The Illegality and Injustice of ICE’s Minnesota Occupation

Summary

Strict Scrutiny S7 Ep17: The Illegality and Injustice of ICE’s Minnesota Occupation

Release Date: February 2, 2026
Hosts: Leah Litman, Kate Shaw, Melissa Murray
Special Guest: Tommy Vietor

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Episode Overview

In this episode, the hosts dive deep into the ongoing federal occupation of Minnesota by Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), covering recent legal developments, the impact on local communities, and the erosion of constitutional protections. The conversation then shifts to Trump administration foreign policy, including the controversial "Don Row Doctrine," and concludes with notable legal news updates. Special guest Tommy Vietor, co-host of Pod Save the World, joins to discuss the global implications of the administration’s actions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Supreme Court Break & Opportunity for Deep Dives

• The hosts note that the Supreme Court is on an unusual three-week break between sessions, providing the podcast with time to focus on pressing legal stories beyond the Court's immediate docket.
  • “The break between arguments does give us a little bit of time to cover some of the many other legal issues that are unfolding.” — Kate Shaw [04:06]

2. ICE’s Occupation of Minnesota

Background:

• Federal government has launched “Operation Metro Surge,” a mass ICE deployment in Minnesota, which the hosts argue has led to the suspension of constitutional rights for political retaliation against a blue state.
• Recent flashpoint: The killing of Alex Preddy, a nurse and ICE observer.

Major Litigation & Court Developments

• Four ongoing lawsuits:
  1. Minnesota v. Noem: State challenges federal overreach, seeking to end Operation Metro Surge.
  2. Police suit: Aims to preserve evidence tied to Alex Preddy’s killing.
  3. ACLU suit: Seeks to stop ICE from using race/ethnicity as probable cause.
  4. Private citizens’ suit: Fights discrete ICE tactics like tear gas and pepper spray on bystanders.
• TRO (Temporary Restraining Order) won by plaintiffs in the private citizens’ suit was stayed by the 8th Circuit just before Preddy’s death, allowing ICE’s aggressive tactics to continue.
  • “The 8th Circuit... decided it would stay that lower court ruling. And this occurred just days before Alex Preddy was murdered as ICE agents pepper sprayed him and another observer.” — Melissa Murray [06:54]
• The 8th Circuit criticized for using dubious reasoning to prevent class action relief, effectively making it harder for victims to seek protection against abusive federal enforcement.
  • “If they won’t certify a class action, well, that’s not a real backstop to eliminating the universal injunction...” — Melissa Murray [09:14]

Judicial & Political Responses

• In Minnesota v. Noem, the federal government’s coercive tactics—demanding voter rolls, Medicaid data, reversal of sanctuary policies in exchange for ending the occupation—take center stage.
  • “Very mafioso. Your money or your life style governance.” — Leah Littman [15:03]
• District court judge—unprecedented situation, reluctant to block ICE occupation due to lack of direct precedent.
  • “It’s unprecedented to have essentially an army stir the pot with conduct that includes illegal, violent conduct.” — Melissa Murray [16:20]
  • Judge ultimately denies Minnesota’s request for a preliminary injunction, citing lack of case law and ‘line-drawing’ dilemmas.
  • Hosts emphasize that unprecedented abuses should not be given a pass just because there’s no prior ruling.
    • “...Of course there isn’t any case law; that doesn’t make it legal.” — Leah Littman [19:37]

Notable Moments & Quotes

• Pamela Jo Bondi, DOJ official, publicly posts mugshots in violation of DOJ rules.
  • “You do not take notes on a motherfucking criminal conspiracy, much less put it on her head and send it off.” — Leah Littman [17:45]
• District Judge in Texas infuses judicial order with direct constitutional rhetoric and bible verses when ordering the release of a detained five-year-old and his father.
  • “The case has its genesis in the ill-conceived and incompetently implemented government pursuit of daily deportation quotas, apparently even if it requires traumatizing children.” — District Judge, quoted by Leah Littman [20:19]

ICE Leadership & Ongoing Abuses

• Greg Bevino (former ICE lead in Minnesota) is replaced by Tom Homan, architect of Trump’s first-term family separation policy, who continues extortionate tactics publicly.
  • “The withdrawal of law enforcement resources here is dependent upon cooperation... as we see that cooperation happen, then the redeployment will happen.” — Tom Homan [28:52]
  • Homan blames “rhetoric” of Minnesota politicians for federal agent killings, a deflection the hosts lampoon.
• New ICE abuses: Continued family separations, targeting protesters and journalists, maintaining lists of identified “agitators.”
  • “There has been a database maintained by DHS on people arrested for interference…Alex Preddy seems to have been on DHS or CBP’s radar.” — Kate Shaw [33:27]

Judicial Pushback

• Chief Judge Schiltz (a former Scalia clerk) orders ICE leadership to appear for possible contempt due to repeated court order violations.
  • “The court’s patience is at an end... ICE has likely violated more court orders in January 2026 than some federal agencies have violated in their entire existence. ICE is not a law unto itself.” — Judge Schiltz, quoted by Leah Littman [39:34]
• DOJ’s attempt to indict journalists for protest coverage is denied at first, but they escalate by making arrests, signaling a “genuine police state.”
  • “This feels like the next stage in the construction of a genuine police state.” — Kate Shaw [42:28]

3. Political Fallout & Legislative Response

• Democrats negotiating possible funding moves—potential to withhold ICE and DHS funds unless the occupation ends. Host frustration at cosmetic “reforms” rather than substantial change.
  • “Get ICE the fuck out of Minnesota and prohibit surges elsewhere.” — Leah Littman [27:10]
• Partisan manipulation: ICE pullback in Maine possibly to help Susan Collins’ reelection, revealing a willingness to weaponize federal law enforcement for political aims.

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Foreign Policy Segment: “Don Row Doctrine” and International Lawlessness

Guest: Tommy Vietor (Pod Save the World)

Trump’s “Morality” as Restraint

• Trump brazenly rejects international law, citing only his “own morality” as a limit:
  • “Yeah, there's one thing. My own morality, my own mind. It’s the only thing that can stop... I don’t need international law.” — Donald Trump, quoted [50:52]
• Vietor satirically summarizes:
  • “I think it's moral to murder people in boats in the Caribbean. I think it's moral to kidnap heads of state. I think it's moral to bomb Nigeria on Christmas Day based on what seems to be totally made up evidence of a Christian genocide.” — Tommy Vietor [51:12]

The “Don Row Doctrine”—Sphere of Influence and Global Retreat

• Trump administration tries to revive an isolationist Monroe Doctrine—caring only about the Western Hemisphere—but in practice, interferes globally.
  • “What does the world look like if the US 'owns' the Americas and leaves the rest of the world to be carved up by other great powers?” — Leah Littman [52:21]
• Concerns over US withdrawal from NATO and Pacific commitments, and risky signals to Russia and China.
  • “It makes the United States weaker, because we view ourselves as a global superpower.” — Tommy Vietor [52:34]

Venezuela, Slush Funds, and Kidnapping Presidents

• US military operation to kidnap Venezuelan president cited as precedent-busting.
  • “...does Trump’s blatant disregard of national sovereignty legitimize Putin’s war on Ukraine, embolden China when it comes to Taiwan?” — Kate Shaw [53:50]
  • “I share all of your questions about this Qatari fund with, like, hundreds of millions, billions of dollars... Can the United States government just, like, open a Venmo? Is that what's happening?” — Tommy Vietor [54:37]

NATO Alliances in Peril

• Threat to invade Greenland and transactional, dismissive US rhetoric threaten NATO stability.
  • “I think he did incalculable damage to NATO. I think they already thought we were unreliable, but this is probably the nail in the coffin.” — Tommy Vietor [57:08]

Unilateral “Peace” Claims Debunked

• Vietor methodically debunks Trump’s false claims of ending eight major wars:
  • “He prevented a war from ever happening.” — Leah Littman sarcastically [72:32]
  • (See timestamps 67:00–72:35 for rundown of conflicts: Israel/Hamas, Israel/Iran, Armenia/Azerbaijan, DRC/Rwanda, India/Pakistan, Cambodia/Thailand, Egypt/Ethiopia, Serbia/Kosovo.)

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Legal News Updates

1. Epstein Files

• DOJ releases new trove of Epstein-related documents, revealing disturbing ongoing elite complicity, compromising newly nominated federal officials, and again tying Trump and Musk to the scandal.
  • “Some notables from this batch include Melania’s close relationship with Ghislaine Maxwell... Elon Musk lobbying for an invite to Epstein island…” — Leah Littman [74:15]

2. Fulton County, GA Search

• FBI executes a warrant at the Fulton County GA Elections Department, seen as an effort to sow distrust and lay groundwork for challenging future election results.
  • “This is really very scary. It seems designed in part to sow more distrust in our election systems…” — Kate Shaw [76:34]

3. Host Shoutouts and Recommendations

• Coverage acknowledgment of work by Chris Hayes, Steve Vladek, Barry Friedman, and Jonathan Van Ness.
• Personal recommendations: “His and Hers” on Netflix, “King of the North” (MLK biography), “Migrations” by Charlotte McGonaghy.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “My guys, it’s not some big secret what peaceful and unobstructive protest activity is... It’s the abuse, stupid.” — Melissa Murray [12:28]
• “Children being walked into detention centers because their parents have been detained…” — Melissa Murray [32:50]
• “Trisha McLaughlin, a spokeswoman for DHS, dismissed the judge’s concerns about ICE’s violations. She characterized them as, ‘a diatribe from this activist activist judge. Justice Scalia would like a word from heaven.’” — Melissa Murray [43:38]
• “We are in, I think, a timeline that is the worst possible version of what a Trump 2.0 could look like… this is them breaking, I think, incredibly dangerous new ground.” — Kate Shaw [43:14]
• “Flooding the zone, as they have done on the domestic front, works. And so we've been very concerned with what they are doing domestically and haven't really attended to foreign policy…” — Kate Shaw [72:36]

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Key Timestamps Summary

• 04:50–19:37: Deep dive into the four major Minnesota lawsuits and courtroom developments
• 19:37–21:57: Judicial and administrative responses to ICE overreach
• 26:45–33:27: ICE leadership shakeup, continued abuses, and manipulation for political gain
• 38:16–42:28: Federal judges holding ICE accountable, arrest of journalists
• 50:35–73:03: Tommy Vietor on Trump’s foreign policy, “Don Row Doctrine,” NATO, slush funds, and false peace declarations
• 74:15–79:08: Epstein files update; legal news wrap-up (Fulton County, GA)
• 82:01: Hosts’ favorite things & recommendations

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Conclusion

This episode offers a sobering yet irreverent look at the devastation wrought by ICE’s “Operation Metro Surge” in Minnesota, illustrating the dangerous normalization of constitutional violations and the federal government’s unchecked, retaliatory power. The hosts and guest Tommy Vietor expose similar recklessness on the world stage and urge vigilance, legal creativity, and collective action. The episode closes with hope found in learning, solidarity, and—sometimes—just a good TV binge or new book.

