EPISODE 97: Seeing Stars in Sea Glass

Summary

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Strangers on a Bench

EPISODE 97: Seeing Stars in Sea Glass

Host: Tom Rosenthal
Date: July 20, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this touching and wide-ranging episode, Tom Rosenthal sits down at Whitley Bay with an anonymous bench-dweller—a woman deeply attuned to the natural worlds above and below, from searching for sea glass along the beach to gazing up at the aurora borealis. The conversation flows from the joys and rituals of beachcombing to the challenges of living with Ehlers-Danlos syndrome and autism, the meaning of obsession, neurodiversity and parenting, shifting relationships, and embracing passions old and new. Themes of resilience, pleasure in small moments, and seizing beauty where one can recur throughout.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Chance Encounters and the Ritual of Place

[00:54–01:23]

• The episode begins with Tom explaining how a delayed train led him, by chance, to Whitley Bay—a motif that sets the tone for the conversation around serendipity and savoring unexpected moments.

Quote:
"There's a lot of chance in life in general." – B [00:51]

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A "Brilliant Friday": Joy in Simple Rituals

[01:27–04:33]

• The guest details her ideal Friday, made beautiful by the possibility of a pain-free day, her child’s happiness, and the ritual of walking the beach searching for sea glass—a meditative practice that helps her manage anxiety and sensory overload associated with autism.
• She stresses the need to infuse her days with passions: good food, nature, astronomy, and more.
• The sensory focus of collecting sea glass provides clarity and a mindful escape.

Quote:
"If there's anything on your mind or if there's anything troubling you, this is the perfect kind of place to empty your mind of all those thoughts. So as you're walking along, because your brain is obsessing over finding glass, all of the thoughts are pushed out to the side and it really helps you relax." – B [02:37]

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The Meaning of Sea Glass

[04:33–07:14]

• Sea glass is described as both a passion and a ritual, and its history and transformation by the sea mirror themes of resilience and discovery—seeking beauty in the "waste products" of life.
• Types of glass: pirate glass (dark rum bottle glass from ~200 years ago), bonfire glass, sea marbles.

Quote:
"Once you've picked it up, put it in a bag and taken it home, it will never look as beautiful as it looked when you saw it on the sand for the first time with the sun shining on it." – B [06:26]

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Collection, Creation, and Letting Go

[07:14–09:37]

• Her conservatory overflows with kilos of sea glass—displayed, bottled, or made into jewelry.
• Given a choice to save one piece, she chooses a green, pear-shaped glass made into a pendant, evoking the aurora borealis and combining her two greatest passions: searching the sand and watching the sky.

Quote:
"If I'm not looking down at the sand picking sea glass up, I'm looking up at the sky." – B [09:27]

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Obsession, Passion, and the Autistic Mind

[10:08–12:13]

• She is candid about her "obsession" with sea glass, reframing it as necessary passion. Tom wonders how others can find their obsessions; she suggests it's often a matter of realization and confirmation rather than discovery.
• She also collects Pokémon cards, especially nature or aurora-themed ones—a hobby shared with her daughter.

Quote:
"If you don't have an obsession in life or a passion in life, then you can't care enough. Everyone's got to love something." – B [10:26]

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Luck, Positivity, and Managing Difficulty

[13:34–15:05]

• She describes a recent lucky streak—pulling rare Pokémon cards, winning the lottery—attributed, perhaps, to positive thinking and focusing on small wins.
• Sea glass finds also spark this sense of magical luck.
• She manages Ehlers-Danlos syndrome (chronic pain/fatigue) and reflects on how nature’s rituals bring energy and solace, contrasting with lethargy at home.

Quote:
"If you remember these positive moments, it pushes the negative moments away." – B [14:47]

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Health, Gratitude, and Learning to Cherish

[16:00–18:38]

• She and her daughter both live with Ehlers-Danlos and autism. Hard times have honed her appreciation for good days.
• This deepens her gratitude for wellness, echoing generational advice about valuing "good health above all else."

Quote:
"You don't appreciate having good health until you don't have good health." – B [17:38]

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Autism: Late Diagnosis and Accepting Self

[18:38–22:44]

• Diagnosed autistic at 51, after her daughter’s diagnosis, she reflects on a lifetime of misunderstood traits (sensory issues, routine, food aversions, difficulty socializing).
• The diagnosis brings relief and self-compassion: realizing that her needs are valid and she need not force herself to fit others’ expectations.

Quote:
"It improves your own awareness of yourself... be kind to yourself." – B [20:03 & 20:14]

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Relationships, Solitude, and Neurodivergence

[22:44–32:11]

• She describes the challenges of social and romantic relationships as an autistic person: literal interpretation, dislike of banter, need for space and routine.
• Her circle is small but deep (a best friend from school, online community around writer Nigel Slater).
• She’s happier alone, running ritual-based online book clubs and engaging in nature and hobbies.
• Past relationships (10 years marriage, another relationship leading to her daughter) and the stigma of single parenting are discussed, with a focus on children's needs over societal norms.

Quote:
"Better that the kids don't have animosity and bad atmosphere... than having people on the same roof kind of for the sake of it." – A [30:47]
"Our home is beautiful and tranquil and calm and kind and loving. And it perhaps wasn't that when I was with her father." – B [31:00]

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Parenting, Later Motherhood, and Acceptance

[33:20–36:02]

• She candidly discusses becoming a mother at 40 (unexpectedly), the deep bond and mutual understanding she shares with her autistic daughter, and why she wouldn’t change any part of this journey despite the sacrifices involved.
• Father’s limited involvement is by mutual, gentle consensus; high energy demands mean the mother and daughter mutually guard their space.

Quote:
"It's been the most wonderful gift being a mother…we understand each other so much... I really would have missed out if I hadn't had [my daughter]." – B [33:34]

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Regret, Performing, and Expanding the Comfort Zone

[38:09–40:01]

• Tom prompts her to name a "crime of omission"—something she regrets not doing. She wishes she’d had the confidence to perform or sing, and considers joining a choir in the future.
• The two muse about joys and peculiarities of choir life, and she adds this to her growing life list.

