EPISODE 87: Charge It To The Game

Summary

Strangers on a Bench — Episode 87: Charge It To The Game
Date: May 11, 2026
Host: Tom Rosenthal
Guest: Anonymous Courier
Location: The "bench" is the front ledge in the courier’s van (due to rain)

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Episode Overview

This unique episode finds Tom Rosenthal sharing a conversation not on a literal bench, but the makeshift “bench” in the back of a courier's van, after being rained out in a London park. The episode delves into the courier’s life story, beginning with the simplicity of his favorite peaceful Tuesday afternoons, unraveling into profound reflections on surviving a traumatic childhood accident, building a life as an immigrant, navigating loss, trust, work, love, and the nature of everyday connections. The guest's warmth, resilience, and humor shine as he candidly recounts personal battles and wisdom gathered through years making deliveries in London.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Peace of Tuesdays and Courier Life (01:33–02:44)

• Favorite day: Tuesdays—his "quietest day," finishing work before 2 pm; his only day of stillness in an otherwise hectic schedule.
• Post-Tuesday routine: Home, food, relaxing with family and friends—valued as a rare chance to “just be human.”

  “Just to have one peaceful day just makes a massive difference. I can be human.” (Courier, 02:43)

2. Going with the Flow: Living Unplanned (03:16–04:43)

• Dream day: Full English fry-up, coffee, and “seeing where life takes me.” He values spontaneity over planning.
• Spontaneous holiday: Booked a rare weekend off to Paris, found the city overwhelming and prefers London.

  “To travel is better than to arrive.” (Courier, 04:41)

3. The Bleach Story: Surviving Childhood Trauma (05:35–10:57)

• At age three in Algeria, mistakenly drank bleach; underwent several operations, moved to the UK for life-saving treatment.
• Fed via a stomach tube until age 10, couldn't eat by mouth, isolated from other children and separated from his father.
• Reflects on how this ordeal made him who he is today—a “blessing and a curse.”

  “If I didn’t do that, I wouldn’t be a British resident now or citizen, giving me the opportunity to make a life here and become the man that I am.” (Courier, 10:40)

4. Alienation and Resilience: School Years, Bullies, and Pride (12:07–15:48)

• Endured bullying for scars and his feeding tube; never confided in teachers or his mother, citing pride and cultural pressures.
• Withdrew emotionally, took pride in resilience.

  “I don’t really care about anything or anyone or what people think. It’s just OK, it is what it is and move on with your life.” (Courier, 12:07)

5. A Fresh Start & Finding Himself (15:38–18:41)

• Shedding his old scars at secondary school allowed for reinvention; last time he recalls feeling “properly happy.”
• Calls himself “the clown below the clown,” habitually in playful trouble, maturing slowly (“21, maybe 22”).
• Dropped out of university twice; studied to please his mother, but “some people are book smart, some are street smart.”

6. From Prize Salesman to Courier: Lessons in Ambition and Boundary-Pushing (19:04–21:40)

• Excelled in retail and telecom sales (best in the country), left following “greed and mischief” involving improper workplace conduct—“lesson learned the hard way,” narrowly avoiding legal trouble.

7. People Person: Finding Human Connection in Courier Work (22:02–27:01)

• Loves the community aspect of being a courier; knows most of his regulars by first name, part of the fabric of local lives—a rare, trusted presence.

  “It’s a community, it’s a big family… There are some people that you don’t want in the family, but at the end, day is family.” (Courier, 23:00)

• Shares anecdotes about the deep, sometimes overlooked connections couriers can forge—delivering trust, small acts of kindness, and noticing loneliness, particularly among the wealthy.

8. Trust, Empathy, and Unseen Care (27:06–31:43)

• Recounts earning the trust of skeptical customers through consistent kindness (e.g., returning a lost key, receiving gifts in gratitude).
• Highlights his connection to neighbors’ challenges—from comforting a mother of an anorexic daughter (partly due to sharing his own medical history), to inadvertently witnessing infidelity.

9. Windows on Life: Observing Human Nature Through Deliveries (32:54–34:07)

• Reflects on how proximity to many lives offers unique insight: sees both unfulfilled wealth and joy in simplicity.
• Most important advice: “Stay in school and study… or you need to have a talent.”

10. Gaps, Regrets, and Fatherhood (34:07–36:41)

• Laments not having received financial education, and the absence of his father after emigrating—pride and distance keep them apart.

  “There’s a lot of things that as a man I had to learn to do on my own, like ride a bike, shave, play football, go out for a meal…” (Courier, 36:15)

11. Romance, Scars, and New Beginnings (36:41–46:08)

• Recently seeing someone new (“yes and no”), with emotional walls from a brief, tumultuous marriage and subsequent divorce.
• Moving from seeking looks to prioritizing personality; values openness, humor, compatibility, and trust.

  “Love is a beautiful mess. It's a love-hate relationship you have with love.” (Courier, 47:09)

12. Friendship, Healing, and “Charging It to the Game” (49:39–50:54)

• Two close friends (20+ years) helped him recover from deep post-divorce depression.
• Shares guiding philosophy: "Charge it to the game"—a motto for accepting life's inevitable pains.

  “If anything ever happens… just charge it to the game of life. It is what it is.” (Courier, 50:24)

13. Simple Hopes, Reality of Courier Life, and Joy in the Everyday (51:16–54:47)

• Desires a peaceful, simple life, potentially a business venture, but most of all more “peaceful Tuesdays.”
• Describes the grind of courier work: long hours, few days off, Christmas “six weeks without a day off,” the peculiar questions from customers—and the odd joys of habitual contact.
• Responds to “beautiful sight” question: finds beauty in quiet, everyday moments—people walking dogs, a small shared wave.

  “It’s the little things… they’re the things that make the big things.” (Courier, 54:25)

14. Freedom and Self-Realization (56:03–56:35)

• Feels most free watching Arsenal play—90 minutes of escape.
• Finds peace at 3am on a beach in Thailand; realizes the importance of self-worth and acceptance.

  “[On Phuket beach] I felt at peace for the first time in years… whatever’s happened has happened. Whatever is written for me is written for me. And right now I’m happy.” (Courier, 58:54)

15. Living Forward—Letting Go of Barriers (60:33–61:44)

• Looking ahead, he resolves to live more fully, lowering his self-imposed restrictions, seeking experience:

  “Now I’m gonna live. Like, I’m really gonna live… taking everything and doing everything.” (Courier, 60:48)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On going with the flow:

  “Sometimes planning is a distraction from living, if that makes any sense. I just like to go with the flow.” (Courier, 03:28)

• On childhood trauma:

  “I drank bleach when I was 3 years old in Algeria… if I didn’t do that, then I wouldn’t be a British resident now or citizen, giving me the opportunity to make a life here.” (Courier, 05:54, 10:50)

• On alienation and bullying:

  “You just have to deal with it… you just gotta learn to bite your tongue and leave it.” (Courier, 13:57)

• On sales success:

  “The whole country. 17,000 employees and I was number one, which is crazy.” (Courier, 20:09)

• On trust and humanity:

  “I deliver to Christians, Jewish people, Buddhists, atheists, every single person. One thing is, we’ve all got the same respect for each other.” (Courier, 24:17)

• On love and heartbreak:

  “It was beautiful until the wedding day… she has an argon with my mum, massive argument in front of everyone at the wedding hall.” (Courier, 38:03, 40:10)

• On life philosophy:

  “Charge it to the game, man.” (Courier, 50:54)

• On small joys:

  “It's the little things… just seeing people walking their dogs… that means more than a lot, if that makes any sense.” (Courier, 54:25)

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Timestamps for Significant Segments

• 01:33 — Peace of Tuesdays, Courier routine
• 03:16 — Dream day & “going with the flow” philosophy
• 05:41 — Childhood bleach accident & move to the UK
• 10:14 — Reflection on immigrant life and mother’s sacrifice
• 12:07–15:48 — Bullying, pride, school, and resilience
• 19:04–21:08 — Retail/EE career, peak performance, and “lesson learned”
• 22:02–27:01 — Community, trust, and stories from courier work
• 36:41 — Absence of father, learning to be a man
• 38:03–44:17 — Love, marriage, traumatic wedding, divorce
• 49:39–50:54 — Friendship, depression, “charge it to the game”
• 51:16–54:47 — Simple life, courier realities, beauty in the everyday
• 56:03 — Watching Arsenal for freedom and joy
• 58:54 — Peaceful moment in Thailand: self-worth realization
• 60:33 — Future hopes, living fully, dropping barriers

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Final Thoughts

Despite the rain and the unconventional setting, this episode is a portrait of resilience, warmth, and the meaningfulness found in everyday connections. The courier’s openness about his scars, mistakes, and hopes, his love for simple joys, and his commitment to charging setbacks “to the game” offer a resonant, hopeful message: life's value lies in small kindnesses, authentic connection, and finding meaning no matter the setting.