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For further reading & listening:

• Vanity Fair: “Peace and Vanity” by Ta-Nehisi Coates
• The Atlantic: “Minnesota proved MAGA wrong” by Adam Serwer
• Chris Hayes’ reporting from Minnesota
• “His and Hers” (Netflix), King of the North (MLK Jr. biography), “Migrations” by Charlotte McGonaghy

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(Summary compiled by Strict Scrutiny podcast summarizer – see episode transcript for additional detail and nuance.)

Transcript

[Leah Littman]

Strict scrutiny is brought to you by Americans United for Separation of Church and State. We are all legal nerds here and we know that precedents set in any area of the law ripples out across our lives in so many ways. Our right to religious freedom is one of the most sacred areas of the law, protecting almost every aspect of our daily lives. Rights we all hold dear like LGBTQ rights, freedom to choose the type of health care you need, and ensuring a well funded and inclusive public school system. Protecting the separation of church and state is in fact protecting the very foundation of our democracy. If you're looking for ways to more deeply understand the connection of and from religion to so many of the civil justice issues we see today, you should check out the Summit for Religious Freedom or Surf, an annual conference held in D.C. and virtually April 25th to the 27th, 2026 at Surf. Advocates, organizers, faith leaders, atheists and everyone in between come together to take on the growing threats of Christian nationalism and the efforts to impose one narrow religious belief on us all. This is a movement for big change and collaboration across the entire spectrum of religious belief and non belief that strengthens our democracy, protects public schools, reproductive and LGBTQ rights, and more. Be part of the movement that's pushing back and standing up for freedom. Register to attend today@the srf.org let's do.

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[Tommy Vietor]

It's an old joke, but when a man argues against two beautiful ladies like this, they're going to have the last word.

[Leah Littman]

Spoke. Not elegantly but with unmistakable clarity, she said, I ask no favor for my sex.

[Kate Shaw]

All I ask of our brethren is.

[Leah Littman]

That they take their feet off our necks. Hello and welcome back to Strict Scrutiny, your podcast about the Supreme Court and the legal culture that surrounds it. We're your host today. I'm Leah Littman.

[Kate Shaw]

I'm Kate Shaw.

[Melissa Murray]

And I'm Melissa Murray. And we are in a unique period in the court's calendar. Usually the court takes a one week break between different argument sessions. So after it hears arguments over the course of two weeks, it will take a week off and then return for the next sitting. So they just manage to give themselves little breaks here and there and got to say, don't mind if I do. Not like I'm working in the public interest or anything.

[Kate Shaw]

Their calendar to aspire to.

[Leah Littman]

Yeah, it. Sure.

[Melissa Murray]

Okay.

[Kate Shaw]

So that's normally how it works, but it's actually different between the January and February argument sessions, which is where we are now. So the court actually takes a three week break from hearing arguments.

[Melissa Murray]

Again, don't mind if I do.

[Kate Shaw]

Not right? Not like there's anything important to resolve. Although given what's likely to come down the pike, I don't think we should begrudge them.

[Leah Littman]

They can take years off. Three years.

[Kate Shaw]

We'll take it. Yeah, it's good.

[Leah Littman]

Yeah.

[Melissa Murray]

I wish they'd taken a break between 2023 and 2026.

[Kate Shaw]

That would have been nice. And forget three weeks perpetuity. But a couple weeks off from arguments at least is, you know, a tiny little gift in this otherwise cursed timeline. And we should say the justices may still get up to no good on the shadow docket, which does not respect the calendar or anything else. But the break between arguments does give us a little bit of time to cover some of the many other legal issues that are unfolding. And that's how we're going to spend the next. Going a little bit deeper on some of the important issues we often have to go short on when the court is in session.

[Leah Littman]

So this particular week, we are going to cover developments in Minnesota and the ICE occupation of that state. We will also talk about the Trump administration's destructive approach to foreign policy, where we will be joined by a very special first time guest. And finally, we'll touch on some legal news.

[Melissa Murray]

Let's talk about Minnesota ICE developments. Last episode we talked about the tragic, terrible ICE shooting of Alex Preddy, an ICU nurse at a VA who was observing ICE's presence in his neighborhood and filming ICE officers as they shoved other observers. The shooting happened A month into DHS and ICE's mass deployment and occupation of Minnesota, where, as Kate has said, the federal government has seemingly suspended large chunks of the Constitution that it finds inconvenient to its project of terrorizing and punishing communities that did not vote for the president.

[Kate Shaw]

So there have been a few important developments since Melissa and Leah recorded the update to our last episode that we wanted to bring you up to speed on. They involve various developments in litigation, in political responses to the latest killing, and new frontiers in the weaponization of the Justice Department, specifically arrests for the crime of journalism. So the last episode noted some of the ongoing litigation related to the ICE occupation. And we're going to talk a little bit more about what the state of play with those cases is. There are actually four separate cases, and just so you have the lay of the land, we will take through all of them. One is Minnesota versus Gnome, a case brought by the state of Minnesota that seeks to end Operation Metro Surge, which is what they are calling their occupation of Minneapolis. We will come back to that one in a second. Another is the police suit against federal officers that is trying to ensure that the federal government doesn't destroy or contaminate evidence any more than they've already done, which is considerable. Related to the ICE shooting of Alex Preddy, Minnesota law enforcement obtained a temporary initial order that prohibited the federal government from destroying evidence related to the Preddy case.

[Leah Littman]

There is also a separate case filed by the ACLU that seeks to bar ICE from stopping Latino and Somali residents without probable cause or without using their apparent race and ethnicity as probable cause. And the fourth case is one brought by private citizens that sought to enjoin particular discrete ICE practices like tear gassing or pepper spraying observers or using non lethal munitions on people observing or protesting. We're also going to come back to this one.

[Melissa Murray]

So all of these cases are in different stages. So we'll focus on the ones that are a little bit further along and unfolding at more significant phases of litigation. So in the private citizens case, seeking to block the use of particular practices, the plaintiffs obtained a temporary restraining order, a TRO that blocked the abusive use of tear gassing and pepper spraying practices. But then the 8th Circuit, a runner up for the world's worst circuit court, decided that it would stay that lower court ruling. And this occurred just days before Alex Preddy was murdered as ICE agents peppered sprayed him and another observer. We should note that 8th Circuit is an intermediate appellate court that includes 12 active judges, but 11 of those active judges were appointed by Republican Presidents so.

[Kate Shaw]

The 8th Circuit gave two separate grounds for why the district court's injunction was issued in error. And unsurprisingly, we take issue with aspects of both of those grounds. The circuit first said that, quote, the grant of relief to such a broad, uncertified class is just a universal injunction by another name.

[Melissa Murray]

But wait, wait, I thought we weren't, you know, just going to give people no opportunity to seek redress in an aggregate fashion. If we weren't going to do universal injunctions, we were going to do this class certification thing. George Conway told me it would be fine.

[Kate Shaw]

Real basic.

[Leah Littman]

In fact, Trump versus CASA specifically said that while universal injunctions aren't permitted, class actions are. Universal injunctions are where courts block a policy from being applied to anyone. Class actions are where courts say, you, plaintiff, can litigate this case on behalf of you. And a class of people like you. And CASA said that courts could block policies from being applied to anyone who is part of that class.

[Melissa Murray]

Now, as you know, we hate to say we told you so, but we did tell you so. One of our big concerns with the CASA decision was that while the court was trying to soothe everyone with its promises that their ruling on nationwide injunctions was no big deal because there were still class actions, we were like, wait, what? The same court, the same Republican appointees that literally make their antipathy for class actions known every possible chance they get, and here we are. So if they won't certify a class action, well, that's not a real backstop to eliminating the universal injunction as they did in casa. So we're basically stuck with a whole whack a mole, catch me if you can style of litigation. I believe Katandi Brown Jackson said we might get one of those where the only people whose rights are protected are those who are in a position to mount their own litigation.

[Leah Littman]

Yeah.

[Kate Shaw]

Now, the 8th Circuit attempted to smooth over what seemed pretty clearly to be an effort to claw back this part of CASA by saying, well, it's really just that this particular case, quote, has no chance of getting certified as a class. And class certification, quote, is not necessary to preserve our jurisdiction. Let's noodle over those reasons, too.

[Leah Littman]

So on why this class supposedly couldn't or wouldn't get certified, the A circuit said that it watched the videos that were submitted to the district court and just kind of disagreed with the district court's characterization because deference to district courts for who? Dumbos and dickheads.

[Melissa Murray]

Everything de novo. De novo all the way down.

[Leah Littman]

The A circuit claimed that the videos show, quote, Observers and protesters engaging in a wide range of conduct, some of it peaceful, but much of it not, end quote, unclear what they thought wasn't peaceful. Peaceful. Like, was it the whistles? Because those do seem to be triggering a lot of MAGA heads. Like, words aren't violence, but whistles are. Gotta keep up with the discourse.

[Melissa Murray]

But more generally, a lot of different conduct might be part of observing ICE or protesting. And guess what? That still doesn't make it okay to pepper spray people for all of that varied conduct. So, yes, a class that is certified still makes sense. And on the idea that class certification isn't necessary to preserve the court's jurisdiction, my guys, no one ever suggested that it is a prerequisite to obtain class certification. The Supreme Court just mentioned that as a reason why they granted an extraordinary injunction, pending appeal to a prospective class of people that wasn't even certified. That was in the Alien Enemies act case, where the government was trying to ship more people off to seacot, that Salvadoran prison, and then claim that they could not bring any of those people back because Salvadoran prison there. The court said that blocking the expulsions was necessary to preserve its jurisdiction so the federal government couldn't hurry people off where courts couldn't review their claims and their expulsions. And that wasn't a prerequisite for getting a class action. So, six, seven. I guess.

