Strict Scrutiny Presents: Runaway Country – “Justice Has Left the Building”
Release Date: December 29, 2025
Podcast: Strict Scrutiny (hosted by Leah Litman, Kate Shaw, and Melissa Murray)
Special Episode: Full airing of Runaway Country with Alex Wagner
Episode Overview
This episode departs from Strict Scrutiny’s typical Supreme Court focus to present a powerful narrative and investigation from Runaway Country, hosted by Alex Wagner. The focus is the collapse of due process and rule of law in America’s immigration courts under the Trump administration, featuring an in-depth interview with Judge Anam Raman Pettit—a recently fired immigration judge—and legal analysis from former federal prosecutor Andrew Weissmann.
The episode delivers first-person insight into how the Trump administration’s strategies are gutting immigration courts: firing experienced judges, overwhelming the system, and replacing experts with ideologically aligned or less qualified individuals, all while terrorizing immigrants and their families. Wagner and her guests connect these on-the-ground legal erosions to broader concerns about the health of American democracy.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Setting the Stage: Rule of Law Under Assault
- [03:00] Alex Wagner opens by contextualizing the episode:
- The Trump administration’s use and abuse of federal government and DOJ powers,
- ICE agents detaining immigrants at courthouses,
- Masked men disrupting legal proceedings,
- The public’s growing numbness to constitutional norms being rapidly eroded.
“All of a sudden it feels like we are in an inverted America where justice has basically left the building.”
— Alex Wagner [04:33]
- Wagner emphasizes the blurring boundary between law enforcement and political interests, highlighting the administration’s “assault” on independent justice.
2. Immigration Courts in Crisis: Firsthand from Judge Pettit
A. The New Reality in Courtrooms
- [08:22] Judge Anam Raman Pettit describes traumatizing scenes:
- ICE agents detaining people inside or just outside courtrooms,
- Deep distress for defendants, families, interpreters, lawyers, and the judges themselves.
“There’s the hat which is the neutral arbiter who just needs to stay unbiased … But you can’t separate that from being a human. And as a human, it’s devastating… There was never a risk of detention when you went to court ... It’s this new era where enforcement is front and center and what used to be a protected space for justice just isn’t that anymore.”
— Judge Pettit [09:45]
- [11:06] Describes the chilling effect:
- Fear deters attendance at hearings. Family separation is ever-present in people’s minds.
- Judges often have minor children “waived” for appearances to avoid trauma.
B. The ICE Presence & Lack of Security
- [12:13] Flood of new ICE agents:
- Masked men in and around courtrooms,
- Judges feel unsafe—lack of bailiffs, limited court staff, escalating risk in the halls.
“You feel quite unprotected in those moments, especially when you hear the commotion in the hallways... Testifying about traumatizing parts of their lives and they can hear someone getting detained.”
— Judge Pettit [12:13]
C. The Toll of a Broken System
- [14:01] Recounts one of the first “surprise” detentions in her courtroom—policy changed overnight.
- “That person was detained... It’s also just inefficient for a system that has a crushing backlog.”
D. Firing of Judges and Manufactured Crisis
- [15:40] Over 80 judges fired, replaced by military lawyers. At time of recording: fewer than 600 judges for 3.8 million cases (~1 judge per 42,000 cases in some places).
- Judge Pettit received “glowing feedback” but no reason for her firing.
- Wagner observes that removing qualified judges seems designed to engineer system failure—enabling the administration to impose new, harsher rules.
“I think the cynic in me believes this is all being done very purposefully and that they’re trying to break the system so that they’re able to implement whatever reforms they see fit, which will be at the expense of due process.”
— Judge Pettit [17:48]
E. Legal Whiplash and Systemic Pressure
- Judges bound by ever-changing DOJ directives—guidance can shift “overnight” and undo decades of case law (especially in asylum cases).
- [19:04] Though never explicitly told how to rule, a constant “unspoken pressure” remains to align with DOJ priorities; personal toll is immense.
F. On Losing Her Position
- [20:57] Emotional conflict: sadness and anger, but also relief after months of anxiety.
- “At least I knew, okay, I’m fired. I need to focus on the next chapter…”
G. Future of Due Process
- Due process exists “on paper” but is eroding. Backlog and case-completion quotas undermine justice.
- Lowered qualifications for incoming judges are alarming; trust in system “greatly eroded.”
“It used to be such a stable position and now it’s just anchored in instability. I don’t know if we’re ever going to get trust back in that federal sector employment. And then I don’t know if we’re ever going to get trust back in justice and the rule of law.”
— Judge Pettit [23:15]
3. Legal System Under Siege: Andrew Weissmann’s Analysis
A. Administrative Sabotage and the “Veneer of Due Process”
- [28:10] Wagner and Weissmann discuss DOJ purges and the “stacking” of courts with loyalists.
- Firing judges isn’t about increasing efficiency; it’s to ensure “people who are just going to do your bidding,” undermining due process by replacing career professionals with ideologically aligned or unqualified officials.