Quote:
"I might join something like a choir... I'm putting choir back on [the list] now after losing it. So choir is now the first thing on that list of things you need to do." – B [41:48]

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Lists, Rituals, and Sea Glass Diaries

[40:22–41:56]

• Her phone is full of actionable rituals: gardening, pickling sloes, building cold frames, and a wish to write "The Sea Glass Diaries"—a book inspired by the conversations and meditations she has on the beach.

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Most Treasured Memory: The Aurora Borealis

[44:13–45:40]

• For the meditation/close-eyes exercise, she recalls witnessing the aurora in May 2024 along the coast—vivid colors, total immersion, and a sense of profound privilege in being alive.

Quote:
"I've never seen color in the sky and movement in the sky like that ever in my life... And it was one of those moments where you just think being alive is just amazing and incredible and the world is beautiful." – B [44:25]

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Looking Ahead

[46:25–47:20]

• When asked what she'll do next: either more beachcombing or sitting in her garden with tea—choosing pleasure in the present moment, no matter what pain or fatigue the day brings.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Everyone's got to love something." – B [10:26]
• "Our home is beautiful and tranquil and calm and kind and loving." – B [31:00]
• "If I'm not looking down at the sand picking sea glass up, I'm looking up at the sky." – B [09:27]
• "You don't appreciate having good health until you don't have good health." – B [17:38]
• "I've never seen color in the sky and movement in the sky like that ever in my life... the world is beautiful." – B [44:25]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Chance encounter & philosophy of chance: [00:51–01:09]
• Ritual of sea glass hunting: [01:54–04:33]
• Explaining sea glass types and emotional meaning: [04:33–07:14]
• Sea glass collection, jewelry, sentimental value: [07:14–09:37]
• Obsession, passion, neurodivergent collections: [10:08–12:13]
• Health struggles and gratitude: [14:59–18:38]
• Late autism diagnosis and impact: [18:38–22:44]
• Relationships, parenting, the meaning of "home": [22:50–31:24]
• Becoming a mother late & its rewards: [33:20–36:02]
• Missed opportunities & joining a choir: [38:09–41:56]
• Treasure memory: Seeing the aurora: [44:13–45:40]
• Looking ahead—embracing each day: [46:25–47:20]

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Final Thoughts

This episode beautifully captures how daily ritual, passion, and acceptance—especially through neurodivergent lenses—can transform the ordinary into the extraordinary. The guest’s reflections offer both practical wisdom and emotional resonance, whether discussing collecting sea glass, embracing solitude, navigating disability, or simply pursuing joy wherever it can be found.

Song in mind: "Edge of Seventeen" by Stevie Nicks.
Life lesson: Find what you love, and let it fill your days—however you can.

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Transcript

[A]

Hello. Sorry to bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench, where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a.

[B]

What, a chance meeting?

[A]

Eh, Pure chance. So there's a lot of chance in this.

[B]

Oh, a lot of chance in life in general.

[A]

This is so true. Should I tell you why I chose here over somewhere else? I was taking the. The Newcastle Metro, right, For the first time, right. And there were two platforms either side. And I was going to go to South Shields. I still might.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But the train was delayed for about, like 20 minutes. I thought maybe that's a sign. I saw that Whitney Bay was on the other side, right. And that was coming in kind of three minutes. And I just thought, well, go for that instead.

[B]

Yeah, you've got to go time. If you've got the rest of the day and we still got the South

[A]

Shields, go to the whole package. You feeling good?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Delightful, delightful. The first question is, do you have a favorite day of the week?

[B]

Probably Friday, because, you know, that's when the weekend starts. So I'm sitting here today and I'm thinking, oh, Friday, tomorrow we've got a long weekend.

[A]

And then the joy begins.

[B]

And then the joy begins.

[A]

Okay, what I want to know what, for you, yeah. Represents like a really brilliant Friday. Lived in the world, you know, within reason, within. What is possible in your life?

[B]

What is possible for me, that's a really good point, actually, because I do have a disability, so I have certain restrictions. But a good day for me would be to wake up, be relatively pain free. The sun would be shining, get my daughter up and take her to school, and she would go in very happy because she also has some problems. So if she goes in happy, I'm happy. And then I come down to the beach and that's when I breathe and I just take in the view. The sound of the waves, the sand, the pebbles. And I have an hour where I look for sea glass. And if there's anything on your mind or if there's anything troubling you, this is the perfect kind of place to empty your mind of all those thoughts. So as you're walking along, because your brain is obsessing over finding glass, all of the thoughts are pushed out to the side and it really helps you relax. And I know this because I've done this for a long time and I thought, I guess I don't have mental health Problems as such. But I do have autism and that presents all its own sort of anxieties and stuff like that. So coming here, starting my day here, and then if I've got anything else to do, it can wait until I'm finished here. Probably be my back square quite sore by this point because I've bending over about six or seven hundred times picking up sea glass. And then I'll pop home and have a late breakfast and go and see my mum. And then I'll start thinking about what we'll be doing that evening, me and my daughter, what we might watch, what we might eat, what we might be doing on the Saturday and Sunday. Because we have quite a ritualistic lifestyle, both being autistic. We do the same sort of things in the same sort of order. And I think I've noticed this most recently. I do have a lot of passions and I have to get those into my life. Things need to enrich my life, so I need to cook beautiful food and I need to be in nature and I love stars and the aurora borealis and there's so many things that I'm passionate about and I want to try and cram them into every single day.

[A]

You need a lot of life, a lot of time.

[B]

Yeah, there's not enough hours in the day because there's so much beauty to can kind of like. Yeah, you kind of need to absorb it because there's also so much crap in the world that you really need that to offset it. You know, come down to the beach and sit on a bench and enjoy the quietness.

[A]

Tell me about sea glass, because this is a ritual.

[B]

This is a ritual, it's a session, it's a passion.

[A]

How does one begin this? Do you remember the very.

[B]

The openings off and on over the years? I've lived on the northeast coast of England all my life, but wherever I've been in the world, I've been that type of person who pick up a pebble or pick up a piece of sea glass and, you know, got them all around my home and things like that, and they're all very meaningful and I think it's because they've got a history and you don't always know what that history is. So you think, think, wow, this could be hundreds of years old. So since I was a small child coming down the beach, I would pick things up. But more recently, I've sort of got some time to myself and started to decide to carve out an hour or two. Coming down here mostly to Whitley Bay and just having this this allotted slot every day. Because there are different types of glasses, pirate glass glass, and there's bonfire glass.

