EPISODE 95: Periscopes and Bagels

Summary

Strangers on a Bench: Episode 95

"Periscopes and Bagels"
Host: Tom Rosenthal
Date: July 6, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this heartfelt and disarmingly open episode of Strangers on a Bench, Tom Rosenthal sits with a Scottish-turned-Londoner bagel shop worker and writer. The pair discuss the unpredictability of life’s routines, the complexities of friendship and romantic breakups, the nuances of working in hospitality, identity, and the importance of small rituals and unsquashed spirits. Their candid conversation illuminates ordinary experiences—bagel shops, benches, buggies—with humor, warmth, and unexpected wisdom.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The “Bagel Shop Pattern” and Life Without Routines

• 00:59: The guest describes how their shifting work schedule at a bagel shop leads to a lack of routine.
  • "I don't have the routine, which means that generally I actually don't have a favorite [day], because every single one looks different pattern wise every single week." (Guest, 01:05)
• Day Off Fantasy:
  • The ideal day involves “thru-hiking” with a friend, emphasizing simplicity and connection to nature—tin fish for lunch, waking and sleeping outdoors.
  • "My dream day would be I would be on a thru hike...wake up in the tent...get out the tent and have a terrible breakfast and then we would walk all day..." (Guest, 01:59)

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2. On Hiking, Essentialism, and the Rules of the Trail

• Thru-Hiking Explained:
  • Carrying everything you need and wild camping freely (legal in Scotland), not worrying too much about packing light.
  • "I'm not one of those ultralight campers...I'm going to bring the head scarf thing with me." (03:22)
• Scottish Outdoor Code:
  • Simple rules: close gates, leave no trace, don’t disturb wildlife.
  • "Leave no trace works as an umbrella for the whole thing, really." (Guest, 04:37)

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3. Gates—Literal and Metaphorical

• Literal Gate:
  • The most important gate closed was at home, to keep their childhood dog safe.
• Metaphorical Gates:
  • Life often closes metaphorical gates (endings, decisions) for us.
  • "Even when you make...a big decision in the moment...it feels less like a decision and more like a thing happening.” (Guest, 05:54)
  • Discusses a major friendship breakup.
  • "That was at the time, tough. But now...I know that I'm much better off. And I think that she probably, somewhere is as well." (Guest, 06:21)

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4. Friendship and Relationship Breakups

• 06:47: Friendship breakups are examined as under-discussed but deeply affecting.
  • The guest narrates finding “their people” late in school and a close friendship complicated by creative jealousy.
  • "A lot of resentment built up...it became so unpleasant that we couldn't really remain friends.” (Guest, 09:03)
  • Notable insight: "I really think it's okay for things to end...It's not always a tragedy.” (Guest, 11:28)
• Relationship breakups:
  • The guest advocates "firm it" (going no contact) for healing, contrasted with Tom’s view that, especially with kids, post-romantic relationships can evolve positively.
  • "I'm a big no contact person." (Guest, 13:24)
  • "There could be a chance of creating something, a 2.0 scenario, which is beneficial for everybody." (Tom, 14:14)
• Breakups Resonate:
  • Multiple anecdotes of friendships and relationships ending, with honest reflection on pain and personal growth.
  • “Every single feeling you could possibly feel in a romantic context, you can equally feel by yourself, walking to work.” (Guest, 57:20)

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5. On Identity, Being Ginger, and Unsquashed Spirits

• 20:30: The guest shares a lifelong clear sense of self, attributed to supportive parenting.
  • “My mum...just never squashed anything.” (Guest, 21:09)
• Being Ginger:
  • Experiences of bullying in school, but adult life redeemed the uniqueness.
  • "The nice thing about being bullied...the adults in my life were so nice to me about it that I did have a centering force." (Guest, 18:22)
• Sense of Self:
  • Despite hardships (teachers, peers), the guest has maintained their authentic self and reflects this in creative and daily life.

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6. Life and Lessons from the Bagel Shop

• 24:18: Only two months into the bagel world, but already full of observations:
  • Pleasant surprises in hospitality, especially working with a majority-women team and an affirming supervisor.
  • On tricky customers and adjusting to London:
    • "I think London customers are much ruder than Scottish customers." (Guest, 25:53)
  • Biggest “rookie” moment:
    • Being “called out” online for repeatedly confirming bagel toasting preference on the till.
  • Bagel tips:
    • “If you go to a bagel shop and you know they're making their bagels fresh, don't get it toasted.” (Guest, 30:01)
    • The hardest sandwich? “Vegan cream cheese—it’s a nightmare to spread.” (31:13)
  • Joy in friendly customer interactions, the significance of small acknowledgements.
    • "When I try to have a little moment and they're just like, 'Give me the salt beef,' ... why? Who do you think you're talking to?" (Guest, 33:03)
    • Notable memory: "It's all gonna be worth it one day." (Customer to guest, 34:05)

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7. Buggies, Periscopes, and Cosmic Moments

• Buggies: The guest’s pride in their ability to identify folding mechanisms:
  • "Every time I see a buggy, if a buggy went past, I could tell you immediately how foldable it is." (Guest, 36:07)
• Periscopes:
  • Lighthearted discussion about missing a regular customer due to lack of a periscope—
    • “Trust that your heart is pure. Get a periscope.” (Tom, 38:24)
• Cosmic Buggy-Ordering:
  • Five buggies ceremoniously pass by, delighting both host and guest, marking a ‘cosmic ordering’ moment.

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8. Moving, Creating Home, and Minimalism

• On Moving to London:
  • The significance of the third "big move”, the bittersweetness of leaving home, and insights on creating a new sense of place.
  • "As I said, I have a really strong sense of...what the right thing is in the moment." (Guest, 43:53)
• Home Setup & Minimalism:
  • The guest is candid about not decorating much—partly from guilt, partly from not wanting to “plaster my new life” with the old.
  • "Everyone that comes goes, ‘what the hell is your bedroom?’...I don't want to have loads of stuff from my old life plastering my new life." (Guest, 53:02)
  • Objects of meaning: photos, conkers for spiders, a Robert Burns quote, a tile from an ex.

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9. Romance, Contentment, and Drinking from Life’s Spring

• Past relationships:
  • Describes the realization that being single can be as fulfilling as being romantically involved, and that life’s joys are not conditional on partnership.
  • “Life is a spring, you just need to drink from it.” (Guest, 57:24)
  • "I can genuinely say that the level of content and, like, euphoria and wonder that comes into my body these days easily matches times when I’ve been really properly in love." (Guest, 58:13)
• Modern romance:
  • The guest is forthright about their current, more relaxed approach to dating—showing Tom their “good for once” Hinge profile.

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10. The Power of Small Rituals and Benches

• The calming effect of benches and green spaces:
  • "It's not the only thing that calms my body down, but it's the only thing that always calms my body down." (Guest, 40:37)
• The view from the bench:
  • Expressively described as a blend of cityscape and nature, with symbolic “three trees and a frame of two big trees; two small trees like twins.” (62:00)
• Affectionate pet names:
  • Debates about calling customers “Sunshine,” “Charmer,” or “Daffodil”; the importance of kindness and human connection even in brief encounters.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Friendship Breakups:
  • "Friendships need to end. I think relationships need to end. I think we go through cycles in the world. It's not always a tragedy." (Guest, 11:33)
• On No Contact Post-Breakup:
  • "I'm a big no contact person." (Guest, 13:24)
• On Identity and Parenting:
  • "My mum...just never squashed anything...we are all quite unsquashed." (Guest, 21:09)
• On Minimalism:
  • "I do have a bit of a fear of buying things. It makes me feel horrendously guilty when I buy anything." (Guest, 47:34)
• On Love and Contentment:
  • "Every single feeling...in a romantic context, you can equally feel by yourself, walking to work." (Guest, 57:20)
  • "Life is a spring, you just need to drink from it." (Guest quoting, 57:24)
• On Sitting on Benches:
  • "It always, always completely relaxes me...it's just the big trees. I just. I feel like a human being again and not like a scared..." (Guest, 40:44)
• Final Reflection and Tagline:
  • "I think it's nice to have conversations with people on benches." (Guest, 65:06)
  • Closing poetic lines:
    • "Doors close, doors open firm rules get broken...Walk slow, Pack frivolous things they say leave no trace...but we all just wanna leave a [trace]." (Guest, 65:13)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Topic/Event | Timestamp | |---------------------------------------|---------------| | First discussion of routines | 01:05 | | Thru-hiking and essentialism | 03:04-04:13 | | Metaphorical gates/life decisions | 05:36-06:21 | | Friendship breakup & creative tension | 07:32-09:03 | | The value and endings of friendships | 11:28 | | Relationship vs. friendship breakups | 12:46-15:45 | | Bullying, being ginger, thick skin | 17:56-19:49 | | Knowing oneself, parenting | 20:19-21:14 | | Bagel shop life, customer stories | 24:18-31:29 | | Vegan bagel spread complaint | 31:05 | | Customer conversations & meaning | 33:03-35:21 | | Buggies and periscopes | 36:07-38:24 | | Moving to London, feeling at home | 41:18-45:23 | | Room minimalism/gathering objects | 47:24-53:48 | | Relationship closure & loving oneself | 55:36-58:13 | | Bench as a place of calm | 40:03-40:47 | | Pet names and customer connection | 63:13 | | Closing thoughts/poetic outro | 65:13 |

