Is Sam Alito On His Way Out?

Summary

Strict Scrutiny S7 Ep19: Is Sam Alito On His Way Out?

Date: February 16, 2026
Hosts: Melissa Murray, Kate Shaw, Leah Litman

---

Overview

In this packed, irreverent, and insightful episode, the hosts of Strict Scrutiny dive deep into recent rumors and signals suggesting that Justice Samuel Alito may soon retire from the Supreme Court. They conduct a “lightning round” of possible conservative replacements, analyze rapidly moving developments on the legal front—from dramatic immigration policy changes and activist court rulings to wild scenes in congressional oversight—and slice through the dense tangle of right-wing legal/cultural maneuvers threatening constitutional and social norms. As always, the episode is a blend of rigorous legal analysis and sharp, sometimes punchy, cultural commentary.

---

Main Theme

• Is Justice Sam Alito about to retire from SCOTUS? The hosts unpack the latest clues, speculate on the implications, and preview the “America’s Next Top Justice” contest, while also connecting the dots to the current political landscape (especially GOP woes leading into the midterms).

• Broader Focus: The episode then pivots to a sweep of news: legal and constitutional resistance to the Trump administration’s immigration crackdowns, judicial pushback on executive overreach, scandal and dysfunction in Congress (with an Epstein/Real Housewives flavor), right-wing legal attacks on climate and diversity, and favorite things in culture and politics.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Case of the (Possibly) Retiring Justice Alito (04:12)

• Clues Alito might depart:
  • Celebrated 20 years on the Court—a “good milestone on which to retire.” (Melissa Murray, 04:12)
  • Republican prospects in the upcoming midterms look poor. If the Senate flips, confirming a right-wing successor becomes far harder.
  • Alito likely wants a like-minded successor, so timing matters.
  • His new book slated for release during a busy term—odd for a sitting justice who'd want time to promote it. (Melissa Murray, 05:34)
  • A wave of laudatory op-eds signals possible commemoration.
• Speculation: Recent retirements have occurred outside the traditional end-of-term window, citing Breyer’s January announcement.

  “Given that the Senate is unlikely to want to focus on SCOTUS nomination and confirmation hearings during the fall of an election year, it feels like they would want to do it sooner rather than later.” (Kate Shaw, 08:28)

• Notable Quote: “...the right-wing ecosystem [is] kicking into high gear.” (Melissa Murray, 07:24)

2. “America’s Next Top Justice?”—WHO Might Replace Alito (09:10)

A rapid-fire, sarcastic overview of likely and, at times, outlandish contenders:

• Judge Andy Oldham (Fifth Circuit):
  • Known for “thirsty energy” and extreme rulings rebuked by the Supreme Court.
  • “He is exactly the right age...he is also an Alito clerk. So there's some nice symmetry here.” (Melissa, 11:02)
• Judge Jim Ho (Fifth Circuit):
  • “A perennial, pick me, conservative.” Would be first Asian American on SCOTUS, but has some ethics baggage.
  • “Seems like on the older side...better if he was 15.” (Melissa, 12:10)
• Judge Aileen Cannon (S.D. Fla.):
  • Rose to fame for pro-Trump rulings in Mar-a-Lago classified docs case.
  • “This is a patronage administration. And Cannon has displayed the kind of loyalty that would make Roscoe Conkling proud.” (Kate, 13:00)
• Judge Naomi Rao (D.C. Circuit):
  • “Would be less insane than some...but in some ways, her outlandish rulings are harder to swallow because she knows better.” (Kate, 13:46)
• Other dark horses include: Patrick Bumatay, Lawrence VanDyke, Stuart Kyle Duncan, Justin Walker, Emile Beauvais, and...some stretching to Alina Haba and Lindsey Halligan for “Senate-confirmation-hearing-madness.”

3. Immigration Enforcement and the Courts’ Response (20:32)

Operation Metro Surge (ICE in Minnesota)

• Victory: ICE compelled to leave, after strong community organizing.
  • “Ordinary citizens...have driven off a paramilitary force occupying Minneapolis, although they've obviously paid for this in literal blood.” (Melissa, 21:19)
  • Notable moment: US Olympic athlete and lawyer defends constitutional rights in press conference, a dig at judicial apathy (22:02).
• “It is possible to love both sports and the Constitution.” (Kate, 22:02)

Detention Policies & Judicial Pushback

• Admin’s draconian new detention policy: Mandating detention (without bond) for anyone not lawfully admitted—even those here for decades.
• Operation Paris: Legal theory for detaining refugees if they've been here 1+ year without a green card, despite bureaucracy slowing the process.
  • “The upshot...could be that if you are a refugee, you have 365 days of freedom...then you can or will be pursued.” (Kate, 25:00)
• Key court decisions:
  • TROs out of Minnesota (Whipple facility) and D.C.—federal judges siding with immigrants’ due process rights.
  • Notable quotes from judicial opinions cited, e.g.:

    “The Constitution does not permit the government to arrest thousands of individuals and then disregard their constitutional rights because it would be too challenging to honor those rights.” (Judge Nancy Brazel, 27:11) “This situation would never have arisen had the government simply afforded plaintiffs their constitutional rights before initially deporting them.” (Judge Boasberg, 29:06)

• The hosts salute the “calm and measured, but extremely forceful” tone of these rulings; judges doing their jobs under fire.

4. Congress—“Epstein Class” and Scandalous Oversight (41:00)

• Congressional oversight wakes up: New Epstein files further expose links between Trump’s inner circle and Epstein; grilling of officials (notably Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick and AG Pamela Jo Bondi) is both surreal and darkly hilarious.
  • Lutnick’s tortured defense: “We had lunch on the island, that is true…with my four children and nannies.”
  • “We left with all of my children. Amazing. That these things need to be said.” (Kate, 43:44)
• Pam Bondi’s Congressional performances:
  • Described as “The Real Housewives of the White House.”

  “It was fireworks, theatrics, just absolute fuckery on every possible level.” (Melissa, 44:46)

  • Bondi derails into non-sequiturs (“The Dow is over $50,000!”), fails to answer questions on Epstein survivors, and is characterized as unhinged and combative.
  • Rep. Jayapal’s moment: Forces Bondi to face survivors and calls out lack of accountability (50:31-51:54).

5. Congressional Pushback on Immigration and Executive Overreach

• House Democrats “bring the fire” in hearings:
  • Rep. Swalwell hammers ICE Director Lyons on comparing deportations to “Amazon Prime”: (“How many times has Amazon Prime shot a mom three times in the face?...The square root of zero.” 53:27)
  • Rep. Delia Ramirez: “I have no respect for the inheritors of the Klan hood and the slave patrol…So are yours.” (55:07)
• Key Point: Democratic minority finding ways to make oversight matter—even with GOP in control.

6. Right-Wing Power Consolidation—Elections, Climate, and Diversity

• Fulton County, Georgia “trial run”: Trump administration uses evidence-lite warrants to seize old election records, a dry run for possible election hijacking in November (57:07).
• Climate policy: EPA repeals the “endangerment finding,” torpedoing climate regulations and laying groundwork for more rollbacks. “...conspicuous silence on the tens of thousands of deaths and millions of additional asthma cases that experts expect.” (Kate, 62:14)
• Heritage Foundation’s latest battle plan: New “250-year roadmap” wants to roll back contraceptive access, women’s work, social safety nets—part of a larger “trad wives” ideological wave. “They are coming for your birth control...your jobs...your uterus, your ability to wear pants, go to school...” (Melissa & Leah, 71:16–71:25)
• Court battles on diversity: 3rd Circuit blocks even race-neutral policies (focused on zip codes) if their purpose is increased diversity, suggesting post-SFFA environment is even more hostile to any effort at desegregation.

7. Favorite Things & Pop Culture Salvos (76:43)

• Benito Bowl halftime show ("It was incredible," Kate, 76:43)
• David Pressman & Arne Duncan’s op-ed on university responses to Trumpism (77:01)
• Historian Joanne Freeman’s “Field of Blood”
• Wall Street Journal exposé on Kristi Noem and Corey Lewandowski (“A pilot fired over Kristi Noem's missing blanket and the constant chaos inside the DHS.” 83:13)
• Shout-out to North Carolina State Senate Candidate Jessica Bickler—Strict Scrutiny listener, inspired to run!
• New podcasts: “Clock It” by Simone Sanders Townsend & Eugene Daniels; Pablo Torre and Pod Save America chat on Trump, sports, and the “maniverse.”

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It does feel like the right-wing ecosystem is kicking into high gear.” — Melissa Murray (07:24)

• “This is a movement for big change and collaboration...that strengthens our democracy, protects public schools, reproductive and LGBTQ rights, and more.” — Sponsor read, Leah Lippman (00:22)

• “It is possible to love both sports and the Constitution.” — Kate Shaw (22:02)

• “All of this is great for literally the Epstein class, and people with retirement accounts, not for ordinary Americans who are literally trying to make it in this economic hellscape...” — Melissa Murray (49:25)

• “The Constitution does not permit the government to arrest thousands of individuals and then disregard their constitutional rights because it would be too challenging to honor those rights.” — Judge Nancy Brazel, as cited by Melissa Murray (27:11)

• “...You can actually have it all if the government creates structural opportunities for you!” — Melissa Murray (74:26)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Alito Retirement Rumors: 04:12 – 09:10
• “America’s Next Top Justice” Lightning Round: 09:10 – 16:35
• Minnesota Immigration Organizing Victories: 20:32 – 24:34
• Detention Policy Judicial Rulings: 24:34 – 31:03
• Congress Wakes Up—Epstein Class Hearings: 41:00 – 56:09
• Election Interference/Trial Run: 57:07 – 59:50
• Climate Deregulation Disaster: 62:14 – 66:16
• Heritage Foundation's “250-Year Roadmap” & War on Sex Equality: 71:02 – 75:46
• Favorite Things & Shoutouts: 76:43 – End

---

Tone & Language

The hosts maintain their signature blend of academic rigor, biting wit, and pop-cultural irreverence. They openly mock the excesses, distractions, and self-dealing of the Trump administration while grounding their critiques in clear constitutional/legal reasoning. There’s plenty of snark, but the seriousness of the stakes is always clear.

---

Conclusion

Whether it’s the looming specter of an Alito retirement, the judicial battles over constitutional rights, dark legal maneuverings around elections, or the chaotic soap opera of Trump-era governance, Strict Scrutiny delivers a lively, clear-eyed tour through the legal-political landscape of 2026. Listeners come away informed—with laughs and a sense of both urgency and community in the ongoing fight for the rule of law.

---

Additional Keywords

SCOTUS, Trump administration, immigration, ICE, DOJ, Ben Aguinaga, Andy Oldham, Eileen Cannon, Naomi Rao, Jim Ho, due process, Alien Enemies Act, whistleblowers, congressional hearings, Pamela Jo Bondi, Epstein, Real Housewives, SFFA, affirmative action, endangerment finding, climate change, Heritage Foundation, Project 2025, diversity, strict scrutiny, lower federal courts, judicial independence, constitutional rights, legal culture, Twitter moments.

