Something Wicked This Way Comes: A SCOTUS Term Preview

Summary

Strict Scrutiny: Something Wicked This Way Comes—a SCOTUS Term Preview

Podcast: Strict Scrutiny by Crooked Media
Episode Date: October 6, 2025
Hosts: Leah Litman, Melissa Murray, Kate Shaw
Special Guest: Lt. Governor Juliana Stratton (Illinois; U.S. Senate Candidate)
Summary of Content: In this live episode from Chicago, the hosts preview the upcoming Supreme Court term, offer sharp, humorous, and deeply insightful commentary on key themes and cases, and discuss the federal government’s ongoing attacks on civil liberties and constitutional norms. The episode features in-depth analysis, a special guest interview with Lt. Gov. Juliana Stratton, and a SCOTUS pop-culture game in honor of John Roberts’ 20 years as Chief Justice.

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Main Theme & Purpose

The episode serves as a big-picture preview of the Supreme Court’s 2025-26 term against the backdrop of an increasingly authoritarian federal government, a Supreme Court supermajority amassing power and undermining precedent, and live updates from the heart of the legal and political battleground—Chicago. The hosts stress that many momentous decisions are made on the “shadow docket” and that the traditional term preview understates the breadth and gravity of the Court’s current impact. The tone is irreverent, urgent, and mobilizing.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Eating Out of the SCOTUS Trash: Debrief of the Shadow Docket (04:09)

• Leah, Melissa, and Kate revisit troubling “shadow docket” decisions released during the summer, including:
  • The court allowing racial profiling by federal agents (05:13).
  • Permitting withholding of $4 billion in foreign aid, suspending the separation of powers (05:41).
  • Blessing the administration’s efforts to dismantle the Department of Education and fire key federal regulators (05:56).
• Notable Quote:
  “So, with that in mind, and in the spirit of a Brett Kavanaugh listicle, I am going to tick through some of the bullet points of this summer…” —Melissa Murray (05:38)
• Discussion of an upcoming case possibly allowing Trump to fully politicize the Federal Reserve Board by firing Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook (06:20).

2. The Supreme Court's Shadow Docket: Beyond the Merits (14:13)

• Explainer: Many impactful cases are decided through non-traditional, expedited processes, making the typical “term preview” incomplete.
• The shadow docket is described as “possibly the most important part of the Court’s docket right now” (Melissa Murray, 14:42).
• The docket is increasingly a vehicle for aggression against minority rights, the administrative state, and checks on executive power.

3. Major Cases to Watch in 2025–26 (15:50)

• Birthright Citizenship: Potential for the Court to decide whether the 14th Amendment’s grant of birthright citizenship can be rescinded (15:16).
• Presidential Power: Cases involving Trump’s authority to fire federal regulatory officials, including members of the Federal Trade Commission and the Federal Reserve (15:00).
• Voting Rights Act: In Louisiana v. Kelly, the Court will consider whether it’s unconstitutional to use race as a remedy for voting discrimination under the VRA’s Section 2 (17:11).
  • Brett Kavanaugh’s Theory: The VRA was okay for a “limited period,” but “time’s up” (18:57).
• Transgender Rights & Title IX: Consolidated cases (Little v. Hecox, West Virginia v. BPJ) that may allow or require discrimination against trans athletes/separate gender identity (21:55).
• Conversion Therapy Bans: Childs v. Salazar challenges Colorado’s ban on conversion therapy for minors. The Court may use First Amendment theory to side with “Christian therapists” (23:07).
• Second Amendment: Wolford v. Lopez (24:16), challenging presumptive concealed carry bans on private property.
• Campaign Finance: National Republican Senatorial Committee challenges coordination limits between political parties and candidates (28:08).

4. Emergent Legal Themes (16:20–24:46)

• Expiration Date for Civil Rights: Conservative justices, while claiming “originalism,” seem poised to cast aside the 14th and 15th Amendments’ protections, particularly concerning racial equity and voting rights.
  • “Instead of living Constitutionalism, it’s dying Constitutionalism.” —Melissa Murray (21:05)
• Weaponizing the First Amendment:
  • Anticipation that religious free speech will be used to undermine public health and equality protections (26:14).

5. Court Culture & Stare Decisis (35:10–41:03)

• Clarence Thomas Watch: Thomas critiques precedent, saying, “If it’s totally stupid, you don’t go along with it” (37:38).
• Host Commentary: “They are going to go full on jarcassy on the entire legal canon... making arguments that people were unwilling to make because they either had a sense of shame or an intellect that exceeded Brett Kavanaugh’s.” —Leah Litman (39:54)
• Kaganism: Justice Kagan calls out the Court’s sudden willingness to overturn what were (until recently) uncontested legal norms (40:20).

6. Federal Overreach, ICE Raids, and Chicago as a Battleground (50:08–54:55)

• ICE & Immigration Enforcement:
  • Detailed, chilling account of racial profiling and abusive ICE raids recently in Chicago, including “Kavanaugh stops” (53:07), coined by Prof. Anil Kahan.
  • Reports of residents—U.S. citizens—being detained, children removed from their parents, and Blackhawk helicopters used in residential neighborhoods (53:07–54:55).
  • Notable Narrative: “He was left tied up outside the building for almost three hours … Another resident said she saw kids dragged out of the building without clothes on and into U-Haul vans…” —Kate Shaw (52:19)

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Special Guest Interview: Lt. Governor Juliana Stratton (54:55–73:36)

Key Topics:

• State Resistance to Authoritarian Federal Action:
  • Stratton contrasts Illinois’ proactive defense of abortion rights and LGBTQ rights (61:00), emphasizing state action and legislative preemption.
• Federalized National Guard Threats:
  • Stratton recounts the administration threatening to federalize the Guard unless Illinois complies with deployment orders; she and Gov. Pritzker say, “Hell, no” (58:55).
  • “This is about a president, a wannabe dictator, who sees American people, fellow Americans, as the enemy and wants to normalize the presence of military troops on American soil.” —Juliana Stratton (59:10)
• What Should the Opposition Party Do?
  • “Americans don't want to see Democrats confirming judges that have no business sitting on the bench... It’s to push our party to be courageous in this moment. That's what we need.” (63:34)
• SCOTUS Ratings:
  • “We have a Supreme Court right now that is rubber stamping this president’s authoritarian agenda. And quite frankly, it is dangerous.” —Stratton (65:46)
• Litigation as Resistance:
  • “We are filing cases … and we are winning. …When we resist, when we fight back, …we see [Trump] start to change course.” (67:57)
• Note of Hope:
  • Stratton is inspired by continued public protest: “Every time I walk into a space and someone is still there … I get filled back up. …My dad, who marched from Selma to Montgomery in 1965, used to say… ‘I would stand up and be counted.’” (71:34)

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Game Segment: “Two Truths and a Lie—John Roberts Edition” (76:03)

Hilarious and revealing facts and not-facts about Chief Justice Roberts, with participation from the audience. Insights include:

• Roberts’ nicknames, educational trivia, and conduct as Chief Justice.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “New Year, same BS.” —Leah Litman (06:20)
• “[The justices] have one set of rules for right wingers, reactionaries, and the mega rich, and another set for everyone else.” —Leah Litman (27:31)
• “Instead of living Constitutionalism, it’s dying Constitutionalism.” —Melissa Murray (21:05)
• “We have a Supreme Court right now that is rubber-stamping this president’s authoritarian agenda. And quite frankly, it is dangerous.” —Lt. Gov. Juliana Stratton (65:46)
• “If it’s totally stupid, you don’t go along with it.” —Clarence Thomas, quoted by Leah Litman (37:38)
• “We might need a factory reset.” —Melissa Murray (10:37)
• “No more politically correct and overbearing rules of engagement.” —President and Secretary Hegseth, played before the Stratton interview (57:30)
• “He said that I would stand up and be counted. And that is the moment we are all in right now.” —Juliana Stratton on her father’s civil rights activism (72:08)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:33] Start of SCOTUS term—reflections and fatigue
• [04:09] Review of recent shadow docket atrocities
• [13:26] John Roberts game segment intro and milestone reflections
• [14:13] The limitations of a term preview; rise of the shadow docket
• [15:50] Major cases (birthright citizenship, FTC, Federal Reserve cases)
• [17:11] Deep dive: Voting Rights Act and racial remedies
• [21:55] Trans lit, Equal Protection, and Title IX
• [23:07] Conversion therapy ban challenge (First Amendment)
• [24:16] Big new Second Amendment case
• [32:03] Theme: Will the Court “peek behind the curtain” of government pretext?
• [35:10] Clarence Thomas on precedent; stare decisis for suckers
• [40:20] Kagan oral argument moment; the death of unchallenged legal norms
• [50:08] Chicago immigration and ICE crisis, “Kavanaugh stops”
• [54:55] Interview: Lt. Governor Juliana Stratton
• [76:03] Game: Two Truths and a Lie—John Roberts Edition

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Overall Tone & Language

Smart, funny, irreverent, and deeply engaged with both legal argument and activist energy. Hosts don’t shy away from explicit language, sharp critique, or personal insight. Occasional pop culture asides (Taylor Swift, etc.).

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Final Section: Favorite Things & Uplift (87:31+)

• Book, music, and media recommendations—including Leah’s nuanced take on Taylor Swift’s new album, Kate’s reflections on journalism in Chicago, and Melissa’s recommendation for the off-Broadway play “Mexico.”
• Shoutouts to activists, friends, and family in the audience.
• Closing notes of hope and continued resistance: standing up, being counted, and passing on the activist baton.

