EPISODE 89: I Am What I Am

Summary

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Strangers on a Bench – Episode 89: "I Am What I Am"

Host: Tom Rosenthal
Date: May 25, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this moving and honest conversation, Tom Rosenthal sits beside an anonymous, nearly 80-year-old bench-dweller on Hampstead Heath. The episode explores the subject’s life as a retired writer, their upbringing after WWII, experiences with gender identity, and reflections on aging, loss, resilience, and the enduring importance of play. The discussion delves deeply into the complexities of being transgender across the decades, the healing power of creativity, and the beauty found in everyday joys.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Rhythm of Retirement and Small Joys

• Days with Structure: The guest organizes the week by assigning specific activities for each day, including grocery orders and walks on Hampstead Heath. (01:21)
• Joy in Small Decisions: Describes a “wild” recent decision to buy Biscoff biscuits after spontaneously remembering their taste. (01:47–02:16)
  • Quote: “If any day isn't lovely, it's down to me.” — Guest (01:05)
• Importance of Routine & Observation: Same walking route is never boring, because nature’s small changes are always noticed, especially in spring. (02:52–03:09)

2. Reflections on Aging, Illness, and Family

• On Aging: The guest, nearly 80, candidly addresses the physical and emotional realities of old age, including reduced capability after illness (sepsis). (03:31)
  • Quote: “When you get old, illness isn't like it was when you were young... Where you end up after the illness is not where you were before.” — Guest (03:29)
• Family Loss: Grew up right after WWII with a large family; now only one sister remains. The passing of siblings (and the emotional relief from a bullying brother) is discussed honestly. (05:17–06:43)
• Difficult Parental Relationships: Mother’s favoritism and lack of protection are remembered, adding to childhood isolation. (06:57–07:29)
  • Quote: “I think my mother liked my brother better than she liked me, so that's complicated, isn't it? I think I was her least favourite child.” — Guest (06:57)

3. Marriage, Estrangement & Personal Growth

• Marriage Born of Wrong Reasons: The guest recalls marrying at 30 (1976), mostly for “the sex,” but both soon realized the relationship was mismatched and treatments for infertility were emotionally destructive. (09:58–11:10)
  • Quote: “The fertility treatments seemed to be designed to either make you have children or break up the marriage.” — Guest (10:10)
• Turning to Writing: Post-divorce, the guest found solace and expression in writing, particularly transgender fiction. (11:28–12:00)

4. Identity, Gender, and the Changing World

• Early Gender Awareness: Felt always “belonged with the girls,” recounts junior school playground games with girls and later writing transgender fiction before it was mainstream. (12:46–13:52)
• Limited Opportunity to Transition: Only discovered full medical transition was possible at 30, by which time life circumstances (age, poverty) made it unattainable. (14:13–15:07)
  • Quote: “I didn't know that it was possible to fully transition till I was about 30. I mean, which is kind of leaving it a bit late...” — Guest (14:13)
• Social Isolation & Stigma: Never felt able to talk about gender identity with others, including spouse. Clothing choices now embrace femininity. (17:14–18:09)
• Play and Creativity as Coping Tools: Fills life with imaginative play (collecting and photographing dolls), which represent both play and connection to a longed-for life. (18:24–20:27)
  • Quote: “Life is too short for boring clothes.” — Guest (18:12)
• Acceptance vs. Madness: Addresses how play with dolls might be perceived as “madness,” but insists on its wholesome, playful nature. (21:05–21:11)

5. Mental Health and Recovery

• Twenties as a Struggle: Openly discusses time in mental hospitals, depression, and how gender dysphoria, misunderstood and inexpressible at the time, contributed. (21:18–21:52)
• The Power of Creative Focus: Painting a deck of tarot cards and learning Middle Egyptian both served as crucial, hands-on paths to mental recovery. (22:22–24:14)
  • Quote: “It was an exercise, both a mental exercise... and also a physical exercise of controlling my hands sufficiently to paint them.” — Guest (22:47)

6. Transgender Life: Past, Present, and the World’s Response

• Transphobic Violence: Recounts two painful episodes — one at Kennington tube, another near home — and how violence and societal rejection shaped self-presentation. (25:07–28:31)
  • Quote: “People don't like the other, do they? If you appear to be other, people will blame you for whatever is wrong in their lives.” — Guest (27:05)
• Seeking Acceptance: Wishes people understood that “that person is just trying to be the person that they are, and they need acceptance.” (27:39)
• The Changing (and Contentious) Debate: Notes that, paradoxically, it feels more controversial to be transgender now than decades ago, attributing it to a climate of blame. (29:18–29:34)
  • Quote: “I think people feel that the world is going wrong for them more than they did, and they're looking for people to blame, basically.” — Guest (29:34)