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Tone & Language

• The conversation is warm, candid, and gently humorous. Both host and guest foster an atmosphere of honesty, reflection, and mutual curiosity—marked by self-deprecating jokes, philosophical asides, and open-ended wonderings. The guest’s language is articulate and sometimes poetic, with a penchant for unique metaphor and witty asides.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This episode is an invitation to both the ordinary and the profound. Through stories of bagels, benches, emails, and periscopes, Tom and his stranger explore how we move through endings and beginnings—with humour, resilience, and a commitment to kindness. The conversation will ring true for anyone navigating life’s transitions, whether it’s a new city, a breakup, or the small but meaningful decisions about toast or schmear. You’ll leave with practical bagel advice, a few laughs, and possibly a new appreciation for your local bench.

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Transcript

[A]

Hello. Sorry to bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a. So you ready? First question. Yeah, it's an easy one.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

What are you hoping this first question is going to be?

[B]

Is that the first question is a

[A]

question but it's not the first question.

[B]

What am I hoping it's going to be? To be honest, just something easy. Easy, relaxed. Yeah.

[A]

And it is. Is there a day of the week that you favor?

[B]

Oh, it's a good one. So I work in a bagel shop and the shift pattern completely changes every week. So I don't have the routine, which means that generally I actually don't have a favorite because every single one looks different pattern wise every single week.

[A]

The classic bagel shop pattern.

[B]

Classic bagel pattern.

[A]

That's what they call it, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah, that's in the books.

[A]

Disorientated, you don't know who you are.

[B]

Yeah. Every day is kind of a Sunday. Like this is a day off for me.

[A]

Okay, well let's, let's, let's play, let's play a small game.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Let's imagine this Sunday, which could be a Wednesday, whatever, you know, I mean a day free of bagels. There's not one bagel, not a single bagel. You've not even thinking about it. But basically, basically take me from waking up all the way through to going to bed, what for you is a really great bagel free day, so to speak.

[B]

Well, I love being in nature, so I think I would wake up in nature. Yeah, well, not in nature. Well, okay, if we're talking dream, dream day, then I would say this. My dream day would be I would be on a thru hike with one of my best friends and we would wake up in the tent and then we would get out the tent and have a terrible breakfast and then we would walk all day and then we would stop for lunch and the lunch would probably be like fish out of a tin, which probably doesn't sound like the dream to many people. And then we would set up our tent and go to sleep.

[A]

After lunch?

[B]

No, after walking for the rest of the day.

[A]

What's happening in this tin? Yes, funnily enough, I actually did have fish out of a tin for lunch.

[B]

Did you? What kind of fish did you have?

[A]

Trout.

[B]

Really? I've never had dryoverton. It sounds quite bold.

[A]

It Is really nice actually. Yeah.

[B]

Did you just eat it?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you? Nothing else?

[A]

No. Wow.

[B]

Good source of protein.

[A]

It's just like gets it done.

[B]

Yeah, you know, it really does.

[A]

Okay, let's go back. It's a through.

[B]

I'm through hiking.

[A]

What's that? As opposed to hiking.

[B]

So through hiking is when you've got a big bag and it's got your tent and everything you need in it and you hike. I'm Scottish. So in Scotland you can legally wild camp anywhere. So that's kind of my favorite thing to do.

[A]

What's the only non essential thing in this bag of yours?

[B]

Many non essential things. Yeah. I'm not one of those ultralight campers

[A]

that likes to have you just shove it all in there.

[B]

They like saw a toothbrush in half so that they don't have too much weight. I'm not like that. I'm like the biggest non essential. I was actually, I was thinking about this as I walked up here.

[A]

You're thinking what? As you walked up here, you're thinking about nonessential camping. Were you really?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Not even essential ones because that would be maybe make sense.

[B]

What I was actually thinking about is so. Because your hair gets disgusting when you through hike because you can't wash it. But then I was thinking, cause the weather's so nice and I'm about to hike Hadrian's Wall, all of it. Can I wear this? And then I was thinking, is that an essential item? How much weight would it take up? Would it be worth doing? And then I was thinking, who am I kidding? I'm not one of those ultralight thru hikers. It doesn't matter. I'm going to bring the head scarf thing with me.

[A]

This headscarf thing which we're wearing now.

[B]

Yeah, I think it will come.

[A]

I think you just shove everything in there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, it's your hike.

[B]

It's my hike.

[A]

There are no rules.

[B]

Yeah, there are literally no rules.

[A]

Are there any rules of a hike?

[B]

Well, there's the Scottish outdoors access code.

[A]

That's exciting. How much of that can you reel off?

[B]

Well, the nice thing about it is very simple. Close your gates. When you open the gate, make sure you close it again. Leave no trace.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

Don't bother any wildlife like lambs and things. And I'd say leave no trace works as an umbrella for the whole thing, really. Right.

[A]

By whole thing you mean life or just a hike?

[B]

I'd say that the hike. I think it can be nice to leave a trace in life.

[A]

Good point. What Trace, are you hoping to leave?

[B]

I just want the people I love to remember me as someone who's nice.

[A]

Well, that's sweet.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's good to get the big questions in early. Talk about closing gates. What's the most important gate you ever closed?

[B]

Okay, you want me to answer that? The most important gate I've ever closed. I don't know. Probably my front gate so that my childhood dog didn't run away and get hit by a tractor.

[A]

That's a good one. But let's talk about metaphorical gates.

[B]

Okay. Sorry. I'm a literal thinker.

[A]

It's okay.

[B]

The most important metaphorical gate I've ever closed. What the hell?

[A]

I mean, you can take your time.

[B]

The thing about the question that, like, to me is, I think there's lots of gates I can think of that are closed, but I wouldn't say that I necessarily closed them.

[A]

Oh, okay. So who closed them?

[B]

Life.

[A]

Life closed my gates.

[B]

Life closed all my gates for me. Like, is that not what it feels like retrospectively? Like, even when. Even when you make, like, a big decision in the moment, like many, many years later or even six months later, you look back, and I think it becomes harder to pinpoint the inner workings of the decision, and then it feels less like a decision and more like a thing, like, happening. Yeah.

[A]

What was this last big decision?

[B]

I had a. Like, over the course of the last calendar year, pretty big fallout with someone who'd been my best friend for about five years. And that was, at the time, tough. But now that we're on the other end of it and the friendship's kind of over, I know that I'm much better off. And I think that she probably, somewhere is as well. And so that's a metaphorical gate that I think we both closed.

[A]

Very interesting friendship breakups. You know, not really thing that people talk about enough, I think, oh, it does happen. And curiously, I actually have about. I don't know, a year or so ago, my first friendship breakup I think I've ever had in my life. That's quite. And I thought I was just immune. It's a friendship breakup. I thought, like, you know, like, that would just never happen to me. You know, there's always kind of situations where you think, oh, I didn't do that particularly well, or kind of, I dropped the ball a little bit there. And then you just assume that you can loop back round to some kind of solid place, but it didn't happen. So I can, you know, I'm interested in this friendship breakup scenario. Can you tell me a bit more about yours?

[B]

Okay, so in my sixth year of high school, I finally found my people. But my final year of school.

[A]

Yeah. Took a while.

[B]

Yeah, it took me a long time. It's not like I was.

[A]

Why did it take your settle. It just did.

[B]

Young people don't really know who they are. Right, Correct. So anyway, I find some people, I'm like, wow, you're all so cool. And then over the years, with time and breakups and all these things, like, some of them began to slightly fall away and that was okay. But my number one, like, she stayed and we were like watching videos online through Covid and we were maybe going to live together. And a lot of the friendship was actually long distance, but we were best, best, best friends. She was my person. She really was my person. Anyway, basically I'm a writer as well as someone that works in a bagel shop.

[A]

Bagel writer.

[B]

Bagel writer. That's what they call me. It's my Instagram bio

[A]

that'd be so good.

[B]

And there was just kind of an unfortunate tension between us because I'm active, I do it a lot. I have had.

[A]

So you do what a lot?

[B]

Writing, so.

[A]

Right, okay.

[B]

I've had some success in some aspects of the venture. And she wanted to be able to do the thing which is sit down and write, but something inside her couldn't for some reason. And that was actually, I think, a source of tension from the very beginning of our friendship, but I didn't really notice it. And I think a lot of resentment built up. And actually I have a very long email from her also explaining this, so

[A]

you know it to be the case.

