EPISODE 96: You and I Are So Different

Summary

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Strangers on a Bench — Episode 96: "You and I Are So Different"

Podcast: Strangers on a Bench
Host: Tom Rosenthal
Date: July 13, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this intimate and reflective episode, Tom Rosenthal brings listeners to a bench occupied by not one, but two strangers—an inquisitive, forthright man and his partner, Gillian, a thoughtful poet. Their candid conversation meanders through life’s greatest themes: mortality, love, partnership, resilience, and the art of living (and disagreeing) together. The episode explores how differences can both challenge and enrich a relationship, how trauma and history shape us, and how the small battles—like repairing a gate or quitting smoking—gain deep significance over time.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Meaning of the Last Question and Brush with Death

• Opening Gambit: Tom begins with his signature: “There’s a start question and an end question. And whatever happens in the middle, happens in the middle.” (01:04)
• Discussion of Mortality: The male guest recounts his recent near-death experience—hospitalization, major internal bleeding, and the technical marvels that saved his life.
  • “I just started bleeding into my gut... they gave me seven units of blood... they join the two together and it causes a clot. So that... instead of bleeding to death, job done. It was amazing.” (03:31–04:44)
• Curiosity as Coping: Despite his critical state, his instinct was to ask the medical staff detailed questions about what was happening:
  • “My way of reacting was just really inquisitive. I kept asking them questions as we were racing down the corridor.” (04:44)
• New Outlook: Coming out of the experience, he expresses deeper appreciation for “the sunshine, the green leaves.” (05:26–05:32)

The Nature of Partnership: Difference, Disagreement, & Growth

• First Pair on a Bench: Tom notes, “This is actually the first time that I've had two people on a bench with me.” (00:48)
• Characterizing the Relationship:
  • “Partnership is very complicated, isn't it?” —Male Guest (06:05)
  • “It involves sometimes having difficult conversations and usually you always... We always feel better afterwards, don't we? But they're difficult.” (06:05–06:23)
• Differing Worldviews:
  • Gillian has spiritual leanings; he’s a staunch non-believer: “She has an interest in spirituality. I’m an absolute hardcore atheist... it’s a fairly strong opinion, right?” (08:44–09:13)
  • “I say to her, but there are some things that we absolutely know. And she says, well, no...” (09:19–09:33)
• On Difficult Conversations:
  • “All the couples I know have different conversations.” (08:16)
  • They discuss the frequency and value of these tough talks, agreeing they’re essential though frequent (“every week or 10 days or something” – 08:21).
• The Evolution of Disagreement:
  • Early on, they clashed about feminism: “I said, being a feminist can be a victim position... Gillian just wouldn’t agree with it... [but] she said to me, actually, you were right about that. And I... thought somebody that can... come to see that there’s an alternative way of looking at it and acknowledge it... that was fantastic.” (13:26–14:43)

Partnership Later in Life

• Reflecting on Age and Timing:
  • “What does it mean to strike up a partnership at this kind of point in life?” —Tom (15:20)
  • Gillian: “Possibly a more open-ended exploration than it might have been earlier... a great combination.” (15:36 & 51:03)
  • Their 14 years together have been marked by negotiation, independence (“we've got our own houses”), and openness to personal growth.

Family Legacy, Childhood, and Parental Trauma

• Gillian’s Origins: She shares being born post-war, separated from her mother just after birth, and the shadow of war trauma on family dynamics:
  • “I just think of the war as responsible for the difficulties in my dysfunctional family.” (19:14–20:09)
• Male Guest’s Childhood: Born on December 31st, his memories invoke nostalgia for picnics, playful exploration, and the quirks of growing up near Newcastle’s Jesmond Dene. (21:34–22:52)

Addiction, Willpower, and Small Victories

• Gillian on Quitting Smoking:
  • “It was the most difficult thing I have ever done.” (24:49)
  • She credits a spiritual healer and trading one addiction (cigarettes) for another (chocolate) to succeed. (25:24–26:08)

Parenting, Divorce, and Remaking Family

• Separation and Its Toll:
  • Male guest reflects deeply on his divorce—a process fraught with emotional and logistical pain, particularly regarding access to his children.
  • “You see your kids arrive... this alternate weekend, and you’ve kind of forgotten who they are... then they go away and... it’s like you’re being picked up and then dropped... It was like a physical pain.” (35:19–36:37)

Poetry, Achievement, and Admiration

• Gillian the Poet: She’s described as a “proper poet”; her recent reading at the Festival Hall in London to 2,000 people is celebrated:
  • “I listen to the audience in every pore of my skin. That’s how it feels. And then if I... if they’re meeting that, that’s working.” (45:03)
• Notable Admiration:
  • Male Guest: “There was a weekend at Wordsworth’s house... She gave a writing workshop... She was a master of the situation.” (43:16–43:28)
  • “She read her poetry to 2,000 people... you read very well. It was great.” (43:39)
• On Poetry’s Vulnerability:
  • “It’s sort of like, you know those terrible dreams where you find yourself... naked... People feel naked when they write poetry... It’s a shame.” (46:23–46:49)

The Value of Challenge and Change

• On Growth Through Relationship:
  • Gillian: “The fact that in some ways you and I are so different—accepting those differences and having to not just tolerate another human being but open up to that human being and rejoice, that’s been the most important thing.” (51:59–52:23)
  • “You are important to me on my own journey into being more of a whole human being.” (53:13)

Philosophical Musings: Science, the Universe, and AI

• Wonder at Life:
  • “I am absolutely in awe of life. I mean, the weird, idiosyncratic ways that viruses come up, do things... Physics is pretty much solved... but then life, bloody hell...” (48:11–49:01)
• AI and Reality:
  • Male Guest’s next great puzzle: “I want an AI assistant to take on my to-do list and just tell me what to do... God knows where it’s going, but I do think it’s going to change everything. And about bloody time.” (58:08–58:31)
  • Critique of the economic system: “The only thing that matters is money... it’s not [the right way], but the world we’re in is really stupid.” (58:31–59:37)

Moments of Humor & Lightness

• Recurring "The Gate" Story: The oft-procrastinated garden gate, still leaning somewhere, weaves through the conversation as comic, tangible shorthand for all life’s unfinished business.
  • “All I needed was the hinges... and about ten pieces of nice wood... At the moment, I’m doing AI, so I’m too occupied with AI to get round to the gate.” (07:24–07:54)
  • “I’m going to research how to build this gate.” —Male Guest (59:58)
• Playful Bickering and Gentle Teasing:
  • “When these different conversations happen, it sounds like you need some kind of resolution. Is this correct?” —Tom
    “Yeah... So you need it differently. I’m right... Come on, you don’t understand.” (12:24–12:40)
  • “Why do women always know dates?” (10:44)
  • “You handle those situations. You don’t... it’s not a worry for you, is it?... You’re a mistress of your craft. I’m not in competition with it.” (45:37–46:09)

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Memorable Quotes

• On Facing Mortality:

  “I just started bleeding into my gut... instead of bleeding to death, job done. It was amazing. And people react to things in different ways. My way of reacting was I was just really inquisitive... It was fascinating.”
  —Male Guest (03:31–04:44)

• On Growth in Partnership:

  “The fact that in some ways you and I are so different. Accepting those differences and having to not just tolerate another human being, but open up to that human being and rejoice, that's been the most important thing.”
  —Gillian (51:59–52:23)

• On Poetry and Vulnerability:

  “I always feel like the poem’s like a bowl... it contains what you’re saying and, desperately, about yourself and the most intimate things in your life. Somehow it’s protected because it’s [contained].”
  —Gillian (47:03)