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Transcript

[Interviewer]

Hello.

[Courier]

Sorry to bother you.

[Interviewer]

Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a. Okay. How you feeling?

[Courier]

Good. How's it going?

[Interviewer]

Great. So let's explain what's happened here. We were about to sit on a bench, but it started raining.

[Courier]

Heavily.

[Interviewer]

Heavily. So this is a bench first. We are on a bench.

[Courier]

Technically.

[Interviewer]

Technically. But this bench is in your van.

[Courier]

100.

[Interviewer]

It is a small little ledgy boy,

[Courier]

but it's a bench, you know.

[Interviewer]

There you go. So this is new territory. Okay. Should I tell you how this works?

[Courier]

Let's go.

[Interviewer]

There's a start question and an ending question. Is the same for everyone who does this. And whatever happens in the middle just happens in the middle. If there's any questions you don't like, just, you know, shove me out the van.

[Courier]

Sounds good. Sounds alright.

[Interviewer]

I'm good at it. I'll be right out. First question is, do you have a favorite day of the week?

[Background Singer]

Oh,

[Courier]

I do. Tuesday. Why? Tuesday is my quietest day of the week. The only day where I finish before 2pm, which is rare. Every other day I'm working until God knows when I finish.

[Interviewer]

So on Tuesday after two, you know, what is the dream? I just realized we said you're in the back of a van. We should probably say what this. Because if people are going to be wondering, oh yeah, why in the back of that? Yeah, it looks like you deliver packages.

[Courier]

I do.

[Interviewer]

Unless you just have a lot of packages.

[Courier]

Yeah, it's stolen from everyone. Yeah, I'm a courier in the area, been here for six years. And Tuesday is the only day where I can finish early and I get two days off a month. So it's consistent hectic and mad all at the same time. But it's lovely, if that makes any sense.

[Interviewer]

Does make sense.

[Courier]

And on Tuesdays when I'm finished, I tend to do nothing, which is amazing.

[Interviewer]

Pure peace.

[Courier]

Yeah, man.

[Interviewer]

What does nothing look like?

[Courier]

Go home, eat, relax at home with the family and then see the boys. If I could see the boys and sleep. It's just where my life is just so heavy all the time. Just to have one peaceful day just makes a massive difference. I can be human. So yeah, that's why I like Tuesdays.

[Interviewer]

That's a good answer. What would you be like? Let's imagine one of these Tuesdays, but it's totally free.

[Courier]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

What would be Your dream way of spending that whole day. Was there anything you would particularly do?

[Courier]

So first thing is have a fry up. Nothing beats a good fry up, you know, proper English breakfast.

[Interviewer]

What's in there?

[Courier]

Oh, sausage, beans, double hash browns.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, get the double in there.

[Courier]

Get the double hash browns. Toast as well. Mushrooms, tomatoes. Just a full wet. No, I'm a skinny. Can I swear? Yeah, you can swear I'm a skinny, fat prick. All right, so anything to do with food and then a coffee and honestly, whatever life takes me, I don't like to plan, I like to live. Sometimes planning is a distraction from living, if that makes any sense. I just like to go with the flow of it. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Can you give a good a go with the flow example?

[Courier]

You know what, last time I'd done it was quite big as well. It was a spontaneous holiday. I got the weekend off, which is very rare. Like I never get weekends off ever.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Courier]

So do you want a weekend off? Yeah, of course. That evening I went home, booked a holiday and I went to Paris for the weekend.

[Interviewer]

Superb.

[Courier]

And it was amazing.

[Interviewer]

How did you find Paris? What's the Paris vibe?

[Courier]

I'm not a fan, if I'm honest. I'm not a fan if I'm honest.

[Interviewer]

You booked it but you didn't like it?

[Courier]

Yeah. You know, it's good to try different countries, different food, different cultures and see if it's for you or for not.

[Interviewer]

That's the spirit.

[Courier]

Yeah, man. To travel is better than to arrive.

[Interviewer]

What do you think it was about it that wasn't quite like. Wasn't quite your vibe?

[Courier]

When you go to Paris, it's basically London, but just nicer scenery. Yeah, the food was nice with the Eiffel Tower, you know, you got the Mona Lisa, you got all of that lovely, lovely stuff, but it's just non stop, just so busy. Right. And the trains stink. Have you ever been to Paris?

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Courier]

The tubes stink, it's so bad. Right. But apart from that, it's just. Yeah, I prefer London.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, it's absolutely fair. Yeah, of course, that's totally fair.

[Courier]

London's home.

[Interviewer]

Has London always been home?

[Courier]

Yeah, I mean, I'm 35 in a month. I came in. Thank you, man.

[Interviewer]

So tell me, right, you're about to say you came here and you're three years old.

[Courier]

Yeah. From Algeria.

[Interviewer]

Fantastic.

[Courier]

Yeah, yeah. North Africa. Beautiful sky, beautiful food, beautiful weather.

[Interviewer]

Do you know why you. I mean, I'm guessing you know why you came. What was the story behind you coming?

[Courier]

Oh, yeah, it's a. It's a Lovely story, actually.

[Interviewer]

Oh, is it? Okay, here we go.

[Courier]

Yeah, yeah. So, hit me. When I was three years old, I drank bleachers.

[Interviewer]

Hang on, hang on. This is actually part of the story

[Courier]

of why I came to the uk.

[Interviewer]

Because you drank bleach?

[Courier]

I drank bleach when I was 3 years old in Algeria. So let me explain a picture for you, right? Yeah, hit me. So we live in, like a block of flats, right, In Algeria. In Algeria, right? And I'm on the sixth floor and I was thirsty and I remember it to this day, I ran upstairs, little old me, right? Entered the kitchen. At the bottom of the kitchen, under the sink, you know, they got the cabinet, right? And we had two bottles and the bottles looked like water, right? But they didn't have. No, no, no labels. That's the word, right? So I just saw it and I drank, literally a lid full of bleach. And on the spot, I just puked everywhere, right? So the doctors in Algeria said to my mum, look, your son, he's not going to live, he's going to die. So I got, what, three operations in Algeria and they sent me here for medical reasoning. So I went to Great Ormond Street Hospital and there was a doctor, I'll never forget him, actually, he's a godsend. He said the operation is going to cost about, realistically, 20,000. But look, if you can sum up 10,000 to my mum, this is in 1994. It's a lot of money. She wasn't working, she had no paperwork, she's not a resident of the uk. She had nothing. All she came was for my son's medication. And we're gonna go back, right? This is a true story. That's amazing, right? So my mum, she just took me around all different charities, just. Just raised 10,000 and went back to him, like, here's. Here's the money, you know, here it is, done the operation, they had to cut 2.5 cm of my esophagus and they had to cut 2 cm of my intestines off as well. So they opened me up from my front and from my back. So I've got, like, stitches in my stomach and in my back as well. It's a funny story. So until I was in year five, which is what's up, it's about 10 years old. Yeah, right. I used to eat from my stomach. I was not allowed to eat hard food.