7. Writing, Play, and the Value of Imagination

• Current Writing: Now writes age regression and spanking fiction, not always by choice but to keep mentally active and meet publisher demand. (30:17–31:23)
• Desk Details & Doll Collection: Gives a playful tour of a child-sized desk, “up on bricks,” scattered with a vast array of tiny doll shoes. (31:27–31:57)
• Imagination’s Lifelong Role: Finds parallels between a child’s imaginative play with dolls and their own, using play to imagine lives unlived. (32:45–33:44)
  • Quote: “So the dolls represent girls who are considerably older than her and actually represent her future life. And for me... they can be a life that I haven't actually had, would have liked to have had.” — Guest (32:45–33:44)

8. Acceptance of Limitations, Hope, and Finding Connection

• Possibility of Further Transition: Expresses some regret about not transitioning but worries about health risks of hormones at age 80. (33:49–34:04)
• Finding Community: Opened to Tom’s encouragement to seek out groups for older trans people for shared experience and support. (34:09–35:09)

9. Everyday Joys and Cherished Memories

• Finding Joy in Mundane Successes: Recounts the relief and happiness of getting a blocked toilet fixed after four frustrating days. (35:42–36:58)
  • Quote: “That is the joy of the flushing toilet.” — Guest (36:58)
• Music and Dance: Still dances while washing up, a habit from decades of social dancing. (37:01–37:30)
• Favorite Memories: Finds nostalgic happiness in recollecting Sunday tea dances at The Bell, a joyful, accepting queer space. (38:49–39:56)
  • Quote: “It was a celebration, a celebration of diversity. Particularly if you were going to be exuberant.” — Guest (39:56)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Responsibility in Old Age:
  “If any day isn't lovely, it's down to me.” — Guest (01:05)
• On Transition:
  “I didn't know that it was possible to fully transitioned till I was about 30. I mean, which is kind of leaving it a bit late.” — Guest (14:13)
• On Having No One to Confide In:
  “I talked about it to my wife before we were married. But no, I hadn't talked about it to anyone else. Yeah, it's kind of lonely...” — Guest (17:47)
• On Play:
  “Life is too short for boring clothes.” — Guest (18:12)
• On Surviving Violence:
  “People don't like the other, do they? If you appear to be other, people will blame you for whatever is wrong in their lives.” — Guest (27:05)
• On Empathy and Acceptance:
  “That person is just trying to be the person that they are, and they need acceptance and just want to be another.” — Guest (27:39)
• On Rebuilding After Depression:
  “Painting a tarot pack... [was] both a mental exercise... and also a physical exercise of controlling my hands sufficiently to paint them.” — Guest (22:47)
• On Joys Big and Small:
  “That is the joy of the flushing toilet.” — Guest (36:58)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• Beginnings and Weekly Routine: 00:49–03:31
• Family Dynamics and Childhood: 05:17–07:29
• Marriage and Its Troubles: 07:41–11:10
• Transgender Identity, Isolation, and Clothing: 12:46–18:17
• Doll Collection & Playfulness: 18:24–21:11, 31:27–33:44
• Experience with Mental Health: 21:18–24:14
• Transphobic Violence & Society’s Response: 25:07–29:34
• Current Creative Life: 30:17–31:57
• Nostalgic Memories and Finding Community: 38:49–39:56
• Closing Reflections, Future Hopes: 33:49–35:09, 40:41–41:56

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Closing Sentiment

This openhearted episode beautifully embodies the podcast’s ethos: revealing the poetry, pain, and potential in everyday lives. With warmth and humor, Tom gently uncovers how this anonymous stranger navigated loss, gender identity, and loneliness—yet continues to seek joy, indulge in play, and look for connection in a world not always ready to reciprocate. The episode finishes with the guest looking forward to a walk, a photo shoot with beloved dolls, and—possibly—buying a trifle to celebrate a hard-won 80th birthday.

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Final Thought:
“I am what I am, and you don't understand what that is. I am something much bigger than this body...” — (42:32, closing song/poem)

Transcript

[A]

Hello. Sorry to bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers On A Bench, where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a. Do you have a favourite day of the week?

[B]

I like Mondays and Thursdays because they're the days I come to Hampstead. But some of the other days I spend a lot of time writing and I like those as well, so I

[A]

think they're all lovely for you too.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I'm retired, so if any day isn't lovely, it's down to me.