• On Life’s Complexity:

  “Life is complicated, isn’t it?”
  —Male Guest (31:29)

• On Parenting After Separation:

  “You see your kids arrive, this alternate weekend, and you've kind of forgotten who they are... then you get back in touch... then they go away... It's like you're being picked up and then dropped. It's hard.”
  —Male Guest (35:19–36:37)

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Notable Timestamps for Key Segments

• Near-death hospital story: 02:14–04:44
• On partnership, disagreement & mutual respect: 06:05–12:14
• Feminism and learning from each other: 13:26–14:43
• Gillian’s post-war childhood and family trauma: 18:44–20:09
• Difficulties and healing after divorce: 35:19–36:37
• Admiring each other—poetry reading & spirit in hospital: 41:09–44:39
• Philosophy, spirituality, atheism, and how they negotiate difference: 08:44–09:13
• Gillian’s process quitting smoking: 24:36–25:24
• Discussion about AI and the future: 58:08–59:37
• Heartfelt reflections during “reverse interview” segment (Tom leaves bench): 50:30–57:00

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Final Reflections

The episode closes on a characteristically light yet profound note. Tom returns from his brief walk, and the couple recognize how rare and valuable it is to share such a candid public conversation about their inner lives. As Tom asks his “final” springboard question—“What are you going to do next?”—the answers are both practical and philosophical: Gillian seeks the nearest loo, while the male guest pledges to finally research the garden gate. The interchange elegantly embodies their dynamic—earthy, playful, philosophical, sincere.

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A beautifully honest slice of life, “You and I Are So Different” is a testament to the value of enduring partnership, the power of conversation, and the perpetual possibility of change—no matter your age, history, or unfinished to-do lists.

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Transcript

[Tom]

Hello.

[Male Guest]

Sorry to bother you.

[Tom]

Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench, where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a. Do you want to know something funny?

[Male Guest]

Go on.

[Tom]

This is actually the first time that I've had two people on a bench with me.

[Male Guest]

All right.

[Tom]

And not just one.

[Gillian]

One.

[Male Guest]

Okay.

[Tom]

But, you know, all walls are supposed to be broken.

[Male Guest]

Just got to go with the flow.

[Tom]

Just got to go with it. Should I tell you how this works?

[Male Guest]

Yes, go.

[Tom]

There's a start question and an end question. Okay. And then whatever happens in the middle happens in the middle.

[Male Guest]

That sounds like life born, something die.

[Gillian]

Yeah, exactly.

[Tom]

This is so true. So, yes, there's a start question. You live and you die. What do you want the last question to be before you die?

[Male Guest]

I know what I don't want it to be. Don't ask me, you know, what did you achieve in your life? Kind of want to go on a high note.

[Tom]

Well, that's a question you don't want to be asked. What question do you want to be asked?

[Male Guest]

What would I like to be asked? Oh, God,

[Interjector]

yeah.

[Male Guest]

See, if I had time to answer it, it would be like, how the hell do we make the world work? That would be the question. Right.

[Tom]

That's because you want to be asked as your final question before you die.

[Male Guest]

I'd like to answer it.

[Tom]

How the hell do you make the world work? Maybe that would keep you alive and then you actually wouldn't die.

[Male Guest]

Yeah.

[Tom]

Where do you want to die, out of interest? Any place.

[Male Guest]

I'm not planning to die.

[Tom]

I'm not hoping you do, but do you have a place where you'd like that to happen?

[Male Guest]

I mean, always. Always lived around here. I was ill 18 months ago. I very nearly died. And I was in the Freeman, and the people in the Freeman were lovely. So, you know, that seems like quite a good place. The Freeman Hospital. Freeman Hospital, yeah.

[Tom]

So you almost got that last question.

[Male Guest]

You always got the chance to be, and. Yeah, it was wonderful. It was great. It was amazing. I was. I got shingles, and then I had pain in my gut. And then one day I just collapsed. And they. My brothers and Jillian got me into hospital.

[Interjector]

They were.

[Male Guest]

They were doing tests on me and stuff. And then I'm lying in. In the bed, in.

[Gillian]

In.

[Male Guest]

In the hospital. My son is sitting at my feet, and I said to him, I feel a bit strange. Could you get someone so I did. The last thing I saw was him walking down. And the next thing I know is, like, there's sirens going. There's like 10 people around me. I'm looking up at the ceiling and they're putting. Putting a drip into me. And. And I hear somebody say, major bleed.

[Tom]

Not the words you want to hear.

[Male Guest]

Not the words you want to hear,

[Tom]

unless your name is Major bleed. So I'm gonna. There's gotta be one out there somewhere.

[Male Guest]

I just started bleeding into my gut. I mean, oh, crikey. Fortunately, they were going to do a scan of me that evening, and they had a bunch of radiologists and people in the hospital. And so the next thing I know, my bed is racing down the corridor. You know that thing where you see the tiles going whiz, whiz, whiz. I'm in the lift down in Intervention Radiology. So they got me in there and then there was like a business meeting. They were just so businesslike and organized. Okay, have we got that? Okay, as John, as you have that. They sounded so together and they said, they come around to me and they say, well, we'd like to put you to sleep, if that would be all right. Do I have a choice? Next thing I know is sort of. It's 11 o' clock the following morning. And what they'd done was they had stuck a tube up inside an artery into the gut which was bleeding. They gave me seven units of blood, which. That's a whole person's worth of blood. And they put a wire up inside the artery and they sort of push it out the end of a tube and it comes out, it sort of tangles itself into a knot and then they put another one and they join the two together and it clot. It causes a clot. So that, that. And then instead of bleeding to death, job, job done. It was amazing. And people react to things in different ways. My. My way of reacting to this was I was just really inquisitive. I kept asking them questions as we. As we're racing down the corridor. And I was just. It was. It was fascinating.

[Tom]

Is that your way of coping?

[Gillian]

Of course.

[Male Guest]

I guess. Well, I think I'm just interested in

[Tom]

stuff, you know, Even if you're dying? Well, yeah, it's a prevalent question, what you would be asked for the last question.

[Male Guest]

And people in the hospital kept saying to me, well, so what's your job? Were you a medic? No, I'm just inquisitive.

[Tom]

So you were about to die, but now you're alive and you Came out of the hospital with a new lease of life.

[Male Guest]

New lease of life? Yeah. I mean, I always. I always thought life was wonderful, but it is. Life is.

[Tom]

It is good.

[Male Guest]

Look at this sunshine. Look at the green leaves.

[Gillian]

And

[Male Guest]

clearly the trees don't know just how bad things get. And they. They're quite. You're living in ignorance. Well done.

[Tom]

So true. So, tr. May I ask this? As we established the first time I've spoken to two people on a bench. Can you describe who this person is to you?

[Male Guest]

This is Gillian. She's my partner. We're partners, aren't we, Jillian? Doubt. Partnership is very complicated, isn't it? It is complicated. It involves sometimes having difficult conversations and usually you always. We always feel better afterwards, don't we? But they're difficult.

[Tom]

What kind of difficult conversations are you having? Oh, God.

[Male Guest]

What do we talk about? Difficult?

[Gillian]

I mean, very differently.

[Male Guest]

We do. That's right.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Male Guest]

Jillian's a poet, if I may allow to say that.

[Tom]

You can say whatever you want, Julian.

[Male Guest]

She's a proper poet. And which I'm not. I. I'm. Yeah.

[Tom]

You famously hate poetry.