[B]

So this is from her. This is not my, my. But basically she then became nasty. Like, it got to the point where I couldn't do or say anything. I was always pressing onto buttons of hers by accident. And I remember really clearly we were on a bus and she started saying, listen, you make me feel really insecure. And I said to her, darling, like, please explain the things I am doing that are leading to this and I will take the required action, like, because I don't want to make you feel this way. And she was never, ever able to name something. Like, I think she had a thing in her own heart that I was being held responsible for. And it became so unpleasant that we couldn't really remain friends, sadly. And right now we exchanged a few kind of long emails. And I just haven't responded to her most recent one because I think some therapy is required, to be honest. And I'm not a big therapy person. I'm a medium therapy person. But I think she probably needs to speak to someone who can try and help her.

[A]

I see.

[B]

And maybe we'll find each other one day, you know, maybe she'll do a bit of work.

[A]

I'm not still time.

[B]

But it just stopped being. It wasn't healthy for either of us. I don't think.

[A]

This is such a silly question to ask. This came into my head. I just wondered whether in these email exchanges, whether there's any. Any part of you deliberately tried to write the email not quite as well as you would normally write it.

[B]

No.

[A]

As a kind of way of not rubbing in even more.

[B]

But the thing is, I'm not a better writer than. The only difference between her and me is that I sit down and do the thing and she kind of can't bring herself to. So that would never be consideration for me at all. But I have to be honest. Her email to me, her first email was too long. I was like, you need to cut it down. You need to run it by someone first. Again. You're using me to try and figure out something inside your own heart, and I can't do that for you.

[A]

What is this? What is this? I mean, what have we learned for this? What's the takeaway?

[B]

I really think it's okay. I think it's okay for things to end.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think friendships need to end. I think relationships need to end. I think we go through cycles in the world. It's not always a tragedy. Sometimes everything will be better on the other side.

[A]

I really like that and I think it's true.

[B]

Yeah. And what I will say though is this wasn't my first friendship breakup. I had a completely devastating like, oh,

[A]

well, so you're well versed. Well, this is. How many have we had?

[B]

I'd like to say it's my second. I'm not serial, I'm not serious.

[A]

Every single one.

[B]

But no. My best friend from when I was about 11, 12 years old, he basically went away to university and never ever spoke to me again. No closure, no context. Ghost it worst thing that's ever happened to me. To this day, I lie in bed. He lives in London now. I wonder, am I gonna see him on the tube?

[A]

Any other romantic undertones there or just. No.

[B]

Well, my mum says if it walks like a duck and it quiets like a duck, it's a duck. She thinks that he was in love with me and then wasn't interested. But a few of my friends are like, that can't be true. So I have no idea what the truth, I don't know. But the reason I'm saying that is my first friendship breakup. I can't comprehend to this day. Okay, but now I've got a second. I'm like, the first one's under my belt. I have a bit more perspective.

[A]

How do these compare to relationship breakups then?

[B]

Oh, my God. Well, I don't know. I think relationship breakups are a different kind of thing. Right?

[A]

Are they different?

[B]

Well, yeah, I think they are.

[A]

What way?

[B]

Because are they different? Maybe they're not. Yeah. To be honest, I think it's just you have to firm it. And then once you've firmed it for long enough, it's like you're firming it slightly less. That's my feeling about all endings of all relationships.

[A]

You see?

[B]

Firm it, firm it. So like, you have to grit your

[A]

teeth and go, oh, I see.

[B]

Yeah, I'm a big no contact person.

[A]

I like firm it, firm it. Gotta firm it. You're a big no contact person. What do you mean?

[B]

I think that if you break up with someone.

[A]

Oh, you don't, you don't.

[B]

You shouldn't be in touch.

[A]

Yeah. Fair, fair, fair.

[B]

Well, do you agree with me?

[A]

I suppose it depends on your situation. I actually think that so recently, a while ago, began the process of kind of separation from my partner.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But I. And that couldn't. Because of. We had kids. We have kids. It couldn't be like, totally firm it.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

What's the opposite of firm it?

[B]

Chill it, stay it, touch it, keep going as friends.

[A]

Hang on. Thread it. Yeah.

[B]

Co parent. Successfully. Just keeping it going.

[A]

Yeah. I totally get the thinking about the firming it, the clean chop. You're jumping to the point where you hope you're gonna be eventually anyway. You know, you think, well, I'll just jump there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But my thinking is actually like a lot of these people, there's a reason why you're with them in the first place. Like, you may actually just get on really well and there could be a chance of creating something, a 2.0 scenario, which is beneficial for everybody. And I think in firming it, then you lose opportunity to do that. And actually, in a way, I personally have. The whole process that I've been through has been. We've been through. It's been like, obviously very complicated and challenging, but it's been worth it for the position we've got to. So that's, that's the, that's the flip side. But I Totally see. I totally see the thinking behind the fermit.

[B]

But the thing is, it's a beautiful flip side. Right. And I think. Because obviously there are kids involved, like, it. It's really lovely that you guys have been able to.

[A]

That is a different. It makes it quite a different thing.

[B]

Yeah. Right. Because you just can't really. Yeah. In fairness, I've tried. I've tried the. Don't ferment. And I'm three years into my biggest ever breakup, and for the first year and a half, we were in touch. And I just think that until we stopped being in touch a year and a half later, I personally was not broken up. Like, I was not recovering or moving on or like, I was just. And in fairness, that was partly just because the proper boundaries weren't in place.

[A]

That's a long time to be not quite broken up. Year and a half.

[B]

Yeah. And the thing is, it's not like we were sleeping together or anything, but we were just like. I was definitely still in love with him for that whole time. I think he was still in love with me for that whole time. And then it actually got to the point where we were so still in love with each other that I thought we were gonna get back together. He sent me an email from Prague in the middle of the night.

[A]

Another email.

[B]

My life is scourged by emails. Listen, Anyone listening? If you're considering sending an email, just don't do it.

[A]

Anyway, no emails.

[B]

But he sent me an email in the middle of night from Prague. And he was like, no one in the world has hair like yours. Like, I go around the whole. And I think about you, and I'm thinking about you all the time. So then I called him and I was like, listen, we're gonna be in the same country again in about six months. Should we think about the fact that we're still in love with each other maybe in those six months? And he was like, no, why would you think that? You're being manipulative. And that's when I thought, okay, I think we need to cut it off now. So that's, like, contextually.

[A]

So he totally had forgotten about the Prague email.

[B]

Well, this was, like, three weeks after the Prague email.

[A]

Maybe that's just what happens when you're in Prague.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So romantic there. Also, what's wrong with all the people's hair in Prague?

[B]

Yeah. Literally.

[A]

We'll dis for everyone in Prague. While we're here. Because you mentioned your hair. Do you want to talk about it?

[B]

Ginger?

[A]

So you are officially, I think the first ginger person I might have found on a bench.

[B]

Are you being serious?

[A]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure.

[B]

Seriously?

[A]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure. You know, there might have been one guy who was an environmentalist, like a tinge of ginge. But like it wasn't like full, you know, fiery orange. It wasn't like the whole, the full thingy. What do you call that?

[B]

Ginger?

[A]

Is there a ginger spectrum? Is there a ginger spectrum? There's gotta be, right?

[B]

Yeah, there is, There is. I've never said out loud before, but

[A]

I suppose, is it a morally dubious question to ask you about being ginger?

[B]

No.

[A]

Like, so what has it meant to you in your life?

[B]

People were a bit mean about it at school.

[A]

Does that make sense to you at all? Because I think that to me that just seems absolute madness.

[B]

Rubbish.

[A]

Yeah, because it is like objectively the most striking and interesting hair color. It just seems bizarre that someone would try and mock that.

[B]

But you have to remember that like 14 year old boys hate everything in the world. That is striking and interesting. So such a good point.

[A]

I think the good news, maybe not just 14 year old boys, sadly. Yeah, maybe carries on.

[B]

You're right. Maybe it kind of says, luckily I've surrounded myself with a different crowd. But I think the nice thing about being bullied, about being ginger, was that the adults in my life were so nice to me about it that I did have a centering force of knowing that even though these people were, were being mean to me, it would be a mean pro. And it was because I got an email from Prague 10 years later about it. Love it, it just made everything.

[A]

There aren't many senses that stuff. The nice thing about being bullied was how bad was it the bully? Was it just like little bits or was it kind of. Did it get too. Does it get actually quite intense?

