EPISODE 99: Everyone Deserves To Have Secrets

Summary

Strangers on a Bench – Episode 99: "Everyone Deserves To Have Secrets"

Host: Tom Rosenthal
Date: August 3, 2026
Theme: The power of secrets, family, grief, intimacy, and the imperfections of life

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Episode Overview

In this deeply intimate and reflective episode, Tom Rosenthal sits with an anonymous guest on a park bench for a conversation that traverses redundancy, grief, parenthood, relationships, the roles we play, and the essential human right to privacy and secrets. The guest, recently made redundant after a 20-year career in journalism, is navigating a new chapter post-loss and seeking meaning through volunteering and introspection. Their encounter exposes the real, unglamorous side of grief, the challenges and illusions around long-term relationships, and the comfort and complexity of not knowing everything about those we love.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Life after Redundancy and the Search for New Patterns

• Guest’s Backstory: Recently left a 20-year job at a newspaper due to redundancy as the industry became "more of a churn churning digital thing" (02:09).
• Process of Letting Go:
  • The redundancy meeting felt “out of body,” lasting only 12 minutes (03:23).
  • Describes receiving a “golden ticket” and confronting the uncertainty and freedom of job loss (03:53).
  • Begins volunteering to establish a new daily rhythm.

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2. Grief, Impermanence, and Parental Relationships

• Father’s Death:
  • Guest’s father, also a journalist, died of esophagus cancer—an experience that deeply affected the guest’s perspective (04:17–07:05).
  • Reflects on challenging family dynamics as her mother emotionally distanced during the father's final moments (“She just seems to, like, find the whole thing terribly inconvenient.” – 07:09).
• The Messiness of Grief:
  • The guest attends grief therapy, wrestling with reality vs. expectations (05:14; 13:15).
  • “I feel like there's connotations with it in that, in certain industries, because you can be thought of as a bit of a Nepo.” – Guest (04:56).

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3. Family Secrets and ‘Not Like the Movies’

• Encountering Her Parents' Relationship:
  • The guest is surprised by her parents' emotional distance at her father’s end of life, disrupting the “movie script” version of intimacy (13:20).
  • “I guess I bought into an idea that if something like this was to happen, it wouldn’t play out the way it played out.” – Guest (13:20).
• Secrets, Privacy, and Mystery:
  • The father requests the guest destroy two black bin bags of papers—contents remain unknown, a symbolic act of secrecy and respect (24:02–26:06).
  • “I feel kind of good that I didn’t look, and that he trusted me with it. I think everyone deserves to have secrets.” – Guest (26:06).

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4. Romance, Relationships, and Choices

• Patterns in Love:
  • Guest reflects on short-lived marriage, a preference for space in relationships, and skepticism of romantic permanence.
  • Cites reading about impermanence from a Buddhist perspective, emphasizing presence and fleetingness (20:06).
  • “Hearing someone say, ‘This is my wife,’ it's like the least sexy thing I've ever heard.” – Guest (34:33).
• Societal Expectations:
  • Discusses weddings as performative, not personal (“People watch you write in a book and cut a cake and stuff. It's just a weird… accepted thing.” – 54:03).
• Affairs and Emotional Safeguards:
  • Admits to being involved with someone who was unfaithful, realizing the safety of unattainable relationships (41:00).
  • “I think maybe in retrospect I was… thought I was in love with him because it was safer.” – Guest (40:59).

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5. Secrets, Stories, and the Value of Not Knowing

• Searching for the Whole Story:
  • Tom and the guest discuss parental secrets, how not everything needs uncovering, and the dignity in the unknowable.
  • Tom shares his own background as the product of an affair (30:13).
  • “I think everyone deserves to have secrets.” – Guest (26:06).
• The Role of ‘Meaning’ and Listening:
  • Guest volunteers at The Listening Place, a face-to-face suicide support organization (44:26–47:06).
  • Observes that most people simply need someone to listen; “Listening has become a very rare thing because of the lives we live.” – Guest (46:24).

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6. Reflections on Impermanence, Presence, and The Meaning Crossroads

• On Money and Happiness:
  • Guest receives her redundancy pay (“this is the most money I've ever had, ever given in a lump sum”) and realizes:
    “It doesn't make you happy. Because it felt like it could have been half that amount or twice that amount, and the flatline feeling would have been the same.” – (60:04)
• Living in the Present:
  • “Supposedly [it] makes me live life in real time in the present.” – Guest, about Buddhist teachings and impermanence (44:18).

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Life’s Routine and Letting Go:
  • “We do all these things to pass the time, to get us from birth to death.” – Tom (00:52)
• On Grief:
  • "I was there when he died and the last couple of minutes I remember very strongly. Maybe like 98% of me was horrified by the whole thing and 2% found it kind of fascinating. Does that sound really macabre?” – Guest (05:46)
• On Family Dynamics:
  • “They’d been together 60 years. They didn’t want to be around each other. I just thought that was extraordinarily strange …" – Guest (12:27)
• On Parental Secrets:
  • “He basically like shot himself in [his study], then presented me with a couple of bin bags… I didn’t look in them … I feel kind of good that I didn’t look, and that he trusted me with it. I think everyone deserves to have secrets.” – Guest (26:06)
• On the Discrepancy Between Narratives and Reality:
  • “Sometimes we like to present as these are all the reasons why I’m happy, I’ve got this lovely house and this family … but really I saw something different.” – Guest (62:58)
• On Romance:
  • “I would have my AI boyfriend live separately... never want to do anything more than just hang out occasionally and go on holidays and stuff.” – Guest (32:45)
• On Letting Go and Perspective:
  • “I think I always had an expectation that [kissing] would be like the moment, a spark... but it’s not like the movies.” – Guest (39:56)
• On Volunteering & Listening:
  • “Listening has become a very rare thing because of the lives we live.” – Guest (46:24)
• On Happiness and Presentness:
  • “Happiness is just such an inside job.” – Guest (62:58)
• On Afterlife:
  • “I would like it to be content, grateful, calming … with an insight into people you love feeling the same.” – Guest (64:47)
• On Complexity and Judgment:
  • “One of my fears is that I might sound like a terrible person.”
    “I don’t believe in that as a concept … a lot of what you may think people may be critical of are things that actually are very human.” – Tom (67:36–68:22)

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Key Timestamps for Major Topics

• Redundancy and Leaving Job: 01:11–03:53
• Father’s Death and Grief: 04:17–10:40
• Family Dynamics and Marriage Reflections: 11:18–18:28
• Parental Secrets / Bin Bag Story: 24:02–26:06
• Romantic Relationships & Impermanence: 32:01–36:07
• Affair and Complicated Love: 40:22–49:03
• Reflections on Listening & Volunteering: 44:26–47:06
• Weddings, Traditions, and Meaning: 53:59–58:47
• Afterlife and Energy Discussion: 64:36–67:16

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Overall Tone & Atmosphere

The conversation is meandering, honest, and unguarded—balancing wit and humor (Tom’s signature) with vulnerability and honesty from the guest. There’s no sentimentality here, only the awkward beauty and complexity of life: grief isn’t cinematic, romance isn’t tidy, and secrets can be liberating rather than sinister.

The episode concludes with reflections on embracing openness, questioning narratives, and the quiet power of simply listening. Rosenthal’s gentle, quizzical interviewing draws out both laughter and thoughtful silences—preserving the guest’s anonymity and dignity while celebrating the shared strangeness of being alive.

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Closing Reflections

• “I think everyone deserves to have secrets.” – Guest (26:06)
• “Happiness is… an inside job… Sometimes we like to present as these are all the reasons why I’m happy… but really I saw something different.” – Guest (62:58)
• “It’s okay never to know, I suppose, even which way… just float about.” – Tom (62:57)

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For listeners: This episode is a poignant reminder that the stories we assume about others—especially those closest to us—are always partial; that privacy and secrets are a basic kindness; and that a good life may just mean embracing uncertainty, impermanence, and the bench-side mysteries we’ll never solve.

Transcript

[Interviewer]

Hello. Sorry to bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a.

[Podcast Guest]

So you just walk around and ask people on benches for a chat? Yeah, yeah, that's fun.

