Sometimes, These F*ckers Lose

Summary

STRICT SCRUTINY PODCAST – EPISODE SUMMARY
“SOMETIMES, THESE F*CKERS LOSE”
August 10, 2026

Overview
This episode, hosted by Melissa Murray with guest co-host Ellie Mystal (and later guest appearance by Leah Litman), delivers a brisk, irreverent, and incisive recap of a whirlwind week of U.S. Supreme Court and legal-political news. Titled “Sometimes, These F*ckers Lose,” the show focuses on surprising setbacks for conservative and anti-democratic forces, ongoing threats to institutions, and steely-eyed commentary on the choices and challenges facing American law and democracy. The episode maintains the show’s signature mix of deep legal analysis, current events, personal anecdotes, and witty banter.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Democracy Wins in the States: Missouri & Kansas [05:57–10:47]

• Missouri’s Fight Over Ballot Initiatives

  • The Missouri legislature tried to make citizen-led constitutional amendments nearly impossible, raising approval requirements (majority in each congressional district, not just statewide).
  • This change only applied to citizen-led amendments, not those from the legislature – revealed as “rank gamesmanship.”
  • Melissa: “It’s almost like a legislature that is gerrymandered...will actually try to control everything.” [08:02]
  • Result: Voters handily defeated this anti-democratic power grab—a “big loss for the Republicans...big win for democracy.” [08:44]

• Kansas Pushback on Court-Packing

  • After a 2019 state supreme court decision securing abortion rights, conservatives tried (and failed) to strip the court’s independence by making justices popularly elected.
  • Voters, once again, strongly rejected this attempt, preserving an independent judiciary.
  • Melissa: “Kansans...flooded the polls and they crushed that amendment the way that Cash Patel crushes beer cans against his head. Allegedly.” [10:37]

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2. Progressive Success and The Necessity of Supreme Court Reform [10:47–16:40]

• Michigan Senate Primary Issue

  • Progressive doctor Abdul El-Sayed wins the Michigan Democratic Senate primary.
  • Ellie applauds progressive energy but slams his “half-baked” position on court reform, especially on Supreme Court term limits (“10 years” is likely arbitrary).
    • Ellie: “His approach to court reform reeks of a person who has not talked to experts...just out here talking out of his ass.” [12:25]
  • Both stress that court reform isn’t the last, but first, step for progressive policy success, citing how current SCOTUS could block Medicare for All and other reforms.

• Notable Quote

  • Melissa: “You can’t talk about Medicaid for all and not reckon with the fact that once...passed...it’s going to go to the Supreme Court where these people are going to strike it down.” [13:17]
  • Ellie: “You fix the court or you get nothing. Even the most democratic socialist lefties...don’t get it.” [14:06]

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3. Controversies in Clemency and DOJ Actions [16:40–22:22]

• Post-January 6 Clemency Cases
  • Trump’s DOJ moves to dismiss charges against Jan 6 insurrectionists following presidential pardons/clemency.
  • Trump-appointed Judge Timothy Kelly: expresses regret but claims his hands are tied by the “primacy of the executive branch.”
    • Order Quote: “If this nation's experiment in self government is to last...the American people...must act together to preserve...that miracle through our constitutional framework.” [17:45]
  • Similar “pained” ruling by Judge Amit Mehta on Oath Keeper dismissals, who also warns of the public cost of letting these crimes go for political expediency.

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4. Weaponization of Law Against Progressives [22:22–26:20, [75:15–80:30]]

• Targeting the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) & Judicial Diversity

  • SPLC is indicted for alleged fraud, a move seen as retaliation for their anti-extremist legal work, with significant chilling effects on funding and partnerships.
  • Ellie: “The blast radius of this prosecution just keeps expanding,” noting how the Florida AG is now seeking impeachment of 11th Cir. Judge Nancy Abudu for her prior SPLC work. [23:52]

• Intended Effect

  • Melissa: “This is intended to have a chilling effect...on progressive lawyering. Full stop.” [25:00]
  • Both point out the political targeting of Black lawyers and judges.

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5. The Bizarre and Troubling Confirmation of Todd Blanche [26:20–39:47]

• Blanche’s Trump Ties & Senate Dance
  • Despite extreme conflicts (former Trump lawyer, questionable settlements, “anti-weaponization fund”), Blanche is confirmed as Attorney General.
  • Judiciary Committee drama with Senators Cornyn and Tillis grilling Blanche on disavowing the “anti-weaponization fund,” but ultimately folding and advancing his nomination.
  • Melissa: “With the Senate so closely divided, Blanche needs the whole Republican caucus...So he’s got to figure out a way to mollify their concerns. And as you say, [he] doesn’t mind being humiliated...” [33:23]
  • Ellie (on Cornyn/Tillis): “They all know this...We have to stop thinking that Republicans will ever grow a spine and stand up to this president...You become a Republican because you are a spineless coward who lives to lick boots.” [39:47]

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6. DOJ, Abortion, and Project 2025 [44:30–46:33]

• Blanche’s Off-the-Record Calls
  • Blanche tells anti-abortion activists he’ll “make Dobbs permanent in every state,” promising DOJ action on mifepristone (abortion drugs) and the old Comstock Act (which could ban pills by mail).
  • Melissa: “All that would be required here is a DOJ willing to enforce the Comstock Act...it seems that Todd Blanch has stepped up.” [45:24]

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7. Surprise: Jeanine Pirro as DOJ’s (Momentary) 'Box of Spine' [46:33–54:05]

• Refusing to Prosecute a Silly Vandalism Case
  • U.S. Attorney Jeanine Pirro drops charges against an Olympian accused of “vandalism” of the National Mall reflecting pool, despite intense pressure (including public criticism from Trump).
  • Melissa: “Does Jeanine Pirro...know who she works for? Because her daddy, the president, was not having it at all: ‘She folded like an umbrella.’” [49:43]
  • Ellie is gobsmacked: “Hard to imagine she just independently decided that this was a dogshit case that shouldn’t be taken. That’s not something I see Republicans do.” [52:29]
  • Speculation about whether she’ll be fired ("box of wine, now box of spine").