[B]

The thing is, it wasn't just the ginger thing. Like at school I was a bit. I've always had a strong sense of who I am.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so then I wasn't able to do the thing that I think a lot of people do to like assimilate and be not noticed. And then people would be just so horrible. The thing, the worst thing that happened to me with the bullying at school was that and this, this is so low level. But the boys would like pretend to fancy me as a joke that the ginger thing kind of came into that. Like that was horrible. And that really changes your sense of self and your perspective on like your own capacity to be loved when it's a joke in your Formative years. But it's. I do think it's been good for me in. In that I've got thick skin.

[A]

Yeah. I mean that's one benefit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's a big one. And you've still got ginger hair and

[B]

I've still got ginger hair. And now it is really a pro in my life.

[A]

Yeah. It's cool that I'm so. So what has it meant? Like what? I mean, like apart from the bullying and stuff, what, like what is being ginger meant?

[B]

I mean, very little, to be honest. It does mean that sometimes if I'm in a crowd and I want to avoid someone, I put my hood up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's probably the only time it has a tangible effect on my life.

[A]

You mentioned at school you said you kind of knew who you were quite early. Dawes, how early were you talking? What sense of self, you know, was it?

[B]

I don't really know. Like, I just. If you said, what's the luckiest thing you've ever had? Is the fact that like, since I was conscious, I kind of have known who I am. It's like in any moment I understand exactly who I want to be and how I want to act. And that's not really something that I am self checking.

[A]

Sure. You had a. You had a sense of your own identity.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Fairly early doors.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But can you think of any reasons why that might be anything that your pet.

[B]

My mom.

[A]

Oh, there we go.

[B]

Probably my mom. My darling mom.

[A]

How does she do it?

[B]

She just never squashed anything.

[A]

It's a good lesson for parenting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Don't squash anything.

[B]

Don't squash anything. All of me and my two brothers, we are all quite unsquashed. Unsquashed.

[A]

Can you think of something that you did which may have been squashed by another, but wasn't squashed by her?

[B]

Yeah, hit me a million things. Okay, again at school, you know who else hates people that are like, have a little bit of a sense of self and identity? It's teachers. So like this is the time when it mattered, when people would be mean. But I don't know, like they'd like awarded colors. So if you did a lot of music work, you would get awarded colors. And I did loads of music at school. Like I was, I was in the music department for like 22 hours a week. Like I was doing. Yeah. Like I was doing so much extracurricular, all that.

[A]

And what colour did you get for that?

[B]

It was blue.

[A]

Blue.

[B]

But so all these people got their colors, announced an assembly one day and I didn't get mine. And that was just. In the end, it was a mistake. I'm going to spoil the story. They made a mistake. But I sent an email to the head of our school. Yeah, right. And I was like, mate, I think I should have gotten these colors. And he brought me in for an. He brought me in for a meeting. I was. How old would I. I was maybe 14.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He got out the student rule book and he read to me. This is like something from film. He read to me, he said, in order to be granted colors, the committee has to deem a student exceptional. And he closed the book and he looked at me and he said, we as a committee do not deem you exceptional enough to be worthy of music colors. I was like, you are a mean, mean man.

[A]

That's so good. It is like a film. So perfect. Start of a montage, right? That's the start. The film then suddenly cuts to you like, you know, like playing at Wembley with your song called, you know, Not Exceptional.

[B]

Not Exceptional.

[A]

Not Exceptional.

[B]

So, yeah, that kind of thing happened a lot. And the thing is that happens in my adult life all the time because I work a little bit in theatre and so men are always saying, like, you're shit. I had a man, one of my academic mentors, who means a lot to me, actually sat me down the other day and said, you don't think critically about anyone's art, especially not your own. But the thing is, now I'm an adult, I'm like, that's a crazy thing to say. Moving on, moving on.

[A]

So they keep on coming. These.

[B]

They really. These men are scared.

[A]

Tough men with books.

[B]

Yeah, tough men with books.

[A]

That's. Crikey. What are they? So this is. But this didn't put you off anything necessarily?

[B]

I mean, obviously in the moment, it's horrible. And then they're in my head when I'm doing things right, like when I'm writing, sometimes I think I'm not thinking critically, but I am thinking critically. So it's just a nice little test for myself where I have to just reevaluate, make sure that I feel like I'm on my right track.

[A]

I mean, you're the world famous bagel writer. Nothing can hold you back.

[B]

Yeah, nothing. Not even a long, long email from my ex. Best.

[A]

Tell me about bagels.

[B]

Oh, bagels.

[A]

There we go. How long have you and bagels been a thing?

[B]

Actually, only about two months.

[A]

So it's fresh. I like it.

[B]

Fresh bagels. And the bagels, they're the best in London.

[A]

Oh, I love it. Now, what would I be surprised about? About a bagel shop? A bagel shop, you know, if I. If I. If I had to live in your shoes for, I don't know, day, what would be like, oh, my God, can't believe that. Or it could be. Maybe it's a pleasant surprise.

[B]

Yeah, I'm sure.

[A]

Oh, lovely.

[B]

Don't know. Have you worked in hospitality before?

[A]

No.

[B]

Well, then I'm sure would surprise you.

[A]

But I mean, I think bagels. Bagels specifically. I mean, I feel like I don't want to be. This is maybe a weird thing to say, but I feel like people who get bagels. Do you think the higher percentage of them are tricky customers?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that fair? It's a bit of bagelist there, but.

[B]

No, that's not true. I think because of the location of our bagel shop, there is a certain clientele and I think that clientele actually on the whole are very nice and. Very nice.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Saying no, listen, I moved to London.

[A]

Yeah. From Scotland.

[B]

From Scotland.

[A]

You haven't talked about that yet.

[B]

Yeah, In October, I moved.

[A]

Oh, so you haven't been here long? Amazing. Yeah, but keep going.

[B]

Anyway, so I moved to London. I've worked two jobs. I did some seasonal ushering on a kids show, which I loved.

[A]

Seasonal.

[B]

Seasonal usherings.

[A]

Okay, Right.

[B]

Yeah. You know what an usher is?

[A]

Yeah, I do, but seasonal.

[B]

It was just for Christmas.

[A]

Got it. Okay.

[B]

It was a kids show. I loved it. All these kids, they were so delighted, they were so happy. And then the contract ended. I immediately started working in the bagel shop. And you know what? Don't cancel me. I think London customers are much ruder than Scottish customers. That's my experience.

[A]

Don't worry, you're not cancelled. Yeah, it's fine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What's the rudest thing anyone said to you in the bagel shop?

[B]

Oh, great question. I got a complaint on my second day on TripAdvisor or whatever it is. They did, like a review because apparently I had to ask them several times as they wanted their bagel toasted, do

[A]

you want it toasted? But do you want it toasted? Do you really want it toasted?

[B]

Are you sure?

[A]

You sure? Like, why would you want to toast it?

[B]

It's just the till's confusing and maybe I asked them maximum four times when they were ordering if they wanted their bagel toast. But listen, imagine someone, some poor, like, trembling person on a till being paid minimum wage, asks you four times if you want your bagel toasted and you go home and you make a public complaint on whatever it is and. Yeah, not happy about it.

[A]

And this got back to you?

[B]

Yeah, it was posted on the work group chat. Oh, wow. I'm not that bad at my job and I would have been rude about it.

[A]

Did you say that it was your second day?

[B]

No, but in the review they said a clearly very inexperienced employee. So they identified.

[A]

So they knew you.

[B]

They knew that I was new and they decided complain. Anyway. Anyway.

[A]

Brutal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, yeah, being in a bagel shop, I mean, what's it meant to you? What's it done to you? The spirit, the soul.

[B]

Well, I love it because almost everyone that works there is a woman.

[A]

That's cool.

[B]

The boss is woman nice. And also I have a lovely supervisor. Not a woman, who I just think is a remarkable person who trained me so well and is just so nice. Like, I go to work and I feel like I'm in really good hands with my supervisor, which I've never felt before. And it's just such a relief because I know if I make any mistakes, it's okay.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, that's so nice.

[B]

Yeah, it's really, like remarkably good.

[A]

What's secretly the trickiest bit of, you know, Bageling. Let's imagine I rock up to said shop and I don't know you.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Strangers up tilt. Yeah, strangers. Until it's a new podcast and I rock up. First of all, am I disorientated by the choice? My. There's a lot of joy.

[B]

There's a lot. And it's.

[A]

So I've got to be decisive. How do you greet people? What's the vibe?

[B]

Hi, how are you?

[A]

Oh, that's enough. Is that what you do?

[B]

Yeah, that's what you do.

[A]

I say, yeah, I'm great, thanks. I'm after a bagel. And then you go.

[B]

I go, amazing. Have you been here before?

[A]

And I go, no, I've never been here.

[B]

And then I go, do you want a little tour of the tour of the items?

[A]

I'll go, yeah. And then then what happens then?

[B]

Right, so then I point out. Listen. Then I'm pointing out all the. So we've got schmears to the left.

[A]

Who?

[B]

It's like proper New York style bagels.

