moments in life and you've gone, I wish my mother didn't do, you know, any painful. You've been happy the whole way through.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Really.

[B]

Even when. Because there's been lean years, you know,

[A]

what do you do in a lean year?

[B]

Read, watch telly, see friends, go back home.

[A]

Where's home?

[B]

Well, home, as in where I was brought up is North Wales.

[A]

What was a kind of typical Sunday, like in your hometown growing up?

[B]

Oh, well, when I was tiny, it would be Sunday School, the name, which was awful.

[A]

Why?

[B]

I just couldn't see the point. I wasn't. I knew that religion wasn't going to get me.

[A]

I knew it was straight off.

[B]

Yeah. I knew it was.

[A]

Age.

[B]

What, Tiny, you know, like six or seven.

[A]

I was like, not for me.

[B]

Certainly wasn't for me. And I certainly didn't. Didn't believe. To me, it was the same as Father Christmas, the Easter Bunny, the. The Tooth Fairy.

[A]

Did you believe in Father Christmas longer than you believe?

[B]

No, no, not for very long, no. But, you know, in the morning, you know, it was pretty much dicking about with my brothers and my sister. Mum would cook a roast, which was always fabulous.

[A]

Another win by Mum there.

[B]

Another win by Mum. Yeah.

[A]

Mum was relentless. Relentless. Victory to Mother.

[B]

Mum was. Yeah. Mum was pretty special still. Where's dad? Dad.

[A]

Who's dad?

[B]

Dad was there. Dad was very present.

[A]

Not mentioned yet.

[B]

No. Bless. Sorry, dad. There was nothing wrong with that. That was all right. But he just wouldn't have said, look, you're going to the youth theater. He was there to back you up and stuff. He was a good man, you know, but he hadn't got the vision like Mum had, you know, for me.

[A]

Did she do this for. For your siblings as well? Is it just you?

[B]

Just me. I suppose my. My brothers were maybe doing a little bit better than Me.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Do you know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah. So you needed a bit of a base?

[B]

Oh, yeah. I. I worried. No, she was worried about me because I was, you know, getting into trouble, getting into fights. Bit of a tear away, I suppose. And then she had a light bulb moment, my mum did, and forced me to join the youth theatre, bless her,

[A]

because of this act that she did for you. Have you been keen to do similar acts for other people?

[B]

Oh, good question. No, no. And I think I could probably do. I probably could do more with my life to inspire and help others. I think I've turned my back a little bit on the theater. You know, I'm 63 now and I'm kind of. I do more in the way of voiceovers and tv, really. I haven't done theater since before COVID so I have. I have plenty of time on my hands and I. I have thought locally about joining a youth theater or something and just to help out, you know, to. Or to direct or just to be a. Because I think I could contribute. So I'm kind of. I think I'm ready to volunteer in something, actually. You can always help, can't you? Completely can always help.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

Right. And I'm quite lazy, so I come down here and open a book and chew the fat with folk and watch the boats and stuff when I kind of think, you know, do something a little bit more useful.

[A]

I mean, the boats are quite interesting.

[B]

Isn't it great? I could sit and watch for hours.

[A]

Could you describe what is in front of us?

[B]

There's about 1, 2. Well, I'll count them. 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 14 Small little sailing boats and a dinghy out there which looks after them. Oh, there's also two. Two paddle boarders. Three paddle boarders, but they go around four boys. There's a little track that they do and it's pretty calm, so they're going pretty slowly. But it's beautiful to watch. And it's clouded over, so there's a kind of like a metallicness to the sea. The sky looks pretty dramatic. Like at any minute now there could

[A]

be

[B]

quite heavy rain.

[A]

Good description. What does it all make you feel when you look at it?

[B]

Calm. Calm and. Hi. Are you in the middle of something? I am. Nice to see you. Pictures are there.

[A]

Until tomorrow.

[B]

Tomorrow I'll go and see them tomorrow. I will. Nice to see you. It's all right, mate. It's all right. Take care, mate. Lovely fella, Nurse he is. What's his name? Damn Greg.

[A]

Known Greg for A while.