[A]

Tell me more about this.

[B]

So pirate glass, we're sitting on a bench now, right. But there is literally a pile of rocks just down there from us.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Two days ago, I found what looked like the rounded corner of the bottom of a bottle, but it was completely black. But I had feeling that I had read about this and I knew what it was, so I picked it up. And it's an old bottom of a rum bottle. It is glass. You would think it was a pebble at first, but when you shine a light through through it, it glows like a kind of a yellowy green. And that's probably about 200 years old. It'll have come from a ship going up here somewhere where, you know, they had bottles of rum on board and the glass was dark, basically to try and preserve the room from the light. And then it becomes like a tick list. It becomes like, I've got to find one of those. And. And if you find a sea marble, especially if the light's shining and it catches the. The beautiful color in the glass, it's just. It's just the most. I take photographs sometimes as I go. Once you've picked it up, put it in a bag and taken it home, it will never look as beautiful as it looked when you saw it on the sand for the first time with the sun shining on it, you know?

[A]

So true.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's actually a message in there somewhere, isn't there?

[B]

What would that be, would you say?

[A]

Well, as in, I think it is also when you're. When you're on a beach, you see it as amazing looking stone or show or something. Wow, that's something incredible. Then you take it home.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's not the same.

[B]

And it's not the same. Certain things should be left. But glass I always sea as a kind of beautiful natural thing, but it's also kind of like a waste product on the beach sort of thing. So I always feel like, okay, taking glass, but sometimes you look at a shell and you go, no, that lives there. It wants to stay there.

[A]

I mean, if you're getting bags of seed glass every day, there must be a lot of bags of seed glass.

[B]

Oh yeah, you're talking kilos and kilos. You really don't want it.

[A]

Okay, so like what, like, what does your house look like?

[B]

So my house looks like my. My conservatory was meant to be this serene and beautiful and simplistic and minimalist place. And it's now full of sea glass, essentially. So some of it's displayed, some of it's put into, like, bottles and vases and jars with lights. But then I realized I needed to do more. So I now make jewelry. I'm wearing some earrings today. They're very, very simple earrings.

[A]

I was thinking, if I was. I was going to say.

[B]

But I'm trying to learn more and I'm trying to look at what I could do with it that makes the best use of its natural beauty. So I'm looking into trying to use some of the many kilos that I've got. And I probably need to take a day off from here to actually sort through it. The problem is, when you're down here every day picking the glass, you don't have the time to do stuff with it. But. But I am. I am starting to make things, and I want to try and give everybody at Christmas time something that I've made that's come from.

[A]

This may be a challenging question for you, but I'll say let's imagine that all the things you've picked up from a beach.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Are in. In the top of your house.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Right. And the windows open. Let's imagine some enormous storm blows in. It's going to call it a tilt, and it's not going to tornado.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Let's imagine this wind is so strong that it's like blowing all your things away or round. Okay. But good news is you have, you know, 10 seconds to grab to snatch what I need to snatch. The one that you would like to keep if they're all blowing away.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Do you think you know which one that is?

[B]

Yes, because I've literally just had it made into a pendant. And it is a green piece of glass in the shape of sort of like a pear, but flattish. And it's been placed into silver. And it has, like, what you. What I would say is striations through it. So it has, like, blue, green, yellow. And then when it. When you wear it, because of the silver that's on the back, because of the light reflecting off, it looks like aurora borealis. So that combines my two biggest passions in one, if I'm not looking down at the sand picking sea glass up, I'm looking up at the sky.

[A]

I like it. You're not either up or down. What about just on the. To the horizon?

[B]

Not shocked. You know, that's the one thing. When I walk on this beach every day and I realize that I've spent an hour or two bent over, I sometimes Go, hang on a second. And you just stop and you look and you go, yes, yes, yes. It is beautiful because sometimes when I get down here, the tide will be right and it's only just starting to go out. And then the next time I look, it's, you know, it's 500 meters away and anything could be happening around me. I wouldn't have a clue because I'm so absorbed. I do get completely lost in it.

[A]

Yeah. So this is a classic autistic trait.

[B]

I would say so. I am aware of what. What some would call its specialist interests, if you like. But at the end of the day, it's an obsession. Let's. Let's sort of call it what it is.

[A]

I mean. I mean, obsessions are important and lovely ones are even better.

[B]

Yeah. It shows passion for things. I think if you don't have an obsession in life or a passion in life, then you can't care enough. It's got a love something. Everyone's got to love something.

[A]

I suppose the big question is, how does one imagine someone's listening? They're like, well, I don't really have an obsession. Well, how do I get my obsession?

[B]

Maybe it's a mindset and maybe it's a case of you don't actually even realise that you have got something. I used to work in Sainsbury's supermarket on the checkouts, and I used to sometimes get people coming through saying, oh, you know, my life's so mundane and, you know, I don't have anything, I'm not doing anything this weekend. And I would always say to them, I bet it's not as mundane as you think. I bet you're going to see somebody who you really love, a best friend. Oh, actually, yes, I am going to say my best friend, I love her and we're going to have a coffee and I'll enjoy that. Or even somebody like might say, I don't have any hobbies at all. Do you like music? Oh, yes, I absolutely love Coldplay and I go to see them all the time. So you think, well, you have. You have got a passion in your life. You just don't really see it as that.

[A]

That's interesting. So actually, we're saying that people are kind of obsessed with things. They don't know they are. They don't know what they've got already.

[B]

Anyone who says, I don't have any hobbies, you think, you must have. You must have something. Even if it's something to do with the television. Everyone must have something. Everyone must have they just need to look deep enough.

[A]

In your great litany of hobbies that you have, or at least all your things you want to squeeze into your life. What would you say is the most niche thing?

[B]

Gosh, I think they're always quite surprised that I collect Pokemon cards. That's not an unusual thing.

[A]

I would say it's not unusual, but it's an interesting combination with Sea glass.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I can't imagine those two happening that often.

[B]

Yeah, they don't go.

[A]

The Sea Glass Pokemon Collective can't be huge.

[B]

It kind of does because it's massive amongst the neurodivergent community.