[Male Guest]

Not at all. No. No, no, no, no. But I am ignorant.

[Tom]

Have you written. Have you written a poem about this stranger?

[Gillian]

Several. Several.

[Tom]

Several. Do they flow out easy? Do they come easy?

[Gillian]

Well, there's one that introduces the last book that started life as a haiku and describes how Tom took the old garden gate off its hinges. And this was about three more years ago, intending to repair it. And it still hangs standing against the

[Tom]

house wall in the garden, where the intention is there. You know. Can you explain yourself with this garden gate and the hinges?

[Male Guest]

I have a lot of things to do. All I. All I needed was the hinges, basically. The hinges and the. And the. The knob that you get in through the door through the gate with. And, and. And. And about 10 pieces of. Of nice wood.

[Tom]

So you're waiting. So you're waiting to get this particular.

[Male Guest]

Well, I. At the moment, I'm doing AI, so, you know, so I'm too occupied with. I'm too occupied with AI to get round to the gate.

[Tom]

What would inspire you to do the gate? What do you think would have to happen?

[Male Guest]

This podcast. That's the last question. When are you going to get that gate done?

[Tom]

Did you do the gate? You can't die without that.

[Male Guest]

No.

[Tom]

So, so far, what I know about your partnership is Gillian has written some poetry about you. You have difficult conversations.

[Male Guest]

All the couples I know have different conversations.

[Tom]

By the way, what percentage of your conversations are difficult?

[Male Guest]

Oh, no, it happens every a week or 10 days or something. We might have. Yeah.

[Gillian]

It's fairly frequent.

[Tom]

Okay.

[Male Guest]

Fairly frequently.

[Tom]

What do you think kicks it off, may I ask?

[Male Guest]

What do we have conversations about? You live together, Gillian some of the time we do.

[Gillian]

We got our own houses. Mine's down near Durham. Okay.

[Male Guest]

Yeah. Gillian is. She would describe herself as not being a Christian, but of being close to the Christian tradition. Would that be okay? And she has an interest in spirituality. I'm an absolute hardcore atheist. Really? I'm not a hardcore atheist. That is. I'm not a believer. That's not my faith. It's not my faith that there is no God. I. I just. That's my opinion. But it's a fairly strong opinion. Right?

[Tom]

You're backing it.

[Male Guest]

I'm backing it.

[Tom]

So how. So is this a point of. So this is a genuine point of contention between you both?

[Male Guest]

So a point of contention we've had. I say to her, but there are some things that we absolutely know. And she says, well, no, we both studied philosophy. Okay, Right.

[Gillian]

Not together.

[Tom]

Yes. But separately.

[Male Guest]

And I say, you know, for goodness sake, 2 and 2 is 4. And then. I don't know what you say then, because I don't understand it. But it results in me thinking she doesn't agree with me at 2 and 2 is 4.

[Gillian]

Or she doesn't agree with me to think I'm stupid.

[Male Guest]

See, now we're starting. Here we go.

[Tom]

Here we go. I don't even need to be here.

[Male Guest]

That's right.

[Tom]

I'll give Jillian the other microphone. I'll just have a little walk and I'll come back in an hour and see what's happening.

[Male Guest]

I honestly think sometimes we have conversations, and I think you could. This is just a film script anyway.

[Tom]

This is the moment. You've wished it into existence. Okay. I mean, I'm now intrigued how. How long you've been what you call a partnership.

[Gillian]

This is our 14th year. We started.

[Tom]

Okay, Christmas.

[Gillian]

So we're Christmas whenever it.

[Male Guest]

2013.

[Gillian]

Yes, 2013.

[Tom]

So on Christmas Day itself.

[Gillian]

No, the 27th.

[Male Guest]

Oh. Why do women always know dates? Yeah, but I. I went to see her and we. We played Scrabble, didn't we? That was. That was it. That was. That was. That closed the deal.

[Tom]

Scrabble travel for the win. Did you finish the game?

[Male Guest]

Yeah.

[Gillian]

Oh, yes. More than one we had, didn't we?

[Tom]

Oh, fantastic. So you finished the game, and did you do a kind of formal handshake to the Clare partnership?

[Male Guest]

No.

[Gillian]

He did. He made potato cheese for supper at about 1:00 clock in the morning in my house, because I'd entertained a lot over Christmas, I had no food Left on the 27th.

[Tom]

I see.

[Male Guest]

Except potatoes, potato and cheese.

[Tom]

So you had potato cheese at one o' clock in the morning after two games of Scrabble.

[Male Guest]

And we burned all Gillian's firewood, haven't we?

[Gillian]

Yes. Yeah.

[Male Guest]

So there you go.

[Tom]

And 14 years later, and, you know, by my calculations, you know, if you're having a difficult conversation every week, we've

[Male Guest]

had hundreds and hundreds.

[Tom]

That's getting towards a thousand difficult conversations.

[Male Guest]

We've resolved a lot of things, though, haven't we? We have sorted out a lot of difficulties, definitely.

[Interjector]

Yeah.

[Male Guest]

It's also been interesting for me because I've always taken a fairly crisp approach to people who didn't agree with me. And I've had to learn to sort of.

[Tom]

What is it about the way Gillian has disagreed with you that's meant that it's worked, whereas before it hadn't.

[Male Guest]

She's persisted. The thing is, I'm happy to get into a fight if I win, but if I get into a fight and it just goes nowhere, well, you know, it gets a bit tedious.

[Tom]

Yeah, yeah. When these different conversations happen and it sounds like you need some kind of resolution. Is this correct?

[Gillian]

Yeah.

[Male Guest]

So you need it differently. I'm right. Thomas, you know.

[Tom]

Come on. You don't understand

[Male Guest]

what's the matter with you.

[Tom]

So for what has to happen, for you to be content, does Gilly need to say you are? I agree with you. You're correct.

[Male Guest]

Which has happened ever. Yes. Has that ever happened?

[Gillian]

We tacitly agree to differ.

[Male Guest]

We get to a point where whatever it is that we're talking about, we kind of resolved. Has got a lot. A lot easier. I mean, early on, when we got together, we had a conversation about. It wasn't about feminism, but it was about. It was about feminism. It was about that. How can I say this? The feminists are right. Women have not been treated properly. We know that. Right, okay. In lots of ways.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Male Guest]

So there is. Well, no, not a. But. No, I mean, feminism. You can use it as a way to kind of make everybody else wrong, as well as it being a genuine, authentic cause that should be taken forward. You can use it as a weapon against people, you know, So I said something to Gillian about this. I said. I think the way I put it was. I said, being a feminist can be a victim position, and being a victim is a very powerful position because then, you know, the other person feels bad because they're victimizing you, Some people. And so, and then Gillian just wouldn't agree with it. So this is one night, next day we were going to see a friend of hers in Newcastle and I don't know if we actually had. This was, this was early, early on we went, you said, you said to me, actually, you were right about that. You know, you can use feminism that way. And I, I thought, if I don't recall, it's true. Yeah, you did. And I, I thought somebody that can.

[Gillian]

Some.

[Male Guest]

This is the thing that, that hooked me into being around with her. Somebody that can be very stuck in a position and then come to see that there's an alternate, there's an alternative way of looking at it and acknowledge it. I thought that was fantastic. You need that.

[Tom]

Even though, according to Leah, this could be some kind of fantasy of yours.

[Male Guest]

There'll be a discussion about this later. Yeah. Okay, so there you go.

[Tom]

So 14 years. I mean, it's, it's, you know, I'm not, I'm not saying you're, you know, not young, but you are not young. I suppose maybe that's what I'm saying. But I mean, this is a, this is a partnership. Later on in life.