[A]

I like it. Yeah. You're taking full responsibility of your days. So why would you come to Hampstead Heath on a Monday and say not a Tuesday?

[B]

I like to give my week a shape. Like on Wednesday I receive the grocery order and on Tuesday is the day I finalise the grocery order. I do a stock check of our food.

[A]

When was the last time you made a wild decision on there? Do you. I'm just suddenly going to get this.

[B]

Maybe a month ago when I decided to buy some Biscoff biscuits.

[A]

Just went wild for the Biscoff.

[B]

Well, for no reason that I could imagine, I suddenly remember what Biscoff biscuits tasted like and I thought, I haven't had those for years.

[A]

So what were you doing that made you think of Biscoff? Did you see an advert for Biscoff? Is that what.

[B]

No, no, there was no advert. Just some stream of consciousness.

[A]

Fantastic. And when you finally tasted the Biscoff, did it.

[B]

Yeah, they tasted it exactly as I remembered. Yeah. When they arrived, I cut open the packet and ate one and then I ate another one. Because they're the kind of one isn't enough.

[A]

That's true. I'm very naughty. I end up eating the whole pack. I can't stop myself.

[B]

But you can. I don't eat the whole pack.

[A]

You could just.

[B]

Well, eventually I eat the whole pack, but not in one sitting.

[A]

So, Mondays on the heath. What are we doing on Mondays on the heath, normally?

[B]

Well, I do the same walk each time. It sounds boring, but it isn't because I'm looking at the same thing. Time after time, I notice all the little changes.

[A]

That's lovely.

[B]

Which at this time of year, there are a lot.

[A]

Because it's spring.

[B]

Yes, because it's spring. But I mean, even at any season, there's always something is different. The route is designed so that I do one hill, which I think I need for exercise. And I used to do three hills

[A]

years ago and now we're down to one.

[B]

Down to one.

[A]

We're still going strong. We've still got this one hill.

[B]

Yeah, I mean the three hills was before I had sepsis and was ill for quite a long time. And when you get old, illness isn't like it was when you were young. When you're young, you take a few days off and you're back to where you were as you get old. Where you end up after the illness is not where you were before.

[A]

How do you feel about being old? You mean you count yourself as old?

[B]

Yes, I do. In about three months I'll be 80.

[A]

Well, happy birthday in advance. Let's make it a birthday party.

[B]

I mean that, that is old, isn't it?

[A]

Well, you know, you still got your

[B]

hill, I've still got my hill.

[A]

As long as you've got your hill, you've got a semblance of youth. How are you going to celebrate on the day? What are you going to do?

[B]

I don't know, probably won't do anything. Probably do what I would do anyway.

[A]

No, no, I'm not going to allow. We're going to celebrate.

[B]

Yes, I suppose.

[A]

What do you dream of doing? What would be a thing you haven't done that you might like to do?

[B]

What haven't I done in my life? There's a lot of things I've done in my life that I'm glad not to have done. But I really don't know. I have to think about it nearer the time.

[A]

Is there anyone you'd like to share your birthday with?

[B]

Well, yeah, maybe my sister. I used to have three sisters and a brother. Now I've got a sister. That's one of the things about going old. The people you used to know are dead. A lot of them all gone. Well, no, I still got one.

[A]

Don't forget that one sister on. Okay. The sister.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I don't see her all that often because we don't live near to each other.

[A]

So you grew up with lots of siblings?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

What was that like?

[B]

Well, I was born just after the war and I had three siblings who were born before the war. There was a big age gap. While my dad was Hitler's guest, he was prisoner of war. So it was like my elder siblings were grown ups. Well, they weren't, but to someone as young as I was, they were.

[A]

So they were on a bit of the same team.

[B]

Yeah, I mean one of my sisters wanted to mother me, one wanted to ignore me and My brother wanted to bully me. Well, did bully me.

[A]

Did your brother stop bullying you at some point?

[B]

Not really.

[A]

Oh, dear.

[B]

He's dead now.

[A]

Okay. Well, at least he can't believe you now.

[B]

No, he can't.

[A]

How did you feel about it when he died?

[B]

I didn't really feel anything much. Maybe a little bit of relief.

[A]

Did anyone come to your rescue during the bullying times? Did you feel like you were kind of on your own with it?

[B]

I felt I was on my own. Oh.

[A]

Why was that, do you think?

[B]

I don't know. I mean, my mother should have intervened, but she didn't. I think my mother liked my brother better than she liked me, so that's complicated, isn't it? I think I was her least favourite child.