[A]

Is it? How much has this got to do with your daughter? Or is this completely my daughter?

[B]

It's my daughter. So I used to go with her every weekend and stand staring into space where she looked through the stores that sold Pokemon cards. They're in binders, if you can imagine. You sort of flip the pages over and the cards are in there and there might be ones that are rare. Obviously you're gonna buy them, they're going to be expensive. And then other ones, not so much. And I took no notice. And then this is where the link comes in. I spotted a card one day that actually had the Aurora in the background and that was the hook that set you off. And it was funny because we now know all the stall holders by name. So I now have a binder with my own collection in and I'm trying to collect all of the cards that links with either the beach or nature or the Aurora or the sea or something like that. And it's surprising, once you get into it, how many there are. And I seem to have a bit of a lucky streak as well. So I've got an awful lot of pressure on me at the moment because bought a pack the other day and my daughter was sort of rabbiting away going, could you imagine if we pulled the biggest card in the pack? It would be amazing. It's worth £1,000. And I was like, yes, yes, yes, yes. So I opened it and I pulled this card out.

[A]

Did you know that straight away when you.

[B]

She was basically hyperventilating and I was going, what? What's wrong? What's happened? Is this the card you were talking about? So we bought another pack the next week and she said, well, this is a different pack, but there's a top card in this one which is worth £400. I went, look, just don't. Okay. Opened the pack, pulled the 400 pound card out and she was like, wow, you are like some kind of magical pixie. I was like, I'm really not. This is just, this is just a bit of luck. However, I told my mom and my mom said that day put the lottery on. And I won £80 on the lottery as well. That face, obviously. I'm obviously having a bit of a look.

[A]

It's a special moment.

[B]

It's special moment.

[A]

What else are you going to do with this lucky streak? Any. Anything else you're going to try that you haven't been trying?

[B]

I don't know. I'm hoping today. Cuz as I walk along the beach I always say, come on, bring me something beautiful. I want to find a marble today. So I'm crossing my fingers and asking the sea pixies to bring me a marble today. Actually, the last time I found a marble on this beach, I stopped and went, come on, marbles. Looked down and there was a marble. Now I wonder if it's a. I wonder if it's the power of positive thinking. I don't know. I don't know. It's good when it happens though.

[A]

I like that. It's a good way to think. Whatever.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Because I think if you, if you remember these positive moments, it pushes the negative moments away, doesn't it?

[A]

What negative moments do you often try and push away? Oh, you mentioned your, your health.

[B]

Yeah. I have a. I have a condition called Ehlers Danlos syndrome, which means I decided dislocate my joints and I'm in pain all the time.

[A]

What's her name again?

[B]

It's called Ella's Danlos syndrome.

[A]

Ella's Danlos syndrome?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that a person?

[B]

Yes, it was two people. It was a Mr. Ella's and a Mr. Danlos who discovered this back in the 1920s. So I have that and I'm in pain all the time and it causes chronic fatigue. But I find that I come down here and it energizes me. And that was another reason why I kept coming because I found that if I was trying to rest in the house, it actually made me feel worse and more lethargic. So that got me down for a number of years. My daughter also has the condition as well because it's genetic. It's a collagen problem. It's a faulty collagen. So it affects your skin and your joints and everything and also your heart. Like I said, I'm autistic. My daughter's autistic and she had some really troublesome years between about sort of 8 and 11 or 12. But she's at a new school now and it's doing brilliantly, but for a lot of a long, long time, that was like constantly on my mind. It was the constant battle, a constant fight.

[A]

You've gone through those tricky. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But you've just got to absolutely cherish when you are having a good spell.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, what did they say? It's. They say you can't appreciate the good in life if you don't have the bad. And it's true. As I wake up some mornings and go, what have I got to worry about today? Actually nothing.

[A]

Do you think with your health condition, one, I suppose, small mercy slash bonus of that is that you really appreciate the days and you're feeling alright.

[B]

There is absolutely no doubt about that because I have had this conversation with older people, people in their 80s who've maybe been diagnosed with arthritis and saying, oh, this, I can't believe it's come to this. My quality of life is awful and I don't really want to use a walking frame. And I had come to terms with using crutches and a walking stick when I was about 49. It wasn't particularly nice, but. But you can either kind of kick and scream and kind of, you know, hate it, or you can sort of embrace it and think, right, okay, I need the best quality of life I can. So I'm gonna do what I can to have that quality of life and I'm gonna appreciate every moment. So you do. There's no doubt about it. Because I had two days on Saturday and Sunday last week which were awful, terrible, really bad pain. And after Saturday and Sunday, when I woke up on Monday morning and the pain was at a normal level for me, wow, it's like winning the lottery. It honestly is because you just say, oh God, I can, I can function. It's a huge win. You do really appreciate it.

[A]

It's a funny thought that, that really is the real lottery. You know, this idea, you know, we have the lottery with the money.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But you know, the other lottery is the important lottery.

[B]

It is. I remember when I was a kid, my older uncles and aunties and grandparents and things like that at New Year always toasted to good health. And as a seven or eight year old at the time, I used to think, God, they were obsessed with toasted a good health. Now it's not until you start to get older that you go, actually, yes, of course, health is everything. Good health is absolutely everything. And you don't appreciate having good health until you don't have good health.

[A]

So True. So true. I mean. But yeah, I literally have the exact same experience. My father used to toast to good health. Yeah. You know, if you're 10 years old. Okay, well, it's seems a bit of a wasted toast.

[B]

It does. When you. When you. Yeah. You need a kidney or something. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, it seems a bit pointless, but then actually, yeah, you're totally right. Then at some point it really kicks in again. No, that is the right.

[B]

Oh, yes, definitely.

[A]

Can I ask you about your autism a bit? When were you diagnosed?

[B]

Oh, gosh, 51. So four years ago. I'll be 55 next month.

[A]

So that's a late diagnosis.

[B]

That's a very late diagnosis. And it's a weird thing. And it's not an unusual thing. The pattern is you think your child might have autism. You look into it, they realize they have. They get diagnosed, you then look at yourself and some traits you might talk to. You talk to my mum about it. And then I've thought back and the weird thing is the condition that I have, ella's Danloss syndrome, EDS presents, as does hypermobility. About 40% of people with EDS have autism. And I remember reading that fact and thinking, oh, well, that's not me. But then all of a sudden your brain goes, well, hang on a minute. How about your childhood? How about when you were constantly like, the odd one, the weird one, the one that cried all the time at school, the one that couldn't cope with things, had sensory issues, was anxious, wouldn't eat any food other than I had three things that I ate. Corned beef.

