Our Favorite Things, 2024

Summary

Strict Scrutiny Podcast Summary
Episode: "Our Favorite Things, 2024"
Release Date: December 23, 2024

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Introduction

In the festive episode titled "Our Favorite Things, 2024," hosted by constitutional law professors Leah Litman, Kate Shaw, and Melissa Murray, Strict Scrutiny takes a delightful detour from its usual Supreme Court analysis to share personal favorites, gift ideas, and engaging discussions. This episode combines legal insights with personal anecdotes, offering listeners both informative and entertaining content.

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Favorite Things: Appreciating the Justices
Timestamp: 01:53 – 28:15

The hosts kick off the episode by introducing a new tradition: sharing their favorite things about each Supreme Court Justice. This segment offers a unique and personal perspective on the personalities and contributions of the justices.

1. Chief Justice John Roberts

   • Kate Shaw (02:12): Appreciates Roberts for revealing his true colors in landmark cases like Trump vs. United States and Loper Bright, showcasing his non-institutionalist stance.
   • Leah Litman (02:19): Commends Roberts for his political savviness and ability to regain control of the court with strategic maneuvers.
   • Melissa Murray (03:20): Likes Roberts' commitment to maintaining a presidential demeanor, likening him to a "George Clooney circa 1995."

2. Justice Clarence Thomas

   • Kate Shaw (04:12): Notes a shift in Thomas's demeanor, suggesting his ego may prevent a swift replacement, maintaining balance on the court.
   • Melissa Murray (04:40): Appreciates Thomas's unapologetic stance on personal perks and his ability to hint at needs without direct requests.
   • Leah Litman (05:28): Highlights Thomas's passive-aggressive negotiation tactics regarding court salaries and benefits.

3. Justice Samuel Alito

   • Leah Litman (05:30): Values Alito as the quintessential "villain," providing a necessary counterbalance on the court.
   • Kate Shaw (05:51): Grateful for Alito's gesture of gifting Leah a book, symbolizing collegiality despite ideological differences.
   • Melissa Murray (05:55): Admiration for Alito's physical resilience and supportiveness towards his wife.

4. Justice Sonia Sotomayor

   • Leah Litman (06:19): Praises Sotomayor’s dedication to meticulous case analysis and her empathetic approach to litigants.
   • Kate Shaw (07:07): Reveres Sotomayor’s impactful dissents, particularly in the immunity decision.
   • Melissa Murray (07:27): Appreciates Sotomayor’s ability to find good in her colleagues and maintain congenial relationships, even with opposing justices.

5. Justice Elena Kagan

   • Melissa Murray (08:04): Enjoys Kagan's cheeky demeanor and her ability to blend humor with serious legal discourse.
   • Leah Litman (08:10): Finds Kagan's frustration with less competent judges relatable and inspiring.
   • Kate Shaw (08:55): Loves Kagan's dynamic presence during oral arguments, balancing support for strong advocates with criticism of weak ones.

6. Justice Neil Gorsuch

   • Melissa Murray (10:06): Values Gorsuch for bringing geographic diversity to the court.
   • Leah Litman (10:16): Enjoys Gorsuch’s penchant for snarking, making criticism engaging and fun.
   • Kate Shaw (10:40): Appreciates Gorsuch’s ability to inspire critical reviews through his writings, specifically his book "Please."

7. Justice Brett Kavanaugh

   • Kate Shaw (11:32): Observes Kavanaugh’s eagerness to be liked during oral arguments, hinting at potential strategic benefits.
   • Leah Litman (12:16): Views Kavanaugh as an inspirational figure for achieving high office despite perceived mediocrity.
   • Melissa Murray (12:53): Commends Kavanaugh’s athleticism and dedication to running, highlighting his commitment to personal fitness.

8. Justice Amy Coney Barrett

   • Melissa Murray (13:30): Admires Barrett’s "school marm" energy and her balanced approach to handling both liberal and conservative colleagues.
   • Kate Shaw (14:13): Notes improvements in Barrett’s hair as a humorous personal preference.
   • Leah Litman (14:19): Appreciates Barrett’s consistent demeanor and her commitment to an equal-opportunity approach in her judgments.

9. Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson

   • Kate Shaw (14:48): Celebrates Jackson’s groundbreaking performance on Broadway and her ability to balance energy and righteous indignation in oral arguments.
   • Leah Litman (15:10): Loves Jackson’s ability to maintain positivity while confronting the court’s challenges.
   • Melissa Murray (15:49): Appreciates Jackson’s supportive personal life, particularly her relationship with her husband, exemplifying self-worth and mutual respect.

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Gift-Giving Ideas
Timestamp: 20:32 – 40:08

Expanding on the holiday spirit, the hosts share thoughtful gift recommendations categorized into "something you want," "something you need," "something to wear," and "something to read."

1. Something You Want

   • Leah Litman (20:32): Desires an album of acoustic surprise songs from Taylor Swift's ERAS tour and additional portraits of her dog.
   • Melissa Murray (21:11): Wishes for an Elena Kagan-inspired gold paperclip necklace, a classic retro manual typewriter, high-quality nonstick pans, and alternatives to Amazon Prime services.
   • Kate Shaw (24:21): Hopes for designer jewelry, sustainable electric scooters for family use, and WNBA tickets to support women’s sports.

2. Something You Need

   • Leah Litman (20:32): Expresses a need for emotional support items like a plush pickle and ensuring the Wisconsin Supreme Court race progresses favorably.
   • Melissa Murray (22:02): Seeks an independent media subscription, muslin comfort sheets, weighted blankets for stress relief, and high-quality hand refreshers.
   • Kate Shaw (23:17): Emphasizes the importance of supporting independent media outlets and maintaining meaningful group chats for healthy digital interactions.

3. Something to Wear

   • Leah Litman (33:09): Obsessed with Skims' soft lounge wear and Bamboo Crew necks, along with workwear from The RealReal.
   • Melissa Murray (35:15): Recommends Honey Love shapewear for comfort and style, Aritzia’s super puff belt bags, and Danessa Myrick’s skin-blurring balm powder.
   • Kate Shaw (35:03): Desires a functional water backpack for running and family pajamas from Hannah Anderson for coordinated family attire.

4. Something to Read

   • Leah Litman (40:04): Recommends a diverse selection of books covering legal, historical, and fictional narratives, including titles like "Vigilante Nation" by John Michaels and "Bright Young Women" by Jessica Knoll.
   • Kate Shaw (42:49): Shares her favorites such as Miranda July’s "All Fours," Percival Everett’s "James," and Octavia Butler’s "The Parable of the Sower," along with nonfiction works like Rebecca Nagle’s "By the Fire We Carry" and Dylan Penningroth’s "Before the Movement."
   • Melissa Murray (46:33): Highlights recent reads including Jonathan Eig’s "A Life," Colm Tóibín’s "Long Island," and Rob Sears’s humorous take on Donald Trump’s tweets in "Beautiful Poetry of Donald Trump."

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Podcast and Media Recommendations
Timestamp: 40:01 – 50:55

Beyond books, the hosts suggest engaging podcasts and media series that resonate with their themes of legal scrutiny and societal issues.

• Ear Witness

  • Kate Shaw (50:55): Explains the podcast's investigation into the wrongful conviction of To Forest Johnson, exploring themes of justice and systemic flaws in the legal system.

• Less Radical

  • Kate Shaw (50:55): Discusses this podcast’s focus on Dr. Bernie Fisher’s revolutionary work in breast cancer treatment and his subsequent political persecution, echoing the podcast’s broader themes of scientific integrity and political interference.

• Mind’d Own with Lupita Nyong’o

  • Melissa Murray (52:02): Praises this storytelling podcast where Lupita Nyong’o narrates modern African diaspora stories, blending culture with personal narratives.

• Rebel Spirit with Akilah Hughes

  • Melissa Murray (52:02): Highlights this documentary series examining race, culture, and sports through Hughes’s efforts to change her hometown’s mascot, showcasing the podcast’s deep dive into social issues.

• Yacht Rock the Documentary

  • Melissa Murray (52:02): Enthusiastically recommends this Netflix documentary as a nostalgic and entertaining exploration of 1970s-80s music culture.

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Listener Tributes and Community Engagement
Timestamp: 54:26 – 68:15

The episode shifts focus to celebrate the listeners, featuring voice memos and personal stories that highlight the podcast's impact.

• Listener Voice Memos

  • Highlights include greetings from around the world, including Taiwan, Switzerland, Germany, Australia, and various US states.
  • Listeners share how the podcast assists them in understanding the Supreme Court and staying informed about legal developments.
  • Personal anecdotes range from using the podcast during runs and maternity leave to finding solace and community through the show’s discussions.