[A]

Why do you think she. Why do you say that?

[B]

Well, if she had stuff to pass on to her children, I would be near the end of the line.

[A]

Did he get anything from Mother?

[B]

Well, I mean, sort of birthday and Christmas presents, I guess. I got a wedding present. I can't even remember what it was. I can remember what some other people gave me, but not to. What? My parents.

[A]

As a wedding present?

[B]

As a wedding.

[A]

When you got married?

[B]

When I got married.

[A]

When did you get married?

[B]

I got married at the age of 30 in 1976.

[A]

How did that go?

[B]

Not brilliantly.

[A]

The wedding day or the marriage?

[B]

Well, the wedding day. I don't know. I mean, my wife became very drunk and we had a great deal of difficulty in reviving her sufficiently to go on the honeymoon. Oh, God.

[A]

Even to go on the honeymoon.

[B]

We went off later.

[A]

Oh, I see.

[B]

In the night, in the same day.

[A]

How did you revive her?

[B]

I think someone forced her to eat bread. I was quite drunk myself. I wasn't that drunk.

[A]

And did you make the honeymoon?

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Okay, good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where did you go?

[B]

A place called Arnside. I think it's three stops on the train from Lancaster where we were living.

[A]

And you kept it humble?

[B]

Yes, yes, yes. The honeymoon was in a hotel called the Fighting Cocks. Now, you couldn't make that up, could you?

[A]

Did you fight?

[B]

No, we didn't.

[A]

Oh, that's good. Do you remember anything about this hotel?

[B]

Huge breakfast. My wife was quite incensed, though, because she, as a woman, got two eggs and I got three. And I said, did you actually want three eggs? And she said, no, but I can see the point.

[A]

Oh, dear. Egg discrepancy there.

[B]

I mean, it wasn't just three eggs. There was. There was everything.

[A]

Yeah, the whole package.

[B]

There was a sort of pyramid of food.

[A]

I mean. Yeah. How did the marriage go, then? Do you think it was a good idea to get married?

[B]

I'm not sure. I think that both of us were married for the wrong reason.

[A]

What was your reason? What was hers?

[B]

The sex and the.

[A]

Was that yours or hers?

[B]

What? Oh, well, both of us. And, yeah, I mean, the sort of reasons that we got married were sort of reasons that past.

[A]

I see what you mean. There was a lustful connection, but not necessarily.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also the big thing was she turned out to have fertility problems. And the fertility treatments seemed to be designed to either make you have children or break up the marriage. For example, the doctors got us to put little X's on the chart for when we had sex, which made me, and I probably heard, feel as if there were doctors looking over our shoulder. Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, that kind of destroyed a lot.

[A]

Oh, dear. Yeah, I can see how that might happen. And so I'm guessing that it didn't work out kid wise.

[B]

No, we were together, I think, for about 10 years.

[A]

And then. How did you rebuild? What was it from there?

[B]

How did I rebuild? Well, eventually I got a bedsit in Southend, which was the town where I come from originally, and I started writing quite a lot and I found a publisher who wanted transgender fiction, which I wrote quite a lot and got paid intermittently.

[A]

What is transgender fiction?

[B]

Out of interest, based on transgender characters. Yeah.

[A]

And this is.

[B]

When was it.

[A]

When were you writing about this?

[B]

In the 80s, I suppose. Yeah.

[A]

So you've always written about transgender?

[B]

I. I haven't. I mean, that was when I started writing about it. Oh, okay. I have. There you are. On my fleece. There's a little transgender flag.

[A]

Oh, lovely.

[B]

So that was another complication in my life.

[A]

Tell me more.

[B]

Well, I've always felt that I belonged with the girls. When I was at junior school, at playtime, I used to play with the girls. I used to play fairies and witches, which was a good game.

[A]

What happened in Fairies and Witches, can I ask?

[B]

Well, to start with, all but one of the players was a fairy and one was a witch. And there was two areas on opposite sides of the playground with safe places and the fairies would congregating those and the witch would kind of foretold outside, and then someone would make a break for it to get to the other safe area and the witch would have to grab somebody. After they were grabbed, they would be changed from being a fairy to being a witch.

[A]

Ok, I see.

[B]

Yeah. It's a game of the tag family. It was A very noisy game.

[A]

How do the girls feel having you?

[B]

I don't know. At the time, I mean, it felt. It felt normal. Felt normal to me. I don't know what the girls thought.