[Interviewer]

But it's a strange thing, you know, life is full of ridiculous things we do to pass the time. Well, to get us from, you know, from birth or death.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. Kudos to you.

[Interviewer]

You know, it's got to fill in the time. How do you fill in your time?

[Podcast Guest]

We started.

[Interviewer]

Started when we were born.

[Podcast Guest]

I've just taken redundancy and it's probably why I'm sitting on a bench in the afternoon on a working day. So I'm trying to find a new pattern of life. And also I just started volunteering as well.

[Interviewer]

Whoa, fantastic. Yeah, I'm always excited to anyone trying to start a new pattern of life.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

What was wrong with your old pattern?

[Podcast Guest]

I was working in the same job for 20 years.

[Interviewer]

Long time.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And what kept you there for so long?

[Podcast Guest]

Well, it was fun.

[Interviewer]

It was a good reason. And I guess you got money for it.

[Podcast Guest]

I got lots of money. Not a lot as well. It's a gradual ladder of money.

[Interviewer]

You had a ladder made out of money. I mean, that'd be way more exciting, wouldn't it?

[Podcast Guest]

Wouldn't it? Imagine that I would be clambering up that bad boy all the time, just

[Interviewer]

in cash, just strapped together. So there was money.

[Podcast Guest]

That was money. But that was fun. It was fun.

[Interviewer]

Why did you ever leave? What?

[Podcast Guest]

But then it got less fun.

[Interviewer]

Oh, because I was in the.

[Podcast Guest]

Working at a newspaper and it became more of a churn churning digital thing now.

[Interviewer]

So what you're saying is the computers ruined your life?

[Podcast Guest]

AI, It's a general theme for most people's jobs at the moment, isn't it? I've been there 20 years and they offered me a nice payout.

[Interviewer]

So I laugh when they offer you a payout. How did they do that?

[Podcast Guest]

They just did a sweeping. Like 48 jobs have been made redundant. Here's what you could have won if you want to take it. This is the figure. If you'd like to go. If you'd like to reapply for the job. There's like 24 jobs going. So I took the number.

[Interviewer]

And how do they do this, by the way?

[Podcast Guest]

They did it in some sort of way.

[Interviewer]

Does a town crier rock up and say 48 jobs.

[Podcast Guest]

It was very similar. Like they just suddenly put a meeting in our diaries. 50 people went upstairs to a corporate room that we'd never been to before and given a PowerPoint presentation. And then they said, if there's any questions, ask questions. And then one person asked questions. It all got a bit minor strike quite quickly. And then they said, no more questions. The questions are illegal.

[Interviewer]

Seriously? They said those words?

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah, they shut down the meeting, even though the meeting was meant to last

[Interviewer]

a couple of hours and they called it.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah, it lasted like 12 minutes and everyone had to go out.

[Interviewer]

So someone just got to them very quickly. They shut it down.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Wow. Okay.

[Podcast Guest]

That was like a weird sort of slightly out of body experience that I had with the whole thing. And then just went back down on a lift and sat on my desk. And then it was like a lot of people were just writing their CVs or frantically looking at the jobs that need to be applied for. And I just thought, oh, no, I can do that. And they've given me this golden ticket. Think. Starting to tap out. Wow.

[Interviewer]

It's an important 12 minutes in your life, then.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

If I had to press you for what has been another important 12 minutes in your life that you can remember.

[Podcast Guest]

I mean, my dad actually died last year and he worked in the same industry and sometimes I feel like there was a certain element of. I was trying to follow his lead.

[Interviewer]

Often you thought that or someone else thought that?

[Podcast Guest]

I think a lot of people might have thought that.

[Interviewer]

Were they right?

[Podcast Guest]

Maybe a little bit. But I did grow up in a household of journalists, both my parents, and it's a bit like, I guess growing up with butchers or something.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. You become kind of makes sense.

[Podcast Guest]

It does, But I feel like there's connotations with it in that, in certain industries, because you can be thought of as a bit of a Nepo.

[Interviewer]

Nepo baby.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. And with him, the 12 minutes.

[Interviewer]

Sorry, so. Yeah, that's the 12 minutes. Is that him dying?

[Podcast Guest]

Well, I didn't put a timer on it, but I was there when he died and the last couple of minutes I remember very strongly. So. Yeah. And I'm curious as to know whether one. Like, I would have been so chill about taking that next step if the other one. I don't know. I'm having a lot of grief therapy about it at the moment, so it

[Interviewer]

would make sense if the two tied together.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Can you describe the two minutes for me?

[Podcast Guest]

Oh, a lot of people say, oh, it's a privilege. I don't know if I'm there yet. Maybe like 98% of me was horrified by the whole thing and then 2% found it kind of fascinating. Does that sound really macabre?

[Interviewer]

No.

[Podcast Guest]

Oh, fascinating. In a sense. It was like turning off a light switch.

[Interviewer]

Sure.

[Podcast Guest]

I don't know if. Have you ever seen anyone.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, all right.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. Well, you know that it just. Not like the movies. He died at home as well. And again, not like the movies.

[Interviewer]

Not a lot of things are.

[Podcast Guest]

No, but I thought. I think he thought it might be.

[Interviewer]

He thought it might be.

[Podcast Guest]

I think we all thought it might

[Interviewer]

be like the movie.

[Podcast Guest]

We're all, like, sitting around bed and someone says something. He says some things and then takes a last breath and, you know, but it's not. It's like district nurses, revolving doors of carers and morphine and horrible, horrible things happening and. Yeah, sorry, it's upsetting still.

[Interviewer]

Of course it is.

[Podcast Guest]

But, yeah, I was the only one with him when it actually happened.

[Interviewer]

There's a reason for that.

[Podcast Guest]

Well, my sister had gone home because she has kids and Mum was downstairs drinking rose and watching telly. She just seems to, like, find the whole thing terribly inconvenient.

[Interviewer]

But I suppose it is.

[Podcast Guest]

It is. It really was. It was not convenient to the plan of let's have dad alive, please. So it was kind of awful. And then he died and then Mum slept in the room with him and we didn't get the person round until the next morning, which was kind of strange as well. But I think the whole thing was so strange that nothing seemed strange. Although that does sound strange in retrospect, that she, like, slept in with him for, like, 10 hours and he was dead. It didn't seem strange at the time.

[Interviewer]

I mean, if you wanted to do that, it's not strange at all.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah,

[Interviewer]

I kind of believe in sometimes why people die at certain times with certain people. But do you think there's anything to read into the fact that your father died when it was just you?

[Podcast Guest]

I mean, there could be. When he was in hospital, we regularly talked about us being, like, best mates. And he said to me, oh, I was the first one to hold you when you were born, because my mum had an emergency Caesarean and all this kind of stuff. We certainly had a deep trust for each other. And when he died of. Well, we think it was esophagus cancer, but it basically just exploded in his body. He was 77, so it doesn't sound bad, but to me it seemed too early as well. But the last Christmas we had Together I was sharing a cheese board and drinking port with him and he died on 5 February and start to get ill sort of mid January. I couldn't fathom it. And then I went back home and he like read the Daily Mail way too much and was all like, I'm not going to hospital, I'm going to wait to see a specialist. I don't want to like be in a corridor, blah, blah. And I got back and I was like, we need to go to hospital. Like I couldn't believe what I was seeing. And so I took him to A E and then sort of negotiated. When I say negotiate, I mean begged. I literally got on my knees and begged for bed because I just couldn't, I couldn't bear it, he was so ill. And I wouldn't say it worked, but it worked.

[Occasional Commentator]

Yeah.

[Podcast Guest]

And I said, all right, like I love you so much, dad. And he said, I hope you've left me in no doubt of that. Like you played an absolute blind to hear. And then it was just hurtling towards. Palliative care and then end of life care. So that was a space of three.

[Interviewer]

So he had on. On Christmas Day, he didn't feel anything strange? He didn't see anything strange. I mean, he sensed it. Sometimes when you're, you know, the closest people, you just don't really see it. Do you think you were?

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah, My sister said she's wrote in her journal, I don't think Dan had seen very well that day, but I didn't see. But you know, like Christmas, sometimes you feel like you're in this like time loop. I go back to my parents and go back to this existence where we get all the same decorations out, tablecloths, everything. So it's like everyone gets a bit older and things do change, but it seems the same. So maybe I just didn't see it. She did.