[Kate Shaw]

My kids inform me they're no longer saying that.

[Leah Littman]

Circuit is the a circuit. Yeah. 678. Oh.

[Kate Shaw]

I fight every time I tried. They're just like, no, please, please don't. So the court of appeals also felt that the injunction was too vague in its directions not to, quote, retaliate against persons who are engaging in peaceful and unobstructive protest activity. Seems pretty clear to me, actually, but apparently not. It even thought that the provision of the injunction that singles out the use of, quote, pepper spray or similar nonlethal munitions and crowd dispersal tools was also too vague because it requires federal agents to predict what the district court would consider, quote, peaceful and unobstructive protest activity.

[Melissa Murray]

Again, my guys, it's not some big secret what peaceful and unobstructive protest activity is. It's not like the district court is sitting around here like, let's play hide the bald. They are telling you what they don't want you to do. No spraying tear gas directly into someone's face. No spraying pepper spray. I mean, it's like the abuse is the problem. It's the abuse, stupid. The fact that ICE can't distinguish between a wine mom with A whistle, driving a car. And unlawful activity is not the plaintiff's fault here like the district court.

[Leah Littman]

Got it.

[Melissa Murray]

And maybe the 8th Circuit could, too. Verdict still out on ice. Nor is it the plaintiff's fault that ICE officers are pretty gratuitously and shamelessly and randomly tear gassing and pepper spraying people for different kinds of behavior. In those circumstances, you kind of have to write a very broadly worded injunction to get them to stop doing all of the things because you couldn't actually sit down and enumerate all of the insane things that they're actually going to get up to. That's the thing about unchecked government authority. Sometimes you. You don't even know how unchecked they're going to be.

[Leah Littman]

Right. And we also have some notes on the court's discussion of the stay factors where the court expressed concern that the injunction's breadth and vagueness might cause federal agents to hesitate in performing their lawful duties. End quote. Ah, yes, the concern. ICE officers are too timid and too hesitant. This definitely checks the court of appeals. Also question what possible need there was for an injunction, quote, when all it says is to follow the law. Well, I don't know. Maybe the need is ICE isn't following the law. And we know they are saying they can enter homes without warrants, arrest people for being black or brown, or shoot people who fill them with phones. And yet you're telling me that telling them to obey the law is not needed and no big deal. It's just absurd. And, you know, after they said this, lots of video has come out about subsequent ICE activity. So take this video that was recorded after the ACE circuit declared there was no need for an injunction. I will tell you this, brother.

[Melissa Murray]

What you know, I will tell you this. You raise your voice, I raise your voice.

[Tommy Vietor]

If I raise my voice, you'll erase my.

[Melissa Murray]

Exactly.

[Leah Littman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tommy Vietor]

Are you serious? You said if I raise my voice, you'll erase my voice.

[Kate Shaw]

Okay, that's the first case. Next on to Minnesota versus Nome, which is the case in which the state has asked the court to enjoin the mass deployment surge in Minnesota. The case is before the same judge that had issued the injunction that was at issue in the conversation we were just having about the 8th Circuit, the one blocking specific ice practices. And the judge in that case heard argument last week.

[Leah Littman]

The theory that seemed to draw the most attention is that the federal government is basically coercing through extortion, the state, holding an entire state at gunpoint with these roving ICE patrols in order to demand things from the state that the federal government isn't entitled to and couldn't demand on its own, like voter rolls or Medicaid data or the state reversing its sanctuary city policy. Very mafioso. Your money or your life style governance. You know, the presidency as a protection racket.

[Melissa Murray]

Part of what seemed to raise questions at the hearing was the fact that the judge seemed to want the litigants to proffer cases that say that the federal government can't do this. But here's the thing. The federal government has never deployed mass armed, untrained agents and told them that they're absolutely immune in order to punish a state for its political views and its policies. Now, to their credit, the advocate for the state and the judge acknowledged that they were in uncharted waters. The advocate said, look, it's unprecedented to have essentially an army essentially stir the pot with conduct that is pervasive and includes illegal, violent conduct. And the judge says she appreciated the advocate's candor. And that quote, it goes without saying that we are in shockingly unusual times.

[Leah Littman]

True.

[Kate Shaw]

I mean, I think that that conundrum is so pervasive in the age of Trump 2.0, which is like, show me a case that says the president can't have a private paramilitary force funded by a Qatari bank account that terrorizes and murders American citizens. And like, no, there is no case that says that because no one has.

[Melissa Murray]

But you know what we do have? We have this. We have.

[Kate Shaw]

Good segue. What are you holding, Melissa?

[Melissa Murray]

It's the Annotated Constitution, A Guide for the Modern Reader by Melissa Murray.

[Kate Shaw]

Right. So Melissa's new book and the document that it elaborates is an obstacle to much of what the federal government is doing here, whether or not there is a specific case that says that. Right. That I think is critically important. So back to this hearing. Afterwards, the court asked for additional briefing on our girl Pamela, Joe Bondi's clearly extortionate demand that suggested that maybe DHS would remove ICE officers if Minnesota turned over its voter rolls, which a court said DOJ wasn't entitled to. When DOJ tried to sue Minnesota for the same voter rol in a separate proceeding. Bondi also said that part of the conditions for withdrawing ICE was that the state had to turn over its Medicaid and snap benefit information, which is definitely not related to immigration enforcement. And just to add on, the state would also have to withdraw its sanctuary city policy, which the state is constitutionally entitled to have. And the president is not constitutionally allowed to Order the state to change.

[Leah Littman]

Gotta hand it to Pamela Joe once again, girl. You do not take notes on a motherfucking criminal conspiracy, much less put it on her head and send it off. You know, during the hearing, the judge focused on figuring out, you know, what the surge is supposedly doing, like what harms or policies it's designed to fix. Because if it's not fixing anything, that means it's probably more likely part of an effort to extort a state through terror and occupation.

[Melissa Murray]

Pamela Joe Bondi saw her meet Dylan, calling other conservatives hoes and said, you know what? Hold my beer. I too can be clown this administration as much as she can. And she's been engaged in even more antics that basically make fools of the federal government and doj. She has been posting on X the mug shots of Minnesotans who were arrested for impeding ICE and the Customs and Border Patrol. And DOJ rules prohibit sharing a defendant's photo publicly. There are all kinds of things that relate to that sort of disclosure, like due process. Again, also in the Constitution. But you know what DOJ policies are for, folks? Folks do, you know, and due process. And due process. You know what that's for? Dummies dunking on all those things, Right?

[Leah Littman]

Yeah.

[Melissa Murray]

And plebes. So she's like, I don't care. I'm just doing it. Harmeet, your move.

[Kate Shaw]

It wasn't even good sort of social media strategy. I mean, in addition to violating DOJ rules and policies and constitutional principles and particular provisions, the mug shots, each individual in a mug shot was paired with an hsi. I think it was Homeland Security Investigations agent with their back to the camera. Just like my overriding impression from these photos was, was these are like brave badasses, these protesters, and they are completely cowardly, like goons who will not even show their faces. So I guess nice work.

[Leah Littman]

Pamela Johandi after we recorded the district court on a Saturday, no less, issued the opinion in Minnesota's case challenging Operation Metro Surge and denied Minnesota's request for an injunction to block the ICE surge and mass deployment. A disappointing result, albeit kind of an expected one. After the hearing, the court basically relied on a lack of analogous precedent, saying there just isn't any case where a court has concluded that the executive's mass deployment of law enforcement amounted to unconstitutional coercion or commandeering. The judge also said there would be line drawing difficulties in that theory about when does law enforcement become too much and excessive. And the judge said both of those considerations weighed against the preliminary injunction. It's tough because the reality is we are in an unprecedented situation of surges of casually lawless law enforcement that just crush a state or at least try to. So as Kate said, of course there isn't any case law that doesn't make it legal. Now, the judge said that didn't necessarily rule out ruling for the state later on. But as in so many cases, these preliminary interim rulings about what is going to happen from now until, whenever there's a final adjudication, that is the case because that determines whether ICE remains in Minnesota. The district court also said that a preliminary injunction was inappropriate at this point because there was some competing evidence in the record. Specifically, the United States said they were doing the surge for legitimate reasons, not extortion. Pamela Jo Bondi's letter notwithstanding, to me, the opinion kind of read both sad or disappointed and tired. I think it's important to know that the judge in this case, Minnesota's challenge to Operation Metro Surge, is the same judge that issued the opinion that blocked specifically specific abusive ICE practices, only to see that opinion stayed on pretty dubious grounds by the 8th Circuit. As we just discussed, it did make me wonder if the outcome in the Minnesota case might have been different or if the opinion might have been written differently, perhaps with more gestures to how catastrophic Metro Surge is for the people of Minnesota if the 8th Circuit hadn't stayed that other opinion. So while this decision is not unexpected, it's also hugely disappointing. The state and its people are undergoing just incredible hardship. This is really day in, day out. Every aspect of people's lives economically, businesses are burdened and often have to close personally, you know, physically, educationally, schools are shut down or go online. The courts aren't going to save us, but we have to keep looking for another way. Now in happier court news though, also on Saturday, a district judge In Texas ordered 5 year old Liam Conejo Ramos, the child in the blue hat who had been detained by ICE in Minnesota and sent to Texas. The judge ordered him and his father released as the government is apparently going to pursue its case to deport them. The judge wrote, quote, the case has its genesis in the ill conceived and incompetently implemented government pursuit of daily deportation quotas, apparently even if it requires traumatizing children, end quote. The opinion then cites some of Thomas Jefferson's grievances against the English king that led to the American Revolution, including, quote, he has sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people, end quote, unquote. Hmm, sounds familiar. The court added, quote, civics lesson to the government administrative warrants issued by the executive branch to itself do not pass probable cause muster. That is called the fox guarding the hen house. End quote. The order concluded with a judicial finger in the constitutional dyke. It is so ordered ordered that Liam and his father be released. In the judge's signature block, usually pro forma. The judge included the viral photograph of Liam in the blue hat, jacket and backpack being held by an ICE officer and cited two Bible verses, Matthew 19:14 and John 11:35. Just as FYI, the first verse is but Jesus said, suffer little children and forbid them not to come unto me, for of such is the kingdom of heaven. The second verse is just Jesus wept. Representative Ilhan Omar and Representative Joaquin Castro said Liam and his father were released in our home where they will be able to see a video that the New York Times compiled of Liam's classmates and the messages they sent to ICE1. A girl wearing braids and barrettes is asked to talk about Liam and two Liam. She includes a drawing of Liam's blue hat. Another child interviewed says, quote, you are making people really sad because you're just taking them away. While another says, quote, I just hope everyone can have their loved ones next to them. End quote. Now if that did not warm your heart and if you really want to use the force of federal government to go after 5 year olds, good news for you. The Department of Justice is hiring you can take notes on a criminal conspiracy with Pamela Jo because over on X Chad Mizell said, quote, if you are a lawyer, are interested being an AOSA, that's an Assistant U.S. attorney and support President Trump, DM, me and Deputy White House Chief of Staff Stephen Miller retweeted that yes, federal prosecutors now being hired on X over DMs One last quick update after we recorded the New York Times reported in the Department of Things I did not see not see coming that Greg Bevino, the former face of these mass deployments and terror campaigns, mocked a Jewish attorney's faith on a call call. The attorney is an Orthodox Jew who observes Shabbat. Bovino repeatedly used the term chosen people in a mocking way and according to the New York Times, quote, asked sarcastically whether Mr. Rosen understood that Orthodox Jewish criminals don't take weekends off, end quote. This is my shocked face. Also, if you're watching this on YouTube, yes, I will be making and bringing the shirts that I am wearing to our live show in Los Angeles, which you can still buy a ticket to and San Francisco. But now back to our regularly recorded episode.