Transcript

[Leah Lippman]

Strict scrutiny is brought to you by Americans United for Separation of Church and State. We are all legal nerds here and we know that precedent set in any area of the law ripples out across our lives in so many ways. Our right to religious freedom is one of the most sacred areas of the law, protecting almost every aspect of our daily lives. Rights we all hold dear like LGBTQ rights, freedom to choose the type of health care you need, and ensuring a well funded and inclusive public school system. Protecting the separation of church and state is in fact protecting the very foundation of our democracy. If you're looking for ways to more deeply understand the connection of and from religion to so many of the civil justice issues we see today, you should check out the Summit for Religious Freedom or Surf, an annual conference held in D.C. and virtually April 25th to the 27th, 2026 at Surf, advocates, organizers, faith leaders, atheists and everyone in between come together to take on the growing threats of Christian nationalism and the efforts to impose one narrow religious belief on us all. This is a movement for big change and collaboration across the entire spectrum of religious belief and non belief that strengthens our democracy, protects public schools, reproductive and LGBTQ rights, and more. Be part of the movement that's pushing back and standing up for freedom. Register to attend [e-mail] the holidays are expensive.

[Rocket Money Advertiser]

You're paying for gifts, travel, decorations, food, and before you know it, you've blown way past what you were planning to spend time. Don't start the new year off with bad money vibes. Download Rocket Money to stay on top of your finances. The app pulls your income, expenses and upcoming charges into one place so you can get the clearest picture of your money. It shows how much to set aside for bills and how much is safe to spend for the month so you can spend with confidence, no guesswork needed. Get alerts before bills hit, track budgets and see every subscription you're paying for. Rocket Money also finds extra ways to save you money by canceling subscriptions you're not using and negotiating lower bills for you. On average, Rocket Money users can save up to $740 a year when using all the app's premium features. Start the year off right by taking control of your finances. Go to rocketmoney.com cancel to get started. That's rocketmoney.com cancel rocketmoney.com cancel Mr. Chief.

[Kate Shaw]

Justice, may it please the Court.

[Leah Lippman]

It's an old joke, but when a.

[Melissa Murray]

Man argues against two beautiful ladies like this, they're going to she spoke not elegantly but with unmistakable clarity, she said, I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.

[Kate Shaw]

Foreign.

[Melissa Murray]

Hello, and welcome back to Strict Scrutiny, your podcast about the Supreme Court and the legal culture that surrounds it. We're your hosts today. I'm Melissa Murray.

[Kate Shaw]

And I'm Kate Shaw. And we are in our final week of the long stretch between the January and February Supreme Court sittings. So this is a stretch in which there were no Supreme Court arguments and actually no opinions from the court.

[Melissa Murray]

So must be nice.

[Kate Shaw]

Why hasn't quitting okay for them and for us? I think we've all enjoyed this last week and this coming week of our collective respite before court returns, both to issuing opinions and to hearing arguments. But there has been, even in the absence of scotus, a ton of legal news that we're going to cover today that's coming out of the executive branch, out of the lower federal courts, even out of a Congress, which seems.

[Melissa Murray]

Wait, did we get one? We got a Congress.

[Kate Shaw]

It's a little too soon to say for sure, but there are definitely indications that we might have an Article one that's doing things.

[Melissa Murray]

Is it a pre Congress?

[Kate Shaw]

It might be. You take it before the actual Congress, like.

[Melissa Murray]

Yeah, or a fetal Congress.

[Kate Shaw]

Okay. I'm not sure. I think we will see. But it was showing signs of, you know, actually interest in overseeing the executive branch and communicating with the public. So we're gonna cover all of that.

[Melissa Murray]

But before we get to this week's news, I'm going to preview one of my new favorite things. It's a mystery called the case of the possibly retiring justice. And I have some breaking clues. So not entirely ready to call it breaking news, but as Leah noted in our last episode, a number of clues have emerged over the past couple of weeks pointing to the possibility that friend of the pod, one Samuel A. Alito, may be preparing to hang up his robes and turn full time to pursuing his passions. Right wing news flags, general conservative grievance, and Wagner. So let's enumerate the clues. First, justice alito recently celebrated 20 years on the court at the end of January. And ladies, I know you felt every one of those 20 years in your uterus, but it was just 20 years. Actually not a long time when you really think about it, but it felt like a million years. That is usually a very good milestone on which to retire. Like a round number. You can mark it. I don't even know what the gift is for 20 years. Years. It's Definitely not paper. It's like a metal of some sort. But that's a good time.

[Kate Shaw]

Yeah. Okay.

[Melissa Murray]

The second clue is that the signs are not looking great for the Republicans in the midterms. So they have their big, beautiful, disastrous bill that has made everyone poor. The eggs are still expensive, nobody has health care and they don't seem to care about it. That means that they may very well lose the House of Representatives and possibly the Senate. And if they lose the Senate, that obviously makes it so much harder for the President to get through his SCOTUS fetus nominee. That means if you retire before you lose the Senate, then you make the whole glide path so much easier for getting in your preferred candidate. Do it before the midterms changes everything. So that's the second clue. The third clue is that this is obviously someone who wants to ensure that he is replaced by a like minded successor. Right. So you gotta do this while the iron is hot, while the Senate is in position. And then the final clue is that the publication date for his forthcoming book, so Ordered, which as Leah noted last week, is going to be published during the first week of October term 2026. And that is usually a time when sitting justices are quite busy, which means it's not exactly a great time to release your new book if you want to promote said book. So I will just drop that. I will also note a very fawning op ed by former clerk with cases pending at the Supreme Court right now, Ben Aguinaga, who talked about the decency, the core decency and goodness of his former boss. All of this may suggest that we are just in commemoration mode. 20th anniversary has come and we are just lauding the great man as one does. But personally I think this feels a little bit like the right wing ecosystem kicking into high gear. What do you think, Kate?

[Kate Shaw]

It does feel like that. And I will say that we are not the only ones to have noticed that evidence seems to be mounting. So friend of the pod, Ellie Mistahl, penned a column last week in the Nation magazine titled quote, is Sam Alito Preparing to Disrobe? Amazing title.

[Melissa Murray]

Let's raise 10 past that image. I don't want to.

[Leah Lippman]

Terrible.

[Melissa Murray]

0 out of 10. Yeah, but good, very good.

[Kate Shaw]

Very clever. Yes, absolutely. We salute you, our friend. So we will just note that if there is an announcement, if our speculation and Ellie's is right, it is possible that it could come very soon. So many, although not all, SCOTUS retirement announcements come at the end of the term, but there's no requirement that that be the case. And in fact, if the kind of electoral math that Melissa was alluding to is part of the calculus here than sooner would make a lot of sense. So thinking about a few recent retirements, Justice Stevens announced his retirement in April, Justice Suter in May, and Justice Breyer announced his retirement at the end of January in 2022, providing when he did that his retirement wouldn't take effect until the end of the term, assuming that his successor had been nominated and confirmed by then. He was of course succeeded by Justice Jackson, who replaced him after the end of that term. And kind of given that the Senate is unlikely to want to focus on escotus no and confirmation hearings during the fall of an election year, it feels like they would want to do it sooner rather than later. I presume he would do something similar to Justice Breyer, make the retirement effective at the end of the term and contingent on confirmation of a successor. But it could be, you know, just a matter of weeks if we are right in our speculation.

[Melissa Murray]

All right, so this all begs the question, listeners, who might America's next top justice be right now? We are just going to do a lightning round of the folks we think are likely high on the lists of possible replacements, not necessarily because their jurisprudence has been so eye popping, although some cases it has been, but because they have really been putting themselves out front. They are true. Meredith Gray, pick me candidates. And of course we will revisit all of this if in fact there is an announcement. But just to give you a flavor of what might be in the offing, let's go through them. First up, my first pick me is Judge Andy Oldham of the Fifth Circuit. As we've noted, he has really brought some thirsty energy to the Fifth Circuit and he's been doing so for some time. He's also staked out positions that are so extreme that even the Supreme Court feels compelled to say, easy tiger, slow this down, keep smacking him down. These decisions that have literally required the court to intervene include his non delegation doctrine opinion and Consumers Research Council, his opinion striking down a ghost gun regulation and Bondi vs. Vanderstock and the Flavored Tobacco case FDA vs. Wages and Red lion in which he was unanimously reversed. They call that a bench slap. He also wrote a particularly hackish opinion suggesting that President Joe Biden was too senile to pardon people. Yes, really he did. He's also 47, which means he is exactly the right age. And if past is prologue, he is also an Alito clerk. So there is some nice symmetry here. And our friend Mark Joseph Stern At Slate actually had a piece on the prospect of an Oldham candidacy last year, so we recommend that to you as well. Another entrant, Also from the 5th Circuit is a perennial favorite in these stakes, and that is, of course, one Judge Jim Ho. He is a Thomas clerk and as you know, a perennial, pick me, conservative who's been on this bench for years. He's been a. A huge proponent of the made up major questions doctrine, including a case that sought to blow up the Nuclear Regulatory Commission's nuclear waste storage. Because obviously just letting any fool store nuclear waste sounds like a perfectly good idea. Picking Judge Ho might give the Democrats an opening to focus on corruption and billionaire benefactors. Because as we know, there have been ties to both Justice Thomas and Harlan Crow that Judge Ho has been privy to. That might be a mark against him. But here's the rub. Judge Ho would also be the first Asian American ever nominated to the court, and that might give the Republicans some fodder if the Democrats came out hard against him. Also, Judge Ho is in his 50s, so I don't know, seems like on the older side, like, it would probably better if he was 15. What do you think?

[Kate Shaw]

They do want to install a justice who will serve four decades and I think probably under 50 if they can.

[Melissa Murray]

I think the justice should be able to drive, though.

[Kate Shaw]

That's. I'm just gonna draw.

[Melissa Murray]

It's a line in the sand for me.

[Kate Shaw]

Yeah, I mean, like legally Abel in New York, so many people just can't. So who knows? But so moving on to a slightly younger potential nominee, Judge Eileen Cannon of the Southern District of Florida. So if you remember, classified documents in bathrooms and ballrooms, Cannon really needs no introduction. Her pro Trump rulings in the Mar a Lago episode. Right. Which involved Trump being criminally indicted for taking and retaining documents following the conclusion of his first presidency. Truly jaw dropping. This is a patronage administration. And Cannon has displayed the kind of loyalty that would make Roscoe Conkling proud. You have to see death by lightning. If you haven't.

[Melissa Murray]

That's a deep cut. Wow.

[Kate Shaw]

She's not a New Yorker. She's in. She's a Floridian. But anyway, she delivered for Trump in spades in that case. And it feels like it now might be her turn. And she is on the younger end, so I think she is definitely high on the list.

[Melissa Murray]

One thing that might cut against her, I think it's going to be a big leap from the district court to the Supreme Court. I think she has to make a pit stop at the 11th Circuit.

[Kate Shaw]

It totally possible. Okay, so another possibility. Speaking of the courts of Appeals, Judge Naomi Ra of the D.C. circuit, you know, she was on short lists during the first Trump term. She has definitely delivered some pretty outlandish rulings in favor of Trump since being installed in the DC Circuit, including in the contempt case out of Judge Boseberg's chambers. Still, you know, you hate to say it, but I don't actually see things breaking her way. So first it.

