EPISODE 86: Talking To Gina

Summary

Strangers on a Bench – EPISODE 86: Talking to Gina

Host: Tom Rosenthal
Date: May 4, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this moving and introspective episode of Strangers on a Bench, Tom Rosenthal sits down with a bereaved husband on a memorial bench inscribed with "Gina and Sue." The episode explores themes of love, grief, identity, and the purpose found (or not found) after the death of a lifelong partner. The conversation is marked by moments of deep vulnerability, practical wisdom, and even gentle humor, as Tom and his guest navigate memories, coping mechanisms, mundane daily routines, and the power of magical thinking. This episode provides a rare, intimate portrait of bereavement and the enduring bond between partners.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Meaning Behind the Bench and Gina’s Legacy

• [01:04-03:50]
  The guest (bereaved husband) explains that the bench was chosen and dedicated in honor of his late wife, Gina, who died of cancer after a long struggle with illness and disability.
  • Gina’s ashes are buried around the back of the bench, a place loaded with personal memories—a site where they would sit together, watching life in the park unfold.
  • He often sits there, speaking aloud to Gina, sometimes using his phone so as not to appear "mad" to passersby.
  • Quote: "I just wanted to let Gina know that I wasn't going to be around for a bit. No, it's magical. I know it's magical thinking, but I do feel her presence here." (Bereaved Husband, 02:50)

2. Navigating Grief and the Transformation of Identity

• [04:23-07:46]
  • The year since Gina’s passing has been “such a journey,” layered with intensity and profound change.
  • Having cared for her full-time, he initially felt a paradoxical sense of both freedom and loss of identity.
  • Quote: "So much of my identity was caught up in being a carer... now it's more like living with a hidden disability. Like on the outside, I look fine... but I need a lot of solitude, I need to talk to her." (06:14)
• He discusses the ongoing need to process emotions and his evolving relationship with grief.

3. Continuing the Conversation with the Departed

• [07:47-09:19]
  • He frequently talks to Gina, sometimes for updates, sometimes for advice, and senses her reassurance in return, though less as a voice and more a feeling.
  • The conversation is interrupted by playful commentary on squirrels, showing life’s capacity for small, grounding distractions.
  • Quote: "Even though I talk to her as a person... my sense is now that her essence is sort of in the ether... a gentle sense of reassurance, like it's okay." (08:06)

4. Marking Anniversaries and Finding Comfort in Ritual

• [09:46-13:14]
  • The first year, he made a point to acknowledge every milestone—avoiding family Christmas, instead walking the city solo with a backpack picnic, and commemorating birthdays and other personal dates with acts meaningful to both.
  • Quote: "If you don't pay attention to [anniversaries], they'll come around and smack you in the face." (09:54)
  • Describes Gina’s funeral and his determination to deliver the eulogy, complete with European-themed touches reflecting her politics.

5. Sharing End-of-Life Narratives

• [13:48-15:27]
  • The guest shares how Gina had a premonition before her sudden passing, and how he comforted her with a story: “When you die, just look for the light... And all these people would be there... there’d be fish and chips, and roast dinners, and Manu would be winning all the football.”
  • Quote: "It's a very special thing... to lie there next to her and see her out." (16:04)

6. Life After Loss and Embracing ‘Being’ Over ‘Doing’

• [17:05-18:55]
  • The guest now values days of solitude and zero commitments if he’s been busy; or meaningful connection if he’s lonely.
  • He speculates about the future but recognizes his days ahead are fewer, expressing a desire for calm and rejecting the idea of active “purpose.”

7. Family, Cats, and Small Joys

• [21:14-22:21, 22:41-24:11]
  • Talks about his elderly cats, Tabitha and Marmaduke, and how he dreamt of a ginger cat that influenced adopting one.
  • Recounts the story of meeting Gina—how she called down to him after their first meeting, and their early days included both affection and challenges, like splitting the bill at Pizza Hut despite his unemployment.

8. The Realities of Long Partnership

• [24:23-26:13]
  • Describes Gina’s emotional complexity and political activism, and how their differences played out across decades.
  • Quote: "It was never an easy relationship. In a way, it got a lot easier to love her when she got sick, which I know sounds like a strange thing to say." (24:11)
  • They balanced each other—her anxiety with his calm.

9. Therapy, Work, and Letting Go

• [28:23-31:08]
  • He draws on his career as an eclectic psychotherapist, emphasizing the value of listening and creating space for others’ self-discovery rather than imposing solutions.
  • Quote: "If you let someone talk long enough, they'll find the answer for themselves." (30:11)
  • Speaks honestly about the ambiguity of ‘results’ in therapy, especially when retiring—“You never know the end of the story.”

10. Generational Memories and Catholic Childhood

• [32:46-33:53]
  • Shares memories of growing up in the 1950s, attending a Catholic school, collecting holy cards, and leaving a chair for his ‘guardian angel.’
  • Quote: "It was real. It was for real." (33:07)

11. Professional Advice for Tom

• [34:47-36:02]
  • Offers host Tom advice about sensitive interviewing: observe and occasionally comment neutrally on a guest’s non-verbal reactions, as “most people like to be seen—even if it’s a bit painful.”
  • Quote: "Sometimes it might be helpful to comment: oh, it looked like that question made you uncomfortable. You don’t have to answer if you don’t want to." (35:19)
  • “Most people like to be seen.” (35:57)

12. Coping Mechanisms and Looking Forward

• [36:43-38:41]
  • Relies on routine, detective fiction, and family trips to cope with grief; nothing unexpected has emerged—but he acknowledges the value of taking time away to “take stock.”
  • Shares a whimsical story about taste-testing croissants in New York.