• Special Acknowledgments

  • Leah Litman (63:10): Thanks listeners for their support, especially those who helped her attend events like the ERAS tour.
  • Kate Shaw & Melissa Murray (54:26 – 67:48): Express gratitude towards each other and the podcast’s production team, emphasizing teamwork, mutual support, and the importance of the podcast community.

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Closing Remarks

As the episode wraps up, the hosts encourage listeners to share positive or significant court developments for future episodes and remind them of the upcoming programming break before returning in the new year. They extend heartfelt holiday wishes and emphasize the community’s strength and resilience.

Notable Quotes:

• Kate Shaw (02:12): "He showed his true colors last year and is really not an institutionalist."
• Melissa Murray (03:20): "Chief Justice is like the Tom Hanks character in that pirate movie when Sam Alito was like, 'I'm the captain now.'"
• Leah Litman (05:28): "He seems to be good at asking for things without asking for them... passive-aggressive. I like it."
• Kate Shaw (07:07): "Justice Sotomayor really models someone who gives attention to every case and every litigant in a way that is really admirable."
• Melissa Murray (14:58): "She reminds me of Eliza Wilder in 'Little House on the Prairie'—she's an equal opportunity destroyer."

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Conclusion

"Our Favorite Things, 2024" serves as a warm, engaging episode that humanizes the Supreme Court justices through personal reflections and shared favorites. Coupled with thoughtful gift ideas and community engagement, this episode exemplifies the podcast’s ability to blend legal discourse with relatable, heartwarming content. Whether you're a legal professional or a casual listener, this episode offers valuable insights and a sense of camaraderie among the hosts and their audience.

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Stay Connected

To keep up with more episodes and updates, subscribe to Strict Scrutiny on your preferred podcast platform or visit crooked.com/strict. Follow the hosts on social media to join the conversation and be part of the vibrant Strict Scrutiny community.

Transcript

[Melissa Murray]

Meet Claude, Anthropic's AI assistant. Ready to transform how your organization works. Empower every person in your organization with AI that thinks like a teammate, not a tool. Securely upload your company knowledge and watch as Claude helps every department from engineering to marketing produce their best work faster. Your data stays protected while your teams reach new heights. Discover Enterprise Grade [e-mail] Enterprise Mr. Chief justice, please support. It's an old joke, but when I argue, man argues against two beautiful ladies like this, they're going to have the last word. She spoke not elegantly, but with unmistakable clarity. She said, I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks. Hello and welcome back to Strict Scrutiny, your podcast about the Supreme Court and the legal culture that surrounds it. Where your hosts. I'm Melissa Murray.

[Leah Litman]

I'm Leah Litman.

[Kate Shaw]

And I'm Kate Shaw. Every year for the last few years we have done a favorite things episode and we wanted to keep up that tradition. So per usual we're going to offer some gift giving ideas, kind of guides of our own you can use if they're helpful. But we're also adding, and we've added a bit over the years and we're going to continue to add today some hopefully fun new traditions that if they work will add some levity, some warmth, maybe some joy to what has been a trying few months.

[Leah Litman]

So.

[Kate Shaw]

So we hope you enjoy the episode.

[Leah Litman]

So first up, we are going to start a new tradition and it's going to be a go around game and we are going to say our favorite things about each justice. So should we go in order of seniority?

[Melissa Murray]

Sure.

[Leah Litman]

Okay, let's start with the chiefy. Chief.

[Kate Shaw]

I love that he showed his true colors last year.

[Melissa Murray]

Wow, that's a good one, Kate. That he's really not an institutionalist.

[Kate Shaw]

I think it's hard for anyone with a straight face to claim that now. And I appreciate that the wool has fallen away from the eyes of all and by not only joining but actually writing the insanity that it was Trump versus United States and also Loper Bright. I think he showed us who he is and I think that's actually useful information.

[Leah Litman]

I like that. I was going to say I appreciate that he doesn't do weird shit to cover up his male pattern baldness. Respect. I also like this is kind of related to yours, Kate. If I'm going to be forced to say something not about appearances and looks like he is the savviest politician in the entire world because it was looking like he was losing control of the court, and he regained it and showed us that with a vengeance. And I just think people might have something to learn about the insane political instincts and long games and machinations of John Roberts.

[Melissa Murray]

So, yeah, he was like the Tom Hanks character in that pirate movie when Sam Alito was like, I'm the captain now. He's like, no, bitch, you're not actually. And yeah, I was actually gonna also say a hair thing, but I don't. I wasn't thinking about his male pattern baldness. I really like that he is committed to the George Clooney circa 1995 male forward Caesar, and I like that for him.

[Kate Shaw]

And I'm sorry, you're gonna have to explain that with that, but he really. Is that a haircut?

[Melissa Murray]

It's like a haircut. It's like. It's a very sort of forward haircut. Yeah, yeah, it's fine. I'm trying to say nice things.

[Leah Litman]

Yeah.

[Kate Shaw]

I feel like this is not the same without jvn, but we will press on. I don't know if we're gonna go hair on all of them.

[Melissa Murray]

No, no, no.

[Leah Litman]

Okay, Next up would be Justice Thomas. Who wants to go first on this one?

[Kate Shaw]

I think I have one.

[Leah Litman]

Okay.

[Kate Shaw]

I don't know if you guys feel this, but I have sensed this slight vibe shift, which is, I think six months ago, we were pretty sure that if Trump won, he would be out the door quickly to make space for somebody much, much younger. And I think his ego is getting in the way, and he's not going anywhere, at least right away. And that could save us from someone 40 years younger than him, which I appreciate. So that's what I'll say about.

[Melissa Murray]

I don't know if it's ego in as much as what would the utility of, like, giving him private jet travel and fancy vacations be if he weren't on the court? So I like that he is just so unabashed about it. Like, the man had a whole separate income stream that basically duplicated his actual salary.

[Leah Litman]

Well, so what I was going to say is he seems to be good at asking for things without asking for them. Right. Like the conversation that ProPublica reported between him and the Republican legislator where he was like, you know, unless you raise those salaries, you're going to get some retirements. After which, you know, the billionaires stepped up to basically offer said alternative funding stream. You know, the guy knows how to drop a hint.

[Melissa Murray]

Passive aggressive. I like it.

[Leah Litman]

Yeah. Okay. Next up would be friend of the pod Samuel Alito. What can I say about Sam? So my highlight for him would be, or my favorite thing would be every hero needs a villain. And I feel like he is very good at being ours. So thank you, Sam.

[Kate Shaw]

He gave Leah a whole book, and I will always appreciate that.

[Melissa Murray]

I'm just. I'm gonna go be shallow. Like, I. I do think it's amazing that he's managed to be post 70 and his skin looks relatively supple. It has fallen off in the last couple of years. I'm not gonna lie. He was a lot better when we started the pod, but still pretty strong. And I also like how supportive he is of his wife.

[Leah Litman]

Yeah. And her rights and her flags. Next, Justice Sotomayor. So I think it is truly admirable the pains she goes to to continue doing her job, like, with such care and attention to details and to every litigant, even while her colleagues are just embroiled and descending into madness. You know, I think about. Kate, you mentioned your colleague Karen Tani's foreword to Harvard Law Review about how the court curates its own docket. Right. And like the cases that it chooses to give attention to and the litigants it chooses to give attention to. And I think Justice Sotomayor really models someone who gives attention to every case and every litigant in a way that is really admirable.

[Kate Shaw]

I have recently had occasion to reread the immunity decision, and that dissent remains one for the ages. And I just really appreciate that she gave us that in this unbelievably shitty term the court had last year that had produced that dissent.

[Melissa Murray]

So I obviously like a lot of things about Justice Sotomayor, but I think related to the court, my favorite thing about her is she is always willing to try and find the kernel of good in her colleagues, even where most of us might really question if it exists. Like, she. I mean, she's on this.

[Leah Litman]

We've been going around saying our favorite things about all of that.

[Melissa Murray]

No, but I mean, she really digs deep. I mean, she's on this, like, girls trip with Amy Coney Barrett. I mean, she really. She really tries to make it congenial. And even one, I don't even know how she does it. So good for her.

[Kate Shaw]

Justice Kagan.

[Melissa Murray]

Justice Kagan. I like how cheeky she is.