[Kate Shaw]

So the response to the most recent ICE killing and abuses is very Much still developing. Last week, ICE demanded entry into the Ecuadorian consulate in Minneapolis, which, you know, they cannot enter. The consulate is labeled on the door. The Atlantic broke the story that in the aftermath of Preddy's murder, Greg Bevino was removed from his post. That's great. He is evidently now out of Minnesota, and it seems pretty clear that none of the people in charge of DHS should continue to have their jobs after this outrage and travesty. But the departure of Greg Bevino is nowhere near enough, especially since he's been.

[Melissa Murray]

Replaced by Tom Homan.

[Leah Littman]

Oh, yeah, we're about to get to Tom Homan. But I mean, how much do you think Bovino's departure is? Because he just looked short in photos and Donald Trump was like, like, he's not a manly enough man.

[Kate Shaw]

He's not looking the anymore. Yeah, right.

[Leah Littman]

Yeah, Very possible. Yeah. Honestly, that's what's going to save us from a justice. Emile Beauvais is Trump thinks he's just too fuggo.

[Melissa Murray]

Seriously, Trump doesn't like a short king.

[Leah Littman]

Yeah.

[Melissa Murray]

So there should be more demands and more fights for a meaningful response to ISIS plan to terrorize the entire state of Minnesota. Stephen Miller, Kristi Noem, all those folks were in charge and that kind of makes them responsible.

[Tom Homan]

Right.

[Melissa Murray]

Like, you broke it, you buy it. And maybe also unfit for any position of public authority. And this is why the midterm elections are so important, and they know it. Because if you get even a tip on the House, if the House changes hands and you can actually haul some of these folks in and have some hearings and. And like, literally light a fire under this.

[Leah Littman]

Yeah, yeah. And Democrats are negotiating now, like, what kinds of things are necessary for them to agree to any funding deal. You know, it's possible they are just going to separate out, you know, ice, DHS funding and separately negotiate about that. But, like, here's an idea. Get ICE the fuck out of Minnesota and prohibit surges elsewhere. Like, do not let cosmetic or symbolic changes be the extent of it. Like, the people of Minnesota, the victims of these ICE abuses, like the people who are out there protesting and patrolling, they deserve a lot more.

[Melissa Murray]

Yeah.

[Kate Shaw]

And it's important to understand that despite, you know, the rhetoric from the federal shifts, which we've heard much about.

[Leah Littman]

Yeah.

[Kate Shaw]

Things have. It seems very much not changed on the ground in Minnesota. So Vivino is out, but they have not withdrawn the, you know, ICE roving goon squads from the streets of Minnesota. As Melissa just alluded to, they have sent Tom Homan in, in some kind of Weird PR campaign. Like, if that name sort of vaguely rings a bell, this is literally the architect of the family separation program in the first Trump administration. And also, what is the status of. I don't even know whether allegedly the recipient, I guess allegedly the recipient of a kava, like the Fast Casual Cuisine chain kava bag with $50,000 in United States cash in it. Anyway, so that guy is the guy who's being sent in to, I guess, clean up. He gave a press conference announcing that he was now the man in charge. And it made clear that the federal government is still extorting Minnesota through terror and violence and occupation. Here he is saying, yes, this is very much still mob style extortion.

[Tom Homan]

The withdrawal of law enforcement resources here is dependent upon cooperation. Like I said, one agent rests on one bad guy in jail means less agents on the street. We have some agreements. We got more to talk about how we're going to implement these agreements. But as we see that cooperation happen, then the redeployment will happen.

[Leah Littman]

Here he is blaming the federal agent's killing of two civilians on the tone of Minnesota politicians.

[Tom Homan]

I beg for the last two months on TV for the rhetoric to stop. I said in March that the rhetoric didn't stop. There's going to be bloodshed, and there has been. I wish I wasn't right again.

[Leah Littman]

Words aren't violence, except when they're uttered by Democrats, then they're responsible for actual violence. And also, if you don't like people calling you the Gestapo, I mean, the people of Minnesota are out monitoring ICE with whistles and cars, not because Tim Waltz called ICE Nazis. Like, they're doing it because they see how ICE is acting.

[Melissa Murray]

You know what, Leah? Guns don't kill people. Tone kills people.

[Leah Littman]

Right.

[Melissa Murray]

And not to be outdone, I too have my own greatest hits of Tom Homan here. He is referring to Minnesota as a theater, as in theater of war.

[Leah Littman]

Can you please be specific about how.

[Tommy Vietor]

Many ICE and how many Border Patrol agents are currently operating in the state?

[Tom Homan]

I think we're there three. There's been some rotations. Another thing I witnessed when I came here, I'll share this with you. I met with a lot of people. A lot of the agents, they've been in theater. Some of these people have been in theater for eight months.

[Melissa Murray]

Months later, he describes how day after day you can't eat in restaurants and people are blowing whistles at you. Yes, that's how the veterans described their time storming the beaches at Normandy. I could not sit down and have a bouillabaiss People were blowing whistles at me as we landed on the beaches and it was just untenable.

[Leah Littman]

Yeah, there were moms in minivans.

[Kate Shaw]

And in case there were any lingering doubt, Trump has now expressly said that the federal government is not pulling back in Minnesota.

[Melissa Murray]

Trump posted an absolutely disgusting statement about Alex Party on Truth Social that we are not going to repeat. But we will just say that it underscores the absolute callous disregard for life that is coming from the top and that this president is not especially sorry. He's not pivoting and he's not pulling back or changing tune. Although we should note that they have agreed, agreed to investigate Alex Preddy's killing. That is a bit of a walk back from where they were earlier in the week. Although they have not announced who will be doing the investigation. It could just be dhs, which might be like letting the burglar investigate the burglary, but whatever. But for the most part though, they are hewing to the same tune. And in the last week, ICE took into custody two more children from the same Columbia High School heights School that 5 year old Liam Ramos attended. We talked about Liam and his father in our last episode. This time the children apprehended were a second grader and a fifth grader whose mother was detained because there was no one else to care for them. The children had to be delivered to their detained mother. School officials said that the boys cried and asked to hold a nurse's hand when they were walked into the building. One person noted, quote, she was holding both their hands. It's a lot, it's a lot of people in there with guns and weapons and formality and security and mask and I don't know what else to say like that is the reality. Children being walked into detention centers because their parents have been detained.

[Leah Littman]

And while there doesn't seem to be, you know, a pullback of ICE in Minnesota, there has been some change in what's happening in Maine because there was some escalation and surge there and there are now reports at the federal government is pulling back and withdrawing ice. Why? One very real possibility is it's to help Susan Collins reelection campaign, which only serves to underscore just how appalling and vindictive and illegal and what a scandal the deployment is in Minnesota. And it should remind everyone that the solution here can't be every person for themselves. Like ice. Deployments and surges have to end everywhere. It's not a win if they pull back in one place just to terrorize another place the next week.

[Kate Shaw]

And one additional and really chilling piece of reporting has revealed that DHS CBP apparently is maintaining a database of people arrested for interference with DHS or CBP officers. And incredibly, disturbingly, Alex Preddy seems to have been on DHS or CBP's radar. He was in a confrontation with federal agents a week before his death, according to cnn. Friends say, and there's video footage of this encounter, that he was tackled by police officers while protesting their attempt to detain other individuals. The video that has emerged also shows predictions spitting at and kicking ice cars or one ice car, which raises an incredibly disturbing possibility that he was on some kind of target list. We know that they have been threatening and circling around the homes of people who are following and monitoring them from, you know, many, many dispatches from folks on the ground in Minnesota. It's also been captured on video and reported widely. And a memo sent earlier this month to DHS agents in Minneapolis told them to, quote, capture all images, license plates, identifications and general information on hotels, agitators, protesters, et cetera, so we can capture it all in one consolidated form.