[Melissa Murray]

Hate to say it.

[Kate Shaw]

No, that was complete sarcasm. I don't hate to say it. I love to say it. I mean, although, look, I think she probably, probably would be less insane than some of the people on the list. So, you know, hard to know exactly what to root for here. But in some ways, like, I find her outlandish rulings harder to swallow because I do feel like on some level she knows better. Like she was once a scholar of administrative law who wrote some, you know, perfectly reasonable things, and she no longer is that, but 53. She's probably older than they want. And I also think she is a lady. Right. Which could, you know, so is Eileen Cannon. I'm not sure that's a strike against her, but I think that actually with row some GOP senators, um, this was at least the kind of scuttlebutt last time she was in the mix was that she's not conservative enough, despite her dogged efforts on the bench in recent years to prove them wrong. And I'm not sure she has successfully shaken that concern.

[Melissa Murray]

I don't know. She's done a pretty good job of rehabbing her credentials.

[Kate Shaw]

She's tried. Yeah, she definitely has.

[Melissa Murray]

Any other new and up and comers you want to flag?

[Kate Shaw]

Let me just tick through a few. Judge Patrick Boomite of the Ninth Circuit. Judge Lawrence Van Dyke, also.

[Melissa Murray]

He's the video dissent in the gun case.

[Kate Shaw]

Yep, that's him. I mean, that's a way to get noticed. Stanford Stormtrooper. Stuart Kyle Duncan. Justin walker of the D.C. circuit. Greg.

[Leah Lippman]

I live.

[Melissa Murray]

For a minute I literally thought there was a judge named Stanford Stormtrooper.

[Kate Shaw]

I'm like, that's a very interesting name.

[Melissa Murray]

I've never heard of him. Yes, Kyle. Kyle Duncan.

[Kate Shaw]

Okay, very sort of like outside possibility, but throw in the mix. Newbie gen mascot of the Third Circuit. And what about an erstwhile US Attorney, Alina Haa? Lindsey Halligan.

[Melissa Murray]

Oh, I love that. These two might actually get a Senate confirmation hearing. That would be novel and unprecedented. Amazing.

[Leah Lippman]

That's.

[Kate Shaw]

That's not happening. I just wanted to put them on the list. All right.

[Melissa Murray]

That was just literally a shame.

[Kate Shaw]

I just wanted to remind people that these are lawyers given serious jobs in this administration.

[Melissa Murray]

Well, Kate, I'm surprised that you did not mention one Emile Beauvais of the Third Circuit. This is, of course, the former Trump henchman turned DOJ number three turned 3rd Circuit judge, because, of course, who's probably best known through the reports of whistleblower Erez Rovini, who reported that during the Alien Enemies litigation, quote, Beauvais stated that DOJ would need to consider telling the courts you and would ignore any such order. Ooh, that's going to be spicy in the confirmation hearings. Tell us, sir, about your relationship with doj. I will say that Judge Beauvais has so far avoided. Avoided getting pulled into the contempt proceedings before Judge Boasberg. Maybe that's because he's also a judge right now. That could probably be part of it. But it is still wild that he is on the bench. And wilder still, that he likely will be on the short list if Alito does retire.

[Kate Shaw]

Indeed.

[Melissa Murray]

Obviously, listeners, we will have a more refined list. If and when an announcement is made, it probably will be made via a leak to Politico, so stay tuned for that. I hope the chief justice will be enforcing those NDAs rigorously, as was promised.

[Kate Shaw]

See, of course, the leak could come either from the court or from the White House. And Roberts doesn't have jurisdiction over the White House staffers because, you know, typically there's a letter that gets delivered to the White House, so. But, yeah, I agree with you, Melissa. It's probably a leak rather than an announcement. That is the way we will find out, I think.

[Leah Lippman]

So strict scrutiny is brought to you by Quince. Quince is all about elevated essentials that feel effortless. It's also designed for layering and mixing so that each piece helps build a timeless wardrobe made to last. And with all the combinations that are possible, you can make just a few pieces go a long way. And with versatile silhouettes and thoughtful details, they're the kind of styles you wear again and again. You all know Melissa's Quincepild. Well, here's some of what I appreciate about Quince. They've got the wardrobe staples with quality that's made to last. I have a few of their shells in silk, a V neck, and a scoop neck. They go perfect under any blazer. I also have their cotton tanks and tees. Again, I can mix and match them with just about anything. And they look and feel expensive, like the kind of thing your emotional support billionaire would treat you to after a bad week only Quince is a company that actually has good practices. Quince works directly with safe ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen. So you're not paying for brand markup, just high quality clothing. Quince uses the highest quality materials like 100% European linen and organic cotton. Everything is built to hold up season after season. The stitching, the fit, the fabrics. These are pieces you'll reach for over and over. I can't tell you how much I love my Quince silk shells. They are my go to layer whenever I need to look profesh. Refresh your wardrobe with quince. Go to quince.comstrict for free shipping on your order and 365 day return. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.comstrict to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comstrictstrict scrutiny is brought to you by Cozy Earth okay, you all know it's basically been World War three over at my house as I have to fight for the Cozy Earth Cuddle bubble blanket. Well, good news. I decided to fix this and do some peacemaking to put myself in contention for either the Nobel Peace Prize or the FIFA Peace Prize. I take either and so I got our house the classic Cuddle blanket and omg. Now my partner and I no longer have to fight over the blankets. Because a classic Cuddle blanket allows you to wrap yourself in the kind of comfort that instantly feels special. It's richly plush and also has a comforting weight that is perfect for the polar freeze. It delivers warmth you can feel and softness you'll never want to give up. And it's like equal parts indulgent and inviting. So how am I showing a little extra love this February? By bringing more comfort and care into my everyday life and the life of people I live with. With the classic bubble blanket, it's the perfect way to indulge in self care to wrap yourself in warmth and comfort. Also, you can get Cozy Earth with a risk free purchase so they offer a 100 night sleep trial so you can try them out and if you don't love them, return them hassle free. Trust me, you won't want to. Honestly, we're probably going to need a third Cozy Earth blanket in this house because my dog also thinks she's entitled to one. Which to be fair, she probably is. Cozy Earth also has a 10 year warranty because once you feel this level of comfort, you'll want it to last a decade. Share a little extra love this February and wrap yourself or someone you care about in comfort that truly feels special. Head to cozyearth.com and use my code STRICT for up to 20% off. That's code STRICT for up to 20 percent off. And if you get a post purchase survey, be sure to mention you heard about Cozy Earth right here. Celebrate everyday love with comfort. That makes the little moments count.

[Kate Shaw]

All right, let's turn to the news. And as I said at the outset, there has been a lot. We're going to start with Minnesota, and we will also cover various developments in courts and the executive branch that are kind of broadly related to the administration's brutal immigration enforcement strategy. We will then cover some other developments in courts and the executive branch and again, wonder of wonders, the Congress.

[Melissa Murray]

All right, first up, ice out of Minnesota listeners. On Thursday, Borders Arena, Tom Homan announced that the federal government siege of Minnesota, what they were calling Operation Metro Surge, is ending. Now, wait, I have questions. Is this a not so fast, I will believe it when I see it moment, or is this actually cause for celebration? Or maybe it's both. It does feel really important to note that the ordinary citizens of the state of Minnesota have driven off a paramilitary force occupying Minneapolis, although they've obviously paid for this in literal blood. But we should note that the organizing around everything from warning whistles and networks to mutual aid has actually been amazing, and it has kept so many people safe. We don't know yet whether ICE is gone or what the aftermath from Minnesota will be. But we know that attorneys are working on this and that there are still enormous numbers of Minnesotans who have been snatched off the street. Some of them are actually citizens and legal residents. Some of them have been sent to Texas while they have release orders pending. So none of this is over for them. But it is an amazing development that ICE will be leaving Minnesota.

[Kate Shaw]

Yeah, and an amazing victory for ordinary Minnesotans holding the line on the Constitution and the rule of law. And on that topic, I wanted to mention a moment from the Olympics last week that makes clear that that some athletes understand the Constitution much better than some of our very most esteemed jurists. So one of the members of the US Curling team, who also happens to be a lawyer, said in a press conference, quote, we have a Constitution and it allows us freedom of the press and freedom of speech, protects us from unreasonable searches and seizures and makes it so we have to, you know, have probable cause to be pulled over. And what's happening in Minnesota is wrong. There's no shades of gray, end quote. So I heard that Last week. And I really hoped that Justice Kavanaugh was watching and listening because I found it to be proof positive that it is possible to love both sports and the Constitution. So, yeah, love that moment. And it is just sort of more evidence. It has been really clear in this timeline that the people are doing a much better job defending core constitutional values than our institutions are right now.

[Melissa Murray]

I love an attorney slash curler.

[Kate Shaw]

Like more of that, please.

[Melissa Murray]

Okay, next topic, Detention policy. In the last episode, we talked about the detention policy that this administration has been trotting out and which has been rejected by just about every court except the fifth Circuit. Under this new detention policy, the government took the view that anyone who has not been lawfully admitted to the United States, I. E. Anyone who may have crossed the border and then stayed in the United States, who the government was then attempting to deport, now had to be detained. And we should say that's not the way this normally happened. Even if you had crossed the border and were undocumented, you weren't necessarily immediately detained while deportation proceedings proceeded against you. The group of people who are included in this detention order includes people who have been here literally for decades. And that detention means that. That they are being held without the chance of a bond hearing. No administration has ever taken that kind of hard line position before. It literally would not be possible to detain everyone in those circumstances. And given the absolutely deplorable conditions of immigration detention and the fact that the administration seemingly wants to deport any non white individual, the mandatory detention policy seems like yet another effort to continue this campaign of terror and against groups that the administration disfavors.

[Kate Shaw]

Yeah, but it seems that as bad as that was what Melissa was just describing, even that wasn't enough because the government has also trotted out a separate initiative. It's calling Operation Paris in Minnesota. And this is a program that does not just target those who were not lawfully admitted when they entered the country. It targets some individuals who were lawfully admitted. And get this, refugees. So the goal of the program literally seems to be to arrest refugees, people who waited, sometimes for years, passing multiple background rounds of screenings and background checks until they were lawfully admitted to the United States by our government. When someone is admitted as a refugee, just like to give a little background, they are vetted very thoroughly and subsequently allowed to seek a status adjustment, which often means applying for a green card. That green card is not processed until they have been here after their admission as a refugee for a year. And the government has trotted out this new legal theory that the Refugee act of 1980 allows or possibly even requires. They seem still to be working out the kind of anti immigrant kinks of their theory, but either allows or requires the arrest of any refugee who has been here for a year and has not yet received their green card. But the green card process can take a long time. It is also outside of the control of the individual who has pursued that status adjustment and it is in the federal government's control. So the upshot of this theory could be that if you are a refugee, you have 365 days of freedom in the United States and then you can or will be pursued starting on day 366. It is absolutely horrific.