[Interviewer]

That's interesting.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. So you're kind of in a. You're in the child role anyway there. Children don't see quite as much.

[Podcast Guest]

Just like, look after me. Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

And it's interesting that obviously suddenly everything flips.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And now you're kind of the grown up trying to sort him out.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. And that's exactly what happened with him because he didn't have a big leading up illness. So he went from being this really strong into this exercise every morning to being. He was trying to message somebody and he just dropped his phone and just couldn't. He was so exhausted. And then I was the person trying to rally everything, get Everything done like writing spreadsheets of carer timetables and pills I had to give and all this kind of stuff. Then it was all consuming. And I do remember thinking, what do I do when I don't have to this, even though this has been my life for a matter of days, you

[Interviewer]

knew it was gonna be very different on the other side.

[Podcast Guest]

Basically, yeah.

[Interviewer]

And those are three weeks. Did anything surprise you about what your dad said to you or kind of did you hear anything for the first time?

[Podcast Guest]

One thing that surprised me was the relationship between my mum and dad in that moment. Again, absolutely not like the movies. I mean they've been together like 60 years. They didn't want to. Seem to want to be around each other. And I just thought that was extraordinarily strange and couldn't fathom that two people have spent so long together. Didn't want to be together in the last moment. Like I said to you, I was doing greed therapy but most of my grief seems to revolve around this.

[Interviewer]

So what you're grieving really is what you thought you knew about your parents relationship?

[Podcast Guest]

I think so. Like obviously like I knew they bickered and like, you know the dynamic of your parents. I guess I bought into a sort of idea that if something like this was to happen that it wouldn't play out the way it played out. And I was just like, well, there's no going back, you know, we're against the clock. But she just didn't seem to budge on that. And then he didn't seem to want her around. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And I haven't spoken to her about it. And then no huge surprise that maybe she's downstairs with the rose. It's all starting to make a bit of sense now.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. So that part. And then there's this. I feel a bit mean like saying this actually feel it mean.

[Interviewer]

I don't think. I mean you haven't really said anything. You've just said things that have occurred. I mean also I think as you were talking, I would imagine that this scenario is not that unlikely. I just feel like there's a chance that that's not unheard of thing. I don't know if this is like a kind of an odd support group to seek out my. My parents. My parents weren't as together as I thought they were on the point of death. Yeah. But I'm sure, I'm sure that probably is something.

[Podcast Guest]

I think you're probably right. I think it was just hard. It was a strange thing to.

[Occasional Commentator]

Wow.

[Interviewer]

So mother's still Around, Yeah. So you've not asked her about all this stuff or you have?

[Podcast Guest]

I haven't. I feel like whatever I said, she would just hear something. Accusation.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Podcast Guest]

That she would just hear it as. What would you mean?

[Interviewer]

But would you be accusing her of anything or would you just be asking questions?

[Podcast Guest]

I would love to ask her how. How do you feel about that now? But I think it would just upset her and I don't think I'd get anything that would be like a proper grown up answer.

[Interviewer]

I mean, here's another proposition for you that I think probably is the most painful one. You know, your parents and all our parents enjoyed a different age where in some social circles to get divorced or whatever was like, you know, a matter of great shame in some families. And people just didn't do it, you know, when they should have done. And maybe it all comes out in the end, you know, everything's a mirror. How could you not then look at her own life, her own decisions, what might have been, you know, like we still have these dreams. Were everage so kind of. I don't know. I feel like that's also just a realistic proposition.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. It's funny you say that because when we were in the hospital, I felt like it was like almost a bit of a prepared speech, but he was like, well, you know, some people might say, why me? But I think, why not me? And all this kind of stuff. And I thought, oh, I've heard that. So I'm like, I had heard. I know it's quite cliche.

[Interviewer]

Oh, interesting you had heard it.

[Podcast Guest]

I heard it because Joe Biden said it when his kid died and then this other kid had cancer or something.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. It was just regurgitating a Joe Biden's feet

[Podcast Guest]

in there. And then he'd said, I've had, you know, I've had a wonderful life and I've traveled all over the world and I've married my teenage love. He was saying it to these doctors and I was like, wow, that sounds different than it looks. But maybe that's. Maybe like what you said is right. Maybe that's because certain generations want to say that sentence. I met her when I was 18. We were together nearly 60 years.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I mean, just. Just out of interest, how many couples do you know of, roughly your age, who met when they were a teenager, who are still.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah, I like a. I do. I do know a couple in Reading. Not Londoners.

[Interviewer]

Same with me. I know one, I know one. And with prostitutes, it's always great what you hear when people Fly past. I know one couple. Yeah. I mean, I've known hundreds of couples, you know, hundreds of couples we both know one couple each who have stayed together after being teenage loves. The odds are really stacked against your teenage loves, probably for a reason.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. And, oh, my God, if I think about the boyfriends I had as teenagers. Jesus Christ.

[Interviewer]

There you go. So imagine staying with one of those forever.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So maybe. I just think your mum was probably just reflecting on her own life and just. Just kind of just done with it all. Or maybe she just wanted. I mean, maybe yours is really overthinking your mum's general approach here, but maybe she. That's her way of telling you.

[Podcast Guest]

Maybe.

[Interviewer]

I mean, if it is the case, you know, let's imagine your mum turned around one Sunday lunch, whatever, and said, I should have left your dad, like, 50 years ago. What would that mean to you?

[Podcast Guest]

I mean, I have to put that grease therapist on speed dial, but.

[Interviewer]

Interesting, though. But. So here's the question I'm interested in why that would bother you so much.

[Podcast Guest]

Do you know what my instant reaction is? I'm just gonna say it out loud because it terrifies me even more about, like, my own choices. If she was to suddenly declare that, I feel like, what a waste of life being with someone you don't want to be with.

[Interviewer]

So that. That would be. So you'd feel sad for both of them? Essentially, yeah. And that's why it would be painful.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. And then I'd feel scared. I think I'd feel scared all the time for all choices. If the idea came forward that I've spent 50 years, like, over here or he's been over here, that would be terrifying to me.

[Interviewer]

How have your own choices been?

[Podcast Guest]

My own choices of.

[Interviewer]

Well, so we know you're not with any teenage loves.

[Podcast Guest]

I'm not with any teenagers.

[Interviewer]

We've ruled that out.

[Podcast Guest]

I. I feel. I feel good overall about my choices. I find them interesting and reflect on them. Are we talking about romantically?

[Interviewer]

I mean, I was kind of veering towards romance, but really, however you want to talk about your own choices in relation to your. To your mother's situation or potential situation.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. Well, I've been reading a lot recently about impermanence and, like, trying to have a good relationship with it.

[Interviewer]

With impermanence?

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. Well, it started off learning about it in the Buddhist way of, like, if you can reflect that this is the only thing that exists this second right now, then it will make you enjoy this second right now because it's precious. But if right now My head is, will I ever get married? Or thinking about what I didn't do for dad or whatever, the past, the future, all these things. Then the impermanence becomes quite terrifying. Our thoughts are so powerful sometimes that we just assume they're going to happen. And ultimately, maybe this is leaping back to Mum's behavior because maybe she just didn't understand that he was dying, even though she should understand death by the age of 77. Maybe she just thought, well, if I just ignore this thing, that's permanently going to happen from now on. That was what her behavior seemed like.

[Interviewer]

But, you know, maybe there's something in that. Maybe it's just like it was just another moment for her.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I've had a million moments. This person, one of them was them dying. Death is such a big headline, isn't it? But like, you know, it's just one day of their life in which of course, there are so many other everything else, you know, and if you think about that, maybe she's just kind of gone. Well, it's another day.

[Podcast Guest]

I love how chill you make herself.

[Interviewer]

I'm painting your mother. Yeah, well, you did. You know, you say she's downstairs with the Rosie. Sounds quite chill to me.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. Yeah, it is. One moment, one day. It's just so shit that overall, that build up to that one day has to be so terrible for the person.

[Interviewer]

I think it's a very good. I think it's a good idea to quit the job, though.

[Podcast Guest]

Do you?

[Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. It's better to just confront these things rather than just shy. Like nothing, nothing is understood by shying away from stuff.

[Occasional Commentator]

Right.

[Interviewer]

You want to understand yourself, you want to understand your family, you understand your dad, you understand his death.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

All these things are not going to be done by just busying yourself.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

It makes sense to have it. To have a change.

[Podcast Guest]

My sister is painting every single room in our house on loot. Yeah. Like, she's sort of like a caricature of someone keeping themselves busy. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Podcast Guest]

And it's.

[Interviewer]

Well, it's good for you to see what the other side looks like.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Probably somewhere in the middle is the dream.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You're both, you know. Is there another sibling? It's just you two.

[Podcast Guest]

Just us two, unfortunately.

[Interviewer]

Do you think I got quite into at one point as part of my. The process of my dad dying to try and find out some information about him that could only be found out through certain means, like contacting people that he had worked with and I found that really useful. We all are a bit Comedian, like in our social interactions. And there's a good chance your dad had a whole side or sides to himself, which he showed to certain people and not to you.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You know, sometimes it's really useful, even if some of those sides aren't particularly pretty, whatever, to know a bit more about those sides and get a fuller picture.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. It's interesting that you say that before he died, when he came home, he added like a tiny bit of energy still. And he had a study and it was like packed to the rafters full of stuff. And he was like, I need to spend some time in my study. And he was like, I feel a bit bad sharing this story. Actually. I haven't shared it with anyone. Should I? I mean, it's not that informative, but it's interesting.

[Interviewer]

If it's on the tip of your tongue, it must mean something.

[Podcast Guest]

Well, only because you triggered it by saying about knowing about his life. And then he said, can you bring me some bin bags? And I said, oh, there's some in here. Because there was like a load of recycling bags in there already and they were see through. And he was like, no, can you get me some black bin bags? So I got him a couple of black bin bags and he basically like shot himself in there, then presented me with a couple of bin bags, had tied them up and was like, can you take them downstairs? And then can you put them in the bin? And then can you wheel the bin out? Because the bin's being collected tomorrow. And in that process, I realized that there was something in them that could be huge or could be like, I've actually discussed this with my sister and she was like, I mean, it could be poor on. But then there was. We did find old retro porn. So I don't think it was. I don't think he'd be that bothered about that, but. And then I didn't look in them because it was his, obviously his wish not to. And I did wheel the bin out. And the next morning I went into his room. The first thing he said to me was like, can you look out the windows have been being collected. And I checked the bin, meant it bean. And whatever was in those bags is gone. I try not to think about it too much, but obviously there's, you know, me and my sister being like, is it another sibling? Was it an affair? Are they love letters? Something really rude or dark or. I don't know what it was, I'll never know. But it was kind of. I feel kind of good that I didn't look, and that he trusted me with it. I think everyone deserves to have secrets.

[Interviewer]

Wow. I'm thinking, I mean, two or four bin bags of papers.

[Podcast Guest]

I say it's papers. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Your definite papers.

[Podcast Guest]

I'd say so. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Describe the weight of each bin bag.

[Podcast Guest]

Maybe the equivalent of like 8, 10 newspapers.

[Interviewer]

Like weekend newspaper.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. With the supplements for the ads removed. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Okay. So eight to ten weekend newspapers worth of weight.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. But again, like, you know, he didn't want to dick about with recycling. He was like, you put them in the main bin. I don't care.

[Interviewer]

It wasn't the time for recycling.

[Podcast Guest]

Sticklers for recycling. So for once he.

[Interviewer]

My go to thought would be that, like, you're not gonna have that volume of love letters. No, that'd be like a mad stack.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah, that's true.

[Interviewer]

That'd be rampant love letters.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. Then my sister was like, oh, could be like a whole secret family. But that wouldn't work out. I mean, they would never see him.

[Interviewer]

I think just having loads of papers probably doesn't necessarily be a secret family.

[Podcast Guest]

No.

[Interviewer]

So this. Really intriguing, isn't it? I mean, would your mom know? Did you tell your. We haven't told your mom.

[Occasional Commentator]

No.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. I mean, personally, I like what you said about we've all got a right to keep secrets.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I fundamentally did the right thing.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I'm guessing he was thankful. Was he thankful that you had done this?

[Podcast Guest]

It was more just like a straight. Do this, like a tone. Right. Where it's like, this is official. So I guess without him saying, I knew that it was a thing that needed to be done.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Podcast Guest]

Especially because I like, with. I prodded it a bit with the. Well, there's been bags up here, but they were see through bitbags.

[Interviewer]

That's also intriguing because, like, what would you have seen in the see through Bim? Like, if they just weren't. Would it encourage you to have a look? I don't know.

[Podcast Guest]

Maybe it was porn. I don't know. I don't think it was because we found porn.

[Interviewer]

So have you found old school magazine porn? So if you found old porn, that probably means what do you mind talking

[Podcast Guest]

to a stranger about? My dead dad's porn.

[Interviewer]

My dead dad's porn.

[Podcast Guest]

Oh, Lord.

[Interviewer]

But it's. Look, if you go back to what he said in the hospital, you know, here's a person, he's got his speech lined up, he's saying it. No, I've lived this life and Joe Biden, you know. Yeah. A Joe Biden life. You know, I've been A president. La la la. And you know, it makes sense then that like you don't want people going to your study and find anything that would dampen.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And he knows people are going to go through some stuff, you know, so he's got a vision of what he would like to be seen as clearly.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So then, yeah, you're looking for things that dampen the vision. A huge stack of porn, maybe something he would consider a reputation dampener.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I would say for your own well being and generally as really as a guest. I think it's both. I think they both make sense.

[Podcast Guest]

I think you're right. I think I'm still stuck in this like the movies thing, aren't I? I want it.

[Interviewer]

I think you've learned now this is

[Podcast Guest]

not like the fucking movies.

[Interviewer]

Nothing is happening that relates to the movies in any way. No, but I mean, but sometimes it's changed in the movies. He might have had affairs. I suppose he think he could have had affairs. But that's not going to be in. That's not going to be in.

[Podcast Guest]

You're right. I mean that would be some serious material.

[Interviewer]

I mean, look, I can. Like, so my mother had an affair with my father as I was born.

[Podcast Guest]

Oh.

[Interviewer]

You know, so I could text mother now and say, mother, like if you had to count all these, the letters you received from my dad, like how big is the stack?

[Podcast Guest]

Would she say? Definitely two black.

[Interviewer]

Well, it's funny, I just had two black. Big bang. If you wanted some inso information, you

[Podcast Guest]

were the outcome of an affair. That's amazing.

[Interviewer]

It happens. Probably left, right and center.

[Podcast Guest]

So they never got together?

[Interviewer]

Not officially, no.

[Podcast Guest]

Oh yeah. Wow, how fascinating. Yeah, well, I suppose it's not fascinating to you.

[Interviewer]

Well, no, it's not to me but I mean it is. It's a way of being born.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You know, it's got to be born some way and then, you know.

[Podcast Guest]

How does that make you feel about people having affairs?

[Interviewer]

Love it. No, it's a really good question. It's a really good question. I naturally, I think affairs fundamentally, you know, never ideal. They often hurt a lot of people. Understandably. But also it's the real world, you know, life is brutal and sometimes we're humans and humans have desires and it happens and it obviously happens all the time, everywhere, forever. I. Yeah, I feel lucky that I was born, I suppose through one.

[Podcast Guest]

Good.

[Interviewer]

Because I was definitely a 50. 50. Will they keep me? Will they not? It was my mum's choice.

[Podcast Guest]

You have siblings from her side or.

[Occasional Commentator]

No.

[Interviewer]

All right, that's Just me, my mother's only boy.

[Podcast Guest]

So you knew your dad growing up?

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Podcast Guest]

Oh, okay. But he was married to someone else.

[Interviewer]

Correct.

[Podcast Guest]

That's fascinating.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Podcast Guest]

I got really fascinated quite recently with Harold Pinter and Joan Bakewell's Affair. Did you know it was turned into that stage play?

[Interviewer]

Yes, but I don't know that much about it.

[Podcast Guest]

Oh, wow. It went on for like. I think it went on for 11 years.