[Interviewer]

Sorry. So again, you see through.

[Courier]

I used to eat through my stomach, I was not allowed to eat through my mouth, so I had the tube in My stomach and I used to eat from it.

[Interviewer]

Oh, whoa.

[Courier]

Right, Just through there, through here. So I used to have a tube here and I used to have baby food pumping through it to eat. This is near 5. And then these are the operations for

[Interviewer]

the purpose of people who can't see our strangers. Lifted up his top to reveal that he's got amazing. Like, what do you call it? A hole?

[Courier]

A second belly button.

[Interviewer]

Second belly button, yeah, yeah.

[Courier]

So that was how.

[Interviewer]

That was from ages, what, 5 to 10, you say?

[Courier]

From the operation, which is when I was about four until I was in year five. So about. Yeah, 10 to 11 years old, give or take.

[Interviewer]

So that meant you just didn't taste anything, obviously, right?

[Courier]

No.

[Interviewer]

So what was that like when you were 10? What happened then? It was just like.

[Courier]

So I was in school, in primary school, and it was lunchtime or break time and we were playing football. From what I recall, the tube that I eat from must have fell and because it fell, I had to go back to the hospital and they said, yeah, it's time to feed your son properly. He needs to learn how to chew and how to eat.

[Interviewer]

I've got a lot of questions for you now.

[Courier]

Sure.

[Interviewer]

I suppose the first question I came to is, like, what was the impact on you as a person having to endure all this? You've done something completely random. Age three, it's completely changed your life. Well, forever, basically. But, like, how has it, like, shaped who you are? Who would you be without this?

[Courier]

That's a deep question, man. You know, because of me drinking bleach. That's it in two different aspects. In one aspect, it meant that I couldn't have a proper childhood. Wasn't allowed to go out, wasn't allowed to go to play dates and all these things with your friends. I didn't have a chance to live with my father. Right. Because he stayed in Algeria, he didn't want to move back to the uk.

[Interviewer]

That meant you weren't with him as well?

[Courier]

Just me and my mum since forever. So in that respect, it showed me the value of having someone who actually gave their life for you to the fullest, as my mom did. But then it also allowed me to understand people more and differently, if that makes sense. Like, I understand everyone's different, everyone's had their own pain and misery or a blessing, which I call it, because if I didn't do that, then I wouldn't be a British resident now or citizen, giving me the opportunity to make a life here and become the man that I am. So it's a blessing and a curse, if that makes any sense.

[Interviewer]

That's obviously a beautiful way of thinking about it. You know, it's important we think about these things as positive we can to that help us survive it.

[Courier]

Yeah, of course.

[Interviewer]

On the curse front, like, what if it has really held you back? Is there any bit of it? Like.

[Courier]

Yeah, most of it. Most of it. Like, literally most of it. Like, it becomes an aspect where I can't do things that I want to do. Like, even till now, there's certain things that I cannot eat properly. My esophagus is too small. It's not a normal esophagus size. So then it gets stuck. This happened recently, lamb chops. And because I didn't chew properly, it got stuck in my esophagus and I had to go to the hospital and they had to put a tube down my throat to push it down. Oh, man. I can't breathe. Right. Yeah. Just through one little silly mistake is completely. In a way, it's messed up my life. Yeah. But then if I did and I was like a normal kid who drank water and obliged. Yeah. I would not be here. Yeah. Well, it's. I mean, it is in it.

[Interviewer]

I've got two silly questions that come to mind.

[Courier]

Yeah, go for it.

[Interviewer]

But, like, I mean, just. Do you find this bleach anything now just, like, triggering?

[Courier]

No.

[Interviewer]

Does it mean anything? Like, do you see it and like. Like throw you off?

[Courier]

I've learned not to take life too serious because I grew up in a school where I used to get bullied a lot. Right. Because I used to have a tube and everyone would see it and like, oh, you got two belly buttons and, you know, you can't eat like a normal kid and it fucks up with your brain, you know, like, everyone else around me, they're like, everyone would play with everyone that was just that one kid that was on his own a lot. Right. And that as a child, if again, it messes you up dramatically. So I've learned now that I don't really care about anything or anyone or what people think. It's just okay, it is what it is and move on with your life. So when I do see bleach, I just laugh. Like my sister now is, whenever she said, be careful, don't drink that.

[Interviewer]

You can eventually laugh about everything if you wait long.

[Courier]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's it.

[Interviewer]

That's the magic. Tell me, like, at the time, obviously you're three and you drunk it. Is there any. Any part of you that places any Blame on anyone, obviously. I was three. I didn't know what I was doing.

[Courier]

But as much as you want to, you can't because you just make an excuse and excuses get you nowhere in life. I messed up. I drank bleach. I'm here now. Could have been worse. Could have been dead.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Courier]

I couldn't blame someone else.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Courier]

And that's the last thing I want to do, you know, start blaming someone for something that they had no knowledge of, no intention of. What difference is that going to make now? It's done.

[Interviewer]

You say like you. You had a tube in at school and stuff and you know, used to be teased and whatnot. Like, how did you get through that?

[Courier]

You don't. That's the reality of it. You don't. You just have to deal with it.

[Interviewer]

So how did you deal with it at the time? You just like, just tried to not.

[Courier]

You can't listen to it cuz like you're a kid, you're going to fight someone. I'm already skinny. They're going to end up hurting me and that's it. That's another injury caused already done my body, innit. You know, just gotta learn to bite your tongue and leave it. Yeah. Yeah. Who.

[Interviewer]

Who helped you get through that time? Other than yourself?

[Courier]

That I didn't tell anyone. Oh, whoa. Yeah. Okay. I couldn't.

[Interviewer]

Why?

[Courier]

I don't know. As silly as it sounds, it's just, in a way, it's pride. But then this way it's starting another problem that you don't need. Where I'm from, in London, if you see something's wrong and you grass, as they say, or snitch or tell someone, it's going to come back to you regardless. So sometimes I just let it be. It's going to sound messed up because I should have told someone about it. Just didn't.

[Interviewer]

You're not even your mum.

[Courier]

No. As much as I love my mom and I tell her so much, I've always restricted what I told her in everything in life which is good and bad.

[Interviewer]

So what about your teacher? Do they see it at all or is it kind of just always away from them?

[Courier]

I guess it's always away from them really, because my mum used to come to school right at lunchtime to feed me and she'd take me to a separate room which they gave to her so no one else could see me being fed. Yeah, yeah, to eat. But before and after, it's back to normal.

[Interviewer]

And when, like, when did that kind of stop?

[Courier]

When I went to secondary School. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

That was like a new start.

[Courier]

That was like a new chapter.

[Interviewer]

So you rock up and you're without the tubes.

[Courier]

Without the tubes.

[Interviewer]

See that?

[Courier]

No one knows anything about me. It's just a normal kid who's come

[Interviewer]

to school and so you can pretty much start again.

[Courier]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. From secondary school. This is a good while back now, thinking about it. This is the last time where I was properly happy. That makes any sense. There was no responsibility, no bills, no. No expectations. Just go study and do your best.

[Interviewer]

How did you place yourself in school? You know, when you're that age, you often find a role to be like, you know, you're the clown or what did you, you know, where did you put yourself?

[Courier]

I wanted to be the clown. I'm the clown below the clown. Yeah. So I was the clown that got caught and everything that happened, you mean?

[Interviewer]

I didn't say. You try, you know, you're. You're a bit cheeky when you got caught.

[Courier]

Yeah, you try to be cheeky, but every time your teacher catches you in, you're in detention, you're in trouble.

[Interviewer]

Can you think any particular examples of things you might have done?

[Courier]

So much. I've done so much.

[Interviewer]

Go, Grandpa.

[Courier]

Whereas when you're. When you're young and you're childish, you don't know what you're doing. Yeah. You just save for the sake of saying. I think that's one habit I've still got to. Till now, where I speak what I think. I don't think what I speak.