[Melissa Murray]

And because it's absolutely horrific, it's being challenged in court. The case is called UHA and Advocates for Human Rights vs Bondi. The plaintiffs recently obtained a temporary restraining order, a TRO at the end of January that that puts a stop to the policy for now. The government has moved to stay the TRO so to dissolve it so that they can continue the policy. The district court has rejected this request. There will be an evidentiary hearing in the case this week. And again, we just want to emphasize this is not the same issue as the broader detention policy that is now before the 5th Circuit. So completely separate kind of thing. Last Thursday night we also got a temporary restraining order, TRO out of Minnesota in a right to counsel challenge involving the Whipple detention facility in Minneapolis. This was a Fifth Amendment challenge and the district court found that the plaintiffs had a high likelihood of success on the merits. It is a very, very powerful opinion. The court found that the federal government, when devising its Operation Metro Surge strategy, had, quote, failed to provide for the constitutional rights of its civil detainees. The court continued, the Constitution does not permit the government to arrest thousands of individuals and then disregard their constitutional rights because it would be too challenging to honor those rights. Seems true. The judge, Judge Nancy Brazel, ordered the administration to immediately begin providing detainees with access to phones, including within an hour of their arrival at the facility. She also generally required ongoing access to phones and attorneys with rooms in which they could meet with their clients. And she barred out of state transfers during the first 72 hours of any detention.

[Kate Shaw]

It so that was an incredibly powerful and also very practically important decision. And there was another really important immigration decision last week from the chambers of one Judge Boasberg, who we've already mentioned in this hour. Judge Boasberg is the chief judge of the D.C. district Court and on Thursday he issued an opinion directing the administration to provide some of the individuals deported under the Alien Enemies act many months ago with due process. So, yes, these are still ongoing proceedings related to the administration's deportations back in March. March, when those individuals were flown to the seacot facility in El Salvador in flagrant violation of Boasberg's own orders. Since then, those individuals were transferred from seacot to Venezuela. Some of them have left Venezuela, and the ones who are outside of Venezuela are the individuals that this new order covers. So the judge orders the administration to facilitate the return of these individuals to the United States so they can be given the process that they are owed. They don't need to be released. They can remain in United States custody, but they are owed due process to evaluate the claims that led to their initial expulsion. And the opinion actually is careful not to order the return of individuals still in Venezuela, given the sensitive foreign policy concerns that such an order would trigger.

[Melissa Murray]

I want to quote a little bit from this opinion. So Judge Boasberg wrote, quote, it is worth emphasizing that this situation would never have arisen had the government simply afforded plaintiffs their constitutional rights before initially deporting them. True. Yeah, true. Anyway, yeah, it has to be said, why does this have to be said?

[Kate Shaw]

But the tone of. I just, like, I really respected both kind of, like, the kind of moral and constitutional gravity and seriousness of that ruling and the one that we were just talking about out of Minnesota regarding the Whipple detention facility. But they're not, like, histrionic at all, the opinions. They're just, like, very calm and measured, but extremely forceful.

[Melissa Murray]

No, it's sort of like, hey, guys, I don't know if you know this, but there's this document, it's called the Constitution, and it says pretty clearly and unequivocally that you have to do these things. Have you read it? The answer, of course, is no. And I think that's what makes it such an amazing and powerful ruling. This is just a judge deciding the cases before him under the law and the Constitution. And he's being very clear that the Constitution itself is clear. Just because the news cycle has moved on from this, just because the administration has decided it's done with its little experiment with a Salvadoran torture prison and the Alien Enemies act act, doesn't mean we're just going to sweep this under the rug. Let's come back to it and acknowledge that this administration has violated the rights of these people in flagrant, Flagrant ways.

[Kate Shaw]

Yeah. And it's also like, it is. What he says on the substance here is totally in line with what the Supreme Court has said, which is that due process still applies even in the Alien Enemies act context. And I just think it's also sort of doubly impressive that this is Boasberg just like, methodically doing the work. Because, look, he's already been mandamist. They are trying to impeach him. Trump and Bondi have repeatedly attacked him personally. Like, judges do not love any of this. But he is not going to be cowed into not doing his job. And we salute that.

[Melissa Murray]

All right, Speaking of people just doing their jobs, whom we salute, let's talk about some of the other folks who are holding the line on this document we call the Constitution. Last week, a federal grand jury refused to indict six members of Congress that the Department of Justice had tried to charge with seditious conspiracy. That is the same charge that E. Stewart Rhodes was convicted of and then later was pardoned by the President. The whole seditious conspiracy charge was animated by a video that these six members of Congress made reminding members of the military that they are actually not permitted to follow illegal orders. Let's roll a clip from that video.

[Kate Shaw]

This administration is pitting our uniform military and intelligence community professionals against American citizens like us.

[Melissa Murray]

You all swore an oath to protect and defend this Constitution. Right now, the threats to our Constitution aren't just coming from abroad, but from.

[Leah Lippman]

Right here at home.

[Melissa Murray]

Our laws are clear.

[Kate Shaw]

You can refuse illegal orders.

[Melissa Murray]

FYI listeners, the individuals speaking includes Senator Mark Kelly, Sen. Alissa Slotkin, Representative Chris d', Aluisio, Representative Maggie Goodlander, Representative Chrissy Houlihan, and Representative Jason Crow. There is also a related development in the D.C. district Court. In addition to trying to criminally indict these members of Congress who are former military and intelligence officers, Secretary of War Pete Hegseth has initiated disciplinary proceedings against against Mark Kelly, the Arizona senator and retired Navy captain. I think we should probably note that it seems like Kelly himself is really kind of a burr under the administration's saddle. I don't know if that's because as a veteran, as a senator from a swing state Arizona, he might be in a particularly good position to challenge whoever is the successor to this administration. Just going to put that out there. Right. He's also the husband of Gabby Giffords. She was, of course, a representative from Arizona who was shot in the head and has become a powerful voice for gun safety laws.

[Kate Shaw]

Yeah.

[Melissa Murray]

These proceedings that Secretary Hegseth initiated included a letter of censure and the initiation of a review that could result in a reduction in Kelly's retirement rank as well as his pension. Kelly has filed a challenge to those proceedings, arguing that they violate both the First Amendment and federal statutes relating to the Department of Defense. That's what the Department of War used to be. And a federal judge emphatically agreed, granting Kelly a preliminary injunction.

[Kate Shaw]

Let me just also quote from that opinion. It's really been quite a week for banger opinions from various district court judges. Quote, rather than trying to shrink the First Amendment liberties of retired service members, Secretary Hegseth and his fellow defendants might reflect and be grateful for the wisdom and expertise that retired service members have brought to public discussions and debate on military matters in our nation over the past 250 years. If so, they will more fully appreciate why the founding Fathers made free speech the First Amendment in the Bill of Rights. So I was talking about how I thought, sober and powerful. Some of the earlier district court opinions we were discussing were. This one was a bit different in tone. Judge Leon, the author of the opinion, caught some heat online for his liberal use of exclamation marks. I think there were a dozen. Yeah, it's just punctuation, but, you know, the tone, too. Like, it was. It was heated, I would say, but, like, the substance was really powerful. And I just thought it is. There are so many moments in this. This kind of hellacious timeline where you kind of wonder if you are crazy. Like if your reaction to the administration's reaction to the video that we just played a clip from was that this seems insane that the Secretary of War would be targeting and trying to strip the pension of a decorated veteran who is also United States Senator. And, you know, maybe there is the political overlay that Melissa was just alluding to, but that. That seems insane, especially where the ostensible predicate for this targeting is obviously protected First Amendment activity. It is just nice to know that Judge Leon agrees with. This is completely insane. And, you know, the opinion sort of notes with hope that Hegseth might like, course correct record scratch right slash. Narrator voice like he did not course correct. Because Hegseth took to social media basically right away, pledging to appeal and insisting, quote, sedition is sedition. Captain addressing, I presume, retired Captain Mark Kelly.

[Melissa Murray]

Spell it, sir. Spell sedition.

[Kate Shaw]

I mean, he went to Princeton. He can. He can probably spell sedition.

[Melissa Murray]

I'll believe it.

[Kate Shaw]

No comment.

[Melissa Murray]

One more important ruling also out of D.C. and this one in a case involving federal inmates sentenced to death, but whose sentences were commuted by President Biden to life in prison. Biden issued These commutations in December 2024, just before the end of his term. Trump. Trump has long been a death penalty enthusiast. I think that's the most clear way to say it. We can think back to his advocacy for the death penalty for the five black teenagers who were later exonerated in the Central park, quote, unquote wilding case. They are now known as the exonerated Five. He was furious about these commutations that President Biden issued. And it's pretty clear from the minute he took office that if he couldn't override these commutations, he was going to find a way to make make the lives of these inmates absolutely miserable. And to wit, he has issued an executive order directing the Department of Justice to ensure, quote, that these offenders are imprisoned in conditions consistent with the monstrosity of their crimes and the threats they pose. Attorney General Pamela Joe Bondi later took steps, making clear that her goal was indeed to impose the maximum punishment here.

[Kate Shaw]

So this lawsuit filed on behalf of the individuals who had received these commutations challenged the administration's actions with respect to the conditions of their confinement. And last week, Judge Timothy Kelly in the D.C. district Court sided in part with those inmates. So he actually rejected many of their claims, but found that they were likely to succeed on the merits of their Fifth Amendment claim, alleging that the decision by the administration to summarily transfer all of them to a facility known as ADX Florence deprived them of due process process. So inmates, even, you know, inmates in federal prison convicted of heinous crimes have a due process right to challenge things related to the conditions of their confinement. And it is very clear that no such process was afforded here. The sequence of events that Melissa was just describing make clear that Trump and Bondi just decided that all these individuals were headed to ADX because that they thought was the toughest place they could be put. There was no consideration given to their individual circumstances, their health, their medical status, any of that. And these officials may, at the end of the day, very likely do have the authority to make that determination. But they have to afford a degree of process before they do that. And the sequence of events that is sketched in the order makes clear that just like there was no process afforded, the order came down from on high. It was implemented full stop. And that is just not something the Constitution permits.

