EPISODE 94: The Most Surreal Meeting

Summary

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Strangers on a Bench – Episode 94: The Most Surreal Meeting

Date: June 29, 2026
Host: Tom Rosenthal
Guest: Anonymous “Helen”

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Episode Overview

In this deeply moving episode, Tom Rosenthal sits with a self-described “not good talker” on a North London park bench. Helen, whose life has spanned Dublin and London, opens up about family, loss, creative doubt, unexpected kindness, and longing for connection across generations. Their candid conversation weaves through the practicalities and philosophies of aging, the aftermaths of trauma, survival, and small joys—culminating in an extraordinary act of generosity.

Theme:
Intimate revelations from an ordinary stranger—the pain and poetry of a life lived, and the hope that endures through chance encounters.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Days of the Week & Small Pleasures

• Wednesdays & Cheap Flights
  • Helen’s preferred day is Wednesday, a day associated in her mind with cheaper airfares and possibility ([01:11]).
  • “I did get a good deal on a Wednesday, so I’ll try it again.” – Helen [01:32]
• Sundays evoke difficult memories of her Catholic upbringing in Dublin:
  • “It was very Catholic and dark and everyone crossing themselves and. I don’t know, I just don’t like Sundays.” – Helen [01:56]

2. Creativity, Self-Doubt & Aging

• Creative Pursuits
  • Helen enjoys painting and drawing, often of flowers or her grandchildren ([03:00]).
  • She’s harshest on work from her imagination:
    • “Usually I crumple it up and put it in the bin.” – Helen [03:19]
    • “I don’t think it’s any good because it doesn’t look great.” [03:23]
• Self-Belief
  • Helen admits she’s never truly had self-belief, but asserts,
    • “I don’t think it’s too late.” – Helen [04:53]
    • “Never too late.” [05:00]
• She yearns to visit her grandchildren in Brisbane but faces obstacles—money, age, and the physical challenge of the journey ([05:25–06:41]).

3. Grandparenting, Connection & Regret

• Missing Grandchildren
  • Helen mourns “missing those moments” with her youngest grandchildren in Brisbane ([08:16]).
• On grandparenting compared to parenting:
  • “You have much more time. And you listen better. And don’t rush around so much... Everything’s a rush, which I don’t think kids like too much.” – Helen [09:40–09:59]
• For Helen, fragile objects mean less than memories; she would “let the tornado take everything” ([11:54–12:12]).

4. Trauma, Loss, and Survival

• Bereavement
  • After Tom’s gentle probing, Helen discloses she lost a baby decades ago ([12:37–13:00]).
  • The grief was unmet by support:
    • “No, definitely not [I wasn’t looked after].” – Helen [13:18]
    • “It’s just massive grief.” [13:48]
    • She used to honor her baby’s grave with a red rose ([14:46]).
• Single Motherhood & Hardship
  • Helen left school at 12, attended art school at 13, married at 17 to an older man (a future psychoanalyst), and divorced after multiple hardships ([19:20–21:08]).
    • “He was so full of rage and anger… so we had nothing. I walked out.” – Helen [22:27–22:38]
  • With two young children, Helen moved 18 times, lived in squats, and worked as a cleaner, chef, and nanny ([22:40–23:35]).
  • On her choices:
    • “I feel so bad for the kids. But I was doing my best.” – Helen [24:11, 24:25]
    • She reflects on “choosing your damage”: moving vs. enduring toxicity ([24:34–24:48]).
  • Her children, now adults, have “done all right, considering” ([29:37]).

5. Relationships, Trust, and Resilience

• Romantic Relationships
  • Both of Helen’s significant relationships were “as bad” as each other—one marked by misogyny, the other by jealousy ([31:18–31:32]).
    • “I’ve been hopeless [at picking them].” – Helen [31:53]
  • She attributes her struggles in love to her upbringing: “Freudian Christian communion Dublin in the 40s...” ([32:02]).
  • Despite this, Tom reminds Helen she’s persevered further than most ([32:20]).
• Receiving and Giving Care
  • Helen mostly feels she’s cared for others and has been looked after by only “one person”—a platonic friend she met upon arriving in London ([41:05]).
    • “At least I know it’s good. It’s good.” [41:59]

6. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Survival:
  • “Beautiful chaos, but yeah, eventually… I mean, I think my kids had had like 18 addresses…” – Helen [22:12]
• On Creativity and Self-Perception:
  • “I think I had quite a lot of problems. Bad spelling, bad memory, taking in information. School was horrendous… I left when I was 12.” – Helen [18:52–19:20]
• Tom’s Act of Generosity:
  • “Can I buy you a ticket to go to Brisbane?” – Tom [35:09]
  • “I would really love to, because it clearly means a lot to you and you’ve been so generous in sharing some of your life with me.” – Tom [35:50]
  • “I can’t believe what you’re saying. I can’t really say I can take that.” – Helen [35:58]
• On Life’s Fragility and Hope:
  • “Bad things happen, but they get better, so.” – Helen [29:02]
  • “You’ve done really well to get from there to here, you know. Done really well.” – Tom [32:21]

7. Moments of Peace & Imagination

• Helen’s Imaginative Memory ([42:41–44:45]):

  • She describes a vivid memory from Connemara, Ireland—turquoise sea, golden sand, her family, and a surreal vision of “dozens of horses” running loose on the beach.
  • “It really was amazing.” – Helen [44:45]