[Interviewer]

Got it.

[Courier]

Makes sense.

[Interviewer]

I see. So that would obviously land you in

[Courier]

a lot of trouble, but. Yeah, that was a little. Yeah, I was a little ass.

[Interviewer]

When did you kind of like. Maybe you haven't. I don't know. But when. When was a point where you kind of like became not a little ass?

[Courier]

I don't know. For me, I'm matured. Late. I like 21, maybe 22. That's very late.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, that makes sense, isn't it? If you've had a childhood like yours where you've like, your growth has been stunted by. By lots of different stuff in terms of emotional growth. Right.

[Courier]

Oh yeah.

[Interviewer]

But it probably makes sense that it would happen later on.

[Courier]

Yeah, yeah. It's like 21, I think, or 22. And I decided working. I went to university and I dropped out. And then I went to another university and I dropped out again.

[Interviewer]

Let's rewind a minute. Why. Why did you drop out of boat?

[Courier]

I was just not.

[Interviewer]

Just went into it.

[Courier]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Why did you go in the first

[Courier]

place, I've done it for the sake of making my mum happy. Yeah, Right. Because that was her thing. So I went the first year I've done business management and marketing. I thought, yeah, this is a good subject. Let me try it. Halfway through the year, I said, yeah, I'm not doing this no more. I rather work. You know, there's some people who are book smart and there's some people who are work smart, if that makes any street smart. Yeah, street smart, basically. But now I'm forcing myself to learn more and read more and educate myself more.

[Interviewer]

I mean, yeah, everyone could be both, I guess, or can improve at both. Right. At least.

[Courier]

Yeah. Knowledge is beautiful, knowledge is free, but people don't have the. The money to pay for it, if that makes any sense. And money's time.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Or like that kind of history.

[Courier]

And also, it's just like I was kind of pushed into doing business studies. Right. If I had the choice, I'd probably done something else and maybe I would have continued and studied and got a degree.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Well, at least you can say you tried it twice. I'd say you drop out.

[Courier]

Yep. And then I started working in retailer Clark's in odd shoe shop. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Courier]

Loved it. That's where I really learned to grow and become more of a man. You know, when you start making money, you start to spend for yourself, provide for the house.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Courier]

All these things shape you. That's where I learned how to sell and I love sales. So that's where I thought, you know what, maybe I can be a salesman. Let me try that out. So I crossed the road, went into ee the phone shop and I asked for a job. Then they were like, yeah, cool. So within the space of two days, cross the road, got a job at ee phone shop. Then my manager, my old man was like, what are you doing? I'm like, started a new job, mate. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Waving across the road to the old manager. He hated me, I bet.

[Courier]

Yeah. Yeah. Hated me.

[Interviewer]

Why a year, not the shoes if she's got boys?

[Courier]

I've always been fascinated with technology and phones. You know, at that age, everyone wants the newest phone and I want to be the guy to sell it. And I was actually really good at it. She won a lot of awards from. There was the best salesman in the whole country.

[Interviewer]

Oh, wicked.

[Courier]

Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

The whole country.

[Courier]

The whole country. 17,000 employees and I was number one, which is crazy.

[Interviewer]

What?

[Courier]

Yeah, yeah, I suppose.

[Interviewer]

So the big question is like,

[Courier]

I

[Interviewer]

hope you don't take a slight offense to this question.

[Courier]

How did I get here?

[Interviewer]

How do you go from being the top of something to them not doing it at all?

[Courier]

Two very stupid reasons. Right. The first one is greed and the second one is mischief.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Courier]

Right. Yeah. So you. Right.

[Interviewer]

I don't think which one came first? I think I kind of mean they're together.

[Courier]

Yeah. It's interchange. So hence why I left the phone business.

[Background Singer]

Right.

[Courier]

I'm not happy about it, but it's a lesson learned the hard way.

[Interviewer]

Are these things, I mean, can I ask, are they like.

[Courier]

They're not legal?

[Interviewer]

No, they're not legal. Okay. But you. Someone must have found something so you couldn't do it or you jumped.

[Courier]

Yeah, basically.

[Interviewer]

But then you didn't get in trouble.

[Courier]

No, because before they done investigation, I left.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Courier]

And so I quickly ran away from it. Yeah. And then I went to work for another company and then the other company was a franchise. Yeah. And the franchise owner goes to them. Look, if you don't get rid of this person, we're going to take one of your branches to the franchise owner. So he was like, yeah, look, I'm really sorry, we have to get rid of you.

[Interviewer]

So you're. So your former job still came after you.

[Courier]

Correct.

[Interviewer]

And so at that point you're like,

[Courier]

I'm just gonna leave it. Yeah. So I left it completely.

[Interviewer]

You say you're like top salesman, et cetera, et cetera. It's obviously enjoyed that. And you're good at it. Like, what made you good at it? What? Like the top three qualities you've got to have. What's the great secret?

[Courier]

You've got to be a people's person. You've got to be able to adapt to every situation and to every single person, because every single person that comes to you is something completely brand new that you don't know. So adaptability. And you've got to be able to like charm your way into them and go for a close. Close a deal.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Courier]

What's the worst someone could say no? Okay. He said no, try again and then keep trying and eventually he's going to say yes. And I was good at talking to people. I enjoyed it. I'm very relaxed, cool, calm, collected. That's the best way to be in sales, I believe, anyway.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Courier]

Like it.

[Interviewer]

So a combination of, like charm.

[Courier]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

A bit of push, but also keeping your cool.

[Courier]

100%.

[Interviewer]

Is that fair? A fair assessment?

[Courier]

100%. Well, you have to be confident as well, man. Yeah. And a bit cocky as well.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. So I'm guessing in your job now, you're still seeing people just without the sales bit.

[Courier]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So in a sense you still got that, which is nice. Is there something in you that like, needs that?

[Courier]

Yeah, yeah, 100%. Because it's. I can't work in the office, I can't be confined into one little space. I hate it. And me delivering your parcel, it's. You allow me to enter into your life and me enter into your life. Because everyone that I delivered to, I basically know them practically by first name basis now. Been delivering them for what, five, six years now. So I know their routines, I know when they go on holiday, like they tell me everything practically. And it's lovely because if anything happens in the area, I quickly notice it. Like if I see someone that's not meant to be, I know, like a sense of responsibility as well. It's a lot of trust. It's a community, it's a big family. That's how I see it. There are some people that you don't want in the family, but at the end, day is family.

[Interviewer]

I've got a lot of questions for you about.

[Courier]

Go ahead, man.

[Interviewer]

Being a courier, you were doing it five years, he's a.

[Courier]

The same, same area.

[Interviewer]

You've got to know people. Like, what level of trust have you reached with some people? Does. Would anyone like, invite you in for a tea or like all the time. Yeah. So that's common.

[Courier]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

Amazing.

[Courier]

Like, I. I work in a very uptown area, right? Yeah. And their lifestyle compared to my lifestyle where I live is night and day different here. They're happy, the roads are clean, they speak polite. I live in an area where everyone's miserable and everything is dirty. It's a different world. Obviously, I'm delivering their goods and I want to do my job properly because I know them and it's a matter of trust. But, you know, when you go outside your way for someone that you don't need to do, it's a nice touch and it's rare, especially in this time and age, for people, especially what's going on in the world as well. I'm Muslim myself. I deliver to Christians, Jewish people, Buddhists, atheists, every single person. And one thing is, we've all got the same respect for each other. That's the most important thing and that's the best way, you know?

[Interviewer]

Yeah. You get a sense of people being a bit lonely. Like, you pick up on that, these people.

[Courier]

100%. Yeah, 100% at that moment. The old lady that lives up there, right?