[A]

Oh, I see. I've never had that in my life.

[B]

Have you ever been to New York?

[A]

No, I haven't.

[B]

So you've never been to New York bagel shop?

[A]

No.

[B]

So when you go, they've got like these tins that are piled with schmear. Schmear is like whipped cream. Cheese.

[A]

Okay. Right. It's all day, every day.

[B]

All day, every day.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

There you go. You've learned something.

[A]

I have.

[B]

That's the surprising thing about the bagel shop is that shmear exists. S C H M E A R. I might be wrong, but I think it's Yiddish.

[A]

Yeah, that sounds like a Yiddish sounding word.

[B]

Yeah. Anyway, so schmear. So if you want something sweet, we have nutella schmear, blueberry shmear, cinnamon and raisin shmear. The blueberry is the best. You can try anything you want.

[A]

Blueberry shmear.

[B]

It's so yummy.

[A]

What's that blueberry creamy cheese vibe?

[B]

Yeah, but it's whipped. First of all, it's like lighter than cream cheese. Texturally slightly closer to ice cream. But it's not cold, obviously.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's chilled.

[A]

Okay. Is that the tour?

[B]

Well, yeah.

[A]

So you say there's some schmear over there.

[B]

So I've got schmear. So you can have shmear in a bagel. You can also add any ingredients you want. And then there's like a little ingredients list that I point to.

[A]

Have you ever decide for anybody just by looking at them? Does anyone ever rock up and say, look, can you just pick it for me?

[B]

I wish they'd do that more, to be honest. Here's the mistake everyone makes.

[A]

This is a bagelistic snake in life or just in the bagel shop.

[B]

In the bagel shop. If you go to a bagel shop and you know they're making their bagels fresh, don't get it toasted.

[A]

There we go.

[B]

Don't get it toasted.

[A]

And that's why you kept asking that guy if he wanted to toast it. You were just really sure.

[B]

Are you certain to do it?

[A]

I love it. If you actually did ask, that was just the minimum amount of times you asked people. Because the biggest mistake you'll ever make

[B]

in a bagel shop, literally, it's. They're so yummy that you don't need them if you're freezing. If you want something warm, maybe toast it, but. Nah, don't toast it.

[A]

So that's a pretty. That's a very good tour, by the way.

[B]

Oh, thank you.

[A]

Given the fact we're not actually there. You can see it's like we're there. I feel like I'm there now. I hope this. The person's behind me is not getting annoyed at this point. Excuse me. I'm on the tour. I'm going for the tour. So I've had The tour. Right. But I have indeed chosen what I'm gonna. Obviously not to coated. That'd be mad.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I happened, you know, by hook or by cook. Pick. What is the kind of most annoying order for you to sort out? What would that. Actually, what would that one be?

[B]

Well, if you're making lots of modifications, that's just a bit tricky on the till. Vegan. Oh. Listen, I respect vegans. I think more people should.

[A]

I'm not in the bagel shop, but

[B]

the vegan cream cheese is a nightmare to spread. It's so. So it's like face cream.

[A]

So that's the one. That's the one that would get you going. That's the one that knocks you over the edge. If it's a tough day. Yeah. Are you sure you're vegan?

[B]

No, because I respect. I respect vegan. I honestly did.

[A]

You asked me if I was vegan four times.

[B]

I just respect vegans too much, actually. I just think they're doing good work

[A]

out there for the world, even though the spreading is complex.

[B]

Yeah. Listen.

[A]

And it gets you down.

[B]

Yeah, it. Honestly, it does get me down. I hate doing it. And also, maybe it's a dairy intolerance and I don't want, like. I know that's difficult.

[A]

Are you dairy intolerant? Intolerant?

[B]

No, I'm very tolerant of dairy intolerance.

[A]

Let's get to here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was worried for a minute. How do you feel about. So I'm a. This is going to come as no surprise to you. What do you think? I'm going to say? I have no. I'm. What? You look like you're like.

[B]

I'm braced.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I feel like a sense of brace. I really. Maybe it's the way I'm. I'm. I feel that I just.

[B]

I'm Actually, that's really interesting because I hate tension. Like, I really.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Like when I don't know when a sentence is gonna end or like a story. I can't relax till I know the ending.

[A]

Sorry. Well, I know that now, so I'm not gonna delay.

[B]

I'm also delaying it. Sorry.

[A]

More tension. You like it, you hate it. What is it? Which one is it? There's tension. So I am a person, as you will guess, who likes to talk to people in shops. Right.

[B]

Oh, I imagine that.

[A]

And I always ask you how they are straight off the bat.

[B]

That's great. I love when people do that.

[A]

I think it's just important to acknowledge that you're dealing with a human.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But. Yeah. Well, I suppose what I'm asking is, like, how do you feel about someone like me? And have you had any particular conversations which have stuck with you, with people like that?

[B]

Totally. First of all, I think it's lovely. I always am really sad if I try and, like, have a little moment with a customer and they are like, even as simple as I'm like, hey, how are you? And they go, give me the salt beef. Why? Who do you think you're talking to? That happened all the time, every single day. But when I was doing my ushering, I was on the buggy park, which meant that we had to park all the buggies and then give all the buggies back. It was chaos. I loved it. It was actually one of my favorite jobs I've ever had. And one guy parked the buggies. Honestly, it was so fun. And one guy once gave me his buggy. And they always. The men, they love to. When we're taking the buggies, tell us they're heavy. They're not heavy. And also, we carry the buggies every day, you know, But I take the buggy, careful. It's heavy. And I'm like, that. I've got my prepared response. I'm like, I'm okay. I do this all day, but I'm friendly about it. I'm not rude. And then he goes. And this could be taken as patronizing, but to this day, I think about it when I'm commuting to work and I can't be bothered. He looked at me and he went, it's all gonna be worth it one day. And I was like, wow, it's all gonna be worth it one day.

[A]

So as you were carrying his Charles buggy.

[B]

Yeah, I was like. I was taking it off him. He was going into the theater. But there was just an earnestness to it. Like, it was like a genuine. Like, it's got. This is. I know that you've got this shit job right now, but, like, it's gonna work out.

[A]

That's so cool.

[B]

It was really cool. And it could have swung the other way. I could have been, like, off. Like who?

[A]

Like the way you say that. So crucial. Yeah, you're right. That could just be an awful thing to say or a really good thing to say. Depending.

[B]

Just energetically, just perfectly.

[A]

That's such. Yeah, that really rings. So I. I worked in a hospital when I was 18 for a year. So I suppose that's hospitality. Is that hospitality?

[B]

Yeah. I was thinking.

[A]

I mean, it's like, it's not that far away. It's like, patient facing some of it, as they obviously do that a lot. You see. Person. Person. And I only remember one. And the one I remember is, you know, had a little small interaction with her, and she just looked at me and she's like, you're gonna do a lot of things out of here that you're gonna do something. And at the time, it was really just, like, really just hit me. I was like, oh, yeah, That's a really nice thing to say. It didn't. Obviously, it's just literally one line, but

[B]

you feel it, right.

[A]

And you remember it.

[B]

It sticks. It really sticks.

[A]

Yeah. So here's to those people that. Yeah. But a lot of it's also just, like, just really solid acknowledgement, I suppose. Really solid acknowledgement is really nice.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And important, especially, you know, I absolutely hate having experienced buggies. I absolutely hate them. They're the worst. I really. I appreciate it from afar how annoying that job must have been. Although nowadays they do, like, drive like, kind of Formula one cars. Pretty much.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They're amazing. They can do all kinds of maneuvers.

[B]

Yeah, they're cool.

[A]

So that Elise is.

[B]

And the folding is unbelievable.

[A]

Yeah. Incredible.

[B]

The mechanisms. Every time I see a buggy, every single. If a buggy went past, I could tell you immediately how foldable it is.

[A]

Your buggy dies. Superb.

[B]

I could tell you how long it would take us to fold it.

[A]

It.

[B]

How easy it is to store.

[A]

Okay. When the next one comes fast, this is going to be your test. I'm not going to now. I'm going to s. How can we summon a buggy?

[B]

I've talked a huge game.

[A]

Yeah. That is, let's. Well, we'll wait until it comes apart.

[B]

Yeah. When it's visible, I'm going to.

[A]

And then we'll be. And then it'll be better. So interactions in the bagel shop, they tend to say, I want the sold beef.

[B]

Like, people are sometimes really friendly. I actually felt terrible yesterday because I was sitting out the front in the sun, just, like, doing some writing on my break.

[A]

Okay. I was on the break. I'm supposed to be out the front in the sun. Guys, you took the bagel for me. I was just out the front in the sun.