[Leah Litman]

Yeah. So that would definitely be one thing. I feel like I have repeatedly expressed this, but the utter frustration she evinces, sometimes with cheekiness, sometimes with barely concealed rage, but the frustration she clearly has at the stupidity and hackishness of her colleagues and some lower court judges is so eminently relatable. I love it. And I also think the way she writes makes. Not makes me, but, like, helps me want to stay in the fight and to keep fighting. Right? And it feels like a shout of like, we ride at dawn. That is just like, energizing.

[Kate Shaw]

And I feel that way about both her writing and her Persona at an substantive questions during oral arguments. Like, it is profoundly energizing to listen to her eviscerate and also listen to her lift up advocates who deserve both of those kinds of treatment. Like listening to her, as we've highlighted with Solicitor General Prelogger, essentially just serve Prelogger. These pitches that Prelogger uses to make these extraordinary arguments and also the kind of, like, unsparing contempt that she demonstrates towards some of the advocates who appear before her and deserve it. Always polite and always graceful. But I do find, like, a real jolt of energy often comes from listening to her at her argument.

[Melissa Murray]

I think, again, I think she's super cheeky. I also appreciate that she goes on this, like, summer tour where she goes to the ninth Circuit Judicial Conference. And basically it's just like, why can't we have an ethics code? What's the problem? I mean, she's just basically trolling and everyone's like, yeah, why can't we have an ethics code? She's like, I don't know. I think it'd be great. I'd be down. I love that she's great. All right.

[Kate Shaw]

Neil Gorsuch.

[Leah Litman]

Neil M. Gorsuch.

[Melissa Murray]

I like that he brings geographic diversity to the court.

[Leah Litman]

So I like that his self satisfaction makes him easy to criticize or okay to criticize without seeming like I am going too far or like we are going too far just because, like, he's just so.

[Melissa Murray]

He makes snarking fun.

[Leah Litman]

Neil, right, Exactly. He justifies snarking, basically.

[Kate Shaw]

I like that he wrote a book that someone, not us, because we don't have time, but someone, is going to write an extraordinarily satisfying takedown. Book review of Please. I'm putting this out to the universe because he, his book has, I think, some profoundly dubious characterization of some basic factual dimensions of some of the cases he talks about. And we just recently finished our hate read book review of Josh Hawley's the Masculine Virtues America Needs. And I don't think we have it in us to do the same to Gorsuch's book, but I really would like someone to. And I appreciate that Neil wrote a book that will make that Easy for the right reviewer.

[Leah Litman]

Next up, Justice Kavanaugh. You can keep the silence in.

[Kate Shaw]

Okay. Weirdly, I am going to say something you guys will probably jump down my throat for, but I. During oral arguments, he seems like he's trying to be liked so hard that I sometimes almost want to like him.

[Leah Litman]

Oh, God. Almost works.

[Kate Shaw]

Or it's not quite that I want to like him, but I feel like his kind of keening need to please could be useful under some circumstances in substantive cases. Like, he just wants to be liked so much. It feels like that, you know, down the road, that could be helpful. It could get him onto the right side of the situation.

[Leah Litman]

And yet it has never actually proved how yet.

[Kate Shaw]

It hasn't yet, but it just feels like it's out there as a real possibility.

[Leah Litman]

False hope. So I don't know if I've said this before or suggested it before, but I look at Brett Kavanaugh as, in some ways, like an inspiring story about how much you can achieve without having any real talent or smarts. So if I look around at the world, the tiktoker Addison Ray is now a Grammy nominee. Like, that is inspiring. And in some ways, so too is the fact that Brett Kavanaugh managed to be a Supreme Court justice despite his mediocrity.

[Melissa Murray]

I think it's great that he's a pretty good athlete for his age.

[Kate Shaw]

He did run that five year old.

[Melissa Murray]

No, that's what I'm thinking of. And he was really shy. Yeah, he was a good athlete. I mean, we're all getting up there. And not all of us. I'm not looking at you, Kate, but I am looking at you. We're not all posting, like, some sub 4 marathons. Is that a thing?

[Kate Shaw]

Well, he. We're talking 5Ks. He's running 5Ks. I don't think he's running marathons, but he's killing sub 8 minute miles.

[Melissa Murray]

Yeah, he's killing the genre. Good for him.

[Kate Shaw]

Got it. Got him at that.

[Melissa Murray]

No, that's good. Again, I'm just being snarky, Kate, because, like, I'm not running marathons. And I'm glad you are, and I'm glad he's doing it, too. Good for him.

[Leah Litman]

Justice Barrett.

[Melissa Murray]

I like her school marm energy. I like that she stays on that. Like, I mean, she reminds me of Eliza Wilder in Little House on the Prairie. She was the schoolteacher and Almanzo's sister before Laura became the schoolteacher and just like, kind of like prim and like, I feel like, you know, like. And she's an equal opportunity destroyer. Like, she will wrap everyone's knuckles. Like, not just her liberal sisters, but also. I don't mean sisters in that she's liberal, but they're ladies. And she will also wrap the conservative brothers. Like, she's just. Like, she's an equal opportunity school mom. And I like that for her.

[Kate Shaw]

I think she's been conditioning her hair differently and better, and I like it. I think she's. I think there've been some improvements in her hair.

[Leah Litman]

I appreciate the dulness of her thinking that her Republican bro colleagues are engaged in the project of law. I just think it must be nice to be able to inhabit that type of thing.

[Melissa Murray]

But always gets her school marming going.

[Leah Litman]

Exactly.

[Melissa Murray]

That's where she's. She's like, what do you mean? Like, and then she's rapping knuckles, and.

[Leah Litman]

I'm like, yeah, but I like that.

[Melissa Murray]

Like, I like that she's there for that.

[Leah Litman]

Yeah.

[Melissa Murray]

All right. Finally, last but certainly not least, Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson. Favorite thing about Justice Jackson. Go, Kate.

[Kate Shaw]

I mean, that she decided to be the first Supreme Court justice to, like, take a turn on Broadway. Like, legendary. I love that, that she's been thinking about that since college. I like that, too.

[Leah Litman]

Yeah. There is so much to like. Like the energy and positivity that she brings to the oral arguments, like, while still being able to channel, like, the righteous indignation and kind of horror, like, at what her colleagues are doing. Like, I just think that is a really tricky balance to be able to strike. And she somehow does it. And also, anyone who can secure Beyonce concert tickets, that is.

[Melissa Murray]

And disclose them.

[Leah Litman]

And disclose them. Respect. Respect.

[Melissa Murray]

So my favorite thing is that she's married to Dr. Patrick Jackson. And before you jump all over me, let me explain myself. It's not him per se, but I like that she has him out there being so unabashedly adoring of her. And she's just sort of sitting here like, yes, bitches, this is what I deserve. I am beautiful, I am smart, I am capable. And this is what I deserve. A doctor who unabashedly adores and worships me. And I think every person needs to know that that is what they deserve. Someone who unabashedly adores everything about them and is leveling on their level. And that's what I love about her. Aspire to more.

[Kate Shaw]

One of the many charming things about her memoir is the sort of early development of her relationship. In college, they were really young when they got together, she and Patrick. Anyway, so it's A very, very.

[Melissa Murray]

I saw your eyebrows go up. Like, where is she going with this?

[Leah Litman]

Yeah, you landed it. You landed it.

[Melissa Murray]

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[Leah Litman]

Next up is our gift giving ideas. We are going to go around and offer recommendations for something you want, something you need, something to wear, and something to read.

[Melissa Murray]

You should also use this if you have grabby ASCII kids like just limit them to four gifts. Something you want, something you need, something to wear, and something to read. Follow us for more parenting tips.

[Leah Litman]

So first up is something you want. I'm gonna go big in my asks here. So I want an album recordings of all of the acoustic surprise songs from the ERAS tour, especially the mashups like I just think she has to release that as an AL album. It would be incredible. I would love it. So that's one thing. Second, smaller portrait of my dog. I already have like three or four but you can never have too many.

[Melissa Murray]

My wants are pretty minimal I guess. A bit like the fifth circuit. I would really like the Elena Kagan gold paperclip chain necklace. Like I know it's not just her gold paperclip chain necklace, but I saw her wearing it once and I really loved it. It's just like really simple and it looks really nice and I'm hoping that someone will get one for me for the holidays. Quint has a very good one, but lots of other jewelry stores like Anna Louisa have them as well. But it's just kind of a classic thing and you can layer it. It's really great. The other thing I would want is like just a totally rando gift. I want a consumer classic retro manual typewriter. I don't know if I'LL actually type on it. But I would like to put it in my background and have it on the shelf just looking cute as Taylor Swift said.