[B]

Just along here. That's one of the. The beauties of this is that you get to know folk. He stopped like you did and said, can I take your picture? He's a nurse, but his number one hobby is taking pictures of local people and he's really good at it. And then we've been, we've been pal since.

[A]

How do you feel about having your picture taken?

[B]

I like it.

[A]

What do you think about your face?

[B]

I like it less and less as I get older. People say, ah, you know, you look good. And I go, ah, yeah, but old wrinkly and old and grey whiskers as opposed to black whiskers. But yeah, fine.

[A]

Really.

[B]

Hell, I've not got that much of an ego anymore. Really, I don't think. I don't really give a damn.

[A]

When did it go?

[B]

Quite late. Later than I have liked.

[A]

Really.

[B]

Being an actor, you're kind of like,

[A]

you have to keep your head in the ego game.

[B]

Yeah. You don't have to.

[A]

But you did.

[B]

I did, I did, yeah. I'm only just beginning.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

To beginning to feel like I'm. I'm dropping my ego, you know, my competitiveness and my.

[A]

What is emerging in the space?

[B]

Don't know. Hopefully a calmer, more of a listener, more of a

[A]

love her.

[B]

That'd be nice. That'd be really nice. I met. I met a French girl a couple of months ago.

[A]

That's exciting.

[B]

Name was Virginia and she's. She's really lovely and she's hopefully coming over this week, but she's. She's done this before. Said, I'm coming over, I'm coming over, can you meet me or. And I was like, yeah, great. And she never came.

[A]

And she's coming again, but she might not.

[B]

Is she? Is she?

[A]

So the big week next week.

[B]

It is a big week. Will you be.

[A]

Wait. How will you be waiting? Will you be prepared?

[B]

I'm trying to be cool about it because I really quite. I'm really, I'm really quite fan. I'm really quite smitten by her.

[A]

And what is it about her that you.

[B]

She's an amazing kisser. The way she kissed me just knocked me for six.

[A]

Tell me about it.

[B]

I don't know what it was about. I felt like I'd never been kissed like that before. It was incredibly tender and I just felt love exuding from her. There was something really special about her kiss. I said, wow. And she said, what?

[A]

That's what I do every time.

[B]

And I went, that kiss was amazing. And she Says, really, it takes two. You know, my kiss is only as good as yours. And I went, if my kiss is as good as that, I'm a happy man.

[A]

That's lovely.

[B]

I was like, just, you think?

[A]

Honestly, like, greatest kiss your life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's nice to hear that. You know, you might have to wait till 63 to get the best kiss of your life.

[B]

Yeah. There you go. It was that good. I mean, I was totally in love with the mother of my children. She never kissed me like that.

[A]

How did you eat in the first place?

[B]

Hinge data. Now I'm slightly embarrassed to say. I know I shouldn't.

[A]

Why? Why are you embarrassed?

[B]

So that I don't know. I can't explain that. There's something about it that doesn't sit well. But I've met so many nice girls.

[A]

Well, I don't think it's. It's just a vehicle to feel seen. And then once you meet it, you'll, you know, feel like it does a date for you.

[B]

Yeah, I'll buy that.

[A]

What's your. What's on your profile? What did you say about yourself?

[B]

I'm quite. I'm quite coy, really. I don't. I don't give away too much. I just. Just put loads of photographs if you. If you. If you like. If you. Well, as many as. I think there's six that you're allowed.

[A]

Okay. What are your photos of?

[B]

No selfies.

[A]

Are there any other people in the photos?

[B]

No, just me.

[A]

You should put one photo. Maybe me and you do one photo now and then we'll put it on.

[B]

I won't do it. I won't put it on.

[A]

Are they quite kind of posy photos? Are they quite relaxed me? Yeah.

[B]

There's one that I like most is I'm at a wedding in France. It's in profile, and I'm talking to somebody in front of me. There's another one with a dog. With my friend who I dog sit quite often. Get the dog. Absolutely. Yeah.

[A]

Especially if we dog cute.

[B]

Yeah. And the dog is cute. There's another one of me. No, there is. There is one with somebody else. It's me and a mate, Delroy. We're on tour and we're in a dressing room and we're dancing to. To a. I think it's a. It's a Whitney Houston tune whilst we're brushing our teeth.

[A]

Oh, fun. That's.