[Interviewer]

How heavy were their bid bags?

[Podcast Guest]

Well, exactly. I mean, this is the thing. Their love letters are in the British Library. You can ask, go read them. So I like did. And it was like, oh, you went

[Interviewer]

just to read the love letters.

[Podcast Guest]

Wow. But it was such the intensity. I mean, a love letter affair is. You're not going to get that these days. It's beautiful. You try. But there's this problematic thing now with people with the AI boyfriends and girlfriends, always young people.

[Interviewer]

Oh, you can say, right, me a left or something.

[Podcast Guest]

Well, you can. They will do everything you want. But it's a fascinating sort of craving, I think, especially for younger women, that they're all like terrified of these misogynistic men who've been watching porn since they were 10 and they've got like AI boyfriends who just like constantly contact them, tell them they're amazing. Like when they say, do I look good? They say, yeah.

[Interviewer]

Right. So what would you have your AI boyfriend do?

[Podcast Guest]

I would have my AI boyfriend live separately

[Interviewer]

as easily arranged

[Podcast Guest]

and never, never want to do anything more than just hang out occasionally and go on holidays and stuff. But like.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, so let's just rewind a minute. So you want your AI boyfriend, actually, but also, you mean really your actual boyfriend to be someone who doesn't live with you.

[Podcast Guest]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Podcast Guest]

But has his like own life and then never talks about, like when we live together.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. You can never mention. Don't even think about.

[Podcast Guest]

This is the impermanence thing. We're only here now, let's not ruin this.

[Interviewer]

So basically, so the occasional holiday, how long a holiday?

[Podcast Guest]

I'd like it to be like a sort of father in a childhood divorce situation where we do weekends and holidays. And that's about like. I have lived with people for several years and I did get married for a very short period of time.

[Interviewer]

Oh, did you? Yeah, that's a plot twist.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

A little bit of marriage there. Chucked in.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Did you have to live with this person?

[Podcast Guest]

I did, I lived with them. Well, we were together like five or six years and then we got married and then we broke up.

[Interviewer]

There you go, there's a lesson somewhere in there.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

What was. What. What was so bad about marriage that you just.

[Podcast Guest]

Well, he had quite ferocious bipolar.

[Interviewer]

All right.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. That's not great for marriage.

[Interviewer]

So why was the marriage bit problem if he had that already?

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. I have reflected on it a lot. I think for me, marriage took away something fun.

[Interviewer]

You are big on this impermanence thing. I know it is the central part of your life now. I just realized this is it.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I do remember the central core.

[Podcast Guest]

Hearing someone say, this is my wife, it's like the least sexy thing I've heard.

[Interviewer]

Sounds like you need to be having a face.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. I mean, I just didn't gel with that. I was younger and I just did that society thing. Oh, I wasn't that young. I was like in my early 30s and I don't have children, but I never wanted children. So it wasn't about that.

[Interviewer]

Too permanent.

[Podcast Guest]

Me, I read this thing recently that somebody described. It was a woman, woman writer. The idea of having children as filling her pockets with stones and slowly walking into a lake. And I really resonated with me. I just thought, I can't. I just never wanted it. Thank God. It never felt like a pull for me. And I see people. Do you have children?

[Interviewer]

I do have two.

[Podcast Guest]

I'm sorry, I criticize. You're not criticizing children. Children are cool and everything.

[Interviewer]

I have no. I think any which way of approaching children. Not having children. Absolutely fine.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

But there's bonus points either side.

[Podcast Guest]

Right. I think I could have been okay at being a dad.

[Interviewer]

Still time.

[Podcast Guest]

No, Like, I always sounded like a gig that I could have done quite like. Because I had a really good dad.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Podcast Guest]

He made it look great.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Podcast Guest]

I just look, being a mum looks. That looks rough to me. It's hard.

[Interviewer]

It definitely is hard.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

That's for sure. So that's parenthood. So that's not something you want to do?

[Podcast Guest]

No, it never appealed to me.

[Interviewer]

Do you like looking after anything?

[Podcast Guest]

I have two cats.

[Interviewer]

There you go.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

But you did live with someone at some point. You lived with your husband?

[Podcast Guest]

I lived with a few people, yeah.

[Interviewer]

How quickly did.

[Podcast Guest]

But, you know, I always wanted them to go.

[Interviewer]

You always wanted them to go?

[Podcast Guest]

Like, not go, go. But I always. There was something always in me where I'd be a bit like when they talked about, I've got to go back to his house or whatever. I'd be like, I didn't want them to go. That's not fair. I mean, I think I loved that dynamic when that changed, I found it difficult. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. One of the best songs I've written. I used to write songs. Well, I still do, I suppose. It's a song that kind of wasn't one of my more popular ones, but I totally still. When I think about it, I totally still believe it. And I wrote a song quite early on, probably my relationship anyway, called I like it when you're gone, based on exactly what you were saying. Essentially, like, we did all these lovely things together. But actually I also really like it when you're gone. Yeah, like, that's okay. But again, it's like admitting to ourselves the realities are so false. We're not allowed to say some of these things because, like, you know, if you're around a dinner party with your, say, previous husband and you're like, oh, I love it when Mark leaves the house. I'd be like, oh, God.

[Occasional Commentator]

What?

[Interviewer]

You can't say that.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

He wasn't called Mark, was he?

[Podcast Guest]

He was not. That's good.

[Interviewer]

Otherwise that would be a creepy prediction.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. That sounds like a fascinating song.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, it's quite good.

[Podcast Guest]

It reminds me a bit of the Beach Boys song about, like, I may not always love you being the first line. And it's obviously a beautiful, romantic song that loads people tune into, but it's quite a kicker for a first line. But it's true. This might not be forever. So, like, let's lock into it.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. How do you do romance now? When was your last kiss?

[Podcast Guest]

Oh, about a month ago.

[Interviewer]

What was it like?

[Podcast Guest]

It was textbook.

[Interviewer]

That's a perfect ambiguous word because to me, textbook could mean so many different things. In football, if you say, oh, that's a textbook finish or something, that would be like a really good. Yeah, but text equals are really. Oh, like, you know, get the old French textbook out, blah, blah, very boring. So you mean it in the latter one. A bit dull.

[Podcast Guest]

Kissing is strange, isn't it? Because it's very. I think that's very important, right?

[Interviewer]

Kissing?

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. It's like immediately either putting a wall up on the next stage or. I don't know. I feel like when we were younger, we forgave bad kissing, but I don't. I don't feel like that's possible anymore. So. Yeah. Probably wasn't as exciting as the I was hoping for it to be. I think I have had some good kissing, but overall, I. My kissing situation has been.

[Interviewer]

What, in your life?

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah, there's been some good, but I

[Interviewer]

wouldn't say there's been predominantly not great.

[Podcast Guest]

No, no, not do you want to

[Interviewer]

give a percentage about kissing?

[Podcast Guest]

I feel like I'm just going to like keep on pumping out that. It's not like the movies lie. I think I always had an expectation that it would be like the moment, a spark, the. But I think as well, because I'm English, there's a lot of alcohol involved and, you know, it's hard to meet somebody and like, you know, kiss them.

[Interviewer]

I mean, do you think you've been in love?

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. Yeah. I don't want to trigger you. I did have a thing with somebody who was with somebody else. I think maybe in retrospect I was. Thought I was in love with him because it was safer. I don't know. Sounds terrible.

[Interviewer]

So this was an affair?

[Podcast Guest]

Well, I wasn't having an affair.

[Interviewer]

But he was, he was with you.

[Podcast Guest]

I thought I was in love. I think I was in love with the idea because it was so disconnected from reality.

[Interviewer]

Sounds like your absolute dream.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. It's bad, isn't it?

[Interviewer]

No, but I think that's. I mean, again, this is. It relates to what you're like.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So how long does that last?

[Podcast Guest]

Oh, maybe about eight months. But it got, it got dramatic.

[Interviewer]

Can you say more? It is.

[Podcast Guest]

He said a load of things but they turned out to be a lie. Yeah. To everyone. And then, you know, the wife found out and then it was all exploded

[Interviewer]

and so what was the lie he told you?