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Courier]

She's from Thailand. I don't know her name. I've been dealing with her for five years. I call her Granny. That's it. I come in, Granny. Oh, hello my son. How are you? I sit down with her, help her because like she's got no one there.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Courier]

And when I see her, even if I don't have something, I've called just to make sure. Do you need any milk? Do you need any of this? Just a double check on her, you know, and you know, just me just calling her Granny, like it makes her happy for that 2, 3, 4 minutes. And then I go back my day. But there's a lot of people who are rich but unhappy. They've got everything you dream of, but they're miserable or they're lonely. And then there's people like who got nothing in the same area, but they're over the moon. Like I've seen so many kids be born. I, I generally, I've seen about good 10, 11 kids from pre birth to about 4 years old now.

[Interviewer]

It's amazing.

[Courier]

Yeah, I've literally seen the whole thing.

[Interviewer]

They kind of grown up with you

[Courier]

in a way, practically. Yeah. I just see them like, like walking their dogs. Do you want me to walk your dog for you? Oh, but you wouldn't do me a favor, would you? Well, yeah, just leave me for half an hour, bring him back. Ah, please walk their dog.

[Interviewer]

Can you think of a delivery you've done. Which you remember really fondly, but there's some like, small details of it that I have stuck with you, like either in them or round or like some quiet moment rather than a kind of a big like dramatic one.

[Courier]

This doesn't relate to what you're asking me, but it might relate to what you're asking me.

[Interviewer]

Let's try.

[Courier]

Right, so there's a property that I delivered to you up the road and I delivered her maybe once a week.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Courier]

And she's fairly new to the property, but every time, every time someone moves into the area, I try to like, welcome to the area, nice to meet you. I'm your delivery driver. For such company, if you ever need anything, just ask me and I'm happy to help. Never got anything out of her. Like never, ever said hello back. Nothing. It's just she took it and looked out. Here's what it is. She might have something going on. This one day she left her key at the door and she's gone out.

[Interviewer]

So. Key by mistake.

[Courier]

By mistake on the door lock and she's gone out. Okay, Right. And I had a parcel for her and Like, I've rung the buzzer and I'm waiting for her to come out. She hasn't come out. So I've left a note saying you've left your key. It's your delivery driver. This is my number. Give me a call when you're home. I'll come bring you it. She called me. She was panicking, like, my key. Da, da. Okay, breathe, Relax. I'm coming. It's you. The guy that's always happy. I try to be. She goes, oh, my God, you're a godsend. I go, no, no, don't be sick. He's just doing my job. Just looking out for you. She goes. Every time you ask me, how are you? I'm always busy with work. I'm really sorry. I'm like, don't worry about it. You're busy. I get it. I understand. Let her be. She went, she bought me a box of perfume, like a proper expensive one, bless her soul. And a box of chocolate. Look, thank you so much. Like, you didn't need to do that. I really appreciate it. I was like, I don't need anything in return. It's just, you know, she was, no, no, no, you don't understand what you're doing. It's a matter of trust. I can trust you now with anything.

[Interviewer]

Amazing.

[Courier]

But that's one fun memory that I've got.

[Interviewer]

So until that moment, she was just like.

[Courier]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

He didn't even acknowledge you.

[Courier]

Nothing. It's happened a couple of times. The same thing as well.

[Interviewer]

Do you think? Let's be a bit honest about this for a second. You're delivering stuff to it, as you said, like an up market area. I'm just guessing that people look at you here and just assume, just like you're billion percent, you're not in there. You know, you're in a different league. Like, we couldn't. We couldn't. Like, it's a different one.

[Courier]

Yeah, yeah. 100.

[Interviewer]

I'm guessing. You could obviously feel it, right?

[Courier]

Million percent. Yeah, but all the time that's changed.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, but only because of, like, your spirit, I guess. Like, you just proved to them time and time again. I mean, like. Yeah, I mean, how long do you think it takes you to gain someone that trust in that circumstance?

[Courier]

No, don't forget to gain. To trust. To have a full conversation.

[Interviewer]

So even just to start, even just to begin.

[Courier]

A full conversation will take about two months because they'll get the pass. Will look at you and then they'll be like, thank you. Look away and go off. They Wouldn't even acknowledge you. But once they see you all the time and then, hi, how you doing? You're right, the weather's nice. Then from there it goes to, oh, do you have something for me today? Good to see you. And then eventually it's, oh, how's your weekend been? And then from there they start telling you about their life and their problems and I know so many people's problems. Oh, my God, I know so many people's problems.

[Interviewer]

Maybe this is slightly. What's the word? Slightly Dodge. But let's go. Just don't say anyone's name.

[Courier]

No, no, no.

[Interviewer]

Obviously, what is the biggest ongoing problem that somebody has that you have to kind of keep hearing about? Do you know what I mean?

[Courier]

There's one that I feel sorry for, right? There's one that I don't feel sorry for. One of them is a lady that lives down the road, bless her soul. Her daughter is anorexic, innit? And I'm trying to help her find a way to get her food to eat. And this has been going on for about two years now, Right. Bless her soul. But the mum, she's an angel. I feel so sorry for her.

[Interviewer]

But how? Just. I mean, just. Why wouldn't she go to that?

[Courier]

She did. Oh, she's done.

[Interviewer]

It's all professional.

[Courier]

Professional. She's done everything you can name up.

[Interviewer]

Just out of interest, why. How has she come to trust you?

[Courier]

I've known her for five years.

[Interviewer]

I mean, but. I mean, but obviously I've spoken to

[Courier]

her about my life as well.

[Interviewer]

Oh, I see. I think it's, like, related to your stuff with tubes and Probably. Yeah, probably without any.

[Courier]

Like, she's probably seen me look at this. Tall, skinny, you know, he must not eat. Let me ask him, he might know something.

[Interviewer]

But do you feel pretty invested in that?

[Courier]

Yeah, 100%. Because it's. It's a thing where you don't have a choice but to be invested, because you're just going to see them again and again and again and again. So whether you like it or not, you're going to try and do whatever you can to help them, because you're going to want them to be better. Of course, yeah. She's 18. Her life is just about to start.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Courier]

You want to see her to live well and eat better and try something. Right.

[Interviewer]

That's a lot for you to take on, just like a whole other. I mean, this is like a. A deeply complex thing that you've, like,

[Courier]

suddenly you have no idea. This is just one of Many. And the other one, I've seen a guy, yeah. Cheat on his partner and he's brought another woman to the house. Okay,

[Interviewer]

yeah, yeah, let's back up, let's back up a bit.

[Courier]

So I've gone to.

[Interviewer]

Do you know who. So you know who?

[Courier]

I know both of them.

[Interviewer]

You know both of them and you know they're together.

[Courier]

I know they're together because I've seen them together many a time.

[Interviewer]

Would you know for sure? They don't have an open relationship, for instance.

[Courier]

There's only so much you can know. I don't know, I'm not going to ask.

[Interviewer]

And then. So hang on, then you've seen someone.

[Courier]

So I've seen. So the wife. Cuz they're married. Yeah. Right. She's gone on holiday and I know the wife. So now I've seen the husband with this other woman entering the house or exiting the house or walking up and down the road and I'm thinking like, why, like if, if you're gonna cheat, you might as well not be with someone.

[Interviewer]

But have they seen. They haven't. They haven't seen you.

[Courier]

Oh, he's seen me.

[Interviewer]

Oh yeah, yeah.

[Courier]

Made proper like eye contact. They're like, okay, but it's not my business, man. If it's not your business,

[Interviewer]

you know all the little windows into people's. Have you come to like. I don't know. I feel like it's quite rare you meet someone who gets to see so many different lives in one day. But maybe it's related to this area. But how do you end up feeling about just how people do their lives, you know, like you ever. Like this is just mad or like you feel like, you know, like, you know, you've seen a lot of lives on the whole. Do you think people are getting it right? Do you think you see common mistakes? You see. Do you know what I mean?

[Courier]

Yeah. Stay in school and study. That's the best advice I can give anyone. If you want a proper life either you need to have a talent. A lot of footballers that live here, a lot of musicians or a lot of doctors, lawyers. A lot of people who are very higher tier in what they do, like the best of the best. These people worked hard for what they have and deserve the life they deserve. That's how I see it.