[Leah Littman]

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Galentine's Day and Valentine's Day are coming up and around this time of year, it can sometimes feel like everyone else has it all together in their love lives. But really, whether married, dating or single, the truth is most of us are still figuring it out and finding our way. And no matter where you are in your journey, therapy can help you find your way, help you determine what you want, what feels heavy and how you feel. You can take some pressure off yourself. February is full of flowers, candy, stuffed animals and lots of talk about relationships and dating. It should be filled with therapy too. Whether it's for individuals or couples, therapy is an opportunity to identify what's getting in the way and help remove any blockers. It can help you talk about issues that might be difficult to surface. It can help you figure out what you need in your relationship. And BetterHelp therapists will help because Better Help therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the United States. And they'll find a therapist that works for you. BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences and their more than 12 years of experience and industry leading match fulfillment rate means they typically get it right the first time. If you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored RECS. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, Having served over 6 million people globally and it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. Reviews Sign up and get 10% [e-mail] Strict that's betterhelp.com Strict Strict scrutiny is brought to you by Mosh. It's about to be the season of love, so make sure to show your body and your mind some love by checking out this Go to protein snack that satisfies me and helps me live intentionally too. Mosh Bars Mosh, which you may have heard about on Shark Tank, was founded by Maria Shriver and her son Patrick Schwarzenegger with a simple to create a conversation about brain health through food, education and research. Maria's father suffered from Alzheimer's and since then she and Patrick have dedicated themselves to finding ways to help other families dealing with this debilitating disease. MASH joined forces with the world's top scientists and functional nutritionists to go beyond your average protein bar. Each Mach bar is made with ingredients that support brain health like Ashwagandha, Lion's mane, collagen and omega 3s, plus a game changing brain boosting ingredient you won't find in any other bar. MASH is the first and only food brand boosted with Cognizant, a premium nootropic that supplies the brain with a patented form of citicoline. Mach Bars also actually taste great. They come in nine mouthwatering flavors including three new plant based flavors, Chocolate Chip Cookie, Hazelnut Chocolate Chip and Peanut Chocolate Chip. Look, I don't want my brain decomposing to a point where I can't stop talking about wolves. You know what I mean? I want to stay sharp so I try to maintain a brain healthy diet and MASH bars help me do that while staying energized and without having a too heavy snack for the afternoon. If you want to find ways to give back to others and fuel your body and your brain, Mosh bars are the perfect choice for you. Head to moshlife.comstrict to save 20% off plus free shipping on the Bestsellers Trial Pack or the new Plant based trial pack. That's 20% off plus free shipping on either the Best Sellers Trial Pack or the Plant based trial pack at M-O-S-H-L-I-F E.com strict thank you Mosh for sponsoring this episode.

[Melissa Murray]

Some other things going on In Minnesota, the administration managed to piss the out of the Chief Judge of the District of Minnesota, who also happens to be a former law clerk to the great man himself, Antonin Scalia. When you've lost the Scalia clerks, gotta think about it. Chief Judge Schultz, who clerked for the great man when Scalia was on the D.C. circuit, helped prepare prepare Scalia for his SCOTUS confirmation hearings. And he then clerked for Scalia when he served on the Supreme Court. And Judge Schiltz has decided that he's had enough of this BS the administration is shoving down the throats of the federal courts.

[Kate Shaw]

So at the end of last week, he issued an order that told Todd Lyons, the acting director of ice, that he had to appear personally before the judge and show cause why he should not be held in contempt of court. The order arose because the court had ordered the administration to release or provide a bond hearing to one of the people they had arrested and detained. And the admin administration just did not do that. The court wrote, quote, this is one of dozens of court orders with which respondents have failed to comply in recent weeks. The court has been extremely patient, even though the federal government decided to send thousands of agents to Minnesota to detain aliens without making any provision for dealing with the hundreds of habeas petitions and other lawsuits that were sure to result. Unfortunately, though, the violations continue. The court's patience is at an end.

[Leah Littman]

The hearing, unfortunately or fortunately, depending how you look at it, never came to fruition because ICE got its act together and released the petitioner detainee. So in the order canceling the hearing, Judge Schultz wrote, quote, attached to this order is an appendix that identifies 96 court orders that ICE has violated in 74 cases. The extent of ICE's non compliance is almost certainly substantially understated. ICE has likely violated more court orders in January 2026 than some federal agencies have violated in their entire existence. ICE is not a law unto itself.

[Melissa Murray]

But that's not the only way that Crispy Noem and her henchmen have managed to tick off one of the great man, Antonin Scott Scalia's former law clerks who is now a judge. They also gave him the middle finger when they attempted to give him the runaround in their effort to indict more people who participated in a demonstration at the St. Paul Church where one of the pastors is the head of the St. Paul Ice Field office. As we discussed in our last episode, DOJ failed to obtain arrest warrants from a magistrate judge. The judge rejected their applications on the ground that there wasn't probable cause that some of the people that they were trying to indict, including journalist Don Lemon and his videographer, had committed any crimes. More on that in a second.

[Leah Littman]

As Judge Schultz details in a letter to the a circuit, the U.S. attorney notified him, apparently minutes after the magistrate judge's ruling, that they wanted a district judge to review the magistrate's determination. Just as an FYI, magistrate judges are judges who aren't appointed through Senate confirmation. They're actually selected by judges on the district and serve only terms and have more limited dockets. Anyways. Judge Schultz wrote that after speaking to all of the district judges and chief judges elsewhere in the A Circuit, apparently the government has never asked a district court to review a magistrate judge's decision to deny an arrest warrant. Our friend Steve Vladic has a great write up of this incident at 1 First Street. We're just going to give you some of the highlights or lowlights.

[Kate Shaw]

But Chief Judge Schultz indulged the government and said he wanted to consult the rest of the court and wanted to see a brief. But then he had to postpone the meeting with the court because security concerns created by the presence of both the Vice President of the United States and the Attorney General of the United States in Minneapolis compelled him to delay.

[Leah Littman]

And DOJ decided to go behind his back and file a sealed emergency petition for mandamus in the 8th Circuit, claiming the case presented a national security emergency. Schiltz found out about this and he decided the administration had fucked around enough and it was time for people to find out about it. So he sent one letter where he was trying to guess what the mandamus petition was about because they never even served him with it. So, you know, he described why, you know, the people the government was trying to indict had not committed any crime. And the ACE circuit denied the petition for Mandamus, but with a concurrence from one judge, a Trump appointee, who suggested there actually was probable cause to issue the arrest warrants or an arrest warrant, but still not enough to issue the writ of mandamus.

[Kate Shaw]

That, unfortunately, was not the last word. On Friday morning, we learned that federal agents arrested journalists Don Lemon and Georgia Fort for their coverage of the protest at the St. Paul Church against ICE. This is another escalation and a terrifying one. They are arresting journalists who cover protests, protests for covering protests. I mean, this feels like the next stage in the construction of a genuine police state. The last month have seen just an incredible ratcheting up of what was already a pretty terrifying set of assertions of unprecedented authorities by the president and the administration. And we are in, I think, a timeline that is the worst possible version of what a Trump 2.0 could look like. And we always knew there was a chance they would start going after journalists. And, you know, this is them breaking, I think, incredibly dangerous new ground.

[Leah Littman]

Yeah. And even when these people are inevitably released, you know, whether that is because a judge says there isn't probable cause, whether that is because there isn't an indictment, whether that is because, you know, a judge directs the dismissal of the charges, it's clear this is done as an effort to just deter other journalists. Right. To make them scared about undergoing. Right. The hardships that, you know, Georgia and Don are undergoing right now. Yeah.

[Melissa Murray]

Let's maybe end this on a lighter note. All of this sturmon drawing surrounding Chief Judge Schultz has apparently led to a couple of meltdowns within the administration. So Trisha McLaughlin, a spokeswoman for DHS, dismissed the judge's concerns about ICE's violations. She characterized them as, quote, a diatribe from this activist activist Judge Justice Scalia would like a word from heaven. And then she went on to say, quote, we will not be deterred by activists either in the streets or on the bench. Okay, then. Not to be outdone, our assistant Attorney General of civil rights and civil wrongs, Harmeet Dhillon, decided to have her own bite at the apple again. Again, we've said in the past that Harmeet Dhillon is willing to bring the noise to fellow conservatives who have critiques of this administration. She is already denounced as hoes conservative bros who don't think the administration is doing enough to advance its agenda. And last week she decided that she was going to take her campaign to Ed Whelan, one of the most conservative right wing lawyer commentators in the the biz. Whan, like Chief Judge Schultz, is also a former law clerk to Justice Scalia. So he is no liberal squish. People in the administration and those who are friendly to the administration have all begun to insist that Judge Schultz should recuse from this case because he donated to Legal Services Association. So these are organizations that provide representation to individuals who are indigent, including in in immigration matters. FYI, the rules do not require judges to accuse when they support legal aid organizations and the representation of individuals who can't afford lawyers. But that did not stop Harmeet Dhillon from weighing in. So we will recount the exchange for you.

[Leah Littman]

So she retweeted a statement by Ed Whalen that suggested the judge didn't have to recuse by saying, ed, do you have any clients? Do you actually practice law in court? Support, all caps? Serious question.

[Melissa Murray]

And then Ed responded, do you know what a non sequitur is? I can't even conceive how your question has any bearing on the official ethics advice that I quoted. To answer your question, I have spent the last two decades promoting originalism and textualism. Sidebar can confirm working to transform the courts. Also can confirm and promoting blah blah blah. Show more, says Twitter.

[Leah Littman]

To which Harmeet responds, I majored in Ancient Greek and Latin at Dartmouth. Your pretentiousness merely underscores your utter lack of street cred.

[Melissa Murray]

To which Waylon responded, are you drunk when she has me out in these streets cheering for Ed Whelan what I know like where are we? Who am I?

[Leah Littman]

The times, they are bleak the times.

[Kate Shaw]

They are bleak so with that roundup of the news from Minnesota, it is time to turn to Donald the Dove's peacemaking around the globe.