[A]

Corned beef.

[B]

Corn beef, yeah. Beef paste sandwiches and chips. And even then my mom says, I didn't eat the chips, I just built houses out of them. So I wrote and I wrote and I wrote and I had an A4 notebook, and before I knew it, I had about 10 pages. And then I realized, yeah, I'm ticking every box. Yeah, there's absolutely no doubt about it.

[A]

What was that moment like when you, as you were ticking each box, realizing that this is actually that?

[B]

Yeah, that was. That was unbelievable. Like, light bulb moment. And it's weird because a lot of people, especially later in life, might think they might be neurodivergent but say, oh, there's no point in the diagnosis. It's not going to help me now. And I always say it does help massively, because it improves your own awareness of yourself. It makes you sort of more grateful and thankful and kinder to yourself. Because when you might be struggling and you go, God, you're stupid. Why are you like this? You go, well, you know why you're like this? It's because you're autistic. So accept that and be kind to yourself. And my daughter, I think, was 10 or 11 when she was diagnosed, and I was 51, so.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I know.

[A]

How do you stop yourself at that point from retracing kind of all your steps to that point point? There must be so much reanalyzing of what has happened up to that point. Or maybe it's a funny thing.

[B]

It's a funny thing. My. I'm very pragmatic, and I always look back at life and think, oh, well, I know why I did that. And, gosh, that was an awful time. My parents were frustrated with me because I wouldn't eat and things like that. And I can't go back and change all that now, and I wouldn't want to. But I do recognize going forward what helps me, what I need, what I don't need. I deliberately don't indulge in having a relationship because I need too much time for myself, my daughter. I also know that I need a lot of space and time, and I'm quite happy to be in my own head. A lot of people aren't. A lot of people need to be busy, busy, busy all the time. And I'm really happy with my own company. And I think as a child and a teenager and Maybe in my 20s and 30s, I felt compelled to feel fit in, and I went out, you know, Christmas parties that I hated. Whereas now I just go, no, thanks. There you go. It's brilliant. It's actually really free. And it's actually completely liberating because you just. For years of saying yes and standing in bars going, I don't want to be here. This is horrible. I hate it. I'm having a sensory overload now. We just go, no, I don't want to do that. So it's brilliant. You don't have to retrace any steps. All you need to do is look back and go, go. Okay. You did that because you were thought you were expected to do that. You tried to fit in. Let's not do that anymore. And I'll be so much happier than I am.

[A]

Yeah, great.

[B]

It's absolutely great. You know, people go, do you want to go out for a meal? No. To go to a party? Oh, no, thanks very much. You'll find me at the bottom of the garden looking up at the sky.

[A]

Brilliant. How did you navigate then, the kind of romantic worlds when you did being

[B]

autistic I don't get banter. So if anyone ever said anything kind of funny, I would think that that was very cruel. So like.

[A]

So you would take these quite literally.

[B]

Yeah, every very, very much so. And I could never work out what people were meaning. I could never work out what the motivations were once the penny dropped and once I was diagnosed I say, yeah, I was never meant to be in relationships because I'm quite a loner, I suppose. I like people and I like transient sort of friendships but nothing like, you know, I can't be in someone's company all the time, I can't be around somebody all the time. I also have an ADHD diagnosis which was more recent actually and was diagnosed by a female psychologist who also had adhd. And she asked this question, she said, you get bored, don't you? And I'm like, yeah, that's the crux of it as well. People get on my nerves and I get bored with them, I think.

[A]

So you're quite tough really of judge of character.

[B]

I mean you're quite a tough judge of character.

[A]

People don't have too much away from.

[B]

No. But then again I also think my daughter will tell you that I am actually very kind and I am very patient but I think my patience was potentially broken by maybe just having relationships with people who weren't very good.

[A]

How did you choose the people in your life that you did choose? Looking back at any. Are there any patterns?

[B]

It's a funny one that because I don't have a massive friendship circle. I have my best friend who I at met school when I was 13 and looking back I think she might be possibly new Divergent and that's the connection with us. So we've been friends now for like 40 odd years and I don't really choose anyone else to be close to me because I don't feel the need. Which again comes back to not having a relationship. But I'm the kind of person who indulges in a bit of an online community type thing. So I run a. It's like a book club basically and it's been running for years and the people on there because it's a very like minded thing and it's a very specific thing because it's basically one author. We're just talking about one author.

[A]

Oh wow.

[B]

Nigel Slater, the food writer.

[A]

Oh wow. It's a whole Nigel Slater.

[B]

It's. It evolved from one book, he has a book called the Christmas Chronicles and it grew from just being about that book into like a year long Kind of discussion which, which kind of very much play. Plays into the things that I'm interested in. So nature and cookery and the seasons foraging and things like that.

[A]

Nigel Slater knows about this.

[B]

I would love to think that Nigel knows about this club. In fact, I just thought about this yesterday because I've commented before on his Instagram and I, I'd love to think that he follows it. I'd love to think that he reads it. And I'd love to think that one day he let you go. Guys, hi, it's me. I've been reading this all along.

[A]

I've got a weirdly related story to. Okay, so my mother is a Nigel Sator fan.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

She's also the kind of person who, if anything, is slightly wrong with something, she kind of will try and tell someone even if that person is a kind of famous chef.

[B]

Right, Right. Yeah.

[A]

So she was making some profiteroles following his recipe and she's quite, you know, she's a big baker.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And it didn't go as she thought it would go. Okay. And so she, and she said, well, I followed this to the letter, like, something's not right with this, with this recipe. And so she emailed him telling you, explaining this in detail. And he sent her a really sweet one back.

[B]

Oh, he's a lovely guy. He's a lovely guy.

[A]

So I think, I mean, what I'm saying is I think you should, you should email.