13. On the Unknown Next Chapter

• [39:04-43:43]
  • Expresses openness to whatever emerges in the next phase, reiterating comfort with uncertainty and change.
  • Host Tom reflects on the energy and presence of his guest, noting the “life force” that persists, regardless of age.

14. The Bench as a Social Space

• [40:55-41:48]
  • The guest frequently asks people using the bench to move so he can “talk” to Gina, leading to new conversations. He intends that his nephew add his death date to the bench when he passes.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On magical thinking in grief:

  "I know it's magical thinking, but I do feel her presence here."
  (Bereaved Husband, 02:50)

• On the intensity of love and loss:

  "Paradoxically, I felt very alive... alongside that, a sense of ‘who am I now?’"
  (05:14)

• On marking anniversaries:

  "If you don't pay attention to them, they'll come around and smack you in the face."
  (09:54)

• On partnership:

  "It was never an easy relationship. In a way, it got a lot easier to love her when she got sick..."
  (24:11)

• On the nature of therapy:

  "If you let someone talk long enough, they'll find the answer for themselves."
  (30:11)

• Interviewing advice:

  "I think most people like to be seen."
  (35:57)

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Timestamps For Key Segments

• [01:04] – The story of the bench and why Gina wanted it
• [04:23] – Processing a year of grief
• [07:47] – Speaking to the dead, magical thinking
• [09:46] – Marking anniversaries, rituals of remembrance
• [13:48] – The final narrative, premonition, and Gina’s death
• [17:05] – The present: solitude, routines, good days
• [24:11] – The complexity and devotion in lifelong partnership
• [28:23] – Therapy, advice for individuals and couples
• [32:46] – Childhood memories and their influence
• [34:47] – Professional interviewing advice
• [36:43] – Coping: detective fiction, family, daily routines
• [40:55] – The bench as a community and personal memorial
• [42:41] – Looking ahead, embracing the unknown

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Memorable Closing

• The conversation ends with warm goodbyes, a shared acknowledgment of the bench’s role in the guest’s grief journey, and playful talk of future scooter (not skateboard) adventures.
• The episode fades into a poetic reflection, encapsulating the episode’s themes: magical thinking, love as enduring conversation, and the ongoing task of finding life amidst loss.

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This episode offers a heartfelt exploration of loss, memory, and the slow journey toward meaning after bereavement. With remarkable candor and calm insight, Tom’s guest invites listeners into the most private contours of grief—and the magical thinking and love that persist beyond death.

Transcript

[Interviewer]

Hello. Sorry to bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench, where essentially, I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a. So, traditionally, I obviously, I get people to stay anonymous, so I. I don't say their name, and I find if I need to remind myself. Your name. I'm touching your name.

[Bereaved Husband]

You are.

[Interviewer]

It's a funny thought, isn't it?

[Bereaved Husband]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

There you are.

[Bereaved Husband]

Are we recording?

[Interviewer]

Yeah, we're recording now.

[Bereaved Husband]

Okay, we're on. This is the reason why I'm here.

[Interviewer]

Right. Okay. So on one side of the bench, your side you're sitting on, it says Gina. And then on this side of the bench that I'm sitting on, it says and Sue.

[Bereaved Husband]

Yep.

[Interviewer]

So, I mean, do you want to tell me about all this? Who's Gina?

[Bereaved Husband]

She was my wife. She died last year, as you can see, And she wanted a bench here. We chose this spot. Well, I chose this spot because. In the last couple of years of her life, she was quite disabled. Well, she'd been living with stage four cancer really well, for about five years. Then she had a stroke. She was quite disabled, in a wheelchair after the stroke. Yeah. And we used to come here, get a coffee or an ice cream from the cafe there, and we'd come and sit along here and watch the kids playing football or the dog walkers or whatever was going on. So it seemed like a perfect place to have her bench. So. Actually, some of her ashes are buried around the back here. I have permission. And so she's actually bits of her here, too. And I come and sit here, not every day, but quite often, and just talk to her. Sometimes I get my phone up so people don't think I'm mad if I'm talking to somebody on my phone. And. I came now because tomorrow I'm flying to America to see my sister and niece who live in Brooklyn. And I just wanted to let Gina know that I wasn't going to be around for a bit. No, it's magical. I know it's magical thinking, but I do feel her presence here. And the other day there was a shooting in the park, and it was actually just up the path there, and I was so worried that she'd be scared.

[Interviewer]

Magical thinking is the best kind of thinking, I think.

[Bereaved Husband]

Yeah, Life would be very dull without it, for sure.

[Interviewer]

So it's been a year. What has this year been to you?