[Podcast Guest]

Oh, he told me that he wasn't really in that relationship anymore, that he lived separately and that it was a complete done deal. I did meet his friends and I did like we did sort of be a bit of a couple together.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Podcast Guest]

We went away together. But like, I don't know, the lies, the lies. He was pedaling just sound exhausting. And when I found out, I was like, oh, yeah, that's boring. But again, I think it was easy to be in love in those situations. Like Joan Bakewell. He didn't get me in my own flat though. She, she managed to get that off Pinter.

[Interviewer]

You know what we. I didn't finish the thought actually.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You know you said about everyone had a right to keep secrets.

[Podcast Guest]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

Which I agree with. And I, and I like the sentiment of. Even though I'm quite nosy and like,

[Podcast Guest]

like find out things.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You. In terms of obeying his wishes, your dad, you know, his wish was get rid of these papers. You did that. Good job, High five from dad, etc. But I think now that he's dead, I think it's fine to be like okay, well, I want to find out more stuff. I want to maybe go through some of this study. Want to see what his writing is there to see what you can find.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah, I find it very difficult going through his stuff, I think. Not because of the bin bags, because. I don't know, it's hard, isn't it? I don't know what you found with your dad, but yeah, in theory, like he, he interviewed loads of people.

[Occasional Commentator]

Okay.

[Podcast Guest]

So there's loads of recordings of him. So a bit like you, there's stacks and stacks and stacks of cassettes of like interviewing celebrities and stuff. But I haven't played a single one. I haven't bought myself like a cassette set player because to know the disconnect from like. What I really want is new words to hear.

[Interviewer]

But plot twists, they will be new.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah, they'll be new in a weird

[Interviewer]

way because actually they won't be like. It won't be reflecting on his own set but actually will be new perspectives, new insights or even if it's just a kind of odd spark, even if it's just something that's just like spurs you on to some kind of meaning.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Seems like you're a bit, you're in a meanings phase. Crossroad.

[Podcast Guest]

I think so. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's.

[Interviewer]

Which I think is actually also a great position to be in. So what, what are the options? Let's go through it. So you're reading a lot about impermanence. That's not going to change anything about your impermanence.

[Podcast Guest]

No, just makes me supposedly live life in real time in the present.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. You said about volunteering.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. So I'm volunteering at this place called the Listening Place. Have you heard of it?

[Interviewer]

No.

[Podcast Guest]

It's a bit like a Samaritan's, but it's only face to face. So people come who have suicidal thoughts of all different levels. So I started training with them in the beginning of the year and it's like a seven week training thing and I turned up being like, you're welcome. And the caliber of people were absolutely, absolutely amazing. Like therapists and lawyers and stuff. And I was like, oh. And obviously the training was very robust. Loads of role plays which I find quite excruciating.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I would be on your team there.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Were you having to be the like, were you receiving the role playing or you have to do the role playing yourself?

[Podcast Guest]

No, they had like proper people pretending to be the suicidal people and then like other people would critique you. And I was like the first one I had you know, like, heart in my throat, like, almost panicked. I was like, I don't know how human in any way. And then, like, loads of people didn't get through as well. So then it became like, almost like an X Factor thing. I was waiting for the call. And anyway, so I've been doing that. You have to commit to. Once fortnight, I go into this office and there's all other volunteers and then you speak to people. And it's absolutely amazing. The people I speak to only speak to me, like, once a fortnight, so build a relationship with them. But, I mean, you will know all about this. It's kind of fascinating, as I have done to you. People just come in and tell you about their lives and why they're feeling the way they're feeling. But it's been very rewarding, I think. And really hard people have really tough lives. It's breathtaking sometimes. And we're there to support, not to solve. So we don't give advice in any way. But it's amazing, like, how many people don't really have anyone that's listening to them in life. And listening has become a very rare thing because of the lives we live. We're all so distracted. It's totally socially acceptable for one of us to start picking up our phone and, like, typing out while half talking and, you know, all that kind of stuff. And it's actually taken a huge amount away from community and people feeling, like, heard in any way. I found it very valuable so far and also amazed by what people share and how sad they are. It's really sad.

[Interviewer]

Didn't actually, again, there's lots of things we haven't properly finished. Like, you're a fair story. We didn't really, like.

[Podcast Guest]

You didn't feel great about that story.

[Interviewer]

You don't feel great because how it reflects on you.

[Podcast Guest]

I think so, yeah.

[Interviewer]

No, but I don't. Look, I mean, as you said at the start, the onus is on the. The person having the affair from someone else. And they. And it sounds like he did lie to you.

[Podcast Guest]

He did.

[Interviewer]

Was the end dramatic? Did she find out?

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

How did she find out?

[Podcast Guest]

How did she find out? It got to a point where the police were wrong. I can't remember.

[Interviewer]

Oh, hello.

[Podcast Guest]

I don't know how. Not by me, but I don't remember

[Interviewer]

how Popo got involved. The Rozas. What do you like to call the police? What's your favorite police? Billy's petting.

[Podcast Guest]

We do Save Ho Po. Yeah. That was very bad for my, like, whole nervous System. I felt very discombobulated by it all. It was horrible. And I did think it felt easier to think I was like in love with that situation because it felt like not attainable. So I think sometimes that can make the. What would it be? Dopamine. Like endorphins, whatever. I can keep that going, can't it?

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Podcast Guest]

And like, as I previously said, somebody whose books in to go to the British Library to read about blessed between people. Harry Beds. It's not probably that great, but it seems like in literature and everything, sometimes those ideas of. Can't quite make it, like Romeo and Juliet type things, all these sort of imbalances make it almost more romantic. I'm not saying it was like Romeo and Juliet, but you know what I mean? If I'd have just met him and I, you know, we were both in the same place, probably wouldn't have felt those things that I thought I felt. Thank you universe for like tapping me out of it. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So how. So how did it end?

[Podcast Guest]

He sent me photos of his head bleeding. She'd apparently attacked with the iron or something. Yeah, Yeah, that did. And then the police. The police were called, but then they went on holiday and I think he bought her some stuff. I don't know, she. He seemed to be able to pacify the situation. But then I think on reflection, he was a compulsive liar.

[Interviewer]

So you got. You got a photo, you got a. You got a message with a bleeding head.

[Podcast Guest]

See, I mean that could have been a fucking lie, you know, and the

[Interviewer]

bleeding head said anything with it said like, I can't be with you because my head's bleeding.

[Podcast Guest]

So she's found out. At that point I was kind of like, why is she so bad? I thought you broke off ages ago.

[Interviewer]

Of course, yeah.

[Podcast Guest]

But I mean, it's interesting now, I think being in those sort of chaotic relations, relationships, because do you think like your nervous system in such disarray you can't see straight?

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Podcast Guest]

So instead of just being like, well, let's start from the beginning because you said that she knew and you know, you're like, let's react to this. What's currently happening. What the fuck that.

[Interviewer]

You're like, you know, a bleeding head in your messages.

[Podcast Guest]

And I remember going to the pub with my sister and drinking. We drank like four bottles of wine. And I think I drank like the massive percentage of that.

[Interviewer]

Four bottles of wine. That's good going.

[Podcast Guest]

I know. And the lies were so creative and so backed up. It made. It does make you question yourself. Again, I feel like it's almost fascinating now, retrospect. It's like a fascinating essay into how. How people can behave. But at the time it was very, very distressing and felt very. It was very turbulent. That's the closest. Like when people talk about being in abusive relationships, that's the closest example I can have of something that makes you feel a bit wow.

[Interviewer]

So would you do it again?

[Podcast Guest]

Like have an affair with a married person? Yeah, I would like to say no. But. I would like to say no to that. Yeah, I would like to.

[Interviewer]

I would like to say no.

[Podcast Guest]

I would. I would hope that I wouldn't. I mean, I certainly wouldn't seek it out in any way. I think I'm just a lot calmer now.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. How do you meet potential lovers these days?

[Podcast Guest]

I. I don't really.

[Interviewer]

What happened to this textbook kisser the other day?

[Podcast Guest]

That was somebody I do, I do know from work. I don't know. I don't meet anybody like that.

[Interviewer]

Does that mean you just don't try?

[Podcast Guest]

I don't date, no.