[B]

That's quite the, that's quite the coincidence. I have actually pointed out myself, himself before because there is a recipe in one of his books that, that misses an ingredient. And I have actually pointed it out before. And he has gone onto his social media and said, like, look, before anybody else comments, I'm aware that the sugar is missing from this, by the way, it's 200 grams. But there's nothing I can do about the book now because the book's being in print for like, you should find

[A]

every single book and write it in.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, gosh. Bless. Well, that's a bit of a coincidence, isn't it? Wow. There's a leak.

[A]

My mother just now, just later.

[B]

Wow. Oh, she should join my club.

[A]

I'll tell her about it. You're famous in the Nigel Slater community.

[B]

No, no, I wouldn't go that far. But we, we, we're a beekeeping family as well. And I've, I've been on Master Chef and I've alluded to these things. You've been on Master Chef, So I, I. Wow. Very easy to find. Well, I'M actually quite unique in the fact that I wasn't on the run with the two guys that are no longer there and I wasn't on the original Lloyd Grossman. I was on a series that the late, great Gary Rhodes did in 2001 for one year only. Long time ago. Yeah. So.

[A]

But, yeah, how was that as an experience?

[B]

Oh, it was an incredible experience. It really was. I didn't win, but the producer was a lovely lady. She was a previous contestant. She came over to me afterwards and said, I really wanted you to win. You should have won. Would you do it again? I went, no, once enough, thanks. I wasn't, wasn't, wasn't too bad. And I've still got, like, the photographs of it. Do you know what? I'm sitting here now and I. I've picked out certain things that I can see around us on the bench here and I'm like, yeah, there's a stone over there that I'm going to get. And there's a one over there that I've spotted and that one looks interesting.

[A]

You can see it all.

[B]

Never switches. The brain never switches off. Yeah.

[A]

How is Gary Rhodes as. As a figure?

[B]

He was lovely. He was really lovely. But again, thinking about it now, the fact I didn't know I was autistic at the time. I was standing backstage and we were getting ready to start filming and he came over to introduce himself. So should have just turned the whim, shook his hand and said hello. But instead of that, I left him standing there with his hand outstretched while I went, I can't find any white pepper. And he went, pardon, I can't find any white pepper. Pepper. And he went, oh, sorry, sorry about that. Hang on a second. He rushed off, got some white pepper and brought it back. And I think about that now and I think, oh, that's such an artistic thing to do. Yeah. Yes. Oh, my God. And then the top things off, I was. I was actually married at the time. I was married in my. My 20s and early 30s, and my husband decided to come sort of through the door and more or less smacked him in the face with. With door as he came through from the Groo at green room.

[A]

Wow. So you really, you really left your mark on Gary Rhodes.

[B]

Yeah, I left me mark on Gary Rhodes. There's no doubt. Oh, gosh. Bless him.

[A]

How long were you married for?

[B]

Oh, gosh, I think we were together for about 10 years, but I. It just wasn't for me, as I've already said, don't like living with people.

[A]

Did you have a child with this person?

[B]

No, no, my child was. I had late around. I didn't have my daughter till I was 40. That was with somebody else. But to be honest, I'm still friends. Was my ex husband.

[A]

Yeah. So obviously you must be okay. I mean you're with someone for a long time, so it was, you know. Yeah, but that must mean you were denying yourself things in, in that relationship as you were going to. Does that make sense?

[B]

I think I just. I think I knew after probably being married for a year that it just wasn't for me.

[A]

Yeah, but then you wait, you still went where you went.

[B]

Yeah, because I think you, you do you. It's like a lot of people now when you, when you hear about people who really should be breaking up and don't break up and they say they're staying together for the kids and that, that type of thing. A lot of people persevere. Don't because they think it's the right thing to do. Nobody likes failure. If you like.

[A]

What do you think about that?

[B]

Oh, gosh. I mean, I come from parents who. My mum's original husband, my real father, was an awful man. If you're in a horrible marriage or a horrible relationship, your kids will know. They will feel that, they will see that if it's a toxic relationship that you get out because you, you're certainly not doing kids any favors by staying in a relationship.

[A]

So you subscribe to the idea that better that the kids don't have animosity and bad atmosphere in their life rather than having people on the same roof kind of for the sake of better

[B]

off with two happy parents than two unhappy parents. But unfortunately we still seem to live in a world that subscribes to the sort of like two parents being the norm and single parent being a bit kind of weird. I remember going to my daughter's old school and the. The person I was having a meeting with described our home as a broken home. And I thought that's disgusting because our home is beautiful and tranquil and calm and kind and loving. And it perhaps wasn't that when, when I was with her father. So it's a, it's a bit of a screwed up perspective that some people have of what's right and what's wrong and what's normal and what's not there. There's no doubt about it completely.

[A]

I think these things die hard, don't they? They're the kind of foundation stones of everything that's built into us as youngsters and in our society. And even by the law, you know, and the government, you know, if you're, if you're married, yes, it's beneficial tax wise, you know, you literally make more money.

[B]

It's unbelievable when you think about it.

[A]

Of course they incentivize it as a system.

[B]

Very strange. You've just made me realize that actually as an autistic person I find it hard to navigate my life. So maybe I am actually doing people a favor by remaining single because I don't want to place my expectations, my complexities and my. I've already told you that I've got quite a, like a restrictive life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Being single is not only just good for me, it's good for other people as well. I don't really want to affair.

[A]

I would say though, I think that if we take what we've just been saying about not going on what, what, you know, normal thing to do, whatever, or the, the standard approaches to relationships.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I don't think you necessarily need to deny yourself something in the sense that, you know, you can find someone who maybe fits into. Yeah, you can be very clear like this is who I am, this is what happens. Even if I see you every third

[B]

Tuesday, maybe that might work. That would work for a long time.

[A]

That could work for that, you know, you could find someone who's, who's like minded.

[B]

It would, it would possibly work for a lot of people. It wouldn't work for me at all at the moment, but I think that's because I have a 14 year old autistic daughter. I just don't have the time. But that might be something that might work for me in the future. But it's like anything as well, isn't it? It's like saying sexuality, it can be fluid, it can change over the years. Once you pigeonhole yourself as being. No, I'll never, I'll always be single. I do actually feel like that at most, but I'm not so rigid that I don't understand that things can and do change.

[A]

Talk about things changing. You were 41 when you had your daughter.