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In Summary

This episode provides a rich, no-holds-barred analysis of what’s at stake as the Supreme Court term opens: the rollback of civil rights, unchecked presidential power, and the rapid erosion of legal precedent—all in “real time.” The mix of legal breakdowns, humor, historic context, and on-the-ground reporting is essential listening for anyone trying to understand the stakes for our democracy and how to organize, resist, and hope in the face of adversity.

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For Listeners

If you haven’t tuned in, this episode captures the spirit, urgency, and depth of Strict Scrutiny at its best—illuminating, fortifying, and activating for law nerds, democracy defenders, and anyone anxious about the state of constitutional rights in 2025.

Transcript

[Narrator/Ad Reader]

Strict scrutiny is brought to you by.

[Leah Littman]

Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

[Narrator/Ad Reader]

You don't destroy 250 years of secular democracy without gutting precedent, shattering norms and dropping a few billion. The same people and groups that backed Project 2025 are part of a larger shadow network that's relentlessly pushing to impose a Christian nationalist agenda on our laws and lives. Church state separation is the bulwark blocking their agenda. One of the last bastions of church state separation is our public school system. So they're pushing vouchers everywhere, arguing for religious public schools. Yes, you heard that right. Religious public schools at the Supreme Court in a case that was on the court's docket from last term that we talked about on the podcast. If you're listening to us, you're seeing the writing on the wall. We can, we must fight back. Join Americans United for Separation of Church and State and their growing movement. Because church state separation protects us all. Learn more and get [e-mail] Crooked Mr.

[Leah Littman]

Chief justice, please support. It's an old joke, but when I argue man argues against two beautiful ladies like this, they're going to have the last word.

[Juliana Stratton]

She spoke not elegantly, but with unmistakable clarity. She said, I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.

[Melissa Murray]

Hello, Chicago. You look really fantastic. Not at all like a second city. I think you are the first city tonight. We are so excited to be here. We are Strict scrutiny. Your podcast about the Supreme Court and the legal culture that surrounds it, AKA.

[Leah Littman]

The life of a SCOTUS podcast live show girl. We are your hosts live from Chicago. I'm Leah Littman.

[Melissa Murray]

And I'm Alyssa Murray.

[Kate Shaw]

And I'm Kate Shaw. And Chicago we are. We are so delighted to be here in my beloved hometown. And we are very appreciative of the warm welcome you all have given us. A much warmer welcome than you all have given some other interlopers who have descended on this fair city.

[Melissa Murray]

Some people don't know how to be good guests.

[Kate Shaw]

That's all I'm saying. They do not. And yes, later in the show, we are going to talk about the outrageous conduct of some federal officials who are ostensibly enforcing immigration laws, but are actually terrorizing the population and the way Chicago and Illinois are responding. But even in these grim circumstances, it is wonderful to be here. It is wonderful to be with my co hosts on stage. We don't get to be together in person all that often. It is great to be with all of you. Our friends, the Ones with matching scars. This is not going to be the only Taylor Swift reference you will hear this evening.

[Leah Littman]

So again, we are so happy to be here. Midwest is best. We are somewhat less delighted about the occasion, which, of course, is the start of a new SCOTUS term.

[Melissa Murray]

Wait, wait, wait. Did the old term end?

[Kate Shaw]

Yes, you can hiss. Yes.

[Melissa Murray]

When did the old term end?

[Leah Littman]

So in order to set the stage for the new term, we have to look at SCOTUS terms past. We call this eating out of the trash.

[Melissa Murray]

Yes, we are just little SCOTUS raccoons. Seriously, this last term was like the 1980s movie, the never ending SCOTUS term. That is a deep cut for you Gen Xers. We sat through so many bad decisions. Scarmetti Mahmoud versus Taylor. And that was all before we were inundated by the cruel summer of the shadow docket decisions where this court gave this administration's lawlessness win after win after win. And so, with that in mind, and in the spirit of a Brett Kavanaugh listicle, I am going to tick through some of the bullet points of this summer. So first, the court, with little or no explanation, allowed the federal government to one stop and detain people because of their race and the language that they speak. We call this racial profiling. It used to be bad, used to be unlawful, but now apparently, okay. The court also allowed the federal government to withhold $4 billion in foreign aid funds that had been previously appropriated by Congress. We would have called that a separation of powers, but that is a bad thing right now. We also saw the court bless the administration's efforts to dismantle the Department of Education. We also saw this court allow this administration to fire top federal regulators who do things like protect consumers, ensure that products are safe, guarantee that labor laws. Wait for it. Protect workers. Yeah, it's been a big summer. And don't worry, there are more petitions and more applications pending, including one that could hand Donald Trump the power to truly wreck the global economy by fully politicizing the Federal Reserve Board. So they are going to hear oral argument on that matter and in January. And what can I say? Like so many things in January, we'll be wild.

[Leah Littman]

New Year, same bs. Just a quick explainer on the Federal Reserve thing. The court has allowed Trump to fire basically every official Trump wants to fire in violation of federal law, as litigation challenging those firings is ongoing. And in their initial opinion announcing this magical new rule, they kind of said every official except the Fed, because the justices and many of the conservative overlords that have shaped this court have investment accounts, and I protect the family. 401k.

[Melissa Murray]

She's going to be like this all night long. All night.

[Leah Littman]

I only had three cookies.

[Kate Shaw]

So, as Leah and Melissa both said, the court will actually hear arguments on this Federal Reserve issue in January. The underlying issue is whether Trump can fire Lisa Cook, a governor on the Federal Reserve Board. But what they're hearing in January is actually just technically oral argument on the stay application. The court did not definitively deny Trump the ability to fire Cook while the litigation is ongoing regarding the lawfulness of her purported firing. They just decided they needed to hear oral argument on that question before resolving the stay application. So this does have the effect of allowing Cook to keep her job for at least a few months. But this isn't really a big mark in the Trump is dealt a loss at the Supreme Court column. It's just a delay for the court to actually consider the stay application.

[Melissa Murray]

So what Kate is saying is, are we out of the woods yet? No. No, we are not. Because when this court typically migrates a stay application from the shadow docket to the merits docket, usually the party seeking the stay, which is often the federal government, prevails more often than not. So, for example, here we are pretty much primed to see another victory, maybe for the court.

[Kate Shaw]

I don't know here. I think this one, they're genuinely cross pressured here.

[Melissa Murray]

Yes. I mean, the 401ks, well, they want.

[Kate Shaw]

Those, but they also want the presidential power. And so this is the cross pressure.

[Melissa Murray]

Oh, so hard. Yeah. Yeah, so hard.

[Kate Shaw]

Right. So having kicked the can, at least for now, while they decide how to resolve this cross pressure, the court did apparently feel the need to squeeze one last bad decision in before the end of the last term. So on Friday night, the court issued yet another shadow docket order allowing the administration to cancel temporary protected status for Venezuelan migrants. Temporary? Yes. Temporary Protected status, or tps, gives individuals legal authorization to remain and work in the United States when conditions in their countries of origin warrant it.

[Leah Littman]

Another Friday night drop is the Supreme Court in their showgirl era. Sorry, I had to. You know, the court's order in this case is filled with a big fat lie. They said they had previously resolved this matter, referring to to their stay of a preliminary injunction in the case. But as the Court of Appeals noted, this isn't the same case that existed at the preliminary stage, because now courts have reviewed this thing called evidence. The Supreme Court obviously not familiar with the concept.

[Kate Shaw]

So all three Democratic appointees noted their dissent in this order, but only Justice Jackson actually issued a written opinion and so that was only for herself. And it's worth quoting a couple of sentences from. So she closed with this quote. This court plainly misjudges the irreparable harm and balance of the equities factors by privileging the bald assertion of unconstrained executive power over countless families pleas for the stability our government has promised them.

[Leah Littman]

So I kind of thought we were in a government shutdown and we only.

[Melissa Murray]

Shut down the good parts.

[Leah Littman]

Well, that stinks. I would hope that it would shut down these guys too. Or at least the shadow docket. Or if it doesn't merit a full shutdown, maybe just unplugging and replugging the cord back in to see if that fixes things.

[Melissa Murray]

We might need a factory reset.

[Leah Littman]

Alas, there is no rest for the wicked or the Constitution.

[Melissa Murray]

But don't worry, they are not resting, which means we are not resting either. So here is what we have on tap for you tonight. First, we will start by doing some big picture themes, previews, if you will, of this upcoming term. And although we are going to mention some specific cases, we are not going to do our usual deep dives into these cases. If you want the deep dives on these specific cases, you are going to have to subscribe to our YouTube channel and you will have to hear it there for yourself. So it's not okay to be a fair weather fan and only show up for the live shows. You've got to subscribe and be there every Monday, just like we are, and we know you are. So we will be covering these cases in depth every Monday in your ear holes. But for now, we're just going to hit some of the highlights. We are then going to cover some assorted legal news. And then because we are in Chicago and this is a live show, we have a very special guest. I think you may know her. Yes, she is Illinois's lieutenant governor and a candidate for the U.S. senate, Juliana Stratton. So she's here in the building and she's going to be joining us. So give it up for her. And that's not all.

[Kate Shaw]

I don't think they're gonna give it up the same way for our last segment.

[Melissa Murray]

I think they will give it up.

[Kate Shaw]

Will they?

[Melissa Murray]

Maybe just the tip, but more. Okay.

[Kate Shaw]

Melissa just learned.

[Leah Littman]

Melissa just learned what that means. As we were backstage, she's like, leah, my friend said you said this thing just the tip. And he thought it was like really funny.

[Kate Shaw]

Explaining that to her was one of my proudest moments, actually.

[Leah Littman]

You just brought that on yourself.

[Melissa Murray]

It's not often that I get to be Kate Shaw on this podcast, but.

[Kate Shaw]

But it happened tonight.