[Bereaved Husband]

Grief is a really interesting process. I Thought I knew about grief because I've worked a lot with people who were bereaved. I've read quite a lot about it. My own parents died. But really this I did not know until Gina left. And it's such a journey, such a journey. It was very intense. There were times when I felt a bit mad, but in a good way. Very. I mean, very, like passionately intense to begin with. It really was.

[Interviewer]

Can you just describe that a bit?

[Bereaved Husband]

Well, paradoxically, I felt very alive. And that might have been because I was a carer for two years. I mean, I was a carer for a lot longer than that because she needed quite a lot of emotional and psychological support. And I retired early to look after her. But in the last couple of years of her life, I was a full time carer. So that part of it was a sense of freedom. You know, I could do things that I hadn't been able to do for a long time, like travel, go to the cinema in the middle of the afternoon, go out to dinner with friends at a whim. So there was that kind of freedom, But alongside that a sense of scarce sometimes like, who am I now? You know, because so much of my identity was caught up in being a carer and looking after her.

[Interviewer]

Prior to being in the caring role,

[Bereaved Husband]

I was a carer, I was a psychotherapist, I was a craniosyncratic therapist. So it's sort of my whole life.

[Interviewer]

And was your identity also wrapped around because she was your wife?

[Bereaved Husband]

Yes, absolutely. And anybody who's been through this journey will say the same thing. It's like you always carry them inside you and you carry the grief inside you and sometimes it's overwhelming, you know, like talking to you now, stranger. But in the early days, I'd be walking down the street with tears streaming down my face, but the internal grief changes. But I remember an image I had in the early days was like I had this big balloon full of water, full of tears inside. Now it's more like, what's it like now? I suppose it's like, it is a bit like living with a hidden disability. Like on the outside, I look fine. Put me in a social situation, I'm fine, I can manage. I can let small talk all those things. And on one level, it's true, I am enjoying myself and I am that person. But I'm also a person who needs a lot of solitude and I need to be able to talk to her and I need to be able to process what I'm feeling. Because if I don't it sort of catches up with me, of course.

[Interviewer]

What do you say to her when you're talking to her?

[Bereaved Husband]

Sometimes it might just be this is what's been happening. What do you think?

[Interviewer]

What do you hear back?

[Bereaved Husband]

Good question. Even though I talk to her as person and I look at the photos on the phone and I'm talking to who she was, I think my sense is now that her essence is sort of in the ether. So if I hear anything back, it's more a sense of reassurance, like a gentle sense of reassurance, like it's okay.

[Interviewer]

What do you think she would think of your. Oh, it's gonna be a good squirrel chasing me. Squirrel. Hide and seek. Which side of the tree are you?

[Bereaved Husband]

They're trying to figure it out.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Bereaved Husband]

Where's it gone? That one's going. Where's it gone?

[Interviewer]

Is that one gonna be about to be surprised?

[Bereaved Husband]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

We've all got our own games, so you have to. You're forging now an entirely new identity, in a way. It's a completely new start for you. As if from.

[Bereaved Husband]

It isn't. Isn't actually.

[Interviewer]

Of course, it gives you. You're established as you. I know, but as in like, kind of. Is this like an opportunity? Is this a burden? Is this. What does this mean?

[Bereaved Husband]

Tell you something. I noticed, actually. I'm going to backtrack a minute. The first year.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Bereaved Husband]

I marked all the anniversaries because I know. I know about anniversaries. If you don't pay attention to them, they'll come around and smack you in the face. I really didn't want to do a family Christmas because it would have been too painful. And what I decided to do was walk around London. I walk quite a lot. So on Christmas Day, I packed my little ruckus. I had a smoked salmon bagel, I had a flask of coffee, I had mince pies. And I walked down to the city and all around St. Paul's and across the river and it was really nice. It was such a great thing to do.

[Interviewer]

I love that. May I briefly interrupt you by saying my favourite Christmas Day. My first one away from my mum. She was away somewhere and there's family in East London who I knew kind of welcomed me in. But I walked all the way across London to that. And I remember my most favourite walks. It's so rare to get to this walk through London in this kind of completely other state in the middle of the day, just to kind of go. And you feel so kind of. I don't know. It's an amazing feeling. Completely simplified.

[Bereaved Husband]

Yeah, it is. It's so special. Well, it is a special day.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. What a clever idea. So you had your backpack full of bits of pies. How many mince pies to see through?

[Bereaved Husband]

I think only two. And then her birthday. I'm vegetarian, but she wasn't. And on her birthday I actually cooked a roast. A roast chicken, not a steak, roast chicken dinner. And set the table.

[Interviewer]

Did you enjoy the chicken?

[Bereaved Husband]

I like the crispy skin. I don't much like the meat.

[Interviewer]

Oh, what a sweet marking.

[Bereaved Husband]

What other anniversaries were there?

[Interviewer]

Your wedding anniversary, Is that what.

[Bereaved Husband]

Yeah, I'm just trying to think, what did I do then?

[Interviewer]

What was your wedding like?

[Bereaved Husband]

Oh, God. It was a two day affair. We had a civil partnership, which was just for family. And then the next day we had one of the rooms at Kenwood and we had a big party there and we'd ask people to give readings or play music and it was great. It was really great. It was a lovely weekend.

[Interviewer]

How long have you been together before?