[A]

So this is an area that's always been of interest to you in your life?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Do you feel like you've been able to explore it fully? I mean, what's.

[B]

Well, I've never fully transitioned. I didn't know that it was possible to fully transitioned till I was about 30. I mean, which is kind of leaving it a bit late. And also, it's not cheap and not easy, and I've been poor for most of my life. This is another thing. I mean, almost all the work I've had has been poorly paid work that's more often done by women than men. That wasn't a plan on my part, but somehow my first job was a library assistant, and my last job was working for victim support. And in between then, I was a care worker, a cleaner at one time, and all sorts of things.

[A]

What job has meant the most to you out of those, or do you look back with most fondly?

[B]

You know, I'm not sure that I look back on any of them very fondly. The victim support is something that you. You get burnt out.

[A]

So these are victims of what?

[B]

Victims of crime.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

The worst thing that. I mean, the worst thing personally was there was a victim of child abuse in Welsh Care Home, and the. The police wanted to interview him for a statement and they needed an independent witness, and I was sent in to be the independent witness, and the interview went on for literally hours. And it was the most grueling thing to hear. I couldn't intervene in any way. And that. That. That. That takes a lot out of you, that.

[A]

Obviously the landscape in the transgender world has shifted longer than the last.

[B]

It has.

[A]

50 years, I guess. Right. So when you say you were 30 and you realized it was too late to transition, at what stage were we at in terms of transgender life? You say? Yeah, 50 years ago.

[B]

So very heavily clotted, I would say.

[A]

As in, what does that mean? You mean you wanted to transition?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But you didn't feel like it was possible?

[B]

Didn't feel like it was possible. Didn't feel that anyone around me would be accepting. It felt very lonely.

[A]

Is this whilst you're married?

[B]

Before and during.

[A]

Can I ask what your partner thought about this?

[B]

Yeah, that was another trouble. She thought that it was just something trivial that I. I would get out of my system and.

[A]

But it wasn't?

[B]

No, it's something fundamental about how you are.

[A]

It's.

[B]

Yeah. I don't think she ever understood that.

[A]

Did anyone around that time understand you, like, did you have anyone that you could talk to?

[B]

No.

[A]

No, not one.

[B]

I talked about it to my wife before we were married. But no, I hadn't talked about it to anyone else. Yeah, it's kind of lonely, but if you look at me now and you see what I'm wearing. Everything is I'm wearing is actually women's clothing. This is actually a woman's blouse.

[A]

Looks great.

[B]

Women's trousers.

[A]

It's a great look.

[B]

It's a great look. Life is too short for boring clothes.

[A]

That's so right.

[B]

Yeah. Come to Hampstead Heath to play with dolls.

[A]

Fantastic. Okay, tell me about these dolls. So you.

[B]

Yeah, I've got two with me. Let me introduce you to them.

[A]

Oh, here they are.

[B]

Here they are. This one is Samantha.

[A]

Hi, Samantha.

[B]

Now, Samantha is my favourite and my bag buddy. I always have her with me.

[A]

What is it about Samantha that you feel connected to?

[B]

I don't know. There's just something about her. It's like people. You can't really say why you take to one person and not to another. But the other one is Lavinia. Lavinia is named after the person I bought her from. And Lavinia is part of my dull rock and roll brand, Cindian Mutiny. The greatest rock and roll plant in the world. I bet they are.

[A]

I bet they are.

[B]

They are. And.

[A]

And you've got how many now?

[B]

200 and odd. I don't know the exact statistics.

[A]

Is there a limit? Is it?

[B]

I mean, that is. I've reached the limit.

[A]

That's it. And they're all in your house?

[B]

They're all in my bedroom.

[A]

Wow. How are they all arranged?

[B]

Well, there's a shelf above my bed that I put up myself. Now, I'm not a handy person. It's actually kept up roughly on the principle of a suspension bridge. There's nails in the wall and string and support.

[A]

As long as it stays up. That's the thing.

[B]

It stays up and that's absolutely fine.

[A]

Full of dolls, one on top of another.

[B]

How's that? No, no, they're all standing up on their own feet. Some of them have bendy knees, so they can.

[A]

Oh, that's handy.

[B]

They can sit on the edge of shelves and I've got a set of shells that are full of them on doll stands.

[A]

So it's a whole world of play with these dolls.

[B]

It's a whole world of play.

[A]

Oh, that's wonderful. I mean, look, the obvious thing to say is. I mean, it's. It's lovely to hear you talk about it. I mean, is this. You know, I'm guessing you didn't get a chance to play with dolls as a kid.