[Melissa Murray]

It happened tonight. Yes. And. Whoa. I can't unsee it. Okay, so for our last segment, we are going to have a strict scrutiny game, and this game is going to be a game in honor, a tribute, if you will, to John G. Roberts and his 20 year tenure as Chief justice of these United. Wait, there are no John G. Roberts fans in the audience. I'm genuinely surprised.

[Kate Shaw]

Truly shocking.

[Melissa Murray]

Truly shocking.

[Kate Shaw]

So to give you a sense of the occasion for our games, Roberts is already the third longest serving Chief justice in. In the Court's history, and I feel like I have felt every minute of it. He only has 14 more interminable years to beat Chief Justice John Marshall's tenure as Chief, and actually just eight years before exceeding Roger Taney's tenure.

[Melissa Murray]

Some might say he has already exceeded Roger Taney's tenure.

[Kate Shaw]

Taney is someone who's being recognized more and more. Have you noticed that?

[Melissa Murray]

Yes. Roger Taney is in his redemption era.

[Kate Shaw]

Yes, regrettably, yes. And if you want to know more, our last episode will be a good primer on the Redemption Court. Okay, we are going to shift now to some term themes, but before we actually do that, we want to kind of offer an asterisk to the kind of very idea of a Supreme Court term preview. Because in the age of the rocket docket formerly known as the shadow docket, term previews are going to be totally incomplete. And a part of me kind of worries that even the idea of a term preview that just focuses on the case the Court is. Is slated to hear on the merits kind of ratchets down interest in and focus on what happens outside of the merits docket. And as you know, if you're a listener, so many important matters are decided by the Court these days on the shadow docket.

[Melissa Murray]

I would even go so far as to say that the shadow docket may be the most important part of the Court's docket right now, especially if you want to understand what this court court is doing and how impactful it is on our daily lives.

[Leah Littman]

Yeah, 100%. And we don't know and won't know many of the important issues that will make their way to the shadow docket for this term. Now, the Court does have some Trump cases on its regular merits docket already challenged to the tariffs case about whether the President can fire members of the Federal Trade Commission as well as a governor of the Federal Reserve.

[Melissa Murray]

Right. So those two Cases were migrated from the shadow docket to the merits docket. And there's another case that has also sort of emerged from the shadow docket and will now be on the merits docket. And that is to say the court is very likely and seems quite is going to determine whether this administration can unilaterally rescind the 14th Amendment's grant of birthright citizenship. So we're going to find out if the 14th Amendment is in fact unconstitutional in part or in full, a part of the Constitution. Is it okay?

[Kate Shaw]

These are not arguments we knew were serious arguments and yet that's how much the goal have shifted. Yeah. So, you know, technically speaking, the court has not yet granted a petition in the birthright citizenship case, but as Melissa says, it is absolutely certain that they are going to take that case up. The administration has already asked them to do that. And I think it's a question of when and not if, but with those kind of caveats about a term preview duly issued. Let's talk about the upcoming term. And we will start with some themes that are emerging both on the merits docket and on the shadow docket as the two kind of convergence.

[Leah Littman]

So one theme seems to be picking up on the birthright citizenship matter. Something like time's up before the 14th amendment as well as some, but actually the 14th amendment. So there seems to be like this cockamamie idea that the 14th Amendment had an expiration date when it comes to protecting the rights of, I don't know, racial minorities. And anyone who isn't Pete Hegseth. These folks do think that the 14th Amendment does contain one permanent principle which prevents the government from protecting civil rights. Like this is literally, if you spell it out, the new vision of the 14th Amendment is one where the 14th Amendment's protections for civil rights were subject to an expiration date, which is now, except when the 14th amendment declares anti discrimination laws to be the new discrimination. No expiration date on that baby.

[Melissa Murray]

So this should be really familiar to you all because we have talked about this. This is an ongoing theme throughout many terms on this court. But it really does seem to be reaching a fevered pitch. And one case where I think it's going to be especially apparent is in Louisiana versus Kelly. This was a case from last term that has been held over for this term. And the court has apparently decided that it needs to determine in the context of this case whether Section 2 of the Voting Rights act. This is the part of the Voting Rights act that is a nationwide ban on discrimination in voting, whether in the Context of Section 2, the consideration of race in remedial measures for voting discrimination is in fact unconstitutional.

[Kate Shaw]

So section two, key provision of the Voting Rights act, still standing since the Supreme Court dealt an enormous blow to the Voting Rights act in the Shelby county case in 2013, prohibits, among other things, legislatures from discriminating against minority voters by diluting their political power. So one way it does this is by prohibiting legislatures from. From drawing districts that overrepresent white voters. And it requires legislatures to draw districts where minority voters are fairly represented and have equal political opportunities, at least where such districts are feasible. In the context of residential segregation, that.

[Melissa Murray]

Seems like a pretty modest ask, like letting racial minorities have a say in our democracy. But apparently even thinking about race as you try to construct a system that is fair to minority voters is apparently a bridge too far. So thinking about race as you try to remedy racially motivated vote dilution is apparently now illegal, unconstitutional race discrimination. Or it might be, if some portion of this court has its way.

[Leah Littman]

Just so you know who to thank for this. Dumbass. The 14th amendment has an expiration date on the Voting Rights act theory. Let me remind you that Brett Kavanaugh sits on the Supreme Court. And two years ago. Oh, love that noise. Love that noise. Oh, my goodness. That's the Kavanaugh honk. And I love it. So two years ago, in the Cat Currents in Allen vs. Milligan, a virtually identical Voting Rights act challenge, which. Which Louisiana said in that case was virtually identical to this one, Coach Kavanaugh decided to float his theory that the Constitution only allowed Congress to adopt race conscious remedies in the Voting Rights act for a limited period of time. And what do you know? Time's up. Honestly, I'm low key surprised Brett Kavanaugh is into time's up.

[Melissa Murray]

I'm not, because. Oh. Ow. I got it. I got it.

[Leah Littman]

Thank you.

[Melissa Murray]

I got it. I think he's really into this expiration stuff because it's basically like a shot clock on the Constitution. Like, yeah, Brett Kavanaugh, he loves basketball.

[Leah Littman]

That was my impersonation of Amy Patrick.

[Kate Shaw]

Yes, I figured. Yes. But maybe not everybody got it. So just to break this down a little bit more, these justices, including Brett Kavanaugh, claim to be originalists, right? They say, say they think the meaning of the Constitution was fixed when the document was drafted and ratified, and yet they somehow seem poised to embrace the theory that the Voting Rights act was constitutional when it was passed in 1965, maybe when it was amended in 1982, but that the same constitutional provision which to be clear, hasn't changed. The 14th and the 15th amendments now don't allow the Voting Rights act in 2025. Right. So if we're being technical, it really sounds like a vision of the Constitution that is evolving or like devolving rather than originalist.

[Melissa Murray]

Instead of living Constitutionalism, it's dying Constitutionalism. Yes, yes, yes. Let me say a little bit more about these erstwhile originalists who apparently have no idea about the circumstances under which the 14th and 15th amendments were drafted and ratified. And spoiler alert, this was not a situation where Congress was really concerned with race neutrality coming out of the Civil War that ended slavery. And in their zeal to include the formerly enslaved in the body politic, not interested in a colorblind country.

[Kate Shaw]

Constitution.

[Leah Littman]

Yeah. So and Louisiana vs Calais isn't the only case that has a kind of confused vision of equality and discrimination. There are other cases, including the ones challenging the exclusion of transgender athletes from sports.

[Melissa Murray]

Right. So these are two cases that have been consolidated, Little versus Hecox and West Virginia versus bpj. And they both involve state level bans on transportation, persons participating in sports, teams that track their gender identity. Both cases ask whether the state bans violate the Equal Protection Clause. And one of the consolidated cases involves a Title 9 claim. Title 9 is the federal anti discrimination law that prohibits individuals or entities that receive federal funds from discriminating in educational activities or programs. And I really worry that in presenting the court with this Title nine claim, we are giving the court an opportunity to say that Title IX actually requires schools to discriminate against trans kids in order to safeguard women's equality. This is an argument that the Trump administration is making all of the time in its eos. And it would not surprise me at all if one of the justices in the 6 to 3 conservative supermajority also decided to let this one fly in a concurrence or maybe even a majority opinion.

[Leah Littman]

Yeah, because the administration that is so eager to blame women for autism is very concerned about protecting women. You know, the other case in this category for me is Childs versus Salazar. That is the First Amendment challenge to the state law banning conversion quote therapy, the kind of quote therapy that tries to counsel people out of being gay, lesbian or bisexual or transgender. A UN expert has declared it a form of torture. Medical experts have opined that it is junk science. Part of what makes this case so unhinged to me is that the Colorado law is just a licensing scheme. So all Colorado has said is that licensed therapists, people in a profession that is regulated and screened by the state. State can't do conversion therapy, something that is rejected by the standards of their profession. And the question in this case is, who is the victim? Is it the gay or trans patient who a therapist tries to torture and deny their existence? Or is it the Christian therapist who is subject to the state's efforts to regulate the provision of professional medical care? This is a culture war court, and they have taken a side.

[Melissa Murray]

Let me weigh in some more on this whole culture war court like this is not the only issue in the culture war with which this court is preoccupied. The court on Friday granted certiorari in another enormous Second Amendment case. This case is called Wolford vs. Lopez, and it considers whether states may presumptively ban concealed carry on private property except in circumstances where the property owner permits gun owners to concealed carry on their property. So this is a big one.