[B]

I was out the front. I had my headphones on. I was doing some writing, and a woman walked past. And to this moment, I don't know who she was, but she must have been a regular. And she was like, oh, my God. Hi. Like, pleased to see me. And I. And I didn't recognize. I didn't Figure out who she was. And I, like, was. I should have just like firmed it and be like, oh, my God, hi. Like, good to see you. But I just didn't. And I know that she thinks now that when she comes in that it's all an act, but it's not true that it's all an act. Like, I'm always so pleased to see everyone. I love customer. I actually love working in customer service.

[A]

You can make this back? Maybe find like, can you find out her name or anything?

[B]

I don't think I can give her

[A]

some more on her. Whatever the top. Yeah, top it up.

[B]

But the thing is, I wouldn't know her when she came in. This is the thing. Like, I don't know who it was that walked past.

[A]

You just got caught up in not knowing her?

[B]

Yeah. I don't know. The angles were all wrong. Like, I can't recall.

[A]

The angles were all wrong. Just say that. They say, look, sorry, I don't recognize you. The angles were all wrong. Like, what am I to do? I'm not gonna crane my neck. Yeah. Like, I haven't got. What are they called? Is it a telescope? The one who can push.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Periscope. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I'll be like, I'm sorry, I didn't have my periscope on me.

[A]

Do you have a periscope?

[B]

No, but I should get one.

[A]

What can you do with a periscope?

[B]

Look at things through it.

[A]

It seems a bit like to me it feels a bit dodged because it feels like you can look at stuff without it looking like you're looking at it. Does that make any sense?

[B]

Yeah, like, it would be really good for perverts, wouldn't it?

[A]

Yeah. So maybe that's not.

[B]

I just trust that my heart is pure.

[A]

That should be the tagline for the hot selling periscope. Trust that your heart is pure. Get a periscope.

[B]

Yeah, That's dumb. There's probably market in that now. You could mark it to the preppers. The world is ending. Get a periscope.

[A]

I said not. God, this is good, right? We're doing. Between us, we're starting to really sell this process.

[B]

We need to send some emails.

[A]

You're going straight for the world is ending life. Love that. I was going to ask you about.

[B]

What would.

[A]

No, actually it's backwards. Is it a bad question what you would do if the world was ending? No, let's not talk about it.

[B]

No, I actually think it's a great question.

[A]

Okay, let's do it then.

[B]

Wait, I can tell You, I would do. If the world was ending, I'd try and get home. I'd want to get home to my mum and my brothers. But after that, I once had a situationship and I asked him that question and he gave me an amazing answer, which I've tried to live by ever since. He was like, I don't think I'd change anything. He was like, I think I'm living my life exactly in the way that I would live if the world was ending.

[A]

That's sweet, isn't it?

[B]

And since then, I've taken the required psychological action to frame my life in that way.

[A]

I figured out a better question now, actually. This is good.

[B]

You're a professional.

[A]

Professional. I get there eventually. If not the first bagel, I'll get the second bagel. Do you know what I mean?

[B]

Totally.

[A]

So the right question is, like, if the world was ending, what, like small, innocuous act as. Maybe there's something that is part of your daily routine. Would you, like, really savor for a final time?

[B]

Probably what I'm doing, like right now, which is go on a walk to the bench. I sit on and sit on the bench.

[A]

Do you want to sit on this one?

[B]

I actually, my. My preferred bench is two benches up because it's. And there's like a triad of oak trees that two benches up is in. But it was taken today.

[A]

Do you ever say, just get off my bench?

[B]

No, I wouldn't do that. But this is nice here because it feels like you're at the beginning of this tree tunnel. But, yeah, I come here when I have a day off. I come here and I sit on. On a bench for a period of time almost every day.

[A]

What's the benefit of sitting on benches? You say for you, what's the point? Why do you do it?

[B]

It makes me. It's not the only thing that calms my body down, but it's the only thing that always calms my body down.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

It always, always completely relaxes me.

[A]

Like they say, fail safe.

[B]

Yeah, it is a fail. Like, when I first moved here, I was thrumming with the terror of moving to a new place just because my body wasn't used to the environment.

[A]

Good word, thrumming.

[B]

It's a great word, isn't it, to be a writer? Well, I'm trying to. And then I would come here and I would sit down. It's just the big trees. I just. I feel like a human being again and not like a scared.

[A]

That was good sound effects as well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Let's talk about moving from your homeland. Because it's very recent.

[B]

Yeah. Super recent.

[A]

And you've just declared there that your body was doing some stuff. Thrumming, even.

[B]

Thrumming.

[A]

In fact, I'm guessing you took the train now.

[B]

Yeah, I did.

[A]

You know, when trains leave the station, it just starts very slowly moving out. Do you remember what you were thinking about?

[B]

I was crying. And that's interesting. And I was at the time interested by the fact that I was crying because that was my third time moving out of my home to go and live somewhere else.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And it's the first time I cried.

[A]

Can you put a finger on that?

[B]

Well, the first time was when I was going to uni. And I think when you're about. How old was I? 18, 19. I think there's like a kind of drive to get away.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that was a bit easier. And then the second time, I was moving to an island in the Outer Hebrides called South Uist, and I left at like 6am and I had to drive five hours to get a ferry. So I think I was more aware that I was just going, like, I had to get in the car and drive, but. And both times I was going for, like, educational purposes. And then this time it's the big move away. Right. Because I'm not a student anymore. I'm, like, moving out to move out. Basically. That's what it was. I think probably, like, I'm not coming home for the summer.

[A]

How intense are these tears?

[B]

It was the kind of crying that's like, quite sweet as it's happening rather than, like, really wrenching.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I wasn't out of control, noticeable if

[A]

I was sat next to you. Yeah, yeah. And so you just steeled yourself.

[B]

Firmed it.

[A]

You did firm it. Firmed it. It's nice you can cry and firm at the same time.

[B]

Yeah. I think every time you're experiencing emotion and living and not completely giving yourself in 100% to the despair, you're probably firming it. You know what I mean? Yeah, we're all firming all the time.

[A]

Time. Yeah. And so as the trains go towards London, what are you holding in you? Like, what is the core of the thrum saying to you? Is it saying, like, this could go wrong?

[B]

No.

[A]

Is it just excitement?

[B]

No. I just knew it was the right thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

About four months previously, I'd come and stayed with one of my friends for a night because I got a ticket to a show that I wanted to see and I got off the train and I was walking to see him and it was like one of the hottest days of the whole year and I hate the heat, but I was walking and I was like, yeah, I definitely have to move here. I just know I have to. So as I said, like, I have a really strong sense of, like, what the right thing is in the moment. Not in a long term way, but in a kind of short term way. And I feel really strongly this is the right thing.

[A]

So can you put a finger on. I keep saying finger on. I said that just really recently. Finger on. Finding a new way of phrasing that sentence. Can you. What's a. Better than. What is better than a finger? Toe? Nose?

[B]

What about like a forehead? I think that's quite nice.

[A]

Yeah, the nose. Can you put a nose.

[B]

Nose, yeah, nose. That's cute. That's charming.

[A]

Yeah, because we're kind of getting a nose into it.

[B]

Or even a heel.

[A]

Yeah, heel.

[B]

I think a heel's maybe.

[A]

Yeah. Nice. Can you put. Can you. Can you put a heel on? Exactly. Like, you know why? You knew it was the right idea.

[B]

I think it's a gut feeling, to be honest. And I think one of the things that facilitates that gut feeling is actually most of my community is in London. Most of my closest friends are here.

[A]

What is a community?

[B]

One of my best friends. A community. Oh, God. There's like lots of different kinds, right. But group of people who you can rely on probably is the best way to define it. And there's a group of people. People here that I can rely on. So it didn't feel like there was any risk that I was going to be falling through any kind of nets of safety. Like there's plenty of people I can call and I do.

[A]

So now you live with humans?

[B]

Yeah, I live with a very good friend of mine, actually.

[A]

How is it to live with this person?

[B]

So fine, actually. So good right now. It's a bit of a shame because I. We're both so busy, we barely see each other, but we're really good friends and it's really nice.

[A]

Do you have any particular rituals which you do together which make both your lives better?

[B]

We were watching Heated Rivalry on a Sunday. You know, heated rivalry, I haven't seen

[A]

it, but this is the one with the hot gays.

[B]

The gay hockey show doing the hockeys. And that, I have to be honest, is great. Highly recommend, highly recommend. And I think people are giving it way too much stick because it's got sex in it. It's the 21st century, everyone.

[A]

Guys, come on.

[B]

So, yeah, but our ritual is we like Each other and we hang out when we're in the flat.

[A]

Anything that. Any bugbears?

[B]

No, I have a bugbear with myself, which is that I'm. This is bad.

[A]

Tell me, come on.

[B]

I'm not a natural shopper. I'm really bad at going to the shops and I mean like, to the food shop. I'm not a natural shopper. Right. So my flatmate, she finds it easy to buy things. When she needs something, she buys it. When she doesn't need something, she buys it. Right. I don't buy things. I, I.