[Interviewer]

Although some of them might have just got it from generational wealth.

[Courier]

Lucky bosses, you know. I wish I had generational wealth. I've got generational poorness. I can't blame no Kelly's life. That's one Thing, that's one thing. Teaching your kids about finances, that's one thing that these, A lot of people in this area, they do, they educate their children about finances.

[Interviewer]

You don't feel like you got that?

[Courier]

I didn't get at all. Yeah. Whatsoever. How money works, the value of money and how to spend your money.

[Interviewer]

What do you wish you learned?

[Courier]

Everything. I got none of it, unfortunately. My mum had to raise me on her own and she was restricted to what she could do. That's one thing I regret that she didn't do. Which again, I can't blame her because there was a lot on her plate. She lost her mum and dad. She left them all just to come and medicate me. So as much as she wanted to, she couldn't. And I can never blame her.

[Interviewer]

You mentioned your dad earlier. Stayed in Algeria. What happened?

[Courier]

You just never wanted to come. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And then what. But what's happened to, like. Is he alive?

[Courier]

He's alive. I just don't have a relationship with him. Yeah. It's sad because I've always wanted to have a relationship with him, but in a way, pride is not allowing me to have a relationship with him.

[Interviewer]

There's still, still time.

[Courier]

I know there's time, but it's two different worlds. I'm speaking English and he's going to speak Arabic. Right. And I, don't get me wrong, I speak Arabic and I understand it fluently. Yeah. Right. But there's only so much that we can to speak to each other about because we live a whole dramatic world. I'm a very easy guy in person. I can speak to anyone about anything and not for any type of way. But, like, do you know when your body or your mind just stops you from doing anything? That's how I feel with him. And I've tried before to reach out, to try and have a conversation, but he doesn't.

[Interviewer]

He doesn't get. He doesn't.

[Courier]

It's like you're speaking to a brick wall.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Courier]

Have you ever spoken to a brick wall? Hello. That's what you hear. They forget about it. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Is that a sadness for you? I mean, do you think about it? Yeah.

[Courier]

Because I didn't grow up with a father figure in my life. Yeah. So there's a lot of things that as a man I had to learn to do on my own, like ride a bike, shave, play football, you know, go out for a meal or like even Father's Day, get in my car, something stupid like that. Right. Or even like parents evening. It was with my mum and Then they'd ask, oh, where's the dad? And then I'd say, yeah, he's not here. It plays a massive difference, having both parents.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. I haven't asked you anything about. About romance stuff. Is there a person in your life?

[Courier]

Well, yes and no. Does that make sense?

[Interviewer]

No.

[Courier]

Okay. There is a person in my life. Right. And I've been speaking to her for what, three months?

[Interviewer]

Okay, so new, very recent. Yeah.

[Courier]

But where I've been scarred from the past.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Courier]

I haven't allowed myself to fully dive in. Right. So I've put a massive barrier to how much I can tell her and how much I can open up to her about or trust her with.

[Interviewer]

Okay, that makes sense.

[Courier]

Because as much as I want to open up to her, I'll be married and divorced. Right, in the space of two years. Oh, God.

[Interviewer]

Right, okay, that's fast.

[Courier]

It's. It's messed me up.

[Interviewer]

So that's the scar bit you're talking about.

[Courier]

That is more than a scar. That's all right.

[Interviewer]

And you're someone with legit scars as well, in your body.

[Courier]

Double up, double down or go home.

[Interviewer]

Inside, outside, full packet. Can I ask about the scars at all?

[Courier]

Yeah, of course, go ahead. I've gone over them now.

[Interviewer]

Okay, so the marriage was pretty.

[Courier]

It was beautiful until the wedding day.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Courier]

Imagine that.

[Interviewer]

I'm trying to imagine.

[Courier]

Everything about it was beautiful. The way that we met was like a Disney film.

[Interviewer]

Tell me.

[Courier]

Right, so where I live, they've got something called LTNs where they put road closures at the end of the road. They're just about to start it. So today was the last day that I can go through this one road. But again, I was working this job and this is the only day I think I've ever been late in the last six months, maybe a year. So instead of being down the road at 7:30, I was there, 8:15. Yeah. Now remember to this day, June 15th, going down the road and then she's crossed. And as she's crossed, I've had a hard break. And I've looked at her and I was like. I put my arms up, I was like, you doing. And then she looked at me, she goes, what are you doing? And I'm looking at, like thinking, this girl, is she a crackhead? Is she stupid? What's wrong with this girl? Why is she not crossing like a normal human person at the lights, right? And then like, she smirked off and she walked off. And I thought, you know what? I like her energy. I don't know why I thought, I like, I like her energy. So got out the van. I've chased her up the road. I got her. Hi, nice to meet you. I had a business card back then. This is my business card. I'm gonna end up marrying you a year later on the same day we got married.

[Interviewer]

Whoa.

[Courier]

Word for word. A year later, June 15th, we got married.

[Interviewer]

Did you choose that day? Because it was a year from that?

[Courier]

I mean. Yeah, it was a one year anniversary and I. I done it. Okay. It's gonna sound weird, I don't know if you're gonna stand it or not, but I was very religious, so.

[Interviewer]

You were very religious at that time?

[Courier]

Correct. And I wanted to follow the religious aspect of marriage.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Courier]

Right. So you can't do nothing. No kissing, no.

[Interviewer]

No, nothing.

[Courier]

Sexual intercourse? Nothing. Just straight.

[Interviewer]

Hold your hands. Fine.

[Courier]

Ideally not.

[Interviewer]

And did you uphold this?

[Courier]

Like, upholded it completely? Like, I went the full whack, yeah. Wedding day comes, it's all going lovely, lovely things happen. She has an argon with my mum, massive argument in front of everyone at the wedding hall.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Courier]

The wedding got cut off, right. And then from that day, it was hell. Nah, I wouldn't say it was hell. That's a lie. I'm not gonna lie to you. It wasn't hell. It was. It was a mixture, complicated. It was beautiful and it was tough, you know, but it was an eye opener. That's when I really learned how to be a man.

[Interviewer]

In that period after the wedding, through

[Courier]

the divorce, that's when I learned to really be a man. That's when I valued what love is, what I valued my time is. And my pieces now value my peace and my time more than anything else. Hence why I cannot open up to another person so quickly.

[Interviewer]

Okay, so obviously, just.

[Courier]

Yeah, yeah, go.

[Interviewer]

So many questions for you about that.

[Courier]

It's a story. Right?

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Courier]

My life is literally a roller coaster.

[Interviewer]

Okay, Right. So I mean, basically, can you take me through, like, how your mum and her have ended up having a big argument?

[Courier]

In Islam, we have two separate sides of the wedding. There's a female's only side and there's a men's only side because Islamically, the woman is not allowed to show her face, her hair. Sorry. Or her body. Right. Any other man apart from her husband or her dad or her brother, anyone else apart from them three is forbidden. You're not allowed. So until then, perfect. And then I've gone in at the end of the evening, have some cake, take some pictures with my mom, her mom, suddenly her dad, my Brother in law, my brother have entered the hall without anyone informing us that they're entering the women's section hall to take pictures with me. Now as they've entered, obviously there's a lot of women without the headscarf. And she was wearing the dress and you could see her upper chest right now. She's turning around and started shouting at my mum for the men coming in

[Interviewer]

because she thought that my mom initiate

[Courier]

for the to come in. And then the whole hall is full of guests and there's music playing. But as the shouting has happened, the DJ has chosen to put the volume down. As he's put the volume down, everyone's hearing the shouting going on. And then, you know, becomes pride now, like, how is this young girl shouting at my mom, man? Long story short, that's gone on and on and on and on. My mom just said, look, why are you shouting at me? Like, if you keep shouting, I'm just gonna walk out. And then she shouted again. My mom's okay, cool. She walked out.