• Ending on the Ordinary

  • When asked, “What are you going to do next?” Helen answers:
    • “I’m going to go home and think about this great bulb of fennel that I bought yesterday... That’s going to be my supper.” [44:59]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introduction & Helen’s Wednesday – [00:45–01:32]
• Creative doubt and self-belief – [03:19–04:53]
• Longing for her grandchildren in Brisbane – [05:14–06:36]
• Reflections on grandparenting vs. parenting – [09:40–10:02]
• On loss of a child and grief – [12:37–14:46]
• Escaping an abusive marriage & hardship – [21:03–24:23]
• Reflection on moving and settling – [25:45–27:04]
• Discussion of romance and regret – [31:18–34:02]
• Tom offers to buy her a ticket – [35:09–36:04]
• Helen’s paradise memory – [42:41–44:45]
• Closing with hope and fennel soup – [44:59–45:30]

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Memorable Quotes

• “Never too late.” – Helen [05:00]
• “I can’t believe what you’re saying. I can’t really say I can take that.” – Helen [35:58]
• “But I was doing my best.” – Helen [24:25]
• “You’ve done really well to get from there to here, you know.” – Tom [32:21]
• “Extraordinary. Quite extraordinary.” – Helen [45:48]

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Tone & Atmosphere

The episode carries a gentle, empathetic tone—Tom’s understated curiosity provides space for Helen’s honesty, blending humor, sorrow, and awe. The banter is tinged with melancholy, but humor and kindness shade the conversation, amplifying its humanity.

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Takeaways

• Ordinary lives are layered with extraordinary resilience.
• Loss echoes but does not wholly define; creativity, care, and connection endure.
• Small gestures—buying a flight, listening fully—can have profound impacts.
• Life’s most surreal meetings may happen on the most ordinary benches.

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Closing Image

As dusk falls, Helen contemplates how to cook fennel for supper, buoyed by a new hope to see “my babies’ babies”—a testament to the unpredictability, generosity, and beauty that can arise from happenstance.

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[End of Summary]

Transcript

[Tom Rosenthal]

Hello. Sorry to bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on A Bench, where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a.

[Helen]

I'm not a good talker.

[Tom Rosenthal]

That's perfect for poker. No, it's actually what I like because the whole point of this is hearing from people who aren't good talkers. As in, for me, I like to talk to people who aren't normally heard from. That's kind of the point. So the fact that you say you're not a good talker is ideal to me. Music to my ears. First question is, do you have a favourite day of the week?

[Helen]

Not really. Maybe Wednesday. A bit.

[Tom Rosenthal]

A bit Wednesday?

[Helen]

A bit Wednesday.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Can you say why?

[Helen]

I've learned that you can buy cheaper

[Tom Rosenthal]

flights on a Wednesday.

[Helen]

On a Wednesday?

[Tom Rosenthal]

Really?

[Helen]

That's what they say.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Do you believe it?

[Helen]

I did get a good deal on a Wednesday, so I'll try it again.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Can you remember the greatest Wednesday of your life?

[Helen]

No.

[Tom Rosenthal]

No. Can you remember any major event in your life happening on any particular day?

[Helen]

For my favourite things, no.

[Tom Rosenthal]

But for your least favourite things, yes.

[Helen]

A Sunday.

[Narrator/Poet]

Because

[Helen]

I was brought up in Dublin and it was very Catholic and dark and everyone crossing themselves and. I don't know, I just don't like Sundays.

[Tom Rosenthal]

And have Sundays redeemed themselves at all to you throughout your life?

[Helen]

They're better now.

[Tom Rosenthal]

They're better.

[Helen]

Much better.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Less crossing happens now.

[Helen]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Let's take a Wednesday then. For you, what represents a really good day lived on Earth for you currently for a Wednesday?

[Helen]

Just long walks on the heath and maybe seeing some friends, hopefully to get into a bit of something creative.

[Tom Rosenthal]

What does that look like for you?

[Helen]

Like maybe taking out my paints, pencils and do a drawing. And then in the summer, I like to go down into the garden and do a little bit of gardening. On a Wednesday.

[Tom Rosenthal]

What are you painting and what are you drawing when you're painting and drawing?

[Helen]

Probably something in the room. Particular flower arrangement or a photograph of my grandkids.

[Tom Rosenthal]

But nothing from your imagination?

[Helen]

Sometimes, yeah. Mess around.

[Tom Rosenthal]

What happens when you are painting or drawing from your imagination? What do you find comes out?

[Helen]

Usually I crumple it up and put it in the bin.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Really?

[Helen]

Because I don't think it's any good because it doesn't look great.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Is that your perception or others?

[Helen]

Oh, no, just mine.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Yeah. Is that related to it coming from your imagination? What I mean Is that like a self belief issue?

[Helen]

Yes, I'd say it is.

[Tom Rosenthal]

When have you had the most self belief in your life, would you say?

[Helen]

Gosh, that's a difficult question.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Some of the best ones are.

[Helen]

I. I can't answer it.

[Tom Rosenthal]

You can? Not really, you know, think about, think. Think back to a chapter in your life when you believed in yourself the most. Can you?

[Helen]

I can't.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Is that because you can't quite remember how you felt at those times or you think you've never really had it?

[Helen]

Both.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Yeah. And you've never really had it because

[Helen]

this is getting a bit too like a psychiatrist and a patient.