[B]

That's.

[A]

That's a fun shot. We have got one friend shot.

[B]

Yeah. But. Yeah, that's hinge.

[A]

So it Works.

[B]

And so Virginia, I never would have met Virginie. Yeah.

[A]

So if she comes. Yeah, the great kisser.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Next week.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How we, you know, how are you trying to move it forward? I mean, were you. Is it. Are you just trying to get your kisses in while you can?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

You're not trying to go. Look, that's, you know, can you come every, every month or whatever?

[B]

Oh, yeah, I might. Yeah. You're just trying to see how it goes. I mean, I've only spent. We met at about 8 o' clock on our Saturday night and the following morning I think she was on a plane back to Lyon. We haven't seen each other since, so we spent the night together and then she'd gone just after lunch on the following Sunday. We've spoken a lot on the phone since, so.

[A]

Oh, you spoke a lot on the phone, that's nice.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, I was imagining she was of a mysterious course.

[B]

No.

[A]

So you know plenty about her.

[B]

I should, I should call her tonight and, and find out whether she definitely is kind of.

[A]

That's interesting. Hang on. So she. Yeah, so she's talking a lot, but then she's not turning up. I don't understand that.

[B]

Yeah, I think neither do I. So there is, you're right about the mystery. There is a little bit of mystery with her.

[A]

What do you know?

[B]

She's a teacher. She works. She's a one to one teacher and she, she likes a drink.

[A]

She likes a drink.

[B]

Quite a lot of drinks.

[A]

Okay, how many drinks?

[B]

She's a big drinker. Really Tramped me under the table.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Yeah, man. And when, whenever I was kind of like, like, should we go now? She'd be like, no, let's go and have, let's have this, let's go in here. And I go, oh, really? Okay, let's go in here. It was great fun. We had a great time. It was like. Yeah.

[A]

Is it. So you did your lovemaking after. This can't be quite complicated.

[B]

No, no, it was fine. Luckily. Yeah, go. It's gone personal, hasn't it?

[A]

Well, it's all anonymous, you know. Yeah.

[B]

But then people will go, I know that voice, you know, that is Bob and Bob. You famous Bob and Bob. Yeah, that's Bob.

[A]

You consider yourself famous.

[B]

Bob's talking to Bob. No, no, I think, I think that.

[A]

Have you ever been recognized in the street?

[B]

Oh yeah. It's usually after you've been in something, you'll get somebody that'll just look at you, stare at you and Then point at you like that. Quite aggressive. It's quite aggressive. And then somebody might come and say, are you. Did you. Did I see you in Crime Watch or whatever it was?

[A]

Star of Crime Watch.

[B]

I've seen you loads in Crime Watch.

[A]

You ever been up for an award?

[B]

Oh, yeah, I have been up for an award. Been up for a few. I've been up for. I did the Lion King.

[A]

Were you the Lion?

[B]

No, I was Timon. Also, I did another play in the West End and that won the Evening Standard Award for Best comedy. Okay, let me get my awards in.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, sorry. Never, never cut off on a man detailing his.

[B]

In the middle of it, he's telling, you have to remember, I didn't win any of these. Oh, no, I did the. The comedy award. That one.

[A]

It was a group one. You didn't get your own little statue.

[B]

No, I've never held a trophy aloft and gone, thank you, Mum. That's what it would have been, wouldn't it?

[A]

You would have said that, wouldn't you?

[B]

Oh, yeah, I would have told him.

[A]

That would have been part of the story.

[B]

That would have been my. That would have been my acceptance speech, wouldn't it?

[A]

Anyone else you were thanked apart from Mum or just total focus on Mother?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it would all be about Mum. Yeah.

[A]

Not your dad. Your dad got his. You know, he made love to your mother. Made you.

[B]

I could say that.

[A]

I mean, you know, without that, you're not here.

[B]

Yeah. So I would thank my dad. Yeah, right. I would thank my dad for having it off with me. Mum,

[A]

Do you know about your conception at all? Do we know about how that happened?

[B]

No, No, I don't know anything. I was. I've been having cranio.

[A]

What's that?

[B]

It's when these very clever people hold your head and try and cure you of certain. Certain ailments.