[Interviewer]

Why has the DJ turned the music down?

[Courier]

Because people are people, you know, some people.

[Interviewer]

Surely it's got to go the other way.

[Courier]

Yeah, Life is life and life, life. Cool.

[Interviewer]

So I really did like, yeah, man. Right. Okay, so back to the argument. And you're having argument that your mom walks out.

[Courier]

Yep. So I know.

[Interviewer]

What position are you in then? What's your brain doing at that point? Like, how are you?

[Courier]

I. I swear to you not. I was just sitting there thinking, what the am I gonna do know? Do I pick my mom or do I put my wife? And as a man, that's the hardest decision you can make, right? But realistically, the right answer is your mom. Because your mom's been there for you since forever. Especially for me, obviously. So I've gone to my mom and I've told her, look, don't worry, we'll sort it out. We'll try to resolve it. So I've taken her home. Gone back home to my mom's. Yeah, man. And then I tried to get them to talk. She was stubborn. My mom was stubborn. After about a week, there was finally some communication between the two. So imagine for a whole week I'm just there trying to deal with the situation. Yeah, like the mediator hell sorted the situation, just about. We end up living together for what, a year, give or take. We went on some holidays. It was nice. But it got to the stage where the topic kept coming up and then there was no respect between her and me and my mum. So I told her Look, I tried and I picked my mum all the time, so good luck in your life.

[Interviewer]

So it was your. The divorce is your call.

[Courier]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You initiated it.

[Courier]

I initiated it.

[Interviewer]

We basically couldn't see a point where

[Courier]

once there's no respect to relationship, there's no more relationship. You could try as much as you can to fix it. It's done.

[Interviewer]

So you said earlier that you like that divorce was like a huge learning moment. Can you say why that's been the case?

[Courier]

You learn it to give your time to man, to give your love to. To give your energy to. Because money comes and goes, but your energy, you know, that takes the most out of you, especially when you're giving everyone everything. To give everyone everything is tough.

[Interviewer]

You said also. I remember the exact phrasing, but you said like I was religious then.

[Courier]

Yeah, before.

[Interviewer]

Which would imply that you don't feel the same now.

[Courier]

No.

[Interviewer]

So what does that mean?

[Courier]

My life has been a bit of a mess with everything that I've done that I told you about. And this is the first time I thought, let me try and follow God's plan.

[Interviewer]

Before you got married, before my fault.

[Courier]

Let me do it properly just to please God, so hopefully I can get what God wants me to get, which is heaven. Everyone wants to go to heaven. Whoever said doesn't want to go to heaven is practically lying to you. Right. So I tried, didn't work out. And then after I just fell out of love with religion and humans, if I'm honest with you, I just stopped caring about anyone and everything and I just did whatever I wanted to do, which is good and bad.

[Interviewer]

Where are you now with all that?

[Courier]

I'm trying to get back to God.

[Interviewer]

Somewhere in between.

[Courier]

Yeah. It's tough, man.

[Interviewer]

So with your person you're seeing, for instance, or imagine. Let's imagine you do find someone that excites you. Like, would you try and repeat the same thing you did with your ex wife? Or would you? I don't know. Do you know what I mean? How you. How you. No, no.

[Courier]

So the woman that I'm seeing now is. She's not Muslim, she's Christian. So that's a whole change in the aspect, right? Yeah. So I'm allowing myself to open up to someone based on the person that I like. Sometimes you go for looks, right. And looks is the worst thing for someone to have because they could be the most beautiful person in the world and their personality is like trash. But this time I've actually gone for personality instead of looks. So I'm going for Someone that actually gets jokes. Somebody who can hold the conversation, who can be human. Yeah. Who I can bring around and everyone can have a laugh with, go out with and feel normal, you know? I don't know, man. Love is a beautiful mess. It's a love hate relationship you have with love.

[Interviewer]

So there's a bit of promise now. There's a bit of new hope though.

[Courier]

Yeah, you could say that.

[Interviewer]

But you're just like you, you

[Courier]

just,

[Interviewer]

you're just wary about.

[Courier]

You have to though, you have to restrict yourself to how much you can off nut someone about until you feel ready to actually move forward with them.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Courier]

Because if you tell someone everything in the get go, like what we're doing here, which is nuts, I've never done this before, but just to open up someone's crazy. It's like a therapy session. Today I actually needed this.

[Interviewer]

Can you. What would be the moment where you feel like you could open up to the new person? I don't know, is it time that would sort it out or is there

[Courier]

something that God knows. Yeah. I've opened up someone once and to open up someone again, it's going to be very hard. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

What are you, you know, what are you hopeful for? For the future? What do you think you still got to like understand about yourself, you know? Do you think there's stuff you still got to work out?

[Courier]

Stop giving more for less.

[Interviewer]

Stop giving more for less.

[Courier]

Yeah. Does that make sense? Because you're going to give everything to everyone and then you get nothing in return. Not that you need anything in return, but like it's the principle of foundational, fundamentally. I'm giving you my time, I'm giving you my energy, I'm giving you my love. What am I getting out of it? Nothing.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. So you're saying like you're going to choose, choose where your energies go a

[Courier]

bit more million percent. Yeah. Like now I've got two friends, I've got two close friends and the third one is dwelling somewhere. Right. What's this third one he just did? He's roaming somewhere.

[Interviewer]

Somewhere.

[Courier]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

There's two close ones.

[Courier]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

What do you look for in a friend? It sounds like obviously you are someone who. You're really a friendly person.

[Courier]

People know me but it's. They don't know me. Like, they know, oh, yeah, that's that guy who does this and that. But they don't actually know the person. They don't value the time to want to know the person.

[Interviewer]

So what you're saying is the two close friends do know yeah, yeah.

[Courier]

I've known them for over 20 years.

[Interviewer]

That's a long time. 20 years, yeah.

[Courier]

Yeah. I've seen them go through a lot.

[Interviewer]

Amazing.

[Courier]

It's life, is it? It's what makes us us. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So you were friends for 20 years, these two people?

[Courier]

Yep.

[Interviewer]

I have to think like, good friendship should be the model for like good romantic relationships as well. Sometimes, you know, if you think like what, what I mean by that is like, how have you maintained such a good friendship with these experience. These people for such a long time experiences.

[Courier]

They've been there for me when I was going through hell and back and I was there for them when they're going through hell and back. And sometimes the person who, who you don't think you need the most is the person who you value the most. So obviously they're my best friends and I didn't think I need them that much. And I was going through what I was going through, but in reality it was them who helped me become sane again. I was going down a bad, bad hole.

[Interviewer]

What, after divorce?

[Courier]

Yeah. Yeah, very bad hole. But good people bring you back to normality, you know, and sometimes you gotta step back to move forward. That's how it was. There's a saying that we have. It's called charge it to the game, to the game of life. So if anything ever happens, say you, I don't know, break a leg or your car breaks down, or you drop your food or whatever, just charge it to the game of life. It is what it is.

[Interviewer]

I like that. Charge it to the game.

[Courier]

Charge it to the game, man.

[Interviewer]

So let's do looking forward. What would you like to happen in your life that hasn't happened?

[Courier]

I've got a business venture I want to get into. It's going to take time, but time is beautiful because it's knowledge. Because you get to learn about the fundamentals of what you need to learn about to make the business better. But realistically, you have to live in your own means. It's one of simple, peaceful life. I'm honest with you, don't really ask for much. Simple, happy, peaceful life. Easy.

[Interviewer]

Few more peaceful Tuesdays.

[Courier]

A lot more peaceful Tuesdays. I like that. Peaceful Tuesdays.

[Interviewer]

I forgot to ask, and I should have asked about being a courier. Like, what do people not know about the realities of this life?