[Kate Shaw]

Okay, so in addition to the court's eagerness to wade into culture war issues and a possible expiration date for the 14th amendment, at least for some purposes, I think there are a couple of other related themes to highlight. One is the likely continued weaponization of the First Amendment, even while the executive branch tramples it in all kinds of ways, but the continued weaponization of certain forms of the First Amendment to. To achieve reactionary goals. And here I'm thinking of two cases in particular. The first is the one that Leah and Melissa were just talking about, Chiles versus Salazar, the challenge to a Colorado prohibition on conversion therapy. I do have this possible silver lining hope about this case. That is, if the religious therapist wins, as I think Melissa and Leah correctly predict that they will if there's language in the case. The opinion that the court issues about the First Amendment, which is a First Amendment case, precluding government from taking too heavy a hand in prohibiting certain sorts of medical treatments, it would be, to be clear, a very hard pill to swallow in light of the Court's decision last term blessing the Tennessee ban on certain medical care for trans youth in the Scrametti case. But a decision in this case could, at least in theory, potentially be deployed to resist state efforts to prescribe or prohibit certain forms of medical care. And in this moment, anything that makes it harder for government to dictate date treatment with Secretary Bearjuice as chief health regulator might be a good thing. So that is the silver lining that I am attempting to see in this case.

[Melissa Murray]

Kate, I love your.

[Kate Shaw]

I'll wait for it. Yep. No, go ahead.

[Melissa Murray]

I deserve it. I do.

[Leah Littman]

This is an intervention.

[Melissa Murray]

This is my conversion therapy for you all right? So I think this case is really going to be hard for this court to literally lean back from their own tendency toward utter hypocrisy, because conversion therapy has, as Leah says, lots of detractors in the actual medical community. And some might even say that the question of the efficacy of conversion therapy is a matter of debate and controversy, not unlike the court's depiction of gender affirming care in Skretti or its depiction of abortion in Dobbs. And I guess in circumstances where certain treatments are being debated and their efficacy is questioned, aren't we supposed to defer to state legislatures? Isn't that the idea? Yeah.

[Kate Shaw]

Well, if the court is being consistent.

[Melissa Murray]

Again, you're almost there. I'm not saying they will. You're almost there.

[Kate Shaw]

I'm saying if they are.

[Melissa Murray]

You're so close. You're so very close. Yes, yes. Yeah, that's all I'm gonna say.

[Leah Littman]

They are being consistent, though, in the following way. Right? Like, the court has one set of rules for right wingers, reactionaries, and the mega rich, and another set for everyone else. Like, for my friends, everything for Democrats and progressives and women and trans people and the gay and lesbian and bisexual communities, the law, or at least my fantasy version of the law.

[Kate Shaw]

So I agree with the predictive claim, but I think it's at least possible there could be language in the opinion that could be useful, but I have just floated the possibility. I am clearly in dissent on this panel.

[Melissa Murray]

This is a two to one.

[Kate Shaw]

That's right.

[Melissa Murray]

Yep.

[Kate Shaw]

So. But the second weaponizing the First Amendment case I want to just briefly flag is partially about the mega rich. And this is the first campaign finance case the court has had in a while, partly because there's not that much campaign finance left to challenge. Like, it's mostly gone. But there are some provisions of federal law that remain. And one is a limitation on the amount that political parties can spend in coordination with candidates. And a case before the court presents the question of whether that loan. It's not loan, but that one of the few remaining provisions of federal law that does impose this kind of limit violates the First Amendment. And so the National Republican Senatorial Committee is challenging that coordination limit. The Trump administration agrees, because, of course, it does. And the court has appointed a lawyer, Roman Martinez, to defend the statute.

[Narrator/Ad Reader]

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. October 10th is World Mental Health Day.

[Leah Littman]

And this year we're saying, thank you, therapists. Think about it.

[Narrator/Ad Reader]

Therapists hear all of our shit, all of it from everyone, all day long. That's their nine to five. And yet somehow they. They stay willing and able to help us all process it. That definitely deserves a big thank you. I mean, just based on the things I voiced onto my therapist, I mean, imagine how bad they'd have it if I didn't have a dog. Better Help therapists have helped over 5 million people worldwide on their mental health journeys. That's millions of stories, millions of journeys. And behind everyone is a therapist who showed up, listened, and helped someone take a step forward. Moments in therapy, like the right question, a safe space to cry, or a small win can change lives. So this World mental health day, BetterHelp is honoring those connections and the therapists who make them possible. As I mentioned, October 10th is World Mental Health Day. Couldn't have picked a better time for Mental Health Day than the week of a new Supreme Court term. For reals. And this year, BetterHelp is shining the spotlight on therapists, people who truly make the world a better place. Unlike some SCOTUS justices I know, one particular moment I'm especially appreciative of in my therapy journey is when I showed up in my first therapy session, which I called on an additional as needed emergency BAS basis after my bike accident last summer.

[Leah Littman]

I know, I know.

[Narrator/Ad Reader]

I talk about the bike accident a lot, but that's because it was super traumatic and affected me a ton. Anyways, I showed up sniveling, couldn't get out more than two sentences, if that, before just breaking down into ugly sobs. And my therapist didn't judge me. She made me feel less bad, helped draw parallels between this experience and others that helped me see a way forward and helped me come up with ways to, in Olivia Pope's words, handle it. The right therapist can really change everything. And BetterHelp has more than 12 years experience in matching people to the right therapists. Better Help therapists work according to a strict code of conduct, and they're fully licensed in the U.S. betterHelp also does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. And with over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, and it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session. Based on over 1.7 million client reviews. This World Mental Health Day, we're celebrating the therapists who've helped millions of people take a step forward. If you're ready to find the right therapist for you, BetterHelp can help you start that journey. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com strict that's betterhelp.com strict.

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[Kate Shaw]

Second theme I want to mention, I think will also present both on the merits and the shadow docket, and that is whether the court is going to be willing to peek behind the curtain and so, you know, to penetrate the black box of government decision making, as Melissa's colleague Rick Pildis puts it, or basically instead pretend that this is a normal administration like any other.

[Leah Littman]

John Roberts has it in him, or once did, to probe the facially preposterous representations made by this very president. So OG listeners will recall that we spent a lot of time in the early days of the pod joking the justification was necessary to enforce the Voting Rights act, which was how the first Trump administration laughably tried to defend its efforts to add a citizenship question to the census. The court decided that was pretextual and struck it down, writing that quote, we are not required to exhibit a naivete from which ordinary citizens are free. You know, if anything, many of the justifications the administration is now offering are more preposterous than that one, although that one was just so yeah, it's hard.

[Melissa Murray]

To top necessary to enforce the Voting Rights Act.

[Leah Littman]

It is.

[Kate Shaw]

And yet I think, I think they will.

[Melissa Murray]

That was actually Wilbur Roth, not Brett Kavanaugh, like justice for Brett Kavanaugh.

[Leah Littman]

That was the sound they make when they're starting to enforce the Voting Rights act.

[Kate Shaw]

Right when they lined up to do it.

[Leah Littman]

Rallying cry.

[Melissa Murray]

I think this is a really good point. And the tariffs cases, which will be heard on the merits docket this term, I think, is a prime example of this, because this president is essentially taking ordinary episodes in the economic cycles of our lives and transforming them into emergencies. Like we have trade deficits. That happens like there are trade deficits. It's not necessarily an emergency such that you get to use this power that literally hasn't been used since Jimmy Carter invoked it during the gas crisis in the 1970s. It's another one for you gen Xers, you don't get to just use that for bathroom vanities.

[Leah Littman]

Or do you? Because he is asking for the power to shitpost his way to tanking the global economy and declare bathroom vanities essential to national security. More seriously, like a lot of the President's most chilling exercises of authority rest on pretextual emergencies, including the deployment of the National Guard.

[Melissa Murray]

And there are no new ideas. Right. So we just learned that the President is trying to justify the fatal strikes on Venezuelan boats in the Caribbean Sea on the need to prosecute the war on drugs. Nancy Reagan would never, would never.

[Leah Littman]

You know, with the Trump cases that are already on the court's docket, it seems like the court is going to fuck around and find out with going further and further down the rabbit hole that is the unitary executive theory, taking us closer to making presidents kings and to a possible coronation of King Trump.

[Melissa Murray]

Speaking of making the President a king, I think it's time for our recurring segment, we need to Talk about Justice Clarence Thomas. We do, though. So at a recent appearance, Justice Thomas was absolutely on brand.

[Kate Shaw]

He was. And our OG listeners will remember not just the necessary to enforce the Voting Rights act line, but also a regular line. And a recurring segment in our first couple of episodes was Stare Decisis is for suckers. I should have asked you to say it with me.

[Melissa Murray]

Maybe you have the shirt and obviously we don't.

[Kate Shaw]

We didn't just say that in the first couple of seasons. You have definitely heard us say it a few times since because it is kind of evergreen when it comes to this court.

[Leah Littman]

Well, as you know, we have been suggesting some new names for the docket formerly known as the Shadow Docket, like the We're Perfect, We're Beautiful, We're Linda Evangelista docket, or the SCOTUS shitpost, or the Just the Tip docket. Because why? Because they say the country isn't getting fucked, but the country is getting fucked. I am not a bad bitch. And this isn't savage. This is just a fact. Anyway, as we were renaming the Shadow docket, Justice Thomas decided to make the old chestnut starry Decisis for suckers great again.

[Kate Shaw]

That's right. So at an event in D.C. with his former law clerk, Jennifer Mascot, who is also a nominee to a seat on the U.S. court of Appeals for the Third Circuit, Justice Thomas offered the following thoughts on precedent. One, he said some decided cases are just based on, quote, something somebody dreamt up and others went along with.

[Leah Littman]

Smells like immunity to me.

[Kate Shaw]

It sure does. Or the Shadow docket. Or every Shadow docket decision.

[Leah Littman]

Yeah, that's us editorializing.