[A]

Clever people hold your head?

[B]

Yeah, like, you know, cranio, the crate.

[A]

Like you just.

[B]

Have you never heard of cranio? No, it's a kind of. It's a healing thing. Anyways, I got talking to this. This girl down here. Yeah. Because I suffer from vertigo.

[A]

And vertigo is the one where you just feel a bit dizzy and imbalanced and stuff.

[B]

Yeah, it's. It can be really quite awful. It can make you feel quite nauseous or very nauseous sometimes and dizzy and disorientated when you get it bad. And she said, would you be a case study? So I was like, oh, wow, that's serious. That's free. Cranio.

[A]

Yeah. So you put your head in her hands?

[B]

Oh, yeah, I put my head in her hands. And also she starts with the feet.

[A]

What's it like for you?

[B]

It's very soothing. It's quite beautiful, actually. It's quite a beautiful thing. I remember a long time ago, my son was struggling when he was a toddler. His immune system was down and things weren't working out for my boy. He was an unhappy baby and somebody suggested cranio. We went to this charity cranial thing. This room was extraordinary. There was people who were really. There were children who were really, really struggling in there with all sorts of bodies that were kind of stiff. When these extraordinary people put their hands on these children's heads, they. They suddenly calmed, you know, and all the tension went out of their body and it really was quite. It was quite. It was. It was like. It was like a miracle and it helped my boy. I've never forgotten it.

[A]

When does this vertigo kind of come on scrolling?

[B]

If you scroll too much with your phone.

[A]

Classic.

[B]

If you look too fast, left. Right. You know, if I. I'm very careful

[A]

now not to go to the tennis.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, that would be. That would be.

[A]

Would be hell.

[B]

That would be crap. Especially.

[A]

Yeah, especially if they're playing quickly.

[B]

That would be rubbish. You're absolutely right.

[A]

Or if you watch, I don't know, Formula One or something.

[B]

Yeah, Formula one. No, on the telly. Do you know when you get certain angles? Because I watch Formula One. I'm a big. I'm a big fan.

[A]

Oh, you're a fan?

[B]

No, I'm not a fan of Formula One. I'm a fan of Lewis Hamilton.

[A]

Oh, that's interesting. Just Lewis Hamilton?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why are you such a fan of Lewis Hamilton?

[B]

I think he's an extraordinary man.

[A]

Really? Tell me. I mean, sorry, that sounded like I was not in agreement. I just don't know enough about Les Hamilton to have an opinion. Can you tell me why? He's brilliant.

[B]

I don't really know that much about him anyway, but here he said he's an extraordinary man. Yeah. That doesn't make sense, does it? Doesn't make sense.

[A]

Make it make sense. Let's try and make it make sense.

[B]

Yeah. The fact that what I think is probably a very rich and white orientated sport and he became the most successful ever. He's standing up for the. The people on the Gaza Strip. I like the fact that he's done that. I love his style. Yeah.

[A]

These are all very reasonable reasons.

[B]

He seems to be. He seems to me to be A very, really good man.

[A]

Nothing about his actual. His actual racing there, just to him as a man.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Really.

[A]

So you don't mind? Not about his moves or his overtakes or anything.

[B]

I think he's. No, because I got into Formula one because I liked him.

[A]

Really? How interesting. I just never would.

[B]

He's a very.

[A]

I never would have guessed that. This is the beauty about talking to people.

[B]

I'm a big fan. Yeah. As you can. As you've heard.

[A]

Earlier, you said you were in love with the mother of your children.

[B]

Oh, yeah, I did that. Then. We've been separated for 20, 23, 24 years. Yeah.

[A]

What was that separation like?

[B]

Oh, dreadful. God, God, God, yeah.

[A]

Why was it so dreadful?

[B]

First of all, being separated from her, my children and my home.

[A]

Whose idea was it?

[B]

Hers. She wanted to be with somebody else. Didn't want to be with me anymore. Who can blame her? But it was just kind of heartbreaking, man. Yeah.

[A]

Difficult. How does she tell you out of injuries, not to ask you too many painful questions, but how is it? How has it broken to you? Do you remember what you were doing, where you were?