[Bereaved Husband]

33 years.

[Interviewer]

33?

[Bereaved Husband]

Yeah. And last weekend was the anniversary of her funeral, which again was great occasion. It was over at the church over there, the other side of the park. And everybody just let me organise it. We had like a hearse with her EU berry on the top.

[Interviewer]

What?

[Bereaved Husband]

Eu berry. You know, blueberry with the yellow stars. A Brexit berry.

[Interviewer]

Yes, that's what it's called.

[Bereaved Husband]

Anti Brexit berry. Yeah, yeah. And people said, you can't do the eulogy, you'll be too emotional. But I did the eulogy.

[Interviewer]

Well done. How did you get through it?

[Bereaved Husband]

I cried a little, but I had to do it because I knew nobody else would be able to do it.

[Interviewer]

What part of the eulogy was most important to you to say?

[Bereaved Husband]

I think what I wanted to do was collect because there were people there from all different parts of her life and I knew that not everybody knew everything about her. And I think a lot of people didn't know how hard she found life. I did it by talking to her. I addressed her.

[Interviewer]

Did she talk at all about what she wanted from any of that herself before she died?

[Bereaved Husband]

No. We talk quite a lot about dying itself and what happens. And we had. We had a narrative.

[Interviewer]

What was that narrative?

[Bereaved Husband]

I mean, what happened in the end was, first of all, she had a premonition. I didn't realize this. I came in one day and she looked really scared. And eventually she said, I heard on the radio that I'm Dying. And I said, oh, I don't think you are, but I will let you know if it looks like you are. And three days after that, she had what turned out to be a massive bleed on the brain. Ambulances came around again. Got very used to ambulances coming around, took her to the hospital, and she died two days later. And I was with her the whole time. So I was telling her the story, sort of lying on the bed next to her, that when she died, she wasn't to worry. She'd just look for the light, go to the light, and that all these people would be there to welcome her, people that she'd known who'd passed over. They'd be there saying, where have you been? We've been waiting for you. And there'd be fish and chips, and there'd be roast dinners, and there'd be ice cream, and Manu would be winning all the football.

[Interviewer]

Every single match.

[Bereaved Husband]

Yes. Yeah. And if she got scared on the way, just say a few. Our fathers

[Interviewer]

say a few words to the big guy.

[Bereaved Husband]

So that was our narrative.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Well, you have a similar narrative and use the same one.

[Bereaved Husband]

Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

Who's gonna say it to you, though?

[Bereaved Husband]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I've got to find that person. Or maybe you know already. So you're telling her this story. She's dying.

[Bereaved Husband]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Did anything particularly strike you in those two days that stayed with you?

[Bereaved Husband]

God, I was cold. I was so cold the first night in the hospital. I was freezing.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Bereaved Husband]

And I think I was in shock as well.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Bereaved Husband]

I never thought to stick my head out of this little door. We were in a private room and asked the nurses for some blankets. What else do I remember? I think the love that, you know, everybody who came came because they loved her. And also, Privilege doesn't feel like the right word, but it's a very special thing to be able to do, You know, to lie there next to her and see her out.

[Interviewer]

Have there been any kind of renewed? Is there a sense of, like, a kind of lurking new purpose there that you explore?

[Bereaved Husband]

I think this is a bit of a cliche. I think it's more about being than doing now. Just being still. I've had a meditation practice for years, but I'm still not very good at being really still for a long time.

[Interviewer]

So, I mean, what will your days look like then? We totally skipped the opening question of this podcast because this is a very rare event of sitting on someone, actual bench. I totally missed it, but it's just funny how these things come around. Well, I always ask people's favorite day of the week because it's. As a starting question, because it's kind of Wednesday or something, I say, what is a good day for you? Now,

[Bereaved Husband]

if I've had a week where I've been very busy, seen a lot of people, been out a lot, had a good time, then a good day would be a day that has absolutely no commitments in it. When I can just potter around and talk to the cats or sit in the garden or read a book and not have to talk to anybody. On the other hand, if I've had a week where I haven't done very much or I felt a bit low, then a good day would be meeting up with somebody that I really like, having a really nice meal out somewhere, maybe a restaurant I haven't tried. So depends.

[Interviewer]

I just realized you didn't answer the difficult question about who's going to whisper in your ear.

[Bereaved Husband]

I don't know. Actually, I think I'd quite like to die alone.

[Interviewer]

Really?

[Bereaved Husband]

Yeah. I'd like to be able to say goodbye, but I don't think I actually want anybody there, like family or anything when I go. Maybe a death doula and doesn't make a fuss, just lets me get on with it.

[Interviewer]

Is that based on what you've seen with Gina or do you think that's just how you would have been? Anyway,

[Bereaved Husband]

I think that's what I'd want. And I'm saying that now, knowing that when the time comes, whenever it is, it might be completely different.

[Interviewer]

You're like, get them all in.

[Bereaved Husband]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

The whole bunch? Many as possible.

[Bereaved Husband]

No, I don't think so. I don't think I want people to watch me die. That's it. I don't think I want people to watch.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, that does make sense. So, no, kind of. You haven't had any particular kind of mad ideas about how you might spend your time? You just want to have a calm time. Just.