[Leah Litman]

Who uses typewriters anyways?

[Melissa Murray]

Well, maybe not me, but I think I would like to decorate with it. Like, I just love the idea of like an old school typewriter. And then I just saw this new green pan nonstick ceramic cookware. And you all know I cannot stand to cook. But maybe I would if I had these really great pans. And then the last thing I just really want, I want an alternative to Amazon prime so I can stop being Jeff Bezos's bitch.

[Leah Litman]

I like the Go Big asks dream big.

[Kate Shaw]

There are small local efforts so to do like alternatives. Amazon Prime. So there's a, like in New York there's a grocery delivery app called Mercado which will get from like lots of sahadis will deliver from there. And like this, there's like a seafood place in Brooklyn by me, Mermaid's Garden, I think it's called that is on there. Anyway, so it's. They do like Italy now also. Anyway, so if you want to like avoid Instacart and like Whole Foods slash Amazon, but for grocery delivery, Mercado I think is an alternative. There's like an annual fee, but it might be worth it. But you're saying like that's not everything under the sun. I need, I need. But it's impossible for somebody to enter the market and be a genuine competitor. So I think you need to replace with multiple alternatives that fill some of the Amazon.

[Melissa Murray]

What I need is someone to send me like three, three styrofoam balls and some acrylic paint and pipe cleaners the night before a diorama is due. Like that's what I, I need someone who's gonna do that in two days or less.

[Kate Shaw]

But I, I do think you're. You said something come up completely offhand to me the other day about going to the Legos website. And you know there are things that you will sometimes do on Amazon because it's fast and Amazon does have some Legos. But you know what? You know where you can find a lot more Legos?

[Melissa Murray]

The LEGO store.

[Kate Shaw]

If you go to the fucking LEGO website. And so I actually ordered a couple of really good sets from the LEGO website. So yes. Do you have to like sometimes depending on what, whatever Bezos enter your credit cards? Well, no, no, I'm saying like, no, you have to. It's a little. That's the, that, that is the cost and of the benefit is like the ease and like, you know, seamless transactions. But sometimes you have to put in a credit card. Just make yourself spend a couple of extra minutes doing your online shopping in order to diversify the places that you give your monies. Beyond just.

[Leah Litman]

Jeff Bezos, what's your something you want?

[Kate Shaw]

So, a couple of things that I want. I. I feel like this might be related to that necklace that you mentioned. I have not seen Elena Kagan's paperclip necklace, but I do have a. A paperclip ish necklace from a designer named Jennifer Fisher. My husband got this for me. I love it. I would kind of like more of her jewelry. And if folks don't know her now, now you do. Okay, so there is a designer the Lower east side named K, who makes beautiful suits. So my friend Issa dressed me for both of our live shows in June, including this, like, mustard suit I wore to the Tribeca live show that is by this designer, K. And I want one of her suits that I actually own as opposed to just borrow. So that's another thing I want. I have. So this is literally me just sharing something that I have found incredibly useful in my life and with my family is we have an electric scooter that we are now on our second electric scooter. We had one last year that we just kind of rode into the ground. And we have a second one rides two people. We, like, ride our kids around in, like, the 1 to 2 mile radius where we have to take people for basketball practice and, you know, piano lessons and things like that. And it's actually kind of amazing if you are in an urban place and don't have a lot of access to a car and sometimes need to go places that are just a little far to walk with a kid and the subway doesn't conveniently go to. Electric scooter is actually amazingly helpful.

[Melissa Murray]

Are you worried about getting hit by something or do you wear a helmet when you ride?

[Kate Shaw]

We wear helmets. So. So we, we. I wear a helmet. The kid wears a helmet. And I mostly go where there are bike lanes. And I feel like people are pretty acclimated to bike lanes, but, like, yeah, there's, you know, a non zero risk that happens. So I think you have to be super, super vigilant. But I've been an urban cyclist for, you know, 25 years, and so I'm really used to being very active, monitoring kind of the movements of cars and pedestrians around. So I feel like I'm a good defensive scooter. But yeah, there's obviously a Risk. Okay. And the last thing I want is I want some WNBA tickets.

[Melissa Murray]

I want those too.

[Leah Litman]

I want to go to see Ellie the Elephant. Me too badly.

[Kate Shaw]

It's so I. The games are so we're talking about the New York Liberty. But if you live in a city that has. There's not one in every city. There are like a dozen teams now. There were eight, six or eight when they started 20 some years ago. But the WNBA is an unbelievable delight and it's exploding in popularity. But it's still a lot cheaper to go see a WNBA like playoff game than it is to see like NBA playoff game. Like my, the games are now the finals are five games, not seven. But my kids and I and my husband went to two of the five of the playoff games that the Liberty won this year. And they, the tickets were totally reasonable and the team is amazing. Yeah, Ellie the Elephant is amazing. The crowd is amazing. It's like I wish when we had been kids there had been women professional athletes like this. I just think I would have at least as a kid developed a very different relationship to professional sports spectatorship than I did. I just like was a little annoyed that it was all men in all these sports that seemed to select for like the things that men's bodies were better at or that they trained better at. And I was just kind of irritated by the whole enterprise. And so I just never got super into watching professional sports. And I think I would have if the WNBA had been a big thing when I was a kid. And I love that my kids are super into it and it's not just my 13 year old daughter but like my 10 year old boy and his like super broy friends know the New York Living stats. Like they know the have jerseys. Like they went there was like a celebration at Barclays after they won the playoffs, after they won the finals and they went and spent like six hours like listening to Chuck Schumer talk and shit. Like it was amazing. So and these were like these kind of free tickets they were just giving out in Brooklyn anyway, WNBA tickets. Like it doesn't need to be the whole season but like a little 10 game package or something. Melissa, we should go in on those.

[Melissa Murray]

We should definitely go in on them.

[Leah Litman]

I I do remember when the started stinks to live.

[Kate Shaw]

So this is what what I want. I want Leah to just like spend a year or a semester at one of the fine law schools in the New York City area. Can we please do that?

[Melissa Murray]

Let's make this, it's not up to me or you could just fly out. We can go to one of these games. But I, I remember when the WNBA got started and you're right, Kate. When we were kids, I think the only thing where women's sports were kind of a big deal were the Olympics. Like every, like really episodically, every four years we'd find some very small teenager to celebrate because she was a great gymnast.

[Leah Litman]

Now, something we need. Oh, girl. Yeah. Where to start? So one is emotional support. Fill in the blank. So, Kate, you mentioned, you know how your students gave you like the plush potato after the election. I got an emotional support pickle as a gift.

[Melissa Murray]

Your students gave you gifts after the election?

[Leah Litman]

No, this is not from a student. Just as a gift. I got an emotional support pickle and it really makes me smile.

[Kate Shaw]

Like a little crochet and stuffy kind of thing. Okay. I don't think I knew it was a genre. There's a pickle, there's a potato.

[Leah Litman]

Exactly, exactly. I really, yeah, am into that. And I think they just make nice, nice gifts. So the other thing I need is I need the Wisconsin Supreme Court race to go the way it should this next year. That is super important to maintain control of that court.

[Melissa Murray]

Yeah. So I'm going to start big. I need an independent media. And how do I get that? I mean, I'm Bardi 0 for 1 with the Amazon prime, but I think I can make a dent in this one by getting a year long subscription to my local NPR affiliate. So that could be WNYC here in New York. But I also really love supporting my longtime Bay Area affiliate KQED and all of those folks. And I think that's something I'm going to do this year just because independent media matters more than ever and that is really important. Other emotional support that I think I need. Leah, I'm going to really dig into this muslin, comfort sheets and blankets. So for January 20th, I'm pretty sure I'm going to be in bed with the covers over my head and I want covers that are super soft and breathable. And I really want to try this because it's supposed to be this muslin and it wears really well over time and when you wash it, it gets softer and softer. So I want to try that. I also want to try the Baraby weighted blanket. So if it gets really bad on January 20th, maybe the blanket can just be weighted enough to smother me to death and put me out of my misery. That would be great. And if that doesn't work less weighted.

[Kate Shaw]

Than that I would be ideal.

[Melissa Murray]

Well, and if I then have to come out of my shell and meet people and interact, I want some Jiao hand refresher. So this is a hand sanitizer, but it's also hardcore aromatherapy. Every time I use it, I'm just like putting my hands in my face so I can smell it. I know my hands are clean afterwards too. And then I'm going to go home after shaking all those hands with people who maybe attended the inauguration because unity. And I'm going to use my onsen towels. These are my absolute favorite towels. They're awesome. Japanese waffle weave. They're super absorbent. They look great. They come in a variety of very fashion forward colors. Kate, you got any needs?