[B]

It was a Saturday morning. Dad got two shows that day. We were in bed and I said something about our relationship has become so cold. And I think that she'd been wanting to say to me that it's time that we called it a day. And then she jumped on that and she said, I want to split up. And then my. My world caved in.

[A]

You didn't want to? No.

[B]

Tried to persuade her otherwise, and then she was determined. She was already. She was already seeing somebody.

[A]

When did you find out about that?

[B]

Oh, much later. And I left and I went to st. With a friend about two miles down the road, thinking that the sooner I left, the sooner she'd miss me and want me back, but she never did. Yeah, but she's with a really good man now, and my children have grown up and they've got a pretty good relationship with her. They've got a good relationship with me. So I'd say that things are. I'm pretty good.

[A]

What was doing those two shows, like, on Saturday.

[B]

Oh, fuck. Dreadful. But having said, that was the only time that really I was able to rest. The rest of the time, it was just. It was all consuming. But when I was on stage, that was all consuming.

[A]

And then when I was a savior.

[B]

Yeah, it was.

[A]

If we go back to that Saturday morning.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I tell you, in retrospect, knowing what you know now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You can do one thing Differently from that moment onwards, what would you do

[B]

differently during the separation?

[A]

During the entire separation, from that moment

[B]

onwards, I would probably. Show less of my grief to my children. My daughter, just this May, was a birthday party. Lots of her friends were there and her mum was there, and I was there, and her mum's boy boyfriend was there, who is now her husband. And my daughter said, I wish you. You hadn't shared so much with me. And I went, oh, oh, I'm sorry about that. I didn't think that I had, but obviously she said so. And I kind of. The only excuse I had, alibi I had, was that I did turn to you. I think because you were there and because sometimes I was so upset that I couldn't. I couldn't. Not being upset is spontaneous. It's not something that you've got control of. So maybe she saw things that she wished she hadn't seen. You know, I remember her words, you said, you could have protected me more, or something like that, she said. But in the same breath she said, it's all right, though, dad.

[A]

She understood.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How old were they when they were like.

[B]

They were like three and four.

[A]

All right. Tiny.

[B]

Yeah, Tiny.

[A]

So, hang on, so she. What age is she talking about being that age?

[B]

Well, the next.

[A]

However long.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, you know, you're picking up children, organizing things. I mean, it never ends. There was a time when both of them individually said to me, when they were young adults, they said, don't pick up the phone to her anymore. She. She hurts. You say to her, from here on in, it's text or email.

[A]

Why do they say that to you?

[B]

Because they saw me. They saw the distress that she used to bring to me.

[A]

And is that because you're still in love with her?

[B]

Well, she kind of.

[A]

She.

[B]

She would continually tell me that I'd get things wrong, you know, that I was a bad father, that you should have done this, you should have done that. Why didn't you do that? Your son didn't. You didn't do this, you didn't do. And why the hell didn't you do I need more money? Why didn't you? It was always. I was always in trouble. Yeah, always in trouble with that. And obviously the children heard bits of it, damn it. So they were witness to it, you know, and they said, don't pick up the phone anymore. You could take away people's sanity by continually telling them that they're not good enough. That's what she did.

[A]

Sounds like it's really taken a kind of at least the way you talk about it, it sounds like it's really taken a chunk out of you.

[B]

Yeah, it did.

[A]

That fair?

[B]

It did, yeah. I still loved her and I loved our house. I loved the family. The whole thing was. I felt very alone very quickly.

[A]

It's easy to forget that, you know, when people think of a divorce or whatever it is a breakup, they think, you know, just about the couple splitting up or whatever, they forget all the stuff like the house and the kind of principles of a life set up, you know, with others, that then it's

[B]

just gone, taken away.

[A]

All the routines and the little things, all gone. That's a lot.

[B]

It's a new life very quickly, a new life and a life that you don't want.

[A]

Yeah,

[B]

I think. I think I've seen you down here.

[A]

I have been down here once before, so you might have seen me walk about.

[B]

You. You interviewed a girl?

[A]

Yes, correct. And it was just over there.

[B]

It was just over there. Yeah, I remember that.

[A]

She's episode 40.

[B]

Wow. Well done.

[A]

She was great. And there was a seal that day popping up.