[Bereaved Husband]

Well, the thing is, if I was 30, it'd be very different. Yeah, but the rest of my life is not that long.

[Interviewer]

Well, it could be.

[Bereaved Husband]

I wouldn't want it to be.

[Interviewer]

How long do you want it? How long do you want it to be?

[Bereaved Husband]

Well, I'm going to be 80 in three, four years time. Okay, fine, But I certainly don't want to live to 90.

[Interviewer]

You do a lot of walking around?

[Bereaved Husband]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So we may start doing less walking. You can take up skateboarding like this?

[Bereaved Husband]

No, my balance isn't good. I couldn't have done that when I was 20.

[Interviewer]

I could either.

[Bereaved Husband]

I wouldn't Mind you, it'd be quite nice because it's a bit like flying, isn't it?

[Interviewer]

Yeah. There must be. There must be a reason. They all do it. There you go skateboarding next thing. But yeah, so, you know, you might. You know, you could easily have. Ten years is a long time.

[Bereaved Husband]

No, it's not.

[Interviewer]

It's quite long. I'm going to disagree with you. I think it's quite long. You don't think it's long?

[Bereaved Husband]

I think it depends whereabouts in life you are. I have two cats that I have to see out.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, that's okay. That's. That's tough. What are they called?

[Bereaved Husband]

Tabitha and Marmaduke.

[Interviewer]

And you talk to them?

[Bereaved Husband]

Yes. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Bereaved Husband]

Good morning. Cats.

[Interviewer]

That's all they get, though. Are they good company?

[Bereaved Husband]

Yeah, they are because they're very elderly. So what they want is for me to sit down and be still so they can sit on me.

[Interviewer]

Well, both of them. That save time.

[Bereaved Husband]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Do you have a favourite, Marmaduke? Because.

[Bereaved Husband]

Because around about the time of the last pair of cats had died and we were looking for new ones and I had a dream about a ginger cat who was going to be a helper. Right. So when we went looking, one of the stipulations with the rescue agency was one of them had to be a ginger kitten. So I got my ginger kitten.

[Interviewer]

Fantastic. So you're also having premonitions? Everyone's having premonitions or dreams. Is it premonition or a dream?

[Bereaved Husband]

It's a dream.

[Interviewer]

It's a dream. Can I ask you how you came to be in love with Gina? At the start,

[Bereaved Husband]

I was introduced to her by a friend of mine that was on the same training as me. This friend was staying at Gina's flat, so we were all training a psychotherapist at various different institutes.

[Interviewer]

And do you remember your kind of first moment of connection?

[Bereaved Husband]

Well, when you say that, what comes is when we left, and I think there are a couple of other people. I remember Gina leaning over the banister and saying, are you going to leave me all on my own?

[Interviewer]

That was her first meeting?

[Bereaved Husband]

Yeah. She'd just been to her adopted mother's funeral in Manchester and she'd gone out and bought the Bart Passion and the Mozart Passion records. So the sort of things she did,

[Interviewer]

how swiftly after that did things kind of materialise? Was it quickie or slow burner?

[Bereaved Husband]

It was fairly quick. She asked me out on a date. We went to Pizza Hut, and at that time I was unemployed, I had no money and she ordered everything. And then Said we'll split the bill

[Interviewer]

and didn't quite real life and then you're off. That was it.

[Bereaved Husband]

Yeah. It was never an easy relationship. In a way, it got a lot easier when it was a lot easier to love her when she got sick, which I know sounds like a strange thing to say.

[Interviewer]

It's a bit. It was never really relationship, but a long time. That's a long. There must have been.

[Bereaved Husband]

There was a lot of devotion between

[Interviewer]

us last that long. Despite what wasn't easy about her, what

[Bereaved Husband]

was tricky because she was so anxious and I don't think I fully realized how anxious she was until quite towards the end of her life. She had a huge need to know and could be very critical of people who didn't sort of fit into. Into her way of thinking. So, for example, if we were going to go anywhere, visit people, she needed to know when we were going to leave. She needed to know if we were going to a restaurant, what was on the menu. So I had to download menus for her to look at so that she could check whether there was something she'd be able to eat. She would take on people in argument, sort of fearlessly about politics. She was a Labour supporter through and through and would argue with anybody about it. In fact, all our nephews and nieces have memories of sort of being bludgeoned by Tina politically and feeling very guilty if they forgot to vote, that kind of thing.

[Interviewer]

So there was a kind of. A kind of natural volatility to her, just.

[Bereaved Husband]

Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

And at least now to me you don't seem like that, so.

[Bereaved Husband]

No. Was Anne much more laid back than she ever was? Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And how did that dynamic kind of work? I suppose you were calming her down.

[Bereaved Husband]

I've tried, yeah.

[Interviewer]

I quite like the idea of mundane memories. I think often, you know, we go for big dramatic moments. But if I asked you to think about a small event with her, what does your mind go to?

[Bereaved Husband]

I'll tell you the first thing that came into my mind. Okay. She already had her cancer diagnosis before she had her stroke. She'd gone to the kitchen, which was down a flight of stairs.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Bereaved Husband]

To make tea. And she was coming up with a tray and there would have been mugs of tea, maybe a plate of biscuit on it. Right. And she tripped on the stairs and it all went on the floor and she was so upset and I really felt for her because she was trying to do something special.