“Putting Emile Beauvais on the 3rd Circuit, in my view, is a way of hollowing out the courts...”
— Andrew Weissmann [29:23]
- Administration’s multi-pronged effort:
- Overwhelm courts (impossible caseloads),
- Replace impartial adjudicators with loyalists or less trained military lawyers,
- Discourage participation (fearful immigrants and families).
B. Impact on Immigrants and the System
- System encourages missed court dates, making people more vulnerable to ICE raids elsewhere.
“The system clearly is stacked against you, or you are gonna end up getting fucked in that system in ways you cannot even imagine.”
— Alex Wagner [33:37]
- Pushback exists among some local judges and U.S. attorneys, but administration “banks on Americans not caring” about due process for marginalized groups.
C. Enduring American Values – and Erosion
- Weissmann tells stories from Georgia state courts and military justice, emphasizing that “principled people” still exist—but worries about their dwindling influence.
- Cites how “dehumanization” makes cruelty and lawlessness possible.
D. Trump’s Brazen Self-Enrichment
- [40:36] Discussion of Trump demanding $230 million from the DOJ for investigating him, as if he could “pay himself.” Wagner and Weissmann mock the absurdity and highlight the deep ethical breach.
“Why doesn't he just go, rob Fort Knox? That was my reaction... I'm the president. It’s all mine. Right? And I get to decide.”
— Andrew Weissmann [40:58]
- They note, this is tax payer money, with the DOJ now run by Trump loyalists who might sign off on self-dealing.
E. The Chilling Effect Within DOJ
- Career DOJ employees demoralized but standing firm; mass resignations and recusals to avoid participating in corrupt prosecutions (e.g., Comey, Tish James cases).
- Administration replaces them with outsiders willing to execute political “hit list” assignments.
4. Wider Implications: Democracy Endangered
A. Focus on the Victims
- The real damage is to the people: immigrants, families, and all Americans losing faith in justice.
- Individual stories turn abstract dysfunction into concrete harm.
“You’re creating a class of victims … you need an example of one to make people understand the systemic...”
— Andrew Weissmann [47:01]
B. Democracy’s Guardrails Disappearing
- [66:10] Wagner asks Weissmann: “What’s your level of confidence about rule of law?”
- Weissmann expresses acute concern for future free and fair elections, potential law enforcement abuses, military involvement in voting, and further weaponization of the DOJ.
“Not good... I am particularly worried about whether we will ever have a free and fair election again…”
— Andrew Weissmann [66:10]
C. The Call to Engagement
- Staying informed, engaged, and vocal is crucial—especially as these attacks happen at all levels of government, in every part of the country.
- Even in “blue states,” abuses of the judicial system are possible and ongoing.
“I don’t think people understand. Even if you’re in a blue state, speaking up is really, really important.”
— Alex Wagner [69:39]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- On Fear in Court:
“I could go to court today, and I could never come home and see my child.”
— Judge Pettit [11:06] - On ICE in the Courthouse:
“There isn’t a high level of security … you feel quite unprotected in those moments.”
— Judge Pettit [12:13] - On Administrative Sabotage:
“They're trying to break the system so that they're able to implement whatever reforms they see fit, which will be at the expense of due process.”
— Judge Pettit [17:48] - On DOJ Morale:
“For the career people who are still there, it is the most demoralizing thing ever.”
— Andrew Weissmann [45:40] - On Erosion of Democracy:
“We just had 7 million people approximately, marching against having a king. And then you have somebody acting exactly like a king.”
— Andrew Weissmann [43:47]
Key Segment Timestamps
- [04:33] Wagner introduces “Runaway Country” and frames the crisis in justice and due process.
- [08:22]–[24:11] Full interview with Judge Anam Pettit: on trauma in immigration courts, ICE presence, judges being fired, the chilling impact on immigrants, administrator whims, declining due process.
- [28:10]–[69:57] Interview and commentary with Andrew Weissmann: analyzing the broader impact, DOJ institutional breakdown, personal impact of Trump attacks, systemic risks to democracy and law.
- [66:10] Weissmann on the near future: “Not good. Let me just tell you the things I’m worried about […].”
Tone and Language
The episode blends sobering, urgent, and at times irreverent commentary (true to both Strict Scrutiny and Runaway Country’s style). Conversation is frank, passionate, and brings legal abstraction to lived experience.
Summary Takeaway
This episode provides a sobering, humanizing, and deeply urgent portrait of how the legal and democratic norms underpinning the U.S. immigration system—and potentially the nation’s justice system as a whole—are being dismantled. Judge Pettit’s first-person account and Weissmann’s broader legal analysis reveal both the crushing day-to-day trauma produced in courtrooms and the engineered institutional decay at the highest levels, making clear the stakes for everyone who believes in the rule of law.
Highly recommended for anyone seeking a firsthand view into the consequences of politicized justice and the steady corrosion of American legal institutions.