[Tom Rosenthal]

You think so? I don't think so. I think they're just questions. I mean, I've never had therapy, so I don't know.

[Helen]

You've never had therapy? Oh, right.

[Tom Rosenthal]

So I don't know what it's like. I just. I'm just interested in people's lives. It's just to understand more about who you are and who I'm talking to.

[Helen]

Okay, go on. Next question.

[Tom Rosenthal]

So is it too late to gain more self belief, do you think now?

[Helen]

I don't think it's too late.

[Tom Rosenthal]

There we go. The worst positive.

[Helen]

I hope not.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Never too late.

[Helen]

Never too late.

[Tom Rosenthal]

So what's. What is it not too late for in your life? What are you really keen on?

[Helen]

You're gonna make me cry.

[Tom Rosenthal]

You see, that's okay. It's okay to cry.

[Helen]

No, I'm sitting up here because I'm missing my grandchildren. I'm trying to figure out to get a Wednesday flight to go to Brisbane

[Tom Rosenthal]

and that's where they are. Are they all there?

[Helen]

No, they're not all there.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Right, just so some of them are there.

[Helen]

Some of them are there.

[Tom Rosenthal]

How many are in Brisbane?

[Helen]

My daughter and her husband and two children.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Okay. How many grandchildren do you have? All told? I have five of the two that are in Brisbane. The oldest?

[Helen]

No, they're the babies.

[Tom Rosenthal]

They're the babies. Okay.

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

What are you missing about them?

[Helen]

They're growing up and seeing them all the time. They're wonderful little minds and bodies and. Well, of that it's amazing. Not so far away.

[Tom Rosenthal]

So tell me, what's stopping you from booking this flight?

[Helen]

Well. Money. Yeah, I'm old.

[Tom Rosenthal]

You're fresh.

[Helen]

I am.

[Tom Rosenthal]

No, you made it up this hill. We're on top of a hill. You can't be that up. Well, you can't be that bad.

[Helen]

Well, going to Brisbane, it nearly kills me.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Oh, okay. Doing the fright. That's not ideal.

[Helen]

The flight is Like a nightmare. Jet lag and just everything. It takes me about three weeks to recover, so it's not easy.

[Tom Rosenthal]

You don't have the money to go to Brisbane. That's why you're looking at the cheap flights.

[Helen]

Yep. Yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Can anybody help you?

[Helen]

I don't like to ask anybody. I'm very frugal and I save up and I get a ticket.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Do you need, like, a special ticket or anything? Is this a normal ticket?

[Helen]

I have to get assisted passage, which is wonderful.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Oh.

[Helen]

And you don't have to pay for it.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Oh, okay. How do you get assisted?

[Helen]

Because I've just had my hips replaced.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Oh, fantastic.

[Helen]

And I can't deal with the miles of walking in airports and stuff like that, so I get help.

[Tom Rosenthal]

You get driven around in the buggy?

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Oh, how exciting. When I see those, I go, oh, lucky you. I'm jealous.

[Helen]

No, it is.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Can I come with you to Brisbane?

[Helen]

You can be my parent.

[Tom Rosenthal]

I can be a.

[Helen]

No. That makes a huge difference, having that.

[Tom Rosenthal]

How long would you go for if you did go?

[Helen]

Well, I did go for three months, 90 days. You're allowed on your visa.

[Tom Rosenthal]

I mean, if you went for three months, you'd end up missing the grandchildren that are back here.

[Helen]

No, because I hardly see them. My eldest grandchild is 36.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Or salad. Okay. Right.

[Helen]

When they're little babies, it's different. You can read to them and cuddle them and take them for walks into the park.

[Tom Rosenthal]

So you're missing those moments.

[Helen]

Yeah. What are your parents like with your little ones?

[Tom Rosenthal]

My parents? Well, one's not alive, but one is. And my mother is the one that's alive. And she's good. I would say she's maybe the opposite of you in that she's much better as they get older.

[Helen]

And she's nearby.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Yeah, she's nearby. She's lovely. So very lucky to have that.

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

And she sees plenty of the kids.

[Helen]

Good.

[Tom Rosenthal]

In fact, my second child is still homeschooled, and every Monday she goes and spends a day with Grandma. We call it Grandma Day. And she just goes and lives a Grandma Day life, which is basically just doing puzzles and going for lunch.

[Narrator/Poet]

Yeah.

[Helen]

Those are the sort of things you remember forever. Yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Do you remember much about your grandparents?

[Helen]

I liked my Irish grandmother. My English grandmother was terribly posh and cold and I hardly ever saw her. And I never met my grandfather. My English one, the Irish one, was okay.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Do you have any kind of models for good grandparenting from them? Not really, no.

[Helen]

No.

[Tom Rosenthal]

You had to invent it. You had to make it up. Are you doing anything differently in grandparenting than you did as a parent? I'm going to try it.

[Helen]

Yeah. You have much more time. And you listen better. And don't rush around so much. If you're a parent, get your hat on. Everything's a rush, I think, which I don't think kids like too much.

[Tom Rosenthal]

And probably parents don't like either. No, but it's just what happens.

[Helen]

What happens. It's really sad, I think.

[Tom Rosenthal]

And also the sad thing is it's not the parents or the child's fault. It's just the world we're in.

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

No one wants to rush anything, really. Ideally, nothing good can happen in a rush, really.