[A]

What do you mean? Do you go to the shop or do you just. Is it that you just don't go?

[B]

I avoid going to the shop for as long as is physically possible. I can need things for like months and I don't get them. But what that is manifesting in is like an embarrassing divide. But, like, I need to emphasize the difference because she will go to the shop and come home with four Fairy Liquid bottles. And like, that's hard because then how do I do my fair share of the Fairy Liquid bottles? Do you know what I mean?

[A]

Five. You get five.

[B]

I have to get five next time. Right. But so that's the only thing is I feel like I am not contributing to the.

[A]

So you're just being perennially outclassed in the shopping department.

[B]

I'm being completely outclassed.

[A]

I feel like maybe that means it's like I can get it. Like, you go, like, what's the point?

[B]

Yeah. In fairness to me, like, I do think I make up for it in other ways. I bake lots of stuff. Things that she gets to eat. Right.

[A]

That's cool. What'd you bake?

[B]

Banana bread, mostly. That's sweet apple cake.

[A]

I like fruit in cakes.

[B]

I love fruit and cakes.

[A]

Can you let us do a. Because you did such a good tour of the shop, can you do me a tour of your room?

[B]

Uh huh. To be honest, again, because I'm not a natural consumer of things. Like, there's not that much in my room. There is things in McRatt Limited.

[A]

Have you got a fear of buying things?

[B]

I do have a bit of a fear of buying things. It makes me feel horrendously guilty when I buy anything. Anything. Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

[A]

This sounds like something to get checked out.

[B]

Yeah. But like, does it? I think we should all feel a bit more guilt about buying things.

[A]

Here we go. Here we go.

[B]

Should we not.

[A]

Here we go. I like it. I do like it. But like, are you feeling guilty about buying this essential item?

[B]

I feel at least guilty about buying essential items. I feel a bit of guilt. And like, I also. It's like that Hannah. Hans Hannah Arendt. Is that how you say her name? Like, she says, if conscience or morality is the act of sitting down and like, asking yourself the question, like, am I doing the things that I need to do in order to feel like a moral person or be a moral person or be good. And if you have that conversation with yourself and you can answer yes, then that's like a version of, like, that's quite moral, maybe.

[A]

Yeah, I see. So you have.

[B]

That might be completely wrong. Someone told me that at a party.

[A]

Do you sit any of that, mate? Look that way.

[B]

Is it a pram?

[A]

There's a lot of them.

[B]

There's so many.

[A]

This is your moment. Is that they've stopped there just to. Just to prepare.

[B]

You just see that one there? I can tell you that's two parts. And it's quite annoying to fold. Well, it's actually not that annoying to fold, but it's quite annoying to store because the two parts take up a lot of space. So it's the bassinet that comes off? Yeah, the bassinet comes off and then that folds and it doesn't even fold that much. It folds. Yeah.

[A]

So in front of us or to the right of us, there's, like, buggies just kind of waiting about 30 meters away from us.

[B]

I think those are small babies. I think they're all two parters. I think if I saw them coming at the buggy park, I'd be a bit like, this is going to take up a lot of our space. No twins, though.

[A]

No.

[B]

Like double buggies, which is a relief.

[A]

Here they are. They're turning around. It's a procession. They're going so suddenly. This is almost so perfect for this game is that they want you to see each one really clearly.

[B]

Yeah, I think they're all.

[A]

Here we go. Are they all the same?

[B]

I think they're all bassinets.

[A]

They're walking in formation as well. It's like. It's like they're flying like the mighty ducks. Like, I don't know how you get past them is that. It's like a. It's like a Roman legion or something. Here they come.

[B]

Snores really loudly as well. So annoying when I'm like, waking up and the. They're all too part buggies.

[A]

They're having a really fun conversation about their kids waking up at different points. I feel like that was, you know, a great moment of destiny. We just witnessed. Because like if I could have ordered anything, if I could have just phoned up, you know, someone who could just arrange anything at Shortlight. Look, can you just arrange five buggies? Five buggies in four in all, in formation. Comes kind of slowly past us. Like really, like really, really, really slowly. That'd be amazing. Thanks so much. And then. Yeah.

[B]

And that's happened.

[A]

And it happened. Is that cosmic ordering?

[B]

That was cosmic for sure.

[A]

Cosmic buggy ordering. Where were we before we started cosmic ordering buggies? I got so way too excited about that.

[B]

Oh, you're asking me for a room tour.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, thanks. Thanks. We know there's nothing in there because you hate buying things.

[B]

Okay, there is things. So like you walk in and the first thing you see is the side of my cupboard. And on the cupboard there's a poster from a show that I made with my theater company.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

And then there's a cursed mirror on the wardrobe. It's easier.

[A]

Why? Because it's cracked?

[B]

No, it's just like I can see it from my bed and like everywhere in the room. So wherever I am, I can just. Just like kind of too much mirror. Pout into the mirror.

[A]

Is that what you spend us time doing?

[B]

Yeah. No, but like it does when there's a mirror. You look at yourself.

[A]

Sure. What do you see when you look in the mirror?

[B]

Me.

[A]

Okay, great.

[B]

So then there's a window.

[A]

Let's keep going.

[B]

All right. Window. And then some fairy lights around the window that I got on Facebook Marketplace. And then a side table which is gray. And then there's like books lining the floor. And my steamer that I had to get. Yeah. Because I don't have any shelves.

[A]

Okay. You're not allowed a shelf.

[B]

Well, there's no room.

[A]

Too much buying. I couldn't morally buy a shelf. It would just be. Would be. Right.

[B]

Well, if I got one, I'd probably get one secondhand. Like you can easily get a second hand shelf.

[A]

And the floor is a shelf.

[B]

The floor is a shelf.

[A]

It's the shelf on the floor.

[B]

And then there's my steamer, which I need because I need to be able to see steam my clothes. And then there's a bed.

[A]

Well, you can. Sounds like you can. You know, you've got a bit of, you know, bedroom improvements.

[B]

Yeah, there's room for that in my life and I'm just. I like to slowly collect items. Oh, I had a new item which I think is charming. Which is my friend said the other day and he wrote a really nice thank you on a Post it note. And I've taped that up next to my light switch. So every time I turn my light on or off there's a, there's like a nice note from my friend. Yeah, it's really charming.

[A]

Okay, you take that. That's sweet. Anything else on the walls?

[B]

There is a postcard that my flatmate gave me when I graduated and there is another postcard that I got from a wine bar.

[A]

Okay, get some more stuff up there.

[B]

Yeah, I do. I need to kind of take some action. Everyone that comes goes, what the hell is your bedroom? And I'm like, fair enough.

[A]

Guys, do you think there's something. Let's not get too introspective about the lack of bedroom items. Items. Is there some kind of psychology behind kind of moving somewhere new and not making it like incredibly homely for a reason potentially.

[B]

And actually like I brought a lot of stuff actually that I could have put up from like my old places I've lived and actually made a decision.

[A]

Decision not to. There you go.

[B]

So it's probably a bit of a thing where I don't want to have loads of stuff from my old life plastering my new life. Although actually I should have said I also have a windowsill and there's a really nice picture of me and my mum when I was a kid. And there's a picture of me and one of my brothers and there's two conquerors to keep out the spiders. And there is a card which is from my mom that has a line from iPhone Kiss by Robert Burns that says but to see her was to love her, love but her and love forever. And then there's a little tile that my ex painted of a double bridge that I keep in my room visual at all times because I'm chill like that.

[A]

Wow, that was a very long sentence.

[B]

Yeah, that was a list. You could say it was a list of things.

[A]

You sped through that. But there's quite a lot to unpack there. Conkers spiders.

[B]

Yeah, it's an old wives tale. Okay, great.

[A]

Do you think, do you think it works?

[B]

Well, I've not seen spider in my room.

[A]

It works.

[B]

And also it's a psychological thing as well because I hate spiders. So I'm like, this might keep the way.

[A]

My second child also hates spiders so I might tell her that. And he's never seen one.

[B]

But I've not seen one. We had one in like our cupboard one day and that was fine.

[A]

Not enough conkers in there obviously. Yeah.

[B]

Clearly need to.

[A]

Need to up our game the next day. Is just full of conkers in Robert Burns line from your mother. Yeah. And then a tile from your ex boyfriend with two bridges.

[B]

It's a double bridge.

[A]

A double bridge.

[B]

It's called a kissing bridge.

[A]

Was this emblematic of your relationship?

[B]

Not really. We used to go to that place a lot and.

[A]

Oh, there was a said bridge was actually a real bridge. And you went to that bridge and

[B]

we saw the bridge and we wrote a collection of poetry together. And one of the poems was about the bridge. I just like it because it's nice.

[A]

That's poetry just there.