[B]

When I had my daughter, yeah.

[A]

So that, you know, that's, you know, a decent age to, to start.

[B]

Can you lead?

[A]

But timing is always perfect somehow.

[B]

Weird thing because I never wanted children and then it's been the most wonderful gift being a mother. I absolutely love it. I, I, I felt like I was made for it. I, me and my daughter are literally two like best friends. I've got two peas in a pod. So we understand each other so much and I, I really would have missed out if I had actually hadn't had. So that was a very.

[A]

So how did that all just happen then?

[B]

Found myself pregnant at 39. There's a, there's a little bit of a happy accident if you like. And I loved the pregnancy, I loved the birth, I loved every moment. I mean it has been tough because like I say she's autistic as well, so she's got her own issues. But I just thought, God, if I had never done this, what I would have missed out on. Wow.

[A]

So, so when you, when the happy accident happened, was there any part of you doubting what you should do?

[B]

No, absolutely not. And that's how I knew instinctively. Instinctively because I didn't like look at the pregnancy test and I go, oh my God, what am I going to do?

[A]

There was no opportunity.

[B]

Like this is just like it's a little bit of a surprise. But there was never ever any doubt. So to go from being very much, I suppose it's the black and white thinking to go from very much, I don't want children, I don't want children to go, oh wow, I'm pregnant. This is amazing. I mean I had a food business at the time which I had to sell and I mean I had to give quite a lot up cuz she's taken quite a lot of looking after because of, she's got some, some send difficulties and what have you. But it was, it's all been worth it. I wouldn't change any of it in a heartbeat. It's all been absolutely like the most amazing thing.

[A]

What's it like with the father? So you, so you. It was kind of happy accident. Did that make it a bit more complicated as a, as a setup?

[B]

There was quite an age difference. He was a lot younger, younger than me. He's 13 years younger than me. She doesn't see him an awful lot now. HE rings but it works for us because again it's that complex thing of we don't push people away. We're not horrible, nasty people but we do have limited energy and we have limited brain space. So she's tired after school, I'm tired after my day. We don't really like people kind of visiting very much. We don't really like have a lot of energy to give to other, other people but we keep in touch and, and you know, and he knows how she's getting on and we see him occasionally.

[A]

The younger man.

[B]

Younger man. I know.

[A]

What do you, I mean can you sell it? The younger man, you know, would you do it again.

[B]

I was, I was having this conversation with my hairdresser yesterday and I was telling her about when I split up with my partner, my daughter's dad. I split up him when I was 41. We were only together for about 18 months after she was born. Born. And then in my mid-40s, I did do a lot of online dating and all I ever attracted was the 23, 24, 25, 26 year old. So there's obviously there's something in there that I don't know what it is. I think maybe it's the childlike autistic in me who thinks I'm younger than I am. Maybe that's it. Maybe that's why I used to be drawn to younger people. But yeah, I mean it's obviously got its plus size, but then again it didn't work. But I don't think that was the reason why it didn't work. So don't know on the case, when we think about it, actually on the case of Falling pregnant at 40, maybe my subconsciousness knew I needed a younger man who was perhaps more fertile. There we go.

[A]

I think, I think that's a really, you know, absolutely fair thing to do.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

Fair call. Could be it, you know, there's a reason why we're all here.

[B]

There you go. There you go.

[A]

That's amazing. That's incredible. Well, I. Can I ask you three more questions and I'm going to leave you alone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then to pick glass. Is that right? Y. I was having a text conversation on the way here because as I mentioned earlier, got the Met, the metro.

[B]

Oh, yes.

[A]

And 20 years ago, I was actually. 20 years ago. Yeah. I went to university.

[B]

All right.

[A]

In Durham.

[B]

Durham, lovely.

[A]

And went to Newcastle a couple of times. We went to the coast a couple of times. We, you know, we rarely. We didn't do enough exploring.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I was texting, I said, I'm on the Met, Newcastle Metro now. Did you ever go anything? I think I went. He said, I think I went on it once. Which maybe makes it worse that I went on it once and never again. However, then I thought, I had a thought when he said this and I said, maybe a lot of our actual crimes are not the things that we've done, the things we don't do.

[B]

Totally, totally agree. Absolutely.

[A]

And so my question to you is, if you had to think of the things that you haven't done, that would represent to you a kind of small crime. Can you think of what they would be?

[B]

Oh, there's A couple of things. As a kid, I was very shy, painfully shy. Right. But I always wanted to have that kind of outgoing personality and be able to get on stage and act and sing. I would love to perform. I just never had the courage and the confidence. And I now regret that I see that my daughter's the same and I don't push up because I know that even if she regrets not being as outward as she wants to, if you can't do it, you can't do it. And pushing someone is not the answer. But I really, really wish I'd had the. Cuz I've done karaoke a few times and it comes back to that thing about passion and something that makes you feel good and really enjoying something.

[A]

So can we do more performing? Can we do any. Can you. Can that be. Can that be unleashed, that side of you?

[B]

I don't know, because I actually thought about this. I mean, my daughter's just getting to an age now at 14, where kind of, she's slightly more independent. So going forward, I'm thinking, you know, I might join some. Something like an amateur dramatics, or I might join something like a choir. Probably be more choir than average dramatics. But then I also always hear things about them being quite odd places and filled with weird characters. Choir, really? Oh, and the people. The people on my Nigel Slater chat are all in choirs. They're all in choirs and they all say, oh, my goodness. There's always that one person who sings ridiculously loudly and there's always that one person singing who, you know, they kind of follows you.

[A]

You can always move around in the choir. Right?

[B]

That's a possibility.

[A]

I would definitely do that. Choirs are amazing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, they're just a beautiful. Such a great thing to do.

[B]

It's true. Yeah.

[A]

I was in a choir quite recently with my child and there weren't that many fathers.

[B]

Yeah, I can imagine.

[A]

So there weren't. There weren't enough bases, so I was. I was in there. But anyway, point is, just fairly recently, and it's so joyous, I just. I completely recommend it. And even if there's someone weird, just, you know, shuffle about, sing louder.

[B]

It's going on my list. I have a list on my phone. Yeah, I have got a long list, but I have to do this. Yeah.

[A]

Can you read out your list, by the way? Is that. Okay?