[Leah Littman]

Strict scrutiny is brought to you by Sundays for Dogs I am obsessed with my dog. You know it and I like feeding her real fresh food. But here's the thing. She's part poodle and they're at risk for dental problems and actually needs some crunchy food too. So I'm always in the market for crunchy food that's also fresh and healthy. And that's why Stevie gets some sundaes for for dogs. Sundaes was founded by a veterinarian and mom, Dr. Tori Waxman who got tired of seeing so called premium dog food full of fillers and synthetics. So she designed sundaes air dried real food made in a human grade kitchen using the same ingredients and care you'd use to cook for yourself and your family. Every bite of sundaes is clean and made from 100% meat and superfoods with no kibble. That means no weird ingredients you can't pronounce and no fillers. Compared to Kibble or other brands out there, Sundaes invests 50 times more in its ingredients to ensure premium quality quality. Because your dog deserves food made with care, not in the interest of cost cutting. And the best part? You just scoop and serve. No freezer, no thawing or prep. No mess. Just nutrient rich clean food that fuels their happiest, healthiest days so you get more of them to share together. I like to put Stevie Sunday for Dogs in her Kibble toys like puzzle toys. That way she doesn't devour it all in one go as she's inclined to do because it's delicious and she gets to play too. And even though we're in the polar vortex here in the Midwest, Stevie's been able to keep her energy level levels high with Sundays for Dogs. Make the switch to Sundays. Go right now to sundaysfordogs.com Strict 30 and get 30% off your first three orders. Or you can use code Strict30 at checkout. That's 30% off your first three orders at sundaysfordogs.com strict30 Sundaysfordogs.com Strict 30 or use code Strict 30 at checkout. Strict Scrutiny is brought to you by CookUnity. What's my favorite comfort food in the heart of winter? Winter? That's hard, but it's probably a soup. Either khao soi or there's this roasted carrot soup with chickpeas I'm kind of obsessed with. But making those things, ugh, takes too much time, which is why I love being able to rely on cookunity, which makes it easy to enjoy meaningful chef crafted food without the extra effort. Check out CookUnity's February memos where you'll discover how chefs are redefining seasonal eating through food that nourishes, fuels and inspires. Here's some of what I've been enjoying on cookunity in the dead course of winter Miriam Milord's Ghanaian Chicken Peanut Stew with Sweet potatoes and rice. It's hearty and comforting and exactly what I want on these frigid it's cozy with a little spice and filling without being heavy. I think I really crave spice and comfort food in the winter, so I'm also really enjoying Nahika Hillary's Jackfruit Stuffed Poblano Peppers with Avocado Crema. I got my protein with all the beans and warmth and spice and I love being able to have all of these many different dishes using many different spice and flavor profiles at the tip of my fingers. Because winter is definitely the season, I do not feel like putting in the effort to make my own varied meals and cookunity meals take mere minutes to warm up and I can do a lot of them in a microwave so they make for great work lunches. Cooking quality meals takes time, but it doesn't have to be your time. No cleanup or meal planning, no cooking, shopping or thinking about how to get the nutrition and comfort meals you need every week. All with cookunity taste, comfort and craftsmanship in every bite. From the award winning chefs behind CookUnity. Go to cookunity.com strict or enter code STRICT before checkout to get 50% off your first purchase order. That's 50% off your first order by using code strict or going to cookunity.comstrict. Now we will shift to the Trump administration's decision to maybe occupy the entire world. And for this conversation, we are delighted to be joined by Crooked Media's foreign policy expert and co host of Pod Save the World, our producer Michael's side hustle, Tommy Vitor. Welcome to the show, Tommy.

[Tommy Vietor]

Longtime listener, first time caller. Thank you for, thank you for having me.

[Melissa Murray]

Well, we are very glad to have you today, Tommy. So let's start by replaying this little tidbit from an interview that President Trump did with the New York Times. Do you see any checks on your power on the world stage? Is there anything that could stop you.

[Leah Littman]

If you wanted to? Yeah, there's one thing. My own morality, my own mind. It's the only thing that can stop. And, and that's very good. I don't need international law.

[Melissa Murray]

So, Tommy, just a question. How is this morality thing as a restraint on government working out for us?

[Tommy Vietor]

I think it's going great. I think it's moral to murder people in boats in the Caribbean. I think it's moral to kidnap head to state. I think it's moral to bomb Nigeria on Christmas Day based on what seems to be totally made up evidence of a Christian genocide. It's moral to lock out all refugees except, except for white South Africans. I'll stop there, but I think it's going really well.

[Leah Littman]

Okay, so that was uplifting. There has also been not just talk of morality, but also the so called Dun Row doctrine, which is honestly one of the dumbest and most pathetic wordplays I've ever encountered. Whoever came up with this and then decided to try to make it a thing is an enemy of the English language. But the doctrine, as far as I can tell, is billed as a 21st century update makeover of President James Monroe's designation of the Western hemisphere as America's sphere of interest. Now put aside the inconvenient fact that some of what you rattled off has been Trump meddling outside of this hemisphere, you know, including in Nigeria, but also Syria and Yemen. What does the world look like if the US Owns air quote, the Americas and leaves the rest of the world to be carved up by other great powers.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah, it's very weird. Like the original Monroe Doctrine was like, okay, you guys, stay the hell out of the west. Western hemisphere will stay the hell out of Europe. And so what I, what I would my first reaction to, like, the Don Row doctrine is. The wordplay is horrendous, as you said. The second one.

[Leah Littman]

Thank you.

[Tommy Vietor]

The second was these brass tacks. Like, it makes the United States weaker because we view ourselves as a global superpower. We have tens of thousands of troops in Germany. We've got troops in Italy and other parts of Europe. Does the Donro doctrine mean that we now take them home and we cede all that territory to the Russian to kind of just do whatever they want? Like, we got 50,000 troops in Japan, 28,500 in South Korea. Do they come home? And that means we're no longer a Pacific power and we just cede that territory to China. Like, what does it mean for Taiwan? So there's a lot of questions, but it. It's just not clear to me, like, whether Trump is kind of giving up on being a Pacific superpower or not at this point.

[Kate Shaw]

So you're saying they maybe didn't think Pete had. Seth worked it all out?

[Leah Littman]

Yeah, Pete, Pete.

[Tommy Vietor]

Pete has gone through, like, apparently they just released a national defense strategy. They sent an email on a Friday night in the middle of that snowstorm. So that's how seriously they took.

[Leah Littman]

This was not over signal. Okay, that's.

[Tommy Vietor]

No, no. Yeah.

[Kate Shaw]

Okay. So leaving to the side some of the open questions and sort of zeroing in on this alleged, again, scare quotes, sphere of influence. It is wild to us that Trump's invasion of Venezuela and kidnapping of its president, Nicolas Maduro, and his wife, Celia Flores, as almost feels like old news. That is, I guess, 2026.

[Leah Littman]

It was a month ago.

[Kate Shaw]

It was an entirely different calendar year. So page has turned. But we did want to ask about, because we refused to let this story go quietly into the rearview mirror, what message this Venezuela operation sends to strongmen around the world. Right. Does Trump's blatant disregard of national sovereignty legitimize Putin's war on Ukraine emboldened China when it comes to Taiwan? And just in terms of kind of our ongoing involvement in Venezuela, this is something that you follow really closely. Like, am I right that there seems maybe to be a slush fund with seized oil revenue in a bank account in Qatar?

[Leah Littman]

What is that account?

[Kate Shaw]

Who has, like, the access passwords? And is this just an easy way around Congress actually having the old power of the purpose? Like, what is going on?

[Tommy Vietor]

I share all of your questions about this Qatari fund with, like, hundreds of millions, billions of dollars into, like, what. What is happening here? Can the United States government just, like, open a Venmo? Is that what's happening?

[Melissa Murray]

First, you take the Qatari jet and you fly the seized money to Qatar, then you deposit it.

[Tommy Vietor]

It's so crazy. And Marco Rubio is at that hearing talking about it like it's normal. I was like, no, no, we'll figure out what to do with the other 200 billion. Everyone just chill out. It's like, it's nuts. To your actual question, though, like, yeah, I really wonder what it means for Xi Jinping and Taiwan. Like, Xi Jinping is leading this gigantic military purge. He just fired the top general. Seems like maybe part of the reason is he doesn't feel like the PLA is getting ready fast enough to take Taiwan. So, coming attraction, I think it, you know, certainly it could embolden Putin in Ukraine, though. He's pretty emboldened there. But you could also imagine a scenario where there's some other leader in a country smaller that sort of, you know, is around Russia, and Putin one day decides to pluck that individual up and replace him or her with a new prime minister or president and say, what? You did it? What's the problem? There's this crazy thing that happened in 2017 that no one ever talks about, that I just, like, can't get my. Can't get out of my head, which was Saad Hariri, the Prime minister of Lebanon, took a trip to Saudi Arabia, Arabia, and then all of a sudden, he did a video feed where he announced that he was resigning, like, clearly under duress. So Mohammed bin Salman just kidnapped the guy. Then they made him script this thing. And so, like, the French freaked out. Like, a man in Macron got involved. I'm sure the Trump 1.0 kind of, you know, put some pressure on MBS to reverse this, and so he did. But, like, what if the US Government just doesn't care?

[Kate Shaw]

I don't think.

[Tommy Vietor]

I think that story ends very differently. So, yeah, like, we're emboldening. Kidnapping of heads of state. I think that's probably.

[Leah Littman]

Oh, my God.

[Melissa Murray]

Not just kidnapping heads of state actually taking territory. So that seems like a good place to talk about Greenland, which we haven't had the chance to talk about yet. Trump seems to have walked back his threat to use force to seize Greenland. He announced, coming out of Davos that he'd agreed to a framework of a future deal, which sounds like concepts of a plan, but. But just how much damage has already been done to the NATO alliance, Tommy, by threatening another country in the alliance? Greenland is a semi autonomous Danish territory. The Danes seem to be a little troubled by all of this. And Trump just seems to be like, there's something rotten in the state of Denmark. And no, I know he's never read Hamlet.

[Tommy Vietor]

No, he's never read anything. Yeah, I think. I think he did incalculable damage to NATO. I think they already thought we were unreliable, but this is probably the nail in the coffin on top of it. I don't know if you guys caught this. Like, he was doing an interview with Maria Bartiromo kind of on the way out of Davos, and he said something like, NATO never really helped us out. They didn't actually, like, they may have deployed to Afghanistan, but they didn't really do any of the fighting, which is just, like, insanely wrong. The Brits lost like, 450 men and women and in combat. I think the Danes per capita lost as many individuals as the US Did. So, like, he offended every veteran across the NATO alliance because it was just so gross. And so I don't think NATO goes away tomorrow because the United States is just so core to its existence. Like, I think we're like 60% of the funding we provide the nuclear deterrence, the majority of the, like, logistical infrastructure that you need to fight a war. ISR asked. Surveillance and intelligence assets, missile defense. The top NATO commander is usually an American commander. There's like a command post in the US like the second biggest one. So, like, we are still integral to the, the broader enterprise, but I just worry that they're moving on. And like, you know, Trump brags about how he's like, pushing the Germans to spend more and more on defense, but we never really talk about whether that's a good idea when you also looked at, like, The Dionazi Age AfD party is like, maybe going to come to power and we're like, pushing to remilitarize the Germans and the Japanese. So I don't know, the whole thing feels very unsettling.