[Courier]

The password. Yeah, I wake up at 5am in the morning. This is now, because it's Ramadan, because I'm fasting. Right. So realistically, I wake up at six in the morning.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Courier]

I Get to the depot for 7am I start loading my van in the rain like today. And however you see the parcel is, however I get the parcel. So if the parcel comes broken, it's because I've got it broken. I don't pick it up and see, smash it on the floor. No, for the company I work with, because I'm self employed, I get two days off a month, so that means weekends away, all of that, you know, that you dream about, you know, a little trip here and there, forget about it. And Christmas time, we're finishing at 10, 11 o' clock every day. And Christmas time, for example, I work six weeks without a day off, so it's a tough gig. And then don't ask stupid questions. Who is it for? What's the name on the parcel? You know it's for you. Yeah, we give you a time slot of when we're coming, you get an email when we're coming. And I'm sure you've heard my voice for the last six years, so I know you know it's me. Then it stresses me out so much that, hey, I got delivery. Who's it for? For I goes for you. Yeah, but who is it for? I go, you saw me yesterday, you saw me day before yesterday, you're probably going to see me tomorrow. Honestly, it's the best worst job you ever have, I swear to God.

[Interviewer]

Best because you get to.

[Courier]

It's best because it's fun, man. You know, you can be your own self, have a laugh of everyone, but

[Interviewer]

also look you, it sounds like you bring as much magic as you possibly can do to it. You turn up and you, you smile at people and you like clearly people.

[Courier]

For my own sanity, honestly, for my own sanity. Because if I walk around miserable, I'm going to be miserable. And people buy people's energy. Positive energy brings positive life, brings happiness, brings whatever you want.

[Interviewer]

I'm gonna ask you three more questions. I'm gonna leave you alone.

[Courier]

3.

[Interviewer]

What is this beautiful sight you've seen recently? Just like with your own eyes that going around, where have you been? That is something that stayed with you.

[Courier]

Yeah. It's gonna sound like something silly, right? And it's something that you see on a normal day, everyday basis. Just seeing people walking their dogs or just, you know, just. It's the little things. It's not about the big things. It's because the little things, they're the things that make the big things. But like I'll see someone just walking their dog like this little wave that, that means more Than a lot, if that makes any sense. It's a little. Little things.

[Interviewer]

That's beautiful.

[Courier]

Like I said earlier, less is more. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

What if you could bring back one thing that you've lost, but it can't be a person? What would you bring back?

[Courier]

It's a good question.

[Interviewer]

Thanks.

[Courier]

See, I want to say it's time, but that don't make sense because you can't bring back your time. It's done. I want to see my sanity, but then I look. That's made me who I am now. I would say my trust, but it's allowed me to trust the people I trust now and not anyone else who I don't want to trust anymore or open up to.

[Interviewer]

Could be an object. Your favourite mug? You got a favourite mug?

[Courier]

No, I don't, actually. I should have one, though.

[Interviewer]

That's alright. You answered the question quite well. It's just a complicated question.

[Courier]

Yeah, yeah. It's a good question.

[Interviewer]

What are you doing in your life when you feel most free?

[Courier]

Watching Arsenal play.

[Interviewer]

Ah, okay.

[Courier]

Yeah, man. Football. Football. I love my football. Love my Arsenal. That's the only time where I can get away from reality. It's wins, losses, draws. I know for 90 minutes I can zone away from all my problems and enjoy whatever's happening. Obviously, it's a roller coaster of emotions, but right now we're doing pretty well, so I can't complain, you know, Top of the League. Top of the League, mate. Yeah, man. Football.

[Interviewer]

Like, what will you do if Arsenal win the League? How would you celebrate?

[Courier]

I don't normally lose my head, I'll be honest with you, but I know.

[Interviewer]

Can you put an Arsenal flag on the van?

[Courier]

100 billion. I'll put it on the dashboard. No. Make sure people know I'll be walking around.

[Interviewer]

Take your horn all through the night.

[Courier]

Yeah. I live near Tottenham.

[Interviewer]

Yeah? Oh, worse.

[Courier]

Oh, yes. Even better.

[Interviewer]

They're gonna love that.

[Courier]

Love it, mate. Love it.

[Interviewer]

Okay, penultimate question, because we're in a. This. Because we are in the back of a van and sometimes I get people to, like, look out if we're on a bench and say like, you know, what can we see? And like, how does this make you feel? But sometimes, also, when that is where we don't have a particularly good view or no view, then I get people to close their eyes. So we're going to close our eyes now and I'm going to ask you to come kind of like think back to a moment or room, a place in your life which you feel you can describe in the Most detail. It could be like a mundane thing. It doesn't have to be a dramatic, dramatic event. What was that? Is that right?

[Courier]

Yeah, someone opened the door.

[Interviewer]

Oh, to the front. Oh, I just had. I didn't know. Oh, yeah, yeah. But it wasn't. Yeah, no, it could have been driven off. That could have been the most exciting bench moment yet. In the back of a. Back of a van. Just driven off.

[Courier]

Sorry.

[Interviewer]

What? That's all right. Sorry.

[Courier]

It's happened to me before actually. What?

[Interviewer]

Someone's just trying to drive the van off while you're in it.

[Courier]

Someone's stolen the van from me.

[Interviewer]

Christ. Yeah, I feel everyone's after these parcels, right? Literally they're valuable.

[Courier]

Yeah. Sorry, man.

[Interviewer]

But where were. Yeah, sorry. Right, right. So like, think thinking back, yeah. To a scene in your life. Like, it's just for whatever reason, you really remember that scene and that moment. Just to think of that, what was around you in the details and describing it.

[Courier]

I was in Thailand in Phuket, and it was about three in the morning when I was sitting there alone on the beach. And it was just absolute silence. And you just hear the waves, you know, and you just, you look around, there's no one there and it's just peaceful. The stars were out, the moon was shining. You could see the reflection on the waves. The water and the sea was warm. And I think it was at that point in my life I felt at peace for the first time in what years? That's when I realized that my self worth is the most important thing because whatever's happened has happened. Whatever is written for me is written for me. And right now I'm happy. Everything about that was just perfect.

[Interviewer]

Beautiful. Why was it 3am out of interest?

[Courier]

I probably licked off my head some entirely at that point.

[Interviewer]

That's why it's so serene.

[Courier]

That's why it was perfect.

[Interviewer]

I love it. Fantastic. Well, it reached the end. Thanks for talking to me.

[Courier]

Thank you for having me.

[Interviewer]

This is, this is, you know, memorable one. Back of a van.

[Courier]

Yeah, this is, you know.

[Interviewer]

There you go. Okay, last question for you. What are you going to do next?

[Courier]

Finish off the parcels that literally got a password to finish up and then we're going to go home and break my fast but live, you know, does that make sense?

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Courier]

I'm gonna live. Like, I'm really gonna live. I've been alive, but now I'm gonna live. I'm going to live life to the max. Like I lived with a lot of restriction or like a lot of barriers that I've set myself and a lot of people sit on me. But now there's no more. Now it's just going out there. I'm taking everything and doing everything. Yeah, man.

[Interviewer]

Beautiful. Well, thank you so much.

[Courier]

Thank you, man. Thank you.

[Interviewer]

Sorry for breaking up the. The parcel tonight.

[Courier]

I mean, this is part of the journey, you know. I'm just gonna charge it to the game.

[Background Singer]

Mother knows best Mother knows best Postman cowboy Ties his own tie Boy bout to die, boy Mother knows best? Bright golden rose? Keep strangers as friends Try to be happy to be on time? Life is for living or so they say? I feel your breath Every word that gets away? Mother knows best Mother knows best

[Courier]

A

[Background Singer]

postman cowboy Ties his own tie Boy about to die, boy Mother knows best. I am so lucky to even be around? Could be a line in the paper Left wet on the ground? Oh, friends say it's hard when you're close to the end I've no fear of dying I've shook its hand? Mother knows best Mother knows best? Postman cowboy Ties his own tie Boy didn't die, boy. His mother knew Birds

[Courier]

sa.