[Helen]

No.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Apart from maybe buying cheap tickets on Wednesday.

[Helen]

Maybe that's it

[Narrator/Poet]

there.

[Tom Rosenthal]

You have to ask. Fastest finger first.

[Helen]

God, it's Wednesday.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Are you very computer savvy? Do you love a computer?

[Helen]

No, I'm not. Sometimes I just want to fling it at the wall.

[Tom Rosenthal]

You should. Have you ever thrown anything at a wall? A ball, yeah.

[Helen]

Okay.

[Tom Rosenthal]

When did you throw a ball at a wall?

[Helen]

Oh, when I was a kid hitting a tennis ball with a racket against a wall.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Do you remember the wall that you hit the ball against?

[Helen]

I do.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Oh, amazing.

[Helen]

It had a garage beside it, and my uncle had a very vintage type car in there, I think.

[Tom Rosenthal]

You ever worry about hitting the vintage car with the.

[Helen]

No, I didn't because it was the other way around.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Have you ever broken anything precious to someone?

[Helen]

Oh, I'm sure I have. I've probably.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Or to you, even maybe repressed it. Let it all out now. So you walk up a hill. You didn't think you'd be thinking about breaking things? Do objects mean anything to you? Generally,

[Helen]

very certain things. I don't like collecting too much.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Let's imagine a hypothetical situation is happening in your house and there's a mini tornado occurring.

[Helen]

What would I grab?

[Tom Rosenthal]

Correct?

[Helen]

I have no idea.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Controversial answer. You know what? I'm gonna let the tornado take everything.

[Helen]

Yeah, I haven't a clue. Might keep me awake tonight thinking, what was the object?

[Tom Rosenthal]

Is the tornado really coming?

[Helen]

Is it really coming? No, I can't think of anything.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Let it all go.

[Helen]

Let it all go.

[Tom Rosenthal]

I like that. How many children do you have?

[Helen]

I have three.

[Tom Rosenthal]

You took a minute to think about that. Why did you take a moment to think about that?

[Helen]

Just because we've been talking about numbers of grandchildren and all of that. I did have a little baby that died, so I suppose I've had four.

[Tom Rosenthal]

What was that in the room flex third. No, I mean, what was the experience like?

[Helen]

Shocking.

[Narrator/Poet]

Yeah.

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

I'm guessing this happened a while ago. I mean, this is quite a long time ago.

[Helen]

Long time ago. Like 40 something years ago.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Do you think you got the care that you would have got today? Do you think you were looked after?

[Helen]

No, definitely not.

[Tom Rosenthal]

What did you not get?

[Helen]

Do you think I didn't get serious attention? Yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Obviously it has to change you fundamentally as a person.

[Helen]

Yeah, I think it does somewhere.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Do you think you know what. What was lost in you from that time fundamentally?

[Helen]

Well, I lost a baby. It's just massive grief.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Yeah. I mean, if you say you weren't looked after super well at the time, did you get a chance to.

[Helen]

No.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Were you helped in any way by anyone? No, no. That's really rough, isn't it?

[Narrator/Poet]

It's.

[Tom Rosenthal]

How do you choose to. I mean, so difficult when it's a baby. But do you kind of. Do you try and keep their memory going in some way?

[Helen]

I don't try. It just happens.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Of course.

[Helen]

Sometimes.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Helen]

But yeah, it's always there. Yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Do you mark it anyway?

[Helen]

I've become very slack. I used to organize a red rose going on her grave in Norfolk. In Norwich is where it happened. But I did go up with a friend a couple of years ago and made a little grave look sweet.

[Tom Rosenthal]

It's a really brutal life, isn't it?

[Helen]

Can be.

[Tom Rosenthal]

I've talked to quite a few people who've had grief. Well, yeah. And similar with baby. You know, babies dying.

[Helen]

Yeah. You just realize that you. Everything's so fragile.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Yeah. But I think if there's one like the tiniest sliver of light from something like that happening is that energy you put into everything after and the love is stronger, as strong as you can make it. You know that.

[Helen]

That's true.

[Tom Rosenthal]

It's an awful thing to be made aware of in that way.

[Helen]

Yeah, I know when you have children, you know that. Yeah. So your age of children, 10 and 12. Are they friends?

[Tom Rosenthal]

Are they friends? They are, but I mean, obviously, you know, they fight. They fight, but they're friends.

[Helen]

That's good.

[Tom Rosenthal]

You know, fundamentally, that's very good. If I need them to go to bed, they are definitely friends. Then you know, one of those. And it's been lovely. But at the same time, kind of at a point now where maybe you can advise about this, but it kind of in that interesting moment of their friends becoming the kind of go to people in their lives.

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

It's an interesting transition. Obviously it's completely natural but it's a real step. Yeah, yeah. Away. And then also it's a reckoning for. For oneself as well, because. Okay, what's my life now if my children are more over there and less needing of me and what do I do with that time? Children can give us real obvious pointers for our time, you know.

[Helen]

Yes.

[Tom Rosenthal]

They fill in the gaps really easily.

[Helen]

Yes.

[Tom Rosenthal]

And then when they're taken away, it's like, what am I. You know, what did you do with your. When that moment happened for you and your children started flying off, did anything grow or maybe it shrunk for. I know.

[Helen]

Difficult one to answer because. Because it was complicated.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Helen]

Very complicated. I'd have to take days and weeks.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Would it?