[Leah Littman]

So my anxiety levels are getting higher and higher, and they were already quite high because, of course, we are anxiously awaiting the court's ruling in Learning Resources versus Trump, which will decide whether Trump has the authority to impose tariffs using the International Emergency Economic Powers Act. Stay tuned for a bonus episode when we ever get that opinion. TikTok, guys, it seems like Trump's tariffs serve a few purposes, like some as punishment for not towing the line in the case of Brazil. Maybe his bargaining chips for his own personal enrichment, like in the case of Vietnam, and also a very expensive game of chicken with China. So as someone who tracks this stuff every week on your show, can you make any sense of Trump's trade strategy and where, if at all, do the penguins fit into it?

[Tommy Vietor]

I love the penguins. Those little monsters. Monsters, yeah. It's tariff first, ask questions later. Right? I mean, I think you're referencing what was it called, the herd and McDonald Islands, which is like, I think a two week boat ride from the further furthest west point of Australia. And it's like glaciers and penguins and we just tariff them like 10%. The takeaways. I've, I've. So it's hard to like track the tariffs because so many get announced and then not applied. So you're like looking for this major economic, economic impact, but it's less. So you wonder like, oh, are the economists wrong? It's like, actually no, he's just not implementing these things. The main takeaway for me is they are a way for him to bully medium sized and small sized countries. A lot more tariffs get announced to get implemented. But again, like, they can be devastating. If you're Canada, for example, because 75% of Canadian exports go to the U.S. if we suddenly, you know, make them twice as expensive, like their economy could be crushed. They were devastating for, remember Lesotho, the tiny little landlocked country, like 2 million people in South Africa, they got a 50% tariff and it was like about to just, just crush every industry they had. I think it got walked back to 10%. But again it's like, what are we doing here? So, but that said, like, when it comes to China, the, the tariffs are still very high and we're all paying the price for that. But they're not the like Liberation Day exhortation orbit level similar for Europe. Like, I think Trump backed down from the Greenland threat in part because Europe was preparing two things like one big tariffs. And then they have this thing called the, the anti coercion tool which basically lets them cut an entire country off from the European market. And like they have, it's like the us, China and then the EU in terms of like economic heft that can, they could put a cost in place. So it's madness. It's just whatever it is at us.

[Leah Littman]

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[Kate Shaw]

So you make you mentioned Canada in that answer and sort of speaking of Canada and medium sized countries. As you discussed at length on Pod Save the World a couple of weeks ago, Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney gave a pretty extraordinary and extraordinarily honest speech about global power Leah listed as one of her favorite things that week. So let's remind our listeners of it with a small clip.

[Tommy Vietor]

We knew the story of the international rules based order was partially false, that the strongest would exempt themselves when confused, convenient that trade rules were enforced asymmetrically. And we knew that international law applied with varying rigor depending on the identity of the accused or the victim. We participated in the rituals and we largely avoided calling out the gaps between rhetoric and reality. This bargain no longer works. Let me be direct. We are in the midst of a rupture, not a transition.

[Kate Shaw]

And you know, Carney said a lot of other things in that speech, including nostalgia is not a strategy. If you haven't listened to or read the speech in its entirety. It's just really packs a punch. So highly encourage our listeners to do that. But Tommy, as we look ahead to a time because we like to, you know, trade in a degree of optimism and hope here when we have a Democrat back in power. I mean, this is a big question, but like what kind of new world order and what is America's place in it that you hope to see?

[Tommy Vietor]

That is a big, A good question. You know, Ben and I got in trouble on Pod Save the World because initially we didn't focus on Carney's speech. We just excerpted a clip of it and a clip of Emmanuel Macron speech. And I'd only listened to it, I hadn't watched it and I didn't realize he was wearing like blue blocker sunglasses. And I started giggling so hard. And you know when you're giggling and your friend starts giggling and you know you're not supposed to like laugh and you're trying not to laugh and we both just lost our shit and started crying and we got in trouble in the comments. But we're not mad at you. So we came, we came back to Carney. It was so funny. It was so funny. So I think a few things, like one, you know, Trump, like, obviously Elon Musk took ketamine and destroyed usaid. I think we need to think about building back a new version of what USAID looks like that isn't just, you know, fighting for the same thing, but what is the smarter, more targeted version? I think we need to like reinvigorate all these international institutions and organizations that we're kind of letting die. Like NATO is one should fund the World Health Organization. That seems like a good idea. We should disband this stupid board of Peace bullshit and recommit to working through the United nations, you know, even when it's very inconvenient for us. And also think about reforms to make it so the Security Council isn't just a broken mess. And then, you know, I think whoever the next Secretary of State is is just going to be on the road, like try to do diplomatic spade work. Congress hopefully could pass some laws that limit the power of the executive. That makes us seem maybe long term more reliable. But, you know, we got a lot of work to do.

[Leah Littman]

So. Finally, Tommy, something of a lightning round. Can you do us and our listeners a solid and put to bed once and for all Trump's constantly repeated claim that he has ended eight wars and.

[Melissa Murray]

Therefore deserves the Nobel Peace Prize.

[Leah Littman]

We'll make it easy and like, we'll list the alleged wars he has ended and then you can tell us how the whole world peace thing is going on in these cases, if that works. Israel and Hamas.

[Tommy Vietor]

So I give him credit for getting that ceasefire done, but we should, folks should just know that like there's a ceasefire in name only at this point because the Gaza Health Ministry says, I think 480 plus Palestinians have been killed by the IDF since the ceasefire went into place on October, whenever it was last year. And Hamas is not disarmed. So it's like work in progress.

[Leah Littman]

I'd say Israel and Iran.

[Tommy Vietor]

So you might recall we bombed them too.

[Melissa Murray]

Not really peaceful.

[Tommy Vietor]

Not peaceful, not so PC. And now Trump is like, as we speak, it's Friday at like what, noon Pacific. We are sending an armada, as Trump said, to the Middle east to potentially bomb them again. So another work in progress.

[Leah Littman]

I'd say Armenia and Azerbaijan.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yes, or Albania is what Trump sometimes says. He likes to get it wrong.

[Melissa Murray]

Very easy to confuse them.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah, he just, you know, it's easy to confuse him. Those two countries fought for about 40 years over a disputed part of territory called the Nagorno Karabakh. In August of 2025, they announced this peace agreement, I think at the White House or with Trump. In some way, I think you get some credit for putting the two sides together. But in reality what happened is Azerbaijan pretty much routed the Armenian side in part because they got a bunch of drones from the Turks and the Israelis. So sure, like the war is ended, but it was because one side lost.

[Leah Littman]

The Democratic Republic of the Congo and Rwanda.

[Tommy Vietor]

Another one where Trump has held a bunch of events like, good, good, good on him for caring. Like, I'm glad he's sort of cares about these things, though in practice they turn out to be like ways to provide deals to extract mineral resources in the most disgusting way possible. But he held an event with like a leaders from the DRC in Rwanda. But the problem is in this conflict, the, the primary driver is a group called the M23, which is like a rebel group that is not a party to the conversations, does not, not do not accept the deal. And my understanding is despite this announcement in the paper of an agreement like there's fighting all the time, every day, indiscriminate killing of civilians. So it's just, it's, there's not a, there's no peace. India and Pakistan, another, another long standing beef here. This one, this one goes back a while. Yeah, you know, when we started like partition, I don't know. They've been fighting over the disputed cash Kashmir region since the 40s. Don't like each other. Treated as mortal enemies in the press and by the militaries. There was a really bad clash last year because there was a terrorist attack in Kashmir that killed a bunch of Indian tourists. The Indian government blamed the Pakistanis who historically have supported and kind of harbored terrorist groups like the Taliban or TTP and others. And so it was really scary. It got really intense for a few days. There was, you know, intense bombing deep into their territories. Trump says he was instrumental in brokering a cease fire. The Indian government says that is entirely bullshit. And the Pakistanis were like, yeah, sure, you did it. You'd like, you know, trying to do a favor to Trump. But it's kind of led to a rift between Trump and Modi in the US And India. But bigger picture, like none of the underlying problems are resolved. So it's like, sure, they're not fighting now, but nothing is fixed for the, the future.

[Leah Littman]

Cambodia and Thailand, it's another similar one.

[Tommy Vietor]

Like long standing border dispute that dates back to poorly drawn colonial boundaries. There's been sporadic fighting for, you know, a century. Last summer again, there was a really bad kind of spate of fighting over, you know, it's like there's like a cultural sites like a temple that both sides claim. Trump tweeted about. He, he put sanctions on both sides. He got them to sign a peace agreement. But my understanding is that as of this recording, like there are still kind of sporadic clashes and again, like the underlying challenges are not resolved.

[Melissa Murray]

Sporadic clashes don't seem conducive to peace.

[Tommy Vietor]

Just say, and that's the thing, like they just love to spike the ball on the 50 yard line. It's like, you know, the peace prizes usually come from, you know, like, if you actually created Middle east peace, like a Palestinian state, something that resolved the underlying political challenges that are drivers of conflict.

[Leah Littman]

Okay, so last two, Egypt and Ethiopia and Serbia and Kosovo.

[Tommy Vietor]

Egypt and Ethiopia is my favorite one because there never was a war. There's. There's an ongoing diplomatic dispute.

[Melissa Murray]

Really easy to broker peace when there's no war.