[Melissa Murray]

I didn't say that part, but here's something he did say. So just as Thomas continued, quote, at some point, we need to think about what we're doing with stare decisis.

[Kate Shaw]

So close.

[Melissa Murray]

So close, sir. Yes, we do. We do need to think about what you're doing.

[Leah Littman]

So the National Law Journal reported. He also said about precedent, quote, if it's totally stupid, you don't go along with it. End quote. Ah, yes, women's rights.

[Kate Shaw]

So stupid.

[Leah Littman]

Seriously, at this event, he said Griswold vs. Connecticut about protecting access to contraception was a decision that didn't make sense. This is big. He admitted energy. Thanks, Clarence, for just saying it. No, maybe all of the mens who say we are hyperbolic doomsdayers will shut the fuck up. It does seem like this term, the conservative supermajority is poised to go straight up starry, decisive serial killer mode. On the chopping block is Humphrey's executor on presidential removal, Gingels vs. Thornburg, a major voting rights precedent. I think it's jingles, actually. Yeah.

[Kate Shaw]

So it's hard to overstate how foundational those decisions are, but even harder to overstate how foundational the idea of stare decisis is. It like, sounds like this fusty Latin word and concept.

[Melissa Murray]

That's how foundational it is. It's in Latin.

[Kate Shaw]

It's in Latin. That's how you know it's serious.

[Melissa Murray]

That's how you know.

[Kate Shaw]

Yeah. And we joke about it all the time, but this is a doctrine that is good about both humility, like you don't have all the answers and the accumulated wisdom of all those who came before might be worth something. And it's also a doctrine of stability. Like, we don't want the law to change radically because of the whims of five or six Justices. But this is a court that has very little humility and it seems increasingly unstable. Yes. And very little stability.

[Melissa Murray]

Yeah, the humble, stable part was the tell. So the whole starry decisis is for suckers. Energy is already concerning, you know, because we aren't supposed to just disrupt settled precedent. But I think the thing that is even more telling about this court's radicalism is that it's not just overruling precedent. It's actually interrogating practices and policies that no one ever thought to litigate or challenge before. It's like everyone else was stupid until this court.

[Leah Littman]

They are going to go full on jarcassy on the entire legal canon we'll explain that reference in a second. But it means making arguments that to date, people were unwilling to make because they either had a sense of shame or an intellect that exceeded Brett Kavanaugh's. So here's the moment from the oral argument in Darkness I am referencing, but.

[Juliana Stratton]

We'Ve never suggested that in a case where Congress has given an agency the power to enforce something and the agency is bringing the charge, if you will, that, you know, that that's just not. That's settled.

[Kate Shaw]

Well, it's settled only to the extent no one's brought it up and force this issue since Atlas Roofing.

[Juliana Stratton]

In this context, nobody has had the.

[Leah Littman]

You know, chutzpah.

[Juliana Stratton]

To quote my people, to bring it up since Atlas Roofing.

[Leah Littman]

Now, though, they are saying this insane shit with their full chests.

[Kate Shaw]

And that, of course, was the one and only Elena Kagan, if you didn't recognize her voice. So just to stay on this Justice Thomas event for one more beat, though, so he also had another interesting nugget that might have been a dig at at least some of his colleagues. So he said that he looks back on his almost 35 terms on the court. Yeah, it's a lot. He is also not he's not the third long, but he's like in the fifth or sixth longest serving justice ever position. And I think if he stays till 28, we felt it. He'll be long again. We've always. But so he's got a lot of terms to reflect on. And he said in this appearance that his favorite era was the 11ish years when the court's composition was stable. So this is a long time when the court's composition didn't change, when Justice Breyer was the most junior justice. And according to Justice Thomas, quote, I've been here a long time now, but those, those were truly my friends. I don't get bored with the work of the court. I get bored with people who are boring, but not the court.

[Melissa Murray]

Shorter. Justice Thomas.

[Kate Shaw]

Fuck them, libs.

[Leah Littman]

Or alternatively, tell me you're not amused by Neil Gorsuch without telling me you're not amused by Neil Gorsuch.

[Kate Shaw]

Could go either way, or Brett could be Brett Kavanaugh. I guess why not both? So next up, we have a little bit of court culture for you.

[Leah Littman]

The lower courts are still doing court things, including something that's called law you might have heard of. It might be appearing in the history books someday soon. And a district judge in Oregon, an hour before we recorded, issued an opinion finding the president's deployment of The National Guard in Portland. Illegal.

[Melissa Murray]

I should say.

[Kate Shaw]

Our last live show, we got one of these while we were on stage and Leah had to speed read the opinion and then we sort of digested it. So at least we got the courtesy of an hour before Curtin to digest this one. But also a great opinion.

[Leah Littman]

Yeah. So basically the district court said the president's reasons for deploying the Guard were bullshit.

[Melissa Murray]

Okay, all right. We are doing this in real time. I am 100% sure the court did not say that it was bullshit.

[Kate Shaw]

They came pretty close.

[Leah Littman]

This was a close reading. I'm reading between the lines. The court's actual words were simply untethered to the facts, not conceived in good faith and ignoring facts on the.

[Melissa Murray]

Shorter Oregon District judge. Bullshit.

[Leah Littman]

Yeah, exactly. So the court concluded the Guard wasn't needed to execute the laws of the United States. And allowing the deployment basically as a response to protest was inconsistent with the, quote, longstanding and foundational tradition of resistance to government overreach, especially in the form of military intrusion into civil affairs. This historical tradition boils down to a simple proposition. This is a nation of constitutional law, not martial law.

[Melissa Murray]

There's more.

[Leah Littman]

Oh, yeah. These are the words of a judge who was nominated by, wait for it, noted liberal squish, Donald Trump, also a judge who served on noted liberal squishes, Ken Starr's litigation team.

[Melissa Murray]

Sometimes it be your own people.

[Leah Littman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kate Shaw]

So please do share this fact. The next time someone says, oh, the lower courts all have Trump derangement syndrome, they're just all out to get Donald Trump. And in that vein, we also wanted to acknowledge this goes back a little bit, but about a week ago, we got an opinion from Massachusetts, its district judge, William Young. And it was an epic opinion. And folks probably have heard about it. It's been covered elsewhere, but we really would be remiss not to spend some time talking about it. So the case involved a challenge to the administration's efforts to target for deportation non citizen students and faculty members based on their speech, and in particular speech critical of the Israeli government and supportive of Palestinian rights.

[Melissa Murray]

So the plaintiffs accused the government of administering an illegal ideological deportation policy. And there was some pretty stunning evidence that was admitted into the record that this was accurate. Gif. That's exactly what the government was doing. So according to the trial record, federal agencies created a special unit called the Tiger Team. They're not sending their best people. Yeah. Anyway, the Tiger Team relied heavily on the right right wing Canary Missions website to identify protesters or critics based on their speech, which is what we call in the legal game viewpoint discrimination. And if you were wondering, viewpoint discrimination is a violation of the First Amendment.

[Leah Littman]

Yes.

[Melissa Murray]

Yes.

[Leah Littman]

So Judge Young's opinion is framed as a letter or response to a postcard that he received to his chambers. That postcard read, quote, trump has pardons and tanks. What do you have? To which Judge Young responded, quote, Dear Mr. Or Ms. Anonymous, alone I have nothing but my sense of duty. Together we, the people of the United States, you and me, have our magnificent Constitution. Here's how that works out in a specific case.

[Kate Shaw]

The opinion went on to underscore the dangers of the administration using deploying the vast resources of the federal government to suppress speech on the basis of viewpoint.

[Leah Littman]

And Judge Young touched on the practice of using masked agents for ICE enforcement. As he explained, quote, this court has listened carefully to the reasons given for masking up. It rejects ICE's testimony as disingenuous, squalid and dishonorable. ICE goes masked for a single reason, to terrorize Americans into quiescence.

[Kate Shaw]

And this was a judge appointed to the federal bench by President Ronald Reagan, served for nearly half a century, called this the most important opinion that he had had in his time on the bench. And that last quote is an unfortunate segue into local developments and many of those are kind of more disastrous. Fallout from the Supreme Court's shadow docket.

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[Leah Littman]

Take care of my body, you know.

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[Leah Littman]

I love my job as a law.

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[Leah Littman]

All.

[Melissa Murray]

Right, so as we've discussed in prior episodes episodes, this court, with no explanation, recently stayed a district court's order prohibiting ICE from using race and ethnicity, language, occupation and location as screening criteria for detaining individuals in Los Angeles. Now, the court's order was formally confined to Los Angeles, but it seemed pretty likely that the court effectively blessing the use of racial profiling would embolden this administration to begin using racially profiling methods in other contexts.

[Kate Shaw]

And here we are other contexts and other places. And one of those places appears to be right here in Chicago. No? Exactly.

[Leah Littman]

So the court didn't explain its decision. Coach Kavanaugh did. He issued a cavcurrence to explain why the fascists could let their freak flags fly. And here's how he described what is happening with regard to immigration enforcement quote the government sometimes makes brief investigative stops, end quote. If the officers learn that the individual they stopped is a US Citizen or otherwise lawfully in the United States, they promptly let the individual go. That's a funny big if.

[Melissa Murray]

True. Got. All right, so we have a real on the ground report of how immigration stops are actually proceeding these days.

[Kate Shaw]

And as folks in the audience here likely know, but listeners at home might not. The Chicago Sun Times and other outlets have reported that last week hundreds of federal agents descended on a South Shore apartment complex at one o' clock in the morning. They broke down the door of an apartment occupied by a 67 year old United States States citizen who was then dragged out in zip ties. He was left tied up outside of the building for almost three hours. Another resident said she saw kids dragged out of the building without clothes on and into U Haul vans and separated from their mothers. One resident asked agents, quote, why were they holding me if I was an American citizen? They said I had to wait until they looked me up.