[Helen]

Years. Yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

But you can't say, like, you know, I mean, let's go. Let's go for this one. How do you deal with them just leaving the family home? Eventually.

[Helen]

Yeah. It's. It's a big one. It's hard to see them go, oh, yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

With the time gained from them not being there, did anything come into your life? Did you seek to kind of fill it with anything?

[Helen]

Not enough, probably.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Not enough. Okay, so you're slightly regretful of the time.

[Helen]

Yeah. Yeah, probably a bit. Yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

What would you have liked to have fill it with? I mean, what would you like?

[Helen]

Maybe studied something and gone to art class.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Could have done more drawings, could have

[Helen]

done a lot of things. But all these labels everyone's got now for being this artistic and whatever. There's millions of labels.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Correct.

[Helen]

And I think I've got them all.

[Narrator/Poet]

I think.

[Helen]

I think.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Oh, yeah.

[Helen]

That's what that is. I've got that.

[Tom Rosenthal]

And any of these particular labels that you're most interested in, in relation to you, that you feel like, you know, I actually.

[Narrator/Poet]

That's.

[Helen]

I can't add up. Bad spelling, bad memory, taking in information. Yeah. I think I had quite a lot of problems.

[Tom Rosenthal]

And I'm guessing this would have made school difficult.

[Helen]

It was horrendous.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Helen]

Right.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Yeah. So really, really bad.

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Narrator/Poet]

Yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

What did that do to you?

[Helen]

It made me leave school when I was 12. You were allowed to do that in Ireland back then. My parents didn't put up any fight about it or anything. That's a bit crazy.

[Tom Rosenthal]

I said, what on earth did you do then?

[Helen]

Then my dad tried to get me into an art school, which eventually did at 13.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Okay.

[Helen]

And I did that. And then I got engaged when I was 16, married when I was 17.

[Narrator/Poet]

Whoa.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Okay.

[Helen]

So.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Wow. Okay. How long were you with the person you got Married to?

[Helen]

Till I was 24. How many years is that?

[Tom Rosenthal]

Eight. There's your bad counting again. You weren't wrong.

[Helen]

I wasn't wrong? No, no, I wasn't wrong.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Did you have any children with this person?

[Helen]

Two.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Two, okay.

[Helen]

Yes. He was a doctor and then all he wanted to do was get to the Tavistock here in London. So he's quite a well known Freudian psychoanalyst right now.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Okay. What was it like to get married at 17?

[Helen]

Terrible. To a Freudian, psychoanalyst, misogynist.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Yeah. How old was he when you got married?

[Helen]

22.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Okay, so he was five years older.

[Helen]

No, he's 10 years older.

[Tom Rosenthal]

No, Helen, he.

[Helen]

I was.

[Tom Rosenthal]

You got married at 6, so he was 26 when you got married.

[Helen]

Okay, whatever. He's about 10 years, 9 years old.

[Tom Rosenthal]

So plenty older, basically.

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

That's a lot. Especially at that age.

[Helen]

At that age. It's shocking.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Yeah. And no one thought said anything about this. It just was fine.

[Helen]

So completely unprotected.

[Tom Rosenthal]

God, so rough, isn't it? Crikey. Yeah. But you, you got out eventually though.

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

So that was good. Was that hard to get out?

[Helen]

It was hard to get out, yeah. Yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

How did you do it?

[Helen]

I just left.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Do you remember, what do you remember of that day?

[Helen]

Getting the kids together, getting to stay somewhere. Honestly, we shouldn't be going into all this here on a bench up here. It's too much.

[Tom Rosenthal]

It's a really interesting life. Yeah, it's your life. It's a. It's a beautiful chaos, you know?

[Helen]

Beautiful chaos. But yeah, eventually, I mean, I think my kids had had like 18 addresses

[Narrator/Poet]

probably

[Helen]

hauled around the place.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Why? Why?

[Helen]

Because we had nothing. I walked out. So. He was so full of rage and anger. He never looked after us or anything.

[Tom Rosenthal]

How did you survive?

[Helen]

Going from pillar to post, being a cleaner, being a chef, being a shop assistant, all sorts of things. I was a nanny for a long time.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Helen]

And that was amazing.

[Tom Rosenthal]

You've also got the kids where you're doing all these things.

[Helen]

No, later now.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Okay.

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

When you had the kids, what were you able to do?

[Helen]

I did cleaning. I worked in pubs.

[Tom Rosenthal]

How old were the children at this time?

[Helen]

When I left they were five and. No, seven and five.

[Tom Rosenthal]

And you had to keep moving and

[Helen]

moving because I was living in squats and people's houses.

[Tom Rosenthal]

I see.

[Helen]

I think we lived in three squats.

[Tom Rosenthal]

What are those squats like?

[Helen]

Actually they were fine.

[Tom Rosenthal]

How can you describe what one was like?

[Helen]

Well, there was a guy, a father in the kids primary school who was Sort of agent of property. And his daughter and my daughter were friends in school and he knew you were having trouble and getting put out of somewhere and he said, I've got this place, it's up for sale, blah, blah, you can go there. So I did that and he had another one. That kind of thing.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Do you look back on this time with any kind of fondness? I mean, you know, it sounds like it was incredibly.

[Helen]

No, I feel. I feel so bad for the kids. Why not? Good.

[Tom Rosenthal]

But also, you're doing your best, right?