[B]

Yeah, that happens. Did you ever hear the story of the. It's not a story, it's a fact.

[A]

Well, it still could be a story.

[B]

Humpback whale.

[A]

Well, there's one here.

[B]

Yeah, I've got a friend, just. I wasn't a friend at the time. I knew Justin. I was deep, deep into a book. And Justin came along and poked his head by the book and went, sorry to disturb, but I thought you'd probably like to know there's a whale. And I went, fuck off. And I looked out and sure enough, about halfway between here and the horizon, a humpback whale breached. And I went, fucking quite loudly. Yeah. And this, this. It must have breached about, I don't know, 12, 15 times between there and there.

[A]

Amazing. How long was it hovering about for?

[B]

I reckon a good half an hour.

[A]

What a sight. See, if you stay here long enough, you see everything.

[B]

Yeah, well, I've seen also my favorite bird. I love cormorants. Now it's sitting down further up where it's less busy earlier on today and there was a cormorant fishing in front of me for ages. I don't know much about cormorants either. I just know I like them. It went over to one. Yeah, yeah, cormorants and Lewis Hamilton, man, those two. I don't know anything about them, but I love them.

[A]

What's to come in your life then? What have we got to sort out?

[B]

What's to come. I've just done a demo for a game. It's an alternate reality where Napoleon Bonaparte, he won the battle of Waterloo and he's now taken over the rest of the world. I think this is what the game is. I'm not a gamer game.

[A]

Oh, it's a video game.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, hang on. So you're playing the voice of someone.

[B]

I've been doing the voice of art. Do you want to hear a little bit of Napoleon? I can play your recording, which is quite interesting.

[A]

This is you as Napoleon.

[B]

Yeah. Let's see if I can get it.

[A]

Great

[B]

soldiers. That's what the government owes you a great deal.

[A]

Wow about you.

[B]

Your patience aren't courage do you honor, but give you neither worldly goods nor glory. No glory. I shall lead you onto the most fertile plains on Earth. Peoples of Europe, the French army can't stop wreck your chains. You've had enough, haven't you?

[A]

I mean, it could go forever. I particularly like. I particularly like the way you said. Lori, Lori, Lori. I was going to ask. What were you going to say? Yeah. When I said, what's going to happen in the rest of your life? You answered with the Napoleon role. But if we're not talking about work, this ego of yours is just dying and all that kind of. What's. What's gonna happen in the rest of your life?

[B]

I don't know. I mean, I've got health issues, so.

[A]

Are you dying?

[B]

I could be dying. I had a biopsy on my prostate the other day to find out whether the cancer that I've got there is growing. On Tuesday, I'm getting a test result from a biopsy that might something to do with the rest of my life. I've had this condition for 10 years, but it's been.

[A]

What's the condition?

[B]

Prostate cancer.

[A]

Oh, okay. You've just been living with it.

[B]

Yeah. And it's been so little that it's been fine, so.

[A]

You worried?

[B]

Yeah. Well, I'm not. I'm not losing sleep.

[A]

Oh, that's good.

[B]

So I can't be that worried? I think I'm quite positive about it. Yeah. I think it'll be all right.

[A]

Great. I mean, is there an argument for saying even if they say to you everything's as is, you should be doing the things that you should be doing? If they say you had a year to live. Do you see what I mean?

[B]

Yeah, good point.

[A]

And what are those things? What would be your kind of first thoughts?

[B]

Oh, I'd get involved with more things. I'd see my Friends more, I'd travel more, I'd stalk my kids more, I'd be more demanding about seeing them. I'd be. I'd be quite a lot more active, I think.

[A]

So potentially big moment on Tuesday, but who knows? Could also be.

[B]

Yeah, it could be. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

But it's good to have these moments to consider what we're doing in our lives.

[B]

No, sometime. Yeah. Here. Here.

[A]

What haven't I asked you?

[B]

I don't know. We've done.

[A]

We've covered quite a lot of ground.

[B]

We've done quite a lot, haven't we? Actually, we've done a lot about my family, we've done a lot about my career, we've done a lot about the best kisser on the planet.

[A]

All your awards.

[B]

My awards. We could, we could talk about what were my awards.