[Melissa Murray]

Just to reiterate, brief if investigative stops where US Citizens are promptly let go.

[Leah Littman]

So friend of the podcast and former guest on the podcast, Professor Anil Kahan at Drexel Klein's School of Law has coined a term for what the federal government is doing. He called it Kavanaugh stops.

[Melissa Murray]

Let's make it famous. ABC has further details about these Kavanaugh stops and how they work. So one resident reported that his South Shore building was shaking and when he looked out the window he saw a Black Hawk helicopter hovering like again, Blackhawk down like Somalia in the late 1990s, early 2000s. Like that's the kind of stuff that they're using right now on civilians. Another resident came out of her apartment at 10pm to find officers pointing a gun in her face. She was then handcuffed and detained until around three in the morning. The administration has justified these appalling events in a statement claiming that Chicago's South Shore is, quote, a location known to be frequented by Trend Aragua members and their associates. Now, it's been a while since I lived in the beautiful city of Chicago. And when I did live here in the late 90s, there were episodes of gang violence. But I hadn't heard that Trende Aragua was in the city, so I'm a little skeptical. But what I do know is I know who lives on the south side of Chicago. Black people, college students and White Sox fans. And none of these people deserve this.

[Kate Shaw]

No. And unfortunately, this is not all. So over the last couple of days, we have Also heard about truly appalling ice conduct across Chicago. And kind of recapping what is happening here in Chicago right now is unfortunately a good segue into our conversation with our very special guest. So our guest today is currently the Lieutenant Governor of Illinois. She is running to become the next United States Senator from the land of Lincoln. Please give it up for Juliana Stratton.

[Juliana Stratton]

Thank you for having me.

[Melissa Murray]

We are so glad you're here. We. We have so many pressing questions. But before we get to ICE enforcement, if I wanted to get a hot.

[Kate Shaw]

Dog.

[Melissa Murray]

Where would be the best place for a true Chicago dog?

[Juliana Stratton]

Wieners Circle is always the point. But the key is no ketchup. Right.

[Melissa Murray]

Okay.

[Leah Littman]

Yes.

[Juliana Stratton]

Okay.

[Melissa Murray]

And Wiener's Circle is not the Supreme Court. Okay. Okay.

[Juliana Stratton]

But.

[Leah Littman]

Yeah.

[Kate Shaw]

Okay.

[Melissa Murray]

Just checking. Okay.

[Leah Littman]

I also want to ask, where do you think is the best place for Chicago pizza? And I understand you're running a campaign, so I understand if you might not want to answer that question. I still had to ask.

[Juliana Stratton]

Well, I heard pequods, but I. I mean, there's a lot of great pizza.

[Melissa Murray]

I just wonder. I think you should stop. Yeah.

[Juliana Stratton]

Because when you start to take sides, there's lots of great pizza in Chicago.

[Leah Littman]

A politic answer. That's right.

[Juliana Stratton]

That's right. All right.

[Kate Shaw]

I will just say I kind of want to. Lou Malnatis. They decided. We're doing Giordano's. We're doing. Anyway, there's. I. I'm not running for anything, so I can take a side, but I'm also going to try to focus us. So. Sorry. No. But we obviously do have serious things we wanted to talk to you about. So over the last nine months, we all know the President has been increasingly aggressive in the assertion of federal government power. And obviously, we don't need to tell you. It seems that assertion has now reached Chicago. And actually, we wanted to start by playing some excerpts from recent speeches from the President and Secretary Hegseth and then ask for some of your reactions to those.

[Leah Littman]

Our history is filled with military heroes.

[Kate Shaw]

Who took on all enemies, foreign and domestic. You know that phrase very well.

[Leah Littman]

That's what the oath says.

[Kate Shaw]

Foreign and domestic.

[Leah Littman]

Well, we also have domestic.

[Juliana Stratton]

We unleash overwhelming and punishing violence on the enemy. We also don't fight with stupid rules of engagement. We untie the hands of our war fighters to intimidate, demoralize, hunt and kill the enemies of our country. No more politically correct and overbearing rules of engagement.

[Leah Littman]

A few months ago, I was at.

[Juliana Stratton]

The White House when President Trump announced his Liberation Day for America's trade policy. It was a landmark day, while today is another liberation day. The liberation of America's warriors in name, in deed, and in authorities. You kill people and break things for a living.

[Melissa Murray]

Okay. Very, very normal. Yeah. So by themselves. These are incredibly chilling statements, and they are even more alarming when you take them together. And just this morning, and we are recording on Saturday, Governor Pritzker shared that the Department of War. It never not sounds stupid. Yeah. The Department of War gave him an ultimatum to call up the National Guard or they would do it for him and they would send military troops into Illinois against the will of the state, its people, and its governor.

[Juliana Stratton]

And we said, hell, no.

[Leah Littman]

As.

[Melissa Murray]

Okay.

[Juliana Stratton]

I mean, think about this. I mean, you just heard that the enemy within. This is about a president, a wannabe dictator, who sees American people, fellow Americans, as the enemy and wants to normalize the presence of military troops, Troops on American soil. And we made it clear. Now, he, of course, then gave the order to federalize troops to come to a city like Chicago. But we have made it very clear. We don't want you here. We don't need you here. And we have, by the way, a governor. He happens to be the best governor in the United States, by the way. And the governor is the commander in chief of the. In our state. So we don't need a president telling us what we need to do. So this is an effort to cause real chaos, to cause. To stoke fear. And that's exactly what's happening, pitting us against one another. And we have made it very clear in Illinois what we are standing for. And we're going to keep fighting to protect our people. You better believe that.

[Melissa Murray]

Lfg.

[Leah Littman]

Let's go. I was gonna say, as the great Shea Coulee said, this is how we do it in Chicago.

[Juliana Stratton]

That's exactly right.

[Kate Shaw]

Could we actually get you to say some more about kind of how state and local governments can serve as sites of resistance to federal encroachment? So we totally agree that the governor has really been incredible and a standout, as I think there's been a lot of flailing, because so much of what we're seeing from the federal government is so unprecedented. So how can states and localities become effective sites of resistance?

[Juliana Stratton]

I think one of the things that, in addition to speaking out, in addition to saying, let's coordinate, getting all of our leaders together and convening to say, here's where we are. These are our values, and we're going see to stand strong. And by the way, People do want to see that from their leaders. They want to see leaders fighting back and not just going along to get along. So that is one thing, but I think the other thing that's been really important here in Illinois is we knew what would come about with the second Trump presidency. So we were proactive. We made sure that we enshrined the right to an abortion in state law. We made sure. Yeah, we made sure that we protected LGBTQ rights. We knew what was being threatened, and so we were proactive. And in many ways, being proactive is the way that we can resist by not waiting for something to happen and then say, how do we react? But to say, you know what? We understand who he is. He is not a normal president, and he is not a normal person. And so for us, we had to take action. And I think that's what the people of Illinois deserve, leaders who take action.

[Melissa Murray]

That is what we all deserve.

[Juliana Stratton]

Everyone deserves, but Illinois. Right here.

[Melissa Murray]

All right, you are in the Illinois state government now, but you are running to be a member of Congress, the Senate, specifically. And at this moment, you are running on behalf of a party that's in the minority in the federal legislature. What should an opposition party be doing now to resist this president? Like, what are we missing here?

[Juliana Stratton]

Well, look, I sometimes wonder why it's so quiet in certain circles and spaces, even within the party. What I can tell you is that when I'm traveling the state and I'm doing a lot of that these days, more than any policy issue, what people are saying more than anything else is I am looking for someone to go to the Met fighting for me. That is what I'm looking at. And I can tell you we get a good example of what that should look like by just tapping into the energy that people are bringing. People who head to the streets and say, no kings, people who say, hands off my health care, hands off my Medicaid, they are showing us the kind of energy that they want. And I think that what we have to do is we have to match that energy. We have to meet the moment with the energy that people are expecting. But I think the other thing is we're seeing it right now, for example, with the budget. We are seeing Democrats say, we're not going to compromise and give up health care for Americans. And that's important, but that energy has to be sustained. The people. You know, Americans don't want to see Democrats, you know, confirming judges that have no business sitting on the bench. They don't want to see Democrats confirming appointees to lead agencies that have no experience and have no business sitting on the bench. So we have to sustain this energy. It's not just for right now. And the reason why I'm running is, yes, because I want to make sure that we pass good legislation. Yes, I want to make sure I use my Bully poll and speak with moral clarity. But it's to push our party to be courageous in this moment. That's what we need. That's the energy people are looking for.

[Melissa Murray]

So I want to pulverize that and snort it. That's amazing. Yes.

[Leah Littman]

That is a great transition. Juliana, you are running for a seat that is open because Senator Dick Durbin is. Is retiring. And among other things, Senator Durbin chaired the Senate Judiciary Committee when Democrats had a majority in the Senate. And if you are elected to the Senate, you will play a role in shaping the federal courts. So in that spirit, can we get your takes on the following questions? One, how would you rate the Supreme Court? Awesome. Okay. Bad or 911? There's an emergency.

[Melissa Murray]

There's an emergency.

[Juliana Stratton]

There's an emergency. We have a Supreme Court right now that is rubber stamping this president's authoritarian agenda. And quite frankly, it is dangerous. We're supposed to have checks and balances, right? But there are no checks from this Supreme Court. So it is dangerous.

[Leah Littman]

They're getting checks from their emotional support, billionaires, not handing, they are not checking.

[Juliana Stratton]

The president the other branches.