[B]

Not much. My youngest sister, the one who's still alive, she didn't much care for dolls.

[A]

Does your sister, the younger sister now, does she know about your doll collection?

[B]

She does. Well, I don't know if she knows how big it is, but she has been with me when I've photographed dolls, so, yes.

[A]

So, what does she think?

[B]

I have no idea. I think she thinks I'm mad.

[A]

But do you think you're mad?

[B]

No, I don't think I'm mad.

[A]

I agree. I don't think you're mad at all.

[B]

I think I have been mad, but I don't think I'm mad now.

[A]

When were you mad?

[B]

In my twenties.

[A]

Why was that? Can you say?

[B]

I was in and out of mental hospitals around that time and certainly suffering from depression.

[A]

Why were that time in particular?

[B]

I think it was gender dysphoria, that sense of being trapped in an agenda to which I didn't belong. That it's a big deal. I never spoke to it about the. That. To the psychiatrists or anything.

[A]

Is that because you feared what they would say?

[B]

I don't think I had the vocabulary to talk about it. And in any case, I didn't trust them.

[A]

Yeah. How did you kind of come out of that loop, then?

[B]

How did I come out of that?

[A]

Well, what point did you emerge from it?

[B]

Yeah, I actually did a lot of deliberate efforts to get myself back into shape. One of the things I did was to paint a tarot pack.

[A]

As in tarot cards?

[B]

As in tarot cards, yeah.

[A]

And you painted it yourself?

[B]

I designed them and painted them myself.

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

It was an exercise, both a mental exercise of being able to think about the design and the symbolism and also a physical exercise of controlling my hands sufficiently to paint them.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because it's quite. Yes.

[A]

It's intricate.

[B]

I mean, they're actually fairly big for cards, but they're still very small for paintings.

[A]

Do you still have that pack?

[B]

I've still got it somewhere.

[A]

So that act of making that pack of cards really helped turn a corner.

[B]

Yeah. Another thing I did was to teach myself Middle Egyptian, the classical language of ancient Egypt.

[A]

And you taught yourself that?

[B]

Yeah, from Gardener's Egyptian Grammar.

[A]

Oh, amazing.

[B]

Which is a big book.

[A]

Wow. How long did that take you to learn?

[B]

I think maybe a year. Two years. And that also was the same thing. Obviously, it's a mental thing of learning a language and a language that isn't very much like English, but there's also a thing with the hands of actually doing little pictures of birds and things, which is quite fiddly.

[A]

Amazing. So these two acts really helped you emerge?

[B]

Yeah, those two things really got me back.

[A]

Amazing, yeah. Do you feel kind of any sense of anger kind of at the world that you were born, when you were born? I mean, do you ever think, well, if I was born 20, 30 years later?

[B]

Yeah. Well, certainly if I've been born, say, 50 years later, I would definitely have transitioned. No, I'm not angry about that. It's just the way things are.

[A]

How do you think your life would have been? You know, I know it's a slightly painful question, but imagine if you were born 50 years later, so that would make you 30 now.

[B]

I'm not certain that it would have been any better.

[A]

Yeah, but is that. Why do you say that?

[B]

Because it wouldn't have been easy. It would never have been easy. Isn't easy even now, now?

[A]

And,

[B]

I mean, I was twice the victim of transphobic violence, and I think if I were born 50 years later, it might have been more than twice.

[A]

When were those incidences?

[B]

One of them was in Kennington tube station. There's a lot of underground passages and there was this group of young men who were sort of jostling me.

[A]

And how old were you at the time?

[B]

Oh, goodness. Forties, I think. No, maybe in my 50s. I used to dress more femininely than I am now. I mean, just what I'm wearing now

[A]

is sort of quite light.

[B]

So. No, I was actually wearing a skirt at the time, and I don't remember much about it because I think they must have pushed me, bashed my head against the wall of the passage and I fell unconscious. I suspect that they kicked me when I was on the floor, but I have no memory of that. And the second one was just around the corner where I was living at the time, and I was set upon by about eight men.

[A]

Why do you think they had such a kind of desire to do that to you?

[B]

People don't like the other, do they? If you appear to be other people will blame you for whatever is wrong in their lives. It happens all the time. It's still happening.

[A]

And what would you like people, let's imagine someone's listening to this, has never encountered a transgender individual.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What would you like them to understand

[B]

that that person is just trying to Be the person that they are, and they need acceptance and just want to be another.

[A]

And so did these events, you know, when they obviously must have shaken you once?

[B]

Well, yeah.