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8. DOJ vs. the Free Press [54:05–58:59]

• Aggressive Subpoenas to Journalists
  • DOJ delivers subpoenas to an NYT freelancer at home, bypassing usual protocols—signal of intended intimidation, not genuine investigation.
  • Dangers of this approach for smaller news organizations lacking the resources of large outlets, with the Gawker case as a key example.
  • Ellie: “[The] threat of a lawsuit...is the real threat to every non legacy organization out there. It restricts what you are able to say, not because you’re in the legal wrong, because you can’t afford to do it...” [58:59]

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9. Legal Academia & Attacks on DEI [58:59–65:33]

• ABA Standard 206 Under Threat
  • The Trump administration and allies pressure the ABA to drop its diversity accreditation standard (Standard 206).
  • ABA votes to keep it for now, but its future is tenuous, with potential severe consequences for law school diversity and professional access, especially for Black students and faculty.
  • Melissa: “Standard 206 is just like, literally, like, don’t be racist. Don’t be obviously racist.” [62:41]

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10. Public Health, Anti-Vaxxers, and Deregulation [67:20–73:12]

• RFK Jr. Interview & Policy Disaster
  • Health Secretary RFK Jr. dodges blame for a U.S. measles outbreak and points at COVID lockdowns, to incredulity and mockery.
  • Both hosts decry public acceptance of anti-scientific, deregulation-driven policies.
  • Ellie: “We’re all gonna die. And on purpose, right?...He’s out here wilding on all of our health and people just stand for it—it’s insane, it’s dangerous.” [68:52]
  • American deregulation and a “deregulated hellscape” leads to fears about basic food safety and outbreaks.

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11. Birthright Citizenship Attacked by Executive Orders [75:15–78:51]

• Trump Moves to Restrict Birthright Citizenship

  • Two executive orders target “birth tourism” and expand exceptions to the 14th Amendment, potentially denying citizenship to children of embassy staff and others.
  • Leah Litman: “What the administration seems to be trying to do is take a well recognized but extremely narrow exception...and just blow a hole through it and expand it beyond recognition.” [75:15]

• Court Challenges

  • DC Circuit rules Trump’s unauthorized White House demolition for ballroom construction is illegal; stay pending Supreme Court review.
  • Judge refuses to dismiss indictment against SPLC.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Theme of the Episode:
  • Ellie Mystal (07:10): “But happily, sometimes these motherfuckers lose.”
• On Court Reform:
  • Melissa Murray (13:17): “You can’t talk about Medicaid for all and not reckon with the fact that...it’s going to go to the Supreme Court where these people are going to strike it down.”
• On Republican Complicity:
  • Ellie (39:47): “You don’t become a Republican because you have decency...you are a spineless coward who lives to lick boots.”
• On Food Safety:
  • Melissa (72:20): “It’s just so unbelievable. Like, you cannot literally eat berries, right? ...Like, I was literally on a cabbage binge just eating every leafy green I could.”

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Legal News & State Democracy Wins: [05:57–10:47]
• Michigan, Court Reform, and Dem Progressives: [10:47–16:40]
• Jan 6th Clemency Drama: [16:40–22:22]
• SPLC Targeting & Judicial Smears: [22:22–26:20]
• Todd Blanche Confirmation Saga: [26:20–39:47]
• DOJ Abortion Policy/Comstock Act: [44:30–46:33]
• Jeanine Pirro’s Moment of Legal Integrity: [46:33–54:05]
• DOJ Intimidates Journalists: [54:05–58:59]
• ABA Standard 206/DEI in Law Schools: [58:59–65:33]
• Public Health, RFK Jr., Deregulation: [67:20–73:12]
• Trump’s New EO on Birthright Citizenship: [75:15–78:51]
• DC Circuit and Federal Court News: [78:51–80:30]

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Bonus Segments & Favorite Things [84:36–End]

• Ellie’s Favorite Thing:
  • SCOTUS grants cert in Jopy v. Alaska, a wild 8th amendment case about an Alaskan pilot losing his plane over a passenger’s six-pack of beer—“I could not be more excited for this goddamn case.” [88:08]
• Melissa’s Joys:
  • Eating vegetables safely in the UK; meeting podcast fans in the wild; new novel “Crash Into Me” by Robin Lee.

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Tone & Language

• Incisive, unfiltered, deeply informed, and playful. The hosts blend passionate analysis with sharp, often profane wit (“sometimes these motherfuckers lose,” “box of wine, box of spine”), seamlessly moving from granular legal breakdowns to cultural zingers and big-picture political frustration.

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Conclusion

This episode of Strict Scrutiny offers a sweeping, sometimes grim—but not hopeless—view of the legal and political fights playing out across the country. It celebrates rare but meaningful wins for democracy, skewers hypocrisy and cowardice from those in power, and calls for clarity, courage, and competence in the ongoing struggle over the courts, civil rights, and democratic norms. The episode closes, as always, with notes of personal joy and reading recommendations, ensuring listeners are both informed and uplifted.

Transcript

[Melissa Murray]

Stuck Scrutiny is brought to you by Americans United for Separation of church and state. 250 years into the American experiment, it's time for all of us to decide, what kind of country do we want to be? The Founding Fathers got a lot of things wrong, but one thing they got right was knowing that church and state need to be kept separate. Christian nationalists are trying to destroy that history and take this country down a scary path. They're misusing government power to impose their beliefs, rewrite our history, and decide who belongs in America. We refuse to let that happen. Every single day. Americans United is fighting back and holding the line against Christian nationalism with everything we've got. Au has sued the Trump administration seven times in the last year alone and 12 times since his second administration began. They've challenged government officials who use taxpayer resources to promote their religious beliefs. They're exposing abuses of power, defending public schools, and holding the government accountable when it violates the Constitution. But filing lawsuits, changing policy, and community advocacy don't happen on their own. They happen because people like you decide to be part of the fight. If you're looking for an empowered community to join, take a look at what's going on with AU. Visit AU.org crooked to learn more and join the fight today. Start your morning with the news that matters. Every day. NPR's Up first brings you the three biggest stories in under 15 minutes. They go into what happened and why it matters. It's short and thorough, fact based and personable, with national and international news in one easy listen. Listen to Up first from NPR, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ellie Mystal]

Mr. Chief justice, please, the court. It's an old joke, but when an argument man argues against two beautiful ladies like this, they're going to have the last word.

[Melissa Murray]

She spoke not elegantly, but with unmistakable clarity. She said, I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is

[Ellie Mystal]

that they take their feet off our necks.

[Melissa Murray]

Hello, and welcome back to Strict Scrutiny, your podcast about the Supreme Court and the legal culture that surrounds it. I'm Melissa Murray and I will be your host for today. And I am delighted to be joined by a very special guest host, someone you can always count on to bring the chaos that is right. Friend of the pod, Ellie Mostall is here today. Welcome, Ellie.

[Ellie Mystal]

Thank you so much for having me. How has your summer been?

[Melissa Murray]

Um, it's been pretty great. Um, we've been taking turns on the podcast, so we've all gotten a little bit of a break. But it means that I've kind of missed being with the Ladies, miss talking to the audience and definitely missed hanging out with you because I think the last time we hung out was at the live show in June, and it was pretty fun.