[Male Guest]

It is, yeah.

[Tom]

That's fair to say.

[Male Guest]

Yeah.

[Tom]

Well, I mean, what does it mean to strike up a partnership at this kind of point in life?

[Male Guest]

I'd be interested to hear what you have to say about that, Gillian.

[Tom]

What do you say? What do you think?

[Gillian]

Possibly a more open ended exploration than it might have been earlier in life. Because what can happen now?

[Tom]

Interesting.

[Male Guest]

It's changed things a lot for you, hasn't it, actually? Because I think in the past you

[Gillian]

would have been pretty sort of, oh,

[Male Guest]

gosh, I don't know, you've become very willing to make space for me to be me. Something like that.

[Gillian]

Not at the expense of my feminism.

[Male Guest]

No, no, no.

[Tom]

How much space do you need to be you these days?

[Male Guest]

Me? Yeah. I'm not very tolerant of views which are stupid.

[Tom]

But you say that Gillian's allowed you to be more, more intolerant. Openly.

[Male Guest]

One area of massive intolerance that I have, and I still have in a sense, but I've modified the way I do it. I do not know what this word God means. There are Jehovah's Witnesses all around the place and I just don't understand how they think. Actually, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Baptists, more. I've said to them the view that you have about God, where God says, don't do this Somebody does it, not only do they get punished, but all their descendants do forever. That is not, that's not a God.

[Tom]

That's not on.

[Male Guest]

It's not exactly. And I mean it's like. So I'm not that tolerant of that point of view.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Male Guest]

And I have long conversations with people about that sort of thing, saying what the hell are you talking about?

[Tom]

And you have conversations with Jehovah's Witnesses themselves? Sometimes. How does that go?

[Male Guest]

Jehovah's Witnesses are really nice. I don't know if you talked. They're lovely and you know, so I don't

[Tom]

think reveal.

[Male Guest]

Definitely not. But the Baptists. The Baptists are a bit hardcore. So I, I don't shout at them, but I do say, you know, what the hell are you talking about? Yeah.

[Tom]

Anyway, you ready for the first question?

[Male Guest]

Yes, go.

[Tom]

The first question I asked people is what's your favorite day of the week? But you can't confer. But maybe you have to get. What do you think each other's answer will be?

[Male Guest]

Uhhuh.

[Tom]

This is a fun game.

[Male Guest]

Okay. Are you ready? It's like a game show.

[Tom]

What do you think each other's are going to be?

[Male Guest]

I think you're going to say Friday. Okay.

[Tom]

And Jillian thinks.

[Gillian]

I. I can't think of a specific one. Let me go for Thursday.

[Male Guest]

Right.

[Tom]

Are we, how far are we. Are we accurate? Any accuracy there?

[Male Guest]

I don't have a favourite day of the week. What would that be?

[Tom]

Are you Friday?

[Gillian]

No, my favourite is Saturday.

[Tom]

Oh, there we go. You're a day away.

[Gillian]

It really is my favorite in terms of what you do and.

[Male Guest]

Yeah.

[Tom]

Oh wonderful. Okay. Do you know anything else about your birth?

[Gillian]

Quite a lot.

[Tom]

Quite a lot. Okay. Can you say anything about your day of birth?

[Gillian]

I was born about 20 past 1 in the morning.

[Tom]

20 past 1 in the morning.

[Gillian]

It was a private nursing home post war. I was born in 49 and they took me away from my mother hop us one in the morning and kept me until the morning morning. And she said I saw you being brought in, coming in through the door, your little fists going like mad. And so I was angry.

[Tom]

Oh you're really pissed. Well, could you be denied, mother or denied?

[Gillian]

Yes, I think so. I mean it must have been that, you know.

[Male Guest]

That is nuts, isn't it? Taking the.

[Gillian]

So make what you will of it. I've been trying to make something of it all this year.

[Tom]

Did you ever ask mother about it?

[Gillian]

Oh yes, we talked a lot. I mean, you know, I come more and more to just think of the war as responsible for the difficulties in my dysfunctional family. And both my parents and my mother's parents had a difficult war. My mother's brother was a navigator in an RAF Lancaster and he was killed. A whole crew was killed. So that's. That was quite a hard war, I think. And I was the first child, so I. I got to carry rather a lot, I think, like, you know, I'm not the only person in our generation, of course, but.

[Tom]

Yeah, but that shaped the opening. The opening stages of your life and

[Gillian]

the rest of it.

[Tom]

And the rest of it. Yeah, that's a good point, actually. If it shapes the start, it shapes the whole thing, doesn't it, really?

[Gillian]

Yes, yes.

[Tom]

Just, just. We're just recovering from different people's traumas really, aren't we?

[Gillian]

Yes.

[Tom]

This is what life is. Well, anyway, that's why Saturday. That's why Saturday is your. Is your favorite day. What day were you born?

[Male Guest]

No idea. No. Well, I know, I can tell. I can tell you what day of the year it was. It was. It was the 31st of December and my mum. Apparently there were journalists around who were quite excited because I might be the last baby of the year, but I wasn't, so the first I came.

[Tom]

Is that what journalists hang around in hospitals for, the last baby of the year?

[Male Guest]

They're full of that sort of stuff. Yeah, that's what journalists do. And it's a drag being born on 31st December. It's too close to Christmas and, you know, you don't get your presents.

[Tom]

But also. But people are guaranteed to be celebrating subsequently on your date of birthday.

[Male Guest]

That's true.

[Tom]

So that's fun. When do you see the fireworks out of the window? You think it's for yourself. Oh, they're celebrating me again.

[Male Guest]

That's right, yeah.

[Tom]

So you don't have a favourite day of the week?

[Male Guest]

I don't. And I was thinking maybe you should ask which was my favourite month. I mean,

[Tom]

after about your favorite month.

[Male Guest]

This is lovely. April has been fantastic, hasn't it? With those. The beautiful little pale green leaves coming out on the trees. And the trees seem so happy. We're in the Dene now and the Dene is absolutely gorgeous. It just feels so rich and beautiful down here.

[Tom]

We're in Newcastle.

[Male Guest]

We're in Newcastle in the Dene. Jesmond Dean, which was bought by a guy who made his fortune from selling machine guns to both sides in the Sino Japanese war. I understand. I mean, that might be slightly dodgy history, but.

[Tom]

Oh, thanks. But I mean, but there is a

[Male Guest]

waterfall, so there's a beautiful waterfall which was blasted out with gunpowder. It wasn't like that before. He made it much more dramatic.

[Tom]

How did you end up in this, in this part of the world? Have you always been here?

[Male Guest]

Yeah, I was just dropped here. Yeah, my mum dropped me here. I was born. What? Well, I was born in the general hospital, so that was just three miles away or something like that. But I mean, most of my life actually I've lived away from Newcastle. But this is very much, very, very much home. Became those kids. There's a quarry you can scramble around in and stepping stones up the river you can fall in the water from and good stuff like that.

[Tom]

And what was a childhood Jesmondine day like?

[Gillian]

Then?

[Male Guest]

We would come down here with my mum and that piece of grass across there. I was just saying to you, we would bring a rug and an old wicker basket with, you know, plates held in leather straps on the. In the roof of. In the lid of the basket and. Yeah, Spam and white bread sandwiches. You know, those are the days.

[Tom]

How do you feel about picnics generally? You're a picnic fan.

[Male Guest]

Do you know? We haven't had a picnic. When have we ever had a picnic? Since we got together and I had one picnic. 14 years we should have had.