[Helen]

I'm doing my best, yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

And I'm guessing you were taking them away from a situation you thought was best for them to be out of.

[Helen]

Yes. Better than being in a toxic atmosphere

[Tom Rosenthal]

consistently, which would have been really damaging.

[Helen]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

I mean, I suppose you just choose your. Choose your damage, really. But in that respect, like, better to move around than to be in a. Consistently toxic.

[Helen]

So, yeah, definitely tricky. Yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

And during this time, the ex husband, did he ever mellow and help or. No? Nothing. Not even his own children, though?

[Helen]

Well, my daughter doesn't speak to him, but my son does.

[Tom Rosenthal]

But he never helped you? I mean, what I'm saying, like, never?

[Helen]

No.

[Tom Rosenthal]

That's mad, isn't it?

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Just out of spite.

[Helen]

Yes. I think his ego was so destroyed by being left, but he never got over it.

[Tom Rosenthal]

How did you eventually settle? Like, where did you, you know, after you move these 17, 18 times? I'm sure at some point you don't

[Helen]

even ask, it's too much of a

[Tom Rosenthal]

saga, but you found you ended up somewhere here. Here.

[Helen]

The movie eventually got a house somehow, and I've been there for 40 years, so that's just unbelievable luck.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Can you. Can you tell me a bit about that luck?

[Helen]

I had friends who.

[Tom Rosenthal]

It's too complicated, but it's a lot of luck.

[Helen]

Yeah. Amazing luck.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Is any of that luck related to your qualities? I know that's a hard thing to try and answer yourself. There's luck, but you have to, you know, you have to be. You have to be a player. You know, there might be a reason why people helped you out because they care for you and because of who you were and what you've gone through yourself and you've done that. You see what I mean?

[Helen]

A lot of luck, really. Meeting people at the right time or whatever.

[Tom Rosenthal]

They must have cared about you too.

[Helen]

They must have.

[Narrator/Poet]

Yeah.

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

So you engendered that some as well.

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

So you were a part of it,

[Helen]

probably, in some way.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

And so was that. Was that a kind of a game changing moment in your life?

[Helen]

Well, having a permanent house to live in? Both. Yeah, of course.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Did you struggle at all with the kind of after moving so much, you know, was moving kind of in your soul that you found kind of, you know, bedding down anywhere kind of complicated?

[Helen]

I didn't know about that.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Or you were just so relieved that you actually enjoy. You know,

[Helen]

when I look back, I think, what the heck was I doing? I mean, I do.

[Tom Rosenthal]

I think what you mean enjoying those times.

[Helen]

Yeah. God almighty, my poor children. How did I do it?

[Tom Rosenthal]

Doesn't sound like you could have done anything.

[Helen]

If you asked them, they'd say, oh, my God, it was a nightmare.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Yeah. But would they, would they think you could have done anything differently?

[Helen]

I don't know.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Do they blame you for that time?

[Helen]

They blame me, but I think it. It's hurt them, definitely.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Do you ever talk about that with them?

[Helen]

Not anymore. They're okay.

[Tom Rosenthal]

When you say not anymore, you feel like you've just, you have talked about. Like you've talked about it enough or. Yeah, I think you've gone past it or you've gone past it.

[Helen]

I think we've all gone past it. And you don't want to be bringing it.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Of course.

[Helen]

Of course.

[Tom Rosenthal]

But you feel like you've. You've. That, you know, it covered the ground.

[Helen]

We know it.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Helen]

We've covered the ground.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Helen]

Bad things happen, but they get better, so.

[Tom Rosenthal]

They do.

[Narrator/Poet]

Yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Well, it sounds from the outside, I mean, obviously I only know what you've told me, but it really sounds like you had to escape a really difficult situation. You did, obviously the best you could for your children. Immensely difficult circumstances. Having two small children and having to find home and with no, you know, so you literally were going. Right. You didn't have any base money at this point?

[Helen]

No.

[Tom Rosenthal]

No, nothing. Right. So, you know, your, your children have got on. They've. They've had children themselves. You know, I think you've done. I think you've done pretty well.

[Helen]

They've done all right, considering what they had to go through. Definitely. Yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

And then you had. I guessing you found someone else to have a baby with at some point.

[Helen]

Yep.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Was that, was that an easy find?

[Helen]

No.

[Tom Rosenthal]

How did you find this person?

[Helen]

Through friends.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Helen]

But then look at all these young. I'm so amazed by people's strength now. I see how they run.

[Tom Rosenthal]

And when you see five young men,

[Helen]

they look like they're strong. It's amazing.

[Tom Rosenthal]

But, you know, it's beautiful.

[Helen]

They're often on a mission somehow They've

[Tom Rosenthal]

all got the same haircut as well.

[Narrator/Poet]

And shoes.

[Tom Rosenthal]

White socks. They've all got white socks.

[Helen]

You found this actually here. This is a Druid mound, you know that?

[Tom Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Helen]

This place?

[Tom Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Helen]

And this is where my youngest one had her naming ceremony.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Okay.

[Helen]

Right.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Right here.

[Helen]

Just right there. It was the spring solstice and we came up here at like half four in the morning.

[Tom Rosenthal]

But a beautiful place to have a naming ceremony.

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

What happened during the ceremony?

[Helen]

Oh, he did little Buddhist type things. I can't remember all the detail.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Tell me about finding the person. How did you find this person? Eventually, then the next love. And was it better than the first?