[Ellie Mystal]

Well, my lexicon has really improved by leaps and bounds since then because my kids are off of camp, and I have learned that I don't have enough aura to keep up with my kids. I'm too unk, for sure. And I'm basically just cheeks when it comes to understanding what my kids are doing. So that's been a huge education for me.

[Melissa Murray]

I understood aura. I know that you have to be Aura farming all the time. I know why you're an unk. I don't know what cheeks means.

[Ellie Mystal]

Trash. I'm too trash. Two cheeks.

[Melissa Murray]

Oh, my. These kids are savage.

[Ellie Mystal]

Yes. Apparently. Also, I'm now too old. The real thing is that I can't beat them in Smash Brothers anymore. Like, I. I just can't. Like trying my hardest. I cannot. And it is a problem.

[Melissa Murray]

Well, I. I don't even know what that is. You said words that just sounded like a word salad to me. So, anyway. All right, listeners, we have a great show for you today. First, Ellie and I will break down the breaking news from this week and be prepared. There is a lot of news. And then, as always, we will wrap up by sharing our favorite things. But before we get into the show, we have some exciting news. If you are a lawyer who listens to strict scrutiny, and I know there are a lot of you, guess what? You can now get CLE credit for listening to the pod. What could be better? Something you already do can now satisfy your professional licensing requirements. I mean, hello, what better option is there? We just launched our first CLE course. It is our SCOTUS term recap episode that came out in the first week of July, and right now it is approved for CLE credit in California, New York, Texas, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Virginia, North Carol, Georgia, Washington, and Oregon. And we will keep you updated as more states are added. So this is something new that we're trying, and if enough people sign up, we will hopefully add more episodes in the future. So let us know how you like it. Head over to cricut.com strictcle to learn more and to buy the course. And once you've purchased, head over to our partners at Lawline, an accredited CLE provider who's responsible for CLE administration, and you can access the episode there for course credit. So happy continuing education, folks. This is going to be great. Also, listeners, watch the space, meaning watch the strict scrutiny feed because we've got the first of our summer bonus series episodes coming out this Thursday. This is going to be the first of two episodes in a series that we're calling Know your Rights. And we will have another separate bonus series that's out next month. So stay tuned. All kinds of great stuff for this summer, but the great stuff starts right now because we are going to start today's show. So, Ellie, shall we begin?

[Ellie Mystal]

Let's do it.

[Melissa Murray]

All right. Okay. So let's start off with some legal news. We should talk about the recent primary. So Tuesday was primary, election day in a number of states. And those contests are going to shape the general election in November, which will determine control of both houses of Congress and whether the federal legislature will be a meaningful check on this president in the second half of his second term. But it's also important to recognize that the primaries were also evidence of the long tail of the court's 2022 decision, Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization. That's the case that overruled Roe vs Wade and sent the abortion question back to the states. As we've discussed on this podcast before, in a number of states where direct democracy vehicles were available, the people actually did make their voices heard by enacting ballot measures that would secure reproductive freedom statewide. In the wake of Dobbs. And despite Dobbs saying explicitly that the abortion question should be decided by the people, some folks took the whole prospect of actual democracy personally. So in the years since Dobbs, conservative forces have tried to limit the use of direct democracy as a means of advancing reproductive freedom and other progressive causes.

[Ellie Mystal]

But happily, sometimes these motherfuckers lose. That's what happened on Tuesday night in Missouri. The Republican controlled state legislature incensed that Missourians had used ballot measures to pass Medicaid expansion, to raise the minimum wage and to legalize marijuana to and sports betting, to require paid sick leave and to establish a right to abortion, try to make it harder to enact citizen sponsored amendments to the state's constitution.

[Melissa Murray]

So we've seen this playbook before. We've talked about it before here. The Missouri State Legislature specifically proposed a ballot measure that would have amended the state's constitution to change the threshold for actually enacting an amendment to the constitution. So this time it would require a majority in each of the state's eight congressional districts rather than what had been required before, which was a simple majority statewide. That would have been the highest threshold requirement in any of the 18 states that allow citizens groups to place constitutional amendments on the ballot. And you know, weirdly the higher threshold to enact a measure would not have applied to any measure that the legislature proposed. It would only apply to citizen proposed measures. So the ones proposed by the legislature would still only require a simple majority to pass. So, I mean, if this doesn't just completely smell of just rank gamesmanship, I don't know what does. I mean, it's almost like a legislature that is gerrymandered to ensure Republican control will actually try to control everything. I mean, am I missing something?

[Ellie Mystal]

Nope. That's. That's what they wanted. But Missourians, the people in the show meat state, decided to show the Republicans these votes by defeating the measure at the ballot box.

[Melissa Murray]

That was a big loss for the Republicans in Missouri.

[Ellie Mystal]

They don't get and a big win for democracy.

[Melissa Murray]

Well, yeah, right. I mean, like, that part is crazy. I mean, like the state legislature in Missouri was literally trying to shit on democracy. And happily the people in Missouri said, fuck that. Not far away in Kansas, there was another election night win. So listeners, you will recall that in 2019, the Kansas Supreme Court decided a case that established a right to abortion under the Kansas constitution. And as a result of that ruling, Kansas is literally the last bastion of reproductive care in the Midwest, which has become basically an abortion desert. And predictably, the Republican controlled legislature in Kansas took that personally. So they have been trying to overturn this 2019 decision for years, including proposing in August 2022 a ballot initiative that would have amended the state constitution to foreclose the right to abortion recognized in that 2019 case. Famously, Kansans, just months after Dobbs headed to the polls and defeated the ballot measure. This time, the Kansas legislature had yet another attempt to try and unwind the 2019 decision. This involved a ballot measure that would have required state supreme court justices to be popularly elected rather than appointed by the governor. And once again, Kansans did not disappoint. They flooded the polls and they crushed that amendment the way that Cash Patel crushes beer cans against his head. Allegedly. Allegedly. That. That is what I've heard. So, yeah, like great news. We talked about this a lot before the primaries. We talked about it on this podcast. I'm so glad that the people came out and just said enough of this nonsense.