[A]

Let's just go back in more detail.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If I ask you, you know how sometimes one remembers things from, I don't know, a long time ago, whenever, and it's a memory. You don't know why you remember, but you do. Can you think of what. Something that springs to mind.

[B]

I used to do a milk. And it's kind of neither here nor there, but it stayed with me, it haunted me for quite a while and it made me closer to my brother. I've lost a brother through suicide. It's not that, but it's. It's. There was a time when another brother, he was unhappy and I didn't know how unhappy he was. And we weren't a family that really talked about our feelings so much. If we had. Maybe my brother didn't do what he did to himself, but my other brother, he was in the Merchant navy, going all over the world and I just thought it was a brilliant life he was leading and I didn't. He kind of touched on the fact that he didn't like it to me and I kind of was dismissive of it and was like, nah, it's brilliant. You do this, you do that, it's great. And then he just would go quiet. And then I remember I was walking down this road, road to the farm to start the Mil crown. 5:30 in the morning. And my dad was taking my brother to Liverpool to get the boat to go wherever it was going to go. And it was kind of dawning on me, this was bad for my brother. And I remember my dad was driving a, at the time, rather groovy little sky blue Triumph Dolomite. I loved this car. And he was in this car and he was driving along and My brother just turned and put his hand flat like that to say goodbye. And I could tell. That he was distraught just through that wave. And I thought, damn, I should have listened to him. It was just inconsequential, this wave. This wave that he just did. I don't know why that came into my mind.

[A]

Yeah, well, it's just a small movement, isn't it? But you knew it so well.

[B]

Yeah. And it makes me emotional thinking about it, so it must have been quite massive, actually. And it bonded me and him somehow because I've never forgotten it. And I think our relationship grew, even, you know, grew from there, really. We're pretty close now, me and my brother.

[A]

I feel like I should ask about your brother that died by suicide.

[B]

Right. He had a traumatic time and he ran away to the Netherlands to work. When he went, it was a time when. Then I. I was going to drama school. It was kind of big time for me as well as a big time for him. We kind of. We went our separate ways. I didn't make an effort to see him. He didn't make an effort to see me. And. And that was that, really. And he couldn't take it anymore. Whatever he was going through, he couldn't take it anymore, and he. So he did away with himself.

[A]

What impact did I have in your life after that?

[B]

The biggest thing was that I wasn't there for him. So I will always carry that. I wasn't close enough to him for him to reach out. And then I kind of look back and I kind of wish that I'd. I'm not saying that I could have prevented him doing what he did, but it would have been reaching out is kind of being there for somebody. Right. So that impacted me greatly was the fact that I wasn't there for my brother. And that immediately when I was told that's what. That's what I just. That was the weight that hit me straight away.

[A]

Well, I think, you know, we've covered a lot of ground. You ready for the last question?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Either answer this in a now kind of way or a grander kind of way. However you want to do it, you can do it. What are you going to do next?

[B]

It's going to be more of the same, really. There's not really anything dramatic. Unless maybe on Tuesday, if I find out something really bad, then, you know, my life might change dramatically. That could be something quite big that could happen. That's a huge cat. Did you see that cat? Look at the size of that cat. Is it just me or Is that a huge cat?

[A]

I'm glad you. I'm glad you noticed it because as you were talking I thought, that's a huge cat. But I thought, I can't interrupt, you know, your big last closing statements with huge cat. So you did it for me. So fantastic. And also, you don't see a cat at a beach.

[B]

No. Yeah. Weird.

[A]

Well, thank you so much for talking to me.

[B]

Good, mate.

[A]

You've been really good.

[B]

I really enjoyed it. It's good fun. Thank you very much. I enjoyed it.

[A]

There we go. Done.

[B]

Goodbye.

[C]

I'm not sure if I want next week to come around. I could well be dying I think that I'll be alright but if I do give up the ghost well, I had a good run around Won some awards Raise some good kids and I've just had the world's best kiss and I do it all again I'm not sure if I want next week to come around. My time may be up But I'm hoping I'll be alright but if I do turn up my toes I hope everyone knows that I wanna won some awards Raise some good gifts and I've just had the world's best kiss and I would do it all again I would do it all again I would do it all again oh, a thousand times or more.

[B]

O.