[Helen]

No, it's worse.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Oh, no,

[Helen]

not worse. As bad as bad. Different.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Okay, differently bad.

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Narrator/Poet]

How?

[Helen]

How? Psychotic jealousy. So jealous of my kids? Eventually, yeah. Yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Oh, God. So you haven't really picked them?

[Helen]

No, I've been hopeless.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Oh, no.

[Helen]

What?

[Tom Rosenthal]

Why do you think you'd be so bad at picking them?

[Helen]

I don't know. Probably being brought up in this weird Freudian Christian communion. Dublin in the 40s, I think. It was insane.

[Tom Rosenthal]

It's so rough, isn't it, where you just land. You didn't have any choice, you just landed there.

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

You know, you've done really well to get from there to here, you know. Done really well.

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

You know, and no one knows that, you know, when you. When you see you walking around, you don't know how well you've done. You see him, someone walking around North London, you don't know how far they've come.

[Helen]

No.

[Tom Rosenthal]

You don't be in a place, do you? But if only. I was brought up in West London. In West London, yeah. So I haven't gone very far at all.

[Helen]

And always lived in London.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Always lived in London, Yeah. I was with my mum. She's a single parent.

[Helen]

So where was your dad?

[Tom Rosenthal]

My dad was in Suffolk, so I was out of wedlock. I was a child of an affair and he stayed with his wife and came to visit every few months or so.

[Helen]

He was there for you? Did you love him?

[Tom Rosenthal]

Yeah, very much. Oh, yeah. But it was a. It was a. You know, he wasn't there for me growing up. We had some quality time together, but he wasn't a consistent force.

[Helen]

Right.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Makes a big difference if you don't have a father there present. You know, you're forced into certain roles earlier than you might otherwise be.

[Helen]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

You know, if you. If you grow up with me and my mum, your elevated position in that household. So, yeah, very, quite quickly, you know, in terms of, you know, sharing things and bouncing things off each other and kind of decisions and helping her. It becomes a very different dynamic.

[Helen]

It's less.

[Tom Rosenthal]

It's less of a child, you know. You don't get as much child room.

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

And you're forced into kind of adult stuff. Quick, quicker, too quickly. But there was never anything but, you know, love. So I can't. I can't complain too much at all. Have you ever had a good, good romance?

[Helen]

No.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Never?

[Helen]

No.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Not too late, you know.

[Helen]

Oh, it is.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Well, you hang on. Earlier you said it's never too late for anything. It's on the tape. We'll rewind it back, is what you said.

[Helen]

Did I say that? Yeah. Oh, dear. Maybe, maybe, maybe. Who knows? But I'm not looking, I can tell you that. I don't trust myself, to be fair.

[Tom Rosenthal]

I can see why. But, you know. But maybe there's. No, it isn't too late. You never know.

[Helen]

You never know. You never know.

[Tom Rosenthal]

So what's left still to do in your life that you would really like to do?

[Helen]

Get to Brisbane. That's my next thing I have to do. That's what's in my mind at the minute.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Helen]

And it sounds ridiculous, but at this stage, it's quite a big thing.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Of course it is.

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Can I suggest something? Can I buy you a ticket to go to Brisbane?

[Helen]

What? What are you saying?

[Tom Rosenthal]

I'm saying I'd like to buy you a ticket to go to Brisbane.

[Helen]

You're joking.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Not at all. You know, I've done okay musically in my life.

[Helen]

Musically?

[Tom Rosenthal]

Yes. So that's how I've made my money. But I'm very lucky. I make an excess of money.

[Helen]

What kind of music?

[Tom Rosenthal]

It's just boring. It's just me singing. It's just not that exciting. I'm very lucky that quite a lot of people listen. But that has meant that I continue to make money consistently when I really. I just don't deserve it at that amount.

[Helen]

Really?

[Tom Rosenthal]

Yeah. I really mean it. I would really love to, because it clearly means a lot to you and you've been so generous in sharing some of your life with me.

[Helen]

Oh, my God. I can't believe what you're saying. I can't really say. I can take that.

[Tom Rosenthal]

You can totally take it. I insist because it's money that I have and it obviously means a lot to you, and why wouldn't I? So let's do it. It's a funny life, isn't it?

[Helen]

What's your name?

[Tom Rosenthal]

My name is Tom.

[Helen]

Tom What?

[Narrator/Poet]

It's Tom.

[Tom Rosenthal]

What? It's Tom Rosenthal is my name.

[Helen]

Tom Rosen Rosenthal. How funny. I hated school so much, but there was one girl who was called Rose Rosenthal. Not in Dublin.

[Narrator/Poet]

All right.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Did you like Rose? Rosemary?

[Helen]

I did like her, but I can't believe what you're saying.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Believe it.

[Helen]

He was serious.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Yeah, completely. I think you deserve it.

[Helen]

Oh, what an extraordinary meeting.

[Tom Rosenthal]

I know. I feel that, too.

[Helen]

My daughter Bonnie, in Brisbane. Her dad was a musician. Australian folk singer. Psychotically jealous.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Part of your lineup of great choices. But the grandchildren are great.

[Helen]

They're amazing.

[Tom Rosenthal]

And that's the main thing.

[Helen]

They are amazing. Honestly, this feels like the most surreal meeting ever.