[Ellie Mystal]

The biggest primary news on the left was the big progressive win in Michigan. Abdul Al said a progressive doctor won the primary for Senate. And that has had progressives, that has had people on the left singing Kumbaya and linking hands. And I'm not there yet, folks, because once again, we have a person running for Senate on the Democratic side who seems to not understand the importance of court reform. So for all of these progressive policies that this man wants to follow, let's look at what he actually says about court reform. Right? He says that he supports a 10 year term limit, which. Okay, we get it. Term limits are super popular. You need a. But we get why people are all in favor of term limits. But why is it 10 years? Put a pin in that thought, right? Then he also supports some kind of bat guano. Pete Buttigieg. Each president can make a set number of appointments or, or apparently nominate the person who is about to get out on a 10 year term limit for, for another 10 years. So, so that'll be 20 years. So what's the point of your term limits if you can just renominate these people? What if they do a good job? That's what we want. Oh, make sure that you vote the way I want you to vote. Justice, who is almost up for your term limit or else you going to be out of a job in three months or you can be out of a job in another 10 years. Like, how does that even make sense? And the thing is, Melissa, like, look, this man's a doctor, all right? He passed Orgo. I couldn't. He has a different set of skills. But his approach to court reform reeks of a person who has not talked to the experts about it and is instead just out here talking out of his ass. It's like if I was trying to diagnose, diagnose my tumor by going to WebMD and ChatGPT, right? And Abdul El said if I tried to do that, I'd be like, that's not the way you diagnose a tumor, son. Well, let me tell you, this is not the way that you diagnose the tumor that is the Supreme Court right now. And I, and I just don't understand how even progressive, allegedly progressive Democrats can't get the memo on this.

[Melissa Murray]

So I, I think this is such an important conversation to have. Like, I mean, it was an enormous win in Michigan. You know, some people said that, you know, he didn't win by as much as I thought he would given the polling. But still, I, I think it's a really important win. It says a lot about where people are and their dissatisfaction with the status quo. This court is the status quo. And if you're going to be a progressive candidate, you've got to talk about this. You can't talk about Medicaid for all and not reckon with the fact that once a Medicaid for all bill is passed. And you know, once that happens, it's going to go to the Supreme Court where these people are going to strike it down. I mean, like, you have to have a really considered plan. And it has to be again, as you say, like, term limits is just the tip of the iceberg here. Like, let's really have a more meaningful conversation about what it would require to make the court less of an impediment to actual democracy.

[Ellie Mystal]

It's the first step. People always want to treat court reform as if it's the last step, but it's actually the first step because if you don't reform the Supreme Court, as you just pointed out, Melissa, all of your other plans get punted into the sun by Neil Gorsuch. Right. Medicaid for all. Are you kidding me? Did you not see what they basically did to Obamacare? They will have a fight on the right to see who gets to write the opinion punting Medicaid for all into the sun. So you fix the court or you get nothing. And that's what even the most progressive, the most lefty, the most. I'm a democratic socialist now. They don't get it. I can't have your democratic socialist utopia unless you have Supreme Court reform.

[Melissa Murray]

All right, so can you just pause and contemplate for a moment that a graduate of Yale Law School and a graduate of Harvard Law School are more to the left of the democratic socialists of America?

[Ellie Mystal]

It's insane. It's insane.

[Melissa Murray]

Where are the institutionalists here anyway?

[Ellie Mystal]

I walked on Wall Street.

[Melissa Murray]

Amen.

[Ellie Mystal]

What the hell is wrong with you people?

[Melissa Murray]

Amen. And the other thing too that's so wild about it is that it's not like court reform or even just broaching the topic of court reform in a thicker way is unpopular right now. People actually want to hear you talking about it, so I don't know, miss it.

[Ellie Mystal]

But they need a real plan like

[Melissa Murray]

the

[Ellie Mystal]

10 year term limits. That is something that he pulled out of his ass. Cause if you really dig into the number, the reason why is usually the

[Melissa Murray]

number people talk about.

[Ellie Mystal]

And the reason why is because that's how you make the math work. If you want each president to have two appointments per term and nine justices, then you need 18 year terms. So when he says 10 years, that already tells me that you haven't done the math even on it. You've just pulled a number out of your ass that you think sounds nice and sounds palatable without actually digging in to why the numbers work the way they work.

[Melissa Murray]

So here's the good news. Couple months until November. There's time to get a better plan and to get a better position on court reform. And I hope that he and the other candidates who prevailed in these primaries will do so.

[Ellie Mystal]

And let me know if he calls you. Right. Because again, if you're, if you are, he should be calling experts. Let me know if he calls you. Let me know if he calls Leah. He's from freaking Michigan.

[Melissa Murray]

He's from freaking Michigan.

[Ellie Mystal]

Oh, yeah, she's right there. She can explain it to him. Right. So let me know when, when you guys get the call.

[Melissa Murray]

All right. So, like, this is not too. It was good news on primary night. Great news in Missouri, great news in Kansas. But listeners can't all be good news on this podcast. So let's now pivot to a standard diet of Article 2 shenanigans. So, first up, listeners, you all know that one of Donald J. Trump's first acts as president, the second time, was to provide clemency to the individuals charged with and convicted of crimes relating to the January 6th insurrection on the Capitol. In response to that action, the Department of Justice, or I guess the Department of Injustice, has taken steps to have those charges against the insurrectionists dismissed. Earlier in July, Judge Timothy Kelly, in a very tortured written order, dismissed charges against some members of the Proud Boys. I say the order was tortured because Judge Kelly was definitely going through it when he dismissed the charges. So in the order, he conceded that his hands were tied and that the president's views of the Capitol riot, whether based in, quote, fact or fiction, were well known. He then concluded the order by noting that, quote, if this nation's experiment in self government is to last another 250 years, the American people, no matter their partisan preferences, to act together to preserve, protect and defend that miracle through our constitutional framework.

[Ellie Mystal]

And just so we're clear, Judge Kelly is no liberal squish, all right? He is a Trump appointee who previously served as the Chief Counsel for National Security and the senior crime Counsel to the U.S. senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Chuck Grassley.

[Melissa Murray]

I mean, that part to me as well. I mean, when people talk about, like, Judge Kelly, a Trump nominee, I imagine he was probably in the Federalist Society before taking the bench. Like, he's hand wringing about this, I think. I mean, like, he's hand wringing about this. This was hard for him. And, you know, he was not alone in holding his nose and dismissing these charges against known insurrectionists. So last week, Judge Amit Mehta, Kelly's colleague on the District of the District of Columbia bench, again at the request of the Department of Justice, dismissed charges against members of the Oath Keepers, including the leader of the Oath Keepers, E. Stewart Rhodes. So, like Kelly, Judge Mehta seemed pained to issue this order. The first three pages of the order are devoted to recounting in very careful detail the crimes for which the defendants were convicted. And even as the order concedes the primacy of the executive branch in criminal prosecutions, it concludes with an admonition of the prosecutors seeking the dismissal, noting, quote, if it is the prosecutor's view that the public interest is served by surrendering convictions for crimes against the country to the gloss of an enduring public record, then that is an assessment to which this court must yield. Yowza. I mean, like, that's pretty firm if you're a judge, right?