[B]

So I have got, like, lots of things to do with the garden, like plant, plant the lettuce. Plant, plant. Things that I need to buy. I also want to write a book called The Sea Glass Diaries, which, weirdly enough, right, I thought about this idea only a few days ago, and the idea came about because of the conversations that I have on the beach. And a lot of these ideas will not come to fruition, but a lot of these things will. And if it's on my list of things to do, then I will work my way through it. And I've got a note of where all the blackthorn, all the local blackthorn has just flowered. And when it's in flower, that tells you where the slows will be in the autumn. And I pick slows in the autumn.

[A]

Are you a slow gin fan?

[B]

I hate it, but I love making it. So I make bottles and bottles and bottles of it, and then I give it all away at Christmas. I give it to my Waitrose drivers and everything. I'm like, yeah, you've got to have one of these for Christmas. So I've written down exactly where all the slopes are. Some at Richard's house, there's some opposite Sainsbury's, and there's some on my dad's roundabout. Right. My dad's roundabout being where he parks the car and he takes the trip dog for a walk.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah. And then I've just got things in, like, massive capital letters. Build the cold frame, move the bench, clear the table, paint the doors, move the swing, move the obelisks, strim the garden, dig out the blue bells. So I lost this list two days ago and I just started to retype it. It just ended up deleting. So I'm putting choir back on there now after losing it. So choir is now the first thing on that list of things you need to do. Look into it. Find one.

[A]

Go. I love that. So at the end of these podcasts is a song.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

And the song is especially composed for the episode.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I do have at some point the idea of getting a choir to sing the end song for one of these.

[B]

What a lovely idea.

[A]

So maybe the. The choir will. Will sing us out in this particular episode.

[B]

Lovely idea.

[A]

But then you have. Then you have to join a choir. Then imagine. Imagine if requires sung you out and then you didn't join a choir.

[B]

No, that would. I'd be very disappointed for myself. Yeah. I mean, no pressure or anything, obviously, but. No, I will, I will.

[A]

And then when you went to join the choir, they said, why you here is. He said, well, a whole choir sung me out, so I've got to be.

[B]

Wow. There you go. Right, okay. Wow.

[A]

No pressure.

[B]

No pressure at All. No, that's just given me.

[A]

Choir pressure is a good pressure.

[B]

Right. Choir pressure is a lovely pressure. If you're going to have pressure in life, then choir pressure is the one you would choose.

[A]

Well, yeah. How have you found the experience talking to a stranger at a bench?

[B]

Okay. Really good, actually. I don't know. I either pick me on a good day or. Anyway, you know, I find it strange that I say that I'm such a restrictive person and I have all these autistic characteristics, but actually I can kind of just get on with anyone and go with the flow and. And, you know, have my day interrupted. If I was. If I was actually that restricted, you would have approached me and I would have went, oh, no, I'm sorry, I'm very busy. Go away. So I'm actually quite, very open and kind of a very honest person. And I think this has been a lovely thing for me to be involved in, actually. So what a lovely thing to have that chance meeting. Thank you.

[A]

Beautiful. I'm gonna. There's one question that ends it before we're gonna do that. We're gonna do one other thing. So if you're okay with this. I ask people to close their eyes and they can imagine things. I ask them to think back to a kind of a moment or a scene in their life from the past. I'll close my eyes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Somewhere you go back to that you can describe in detail.

[B]

There's so many things, loads and loads and loads of things that I treasure so much. But the one thing that came to the forefront of my mind as soon as you said it, and I can't now move it out in mind, is seeing the aurora borealis in the most spectacular fashion. I think it was on the 10th of May, 2024. I've never seen color in the sky and movement in the sky like that ever in my life. And all I could do was just say wow, over and over again. Because these colours, when, when. When you think about the aurora borealis, you sometime, oh, you get like that green or whatever. This was like a rainbow, but at night in the dark. And it was green and yellow and orange and red and pink. And I was such a natural phenomenon to be so incredibly vivid. And it was one of those moments where you just think being alive is just amazing and incredible and the world is beautiful. It was something you go just completely and utterly immersed in. And it felt like such a. A privilege to witness. It really did. Very special.

[A]

There you go. You ready for the final question?

[B]

Come on, then.

[A]

Let's A look.

[B]

Take.

[A]

Do it. And then after that, the. The choir will start.

[B]

Okay. I'm looking forward to that. I really looking forward to that. Okay. I've got a song in my mind.

[A]

Oh, what the. What are you. What a song. What a tune.

[B]

Yeah, it's been playing in my mind while we were talking all the time, and I don't know why, other than the fact it's a song I love. It's Edge of Seventeen by Stevie Nicks.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Love that song.

[A]

That's a stage you're playing in your mind.

[B]

If. If I join a queen choir and I. And I enjoy it and I stay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I will put my little hand up and I will say, at some point. Can we see age of 17, please? There you go. See? Put that on the list.

[A]

Okay, fantastic.

[B]

Last question.

[A]

Yes. What are you going to do next?

[B]

When I stand up, bearing in mind I'm never quite sure my joints are going to be like. My brain will either say, you need to go home now and have a cup of tea, or, let's go and have a look and see if there's any more sea glass to be found. So it's gonna. It's gonna have to be a case of, when I stand up, have I got another half an hour in me, or am I gonna go home and have a cup of tea? In actual fact, with it being such a beautiful day, I will remain outdoors. So if I do go home, I'll go and sit in the garden and have a cup of tea. So either way, I will be somewhere beautiful. But I'm enjoying every minute of this blue sky because I don't get an awful lot of good weather in the northeast coast of England, to be honest. So I'm just going to enjoy every moment of this beautiful day. There you go.

[A]

Lovely. Thank you so much for your time.

[B]

You're very welcome.

[A]

I really enjoy talking to you.

[B]

I've enjoyed talking to you as well. Thank you.

[A]

I'm going to imagine this mountain of seed glass forever now.

[B]

It's hysterical. Honestly, you in the conservatory, God, honestly. It needs sorting.

[A]

Would you want seed last to appear in this choir singing about seed last?

[B]

Oh, that would be lovely, wouldn't it? That would be lovely. You won't find me. That's what I. And in the morning,

[A]

Everyone has their own rain.

[B]

Sa.

[A]

I.