[Tom Rosenthal]

So now I've spoken to. I mean, I've approached hundreds, Hundreds of people. And so you do get an idea of someone that's got a lot in them. I could kind of see.

[Helen]

But you couldn't see me.

[Tom Rosenthal]

No, I could see enough because I was talking to those people over there. But I was coming over in this direction when they stopped me, so I got a chance as they were talking to me.

[Helen]

They stopped you?

[Tom Rosenthal]

Yeah. The two people you sitting on the bench? Yeah, they stopped me because they recognized me. And so I then was looking over in this direction so I could actually take in. I could look at you for quite a while. And I just thought, there's a lot in that person you can just tell. Oh, you know.

[Helen]

Oh, amazing.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Yeah. And I was right.

[Helen]

Extraordinary in the Druid,

[Tom Rosenthal]

just by the naming ceremony. The naming ceremony loop. Is this your favourite? Do you come to this bench in particular for a read, like.

[Helen]

I usually try to get that one.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Oh, okay.

[Helen]

But someone broke it.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Oh, it looks new.

[Helen]

Yeah, but I try and come up here most nights.

[Tom Rosenthal]

At night?

[Helen]

No.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Well, evenings, yeah. Okay. That's interesting. Why do you come up in the evening?

[Helen]

Because I like the light sunset and the sky is beautiful and there's a sort of, I don't know, peace here I like. And Rosa, the little girl that I was nanny to since she was three months old, and now she's just finishing uni in Edinburgh and I'm going to go to her and we adore each other.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Oh, that's lovely. What does it mean to you to be so close to someone who's younger, you know?

[Helen]

It's wonderful.

[Tom Rosenthal]

I guess it's wonderful for her as well.

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Do you feel like you need. You need things to look after a bit? Is that in your.

[Narrator/Poet]

You?

[Helen]

I do like that, yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

I send my kids over to you.

[Helen]

I do like looking after people. Definitely.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Do you Think people have looked after you enough? Do you think you've been looked after? Yeah. Do you think you look after people because you've. It's like looking after yourself. The next best thing. As in, who knows?

[Helen]

Maybe I thought about it like that, but maybe that's one way to look at it.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Can you think of anyone that's meaningfully looked after you well, in your life?

[Helen]

Yeah, one person.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Can I ask who that was and how?

[Helen]

That was just someone I met, actually, the first day we arrived in London from Dublin. Somehow it was a mad thing. We drove up in a van to a guy who was an antique dealer near Milton Keynes. And we just had a lovely. We just really liked each other a lot and with no strings, nothing. Just a really nice guy and he used to come down and stay and come for walks on the heath and so on.

[Tom Rosenthal]

That's lovely. And so it wasn't romantic. It's just a lovely friendship.

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Well, I'm really glad you got one.

[Helen]

At least I know it's good. It's good.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Before you go, I've got two things I like to do. One is, I'll give you a small choice. It's either. Either I get people to describe what we can see in front of us. There's that option. Or if you wanted to, I sometimes get people to close their eyes and describe a scene from their imagination, from their past. Which one would you rather do?

[Helen]

Okay, I'll think I'll do that one.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Okay, so I'll close my eyes, but you don't have to close yours. Totally up to you. You're thinking back to any moment in your life. There's something that really comes back to you sharply when you let your mind wander.

[Helen]

Well, I'm out in the west coast of Ireland, in Connemara, on a golden sand beach with turquoise sea. And I'm with my mother and my daughter and a niece and it's total paradise. And then suddenly we heard the strangest sound. And we could see all these horses coming, just with no riders on them, nothing. Dozens of horses. And they just walked past us on the beach and that was that. And we all were like, with jaw dropped. We didn't know what we'd seen or how it happened or where it went. That was. Was a paradise beach. It really was amazing. Dog, I think was called Dog's Bay. And the tide had come in so high it had covered a few field even, and it was crystal clear. And there were big rocks in the field so you could go and swim to the rock and Then jump in. And the grass was all underneath. It was extraordinary.

[Tom Rosenthal]

Okay, you ready for this last question? There's one more.

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Tom Rosenthal]

You can either answer this in a kind of now way or general way, however you want to answer it. It's fine. What are you going to do next?

[Helen]

I'm going to go home and think about this great bulb of fennel that I bought yesterday. And how am I going to cook it? Am I going to roast it or boil it or what? Because that's going to be my supper. I haven't decided which yet. Maybe by the time I get home, I'll have worked.

[Tom Rosenthal]

It will all become clear.

[Helen]

Not very profound thoughts, but who needs them?

[Tom Rosenthal]

You've done lots of them already on this bench. It's good that it ends with some fennel. I think, however you cook it. Well, thank you so much for sharing some of your life and. And all your time.

[Helen]

It's extraordinary. Quite extraordinary.

[Tom Rosenthal]

And let's get you to Brisbane. Gonna happen.

[Helen]

Oh, God.

[Narrator/Poet]

Saving up my money. Travel around the world to see my babies babies again Been finding ways to alchemize my pain Hands in wet earth and wet brush to paint I never felt that I quite understood I was so young he held the cards and I did what I could we don't tend to talk about it now

[Helen]

But

[Narrator/Poet]

I hope they know I did my best to get us out. You say it's not too late Many ways to start again I know it's not too late the new day sweet and strange the beauty of happenstance remains Travel around the world to see my baby's babies again. It.