[Ellie Mystal]

I mean, and sad. Like, I mean, he, he's, he's. You can almost hear the sad trombone as he, as he's writing that, right?

[Melissa Murray]

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. You've heard me talk about BetterHelp for a long time, but I don't know that we've ever actually talked about how much people love this service when they use it. You can check it out [e-mail] reviews to see amazing customer reviews in real time. The reviews are updated every day with hundreds of people saying how much they love BetterHelp and how helpful it's been to them. Please visit betterhelp.com reviews to see for yourself. BetterHelp has an average live therapy session rating of 4.9 out of 5 based on over 1.7 million client session reviews. The feedback from people who have actually used the service speaks for itself. More than 6 million people have used BetterHelp globally. The consistent feedback from real users makes it easy to see why so many people continue to use BetterHelp. BetterHelp therapists have at least 3 years and 1000 hours of hands on experience. They also hold all required education, training and certifications across a range of mental health specialties. BetterHelp makes it easy to get started, answer a few questions, get matched with a therapist based on your needs, and switch therapists at any time if it's not the right fit. So see the reviews, see what stands out and see if BetterHelp is right for you. Visit betterhelp.com strict that's betterhelp.com/strrict. Strict scrutiny is brought to you by Amra Colostrum. True self reliance starts with taking control of your health. Amra Colostrum is nature's original solution. Colostrum is packed with over 400 bioactive nutrients that fortify gut health and strengthen immune health to build resilience at the cellular level. Because when you invest in your health, you invest in your ability to show up, to think clearly and to stay in control no matter what life throws your way. I've been using Armor Colostrum to help with my hair and skin health. Armor Colostrum's 400 plus bioactive nutrients work like a blueprint for your body, promoting your cell's natural renewal processes to support skin, hair, gut health, metabolism, immune health, lean muscle and whole body vitality. And we've worked out a special offer for the Strict Scrutiny audience. You can receive 30% off your first subscription order. Go to armra.comstrict or enter Strict to get 30% off your first subscription order. That's a R M R A dot com Strict.

[Ellie Mystal]

And the hits just keep on coming. Melissa, let's go to your I know you don't like to admit this. Your home state where you was raised, where are you from?

[Melissa Murray]

I'm not of Florida. I'm just from Florida.

[Ellie Mystal]

Let's go to Florida. Let's go to Florida. The Department of Justice's campaign to tamp down dissenters has included retribution against the President's perceived enemies, as well as organizations that are concerned with the issues that do not align with the administration's preferred agenda. You know, like advancing racial justice and identifying white supremacists. That's likely why the Southern Poverty Law center has found itself in the DOJ's crosshairs. In April, the Department of justice sought and secured an 11 count federal grand jury indictment against the SPLC on grounds that the organization has been engaged in fraud.

[Melissa Murray]

Right. So there's been a lot of coverage of the impact of the indictment. You know, obviously it has made the SPLC very visible and not in a good way. It's likely deterred contributions to the organization's donations, partners, partnerships with other organizations for their work. And to be very clear, the SPLC's work has been to advance racial justice in the south and to oppose violent extremism by doing, among other things, naming hate groups that are committed to, among other things, white supremacy. So, like, this has been bad for the splc, but it's going to get worse, I think?

[Ellie Mystal]

Yes, because the blast radius of this prosecution just keeps expanding. Last Monday, Florida AG James James Ubermensch. I'm sorry, that's not his name. James Ulfmeyer demanded that Congress initiate an impeachment inquiry into the 11th Circuit Judge Nancy Abudu, citing her prior work for the SPLC and the ongoing prosecution of the organization. So again, they're citing the fact that she used to work for a place as a reason to impeach her from her current job. For additional context, in 2023, Abutu became the first black woman, like I needed to tell you, to serve on the 11th Circuit, which hears appeals from Florida, Georgia, and Alabama, with its sizable black populations. Prior to her judicial appointment, Boudou served as the SPLC's director for strategic litigation, which, according to Uthmeyer, means that she was all in on the SPLC's alleged fraudulent conduct.

[Melissa Murray]

So I want to be really clear about this. It's not obvious that Uthmeyer's demands will necessarily result in an impeachment inquiry. So Congress actually has to decide to take up this inquiry and investigate it, which is why the midterms continue to be really important. Securing control of Congress will not only allow for oversight of this lawless administration, it would also, I think, help prevent the reckless and continued effort to smear and ruin the careers of black people in all facets of employment. But I think we have to be really clear about what this is intended to do. One, the indictment against the SPLC is supposed to scare other progressive organizations out of doing the work that they do, which is often suing the government, holding the allies of this government accountable for what they do, sometimes just naming the allies of this government as allies. And more importantly, I think this is intended to send a message to progressive lawyers about how they spend their time and whether or not they would like to seek judicial appointments in the future. Basically meant to have a chilling effect on this kind of progressive lawyering. Full stop.

[Ellie Mystal]

Especially if they. Black, Right?

[Melissa Murray]

Well, I agree.

[Ellie Mystal]

Especially if they're black. Like, you're. You're correct. Right. Like, that's. This. This does not happen to Judge Nancy James. All right, that's not. That's not. You know, Judge Nancy McTierney does not have this happen to her.

[Melissa Murray]

Yeah. Yeah. So I think one way to sort of think about it is about just this. The use of DOJ resources to limit and control efforts to critique, to dissent against the administration's policy, the policies of its allies. It's also, I think, you know, part and parcel of this campaign against people of color in positions of authority that we've also seen this administration engage in. Which brings me to another facet of this administration. You know, Ellie, I will admit it. I was one of the sweet summer children who thought that Todd Blanche's confirmation process would be a knockdown, drag out, fight, because why wouldn't it, right? This is a man who served as Donald Trump's personal defense counsel in a case that resulted in the future former whatever president being convicted 34 times by a New York City jury. Todd Blanche is the man who, quote, unquote, interviewed Ghislaine Maxwell in prison and then had very little to say about why the convicted sex offender was subsequently relocated to a minimum security facility. Todd Blanche was the man who so bungled the release of the Epstein files that survivors were compelled to protest his nomination and confirmation process. He is the man who, at the president's response request, agreed to settle a case that the president, as a private citizen, brought against the irs, a federal agency that the president, as a president oversees. And that's not even all. He's the man who, as part of that settlement, agreed to establish a, quote, unquote, anti weaponization fund that would disperse taxpayer money to January 6 insurrectionists, among others, and agreed to give the president his fail sons and his company tax immunity. So I would think that all of those things in the aggregate would make Todd Blanche the third rail. Like, genuinely unconfirmable. But what do I know?