[Tommy Vietor]

You feel so crazy saying this to people because, like, no, okay, so they have a. They have a diplomatic dispute over hydroelectric dam on the Nile river, which is important to both for water access and power production reasons that still exists. But there was no, like, war to stop. He just says he prevented one. So it's like pre crime. So. And then Serbia and Kosovo. So, you know, you guys might recall lots of fighting in the Balkans in the 90s, breakup of the Soviet Union. Turns out some complexities there. After that, there's tensions. Like Kosovo declared independence in 2008. The Serbs don't recognize it, but there hasn't been a war. There's another one. Was like, there wasn't a war for you to solve, sir. There was an economic agreement that Trump brokered between the two sides in 2020 that I don't even know if it's been implemented. So it's like, again, like, what are you talking about?

[Melissa Murray]

This kind of war to. To fix a war that didn't exist.

[Leah Littman]

He's so good. He prevented a war from ever happening.

[Tommy Vietor]

He's just that good.

[Leah Littman]

Crazy. Amazing.

[Kate Shaw]

So, I mean, the kind of fact download per minute ratio there was incredibly high, Tommy.

[Tommy Vietor]

So, hey, we try here.

[Leah Littman]

Yeah.

[Kate Shaw]

And I mean, we are really not foreign policy experts. And, you know, flooding the zone, as they have done on the domestic front works. And so we've been very concerned with what they are doing domestically and haven't really attended a foreign policy. And so we are very, very grateful to you for taking the time to join us for this conversation. You are a real expert and we and our listeners are grateful. So thank you so much for being with us.

[Tommy Vietor]

Thank you for having me. Thank you for putting out a great show. I love. I especially like the episodes where I get most of it because I, I do feel like. I do feel like sometimes I'm in class and I'm just. I. I needed the, like the 201 or the 101.

[Kate Shaw]

We need to. We need to leave a few things just out of reach to keep people coming.

[Tommy Vietor]

No, no.

[Melissa Murray]

So.

[Kate Shaw]

All right, well.

[Tommy Vietor]

I want to be smart.

[Melissa Murray]

All right, well, keep training. Keep training, Tommy.

[Kate Shaw]

We so appreciate you listening and we would love to have you back another time. And while we have you, we have to ask you to tell us that you are going to have Melissa on the pod to discuss Meghan Markle and or the British Royal family at some point when it is a germane topic of conversation, because anytime, always, it's your main topic. When is it not? I suppose, but all right.

[Melissa Murray]

Not a germane topic.

[Tommy Vietor]

Trump apologized for this NATO insult, I think because he got a call from the King. And my, my wonder is what did the king say? Hey, you know that your 250th birthday bullshit you want me to come to this summer? I ain't coming if you insult our dead troops. I sincerely think that happened. And also Prince Harry of Montessori weighed in too, so.

[Kate Shaw]

All right, see, this is something you could have had Melissa shed some light on. All right, next time.

[Tommy Vietor]

I'm sorry.

[Kate Shaw]

And, and before we go, special thanks to our producer Michael Goldsmith for his help putting together this segment.

[Leah Littman]

That was a great conversation. And now we just have a little bit more legal news to touch on. After our recording, the Department of Justice released another tranche of Epstein files just as grotesque as the last, confirming again the extent to which alleged elites in really all circles were just totally cool with Jeffrey Epstein and joked with him about girls and women, even after Epstein had pled guilty to solicitation and procuring a minor for prostitution. Some notables from this batch include Melania's close relationship with Ghislaine Maxwell. I understand this probably wasn't covered in Melania's documentary though. Wouldn't know. Elon Musk lobbying for an invite to Epstein island, asking, quote, what day, night will be the wildest party on your island. Question. And telling Epstein that the, quote, ratio seemingly of girls and women to men wouldn't be a problem for Elon's then wife. Also, Elon is tweeting through this. There is a ton of disturbing info in this latest batch. A draft indictment that included conspirators, co conspirators, unnamed, deeply disturbing accounts and allegations of sexual assault. Further tips about Trump's relationship with Epstein and alleged knowledge of Epstein's abusive girls. Notes from witness interviews that mentioned Trump and Bannon Epstein and a Giants co owner email about setting up the Giants co owner with women. Just truly grotesque stuff. Oh, and there is a SCOTUS hook. Trump's new nominee to be a governor of the Federal Reserve Board, Kevin Warsh. He's in the Epstein files. I'm sure Trump will withdraw his nomination since Trump is so concerned about law abidingness in his governors of the Fed. But here's the legal news update we had in our regularly recorded episode.

[Melissa Murray]

Last week, FBI agents executed a search warrant that targeted the Fulton County Georgia Elections Department. Now, if you're thinking, thinking, hmm, wait. Fulton county elections. That sounds familiar. It should. That's one of the places where during the 2020 election, the President attempted to gin up baseless claims of voter fraud to throw out the results of the 2020 election and remain in office. Georgia is the state where he asked the Republican Secretary of State, Brad Raffensperger to find him a few extra thousand votes. All of the claims and allegations of voter fraud that the administration offered have been thoroughly debunked and refuted. That has to be said over and over and over again, apparently.

[Kate Shaw]

And this is really very scary. It seems designed in part to sow more distrust in our election systems. This primes Trump's base to accept claims that he won the election, which could trigger more violence like January 6th. It also seems like an escalation in a forward looking, as opposed to just backward looking way that is escalation of threats to tamper and interfere with the midterms and potentially the 2020 presidential election through abusive exercises of law enforcement authority and maybe as a test run for interfering with elections in the midterms later this year. Either way, it's an enormous concern.

[Leah Littman]

And apparently the crackerjack who has been leading this is Tulsi Gabbard, the Director of National Intelligence and maybe, possibly, I don't know, some people say a Russian asset. Anyway, she was given the task of leading the administration's efforts to reexamine the 2020 election and look for potential crimes. Another true story of failing up to fuck up our democracy. Just the tip. And speaking of tips, this is your reminder that you can experience a strict scrutiny live show on the beautiful West Coast, Best coast. So our San Francisco show is already sold out, but you can still join us in Los Angeles on March 7 at the Palace Theater. The show is going to be amazing, will be wild.

[Melissa Murray]

You may have heard that before.

[Leah Littman]

We are crafting some very special merch, some special games. We've got some special guests in the works. It is going to be a very good time. So grab your tickets before they're [e-mail] events. And now before we go, our favorite things. If you haven't heard it, Bruce Springsteen released a song, streets of Minneapolis. I am not going to recite the lyrics because I will cry if I do I feel like I'm just a raw nerve edge these days with all the news. I will just say if someone made a song about or if Bruce Springsteen specifically made a song about my dirty lies like he did with Kristi Noem and Stephen Miller, I would yeet myself into the sun. Only I couldn't because I would have already spontaneously combusted due to shame. A few other pieces ta Nehisi Coates, the Homeland is War in America, Peace and Vanity Fair, as well as Adam Serwer's piece in the Atlantic, Minnesota proved MAGA wrong. Also wanted to shout out Mr. Kate Shaw, aka Chris Hayes reporting from the Minnesota Ride Alongs. I just think it's super important for people to understand like the day to day in Minnesota and just how wild it is and how much it has upended people's lives.

[Kate Shaw]

Yeah, I'm really glad he went for a couple days. He's back now. He did the first show. He was out there outside like not really warmly dressed enough and I honestly thought he was gonna lose a couple toes which, which you know, he would do if called upon. But luckily he seems pretty intact. But I'm glad you appreciate the coverage, Leah. Okay, let me shout out a few things. I thought Steve Vladek and Barry Friedman in the Times had a really good piece about the potential for state prosecutions even if the federal government is not going to do anything. Although as Melissa mentioned, there is evidently now a investigation that the federal government has agreed to open over the killing of Preddy. But you know, state prosecutions remain something that should be on the table. My old colleague and friend Alex Reinert was on Dolly Lithwick show Amicus talking about bivins and qualified immunity and it was a great conversation that I really recommend to people. Also, Melissa and I sorry Leah, I wish you were you had been there. But Melissa and I had an awesome conversation with Jonathan Van Ness JVN on the Getting Better podcast and JVN gave us a bunch of awesome hair care products. Leah, I still need to send you yours, but that's like awesome. Some dry shampoo and various kinds of creams and stuff. And this week I actually had another, I think really good escapist read. I read migrations by Charlotte McGonaghe, who's the same author of Wild Dark Shore, which Leah, you recommended to me. It's a, it's a book that's similar in lots of ways and I also really enjoyed so Migrations highly recommend it.

[Melissa Murray]

Okay, I'm just telling you right now that I'm not doing anything highbrow until all this stuff is resolved in Minnesota, until it stops being in single digit temperatures in New York City, and until they start clearing the snow so I don't have to vault over mountains of ice as I try to cross the street. So there's nothing high brow in this. I'm not reading newspapers, I'm not reading the Atlantic, I'm not reading pro Biblical. I'm just looking at trash on TV and reading for fun. So here are my favorite things and they include his and hers on Netflix. I love Tessa Thompson, I love John Bernthal, and I love them together as a married couple and trying to get through a difficult patch in their marriage while also solving a crime. What could be better? Amazing. I'm also very excited for something I have not yet seen, but I'm very much anticipated and that is the America's Next Top Model documentary that is going to be coming out on Netflix. And in honor of MLK Day, which was a few weeks back, I started reading King of the North, Martin Luther King Jr. S life of Struggle Outside of the south by Jean Theoharis. And I just finished it. It's absolutely fantastic. It's really great. Again, locates MLK in the broader struggle for social justice, which includes economic justice as well. I guess that was a little highbrow.

[Leah Littman]

Yeah, definitely.

[Melissa Murray]

I mean, I'm just like, I don't want, I'm so tired of newspapers at this point. I just, just, I can't.

[Leah Littman]

It's fair.

[Kate Shaw]

Strict Scrutiny is a crooked media production hosted and executive produced by Leah Lippman, Melissa Murray and me, Kate Shaw. Our senior producer and editor is Melody Rowell. Michael Goldsmith is our producer. Jordan Thomas is our intern. Music by Eddie Cooper. Production support from Katie Long and Adrienne Hill. Matt De Groat is our head of production. Thanks to our video team, Ben Hethcote and Johanna Case. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. If you if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe to Strict Scrutiny in your favorite podcast app and on YouTube. Strict Scrutiny Podcast so you never miss an episode. And if you want to help other people find the show, please rate and review us. It really helps.