[Leah Lippman]

Strict scrutiny is brought to you by armor Colostrum. True self reliance starts with taking control of your own house health Armruck. Colostrum is nature's original solution. Colostrum is packed with over 400 bioactive nutrients that fortify gut health and strengthen immune health to build resilience at the cellular level. Because when you invest in your health, you invest in your ability to show up, to think clearly and stay in control no matter what life throws your way. Like, I don't know, this Supreme Court. It's cold season here in the Midwest and I do not want to get sick before our trip to warmer climes, including the live shows in California. So Armor Colostrum has been helping me strengthen my immune health to nourish me and strengthen my body's barriers to support my immune health. As an added bonus, Armor Colostrum is packed with more than 400 bioactive nutrients that work kind of like a blueprint for your body, promoting its natural renewal processes like for my skin, which trust me, needs all the help it can get. Again, during these winter months, we've worked out a special offer for my audience receive 30% off your first subscription order order go to armra.comstrict or enter Strict to get 30% off your first subscription order. That's a R M R A dot com Strict Strict scrutiny is brought to you by Mint Mobile. We've got a lot to talk about on this show and you need a way to talk about all of it with your friends. And Mint Mobile can help Stop paying way too much for wireless just because that's how it's always been. Mint exists purely to fix this. That same coverage, same speed, just without the inflated price tag. The premium wireless you expect unlimited talk, text and data, but at a fraction of what others charge. And for a limited time, get 50% off 3, 6 or 12 month plans of unlimited premium wireless. Bring your own phone and number, activate with ESIM in minutes and start saving immediately. No long term contracts, no hassle. With a 7 day money back guarantee and customer satisfaction ratings in the mid 90s, Mint makes it easy to try it and see why people don't go back. If I needed a new cell phone plan, trust me, this is what I would use. Ready to stop paying more than you have to? New customers can make the switch today and for a limited time get unlimited premium wireless for just $15 per month. Switch [e-mail] strict that's mintmobile.com strict. Upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for 12 month plan requests. $15 a month. Equivalent taxes and freeze are extra. Initial plan term only. Only 50 gigabytes may slow down when network is busy. Capable devices required availability, speed and coverage varies. Additional terms apply. See mintmobile.com.

[Melissa Murray]

Alright, let's talk about Congress.

[Kate Shaw]

It's right there in the first article.

[Melissa Murray]

It sure is. And you read it for the articles. As I continue to tell you all, last week, with the release of many millions of additional pages from the Epstein files, we learned so much more about the extent of the ties that Jeffrey Epstein had with many of the individuals who happen to be in the Trump orbit. Georgia Senator John Ossoff coined a new term for these individuals. Let's play him here.

[Kate Shaw]

Now, you remember we were told that MAGA was for working class Americans.

[Leah Lippman]

You remember that?

[Melissa Murray]

But this is a government of, by and for the ultra rich. It is the wealthiest cabinet ever.

[Kate Shaw]

This is the Epstein class.

[Melissa Murray]

Ruling our country.

[Kate Shaw]

They are the elites they pretend to hate.

[Melissa Murray]

And fortuitously, members of the Trump Cabinet were on Capitol Hill last week to testify. And hearing members of Congress press them on these alleged ties was surreal and shocking and honestly, at times very, very funny.

[Kate Shaw]

Wait, can I just say, when you said members of the. I thought you were gonna say of the Epstein class were on the Hill, and it turns out in some instances it was members of the Trump cabinet who were also the Epstein class.

[Melissa Murray]

I mean, the Venn diagram is interesting.

[Kate Shaw]

It's all.

[Melissa Murray]

Sure is. All right, let's start off with Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick. Well, revelations in the new document release made clear that Lutnick may have previously misrepresented the extent of his ties to Jeffrey Epstein. And what great timing. He was already scheduled to appear at a Senate hearing when, unsurprisingly, people wanted to talk about the fact that maybe he lied about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, a sex trafficking pedophile. So let's roll that tape.

[Howard Lutnick]

I did have lunch with him as I was on a boat going across on a family vacation. My wife was with me, as were my four children and nannies I had another couple with. They were there as well, with their children.

[Melissa Murray]

Children.

[Howard Lutnick]

And we had lunch on the island, that is true, for an hour. And we left with all of my children, with my nannies and my wife all together. We were on family vacation.

[Kate Shaw]

I mean, there's just so much to unpack here, you know, A, he doesn't really address the misrepresentations he'd previously made about the extent of and the timing of his relationship with Epstein. And there's also the nanny's plural, which was.

[Melissa Murray]

Must be nice.

[Leah Lippman]

Nice.

[Kate Shaw]

Puzzling. Or not.

[Melissa Murray]

Yeah, maybe that's how they roll.

[Kate Shaw]

Maybe that is how they roll. We left with all of my children. Amazing. That These things need to be said.

[Melissa Murray]

We had lunch on the island.

[Kate Shaw]

Yeah.

[Melissa Murray]

As one does.

[Kate Shaw]

Again, as everyone has to do with all the nannies. I mean, it also was.

[Melissa Murray]

No, I'm just. This reminded me so much of when people defend the Supreme Court justices for their cozy ties with billionaires. And, like, it's not a crime to have friends. It's not a crime to have lunch on an island where people.

[Kate Shaw]

Sex traffic. It's not a crime to have friends with islands that you have lunch on with. And also the nannies, plural. Like, I guess when I heard it, I assumed, okay, like, that's two nannies. That's crazy. But I guess it could have been even more than two. Like, how many nannies?

[Melissa Murray]

One for each child.

[Kate Shaw]

Why not four nannies?

[Melissa Murray]

You get a nanny. You get a nanny. You get a nanny.

[Rocket Money Advertiser]

Someone gives.

[Kate Shaw]

You conspicuously didn't tell us. Okay, so that was Lutnick. But of course, the main attraction this week was Pamela Jo Bondi putting on.

[Melissa Murray]

No, no, no. Can I just say.

[Kate Shaw]

Yes, this. We've been waiting. We've been so patient.

[Melissa Murray]

The Real Housewives of the White House. Am I right? This was a reveal.

[Kate Shaw]

Yes.

[Melissa Murray]

I mean, if Andy Cohen had showed up to gavel in this hearing instead of Jim Jordan, I would not have been surprised because this was fireworks, theatrics, just absolute fuckery on every possible level. I did not think she could outdo herself, and yet she did. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Florida.

[Kate Shaw]

I want us to overlay the Florence and the Machine and Taylor collab. Florida. It's one hell of a drug. But I just have to say, it's. It really is.

[Melissa Murray]

It really is.

[Kate Shaw]

That is sort of the anthem, I guess, of this hearing, as I think about it.

[Melissa Murray]

Sorry, folks, if you're from Florida, I'm from Florida, too. I know that's why you have speak. That's why I can say this like, this was literally like high school.

[Leah Lippman]

I.

[Melissa Murray]

It was ptsd. As.

[Kate Shaw]

As I told Melissa before we started recording, I don't think I've ever watched, like, a single minute of any of the Real Housewives Housewives shows. But I, I. Everything you said sounds right. And it just also was the most unhinged display an Attorney General of these United States has ever mounted. I mean, correct. She shouted.

[Melissa Murray]

Correct.

[Kate Shaw]

She interrupted. She went on truly deranged non sequiturs. She flashed her binder to inadvertently reve reveal that DOJ is apparently spying on members of Congress as they visit the department to view unredacted versions of the Epstein files. I mean, it was so Ruth Marcus in a New Yorker column called it kind of roller derby, which I thought was like close, but also, I mean, I, I want, I too wanted to reach for a sports metaphor. Okay, Roller derby. It was not curling, let me tell you that. But it was like roller derby is combat and is tough and the players look cool. Sometimes they do get bloodied and like, that's part of it. This was just like, not that. And I mean. So the week started for many of us with the Bonito Bowl, AKA wait.

[Melissa Murray]

Was the halftime show, Wait, a concert at which people also played football.

[Kate Shaw]

That was the concert in which some people watched people play football. It was an incredible concert. It was too short. It should have been, you know, three hours instead of 13 minutes. But this was like the Bondi bowl, which was literally in every conceivable way the polar opposite of the Bonito Bowl. And that I think is the best sports analogy I can offer.

[Melissa Murray]

We gotta play some highlights. Pamela Jo Bondi, my girl, you have outdone yourself. So we're going to roll some tape. Let's start with Pamela. Joe Bondi really vindicating Senator Ossoff's thesis about the so called Epstein class. Here she is responding to a question from Jamie Raskin about Epstein.

[Pamela Jo Bondi]

This administration released over 3 million pages of documents. Over 3 million. And Donald Trump signed that law to release, release all of those documents. He is the most transparent president in the nation's history. And none of them, none of them ask Merrick Garland. Over the last four years, one word about Jeffrey Epstein. How ironic is that? You know why? Because Donald Trump. The Dow, the Dow right now is over.

[Leah Lippman]

Over.

[Pamela Jo Bondi]

The dow is over $50,000. I don't know why you're laughing. You're a great stock trader. As I hear Raskin, the dow is over 50,000 right now. The S&P at almost 7,000. And the NASDAQ smashing records. Americans 401ks and retirement savings are booming. That's what we should be talking about.

[Howard Lutnick]

You can let her filibuster all day long, but not on our watch, not on our time. No way. And I told you about that Attorney General before you started.

[Pamela Jo Bondi]

You don't tell me.

[Melissa Murray]

Oh, I did tell you because we.

[Kate Shaw]

Saw what you did in the Senate. Not even a lawyer meeting will be in order. Something just her brain short circuited. It short circuited because. Do you know why? Because Donald Trump. And then just all of a sudden she babysit.

[Melissa Murray]

Literally. I was like, are her batteries dying?

[Kate Shaw]

It looked like somebody needed to reboot her. But like her notes, do you think they just said when. If you're in a bind and you don't know what to say, just say the dow is over 50,000. And she was like, remembered that she had nothing to say about. How ironic is it that none of them asked Merrick Garland these questions? And then because Donald Trump. And she could not finish the sentence because Donald Trump. And so she switched to talking about the Dow.

[Melissa Murray]

Let me just take Pamela Joe Bondi seriously for a moment. I will just say to this incredible non sequitur and just like weird tangent, the stock market is not the economy. Not every American has a retirement account. So all of this is great for literally the Epstein class and people with retirement accounts, not for ordinary Americans who are literally trying to make it in this actual economic hellscape that you and your friends have created.

[Kate Shaw]

100%. No, no, absolutely. But they want both to pivot to the stock market because that is the thing they care about, because that is what they and their ilk think.

[Melissa Murray]

Strike for non responsiveness.

[Kate Shaw]

If only. Okay, so that was maybe the highlight. No, there were. No, there are. There are others. Okay. So we wanted to play a powerful moment that Representative Jayapal sort of created that put the lie to Bondi suggestion that the DoJ was interested in working with and cares about had, you know, talked to and taken seriously Epstein survivors. So let's play that clip here to.

[Representative Jayapal]

The survivors in the room. If you are willing, please stand. And if you are willing, please raise your hands if you have still not been able to meet with this Department of Justice, please know for the record that every single survivor has raised their hand. Attorney General Bondi, you apologize to the survivors in your opening statement for what they went through at the hands of Jeffrey Epstein. Will you turn to them now and apologize for what your Department of Justice has put them through with the absolutely unacceptable release of the Epstein files and their information.

[Pamela Jo Bondi]

Congresswoman, you sat before Merrick Garland sat in this chair twice.

[Representative Jayapal]

Attorney General Bond. No, I'm going to reclaim my time because I asked you the Attorney General question. Attorney General, that I would like to answer, which is will you turn to the survivors? This is not about anybody that came before you. It is about you taking responsibility for your Department of Justice.

[Melissa Murray]

Let's play another one because we. I don't think we can pound the table too hard on this one. Let's play another one here.

[Kate Shaw]

Okay.

[Pamela Jo Bondi]

There was one redaction where he's listed as a co conspirator and we invited you in. This guy has Trump derangement syndrome he needs to get. You're a fake.