[Ellie Mystal]

Is he, though? Is he genuinely unconfirmable? Pathetic, bootlicking Republican senators?

[Melissa Murray]

Really? Because I just, I thought this guy was like, there's no way. I was like, there's no way this guy's getting through. Like, what? Like, what am I smoking? Why am I not vaping?

[Ellie Mystal]

Cause you were thinking that he was Matt Gaetz. And the thing about Matt Gaetz that makes him different than most of these other Republican senators is that Matt Gaetz

[Melissa Murray]

is a frat paddle turned into a real life boy, is that he gave

[Ellie Mystal]

up Matt Gaetz gave up Matt Gaetz, decided he didn't want that smoke. But if you want that smoke, if you're willing to stand there and be humiliated for long enough in the name of Trump, eventually you'll win. And stamina and staying power. Todd Blanche's willingness to sit up there and be humiliated for days is all it took for him to eventually get confirmed.

[Melissa Murray]

Well, I think it took a little bit more. It did take outwitting Thom Tillis and John Cornyn, which I have to say, probably didn't take a lot of work.

[Ellie Mystal]

I'm sorry, you have to outwit, like, you know, a bale of cabbage to do. Um, here's how it went down, listeners. As you know, Donald Trump basically ended Tillis and Cornyn's political careers when he backed Their primary challengers. Right. And so for a while, Tillis and Cornyn seemed like they were in full DGAF mode. Right. When it came to the president, they were in YOLO mode.

[Melissa Murray]

They were, like, full on Virgos, vengeful. Like, they looked like they were gonna bring the noise, and I was here for it.

[Ellie Mystal]

Right. And in fact, Tillison, Cornyn gave Todd Blanche the business during the confirmation process. Right. Take a listen to Cornyn pressing Blanche on whether the weaponization fund is really dead. I believe you have said that the weaponization fund is a moot issue. Is that your position? Yes, it is a moot issue. Meaning there is no weaponization fund. The web position fund is dead. It's not moving forward. Well, I would refer you to the settlement agreement. Do you have to have a copy of that in front of you? I do not. Okay, well, you probably know what's. What's in it. I'm familiar with it. Yes, I'm sure you are. On page four. This settlement agreement can be modifier, may be modified only upon the written agreement of the parties. Has there been a written agreement of the parties to modify the settlement fund? No. The settlement fund's just not moving forward. There's not. There's no modification. It's just. It never started. No money went from the treasury to any other account. There's no commissioners. It's not moving forward. Well, so the settlement agreement remains as it was originally. But you're. I hear what you're saying is it. Is the settlement agreement enforceable as a contract by the parties? Well, yes, it's an enforceable document. So I suppose if President Trump's counsel sought to enforce it, they potentially could. Including the weaponization fund. Well, they could try to enforce the contract. They can't force the Department of Justice to move forward with the weaponization fund. They could potentially say that, I suppose, that we breached by not moving forward. They haven't done that. And I'm, I'm. I'm not aware that they're planning on doing that.

[Melissa Murray]

All right, let me just, like, break this down. John Cornyn is a lawyer, right? He's a lawyer twice over. He has a J.D. from St. Mary's School of Law, and he has an LLM from the University of Virginia. Wahoo Wa. He knows that Todd Blanche can't do shit around this settlement agreement that he cannot unilaterally stop this settlement agreement. Like he's talking about. Is the settlement an enforceable contract? If it is an enforceable, then the parties to the contract are the ones that have to agree not to do it. And that's Donald Trump, his fail sons, and the Trump organizations. He knows that Todd Blanche cannot independently just address this and kill the fund dead. This is a man who is not just a US Senator. He is a former justice of the Texas Supreme Court. He knows the law. And that whole colloquy with Todd Blanche made clear that he knew that Todd Blanche could not unilaterally kill this fund.

[Ellie Mystal]

And yet he was using it to put his foot up Blanche's ass. Right. Like he wanted to bring that out into the public just how dirty this man was. But I think it also shows, Melissa, something that Republicans only seem to get when they're out of office or when they're almost out of office, that they don't trust the administration as far as they can throw them, which they shouldn't. Which they shouldn't. But they only remember that when they're halfway out the door.

[Melissa Murray]

All right, so I'm just gonna say, in this moment, it seemed very clear that John Cornyn knew the score. He was up Todd Blanche's ass, and he was not gonna go quietly into this. And that was meaningful for Todd Blanche because with the Senate so closely divided, Blanche needs the whole Republican caucus to back him in order to have a chance at confirmation on the Senate floor. So he needs Tillis and Cornyn to sign off just to get out of the committee and then get to the Senate floor. So he's got to figure out a way to mollify the concerns that Tillis and Cornyn have. And as you say, Todd Blanche doesn't mind being humiliated. He doesn't mind auditioning, and he doesn't mind saying what he has to say. But I think what he didn't count on was that Tillis and Cornyn would literally fold. Like folding chairs on an Alabama riverboat dock. Right. That's a deep cut. It's a deep cut in honor of August 5th. Not everyone will get it, but I'm glad you did.

[Ellie Mystal]

But the ones who did got a nice Easter egg there, so. Yeah, so you're exactly right. But they did fold.

[Melissa Murray]

No, I mean, like. Right. That's like he wasn't counting on them folding. So the heart wants what it wants. And Todd Blanche's heart really wanted to be Attorney General. For real? For real. And so he decided, I guess, to give Tillis and Cornyn what they said they wanted. Or did he? Right. So early last week, Todd Blanche released two statements. The first, which was a memorandum that Todd Blanche signed, said that the anti weaponization Fund would be rescinded immediately. The second statement, which was unsigned and released by the Department of Justice, clarified the terms of the tax immunity for the President. His fail sons and his companies would be retrospective as opposed to retrospective and prospective, which was originally the concern. So that's an important limit. But, but all of this is still a significant stop to the President. It also doesn't address the concerns that John Cornyn was airing in that colloquy that Todd Blanche really doesn't have the authority to do anything. Right. That you need the parties to agree to this and they won't.

[Ellie Mystal]

And you know who does have the authority? That's President Donald Trump. And it wasn't clear that Blanch had actually asked his daddy, Donald Trump, and run any of this up the flagpole. Here's the President fielding questions about Todd's assurances and the modifications to the settlement terms. I didn't look at it. All I know is that Todd Blanche is great. He's going to do a great job. Everybody knows it. And I understand there's been a sign off, but I don't know what they agreed. I think Todd Blanchard agreed to, to reconfirm things that he's already said. And what he said was, okay, please go ahead.