[Interviewer]

Oh, that's a sad one. We've got to think of a happier one now.

[Bereaved Husband]

Okay. All Right. Okay. All right.

[Interviewer]

Again, a happy small one.

[Bereaved Husband]

This is what comes to mind.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Bereaved Husband]

And this. This was decades before I'd been away somewhere or I've been out for the day, and it was actually just over there and she was coming across the park and she was just running towards me with this big grin on her face and her arms out just over there.

[Interviewer]

Oh, that's lovely. Is there any reason why she was doing.

[Bereaved Husband]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You know, you've lived in an entire long relationship with somebody and clearly there's been moments where it's been really complicated. It sounds like you've clashed heads. Various points. Imagine someone's listening to this and they're a few years into something and a few doubts are in there. Now you've seen all the way through the other side. You know, what would you say to that person about how I might proceed

[Bereaved Husband]

or not go see a therapist.

[Interviewer]

You call. You are. Are you trying to get back in the game?

[Bereaved Husband]

No. No way. That's another life. It's gone.

[Interviewer]

Are you saying they're. First try and fix your own problems and then it's easy to kind of.

[Bereaved Husband]

It's easy to project onto other people rather than look at what's going on for you. And sometimes the dynamics that get set up in couples, it is really helpful to have an outsider be able to observe and see what's going on and help unravel them.

[Interviewer]

Did you do that in your practice? Couples. So you had a couple of therapists?

[Bereaved Husband]

We did various times go and see a couple of therapists, yeah.

[Interviewer]

You weren't.

[Bereaved Husband]

I didn't work with couples, no.

[Interviewer]

So you were a therapist for how long?

[Bereaved Husband]

30 odd years.

[Interviewer]

What kind of therapist were you?

[Bereaved Husband]

Eclectic. I never really trained properly in any one discipline, so. Gestalt, psychosynthesis, psychoanalytic thinking and theory, body psychotherapy, trauma therapy, emdr, eft,

[Interviewer]

seen it all.

[Bereaved Husband]

I think I used to say on my bio that I tailored the therapy to the person who came.

[Interviewer]

It's great service to be able to provide.

[Bereaved Husband]

Thank you.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. I mean, you must have seen so many people and tried to help so many people and you stopped doing it at some point.

[Bereaved Husband]

I don't think I tried to. I don't think I tried to help. I think I tried to provide an environment where they could help themselves.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Was that your style? Is that you're just general overall?

[Bereaved Husband]

This isn't my original saying, but if you let someone talk long enough, they'll find the answer for themselves.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Yeah, I can totally see it. Oh, he's back. It does look very happy. Did look. Really.

[Bereaved Husband]

I bet it feels great.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Maybe we should both do it. This is the takeaway from our conversation. What were the last sessions like when you retired? What kind of atmosphere did they hold?

[Bereaved Husband]

Well, I think we did a lot of reviewing the work and what had changed and what hadn't and what it might be like living without me.

[Interviewer]

How you'll cope without me. Top tips for coping with. Yeah. Were you. Did you get emotional during any of these moments?

[Bereaved Husband]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Is it a funny thought? You wouldn't. I'm guessing emotional because you leave. You're not going to see. You can't really see the people again.

[Bereaved Husband]

The thing about being a therapist is you never know the end of the story. You never know. Well, actually with Google these days, you can with some people.

[Interviewer]

Do you? Little twinkle on the keys.

[Bereaved Husband]

Only. Oh, this sounds like I'm being ever so ethical. There are some people who are actually in the public domain, so I might with them.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Bereaved Husband]

Just to see what they're up to.

[Interviewer]

Celebrities?

[Bereaved Husband]

No, artists and makers and writers.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Bereaved Husband]

Yeah. We got one in our street. We've got a celeb in our street.

[Interviewer]

Oh, that's exciting. How did you welcome the celeb in

[Bereaved Husband]

low key?

[Interviewer]

Did you have you said hello to the celeb? You have.

[Bereaved Husband]

He says hello to me.

[Interviewer]

Oh, fantastic. As he should.

[Bereaved Husband]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

Do you ever think this isn't me being. At least. I don't mean it as like an ageist thing, but. If I were your age. Ground age of 76. Yes. I've got your date of birth here. What were the 50s like, by the way, for you?

[Bereaved Husband]

My 50s?

[Interviewer]

No, the 50s.

[Bereaved Husband]

The 50s. Quiet, I guess, compared to life now. I went to a Catholic primary school, even though my family wasn't Catholic. It was the best primary school in the area.

[Interviewer]

Did you have to pretend to do

[Bereaved Husband]

anything in particular for me at that age? It wasn't pretending, like saying the prayers to the statues in the corner of the room. It was real. It was for real.

[Interviewer]

Of course I had.

[Bereaved Husband]

I left room for my guardian angel when I had my dinner.

[Interviewer]

How you mean? With a chair, you mean.

[Bereaved Husband]

Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

Move up and leave on your own chair.

[Bereaved Husband]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

Oh, sorry. For a minute I thought you were never sitting next to anybody.