[Kate Shaw]

There were a number of members of Congress, including Representative Massie, who a Republican, is working very hard to make me kind of like him, even though he's completely insane and believes nothing that I believe in.

[Melissa Murray]

He's the new Neil Gorsuch. A stop clock.

[Kate Shaw]

Is it just right? It is just that. Maybe. But yeah. So he and Ro Khanna really were the architects of this bill that has forced the disclosure of these millions of documents. And I am not sure sort of what is what shoes are yet to drop. There's both all the redactions in the millions of pages of release documents and the fact that there are several millions of additional pages that have not yet been released. But every day it seems it just takes time for humans to go through these millions of pages, and it is just revelation after revelation. So I think many more shoes to drop, probably with even this tranche of documents. And there may be more documents to come.

[Melissa Murray]

All right, let's move on to another hearing, this one with ICE Director Todd Lyons. As you can probably tell, listeners from the clips that we just played of the Bondi hearing, House Democrats were on their game. They brought their A game. They brought the fire. They acquitted themselves incredibly well. And guess what? They continue to do so. In this hearing with ICE Director Todd Lyons, we saw even more of that. Let's start with this exchange from California Congressman Eric Swalwell.

[Howard Lutnick]

You said in Phoenix at the Border Security Expo that you wanted to see a deportation process that was like, quote, Amazon prime, but with human beings. Mr. Lyons, how many times has Amazon prime shot a mom three times in the face? None, sir.

[Friend of the Pod / Crooked Media Host]

But you're also.

[Howard Lutnick]

It's the square root of zero. Speaking of human beings, how many times has Amazon prime shot a nurse 10 times in the back? None. How many times has Amazon prime dragged a woman out of her car by her hair and then dragged her down the street? None.

[Melissa Murray]

And here's Swalwell again because he has more questions and. And he needs some answers.

[Howard Lutnick]

Sir Lyons, will you apologize to the family of Renee Good for being called a domestic terrorist by the president and his leadership? No, sir. Why not? Sir, I welcome the opportunity to speak to the family in private, but I'm not going to comment on any active investigation. Is she a domestic terrorist?

[Friend of the Pod / Crooked Media Host]

Sir, I'm not going to comment on the investigation.

[Melissa Murray]

Other representatives read letters from kids detained at ICE facilities. These letters were all published by ProPublica as part of their story about the conditions for children in those ICE detentions. So here's Representative Dan Goldman of New York. Do you know what other regimes in the 20th century century required similar proof of citizenship?

[Howard Lutnick]

Yes, sir.

[Melissa Murray]

What sir, there's very various nefarious regimes that did that.

[Kate Shaw]

Is Nazi Germany one?

[Howard Lutnick]

Yes.

[Melissa Murray]

Representative Delia Ramirez also had some questions about this and she apparently is a student of history.

[Representative Jayapal]

And I have just as much respect.

[Melissa Murray]

For you as I do for the last white men who put on masks to terrorize communities of color.

[Representative Jayapal]

I have no respect for the inheritors.

[Melissa Murray]

Of the Klan hood and the slave patrol. Those activities were immoral then and criminal and so are yours.

[Kate Shaw]

So I guess just this is these are the pieces of evidence we have to support the thesis that Congress seems to be be stirring itself. There is a lot that you can get done to communicate with the public and to really like hold the feet of these administration actors to the fire, even when you are the minority party. And so I think that calling hearings that are bipartisan hearings when you know you have an issue that is a salient in a bipartisan way, is immigration really important? Calling the shadow hearings of the sort that we talked about last week is important. If there's an issue, you cannot get the Republican majority on board with actually highlighting and interrogating. But I do it does feel like they are doing the work right now. And I guess just we want to see more of it.

[Melissa Murray]

Can I give a special shout out to Becca Balint? Who she's got this little Bob. She is crushing it. And she literally went off on Pamela Joe Bondi. She's always really great. She was amazing at the hearing where Jack Smith appeared before the committee and the Republicans all tried to take him down. She was having absolutely none of this. She is always prepared, always fantastic. I don't think she gets her due. So I want to give her a shout out. She's literally one of my favorite things of the week.

[Kate Shaw]

Oh, nice. All right. So we're doing that. She gets a. Well, I just put that in a shout out.

[Melissa Murray]

That's a preview.

[Kate Shaw]

Yes, but more to come. Okay. So shifting now both from immigration and congressional oversight to some other topics and staying on the broad subject of the chaos and lawlessness that this administration is unleashing. We're going to turn to election interference, a couple of new salvos in the war on the planet and efforts to stamp out the last shreds of diversity and efforts to achieve diversity in our institutions.

[Melissa Murray]

So let's start with Fulton County, Georgia. The affidavit that was used to obtain the warrant that was then used to search Fulton County, Georgia's records was recently released and.

[Leah Lippman]

Wow.

[Melissa Murray]

Wow. The affidavit originated from a referral that was sent by Kurt Olson, who is Trump's director of election security and integrity. Olson was also the leader of Stop the steel in 2020. Again, there are no new ideas. He also spoke with the president repeatedly on January 6th of 2021.

[Leah Lippman]

It was wild.

[Melissa Murray]

The warrant also incorporates research from an election denial activist whose claims have since been debunked and who was also convicted of videot taping people in the bathroom without their knowledge. Absolutely. The best people. And the warrant, just for good measure, included material from a witness who downloaded his data from quote, unquote, zebra Duck.

[Kate Shaw]

You cannot make this up.

[Melissa Murray]

You can't. The warrant says, quote, if these deficiencies were the result of intentional action, it would be a violation of federal law. I didn't think you were allowed to get a warrant or an indictment by saying, if there's probable cause here, then you should give me a warrant or an indictment. So give me a warrant or an indictment. Right. I mean, I thought the whole point was, like, you actually have to establish probable cause for said warrant or the indictment to issue. Right. Or did I just read that whole Constitution thing wrong?

[Kate Shaw]

If you. If you read fast, you don't see the F. And I think that's the hope.

[Melissa Murray]

Yes. Alas, that is where we are.

[Kate Shaw]

Just play with the fonts a little bit and you just get the deficiencies.

[Melissa Murray]

Where the result, just two letters. Very impactful, very meaningful, very easy to skip over.

[Kate Shaw]

Yeah, details, details.

[Melissa Murray]

Again, we cannot emphasize enough how concerning the developments in Fulton County, Georgia, are. This is truly, in our view, an effort to, one, go back to 2021 and promote this election denialism, but also to look forward to the next election and essentially show that they can do this. They can go and take over a locality, a municipality, and seize their voting records and make them come to heal. Like this is just gearing up for the next fight.

[Kate Shaw]

Right. It is a terrifying trial run because these are old records. But once they have kind of desensitized the public and pressured election officials into giving them old ballots, why not get new ones? Not a long distance to write asking for ballots in the November election this year as the election is underway. No, it's a terrifying and alarming development.

[Leah Lippman]

You know what's easier than fixing a problem? Not having the problem in the first place. I mean, imagine if we didn't have this. Supreme Court. Girl can dream. Same philosophy works for your liver. It's one of those organs you don't think about until you have to. Supporting it daily is one of those small things that can make a huge difference in how you feel overwhelmed overall. What does your liver even do? It's your body's filter. It processes everything you consume and performs more than 500 daily functions. Think energy production, digestion, vitamin storage, and more. Yes, the liver helps make these processes happen every day. And when it's overworked, you're going to feel it. So what is dose for your liver? Well, dose for your liver is a clinically backed liver health supplement. It promotes daily liver function so your liver can do its job. Job Zero sugar, zero junk and zero calories. What can you expect when drinking dose daily? Well, you're going to reduce your sluggishness and get rid of those midday crashes. Ready to give your liver the support it deserves. Head to dosedaily co strict or enter strict to get 35% off your first subscription. Your body does so much for you. Let's do something for it that's D O S E D A I L y strict for 35% off your first month subscription.

[Rocket Money Advertiser]

The holidays are expensive. You're paying for gifts, travel, decorations, food, and before you know it, you've blown way past what you were planning to spend. Don't start the new year off with bad money vibes. Download Rocket Money to stay on top of your finances. The app pulls your income, expenses and upcoming charges into one place so you can get the clearest picture of your money. It shows how much to set aside for bills and how much is safe to spend for the month so you can spend with confidence, no guesswork needed. Get alerts before bills hit, track budgets and see every subscription you're paying for. Rocket Money also finds extra ways to save you money by canceling subscriptions you're not using and negotiating lower bills for you. On average, Rocket Money users can save up to $740 a year when using all of the app's premium features. Start the year off right by taking control of your finances. Go to rocketmoney.com cancel to get started. That's rocketmoney.com cancel rocketmoney.com cancel.

[Kate Shaw]

All right, let's shift to more terrifying and alarming developments, and this one in Climate News. So last week, the Trump administration issued its final rule repealing what's known as the endangerment finding. A determination under the Clean Air act that yes, climate change endangers human health and the environment seems uncontroversial. And yet so and yet the agency formally made this endangerment finding back in 2009 after the Supreme Court decision in Massachusetts versus EPA. And that finding has been the basis for a lot of environmental regulation since then. So this repeal last week of the finding was paired with the announcement of a rollback of climate emission standards for light and medium and heavy duty vehicles. And it also lays the groundwork for, for the rollback of lots of other regulations, including of coal plant emissions, emissions from oil and gas wells, and more. Trump and the EPA administrator, Lee Zeldin were just like all smiles as they announced this at the White House. They were crowing about lessening the burdens on business. They were taking shots at the Obama and Biden administrations. And you know what? It was sort of conspicuous. They stayed silent on the tens of thousands of deaths and millions of additional asthma cases that experts expect the increased air pollution from these, these repeals and rollbacks will cause. And that does not even touch the human toll of the effect of these rollbacks on the climate more broadly and what that will do to all of us.

[Melissa Murray]

But don't worry, everyone. Interior Secretary Doug Borgum took to the airwaves to reassure everyone that carbon dioxide is not a pollutant at all. In fact, he says we need it to survive and you can just snort it off a toilet seat and you will be just fine.

[Kate Shaw]

Wait, wait.

[Melissa Murray]

Wrong. Wrong secretary. That was actually RFK Jr talking about his past drug use. Right? I cannot keep these folks.

[Kate Shaw]

He, he told us he used to snort cocaine off of toilet seats. He was not afraid of a germ. Leah Lipman has entered the chat. This is a great moment.

[Melissa Murray]

Like, like, oh, hi, Leah.

[Leah Lippman]

I just entered with you talking about him snorting cocaine off of toilet bowls.

[Melissa Murray]

I'm just gonna say I found this week to be an absolute like just whirlwind of men putting things in the group chat that didn't need to be there. Like I didn't need to.

[Kate Shaw]

There were women too. No, Pamela Joabondi was also there.

[Melissa Murray]

She was there. But the Olympian who admitted to cheating on his girlfriend, like, that's.

[Leah Lippman]

Oh, that was incredible. That was an incredible moment. But like Pam, Joe Bondi, portfolios over pedos like that.

[Kate Shaw]

I'm so sorry you weren't here.