[Kate Shaw]

I have so many needs, Melissa, but whoa. I'll just mention a few of them. I agree. I also need an independent media. We all need an independent media. Sometimes employers will even match contributions to non profits, including non profit media orgs. So that might include NPR or ProPublica. If you're in New York, the city is a relatively new outlet. If you're in Chicago, the Chicago Reader is being revived as a nonprofit. So these are all places to support and to check to see if your employer will match your support of to double your impact. That is like a real thing. One thing I feel like I need, I have, but I probably need more. And I also just think we all need in our lives are group chats. I just feel like group chats are actually a very important social media. Maybe you guys know this. Like I have, I, I, I'm, I'm on it. I'm not super active on it. I feel very conflicted about it. I'm very happy not to be on Twitter anymore. I do think the vibes on Blue sk, as we have noted, are very good. And so I check blue sky pretty regularly. But the places that I find like the most fulfilling in sort of digital life are just various group chats. We have one, we're on with Melody all the time. I have various kind of like girlfriend groups. My husband and I have like a couple of with groups that we were people we were tight with when we lived in D.C. my family group chat. And those are just these spaces that, you know, there's not like strangers reading your words and you're not, you know, reading sort of strangers or like loose mutuals words. It's just like your people and, and that is I feel like the kind of digital interaction that actually is really healthy and generative and so I feel like less social Media. More group chats.

[Melissa Murray]

I do like our group chat.

[Leah Litman]

Yeah, I love group chats.

[Melissa Murray]

So we've done something you want, something you need. Now I think it's time for something to wear. So, Leah, what would you like to wear in the new year?

[Leah Litman]

I am obsessed with skims, soft lounge. Like, that fabric on the pajamas is.

[Melissa Murray]

It's really nice.

[Leah Litman]

So nice. I change into it seriously, like every evening after like 8pm I just. I love it. I love it. It's like actual loungewear. It is, it is. So I cannot recommend that enough. I also am obsessed with the cozy earth viscous from Bamboo Crew neck. I put it on every morning when I do physical therapy. Like, it has this really nice, like, buttery fabric, but it's also light. And when I like, work up a sweat, it doesn't feel like, too heavy. I just. I really, really like it. Also super into the RealReal online consignment, basically where I get all my workwear now. And they just have amazing deals.

[Melissa Murray]

So.

[Leah Litman]

Also the RealReal.

[Kate Shaw]

Melissa's been mentioning these for years. I should. I have not ever.

[Melissa Murray]

I've been on the RealReal since 2013.

[Kate Shaw]

Wow.

[Melissa Murray]

I don't think I've been on that long. Actually ran into, I think the GC of the RealReal or the Associate GC and like, just completely fangirled. And she's like, no. No one's really approached me like this before. Get ready, get ready. The whole strict scrutiny team's on board.

[Kate Shaw]

All right, all right, I got it. I will get on board before next year, before our next favorite.

[Melissa Murray]

I'm gonna make sure you do.

[Kate Shaw]

Like, when I showed up in Austin wearing. Wearing a wool blazer, it was September.

[Melissa Murray]

I was like. I was like.

[Kate Shaw]

It was really hot. And Melissa was like, I've seen this blazer too many times. You need to change your clothes more and also not wear a wool blazer in Austin in September. And was true. And maybe RealReal is the solution to that problem.

[Melissa Murray]

I think it is the solution for you. I. I just like you. It was uncomfortable because it was so warm. It's a beautiful blazer.

[Kate Shaw]

It's fine. It's nice. Oh, it's an argent blazer. It's very nice. But it was the wrong. It was seasonally off.

[Melissa Murray]

Seasonally off. That's okay. That's why I'm here for you. I'm. I'm here to tell you these things in a non judgmental, but judgmental way.

[Kate Shaw]

A little judgmental.

[Melissa Murray]

Yeah, a little bit.

[Kate Shaw]

Okay, so in addition to the RealReal, what are your something to wear recommendations.

[Melissa Murray]

Well, if you're going out and you're wearing, like, a fancy dress and you want, like, a smooth line or you just want to make sure that you've got lots of support with your outfit, I cannot recommend highly enough Honey Love shapewear. It's really fantastic. It smooths everything. And the best part is your internal organs don't move around. It's not like you're like, whoa, is that my kidney that's now, like, up by my little.

[Kate Shaw]

Is that a literal corset?

[Melissa Murray]

Yeah, it's exactly. I mean. I mean, there was this period where people were really into waist shapers because the Kardashians were into it. And, like, I mean, honestly, it just looks so uncomfortable. Like, this is not that. It's just really nice and it's comfortable. It's easy to get on. I mean, some of the shapewear, like. I mean, it's like hydraulics. You're trying to get into that you need a spotter. This is much easier and very effective. I really like it. So I highly recommend Honey Love. And they've got lots of different kinds of shapewear for all kinds of things. I really love the Aritzia super puff belt bag, which holds a little bit more than the very ubiquitous Lululemon fanny pack, but it's still very lightweight and stylish, comes in a lot of different colors and different fabrics. It's fantastic. This is not a clothing recommendation, but I am totally into Danessa Myrick's yummy Skin Blurring balm powder, which is this really interesting, like, no makeup kind of foundation situation. Like, you take a little brush and you just dab it on, and it kind of just blurs your skin tone. So you don't need more makeup on top. It just kind of smooths everything out and a little goes a long way. So you pay like $39 for this, but I think it will literally last until the rapture. It's so like, it's just a little goes a really long way. And then finally, I really love the Veronica Beard iconic scuba dicky jacket. So it's a classic blazer that you can wear on your own. Or they have these little zip in inserts that you can use to change the look. But here's my caveat. It's crazy expensive. It's almost 700 for the Blazer, and then in addition for the inserts.

[Leah Litman]

But.

[Melissa Murray]

And this is where the realreal comes in. Sometimes you can find really gently used or even new with tags versions of this blazer on the Realreal. And you can pick them up at a sizable discount. Discount. Or if you really want to try something new. Quince has a really fantastic dupe of the Scuba Blazer. And it's just $89 for the Blazer and then a little bit more for the inserts. And it looks really great. Super professional, Very, very versatile.

[Kate Shaw]

This is so pathetic. That what I I, But I, I'm listening to your recommendations and I will heed them and make them my own because as we've discussed, I just like, I'm not attentive enough to. I don't like know enough even to know really what I want. Um, so I, we do need to work on my wardrobe in 2025. One thing I do want, I actually have a version of it, but I want a better version of it. Is a really good like running water backpack like that to kind of carry your water with you while you run. Because I ran my first marathon like a month ago. Congrats and thank you. It was not fast, but I ran like a five hour marathon, which in the marathon world is like not a fast marathon. It's actually like there was definitely like an 85 year old lady in front of me as I was like in the last mile of the marathon. But I ran it. It was an awesome experience. But the training often happened like out of the city. And I did not like, when you're running like 10 or 15 miles, like you do need to have water with you because if you're not in a city with water fountains, you just, you know, you can't like stop to drink along the way. Anyway, Solomon is like one brand that makes like nice water backpacks. So I invested in one, but it was like not super big. And so I think I need a little bit more water because I want to keep running.

[Melissa Murray]

Camelback has one. That's really what people seem to like.

[Kate Shaw]

You should try that kind. Yeah, maybe I should. But anyway, so you want a water addition to my.

[Melissa Murray]

That's what you want to wear?

[Kate Shaw]

Something to wear. That's what I want.

[Melissa Murray]

A water backpack. Okay.

[Kate Shaw]

I also, I want. But I've also already ordered these, so I more want to share it with you guys and our listeners. I think family jammies are really fun and we do Hannah Anderson family jammies. The dog ones. Pretty cute. In the two years, three years I guess it's been since we've. This will be our third year with Shadow and some family jammies. She's like a big girl now. So like they don't always have the extra large and whatever pattern that you know people jammies come in. But I found some this year. But yeah, the Hannah Anderson ones are my wreck.

[Melissa Murray]

Those are. I used to love Hannah Anderson when my kids were really little.

[Kate Shaw]

Turns out though.

[Melissa Murray]

Yeah.

[Kate Shaw]

Yeah, it's good high quality kids clothing. But they also excel in the matched family jammies set and dog jammies apparently. Yeah. And dogs are well part of the family.

[Melissa Murray]

So you want a water backpack and pajamas for you and your dog. Anything else?

[Kate Shaw]

These are my.