[Melissa Murray]

All right, so this is amazing, right? He has no idea and like ostensibly he wouldn't have signed off if Todd Blanche had actually done anything to really kill the fund. And he has no idea what's going on. It's like Todd Blanche is basically talking out of his ass and everyone knows it immediately. Reporters, many of whom do not even have law degrees, begin pointing out that there are numerous loopholes in the two statements. Some noted that even before the anti weaponization fund was a glimmer in the President's eye, the DOJ had already begun dispersing taxpayer funds to convicted anti abortion protesters, Trump campaign allies and others. And that the Department of Justice could continue to negotiate those kinds of taxpayer funded settlements even if there wasn't an anti weaponization fund. So killing the fund probably wouldn't matter. And it was also clear that the statements that Todd Blanche was making were not necessarily legally binding. The settlement terms were negotiated between the irs, the president as private citizen, his fail sons and his company. This was the point of the colloquy with John Cornyn. None of this made any sense. That Todd Blanche by himself could modify the settlement without the agreements of the parties. And you know, then there's a whole thing that the quote unquote settlement proceeded from an actual lawsuit that may not have been able to be in federal court in the first instance, given that the President was on both sides of the V. So there's still these open questions about whether the effort to settle this case constituted a fraud on the court itself. And yet.

[Ellie Mystal]

Yes, but again, all you had to do was outwit a head of Lettice. Right. Because despite those very serious questions, Blanche's assurances seemed to mollify Tillis and Cornyn, both of whom happily cast their votes to advance Blanche's nomination to the full Senate for confirmation. In case you were wondering, the vote was a party line vote, very close because the Senate is closely divided, but it was 12 to 10. Here's Senator Cornyn commenting on his cowardice. I mean, on the situation.

[Melissa Murray]

Was saying as recently as yesterday he likes the idea of this fund, that he wants to find some way to pay these people. Does that concern you as someone who's tried to fight against getting this anti weaponization?

[Ellie Mystal]

Well, there's nothing we could do to rein in the President when he said he likes the fund and he wishes still exists, but the fact of the matter, it's dead. And that's all we could do under these circumstances.

[Melissa Murray]

All right.

[Ellie Mystal]

You know who Cornyn is? Wrong. You know who Cornyn is?

[Melissa Murray]

What?

[Leah Litman]

Go.

[Melissa Murray]

I'm sorry, we're talking.

[Ellie Mystal]

Cornyn is the guy in Pulp Fiction who says, I'm not a hero. I'm just a coffee shop manager. Like, he's that guy. He's just a coffee shop manager. He is not a hero. He does not have a spine. He is a coward. And he showed us all right there

[Melissa Murray]

again, I come back to, like, John Cornyn knows that these statements that Todd Blanche has made to mollify him and Thom Tillis are basically meaningless. He knows this and he still voted anyway. He also knows that one way that they all could have made sure that this fund was dead was for Congress to pass legislation killing the fund. Right? Yep.

[Ellie Mystal]

I mean, they all know that.

[Melissa Murray]

They all know that. So this whole idea, like, there's nothing we can do to rein in this president. Article one would like a word. What? Like what are we talking about? Like, the whole idea of separation of powers. Would like a word. It's just. It's so gross. It's just so gross.

[Ellie Mystal]

But here's the thing, Lyssa. We have to stop thinking that Republicans will ever grow a spine and stand up to this president. Right? Even the ones that the president has humiliated. Even the ones that the president has kicked out of his inner circle. Even the ones as in the case of Tillis and Cornyn that the President has literally taken their jobs away. They'll never grow a spine. If they had a spine, if they had a conscience, if they had decency, they wouldn't be Republicans in the first place, right? You don't become a Republican because you have decency. You don't become a Republican because you have a spine. Because you have commitment to the people. You become a Republican because you are a spineless coward who lives to lick boots. And that's who Cornyn is. And that's who Thom Tillis is. And that is who they will always be, regardless of what this particular President does to them.

[Melissa Murray]

Strict scrutiny is brought to you by ZBiotics. Between work, family responsibilities and everyone needing something from me all day, getting together with friends friends is a form of self care for me. Whether it's a glass of wine at dinner or a long overdue girls night out, I make sure to drink Zebiotics Pre Alcohol before alcohol so I can enjoy the evening and still feel ready for whatever tomorrow can bring. Zebiotics Pre Alcohol Probiotic drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after a night of drinking. Here's how it works. When you drink, drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in your gut. It's a buildup of this byproduct, not dehydration, that's to blame for your rough days after drinking. Pre alcohol produces an enzyme to break that byproduct down. So just remember to make pre alcohol your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly and you'll feel your best tomorrow. The weekends where I say yes to every plan are always the most fun. It's even better when I end the weekend with my energy still intact, without couch rotting and without the Sunday scaries. You can drink like there is a tomorrow with Zebiotics Pre Alcohol, which I call my little insurance policy. So, wedding season, bachelorette parties, rooftop birthdays. August doesn't slow down and neither do you. Pre Alcohol keeps it that way. Go to zbiotics.com strict and use code STRICT for 15% off. Strict scrutiny is brought to you by Ora Frames. You know that amazing vacation? The one with the fantastic photo of you and your family just loving everything, loving each other, having the best time. You know, you always want to have it on display. Where are you going to put it, that beautiful picture? What it means to you? How are you going to display it? Have I got an idea? Aura Frames allows you to experience those moments of nostalgia all the time, every moment. You don't have to pick and choose. You don't have to have a single frame. You don't have to have a collection of frames. All you need is one aura frame and all your memories can be stored in that one place. Aura frames are COMPTECH certified or frames enhance daily life without overwhelming it or you surfacing meaningful memories in a way that feels ambient and additive. And it's top rated. Aura frames reach number one in the App Store on Christmas Day in 2025 because everybody knows an aura frame is the perfect gift. Aura Framed was named number one by wire cutter and you can save next now by visiting auraframes.com and for a limited time, strict scrutiny listeners can get $35 off select frames plus free shipping with code STRICT. That's a frames.com promo. Code STRICT. And you can support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. All right, so that's not even all to say about the prospect of Todd Blanche going from auditioning attorney General to attorney general. For real. For real. Politico broke a story about a conference call that Todd Blanche participated in. In this conference call, Blanche, it is reported, promised anti abortion activists who were part of the group of faith leaders on this telephone conference call. He promised them that he would make Dobbs permanent in every state. What does that even mean, given that, as we have discussed, Dobbs is supposed to allow political processes, democracy, the people, to decide whether to make abortion available in their states? And why does Todd Blanche seem to think that he has the authority given Dobbs and the fact that Dobbs committed this question to the people and the states, why does Todd Blanche think he has the authority to do anything here? How would he do things this.