[Melissa Murray]

We got to play that men. I did not need to know this about RFK Jr. There's so many things you could probably snort cocaine off of. Why toilet seats? You're a Kennedy, for God's sake.

[Kate Shaw]

You have to strengthens the immune system. Melissa, I think is the point he was making.

[Leah Lippman]

Sorry, but Jinx Monsoon, the Drag Queen has the greatest segment about snorting cocaine off of things in the All Star season. If you haven't watched this is recalls Drag Queen.

[Kate Shaw]

Is the toilet seat a recommended surface?

[Leah Lippman]

It's not, but I'm not going to identify what is because this is a family friendly podcast. Not today. Also. Hello, listeners. I just joined because I'm recording from Duke. Thank you very much to the Duke Law School for setting up a recording studio for me.

[Kate Shaw]

We really missed you in the first hour, but I'm so glad you're here for the end. Things got a little off the rails. So we were actually talking about Doug Burgum, who had taken to the airwaves reassuring everybody that carbon dioxide is not a pollutant. And Melissa had her wires crossed and said that Burgum said it's okay you can snort carbon dioxide.

[Melissa Murray]

I didn't say, I just speculated that maybe you could. I didn't say he said that. I said maybe something you could sort off a toilet seat.

[Leah Lippman]

Be like a little bit tough to get an exhaust pipe, like over the toilet seat, like, logistically.

[Kate Shaw]

Oh, come on, dream bigger, Leah.

[Leah Lippman]

Ah, okay, okay.

[Melissa Murray]

I mean, if you can send a man to the moon, what else can't this country do?

[Leah Lippman]

That's fair. That's fair.

[Melissa Murray]

Don't, don't you skimp on America, Leah. Be a patriot.

[Kate Shaw]

We can do that. All right, but so wrapping the endangerment finding repeal, just like the, the, the horror show of this last week is really a lot to encapsulate in a single hour. But you just, you know, the endangerment finding repeal, the fact that the im. Immediate revocation of the emissions, the vehicle emission standards, follow that and the groundwork for all of the other, like, horrible things they're going to do on this basis, and you add that to the apparent Paris Agreement withdrawal, the underlying climate treaty withdrawal, it is just kind of impossible to get your head around the devastation that this administration is wreaking on the planet in addition to, you know, our focus, the havoc it is wreaking on the United States Constitution. But the damage goes way, way beyond that document. And one last quick beat on climate change. This is not like the biggest deal in the world, but it is just their dogged focus on implementing their mission in every nook and cranny of the federal government and our collective lives is almost something that you have to salute because the henchmen of this administration seem to have noticed that there is a discussion in a manual produced by the Federal Judicial center for judges that talks about climate change. To sort of help judges resolve climate change cases, given the complex scientific background of some of these cases. And the henchmen of this administration successfully bullied the Federal Judicial center into removing that chapter from the manual. Great job all.

[Leah Lippman]

But like, what did they get in return? Because they're still shitting all over the lower federal courts and they are still not upping the funds to provide the lower federal courts with additional security, so.

[Melissa Murray]

Oh, I'm not.

[Kate Shaw]

They're not. This is a terrible deal for the judicial side.

[Leah Lippman]

Oh, no, I know. I just. I want to know, like, why, why, why did you obey?

[Kate Shaw]

Yep.

[Melissa Murray]

Master negotiator John G. Roberts, head of the Federal Judicial Center. All right. I also want to take a beat and talk about some of the fallout from the Supreme Court's decision in SFFA versus Harvard. That decision was announced listeners in 2023, and it prohibited the use of race conscious admissions in college admissions processes. And race conscious admissions processes are those where you explicitly consider race. Right. Well, the third Circuit decided to have a word. It struck down the race neutral measure that was aimed increasing diversity in selective Philadelphia area schools. The case involved a challenge to an admissions policy that introduced six preferred zip codes. Students who resided in the six zip codes and who met school district's new criteria were admitted automatically to any of the four most coveted schools to which they applied. Students who met the criteria from other districts were then entered into a lottery. And five of the six zip codes had a majority black and Hispanic population.

[Leah Lippman]

So the third Circuit concluded that, quote, viewing the record in the light most favorable to the parents, there is sufficient evidence for a reasonable fact finder to conclude that the admissions policy had a discriminatory purpose and impact requiring strict scrutiny. End quote. Note that here the discriminatory purpose seems to be the desire to constitute a racially diverse student body. And that the collapsing those motives with race conscious measures is part of what we were so concerned about in the aftermath of sffa.

[Melissa Murray]

Even thinking about diversity is against the law.

[Leah Lippman]

Yeah, the word woke is going through my mind and apparently I am in unconstitutional. Exactly. Very unconstitutional.

[Melissa Murray]

This was race neutral. It did not consider race at all. Prescribe these zip codes. And here's the thing. If you don't want the zip codes to correlate with race, stop redlining or doing residential segregation. Yeah, try that.

[Leah Lippman]

Right, exactly.

[Kate Shaw]

Unless you do want them to correlate with race and you just don't want anybody to be able to do anything to actually desegregate schools, which I think is basically.

[Melissa Murray]

That seems to be the possibility.

[Leah Lippman]

The Way to stop discriminating on the basis of race is to discriminate on the basis of race in housing.

[Melissa Murray]

Yeah, right.

[Leah Lippman]

Yeah, that's how that quote works.

[Melissa Murray]

This is very much like the Thomas Jefferson High School case that the Supreme Court denied cert on. But obviously, even though they declined to take up that case for review, this issue is coming back before the court. And I know that America's wokest warrior, Clarence Thomas is going to have a lot to say about the history of redlining and residential segregation. Can't wait for to it it.

[Leah Lippman]

Yeah. Speaking of things we can't wait for, babe, new Heritage foundation track just dropped.

[Kate Shaw]

And wake up.

[Melissa Murray]

Guess what?

[Leah Lippman]

It's a doozy, right? In addition to coming for multiracial democracy, they are coming for the slivers of sex equality and gender equality that we have.

[Melissa Murray]

Because the Heritage foundation, they're coming for your birthday control. They're coming for your jobs and they're coming for your uterus, your ability to.

[Leah Lippman]

Wear pants, go to school, have short hair, have a credit card.

[Kate Shaw]

Sneakers are probably not okay.

[Leah Lippman]

Open a bank account in your own name. Probably talk, probably have thoughts. Vote, vote.

[Kate Shaw]

I think run for office.

[Leah Lippman]

A rough cut.

[Melissa Murray]

Yeah, yeah.

[Representative Jayapal]

So.

[Leah Lippman]

So the Heritage foundation, which of course is the artist that brought US Project 2025, released its 250 year roadmap to quote, save America, end quote. Because Project 2025 apparently wasn't enough and they have more to do. So this pamphlet is very clear. They are coming for your birth control. Among other things, too. Ladies, also, I would just like to note, note that in the very first Trump administration, I posted on Facebook, ladies, go out and gather birth control. Get an iud. Stock up, because they are coming for it. And everybody freaked the F out on me and was like, you're fear mongering girl.

[Melissa Murray]

And you were a Cassandra. You were a prophet.

[Leah Lippman]

It's not that hard. They hate women.

[Melissa Murray]

No. So let's talk about this. The report is ostensibly concerned with flagging birth rates. Rates, at least among certain populations. I can tell you the populations they don't want to have rising birth rates and whom they don't care are not having babies. The report also notes, quote, several factors conspire to reduce birth rates. Here's one. A lack of paid family leave.

[Kate Shaw]

Nope.

[Melissa Murray]

Just ripping.

[Kate Shaw]

Not actually one of them.

[Melissa Murray]

It actually wasn't. That was me just like putting my Heritage foundation hat on and thinking, what does actually contribute to a flagging birth rate?

[Leah Lippman]

Student loan stereotypes about who's responsible for family care.

[Melissa Murray]

Sex stereotypes, Burdensome student loans, lack of Paid family leave, gender wage gap. Anyway, so the factors, though, that the report did call out, not the ones we just mentioned, that need to be addressed include, quote, the proliferation of birth control, more prospects for women to receive higher education and work outside of the home home, the delayed financial independence of young adults, and the government's role in old age. Social Security, trad wives, older people, they're coming for all of your stuff. Like, again, I cannot emphasize this enough. Law and culture work in tandem. This trad wife's thing that they're doing, this is not inadvertent. It's not a coincidence. They are trying to emphasize to young women that the whole thing, feminist project was a ruse, that women are not better off. In fact, they're exhausted and tired and they're trying to juggle having it all, and it's bad. And what you really just want to do is go back to the home and raise your children without all these worries. And that's actually a better life. Here's the thing, ladies. You can actually have it all if the government actually creates structural opportunities for you to do so. Like the paid family leave, like not paying you less than what a man makes, like not giving you a wage gap when you have a baby. There are so many fucking things that could happen that could make all of this happen. So you could have a job and a family and not have to choose between one or the other. Ask me how I know.

[Leah Lippman]

You know, on the other hand, we really have made considerable strides in sex equality, given that this week we learned that apparently a woman is allowed to fire a pilot after they fail to take. That was my favorite thing. Leah, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.

[Kate Shaw]

But you also missed us talking about the fact that it wasn't even a cozy earth blanket as far as we know.

[Leah Lippman]

Oh, my gosh, yes. Of course it wasn't. They have no taste. They have no taste.

[Kate Shaw]

No, no.

[Melissa Murray]

We're gonna get.

[Leah Lippman]

We will get.

[Kate Shaw]

Great.

[Leah Lippman]

I'm so happy.

[Kate Shaw]

Okay, so that is it for the news. It does feel like it has been an even more insane week than usual, but both with the executive branch just really ratcheting it up, but also with both some of the Democrats in Congress and many lower court judges actually fighting back. I mean, we talked about this a little bit before you came on, Leah, but it's like we had obviously a number of really important rulings from lower court judges, and some of them are just talking in a different register than courts typically do. And it does feel like they are talking to all of us because they have sort of lost faith in the people above them that they might be talking to. Because I don't know what's going to happen with a lot of these district court orders. And I think that they realize that. And some of it is, you know, still really sober and serious. But it does feel like there's been like a semantic and maybe substantive shift in, in just like what we are seeing from the lower courts. And it's really, really important. Anyway, so all of that has happened without welcome friends.

[Leah Lippman]

Welcome friends.

[Kate Shaw]

But SCOTUS is back shortly. There are opinions scheduled or at least possible this coming Friday. Arguments start back up on Monday the 23rd. So unless we have any emergency episodes before the then we will be back in your ears with a February preview on Monday the 23rd. So now let's talk about our favorite things. Okay. We've already also referenced the Benito bowl halftime show. It was incredible. I watched it obviously in real time and then maybe two or three times since and have been listening incessantly to his sort of whole back catalog, which is really extensive over the last week. It's the anthem. It's amazing. David Pressman and Arne Duncan had a great op ed in the Washington Post. Universities are sending Trump a dangerous message that is really about obviously, obviously just the importance of solidarity and collective action, but also about how universities have to some degree fought back. I saw a push notification that I.

[Melissa Murray]

Guess not all of them.