[B]

Yeah, I like it. It's nice. As I'm speaking, I'm like, maybe I shouldn't have that. To be honest, it's taken me a long time to slowly stop putting things from that relationship, like around my life. And this is the last thing. And I wonder what it would mean to not have it in my room.

[A]

Maybe this is the day.

[B]

Maybe. Maybe I should.

[A]

Maybe this is the takeaway.

[B]

Honestly. Maybe this is the takeaway.

[A]

Takeaway.

[B]

Maybe it needs to go.

[A]

So are you looking for romance now? What's ro. What is. What is. As in. In the romantic form. What does that mean to you? Or not? You still got these bridges?

[B]

Yes, they're still there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No, I think, to be honest, I. I had a really nice insight about this recently or as I was seeing this guy for about five months, it was fine. We. We liked each other. And then he ended up being like a bit of a prick in the end.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

He, like, invited his ex to visit him for three days. Like his ex he was gonna get married to 8 months ago kind of thing. So, like really quite okay.

[A]

And he told you that? How do you. How do you bait this?

[B]

He called me after she had arrived and he was like, gag crying, like after midnight.

[A]

What is gag crying?

[B]

It kind of does what it says on the tin.

[A]

As in like.

[B]

Like crying in a very visceral way.

[A]

The kind of. The kind of crying you didn't do on the train.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

But then what was his rationale behind inviting the ex girlfriend to stay for the night?

[B]

I think at the end of the day, beneath it all, he thought they were gonna get back together and he was gonna break up. To me after crying because it was like a week before Christmas and he said, I didn't want to tell you about it because I thought it would ruin your Christmas. He also said on the phone while he was crying that the reason he was so upset was because it was clear that she'd come and she didn't want anything. But it was quite nice for me because I really wasn't very bothered. And I realized, actually it had been quite a high stress situation that hadn't really made my life better. And then I was single properly in January, and I was like, you know what? I feel so good. It's taken me this long to realize, really this long, that actually every single feeling that you could possibly feel in a romantic context, you can equally feel by yourself, walking to work.

[A]

Whoa. Big line.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Tell me more.

[B]

I think that life is spring. This is an Instagram quote I saw the other day. Life of the spring, you just need to drink from it. But I think that's so true. I think we can all just choose to drink from the spring of life whenever we want. And for a while, in my head, it was kind of conditional.

[A]

Yeah. But he said, I mean, I really like that sentiment. But, you know, playing Devil's Avocado.

[B]

Go on.

[A]

Like, you can obviously just enjoy the spring of life, life anytime you want. But then, like, the separate spring of, like, romantic life, life, whatever it is. Love is its own beast. No, that is like, something to be enjoyed separately as well. Can you have both?

[B]

Well, yeah, you can. Of course you can have both, but you also. You don't.

[A]

But you don't need both.

[B]

I think, Speaking only for myself and only in a felt way, I can genuinely say that the level of content and, like, euphoria and wonder that comes into my body these days easily matches times when I've been really properly in love.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I think sometimes we meet people that help to unlock those things in our cell, but they're there anyway.

[A]

Yeah, for sure.

[B]

I don't think romance is necessarily essential. I actually don't.

[A]

That's a tagline.

[B]

Yep. I'm also going on a hinge date on Friday, so I literally ignore everything I say.

[A]

What's your profile like?

[B]

Great. This is the first time it's ever been good.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Yeah. Because do you know, I stopped caring.

[A]

That's the way to do it.

[B]

I literally stopped caring. And now I'm like, everything's so easy.

[A]

I'm going to ask you. You don't have to do it, but can I see it?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm very intrigued by, like, what people put. It's such a kind of, like, intense thing to have to compose.

[B]

It's the fundamental right. Can you see?

[A]

I mean, I can't.

[B]

That's what's playing the guitar. Which is not false advertising, because I. I can technically play guitar.

[A]

I can. I can Is that your head?

[B]

I don't think it's going to work.

[A]

It looks like you've got a really small head right in that photo. Is that.

[B]

I don't think.

[A]

Is that.

[B]

I don't think that it should look like that.

[A]

Why is it. Hang on. I can't see that very well. Can I take the found.

[B]

Yeah. Please.

[A]

Sorry.

[B]

You take it. You run away. That's what this has all been about.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah, That's. That's. That's. Yeah. Fifth grade. Okay. Then what do you say?

[B]

And then I say I go crazy for soup to get me through winter. Which is true.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

Then dating me is like being a character in a novel who slowly gains sentience but can never escape the pages they were born into.

[A]

Whoa. What a line.

[B]

It just. It literally came to me. I was like, I have to do this. That's so stupid. That's me and my brother on Burns Night. And then that's me with the Muppets Christmas Carol playing in a pub.

[A]

Very sweet. So there you go. That's a solid. I mean, that's all very solid.

[B]

I'm charming all of them. Having said, Got my phone out and seen the time. I. I need to go.

[A]

Time to go.

[B]

Unfortunately. I've had a really nice time doing this. I just. I said I'd phone my mom an hour ago.

[A]

That's completely fine. You need to phone your mum.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's one last question for you.

[B]

Oh, please, please ask it, actually.

[A]

What? Can we have like two minutes more?

[B]

Okay. Of course. Of course.

[A]

There's one thing I like to do before the last question.

[B]

Understood. Respect.

[A]

They're back. They've lost. They've lost two members. They've lost two members. What's happening? They've eaten.

[B]

I wonder what that says about the hierarchy.

[A]

Five for breath become three. And they're back. Let's. Let's. Let's hear them go past. Babies.

[B]

It's a different energy for the babies. It's cuz the. It's cuz the podcast is ending.

[A]

Maybe. Yeah. They're sad. Yes. What I like to do is don't say the name of the park we're in. I'm gonna say it, but can you tell me what we can see in front of us?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And how that makes you feel?

[B]

Yeah. I. So it's got the classic London park thing, which I love about London Park. You don't get this in other parks where you've got like a skyline of buildings that looks like the opening of a Muppet's Christmas Carol. All of the roofs of the houses and then the park comes in and it's a long area of flat grass with a nice healthy scattering of trees. And directly in front of us is like three trees in a frame of two other big trees. And then in the middle there's two small trees that are like twins and they have nice light green leaves, lighter than the grass. And one of them is kind of leaning towards the other. And then to their right, our left, there's another tree that is the same size as them but doesn't have any leaves. Summer is coming.

[A]

Very good.

[B]

Thanks.

[A]

It's very nice light.

[B]

Yeah, the light's amazing. Thank you, Sunshine. I'm glad you're here.

[A]

Thought you'd call me Sunshine for a minute, but I noticed the light. Thank you, Sunshine. That's what you call everyone.

[B]

That's a great pet name. I'm a big pet names person so I should adopt that one.

[A]

Do that at the Baker shop.

[B]

Yeah, I call them all honey.

[A]

Maybe have a different one for each other week.

[B]

Yeah, I like Charmer.

[A]

Charmer.

[B]

Hey, Charmer.

[A]

Sweet. What if they're completely not charming? That's funny then.

[B]

Well I probably. They probably don't get pet name status then.

[A]

Yeah. Right. Sunshine Biscuit. Sweet Biscuit.

[B]

That's a bit weird.

[A]

So they give new ones.

[B]

Okay, maybe like I think. Hear me out. I think daffodil's a nice one.

[A]

This. Yeah, give it a go.

[B]

I'll try it.

[A]

You can spread something around.

[B]

I'll test it out someday.

[A]

Okay. We reached the end. Yes. So final question for you.

[B]

Uh huh.

[A]

What are you going to do next?

[B]

Call my mum.

[A]

This weird guy sat next to me. Mom.

[B]

I'm sorry. I know I told you I'd call you an hour ago.

[A]

I'm moving back to Scotland.

[B]

I got distracted on a bench. I got distracted. Yeah. I'm gonna call my mom. I think I'm going to do some writing this evening. I'm working at the bagel shop tomorrow. What's the rest of your day look like?

[A]

What's the time? It's 3:40.

[B]

Uh huh.

[A]

I'm going to a restaurant tonight. Lovely. Fish.

[B]

One. Yum. Fish for lunch, fish for dinner.

[A]

Yeah, but there's not a huge window between now and then. So I have a little scan and see if I can like summon the. The energy to maybe get. Trying to get another person before I leave the park. But you know, I may just go home and think about. Start thinking about fish. Great. Well thank you so much.

[B]

My pleasure. Thank you so much.

[A]

Do you want to say? Anything to end anything?

[B]

I think it's nice to have conversations with people on benches.

[A]

Profound.

[B]

That could be your tagline. Doors close, doors open firm rules get broken Life's like long and tight Walk slow, Pack frivolous things they say leave no trace we write letters and books and plays we have headstones and bench engravings Share stories and make friends out of strangers Isn't it funny we sometime capsules to space don't know who may find them but we all just wanna leave a TR. Deny.