[A]

Shake you into pulling back from it at all? Did you. Well, did you go harder? Did you. How did you respond?

[B]

The first one I carried on as I have been, really. The second one was much more dangerous because it was just around the corner from where I lived.

[A]

I see. So you saw such a fear happening again.

[B]

That really did. And only now am I coming out again more than I was. But, you see, I've got this little badge with a transgender flag on my fleet, and, you know, that's saying, I'm here. I am what I am, and. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, there's so much heat. They're kind of transgendered. I don't know what you want to call it. People call it a debate.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They call it a.

[B]

Well, yeah. I mean, it's become very controversial.

[A]

It has, isn't it? Yeah. I feel like when I was younger, it was less controversial than it is now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Can you try and explain that?

[B]

I think people feel that the world is going wrong for them more than they did, and they're looking for people to blame, basically.

[A]

So how does it. Does it. I mean, how do you cope now with it all, as you know, I mean, all the kind of. The fervor.

[B]

I don't have much to do with that, to be honest. I do write, but that's different. I mean, I have a publisher, and I write what they want me to write.

[A]

You're still writing transgender?

[B]

No. No.

[A]

Oh, no. You are. We're all different things now.

[B]

No. Well, yeah.

[A]

What are we writing now, then?

[B]

Transgender fiction is over subscribed at the moment.

[A]

Okay, I see. So what do you. What are we on to now? What do you write about now?

[B]

What I write about now is spanking. An age regression.

[A]

Okay. Okay.

[B]

Is age regression. Yes.

[A]

I'm trying to think about what that quite means.

[B]

Well, yeah, in the first one I wrote, She thinks she's been offered a job as a teacher and finds that actually she's been enrolled as a pupil in a boarding school.

[A]

I see it now.

[B]

Got it. It is a fantasy. There's a market for it. And I actually don't like writing the spanking seeds, but my publisher wants them, and I need to write to keep my brain active.

[A]

Take me through your desk. What's on your desk?

[B]

What's on my desk?

[A]

Yes, I want a tour of your desk.

[B]

Well, it's actually quite a small desk. It's actually a child's desk.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That's up on bricks.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

There's a brick under each leg.

[A]

And then what's on the desk?

[B]

What's on it is there's actually a lot of doll shoes scattered around my.

[A]

Of course, you've got to get all the accessories. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, they all wear shoes.

[A]

So that would mean if you have hundreds of dolls, that mean you have hundreds of pairs of doll shoes.

[B]

Exactly. I have more pairs of doll shoes than I have dolls.

[A]

How long can you spend just happily playing with the dolls?

[B]

Oh, can be hours.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. I love that.

[B]

They're fun.

[A]

So I have two daughters.

[B]

I guess your daughters play with dolls.

[A]

Well, one of them does a lot. And she's, you know, she can just be in that world for hours and hours, you know, dressing, you know, put them in different places and stuff. And I just think, yeah, it's a beautiful world, isn't it? And I just think. I think it's such a shame that, like, some people would hear, you know, someone overheard us just that bit. They didn't know the context. They think that's complete madness. This person must be xx.

[B]

It isn't at all, because.

[A]

Play.

[B]

Yeah. It's just play. And for your daughter, I imagine that she's imagining how her life might be when she's older, because I take it they're teenage fashion dolls. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the dolls represent girls who are considerably older than her and actually represent her future life. And for me, it's actually, in a way, a very similar thing because they can be a life that I haven't actually had, would have liked to have had. So. Yeah.

[A]

Is it too late for you to do anything? I mean, you know, is there anything now you wish you could do?

[B]

I've been thinking about it and I don't know, I was wondering whether to start taking hormones, but I don't know. I mean, at my age, it's become. Actually probably become dangerous to do that.

[A]

But is there anything you could do just in terms of meeting people from that community?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I kind of like. I would kind of like to meet more people.

[A]

But, yeah, like, I've. I mean, I've learned so much from talking to you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And if I was in. In the position of. Of thinking about my gender and. And exploring those things, talking to someone like you would be really informative. Yeah, I think it'd be arranged to talk to you. You know, you would get something from them. They would get something for you. I'm not sure if you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

See if you can get involved with some groups maybe, or something. I don't know. I feel like there's some fight. There's some fight in you there.

[B]

Well, yes, since I'm living in London, there really ought to be people I can make.

[A]

Yeah, I'm sure there's some groups. I'm sure there are. There may even be groups of older people like you, who feel the same way, who were born not at the perfect time to do what they might have otherwise done, that you could get together with or maybe, you know, they must exist.