[Melissa Murray]

I am going to take over your wardrobe this year.

[Kate Shaw]

I think you might need to do that.

[Melissa Murray]

Yeah.

[Kate Shaw]

Yeah.

[Leah Litman]

So final category is something to read. We will start with some friend of the POD favorites. So some of our I think collection favorites from people who are friends of the pod. One is Vigilante Nation by John Michaels and David Knoll. This is a book about kind of laws that are empowering vigilantes. You know, as the title suggests, kind of like SB8 and other laws like it and kind of what that structure is doing to our democracy. Second is the Interbellum Constitution by Alison lacroix. This book is a phenomenal, rich, exhaustive look at federalism before the Civil War. I think so much of the book is really going to change how we teach and understand federalism going forward. So would definitely recommend that. Also Anti Democratic by David Daley. Understanding and unpacking the different anti democratic pathologies within the United States. So those are I think kind of the group ones. My particular ones that I loved last year. You might have heard me mention this in the bookshop.org ads, but bright Young Women by Jessica Knoll I absolutely loved. It's not a bright, happy book, but it's just like a very powerful read from the perspective of, you know, the victims of a Ted Bundy like serial killer. And it's fantastic. It just like looks at all of the different ways that like misogyny infected like our understanding of the crimes, the coverage of the crimes, the way they were dealt with. It's really, really good. Funny Story by Emily Henry. Another delightful read. You should be so Lucky by Kat Sebastian. Another kind of like romantic book that you know has some like light fun elements to it. The Women by Kristin Hannah. I think that was pretty popular this last year. Fight Like Hell by Kim Kelly about the history of the labor movement. The Hunter by Tana French and the Blue Stockings by Susannah Gibson, which is a history of this early cadre of like women writers. And I just love that. Also not books, but recommend to read subscriptions to Law Dork Chris Geidner's legal newsletter, Abortion Every Day by Jessica Valenti and 1 1st street by Steve Laddick. And one book I am anxiously waiting for in 2025 is the Summer Storms by Sarah MacLean. I love her historical romance books. This is going to be a modern one, and I'm just super psyched to see what she does with it.

[Kate Shaw]

Awesome. So I've read some, but not all of those, so that is a great list. I, too, I'm going to repeat a few that I'm pretty sure I've mentioned before. So I really loved Miranda July's All Fours and Percival Everett's James. I mean, just the formal conceit of James was just so brilliant. And I was a little bit like, I don't know if I even, like, love Huck Finn that much. Do I really. Do I need to reread? It's a little bit like Demon Copperhead. I was like, do I need to reread David Copperfield to actually read and get Demon Copperhead? And the answer is absolutely not. James is, you know, for many people, was like the best book of the year. It is a retelling of Huckleberry Finn from the perspective of Jim in the book, James in this book, who is the enslaved person who accompanies Huck on and Tom Sawyer for part of it, on this, you know, kind of journey down the river to an island and much, much, much more. And I don't want to say too much about the formal conceit and the language of the book, but it is stunningly brilliant in conception and execution. I absolutely loved it, Highly, highly recommend it. Octavia Butler's the Parable of the Sower I had somehow never read and read sometime earlier this year. And it's set in 2024, which is pretty wild and has shockingly current resonance, including some there's dystopia and political figures who will just, like, ring very, very current, even though the book is, you know, decades old. Elena Ferrante's Days of Abandonment I had never read, even though, you know, I've read other books of hers, and that's a tough but really excellent book. Adele Waldman's Help Wanted is a fiction book, but it's kind of in the tradition of Barbara Ehrenreich's Nickel and Dimed, which is. That's a reported book where she goes undercover and, like, works a retail job. Waldman kind of did the same to research this book. But then the book itself is not this memoir, but in fact a fictional account of this kind of like, big box store in upstate New York and this amazing cast of characters in the store. And it's just incredibly well done. I also really loved Hilary Leichter's Terrace story, a very, very weird sort of couple short stories woven together. But, you know, neither kind of defies the novel or novella versus short story distinction. Anyway, really loved that. And then a handful of nonfiction books. One is Eve by Cat Bahannon. I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing her last name properly, but it is kind of an evolutionary biology book about women's bodies and has chapters on everything from menopause to breastfeeding to why women are better distance athletes. And it is lyrical and beautiful. She's like a PhD in fiction. And I she's not a doctor or a PhD scientist, but it is deeply researched medicine and science in the book, and I thought it was incredible. And then we've had on the show before the authors of a couple of wonderful books that Leah didn't mention. So I did want to shout out Rebecca Nagle's by the Fire We Carry and Dylan Penningroth's before the Movement, two extraordinary books published in the last year.

[Leah Litman]

By the Fire We Carry has made like, several best book lists. And then Dylan Peningrot's before the Movement and Steve Vladic's Shadow Docket just won the Order of the Coif Book Award. Both of them. So, yeah, two more.

[Kate Shaw]

One, I finally read David Blight's Frederick Douglass Project of Freedom, a Douglas biography that got a lot of praise when it was published a few years ago. I say read, but I actually listened to it. But it's a great. It's beautifully read and, you know, I don't know what, 20 hours or something, so it takes a long time. But I highly recommend it if you have not read it. And then I reread To Kill a Mockingbird with my seventh grader, who was reading it in seventh grade so last spring. She's in eighth grade now, and I'm glad I did. I actually, as a lawyer, had not revisited it. I hadn't revisited it since I was a kid. And so I really enjoyed that. So that's what I got.

[Melissa Murray]

Okay, those are all really good ones. I also read James and we talked about it. I thought James was absolutely fantastic. I also liked Percival Everett's Erasure, which is the basis for the movie American Fiction starring Jeffrey Wright, which is fantastic as well. And that got me down a big rabbit hole where I figured out that one of my favorite authors, Danzie Senna, is Percival Everett's wife, which I did not know. And Danzy Senna had a great debut novel back in the day called Caucasia. But she just wrote a new book this year called Colored Television and it's just a fantastic novel. She's a terrific writer in her own right and Color Television is a hilarious send up of academia and literary culture. And it's about Jane, a mixed race writer and college teacher who is desperate for money and struggling to finish her second novel and somehow talks her way into a meeting with a Hollywood producer who is making a sitcom about a biracial family. And it's kind of hilarious. So highly recommend that I also read Jonathan Eig's A Life and it is just amazing. It's going to be the definitive biography of Martin Luther King. It won the Pulitzer Prize for biography this year. Just absolutely fantastic and sweeping and amazing. So highly recommend. I also loved Colm Toibin's Long island, which is the sequel to his wildly successful Brooklyn. And this one finds Eilish Lacey 20 years later trapped in a marriage on Long island with Tony, who was her love interest in the first book. And there is a surprising turn of events that requires her to return to her Irish hometown and reconnect with old friends and an old love. And I'm just going to leave that tantalizing detail there. I also read Ilyan wu's Master Slave Husband, an epic journey from slavery to freedom. And this was also a Pulitzer Prize winner and it is just absolutely fantastic. It reads like a novel, but it's actually NonFiction about these two enslaved people, William and Ellen Craft, who basically went undercover to escape from Georgia to the north. And then everything that follows. It's just absolutely amazing. So riveting and just it should be made into a movie, full stop. Fantastic. And then my last one, which is absolutely fantastic, is Rob Sears, the Beautiful Poetry of Donald Trump, the Strictly Unauthorized Version. And Sears realized after reading some of Donald Trump's tweets that this is a man who has a way with words. And so he combed all of Trump's tweets and all of his speeches for signs of poetry and realized that if he just rearrange some of the phrases and words, beautiful verse emerged and the results are stunning and surprising and of course hilarious. And I highly recommend it. It's completely sold out on bookshop.org because it's that great.

[Kate Shaw]

Okay, so that is, I think, I hope, a useful list of book recs for your book gifting and just general reading pleasure over the holidays and in the coming year. Let's now mention a couple of podcasts and I just have two that I wanted to mention, but I'm curious if there are others that you all are listening to that we should tell our listeners about. The first is one that the show Cliff Sloan flagged for me. It's called Ear Witness and it's a story of To Forest Johnson, who really appears to be. I haven't listened to the whole, it's like eight, I think, episodes, but really appears to be an innocent man who has been on Alabama's death row for a quarter century for the murder of a police officer. He was convicted basically on Ear Witness testimony, which is where the title comes from. So I'm really enjoying that and looking forward to finishing it. And also want to mention a podcast called Less Radical, which is about Dr. Bernie Fisher, who is a fascinating figure who really revolutionized our understanding of and treatment of breast cancer. The show was produced by our own fabulous producer, Melody Rowell. The thanks that Dr. Fisher got for his revolutionary work was being dragged before Congress for a misguided hearing that destroyed his reputation. And the themes of the podcast are just all too familiar. Politicians, strong arming scientists, women being cut out of their healthcare choices. And it's a six part series. Episodes are all out now if you want to binge it.