[Gillian]

We haven't really.

[Male Guest]

We've had walks. We had lots of walks and you told.

[Gillian]

Turned me back onto ice cream.

[Tom]

Oh, you got Julia back onto ice cream. Where had you been from ice cream? Why did you retire from ice cream in the first place?

[Male Guest]

It's your sort of thing, really.

[Gillian]

I didn't really. But we. We liked my sisters and I liked ice lollies.

[Tom]

Okay.

[Gillian]

And my mother was a bit suspicious of them because there was lead in the. In the wrapping and.

[Tom]

Okay.

[Gillian]

It was quite eco.

[Tom]

I see. Yeah.

[Gillian]

But. And then.

[Male Guest]

And then you got into Gitanes, didn't you? She smoked Gitanes.

[Gillian]

I ended up with Gitane roll ups. I absolutely loved smoking, as did my dad. And my mother smoked as well.

[Tom]

And did you give up at some point?

[Gillian]

Yes, 27 years ago.

[Male Guest]

Okay.

[Tom]

Did this coincide with the ice cream event as well? You put down the ice cube and the cigarettes at the same time?

[Gillian]

No.

[Tom]

But you. But you did give up. But you did give up smoking?

[Gillian]

Yes.

[Tom]

This is. Is that a good. Has that been a good thing?

[Gillian]

Well, no, especially. It's really good because if you have anything to do with medical people and you say, I actually gave up smoking and they are really impressed, which is hugely gratifying because it was the most difficult thing I have ever done.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Gillian]

Was dreadfully.

[Tom]

How did you do it?

[Gillian]

Well, I'd spent a long time beforehand leaving an hour between cigarettes. And that was one thing that helped her. I was working with a woman who was a spiritual healer. I mean, she'd done naturopathy training, but I don't think I could have done it without her. You know, we had a really deep relationship, so. Yeah. And I've actually managed to stay with it, so I don't believe it. I never say to myself, I've given up smoking. I could go back to it any minute.

[Tom]

How many would you smoke a day prior to giving up?

[Gillian]

Between 15 and 30, probably. Yeah.

[Tom]

Oh, well done for the willpower. Did anything replace cigarettes? Did he start, you know, playing more Scrabble?

[Gillian]

No, I think coffee. I mean, I drank a lot of coffee anyway. And chocolate. I mean, I realized I'm addicted to addiction. I needed advice, so I turned it into chocolate. And the smoker in my head, you seriously think that's an addiction?

[Tom]

We still get through the chocolate now. Is it still chocolate?

[Gillian]

Yes. I just need something that's a sort of wicked.

[Tom]

Yes, I'm with you on that one. And we all need something like that, you know. Well, I've. What's mine? It's not. Definitely not smoking.

[Male Guest]

Good.

[Tom]

Yeah. I would say mine is the slight peanut butter issue where I kind of get. I get big, big tubs of the stuff. And they're very good now. They're very edible. As a sole bit of food. Yeah.

[Male Guest]

You eat by the spoonful.

[Tom]

Yeah, sometimes. Yeah.

[Male Guest]

Wow. Crazy.

[Tom]

I just don't even put it on anything.

[Male Guest]

No.

[Tom]

And that's a. That's a problem. In one particular episode of this podcast, I did once mention the peanut butter issue before and I mentioned the brand name, the one I like, and the person who. The owner of that brand or the got in touch and sent me some. Some tubs and some other things which got me even more hooked.

[Male Guest]

Right.

[Tom]

You know, so that's. That's the danger of mentioning brands.

[Male Guest]

Well, I'll just say dark chocolate is my thing. Yeah. Yeah. 90 lint. That's what I need.

[Interjector]

Yeah.

[Tom]

Do you have children?

[Male Guest]

I have, yes. I have a son and a daughter. And my daughter's producing, probably, maybe even at this moment is producing another child. So that'll be at this very moment. Possibly. Well, very likely. Yeah. And she. She's due. She's absolutely due.

[Interjector]

Yeah.

[Male Guest]

It is one thing. I mean, it's awe inspiring to see somebody go through that it's really hard. And you've got kids.

[Tom]

I do.

[Male Guest]

You do. Okay. So you've been there. I have, yeah.

[Tom]

Both occasions.

[Male Guest]

Cool. Oh, excuse me. Well, I was kind of assuming. You look so young.

[Tom]

Oh, that's very sweet. My children quite old now. I say old. They're old. You know, they're 12 months old.

[Male Guest]

Right, right. Oh, well, you know, you wait, any minute now, they'll have PhDs.

[Tom]

How have you found being a parent generally? Well.

[Male Guest]

So we're spilling the beans here, aren't we? I mean, so we separated. The mother of my children and I separated, and it wasn't easy. It seemed unnecessary to me. But it was fine until the lawyers got involved. And it was. It was hard. My kids are great, you know, they're very bright. They do both have PhDs now, which is beyond comprehension. I mean, watching somebody go through that, watching your kids doing a PhD. Wow, that is tough.

[Tom]

Have your children had to defend their PhD against you? Have you tested them out?

[Male Guest]

No, my son. I mean, I did a physics degree. My son did a physics degree degree as well. In fact, they both did physics degrees. And he was investigating whether you could make a particular kind of solar panel. There's some quantum mechanical stuff. And I just. I couldn't understand what the hell he was talking about. It was completely beyond me. Serious maths. He gave me the PhD. And it's embarrassing that, you know, I just didn't actually manage to read it, you know, so.

[Tom]

Well, you know, you helped, you know, make him in the first place, so.

[Male Guest]

That is true.

[Tom]

He's got a lot. He's got a lot to thank you for.

[Male Guest]

That is true. It's great teaching people stuff because that's when you learn it, isn't it? You know, so.

[Tom]

So and so you may be teaching some stuff to a grandchild. Yeah, it's my first grandchild. It'll be the first one.

[Male Guest]

It'll be the first one.

[Tom]

So you seem very relaxed.

[Male Guest]

Well, yeah.

[Gillian]

Now, 300 miles away.

[Male Guest]

That's right, yeah. I can hardly feel the pain at all. No, I. I Much. Truthfully. Truthfully, I am quite nervous for her. I hope it's. I'm, you know, fingers crossed.

[Tom]

So were you, you know, Touchwood. All is well. What will be your next move? Will you be. Where do you say? Where do you say it's happening?

[Male Guest]

It's in London.

[Tom]

Oh, it's in London. So will you be on the first train?

[Male Guest]

No, I should be on a second train sort of thing. Yeah, yeah. Her mum will be down there with her in the immediate aftermath. And indeed no, that's. You need. It's really helpful to have someone there, as you'll know. I mean, it really helps.

[Tom]

How do you get what our relations like with the mother?

[Male Guest]

Okay. When I look back on it. When I look back on it. Yeah, when I look back on it, you know, we needn't. If we needn't have come apart. It's ridiculous really.

[Tom]

Then you wouldn't be with Gillian.

[Male Guest]

Well, that's true.

[Tom]

So, you know, swinging around.

[Male Guest]

So bad luck. No. Well, that's true. Yes.

[Gillian]

Yes, it's true.

[Male Guest]

Life is complicated, isn't it? But we went to various counsellors and therapists and things just to kind of try and sort out our relationship.

[Tom]

So what age are we talking about now?