[Kate Shaw]

The administration is suing Harvard right now. Definitely not all them. Plenty of capitulated. This is something that we have written about. But some are fighting back. But even where there's fighting back happening, the argument in this op ed is that at some instances it's been too legalistic a response. There needs to be a political response as well as a legal response. And the legal response is not enough. So I thought that was really powerful. Two more things. I finally read historian Joanne Friedman's Field.

[Melissa Murray]

Of Blood, which was she was my TA in college.

[Kate Shaw]

She is amazing. I also actually listened to it and she reads it. Is her voice as just like Melissa and like hypnotic that. Okay, so it seems like it in the audiobook. Anyway, it was kind of wild to read that the week of Pamela Jakmandi's truly unhinged appearance in Congress. And then I will just say, melissa, Leah, you're going to talk about this. But I too read with my jaw in the basement of my house the story in the Wall Street Journal about Kristi Noem and Corey Lewandowski. And if you haven't Read it, Run, get a gift link, subscribe, whatever you have to do. Read the story. I'm done.

[Leah Lippman]

Okay, so I'm gonna plus one several of those recommendations, including Benito bowl and the Wall Street Journal story. I will not steal. Melissa, you thunder on this since I may have accidentally already done so. So I will list three others. Four others. Jamelle Bouie's piece We have to look right in the face of what we've become in the New York Times, underscoring the importance of even assuming the they actually do a full drawdown in Minnesota. We can't just let that slide. We need an accounting. We've referenced this before, something like a Truth and Reconciliation commission. That is extremely important. Second, Nicole Hannah Jones what It Means to Be a White Race Traitor in the New York Magazine is a very searing look contextualizing the commentary and treatment of Renee, Nicole Goode and Alex Preddy in a long history of attacking white Americans who deign to challenge racial subordination. Third, Heather Ann Thompson's new book, Fear and Fury, I thought was just a terrific read. I absolutely loved it. And finally, as I mentioned a bit ago, I am at Duke Law for a symposium they are holding and I am absolutely loving it. I met several stricties in the wild, so I wanted to give special shouts out to Emma, Gabby, Zoe, Skyler and also the team at the Duke Law Journal who put together this symposium and accepted our article. This is the legalistic non compliance piece that I wrote with Dan Deacon that we've talked about a little bit before. Claudia, Jared, Avery, Dani and others. It's just been a really wonderful time here.

[Kate Shaw]

Awesome.

[Melissa Murray]

All right, I would like to shout out a new podcast. It's from front of the Pod and former guest Simone Sanders Townsend and Eugene Daniels, and it's called Clock it and it is about the intersection of politics and culture. And whew, it is a breezy, rollicking ride. I love, love, loved it. In addition to Simone and Eugene's new podcast, I also want to call out another podcast and this one is from the Crooked network. It is of course our brother show Pod Save America, but it's a particular episode, this one with perhaps our favorite pod bro. I feel weird saying that, knowing that Lovett is probably listening, but Tommy Viator had a terrific conversation on Pod Save America with Pablo Torre about the way in which the Trump administration uses sports and in particular UFC and mixed martial arts to curry favor and cultivate the maniverse. And I didn't know anything about UFC or mixed martial arts, but this I thought was really, really interesting and compelling and just a great listen all the way around. Well done, Tomi.

[Kate Shaw]

And can I just say, Pablo in general sort of has a bunch of different platforms and is doing, I think, really important work in noting that the right kind of owns not just the sort of martial arts world that you're talking about, Melissa, but just like kind of sports more broadly. And it's so culturally important and powerful and he is doing the work of kind of infusing it with a different kind of politics and I just really respect what he's doing. So Tommy's wonderful and he's our most recent guest, but we're fond of all, to be clear. I don't know, Melissa.

[Melissa Murray]

I don't. I. I mean, just, I think they have to prove it to us. Like we did not get to go down under, as it were.

[Kate Shaw]

Melissa. Salty that we were not just in.

[Melissa Murray]

Australia or New Zealand for that matter.

[Kate Shaw]

Did they go to both?

[Melissa Murray]

I don't know. They were down under. Okay. All I know. All right. Any day. All right. My last favorite thing, and this is one that's been teased, so thank you, Leah and Kate. It's not just congress that's given us a glimpse of housewife behavior. Even the Wall street journal has gotten into the act. So last week the Wall street journal had an article titled a pilot fired over Kristi Noem's missing blanket and the constant chaos inside the dhs. Well, this was about a time when Kristi Noemi and Corey Lewandowski were on a plane and then they got off the plane and then they forgot Christie's blanket and then they couldn't find Christy's blanket. So they fired the pilot because the pilot didn't find them. Christie's blanket. And then they realized they were stuck somewhere without a plane to fly them back, so they had to rehire the pilot. And you just can't make this stuff up. But the thing that I found especially interesting was the salacious detail that follows. So, quote the journal says after photos in the daily mail showed Lewandowski going back and forth between his apartment and no gnomes across the street. Last year, the secretary moved into a government owned waterfront house on a military base in Washington that is provided to the leader of the U. S. Coast guard. The coast guard falls under gnomes purview at DHS during peacetime. Lewandowski also spends time at the house. The DHS spokesperson said no move to the house for increased security and pays rent. Lewandowski and Noam, who are both married, have publicly denied the Reports of an affair. But people said they'd do little to hide their relationship inside the department. The DHS spokeswoman said the department doesn't waste time with salacious and baseless gossip. Well, luckily I do.

[Kate Shaw]

I mean, I just, there's just a little more we have to talk about this story for another.

[Melissa Murray]

Wait, wait. I just want to say one thing. How are you going to put in project 2025 how you're going to destroy no Fault Divorce when this is going on? This is exactly what no Fault divorce was made for.

[Kate Shaw]

For. They don't have to get divorced. They can just carry on as they are. It works. It works great.

[Melissa Murray]

I mean, the spouses have the opportunity to do the funniest thing ever.

[Leah Lippman]

Oh, yeah.

[Kate Shaw]

I, I, I just, I don't know who the many sources for this Wall Street Journal triple bylines piece were, but maybe spouses. Certainly many people in the administration talked to these reporters. The knives are clear.

[Melissa Murray]

Maybe you need some np. John Roberts can help here. Walk across the street, go to the court.

[Kate Shaw]

When you're as hated as these two clearly are, I don't think any NDA is gonna make a difference.

[Leah Lippman]

This is just, I'm just so glad these two loathsome trolls may have found one another.

[Melissa Murray]

There is a lid for every pot, really.

[Kate Shaw]

Yes, it is. Yeah, it is. In addition to the blanket story that Melissa told and the sort of, you know, the walking that was like literally.

[Melissa Murray]

The least of them.

[Kate Shaw]

Yeah, it is. Just counting Tom Homan appearances on television, comparing them to gnomes appearances.

[Melissa Murray]

Who's the real Border Czarina?

[Leah Lippman]

It's me.

[Kate Shaw]

Lewandowski's efforts to obtain not just credentials, but a firearm to carry. I mean, it is, it is. And this was kind of maybe clear in the excerpt that Melissa just read, but it's just wild revelation after wild revelation followed by this, like very perfunctory non denial denial from the DHS spokesperson. Like they're not even really trying to dispute any of this.

[Melissa Murray]

Just salacious, baseless gossip that I love.

[Kate Shaw]

Yes, we all love it.

[Melissa Murray]

We love it, too.

[Kate Shaw]

It actually really sparked joy this week in a really challenging week. And so thank you to the Wall Street Journal. I mean, Murdoch occasionally gives us a real. He really gives us.

[Leah Lippman]

Solid.

[Kate Shaw]

This was one.

[Melissa Murray]

This, this was solid. This was good.

[Kate Shaw]

This was good. And there is actually one more favorite thing that I kind of want to offer up as a collective favorite thing.

[Leah Lippman]

Yes.

[Kate Shaw]

Which is the campaign of Democrat Jessica Bickler for the North Carolina State Senate seat in District 7 in New Hanover County, North Carolina. Carolina. Jessica, we were so excited to learn that you were a strict scrutiny listener and that the show played a part in your decision to run for the State Senate. Jessica heard about Vote Save America's candidate recruitment program on our show and filled out an online form not knowing where it would lead and is now running for again North Carolina State Senate District 7 to try to break the Republican super majority and flip New Hanover county blue. Jessica, we're so excited you're running. Listeners, figure out how you can help support Jessica. This is just like really, really exciting and we're gonna follow this race closely and Jessica, you are one of our very favorite things this week.

[Melissa Murray]

Okay, housekeeping listeners, guess what? We are less than a month away. We're actually exactly three weeks away from seeing you live and in person on the best coast. If you haven't gotten your tickets yet for our LA show at the Palace Theater on March 6th 7th, what are you waiting for? John Lovett will drive you there himself. Ask me how I know he won't. He probably won't, but it's going to be so amazing. LA is one of our favorite cities. We love the west Coast. We are going to have so much fun. It's actually going to be unhinged you if you haven't seen one of your shows.

[Leah Lippman]

We promise not to leave our blankets in San Francisco.

[Melissa Murray]

We won't. We also promise not to shoot any dogs while we're out there. It's going to be great though. We are going to be doing the absolute most in San Francisco and then on to LA. You can get your tickets at cricket.com forward/event. So do not wait. Do this now. It's going to be so much fun. We can't wait to see you.

[Kate Shaw]

Strict Scrutiny is a crooked media production hosted and executive produced by Leah Lippman, Melissa Murray and me, Kate Shaw. Our senior producer and editor is Melody Rowell. Michael Goldsmith is our producer. Jordan Thomas is our intern. Music by Eddie Cooper. Production support from Katie Long and Adrienne Hill. Matt De Groat is our head of production. Thanks to our video team, Ben Hethcote and Johanna Case, our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. If you haven't already, be sure to subscribe to Strict Scrutiny in your favorite podcast app and on YouTube. Strict Scrutiny Podcast so you never miss an episode. And if you want to help other people find the show, please rate and review us. It really help.

[Friend of the Pod / Crooked Media Host]

If you guys like POD Save America, please consider subscribing to our friends at the POD program so Friends of the POD get lots of stuff. You get more POD Save America. That includes our new show which is called POD Save America. Only friends, it's where Dan gets naked, where Dan gets full frontal nudity. But mostly it's a bi weekly subscription exclusive podcast that is basically POD Save America but behind a paywall so it's a little bit looser and more fun. Fun and it's love it. And Favreau and me and Pfeiffer and then other crooked hosts, we go deeper on the news and cover more stories. You also get open Tabs, which is a weekly behind the scenes newsletter from the show. Plus you get ad free episodes of your favorite crooked podcasts and all kinds of other stuff. Dan will come to your house and clean it once every quarter.

[Kate Shaw]

Yeah, clothes.

[Friend of the Pod / Crooked Media Host]

Dan is very busy. Clothed only. But along with just getting great content. Becoming a friend of the pod joining our subscription community is the number one thing you can do to help us grow grow to help independent progressive media. So if you're ever thought about doing it, if you ever wanted more pod save America, consider going to crooked.com friends and becoming a friend of the podcast.