[Interviewer]

All right.

[Podcast Guest]

At the moment I don't because my last boyfriend, we broke up like two years ago. I met on an app and it seemed pretty damn perfect and it kind of was. But then he told me that he liked to also have sex with men, but that was really into our relationship. And that I can safely say it kind of fucked me up. Made me question my own abilities to read that room and my own judgment and stuff like that.

[Interviewer]

Oh, so he was always having sex with men or he wanted to have sex. He was not.

[Podcast Guest]

He had previously. He gave me a bizarre level of detail. But he didn't want a romantic relationship with the man. I don't know. I tried for a couple of months, but.

[Interviewer]

So after he said that.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Okay. But then suddenly you just. You see everything through a different lens.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. I felt like he might just be gay and I just wondered. Well, I strongly thought that perhaps I was just like a pawn in this sort of I need to present girlfriend. But actually that was his instinct.

[Interviewer]

Again, that's been happening for.

[Podcast Guest]

I know.

[Interviewer]

And it's just unfortunate to be the person on the other. Other end.

[Podcast Guest]

It was. It was kind of mind blowing and it was also. Yeah, that was a real sucker punch and it hurt a lot. And again, like I said, I think there was a lot of self blame and sort of beat myself up quite a lot on that one. So, yeah, that was my last relationship.

[Interviewer]

There be some funny ones have there in your life.

[Podcast Guest]

Oh, gosh, I. Did.

[Interviewer]

You Have a good wedding, Dave. Is that fun?

[Occasional Commentator]

No.

[Podcast Guest]

It's a weird thing to do to get married, to have a wedding.

[Interviewer]

Is it?

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. Cuz it's like you do all this weird shit. Like people watch you write in a book and cut a cake and stuff. It's a. It's just a weird. It's like accepted that all these people almost like queue up and photograph you doing things that I normally wouldn't care less about. It's just a very.

[Interviewer]

What was the one of those on your wedding day which you really did bother you?

[Podcast Guest]

The first dance.

[Interviewer]

Oh God.

[Podcast Guest]

And all the weird speech. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I mean you say weird speeches.

[Podcast Guest]

Well, the speeches. I mean it's a weird thing we've got ourselves into, isn't it? With the whole like this is what a wedding is.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, for sure you could say about society.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Weird thing we've got ourselves into.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

I mean. Yeah. So the dance was especially difficult. What was the song?

[Podcast Guest]

The Smiths.

[Interviewer]

Which song?

[Podcast Guest]

Please, please, please.

[Interviewer]

Oh yeah. Well, let me get what I want.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Essentially first dance song choice.

[Podcast Guest]

Yes. It's not hugely romantic.

[Interviewer]

Long after something he's not got though.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. But anyway, well, weirdly like my ex husband is Morrissey's cousin. He wasn't at the wedding.

[Interviewer]

There you go. Plot twist.

[Podcast Guest]

We had a fondness for the Smiths as a couple and it felt nice. It was a nice song. But it was short.

[Interviewer]

It's really short. It's like what, minute 40 or something?

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. You don't want to be up there for ages.

[Interviewer]

It's a short song with actually quite a long time.

[Podcast Guest]

It's like let's shut this shit down quickly.

[Interviewer]

Let's get out of here. Blinking in this bit, guys.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. I just found. I found the whole thing. Quite an out of body experience. It is a very strange thing.

[Interviewer]

You still have your wedding dress, being a bride.

[Podcast Guest]

No, I sold it actually. Really? I put it on Vinted. For years it's been on there and it sold the day my dad died.

[Interviewer]

No.

[Podcast Guest]

And the person that bought it just bought it outright. Didn't ask any questions. I've been like dicked about for years with people being like, can you photograph this closer? Can you measure this? And blah, blah. And they just bought it. Yeah. Then I packaged.

[Interviewer]

Curious, isn't it?

[Podcast Guest]

It was very.

[Interviewer]

Did you know anything about them?

[Podcast Guest]

No.

[Interviewer]

Can I ask, you know, really basic B question here but like how much did you sell it for? How much did you pay for it?

[Podcast Guest]

I bought it for like about 1400 and it was.

[Interviewer]

But then Quite reasonable. That's reason for people spending stuff on the wedding drift.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. And then sold it for something like 190.

[Interviewer]

Oh yeah. What do you do with 190 pounds? I feel like some amounts of money are more meaningful than others.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah, that's true. Well, it. One of my friends at my wedding, he threw a whole bloody glass of red wine over it so it cost me a hundred pounds. And then get it dry cleaned. And I don't know why that stuck in my head so much because I was like, I'm 100 quid down even though. Even though it cost me 1400 pounds. I know, it's like dicking about on the dance floor. Yeah, I guess maybe it was appalling.

[Interviewer]

Oh no.

[Occasional Commentator]

Oh, no.

[Podcast Guest]

He broke into the kitchen and tried to snog a waitress and his wife burst into tears and she was found like in the library crying. Sounds like a Pluto. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Where'd you get married? Which library are you talking about?

[Podcast Guest]

It's like Manor House, but they had like a Blighty Ball thing. He went nuts.

[Interviewer]

You think maybe he felt like he had to do it to save you?

[Podcast Guest]

Well, like, look at this over here.

[Interviewer]

Because otherwise they wouldn't be talking about how like sad you looked at the prospect of being married to someone.

[Podcast Guest]

That first dance, she didn't look right, quick.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, James, get in there. Snog someone in the library.

[Podcast Guest]

His name is James. Is it?

[Occasional Commentator]

Yeah.

[Podcast Guest]

That's amazing.

[Interviewer]

We had to get one at some point.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah, exactly. You failed with Mark, but you got there in the end with James.

[Interviewer]

I knew I'd get there with James. He would come good and then like

[Podcast Guest]

something and then they like some poor waitress like made a complaint about him and then he stole a bottle of gin and then apparently smashed it against a wall. I mean, yeah, he like lost his mind. And then my dad like went for like a Pride and prejudice type Mr. Bennett walk in the morning of like, I've married off my second daughter type thing and like wanted to get some fresh air. And he saw James and his wife l leaving at 7am trying to sneak off before the crowds came down for breakfast.

[Occasional Commentator]

Of course.

[Podcast Guest]

Apparently she had a face like thunder.

[Interviewer]

I couldn't understand why. Yeah, I mean, it begs the question, did you. Was it a complete surprise, his behavior? Are you starting to blame for. For inviting him? We have levels.

[Podcast Guest]

I probably saw it from a point of view as I would have loved to been a fellow guest and see James B or James about. About it. But I actually probably did make an error inviting him and then at some

[Interviewer]

point, you realized it was your own wedding.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. And that wasn't funny.

[Interviewer]

I'm thinking about arcs here because I really want to make sure I get it. I've got good conclusions to some stuff here before we part ways.

[Podcast Guest]

Okay.

[Interviewer]

I suppose what we need to kind of work out is your meaning.

[Podcast Guest]

My meaning of my life.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. You know, because we said you're a meaning's crossroads. We talked about volunteering, and then I don't know if there's anything we're left in terms of any other great options available to you or, like, what you think you might want to take with your time left here on Earth.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. Well, what I've noticed in this since dad died and since getting this lump of money.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Podcast Guest]

Not Dad's money. I haven't got any Dad's money.

[Interviewer]

Put it in the black bin bags. Yeah, that would be good. It was money. It was money. Amazing. That would be. That would be incredible. So redundancy money. Yeah.