[Bereaved Husband]

I collected the holy cards.

[Interviewer]

What is a holy card?

[Bereaved Husband]

So I know that little cards, like Pokemon cards, but with pictures of the saints on.

[Interviewer]

Oh, okay. That's where it all comes from. How many saints are there?

[Bereaved Husband]

Oh, hundreds.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Bereaved Husband]

Hundreds and hundreds.

[Interviewer]

Did you have a favorite?

[Bereaved Husband]

No, but I like Mary Magdalene now.

[Interviewer]

Okay,

[Bereaved Husband]

I'm sure we've been talking for more than 15 minutes.

[Interviewer]

No, we haven't. It's been a 16. No, it's been more than to ride.

[Bereaved Husband]

I thought so. This is the thing about psychotherapists. They always have a sense of an hour going by even though where there's no clock looked at. You know, you should think about training as a therapist. You get people to talk to you. You're a good listener.

[Interviewer]

That's very sweet to say that.

[Bereaved Husband]

I'm sure I'm not the only person.

[Interviewer]

You're not? No, I'm not sure I would do it. I'm not sure I could do it in a professional sense. Anything. I mean as a therapist. Anything you would tell me to do differently in terms of talking to people. That's the first time I've asked that question on the bench.

[Bereaved Husband]

Okay. One thing I'm sure you pick up when somebody has a non verbal response to a question before they answer it. Yeah. And sometimes it might be helpful to comment on that, you know. Oh, look like that question made you look a bit uncomfortable or. You don't have to answer that if you don't want to.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. That's interesting. I probably get a sense, you know, you feel these things so instinctively. I mean, that's the first thing you kind of see anyway.

[Bereaved Husband]

Are you telling me you don't?

[Interviewer]

No, I would say I probably do. I'm saying I don't necessarily ask questions about nonverbal responses.

[Bereaved Husband]

You don't have to ask a question. Could be more like a neutral comment,

[Interviewer]

like you responded like this. Do you think some people feel a bit sensitive about their nonverbal responses because it's like kind of more truthful responses, you know, or you're kind of pointing at something more direct?

[Bereaved Husband]

I think most people like to be seen.

[Interviewer]

This is. Shoot. Even if it's a bit painful. That's a good thought. Yeah. No, I'll take that with me. I'll ask you a few more questions and I'll leave you alone. You're right.

[Bereaved Husband]

I've got a pack.

[Interviewer]

It has to be more. Oh, you got. You're going to Brooklyn.

[Bereaved Husband]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Do you say family?

[Bereaved Husband]

My sister.

[Interviewer]

Going on?

[Bereaved Husband]

Well, yeah.

[Interviewer]

That's nice. Younger?

[Bereaved Husband]

Marginally. Oh, 18 months.

[Interviewer]

Okay, sorry. Remember, they could be twins or something. Marginally. Have you found any kind of odd coping mechanisms in your grief?

[Bereaved Husband]

None that really surprised me. I mean, the usual coping mechanisms like the importance of routine. I've read so much detective fiction because it's easy.

[Interviewer]

Perfect. You'd be a Detective.

[Bereaved Husband]

No, thanks. I don't want to be anything.

[Interviewer]

I'm desperately trying to make you Visa. I don't want to do anything. Just want to have a quiet time. But you're going to New York.

[Bereaved Husband]

I am.

[Interviewer]

So that's not very.

[Bereaved Husband]

I'm going to have a really nice time. We're going to spend a day on the Hudson River. We're going to stay overnight in an inn. We're going to an opera at the Met. We're going to some jazz in Trinity Church on Wall Street. Gonna have lunch with an old friend. Yeah. We make plans in our family.

[Interviewer]

I don't know why I'm so impressed.

[Bereaved Husband]

You know, how to enjoy ourselves. When I was there last time. It's a bit like where she lives. It's a bit like here.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Bereaved Husband]

And there are a lot of really interesting patisseries and bakeries, so we went to about half a dozen of them and bought one croissant from each one. We also went in the local supermarket and bought a pack of theirs. And there were two of her kids there. Right. We put them all out anonymously. And we had a contest. Which one rates on appearance? Which one rates on the.

[Interviewer]

On the snap.

[Bereaved Husband]

The snap? Yeah. On the smell, on the taste.

[Interviewer]

Oh, fantastic.

[Bereaved Husband]

The poor supermarket one was this sort

[Interviewer]

of pale, flaccid that didn't win it. And then the next 10 years, just pure peace.

[Bereaved Husband]

Oh, I'm waiting to find out if

[Interviewer]

it's going to be pure peace or not.

[Bereaved Husband]

No. What it's going to be like. I doubt it'll be pure peace. There's no such thing.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, you're right. I was doing some magical thinking there. I was just hoping. I've got a feeling. I'm not. This is. I'm just going to say annoying things now, because why not? But I've got a feeling something will emerge.

[Bereaved Husband]

It will. It will.

[Interviewer]

And then it will be surprising. And then it will be surprising. Yeah.

[Bereaved Husband]

Something has emerged. It's just come towards me and I've gone, oh, yeah, all right.