[Male Guest]

I was around 40, I think, when we had the kids. Yeah. And then we were fine for about seven years and then things happened. Yeah, I don't talk about that. But we ended up going to relate and they talked to us both individually. Your child. Da, da, da. And then they talked to us about the situation we were in. How is it going? So the family brought us together and then I remember the therapist, counsellor, woman counsellor, saying to me, I think what we have here is a communications problem and I think we could probably fix it, if that's what you want. So do you want to put it together again? And she'd asked me, are you willing? I said yes. She asked me, do you want to? And I said no, I'm fed up, you know, I've had enough. I've tried my level best to make it work and I'm just fed up with her. And so do I want to get together? No. Now if she'd said, are you willing? We would be together now. The kids would have been grown up in one household. There wouldn't. There was. And the kids suffer from this really, particularly my son, who was old enough to understand a bit what was happening and to want to change it, to want to get us back together again and not to be able to. This is the thing. So, you know your first experience of trying to make something happen in the world. I'm not sure I should be telling you all this.

[Tom]

How did he try to get you back together again?

[Male Guest]

He certainly talked to her. He probably talked to me. By the time you become an adult, you've got such a variety of ways of doing things that a seven year old child can't. Can't really address.

[Tom]

It's quite rare, although I haven't heard that many instances of A child, despite knowing the situation, trying to get their parents back together. That's quite interesting.

[Male Guest]

Yeah,

[Tom]

that's because he actually thought, you know, like you, that you were never that far away from it. Is that the point? That was. It is. It was. It was, you know, it was touch and go and there was actually.

[Male Guest]

No, I don't think. I mean, I think he just knew it was the right thing, that you would be together. Yeah, that's because that is the right thing, isn't it? You know, the parents should be together and the kids should grow up with that. And they have to go through. May I say this, on your podcast, but they have to go through shit from time to time. Their things are different. Like we've been saying we have. Sometimes you have difficult conversations. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, it's hard being with another person, isn't it? It is. And inevitably. And maybe. Maybe it should be.

[Tom]

I mean, but, you know, it sounds like you've made two delightful humans.

[Male Guest]

Yep. Yeah, they're great.

[Tom]

And you probably had a good time at various points.

[Male Guest]

Yeah. Oh, yes. Yes, yes, indeed. Yeah, that's true.

[Tom]

You know, maybe if you just flip it around, you know, there was many successes were had.

[Male Guest]

Yeah.

[Tom]

You know, things can't be successful forever.

[Male Guest]

No, no, I suppose it's really.

[Tom]

They have people, they have. You have your golden. Your golden time.

[Male Guest]

We did have a golden time. We. Her wedding in. We had. She got married in Cyprus this year and it was. It was wonderful.

[Tom]

Oh, you went along. Of course. That's nice.

[Male Guest]

Yeah, yeah, of course.

[Tom]

Okay, so. So the. So you're invited to weddings.

[Male Guest]

Oh, God, yeah. Okay.

[Tom]

Well, great.

[Male Guest]

Can we get on?

[Tom]

Okay.

[Male Guest]

You know, it's just. And really, I suppose you're right. That's very good, Tom. Thanks. Very helpful. I mean, it was all fine, except. I'll tell you why it wasn't fine for me during the process, but. And it wasn't fine for my son either at the time. He was really upsetting for him. So it became that the standard deal was the mum would get them 12 days of a fortnight, and then the dad would get them at those alternate weekends. So as a father, you see your kids arrive, you know, this alternate weekend, and you've kind of forgotten who they are. And then you. Over the course of the weekend, you get back in touch with them, you get close to them again, and then they go away and you, like, you just. It's like you're being picked up and then dropped and then picked up and then dropped and it's Hard that. It's really hard because I remember one of the first nights when I was sleeping in a different house from them and it was like a physical pain. It surprised me. I really wasn't expecting it. That's how it was for years. It occupied me all the time. And I thought a lot about it and I. I am so grateful not to think about that time anymore.

[Gillian]

Really.

[Male Guest]

So you brought it all back. Son of a. Listen. Walks across the bridge. Hi. No, thank you. Thank you. It's good to. You've heard this story before, haven't you? But it's. You know. Yeah, they're great. I mean, humans. Humans do this sort of thing. Thing, don't they?

[Tom]

So you went. So you went. You attended the wedding in Cyprus?

[Male Guest]

Absolutely. Every. It's amazing because what was your.

[Tom]

What was your, you know, what was your memory of the. You know, where were you positioned? Where. Where did she put you? Back left or, you know, right at the front.

[Male Guest]

Of course, right at the front. Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah. I mean, my. Myself, her mother and. And the. The. The. The. The new family, we've just sort of acquired the. The Cypriot family.

[Tom]

One second. Sorry. Who got married?

[Male Guest]

My daughter.

[Tom]

Oh, your daughter.

[Male Guest]

My daughter get married.

[Tom]

Okay, right. Sorry. I thought your ex partner.

[Male Guest]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. She is married. But I was not invited to the wedding.

[Tom]

Okay. I thought. Sorry, sorry.

[Male Guest]

You have a more generous. Generous spirit than I. No, no. It's my daughter getting married.

[Tom]

Okay, fine. Okay, that's better. And were you sat closeish to ex partner?

[Male Guest]

Yeah. Next door? Yeah, we sit next to each other. Of course. Yeah, yeah. And we do talk to each other. I mean, what words were. What.

[Tom]

Were there any meaningful words exchanged between you on that day?

[Male Guest]

You should ask it to a woman. I don't remember conversations verbatim

[Gillian]

apart from

[Tom]

that one 12 years ago. And you saying that Gillian said that thing that she. She actually thought you were right about. You remember that?

[Male Guest]

When she told me I was right?

[Tom]

Yeah, yeah. But there were no kind of passing remarks about the daughter getting married. You know, it's quite a big day.

[Male Guest]

Oh, God. Yeah. I'm pretty sure her mum said she's so beautiful because she was beautiful. Yeah, she was beautiful that day. And then they. So the way they do it in Cyprus when the groom is getting dressed up so the groom and the bride aren't together at that point, the family are all. They all turn up. The groom comes out, so basically dressed in vest, in his underwear, basically.

[Tom]

And then comes out just in front of the congregation.

[Male Guest]

No, no, not in the congregation. This is at home.

[Tom]

Oh, sorry. Okay. Okay.

[Male Guest]

They have a basket and they bring him sort of, you know, a shirt and a pair of trousers and a pair of shoes and all this, and so. And he gets dressed and so that was great fun. And then. And then they have a. Yeah, they had musicians and stuff. It was really cool. Yeah, no, it was lovely.

[Tom]

Did you have a formal role, anything you needed to do on the day?

[Male Guest]

Yep. I had to stand in line and have hundreds of people come and greet me.

[Tom]

Okay.

[Male Guest]

Yeah.

[Tom]

Because that was. That's culturally.

[Male Guest]

Shake hands and things. Yeah.

[Tom]

Was the handshake as firm at the start as it was at the end? No, I was getting a bit floppy.

[Male Guest]

Oh, it's fine. Oh, it's fine. No, Cyprus is nice and the people are. The people are smart and they're very. People always say this. Don't they say, the people are wonderful? And I really did feel that Cyprus is a great place. We didn't treat Cyprus greatly as the. As British. You know, we are. We are.

[Tom]

We're talking about the government.

[Male Guest]

We're talking about. No, we're talking about me. No, not me. No, no, no, we're.

[Tom]

I'm talking about your general philosophy.

[Male Guest]

Perfidious Albian. Yeah. Britain. I mean, I. I am, in a way, I'm proud of being of Britain. And in a way, I'm really ashamed of it. We have. We have done terrible things.

[Gillian]

Yeah.

[Male Guest]

We.

[Tom]

Obviously been. You've been with each other 14 years.