[Podcast Guest]

So, yeah, it landed on this day. And then I looked at the amount, and then I had, like, a moment where I realized, oh, my gosh, this is the most money I've ever had, ever given to me in a lump sum. Like, and that was my first thought. The cliche. It doesn't make you happy. Because it felt like it could have been half that amount or twice that amount, and the flatline feeling would have been the same feeling of just so. Anyway, that's a long winded way of saying I've realized that obviously that doesn't make you happy. It's great to have no money worries, but having lots of it certainly doesn't equal happiness. And with dad dying and changing my career and stuff, I also hope to keep on trying to be present and grateful and enjoy life. Like, I came here today just because I had written something in the morning, like, doing bits of freelance work. And I just thought, oh, it's a really nice sunny day, and I might just go out and drink a Diet Coke and read my book for the second half. And then weirdly started. This girl was sitting on this bench, and then a bee or something went on her. So she went like nuts. And I was just walking and then she threw her bag everywhere and stuff. And I was like, oh, you okay? And then we started chatting for a bit. And then she almost, like, hated the bench because it had been the place of a bee. And then I sat down and started looking at this plaque and thought, oh, I'll look up this poor boy. And weirdly, for some Reason, because he's young. I thought, I wonder if he's killed himself because of all this work I'm doing at the moment. And then you came along. I don't quite know what I'm trying to say. I guess a bee can change anybody's

[Interviewer]

day, I think, is what you're saying.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. I think probably if, like, maybe if you'd have spoken to me a year and a half ago, I can honestly say if you'd have asked me this, I'd have said no.

[Interviewer]

Oh, really?

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

As in to talk. You wouldn't have even talked.

[Podcast Guest]

I think he'd have said, I'm doing a podcast. My mind would have just gone, oh, that sounds scary and embarrassing. And what are the consequences? Consequences of this.

[Interviewer]

That's progress then, I suppose.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah, exactly.

[Interviewer]

Or something.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. So I guess just being. Yeah. More open to things. My life looks very different now than it did a couple of years ago.

[Interviewer]

I suppose it's kind of, in a weird way, we would be at a meaning's crossroads forever. I think it's actually quite a good space to be. To be constantly thinking, actually, what is going to bring meaning to my life? What can I do with my days that brings happiness. It's a great position to be in.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You have the time to do that. It's okay never to know, I suppose, even which way.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Just float about.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. And I've also tried to just get a grasp on how happiness is just such an inside job. Going back to the original start of the conversation with the mum and dad situation, what he said to the doctors versus what I saw. Sometimes we like to present as these are all the reasons why I'm happy. I've got this lovely house and I've got this family and I've got this blah, blah. But really I saw I had an insight into something different. Although that was really hard and it's really like, at some points quite messed with my idea of what I thought was real. It's also given me, like, don't have like one narrative and then actually in reality it'd be different.

[Interviewer]

I think in a sense, I really like the idea that when you say life is not a movie, what you can also say is it's way more exciting. Yeah. No movie would have all these, like many concurrent threads of possibilities because it'll be a plot that is not possible to follow.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And actually in a way that line could mean a different thing.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Big life, big times. There's a last question I asked, but before that, I'll do one question. Because I've been reading a book about versions of what this person thinks an afterlife could look like. And as I started reading I should ask a bench person what a rich you are.

[Podcast Guest]

One,

[Interviewer]

if there were to be an afterlife, what would you like to look like?

[Podcast Guest]

Oh, gosh.

[Interviewer]

Nice easy question,

[Podcast Guest]

I guess. More of a feeling, I suppose. I don't think it'll be like a life like this. So I'm imagining it as your soul staying somewhere. And I would like it to be content, grateful, calming representation with an insight into people that you love. Feeling the same. Yeah, I suppose when I think about dad, like I, I, I feel like, you know, our energy, you know, like when you walk into a room and there's been a row there, but the people that aren't rowing aren't there anymore, but you see, still feel like the energy is off. I feel like it would be nice to have somewhere where like your soul is kept with the bright energy. I think it seems baffling that people can just die and then that's that. So I do sort of hope that in us and like in the house and stuff. I feel like sometimes some sort of spark of Pym there, like a warmth. Is that a very complicated answer? Sorry.

[Interviewer]

It's a pretty good answer.

[Podcast Guest]

Oh, okay.

[Interviewer]

I like that. I've been to a lot of parks, for instance, doing this. So many parks. And some have really peculiar energy.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Don't. You're like, why? And there's no real explaining it. Right. It's just like, it's like, well, we can't know for sure. And you just think maybe that is connected to the energy of the souls that have been there in the past.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Over the last however many thousands of years.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You know, I like the idea that they all contribute to the atmosphere somehow still.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Of where we are.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So your dad literally, you know, co created you. So, you know, some of his energy is in you, but also some of his energy is just anyone who he's ever met and hopefully that was something good. And they pass, you know, it's just like energy bouncing. So if you think of how much energy, you know, in 77 years of living your dad's put about the place, that's a lot of just energy babies everywhere really, isn't it?

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

God knows what they all do, but they're all there.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah. I totally agree. I think we all instinctively as humans have this ability to pick up on things that we can't really articulate.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Occasional Commentator]

Okay.

[Interviewer]

Well, if we've reached the Last question. Do you have anything you need to say before the last question? Anything you haven't said?

[Podcast Guest]

One of my fears is that I might sound like a terrible person.

[Interviewer]

I think people. I think. But I don't believe in that as a concept. And I think that I think the best human beings also, also don't like, don't listen to someone go, oh, terrible person. Look, honestly, everything is a mirror, right. So if someone thinks you're a terrible person, it means that something you have said has reflected on their particular life and their situation that's triggered them into believing you're a terrible person.

[Podcast Guest]

I like that. That's good.

[Interviewer]

But really like some of those truths are like a little bit complex.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

In terms of the general societal norms.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And so maybe that makes you feel a bit wary, but you shouldn't do. A lot of what you may think people may be critical of are things that actually are very human. Yeah, I think.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You know, you've been really honest and that's been great.

[Podcast Guest]

Oh, good.

[Interviewer]

It's honesty which makes the difference.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Okay, so you ready for this last question?

[Podcast Guest]

I think so, yes.

[Interviewer]

Oh, I just realized something.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah?

[Interviewer]

I never asked you the first question. Oh, that's quite funny. Yeah. Should I. I feel like I've. Just for the, just for the completed. I'm gonna do this.

[Podcast Guest]

Okay.

[Interviewer]

What is your favorite day of the

[Podcast Guest]

week at the moment? Like every day is my favorite day.

[Interviewer]

Fine. Okay, that's good. So now we know. We now have a kind of sliding doors moment of what that would have been initially my very first question to you. But it wasn't.

[Podcast Guest]

Okay, sure.

[Interviewer]

And then what would have happened from that? Probably the same conversation.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Anyway, now the last question which is what are you going to do next?

[Podcast Guest]

Well, today, going to my mate tonight and that's how her new flat. And then I might in a little bit more long term thing as I am seeing my mum this weekend, she has told me that she's going to save watching Casualty for when I come. So she's still on the whole TV watching thing with the rose? Yeah, saving Casualty.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Podcast Guest]

We like to watch it together but we haven't done that for a long time.

[Interviewer]

So how was she watching casually when you're dead though?

[Podcast Guest]

No, but weirdly, even though my dad was in hospital and it was like absolute hell, she still watched Casualty while he was like ill.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You're gonna see her.

[Podcast Guest]

I'm see her on Someday and I might actually really strongly consider what you said about asking her about how she was towards the end. Or maybe about the bin bags. Don't know. And I. Yeah. And I think having seen dad die so incredibly quickly, maybe I should start asking her some things about her life. You can do it as well.

[Interviewer]

There you go.

[Podcast Guest]

You've inspired me. But that's really good. I'm really grateful for that.

[Occasional Commentator]

Okay.

[Podcast Guest]

Even to, like, listen to her more and not just assume that she's this caricature. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Well, good luck with Mother.

[Podcast Guest]

Thank you.

[Interviewer]

And the bin base.

[Podcast Guest]

Thank you.

[Interviewer]

And, you know, if you ever find out that the bit. Please let me know.

[Podcast Guest]

I'll search around.

[Interviewer]

Maybe it was just bills.

[Podcast Guest]

Maybe. Maybe. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Let's hope that's what it was. Well, thank you very much.

[Podcast Guest]

Thank you.

[Occasional Commentator]

What he keeps I'll never know Inside the room where no one goes Pornographic magazines or love letters. What she saw behind her eyes as he slipped away that night Rose A colored vision battling the dark. There's a secret emblem A fifth chamber of the heart maybe it's the mystery that makes us are. Don't know why I like the game the ones you never seem to stay Textbook kisses, wedding rings they never let the far Romance is the balance between fear and purity. Somewhere there's a of this chamber of the heart maybe it's the mystery that makes us who we are. Sam.