[Interviewer]

I've spoken to so many different people about. You can see people who are half your age who don't have certain energy or, you know, don't have certain. Not quite as present. Yeah. Life force. Yeah. And I think when people have life force, it finds its home, doesn't it? Obviously, skateboarding, As you said, like therapy, you don't find out what happens next.

[Bereaved Husband]

No, that's right. And I don't find out what happens to you in your podcast.

[Interviewer]

Well, you might do. Very useful for you Actually, I walked past you. When I first walked past you, you had your eyes closed and I got a really good feeling about you. And I was like, oh, it's annoying that she's got her eyes closed. I feel like I can't.

[Bereaved Husband]

Did you. Were you walking up and down?

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Bereaved Husband]

Waiting for me to open my eyes?

[Interviewer]

Yeah, basically. And I thought maybe she's just someone who's just not going to open her eyes. That's just her thing. I mean, I've got used to really interrupting people, but interrupting someone who's got their eyes closed just stepped too far for me. But it gave me a chance to really look at you, to check that I was in the right. I was in the right place. And I don't need too long, I think, you know, you just get a real sense.

[Bereaved Husband]

So what was it about me that you thought, aha, she's a good one.

[Interviewer]

Very, very still. So the eyes closed. Yeah, for me, that was saying you're thinking about something, obviously, deeply, and then just the general aura, which is really just wordless. It's just what someone gives off. And then you hope that person says yes to you. Then

[Bereaved Husband]

I'm very glad you asked. This bench, by the way, is very used to having people interact because I will come up here if there are people sitting here. I say, I'm really sorry, would you mind? This is my wife. She died last year. I've just come to talk to her. And most people go, yes.

[Interviewer]

Oh, wow, that's amazing. So you shoo people off.

[Bereaved Husband]

I do.

[Interviewer]

Good on you. I have. Conversations started as a result.

[Bereaved Husband]

Well, there was one guy who obviously didn't get the hint and he just stayed. He just said, oh, yes, I know, I'll go and talk to my mum. And then kept talking about himself.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I think it's funny for most people because when you see adventure dedications, typically they're all dead. Whereas you're a rare one to have a living one.

[Bereaved Husband]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So maybe people don't say something about

[Bereaved Husband]

our relationship, you know?

[Interviewer]

Of course it does.

[Bereaved Husband]

My nephew has instructions that when I go, he has to change that and put my death date on as well.

[Interviewer]

No, that's a. That's a good one. Yeah. No, it's a beautiful one. Last question for you.

[Bereaved Husband]

Okay.

[Interviewer]

Actually, well, we kind of know what you're gonna do, but I'll ask this question anyway. I always ask people what they're going

[Bereaved Husband]

to do next on the way home. I need to buy some bread for the person who's house sitting for me. And then I'M gonna pack.

[Interviewer]

They not buy their own bread. It's a nice thing.

[Bereaved Husband]

It's a courtesy.

[Interviewer]

What bread do you get for someone who.

[Bereaved Husband]

For this person? A decent, solid whole meal.

[Interviewer]

Nice. Anything else?

[Bereaved Husband]

I've got a fridge full of food.

[Interviewer]

Oh, great. What a good gig. And he's just got to look after the cats.

[Bereaved Husband]

Yeah. What am I going to do next in life?

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Bereaved Husband]

I'm going to America.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, you are going.

[Bereaved Husband]

I'm going to have fun.

[Interviewer]

All your plans.

[Bereaved Husband]

And when I come back, I shall take stock, see where I am then. I shall probably do some taking stock while I'm away. It's good, you know, when you get a space from your life that you're embedded in, see things a bit differently. It's the end of the first year, second year. Some people say it's just as hard in a different way. Wait and see.

[Interviewer]

Don't forget the skateboarding, though.

[Bereaved Husband]

I won't forget the skateboarding. I won't forget the skateboarding.

[Interviewer]

It's crucial.

[Bereaved Husband]

Would a scooter do?

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Bereaved Husband]

There's always.

[Interviewer]

Not an electric one.

[Bereaved Husband]

Yeah. Okay. It feels a bit safer. It's something to put my hands on.

[Interviewer]

It does feel a bit safer, doesn't it? Yeah. You could say it's a gateway. Maybe you could start with a scooter and go on to the skateboard if you're really enjoying it. Well, thank you for talking to me.

[Bereaved Husband]

Thank you for stopping and talking to me.

[Interviewer]

It's a beautiful time to think. Talk to someone on their bench. What an honour. And it's been great. Thank you.

[Bereaved Husband]

You're welcome.

[Poet or Narrator]

Magical thinking. You do it too Careful with words in case they come true. There's a mad lady set in the park Talking to someone who's back with years. She's closing her eyes, taking a time she's listening out for the answer. I hope that I'm like a wind. You were gonna hope that. We'll never stop talking, She says Gina heard it on the radio and it was her time to go. That's how love is a dream here before you see her up there leaning. Go to the parties, have a good time. Go to New York. Keep feeling alive. That's what I'd want if I went first. That's what I'd say from the other side. You carry it round like a heavy balloon until it bursts until the love pl. You. You be the. My lady sat in the park closing your eyes and we'll never stop talking. We'll never stop talking. We'll never stop talking. Talking. We'll never stop talking. We'll never stop talking.