[Male Guest]

Amazing.

[Tom]

So this is a question for both of you, related to the other person.

[Male Guest]

Okay.

[Tom]

Can you think of a particular moment which you think most defines why you think highly of that. That person? Does that make sense of the question? Just something where you just go, hang on. Yeah, that's. That's why I think this person's great. Who wants to go first? No pressure.

[Male Guest]

I think you've got something to say. Yeah.

[Gillian]

There are so many. But I think the day after he had the operation in the hospital here to seal up the leaking blood vessel.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Gillian]

And so his life was safe to. By the team. And I remember going to see him the day after and I came up and found intensive care. Yeah. And walked in and I encountered this rather sort of large, round armchair. It was like a throne and you looked like an emperor. And then there was a terrible complication with the man in the bed next to. After you got Covid and the whole ward had to be evacuated after all this had happened before and you knew which, you know, medicine you needed and you fought your Way up to the top of the hierarchy of doctors. I mean, when I saw you stomping up and down the corridor of the ward in the hospital pajamas when you were not going to give in, your all your energy had come back and I was hugely grateful because I thought, that's really. I mean, I know they did a magnificent job, but I thought, no, it's your spirit. You just weren't going to die.

[Male Guest]

You were impressed. You were impressed with my. My fighting spirit.

[Gillian]

Yes.

[Male Guest]

Oh, thank you. Oh, that's good. Pax. Livid. So this one? Yeah. Okay. Thank you.

[Tom]

Your turn now.

[Male Guest]

Well, you know, you're not going to get off.

[Tom]

He's got a great one.

[Male Guest]

Yeah, he will. Well, so not long after we got together, there was a weekend at Wordsworth's house in the lay district, Grasmere, and she gave a writing workshop, which was great. She's a really good. Really good teacher of creative writing, was Jillian. You were very good.

[Gillian]

You were.

[Male Guest]

You.

[Gillian]

You were very willing and you gave out the pencils.

[Tom]

You were giving out the pencils.

[Male Guest]

Fantastic.

[Tom]

So what was it about seeing Jillian in that particular environment which. Which made it.

[Male Guest]

She. She was a master of the situation. And so I. Can. Can I have two?

[Tom]

Oh, yeah. Oh, here we go. Yeah. Like it. Are we going to keep going?

[Male Guest]

So, what? Only a. Three months ago, we were in London in the Festival hall, and she read her poetry to 2000 people in this huge. In a huge auditorium. And, you know, you read very well. It was great.

[Tom]

Were you nervous?

[Gillian]

Yes and no. So an annual competition and I. And I'd been short. This was the third time I'd been shortlisted. But it was much more daunting this year because the poetry world has finally learned how to do publicity. Crazy. I just. I really liked the Festival hall and it feels very ordinary because it, you know, it was 1951, I think, wasn't it the revolution, and so we're about the same age.

[Tom]

Perfect. You've grown with it.

[Gillian]

Yes. And I just. I don't know, it doesn't feel like a threatening situation. I don't get freaked out by readings particularly. Timing is hard in poetry readings, but as long as you get that.

[Tom]

All right, then how do you know a poetry reading is going well?

[Gillian]

Quality of the attention.

[Tom]

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah.

[Gillian]

Yes.

[Male Guest]

You can hear a pin drop.

[Gillian]

I listen to the audience in every pore of my skin. That's how it feels. And then if I. If they're meeting, that. That's. That's working. All right.

[Tom]

And then how did you feel afterwards? Did you feel content.

[Gillian]

Yes, I was pleased. And it was also live screened, so a lot of people that I know well, wonderful. See, every day, I got lots of feedback and from my family, my sisters were both online and.

[Tom]

Yeah, brilliant. And you were there. You were present.

[Male Guest]

I was. I was there with.

[Tom]

Were you nervous? For her, I mean.

[Male Guest]

No. You handle those situations. You don't. It's not a worry for you, is it? And, yeah, you are a master of yours. You're a mistress of your craft. I'm not in competition with it. Gillian's poetry is. It's brief and there's a lot of air in them. Yes. It's a mystery, isn't it, poetry?

[Gillian]

It's not easy. It's very hard work reading poems.

[Male Guest]

And Gillian's always said people are nervous about poetry and it's a shame, really. I mean.

[Tom]

You mean nervous about talking about it and nerves about reading it.

[Male Guest]

Oh, writing it. Oh, no, you know that. Oh. It's sort of like, you know those terrible dreams where you sort of find yourself. You know, you're walking along a catwalk and suddenly you suddenly realize you're naked. There's people on. I never have those dreams. Well, I know what you're talking about.

[Tom]

Never. Not one.

[Male Guest]

No, no, no, no. But that's the sort of thing. It doesn't. People feel naked when they're sort of. If they write poetry, I think. And it's. It's a shame. It's.

[Tom]

But it's lovely to be naked. It's. Ask the nudists. They love it.

[Male Guest]

That's true. Yeah.

[Gillian]

But there's also. I always feel like the poem's like a bowl and it, when it's finished, contains what you're saying and desperately about yourself and the most intimate things in your life. Somehow it's protected because it's.

[Male Guest]

I like that.

[Tom]

Poetry is a bowl. I like that. You're not. You did the. Well, you did the workshop and you left it there.

[Male Guest]

I've done about three workshops, haven't I? Or something like that.

[Tom]

He could be a good poet. Do you think? He is a good poet.

[Gillian]

I think I shouldn't pontificate about.

[Male Guest]

She's just being. Just being kind. I could write. I mean, but that wouldn't be my natural thing. I would write about. If anything, I was right about science probably, wouldn't I? I am interested in how things are and explanations. Yeah.

[Tom]

What are the great. What in the world, scientifically, currently. Can you just not fathom that? You wish you could fathom.

[Male Guest]

That's okay. I'm Going to answer a slightly different question. You know, I am.

[Tom]

That's always the joke. You answer whatever question you want.

[Male Guest]

I am absolutely in awe of life. I mean, the weird, idiosyncratic ways that viruses come up, do things, just things that you wouldn't expect. And I mean, how does our immune system work? You know, I mean, I know how our. I know a lot about how our immune system works. It's unbelievable. But, but physics is pretty much solved and it is, it's great. I mean, I love the fact that, you know, the universe starts out with a big bang and then you get high, you get, you know, photons and then you get hydrogen and atoms and then you get. They condense into stars and, you know, then you get metals and it's wonderful, isn't it? What a great story, you know, but then life, bloody hell,

[Tom]

do we think

[Male Guest]

that life is only here on this planet? I mean, a bit nervous about that because it really could get wiped out any minute, couldn't it? I mean, we won't wipe it out with climate change, we might wipe out civilization. But it's wonderful. Life is just so, so much more than you could possibly hope for, really, you know, and, you know, it's miserable, it's cold, it's Tuesday and I hate myself, I hate my life, you know, so we're pretty ungrateful creatures, aren't?

[Tom]

But I think if we were, if we were too great for a two in all, all the time, we would just be overwhelming.

[Male Guest]

Yeah, that's right. You just sort of sit there, you

[Tom]

wouldn't get anything done.

[Male Guest]

That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tom]

Can I, can I, can I, can I, can we have five more minutes? There's something I really want to do because this is the first time I've had two people on the bench. I'm going to give this, my microphone to Jillian. Can you stick that on just your, the top there somewhere? And because we've heard much more from this one.

[Male Guest]

No surprise, no surprise.

[Gillian]

This is a normal state of affairs, this lad.