[B]

They must exist.

[A]

They must. You'll 100% not be the only one. Can you think of what would be the happiest moment of your life? If that's too big a question. Maybe it's too big a question. Maybe a recent.

[B]

I've lived too long, there's been too many materials.

[A]

Can you think of then? A recent. A recent. Ish. Joy that stands out sometimes.

[B]

It's the little things.

[A]

Tell me about one.

[B]

Well, I'll tell you about something. Anyway. On Wednesday evening of last week, our toilet got blocked and a plumber came round on Thursday and said he couldn't do it. We needed a drainage company. And a drainage company employee came around on Thursday and said we needed a new toilet bowl, which wasn't his job. And someone was supposed to come around on Friday and didn't on Sunday. Yesterday I phoned up the Housing association emergency line and spoke to a nice young lady and she got someone else through the drainage company to come round and this person finally unblocked our toilet after Thursday, Friday, Saturday, after four days of not having a working toilet and having a toilet that you can actually flush again. I mean, that is the joy of the flushing toilet. Of a flushing toilet.

[A]

Fantastic. So you did a little dance?

[B]

Well, no, I didn't. If I do a little dance, it's usually when I'm doing the washing up. Because when I'm washing up, I have an MP3 player in my pocket and earphones clamped over my ears. And, yeah. Some of the music and stuff. It's impossible to stay still to. So I used to dance a lot.

[A]

Oh, do you?

[B]

Yeah, Yeah, I used to go out dancing.

[A]

Wonderful.

[B]

Yeah. And I bought myself proper dancing shoes.

[A]

Well, I really hope you do celebrate that 80th birthday. I think you should. You deserve it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And maybe, you know, get one extra special doll or something.

[B]

Or something. Yes. Yeah. You know, get something special.

[A]

We should celebrate ourselves.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

What have I got left to ask you? Well, I mean, there's a Million things I could ask you. Really? Let's do this. I often do an interesting game.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I'm going to close my eyes. You can either close yours or not. Totally up to you. But it helps to picture things sometimes, I find. So what I'm going to ask you to do is think back to a room, a scene, a place you were that you can remember in the greatest detail. It could be anywhere. Just I want you to describe that moment that you find yourself going back to and how you were feeling and what you were seeing.

[B]

Ah, maybe from my dancing years. The bell on Pentonville Road, the Sunday tea dance. And it was a really joyous occasion. It was predominantly a gay thing. I could go there in a skirt, looking pretty and will be accepted. And there was an old fellow who used to do the sandwiches called Jeffrey, who wore elaborate earrings and a series of hats. One of them was a turban. And the DJ was an aging lesbian called Joe Purvis, who played a big variety of music. I still listen to a lot of music from those days.

[A]

Yeah, that's where you go back to.

[B]

Well, that's certainly afflates. Go back to it. Yeah. It was a celebration, A celebration of diversity. Particularly if you were going to be exuberant.

[A]

Well, thank you so much for your time.

[B]

That's all right.

[A]

I really enjoyed talking to you. Don't leave just yet. I've got one more question for you. So last question for you. Yeah. Which is, what are you going to do next?

[B]

What, right away?

[A]

Well, right away, however you want to answer it. Totally up to you.

[B]

Right. I'm gonna walk across there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Into a. Like a little wood there. And I think of it as being the enchanted Wood. And there's a circle of logs that someone's made, but it's got lots of places in and around it that are good for photographing dolls. And then there's a sort of a labyrinate bow of intertwined sticks just down that way. And I will go there. And then after that I walk down another path. There's a bench. It's kind of high above the surrounding ground and I can swing my legs. Swinging your legs is tremendous fun. It is, as any child knows, so true. And I'm fortunate in not being very tall. So if you were a great tall person, you wouldn't be able to swing your legs there.

[A]

But listen, you keep swinging those lads. And I hope Lavinia and Samantha perform well at this photo shoot.

[B]

I'm sure they will.

[A]

And good luck.

[B]

Good luck.

[A]

Happy 80th birthday.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Whatever I do for it, you must do something.

[B]

Yes. I should probably have a trifle. Yeah.

[A]

Have a trifle.

[B]

I like trifle.

[A]

I like trifle, too. You must have a trifle.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I am what I am. And you don't understand what that is I am something much bigger than this. Body I'm bow. Am I too late to start changing? Am I too old to keep growing? I might away a lifetime of knowing but never quite going for what I might Wait want I'll be who I'll be. And you can't take my passion from me. Though it's easier to blame someone else. Question oneself.