[Leah Littman]

Right. Okay. So second question. If a nominee to the federal court said, allegedly, that one could, instead of responding to and complying with court orders, just simply tell the courts, quote, fuck you, would you vote to confirm them to a lifetime appointment on the federal courts?

[Juliana Stratton]

I'm not. I'm not someone who cusses a lot.

[Melissa Murray]

Sorry, what?

[Juliana Stratton]

But I would say it would be something close to him. But what I would say is, no. I mean, no, should not be, does not have the experience, does not believe in the rule of law, and should not sit on the bench at all. Absolutely not.

[Kate Shaw]

So taking you back to kind of the state officials sort of question for now, we were talking about a decision that came down regarding the invalidity, at least as a district court found it, of a decision to send the National Guard to Oregon. I guess I want to ask about, from your vantage in state government, kind of the role of litigation in this moment. So obviously using the bully pulpit, critically important. I think state and local officials both rallying the public and communicating about our constitutional values is hugely important. And as we've just been talking about, the Supreme Court has been blessing a lot of what the administration is doing. But the courts are not just the Supreme Court. The lower federal courts are doing a great deal. So I guess is that a place that people should not exclusively, but among other things, sort of look to as one potential check on the federal government. I guess there is litigation or will be litigation already filed against the federal government just by Illinois. Right. Is that pending now or. It will be.

[Juliana Stratton]

And we are doing that. We have a fantastic, not just a fantastic governor, but we have a fantastic attorney general in Kwame Raul. And you know, we are, you know, filing cases. We're going to court. And you don't see all of those cases on the, the front page. I mean, it's not always making the headline news. But we are doing that and we are winning. And I think that's the piece that I want to make sure people understand that the resistance is important because we are winning, we are getting to places. And this is a very weak man in Donald Trump. And we understand that. And so when you push back, we see him start to change course. It doesn't mean that things aren't still happening. I mean, he came back today and said, well, now let's send troops to Chicago. We're going to see that happen. But when we resist, when we fight back, when we stand together, when we go to court and file these lawsuits, yes, it's important. Of course, if they get appealed and the cases that get appealed to the Supreme Court, who knows what we will see happen. But every single step, we must fight back. We cannot normalize what is happening. We cannot just sit back on the sidelines. We have to be ready to go to bat every single moment. And that's what we're doing in Illinois. That's the kind of leadership I'm going to bring to the United States Senate, by the way.

[Leah Littman]

So because you are so involved in a state, you know, that is, is really on the front lines of pushing back against an autocratic, aspiring, fascistic, authoritarian administration, aspiring, you know, just to throw out some adjectives. And so you are involved in this fight and seeing it play out. Can you give us some reasons for hope or encouragement, like things to look to that we can say like, yes, this is working and we should continue to stay in this fight because I think so often it's just so draining and demoralizing. And people look around and they feel discouraged because it doesn't feel like there is anything they can do that will simply turn this off.

[Juliana Stratton]

Yeah, well, first of all, it is a very real thing about how people are feeling in this moment. People are, you know, and this is part of the playbook to make us feel overwhelmed, to make us feel hopeless and helpless and confused and scared, quite frankly. And I hear that a lot from Illinoisans all across the state. I think a couple of things. I mean, first and foremost, I keep saying that every time I walk into a room and I'm doing a lot of different events or gatherings and meet and greets, protest. I've been out in the streets protesting the day that I show up and no one is there that will say something to me. But every time I walk into a space and someone is still there, sometimes they bring their children, sometimes they come alone, sometimes they bring their whole little friendship group with handmade signs or whatever they need to bring. Every time I see see that, I get filled back up because it is an example and a reminder that people are still in the fight. They are not giving up. They're going to keep going every single day. The other thing I think of is my dad, Henry, who is 92, who marched from Selma to Montgomery in 1965.

[Melissa Murray]

Hey, Henry.

[Kate Shaw]

Yeah.

[Juliana Stratton]

And he. He has some health challenges now. And, you know, he wrote this article back in 1965 that's on the wall in the Illinois State capitol in my office about why he marched. And he said, I did not like how human beings were being treated. Something that I think all of us are feeling every single day right now. And somebody must have asked my dad, well, what did you think you would accomplish by marching?

[Kate Shaw]

Marching?

[Juliana Stratton]

And he said that I would stand up and be counted. And that is the moment that we are all in right now, right? That we all have to do our part to stand up and be counted. And so my dad, he didn't know what was going to happen after marching. He didn't know. He didn't know that there would be a Voting Rights Act. And he surely didn't know that right now in 2025, those rights are at stake once again at the age of 92. But what he knew is if I stand up and I'm counted, and then the next generation, and the next generation continues that work and takes that baton out of his hand, we're going to be okay. We have been passed the baton and we must run with it. That is our responsibility. And when we do our parts, we will get through this. It's going to be hard, but we're going to get through it.

[Melissa Murray]

Brett Kavanaugh is not the only one who knows sports. We can have a father of daughters. We can have a daughter of a great father. That's exactly right. Please give it up for Lieutenant Governor Juliana Str.

[Leah Littman]

Thank you.

[Melissa Murray]

She is running to represent and fight for the great state of Illinois.

[Juliana Stratton]

That's right.

[Melissa Murray]

Thank you so much.

[Narrator/Ad Reader]

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[Leah Littman]

It in your own home.

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[Melissa Murray]

Okay, I am so amped.

[Leah Littman]

I know, I know.

[Kate Shaw]

We cannot top that. We cannot do that.

[Melissa Murray]

But never happens.

[Kate Shaw]

We're actually going to play a game. We're calling two truths and a lie. Maybe you've encountered it before, but this is the John Roberts Edition. I hadn't seen the photo that we decided to use. This is great. Audio listeners. Pull up the YouTube. There's a great mug of John Roberts that you need to see as we play this game.

[Leah Littman]

It is not muggy in here.

[Kate Shaw]

All right, here is how the game is going to work. We are going to read you three statements, then we'll read them again and ask you to cheer for the one you think is the lie. Two truths, one lie. Cheer for the lie.

[Melissa Murray]

Okay, so I'm going to read them all, and then I'm gonna read them each again, and I want you to cheer for the second round. Okay? All right, here we go. Round one. John Roberts childhood nickname was soberpuss. John Roberts graduated first in his class from Harvard Law School. John Roberts is known to ask restaurant servers for reading glasses. So now I'm gonna read them again, and you're gonna cheer for the one that you think is the lie. Okay, that means two thirds of these are real. Okay. All right. Number one, John Roberts childhood nickname was Sober Puss. Number two, John Roberts graduated first in his class from Harvard Law School. You know, they don't rank. Okay. John Roberts is known to ask restaurant servers for reading glasses. So you're right. The lie is that he graduated first.

[Kate Shaw]

They're good.

[Leah Littman]

This audience is good.

[Melissa Murray]

I mean, Sober Puss is very on brand.

[Leah Littman]

Okay, round number two again. I'm going to read all three, and then you'll clap for which one you think is the lie. Number one, John Roberts coined the phrase, the way to stop racial discrimination is to stop discriminating on the basis of race. Number two, John Roberts said violations of section two of the Voting Rights act shouldn't be too easy to prove. Number three, John Roberts wrote a college paper titled Marxism and Bolshevism Theory and Practice. Okay, gotta pick the lie. Is it one, John Roberts coined the phrase, the way to stop racial discrimination is to stop discriminating on the basis of race. Is it? Number two, John Roberts said violations of section two of the Voting Rights act shouldn't be too easy to prove. Is it? Number three, John Roberts wrote a college paper. Here's the thing.

[Melissa Murray]

You all think you know John Roberts, but you don't.

[Leah Littman]

Here's the lie. The lie is John Roberts didn't coin this phrase. It was coined by a 9th Circuit judge, Justice for Carlos Bea. Yeah, no, this guy just kind of picked it up and.

[Kate Shaw]

And tried to make it great again.

[Leah Littman]

Opinion.

[Kate Shaw]

All right, round three. All right, first of these. John Roberts is known to adjust the jackets and ties of Clerks, including those who work for other justices.

[Melissa Murray]

Sounds creepy.

[Kate Shaw]

Sure does. John Roberts attended public high school. And John Roberts once accused President Obama's Solicitor General, the Solicitor General's office, of being disingenuous. Okay, so first known to adjust the jackets and ties of clerks, including, not his own. Okay, some. John Roberts attended public high school. John Roberts once accused the Solicitor General for the Obama administration of being disingenuous. And you guys got this one? Yeah. He attended private all boys Catholic school, La Lumiere. You guys really do know you're John Roberts.

[Melissa Murray]

Would be hard not to. Okay, round four. Number one, John Roberts is the youngest Chief justice ever appointed. Number two, John Roberts wrote, I've always wanted to stay ahead of the crowd in his application to attend that private high school. Three, John Roberts received the most yes votes at his confirmation of any other sitting justice. Is it number one? John Roberts is the youngest Chief justice ever appointed. Is it number two? John Roberts wrote, I've always wanted to stay ahead of the crowd in his private high school application. Or is the lie number three? John Roberts received the most yes votes at his confirmation than any other justice. Well, well, well. The lie is number one. He's young, but he's not the youngest. In fact, the youngest person ever appointed to the position of Chief justice was John Marshall at the age of 46. John Roberts was 50.