[Melissa Murray]

All right. Mine are pretty quick because I don't have time to listen to any other podcasts but the ones on the crooked network. But when I do, I listen to Mind you'd Own with Lupita Nyong'o. This is by Lemonada, and it's a storytelling podcast in which the Oscar winning actress narrates stories from the modern African diaspora. It's really great. There's also a really terrific podcast. It's a series called Rebel Spirit with Akilah Hughes and it's a documentary where Hughes goes back to her hometown in Florence, Kentucky to convince her town to abandon their longtime high school mascot, the Rebel, in favor of the humble Southern buttermilk biscuit. What ensues is a very richly reported meditation on race and culture and sports. Really fantastic. And then finally this. This isn't a podcast. It's a Netflix documentary and it's called Yacht Rock the Documentary. And it's absolutely fantastic and I will not hear a word against it. It is the Meghan Markle of 1970s 1980s music documentaries. And I loved it.

[Leah Litman]

Strict Scrutiny is brought to you by Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Clean water, fresh air, our health, electricity. We tend to take for granted the things that matter most like the separation of Church and State. For more than 75 years, Americans United has been on the front lines defending your freedom to live and believe as you choose, so long as you don't harm others. But that right is not a given. Every day it seems like Christian nationalists are hatching new plots to force us all to live by their narrow beliefs. Backed by a billion dollar shadow network, this vocal minority is pushing their anti democratic agenda everywhere. But here's the thing, you can make a difference. Join Americans United for Separation of Church and State and our growing movement because Church State Separation protects everyone. Learn more and get [e-mail] Crooked Strict scrutiny is brought to you by Selectquote it feels like most of the news we're subjected to 24. Seven is bad or downright depressing about the future. With so much out of our control, the future can feel overwhelming. Regain control with the Life Insurance Policy from Select Quote this is a bit of a downer, but you all heard me talk about my bike accident and that was really scary and it honestly got me started looking at life insurance and wills and that entire subject area. It's a lot. And that's why Selectquote is so helpful. Selectquote is one of America's leading insurance brokers with nearly 40 years of experience helping over 2 million customers find over $700 billion in coverage since 1985. The licensed insurance agents at Selectquote work for you to tailor a life insurance policy for your individual needs in as as 15 minutes. And have you ever worried about getting coverage with a pre existing health condition? Selectquote partners with carriers that provide policies for a variety of health conditions. Select Quote they shop, you save get the right life insurance for you for [e-mail] strict go to SelectQuote.com strict today to get started. That's SelectQuote.com strict okay, so now to bookend our gift guides with another favorite things go around game. We are going to usher in a new tradition about saying our favorite things about each other.

[Kate Shaw]

One thing collectively which is that this is like a aspiration as in addition to favorite things which is I absolutely love it when we very occasionally in our insane lives get a little bit of like downtime together to hang out. Like when we were in Hawaii like a year and a half ago that was so fun and I just really wish we had more time in our lives to occasionally do that.

[Melissa Murray]

We had a great roadie carrying our luggage and that was absolutely critical.

[Kate Shaw]

He's fun, but with or without any spouses of the pod. I really wish that we had we were able to do that more. I don't. You guys, I'm going to do a little bit of collective. You guys are both so goddamn fast at synthesizing everything and writing and thinking. And I just admire the out of it both like the speed and the depth that you both bring. And I constantly am like, I saw the 5th Circuit, issued this crazy ass opinion with 150 different concurrences. And by the time I processed that, Leah has like read them all and like written up a show note about them. It's out of control. And you're just so generous and selfless. Leah, on the kind of labor front. And Melissa, I don't understand how you fire across all of the different literary, cultural, genre like spaces that you do at any given time. Deep history, you know, Greek philosophy, reality tv. Like, it's insane and so impressive. Anyway, you tour just. I'm doing it collectively. Hope that's okay. Yeah, I'm just like endlessly impressed by both of you and feel deeply lucky that I get to spend time basking in your auras on a weekly basis. But I just wish we got to do it on the beach.

[Leah Litman]

I totally agree. I'll go next because I don't want to go after Melissa because I feel like Melissa's very good at this. I don't want to follow her. So, Melissa, I'll start with you. I feel like you are so good at the pull and the like in the moment reference where you can just immediately take something someone said and do this like, crazy pull either from pop culture or like philosophy or literature and whatnot and just make it hilarious. Like the references are out of control. Also, I don't think our listeners appreciate how fucking funny you are because you make us edit out all of the funny things. Or not all of the funny things, but many of the funniest things.

[Kate Shaw]

No, we leave it a lot. But there are so many that come out.

[Leah Litman]

So many that come out because they.

[Kate Shaw]

Get a little cheeky.

[Leah Litman]

So funny.

[Melissa Murray]

Try and not go to jail.

[Leah Litman]

Also, style is off the hook. One time you said you liked a blazer I wore and I was like, fucking put it in the Louvre because I know I made it.

[Melissa Murray]

It was a good blazer. It was such a good blazer.

[Leah Litman]

There we go. So, Kate, I can't believe you just said you are jealous of the speed and depth we go into because I feel like you are one of the craziest, busiest people I know and you are constantly jetting around, but then you have five to 10 minutes to, I don't know, pop into a note and then immediately add these high level thoughts that I feel like, make an episode and, like, make our commentary really work that I just, like, wouldn't have come up with. And second is, you managed to be very cool without making me feel bad about myself. And I feel like that is a really admirable quality. And I'm not sure how you do it because I don't know many people who do.

[Kate Shaw]

Thank you.

[Melissa Murray]

All right, so it's my turn. I have to land this. Okay, let me just call out the folks in the background who are not on the camera right now. Melody and Michael, who make us sound great all year long. You guys are absolutely fantastic. Melody, I so appreciate your patience with us because we are always turning it around, being like, hey, what about a whole new series this summer that we plan to take off on Project 2025? And, you know, I appreciate that you roll with it. You chide us gently sometimes and really sort of pull us back and try to keep it contained. But you're really good about letting us do our thing and we really appreciate that. Michael, you are such a great new addition to the team. I love how you very graciously invite us to record. So this isn't all for naught. And we always have backup recordings. Thank you for that because, like, some of us are not tech savvy. And thank you for getting crooked to give me a new microphone in the new year. I appreciate that a lot.

[Leah Litman]

And also, Michael has to endure our pre recording chatter at the beginning of every episode. And he handles it like a champ, so cannot.

[Melissa Murray]

Cause it's wild. It's wild.

[Leah Litman]

It is. It is actually wild. Off the chains. And Melody, I feel like she keeps me cool and hip with the kids. Like, she's the one that got me into TikTok, so. Yeah, really?

[Melissa Murray]

She's an agent of the Chinese Gate.

[Leah Litman]

No, she is not. But she is just very generous and positive, but also has this, like, cutting humor. So, yeah, great combo.

[Melissa Murray]

Melody and I have, like, some good book talk. They're not talks really, but like, good side book conversations. And she's the one who turned me on to book of the month. Kate, I think you are, like, the most generous person about other people's work. Like, you always find a way to highlight other people's work and make it relevant to what we're talking about. And, like, you're just really, really good at calling out and giving people credit where we're just like, we're so busy that it's sometimes hard and we can miss things that are really important. But you're always really great about calling attention to people whose work is really relevant and. But might go overlooked. And you're especially good about doing it for people who are junior. I also love how gracious you are when we snark on your pop culture. Like, is, like, it's a running bit. I think we have to keep doing it just because everyone expects it. But I love that you're trying to, like, add more popular culture to your repertoire. Like, no one else tries as hard to get up to speed. I mean, if. If Brett Kavanaugh could just apply this kind of work ethic to other things, like, everything would be totally different. And I love that about you, Leah. You're like, the heart and soul of this whole enterprise. You're always like, I was supposed to write the show note for the December recap. I went to go do it and found that you had already done most of it. Like, that happens all the time. So you were, like, the beating heart of this, and you have such a clear vision for the show and, like, what we should be doing and how we can be impactful, even when it feels like everything is just going to shit. So one of your best qualities, that you are unbelievably pessimistic and realistic, and yet you channel your rage into something positive. And it's so nicely complimenting Kate's incredibly delusional optimism in some cases. Like, I mean, like, just sometimes I'm like, it's just the perfect marriage. We are the perfect marriage, if you will. Like, we are three people, so maybe we are polyamorous in that respect, and that's interesting, too. But I love everything about this. I don't think I could have made it through November 6th through 10th without knowing I had you all to come back to because it was, like, kind of a dark time. And, like, knowing that I would be able to come back and talk to you guys about it made it easier. I will also say, Leah, you should go into your own T shirt making business. Like, you just made me the best in search of emotional support billionaire T shirt. And you're always doing stuff like that, like, making these great T shirts. You know, back in the day when we used to make all that merch, it was really all easy just making merch constantly. And, yeah, those were the. Those were the salad days when we just made merch all the time. And it's. It's your genius. Like, all of it. And we Just wear it and we wear it proudly. So I'm glad we are all in this together. I'm excited for 2025. Actually, I'm not excited for 2025, but I'm excited for 2025 with you all. And together it's going to be one.