[Tom]

What I'm going to do is this. I am going to go around the

[Male Guest]

corner, right, for a few minutes.

[Tom]

The job is you must ask questions of Gillian.

[Male Guest]

Right. Okay.

[Tom]

Okay. And I'll be back in three minutes.

[Male Guest]

If you go down there, you'll find a bridge and then you can come back along the other side.

[Tom]

How about that?

[Male Guest]

And there's a bridge there. Ah, well, questions for you. Okay, yeah, well, Gillian. Yeah, so. So we've been for 14 years. So, I mean, are you happy that we did that?

[Gillian]

Oh, yes, absolutely. Hasn't been easy, but. Yes.

[Male Guest]

Overall, what was. What was hard?

[Gillian]

As long as I can go off by myself and be in my writing place and be alone there, it's not difficult. It's been great. A great combination. Yes. But I don't know whether I'll go on needing to do that. I might open up more so that I can be sharing myself more person to person. I don't know. You're important in my journey.

[Male Guest]

So I've provided the difficulties that you needed to. To make progress.

[Gillian]

Yes, absolutely.

[Male Guest]

Can you give an example of what those difficulties, what those difficulties might be, what kind of things that you wouldn't have otherwise? Kind of. It would have taken longer to address them.

[Gillian]

The fact that in some ways you and I are so different. Accepting those differences and having to not just tolerate another human being, but open up to that human being and rejoice, that's been the most important thing.

[Male Guest]

And what's been good about it?

[Gillian]

Well, that has. I do not rejoice easily. That's been great.

[Male Guest]

So I think you're right. Some difficulties that we have had in the past of. Like, that I see things differently than you do. I think we've got past them in a way. But then it feels to me like there are still other challenges. I mean, we've all got the challenge, we're going to die, but I'm not talking about that. I mean. But there are things still in your life that you're working through. So what do you think? What kind of things? What are you working through at the moment?

[Gillian]

Yes, I think you have been. You are important to me on my own journey into being more of a whole human being than I have been able to be until now. I mean, there were big distortions and difficulties when I was born and in the first few years of my life, and some of them were, I think, too difficult to deal with until now. And so it's. And you've been instrumental in helping that to happen.

[Male Guest]

I kind of get that. Because actually, you know, it is easier to be yourself if you've got someone that you can share that with. Right?

[Gillian]

Yes.

[Male Guest]

Because how else are you going to sort of talk about how things are, how things are really? And you can't. We can't. You can't get to a point where you. Where you can talk in an absolutely straightforward way. I mean, we might call it an open. A way, which is where you don't have to be pretending until you've done an awful lot of talking.

[Gillian]

Yes. Yeah. Which we have.

[Male Guest]

We have done a lot of talking. Yeah. I mean, in a way, I still think so. Do you still see your sort of main thing as it is? Your main thing? Still writing? That's what you said to me the other day. Well, I'm not sure I'm going to go on writing, but I don't believe you. I think you will. So. Yeah, so. So you've got something. I. I don't know what I have, really. I just kind of do things. I just. I just fix things.

[Gillian]

You've got computers.

[Male Guest]

Well, I know, but I mean, you know that.

[Gillian]

Yeah. Your expertise and. And that the extent to which you can help all the people around you in their struggles with this peculiar technology. Difficult technology.

[Male Guest]

Yeah, yeah. And are you optimistic about such things as are difficult still, which I think you find it difficult as you get nervous about things. Do you feel sort of like that you're going to get control of all that?

[Gillian]

I feel. I mean, things. Things become difficult between us because we each have our rough edges and shaky bits and I. I think in extremes. Oh, no, it's all finished. That's terrible.

[Male Guest]

You do you think in extremes. That's true, yeah.

[Gillian]

But then it's another day and we're on a different level and we're teasing each other or something, I think. Oh, it's all right, actually, it's that variation that I find difficult to live with. But actually that's the thing that's necessary, I think.

[Male Guest]

And it's true. We have got to a point where we know each other well enough and we've been through, like, difficult conversations, rouse, you might call them rows, but they're not really roused. They're not kind of like we're shouting at each other. We're intensely exchanging arguments often, but we've been through them and then you come out the other side and so you know that in a future situation that's the same thing's going to happen, you know, in the end. You know, sort of in a couple of hours time, we're going to have supper. So it makes it. It makes it possible to just sort of stand back from the difficulties.

[Gillian]

Yeah, yes.

[Male Guest]

Yes.

[Gillian]

Shall we get him back again?

[Male Guest]

Well, yes.

[Gillian]

Yeah.

[Male Guest]

Well, yeah. We could run off with his equipment. Well, I think actually, Tom, you know, that was. Actually, that's been very. Thank you very much. That having that conversation between us is actually really quite useful. We've said a couple of things to each other we haven't really said before. Quite appreciative things to each other. Oh, lovely.

[Gillian]

Yeah. There you are. You see what you can do. And you know, you'd be looking at. Made our. Made our relationship take. Go on different tracks.

[Male Guest]

Right.

[Tom]

Well, we've done it.

[Male Guest]

We have.

[Gillian]

Yes, yes.

[Tom]

But there's one last question.

[Male Guest]

Oh, no.

[Tom]

You remember there was a step, the first and the last. Well, yes, and we talked about your last question. Of course, the last question is, what are you going to do next? You see, it's a springboard. We're not dying. We're. We're going forward forever.

[Male Guest]

Yeah, well, I. Well, I don't know what Gillian. I don't know what the answer to Gillian's answer is. I mean, I am trying to understand what the hell is going on with AI and I want an AI assistant to take on my do list and just tell me what to do.

[Tom]

So you're just very concerned about AI things.

[Male Guest]

God knows where it's going. God knows where it's going, but I do think it's going to change everything. And about bloody time. I mean, you know this world where the only thing that matters is money. I mean, I did a business course a long time ago and we did. We did an accounting module and the very first thing they told us was the accounting guys said, well, what you have to realize is everything in our world is measurable in terms of money. No, no, no. I mean, it's not. But the world that we're in is really stupid. In order for you to have a means of. Not you, most people to have a means of getting the necessities of life, we have to basically come up with some stuff that somebody else wants to buy. So in order to be allowed to be alive. Well, I mean, what the hell, you know, we are. The world is incredibly wealthy and we just don't have to do it this way. Am I talking too much?

[Tom]

It's all good. You're saying good things.

[Male Guest]

Yeah.

[Gillian]

I absolutely need to find a loo.

[Male Guest]

Right.

[Tom]

Can you answer? So you're going to say what you're going to do next. Go to the loo?

[Gillian]

Yes.

[Tom]

Anything else in a grand, grand way. Be your just want to answer in a matter of fact way. No, no.

[Gillian]

No questions. When I found a loo, then you'll know. Then I'll know what I'm going to do next.

[Male Guest]

I'm going to research how to build this gate.

[Tom]

Yes.

[Male Guest]

Right.

[Tom]

Oh, my God, the gate. We've got to do the gate.

[Interjector]

Gate's still off its hinges, but the garden's looking fine. Maybe with the summer you can find the time. First we beg to differ? Then agree to disagree? Saturdays or Sundays? Providence or anarchy? Booing. I was young when I was older? Now I'm where I'm supposed to be? So laugh until it's funny or leave it at the door? Sit right here? If it takes all year to get the triple word score? Say you've got it figured? This mystery I'm living? And the past won't hold a gr? But the future's less forgiving? I was young when I was older? Now I'm where I'm supposed to be? I was young then I was older? Now I'm where I'm supposed to be? I was young then I was older? Now I'm where I'm supposed to be?