[Leah Littman]

Okay, final round. Round five. Here are the three. Number one, John Roberts wrote an op ed in his high school's paper to support opening the school's enrollment to girls. Number two, the first case that John Roberts argued and won at the Supreme Court was subsequently overturned. Number three, John Roberts is the first Harvard Law School graduate to be Chief Justice. Which is the lie? Is it? Number one, John Roberts wrote an op ed in his high school's paper to support opening the school's enrollment to girls. Is it number two? The first. First case John Roberts argued and won at the Supreme Court was subsequently overturned. Or is it number three, John Roberts is the first Harvard Law School graduate to be Chief Justice. This is close. I'm not sure which one a majority of you selected, but here's the lie. John Roberts actually wrote an op ed up opposing co ed enrollment. To which one, Samuel Alito said, I'm the chief misogynist on this court. No one put Sam Alito in a corner.

[Melissa Murray]

How dare you, sir?

[Leah Littman]

Exactly.

[Kate Shaw]

All right, you guys did pretty well.

[Melissa Murray]

Yeah, very good.

[Kate Shaw]

Yeah. We are running out of time, but we have some notes before we go. And first we want to give some audience shout outs. So tonight we have with us Rachel Cohen. Rachel, you're here, right? Who is a wonderful, brave lawyer who some of you probably heard about because she went really viral when she resigned from Scadden Arps law firm you've heard of, with a scathing letter criticizing the firm and its lawyers for bending the knee and failing to stand up to the administration. She's helping out with a great new project, American Demands Platform, designed to raise public awareness about what progressives would do and should do if they take back Congress. So, listeners, be sure to check out her new project.

[Leah Littman]

I also wanted to wish a very special happy birthday to one Nikko Housen, who is in the audience all the way from Ann Arbor. So happy birthday to Nikko. Midwest groupies are the best.

[Melissa Murray]

We also have fans in the audience who have traveled even farther away than Ann Arbor to be with us here tonight. And among them in the audience is my former colleague and an amazing law librarian, Berkeley Law's Ramona Collins, who just retired after 24amazing years. So welcome, Ramona. Congratulations.

[Kate Shaw]

We also have with us some amazing not only friends, but also family of the pod. So my parents, who happen to be two great Chicagoans, Andy and Mary Shaw, are here.

[Melissa Murray]

Somewhere out there.

[Kate Shaw]

Taught me most things I know. Not everything, but most things. And last but not least, we want to shout out our phenomenal intern, Jordan Thomas, and. And his wonderfully supportive parents who traveled all the way from Jersey to rep the pod. So give it up for Jordan.

[Juliana Stratton]

And.

[Leah Littman]

One other very special birthday greeting to Jim Wickersham. Jim's son is one of the people making this live show happen and he told us you're a fan. So thank you so much for listening.

[Kate Shaw]

All right, we've got some housekeeping. First, I am going to shout out Shadow Kingdom. And this is a time you all don't need us to tell you that free speech and democracy are under attack. So Crooked has a story that is a really great way to show how power can be challenged. It's a story of one of the most powerful labor unions in the country, ruled with a corrupt president with ties to the mob. And in a turn of events, he gets ousted by young working class organizers who band together and fight, fight back. Through guerrilla tactics and underground newsletters and late night meetings, they end up building a labor revolution that ends with Tony Boyle, the union's president, in handcuffs. So the series is called Shadow Coal Survivor, and it's a must listen, so you can binge it now wherever you get your podcasts.

[Melissa Murray]

We also have a note from our good friends at Vote Save America Vote Save America is running a first of its kind pilot program to recruit candidates from Arizona, North Carolina and Texas. So we are talking about school board races, city council, state legislatures, all of the races that shape our communities and build the bench for long term progressive power. So if you are not in those states, do not worry, Vote Save America will connect you with incredible national partners at the National Democratic Training Committee and run for something to get you set up and ready to run anywhere in the country. And you can get on this right away. Vote Save America will be hosting a live call on Tuesday, October 7th at 5pm Pacific Time, 8pm Eastern Time to welcome new people to the program. And Tommy Viator, a friend of the pod, will be there along with Vote Save America's partners who are driving this work and they will break down everything it takes to run and how we can support you every step of the way. If you even thought about running. And I know that there are some people in the audience who are thinking about it or even doing it right now. I think there's someone who's running for office in Wisconsin. This is where you can start. So sign up for the call and learn more at votesaveamerica.com forward/run. This was paid for by Vote Save America and you can learn [e-mail] this ad has not been authorized by any candidate or candidates committee.

[Leah Littman]

And now to favorite things. Okay, yes. So Gilbert King's new book Bone Valley is out Tuesday. I read an advance copy and it is amazing. Lisa Graves has a book just out without how Chief Justice Roberts and his accomplices Rewrote the Constitution and dismantled our rights. Perfect start for the start of the term that is John Roberts 20th year on the bench. Also recommend One Battle After Another. A movie incredible. If it doesn't win Best Picture, we ride at midnight and I am going to start referring to the court as the Christmas Adventures Court. And if you've seen the movie, you know, and if you haven't, you should. Okay. Also, obviously the life of a showgirl. Yes. Okay. I don't have time to spell out all my complicated feelings about this album, which actually are complicated and nuanced. This isn't the set of Max Martin bangers we were promised. Some of it is kind of cringe, generic and superficial. And also this is probably what happens when your circle is now MAGA adjacent and your muse has the intellectual chops of Brett Kavanaugh like this is your brain on Travis Kelce, but a great first husband. Here's the thing really is it's still in my favorite things because I needed some new music and an escape and some of the tracks did that for me and made me happy. Like I love Elizabeth Taylor. Yes. Father figure. The life of a showgirl and cancelled and just to clarify, and canceled because I know it will be misappropriated and can be put to bad ends. And introducing it in this moment is a choice. But the lyrics resonated with me.

[Melissa Murray]

That's a lot of qualifiers.

[Leah Littman]

The lyrics resonated with me.

[Kate Shaw]

Leah's feelings are complicated.

[Leah Littman]

Exactly. And nuanced. And the parts the of Kate alluded to up top particularly it'll break your heart. At least you know exactly who your friends are. They're the ones with matching scars. So that's a favorite thing from this week.

[Narrator/Ad Reader]

All right.

[Kate Shaw]

I will identify a few favorite things right now. Chicago media on the ground covering what is happening. So wbez, Block Club Chicago, the revive Chicago Reader, folks on the ground from places like the Sun Times bearing witness to government overreach in Broadview, in Logan Square, all over the city. It's so important. They are so brave and they deserve all of our support. Also, to echo the lieutenant governor, Governor Pritzker, favorite things, all the energy we all need right now. And also Illinois's great lieutenant governor, who was amazing and brief meta commentary on Life of a Showgirl, which is here is my take on it. I think it's uneven. I think it's kind of disappointing in certain respects, but I actually think a life in the. She's demonstrating. Maybe bear with me for a sec. A life in the public eye where you have a lot of takes and you, you know, take a lot of swings like you will miss sometimes. And the life of a showgirl is like you get up the next day and you just do the damn thing again. And maybe we have seen her model that and that's energy I think we all need. So that's my take. And then totally different topic. Lily King, who I love, has a beautiful new novel called Heart the Lover. Oh, some people already know it. It just came out. Highly recommend that if you want to go someplace very different from that hellscape we're in.

[Melissa Murray]

Okay, I am not going to talk about the life of a showgirl. Okay. Among my favorite things this week, I loved the conversation between Ta Nehisi Coates and Ezra Klein. I just thought that Ta Nehisi Coates was so fantastic and clear, such moral clarity in this moment. And I thought he was terrific. I am also really, really excited about Tony Shalhoub's new docu series that premieres on Sunday on cnn. It's called Breaking Bread. I love Tony Shalhoub. Tony Shalhoub is a national treasure. He if you don't know him, he was in Monk. He was also in the movie Big Night, which was fantastic. He was also Miriam Maisel's father, Abe Weissman, and he was absolutely fantastic. I love it and I can't wait to watch. I also want to shout out if you are in New York City, there is a fantastic Off Broadway play called Mexico which I just saw last night. It is so fantastic. It is a rap musical in the manor of Hamilton. But instead of documenting Alexander Hamilton, it tells a story that none of us knows, but we all should know. And that story is that the Underground Railroad did not just run north to Canada, it also ran south to Mexico. And in the period between the Mexican American War and the United States Civil War, hundreds of thousands of enslaved people escaped across the Rio Grande into Mexico in order to live freely. And they are not telling us this. What a surprise. But you can hear this amazing story and amazing musicianship. Just a two man show. It's absolutely fantastic. It is playing until October 18th of the Audible Theater down in the Village. If you get to New York, see it. The other fantastic thing that I loved this week was the Other MM the Duchess of Sussex, Meghan Markle showing up at Paris Fashion Week at a Balenciaga show in an amazing white Balenciaga ensemble that proves she's not afraid of the British British Royal family or Staines. And she looked luminous, absolutely luminous. And I hearted it.

[Kate Shaw]

Thank you so much Chicago. This was wonderful.

[Melissa Murray]

Chicago, we love you.

[Kate Shaw]

Strict Scrutiny is a crooked media production hosted and executive produced by Leah Lippman, Melissa Murray and me, Kate Shaw. Produced and edited by Melody Rowell. Michael Goldsmith is our associate producer. Jordan Thomas is our intern. Audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Music by Eddie Cooper. Production support from Katie Long and Adrienne Hill. Matt de Groat is our head of production. And thanks to our digital team, Ben Hethcote, Joe Matoski and Johanna Case, our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. Subscribe to strict scrutiny on YouTube to catch full episodes. Find us at YouTube.com strictscrutinypodclass if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe to Strict Scrutiny in your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode. And if you want to help other people find the show, please rate and review us. It really helps.

[Juliana Stratton]

This ad is only 15 seconds.

[Melissa Murray]

In that amount of time, there are.

[Juliana Stratton]

Likely to be an average of over.

[Kate Shaw]

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[Leah Littman]

So there's no time to wait.

[Juliana Stratton]

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[Ad Voice]

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