[Kate Shaw]

Of the only things about 2025.

[Melissa Murray]

Ish.

[Kate Shaw]

It's going to bring some comfort.

[Melissa Murray]

We're going to be the real project 2025. That's what we're going to rename this podcast, the Real Project 2025 and watch what happens.

[Leah Litman]

No, girl, we're not.

[Melissa Murray]

All right.

[Kate Shaw]

Finally, we have a tribute to our most favorite thing you, our listeners. Earlier this year we asked you to send in voice memos telling us a little bit about yourself and when you listen to the podcast.

[Leah Litman]

And a brief kind of side note here, a special thank you to the listeners who responded to my desperate cries and pleas when I needed to go to the ERAS tour after I couldn't go this past summer. And they literally made it possible. So Gianni Janke, Jennifer Buttrick, Laura Peto, Alyssa Frederick, like, the insane grace and generosity you showed was like truly moving. And I now have a video of myself seeing Cornelia street live, in which I, like, burst into tears the moment I realized what song is playing. And yeah, I just cannot even articulate how meaningful that was. But back to the listener voice memos. Okay, so we can't play all the listener voice memos, but we did listen to them all and they mean so, so much to us. Our reviews aren't always the kindest and there are challenges to doing the podcast. And again, the best thing about this is your listeners and we wanted to give you a taste of the strict scrutiny audience that makes this all possible and this community so wonderful.

[Melissa Murray]

Hello ladies. Or should I say, Bonjour, Madame. Hi Strict Scrutiny. I'm coming to you from Zug, Switzerland. Greetings from Germany, from the upper valley of Vermont, New Hampshire. I'm calling from the great Southwest.

[Leah Litman]

I am an A.P. u.S. Government teacher and debate coach who works at an international school in Taipei, Taiwan.

[Melissa Murray]

I'm a financial analyst listening to you.

[Leah Litman]

From my home in Newcastle, Australia.

[Kate Shaw]

I just finished my second year of law school at the University of Oklahoma College of Law.

[Melissa Murray]

I'm Isaiah. I'm a first generation law student and I just finished my one year.

[Kate Shaw]

I am currently a law student in.

[Melissa Murray]

The Southeastern United States, also known as Hell.

[Kate Shaw]

I have completed my PhD and started.

[Leah Litman]

A position as Assistant professor of Musicology at Wichita State University.

[Melissa Murray]

I am a veterinary student at the University of California, Davis. I'm in Mill Valley, California and I sell real estate here. I'm listening to you from Butte, Montana. I'm an attorney who works on offshore fisheries.

[Kate Shaw]

I'm actually a physician. I practice anesthesiology here in North Dakota.

[Melissa Murray]

For work. I'm an applied mathematician working on problems in the ocean domain. I'm a dairy farmer in Wisconsin. I'm a sign language interpreter from Melbourne, Australia. I am a bat biologist.

[Leah Litman]

I am a patent examiner. I am an obgyn and a full.

[Melissa Murray]

Time abortion provider in Chicago. I always listen to the podcast on my Monday morning runs and I have had strict scrutiny in my ears on cross country flights, on cross country drives. I am a mother to a nine month old and I have been listening to the POD during my maternity leave and what I wanted to recognize you for was empowering me to be a court watcher. That is a genuine chain sound.

[Leah Litman]

And in my small French town I.

[Melissa Murray]

Listen to you and I shake my head thinking that we are living in a strange world at strange time. I've been listening a lot while mucking.

[Leah Litman]

Horse pens and stalls and given the Supreme Court decisions y'all have been going through, just feels like the fact that I'm actually shoveling horse manure is relatable content.

[Kate Shaw]

You've helped me learn about the law.

[Melissa Murray]

Whilst flinging a lot of poop. I mean, it's literally got to be in the thousands of pounds by this point. So thank you for inspiring me, each and every one of you, for being true to who you are and making law approachable and fun even in the face of the demise of our democracy.

[Leah Litman]

I am just so appreciative of all.

[Melissa Murray]

Your work and for making the Supreme Court and all its shenanigans so accessible. Now I listen to your podcast to keep abreast of how the right is.

[Kate Shaw]

Dismantling the rule of law and get ideas for how I can help defend.

[Melissa Murray]

Democracy and civil rights.

[Kate Shaw]

It feels like a voice of sanity and reason, you guys.

[Melissa Murray]

Allow me to process it along with you and release all, all of that.

[Kate Shaw]

Rage that I feel as a fellow Swiftie.

[Melissa Murray]

I'll say that I definitely enjoyed the.

[Kate Shaw]

Collective excitement over Taylor releasing the tortured Poets department.

[Melissa Murray]

I think that Taylor should absolutely make an appearance on the show. I love you guys and thanks for the Taylor Swift references too.

[Leah Litman]

I'm really just gonna keep doing abortions by day and keep listening to you all by night. Keep on fighting the good fight.

[Melissa Murray]

And I'm sipping Martha Rita and a Ginny Tonic cheersing to you three. Please know that somewhere out there there's a pretty run of the mill transactional attorney brewing coffee in a firm and saying out loud with a grin, all I ask of our brethren is that they take their mother fucking feet off our necks.

[Leah Litman]

Some Concluding Notes if there are positive or unhinged court developments you want us to highlight in the New year, please feel free to write in with them. We love being able to celebrate the great things some of our listeners are helping to do. We all need to find positives these days and a note on our programming. We will be off next week, but will return in the New year with a special episode tailored to the day the episode will be released. So in the meantime, happy holidays from everyone at Strict Scrutiny and we will see you in the New year.

[Melissa Murray]

Before we go, some additional thoughts from gripping Hidden histories to mysterious cold cases, Crooked's limited series are your ultimate road trip or cozy couch companions. Whether you're driving to your in laws, relaxing in front of the fire, or just avoiding those awkward family convos. Unravel the mystery of a prominent judge's death in Killing Justice. Follow the shocking transformation of a Chinese civil rights activist into a MAGA Trump supporter in Dissident at the Doorstep, or immerse yourself in the hidden history of America's largest police force with Empire City, the untold origin story of the NYPD, named one of the top podcasts of 2024 by Time magazine, Vulture and the New York Times. You can binge these series and more, including strict [e-mail] or find them wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kate Shaw]

Strict Scrutiny is a Crooked Media production hosted and executive produced by Leah Lippman, Melissa Murray and me, Kate Shaw Produced and edited by Melody Rowell. Michael Goldsmith is our associate producer. Audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis Music by Eddie Cooper Production support from Madeline Herringer and Ari Schwartz. Matt de Groat is our head of production. Thanks to our digital team, Phoebe Bradford and Joe Matuski. Subscribe to strict scrutiny on YouTube. To catch full episodes, find [e-mail] strictscrutinypodcast if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe to Strict Scrutiny in your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode. And if you want to help other people find the show, please rate and review us. It really helps.

[Melissa Murray]

Only if you're nice.

[Kate Shaw]

Only if you're nice. Not if you're naughty coal.

[Melissa Murray]

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[Kate Shaw]

Loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtibank.

[Melissa Murray]

Ondeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. Once upon a time, Amazon Music met.

[Leah Litman]

Audiobooks, and listeners everywhere rejoiced.

[Melissa Murray]

Oh yeah, because now they could listen to one audiobook title a month from an enormous library of popular audiobook titles, including Romantasy, Autobiographies, True Crime, and more. Suddenly, listeners didn't mind sitting in traffic.

[Leah Litman]

Or even missing their flight.

[Melissa Murray]

Amazon Music Unlimited now includes Audible Download, the Amazon Music app now to start listening terms apply.