[Ellie Mystal]

Well, listeners, luckily, Melissa and I speak Republican. And the reason why Blanche thinks that he can do this is because he's probably envisioning one of two possibilities. All right, one of the things is that he alluded to revisiting the FDA and HHS's regulations on mifepristone.

[Melissa Murray]

Right.

[Ellie Mystal]

Something that he said he's in the process of doing. Right. And we know that there are cases and issues and attacks on the abortion pill that have been ongoing since the moment Dobbs dropped. Right. So that's one way to significantly restrict access to abortion. The second is that he said he was also looking into your favorite law, whether medical abortion can be distributed via the mail, which is a reference to the Comstock act, which has still not been repealed despite it being a 19th century law.

[Melissa Murray]

Right. So the Comstock act was passed in 1873. It remains on the books like a zombie law. There have been tons of people who have sort of floated the idea that the Comstock act could be used to prohibit the distribution of medication, abortion through the males, including Justice Thomas. In a number of separate writings, he has made mention of this. This seems to be a real bugaboo with Republicans. They talk about it in Project 2025. All that would be required here is a Department of justice willing to enforce the Comstock act in this way. You don't need a new Congress to pass a ban. You don't need anything. You just need a willing doj. And it seems that Todd Blanch has stepped up. We should also note that this phone call was supposedly off the record, but one of the groups who participated posted a recording to their YouTube website. So some geniuses, like, I love it when Pete Hegseth is handling your comms. Like, that's good stuff.

[Ellie Mystal]

But it's all. It shows their hubris, right? That's what you do when you're winning. That's what you do when you're winning. And you don't think anybody can stop you.

[Melissa Murray]

I mean, well, there we are. Speaking of winning and thinking, no one can stop you, it's time to talk about our favorite U.S. attorney, slash box of Franzia. While I'm apologizing to all of you about my naivete over Todd Blanche's ag prospects, let the record reflect that I was today years old when I realized that Jeanine Pirro might actually be the moral compass of this administration. We called her a box of wine. She said, no bitches. I'm a box of spine. Here's how it went down.

[Ellie Mystal]

I'm sorry. Sorry. Go on, go on.

[Melissa Murray]

Sorry.

[Ellie Mystal]

It's my fault. No bitches.

[Melissa Murray]

No bitches.

[Ellie Mystal]

Oh, God. All right, here's how it went down, listeners. As we discussed on our live NYC show back in June, the Department of the Interior never solicited competitive bids on the reflecting pool resurfacing process. Instead, the job went to a Trump donor and a Mar A Lago neighbor. What could go wrong? Algae pee? What could happen? Apparently, a lot. The pool's new surface immediately began peeling. And rather than admit that maybe this had something to do with the resurfacing and those in charge of it, the President and his pals insisted that the peeling was the work of vandalizing thugs.

[Melissa Murray]

And the U.S. attorney for the District of the District of Columbia, Jeanine Pirro, secured an indictment against former Olympian David Hearn on charges of vandalizing federal property. So basically, Hearn was captured on camera putting his hand in the pool. And I, I like, there it was. And then all of a sudden, he catches a federal case. Hearn, who was represented by, among others, friend of the pod, Norm Eisen, immediately hit back, providing photographic evidence that the pool had been peeling before. And after he stopped and put his hand in the water. I mean, real, you know, detective work going on here.

[Ellie Mystal]

It's just insane, hard hitting forensic evidence. And it seems like that kind of detail was enough to get U.S. attorney Pirro to reconsider whether this was a fight she wanted to have in open court before a federal judge that she would likely have to be before again and again and again. So Pirro, late on a Friday evening when all the hot mess news is released, announced that she would be dropping the charges against Hearn.

[Melissa Murray]

Okay, so to be fair, this is exactly the right outcome. But does Jeanine Pirro, as she is becoming a box of spine, know who she works for? Because her daddy, the president, was not having it at all. Take a listen.

[Ellie Mystal]

Instead of going after the people that did it, the judge went after her and went after her department, and I guess she choked. I was disappointed with Jeanine Pirro. Really disappointed. Pointed with Janine Bureau. She, she folded like an umbrella.

[Melissa Murray]

Such a missed opportunity to use the August 5th folding chair as a metaphor and to reach black audiences. I mean, truly, I mean, folded like an umbrella. Does an umbrella fold? I mean, it just collapses.

[Ellie Mystal]

I think you have to finish the analogy. Fold it like an umbrella in the wind, right? Like. Yeah, yeah. Umbrellas don't fold on their own. There's a force there that has. Whereas a chair can just fall over or if too many white people try to gang up on a boat captain. That's, that's, that's what can happen to chairs,

[Melissa Murray]

right? I'm told legally. Right. So Jeanine Pirro collapsed like an umbrella in the wind. And Kel, surprise, there were reports that the president was considering firing her. Shocking, I know. Ellie, what do you make of this? Is Pirro just over this whole job? She was such a Trump loyalist for so long. Why is she now finding religion? And is she actually going to get fired?

[Ellie Mystal]

Honestly, Melissa, this is the most shocking that's happened this week. When you brought this up to me, I, I was, I, I could not believe that this actually happened.

[Melissa Murray]

Like listeners, I texted Ellie, we're gonna have to talk about the Jeanine Pirro thing. And Ellie wrote back, did she die? I was like what? Like

[Ellie Mystal]

it was easily more likely that she just keeled over than that she actually did the right thing, legally. That is shocking. And so, because I am so surprised, I am forced to pull out my tinfoil hat and really imagine what other things can be going on here. Look, my antenna are raised. The only thing that I can think is that. That she found something real about the reflecting pool. Like, there's a deep, dark secret at the bottom of the reflecting pool. Like, the reflecting pool is the portal to Epstein island or something. Some issue where she knew that if she pushed it in court, things would come out, information would be revealed that, like, can't be revealed. It's disclosure day or something. I can only imagine that there's something way, way more sinister going on that she did not want people to find out because the idea that she just independently decided that this was a dog shit case, that shouldn't be taken. Like, that's not something I see Republicans do. So it's hard for me to accept that. It's hard for me to Occam's razor it. Right. Just accept that. The most obvious answer, dog shit case, don't bring it. It was the answer she arrived to independently and of her own free will.

[Melissa Murray]

So again, maybe I am horribly naive. Maybe I'm Kate Shaw. I don't know. But I genuinely just thought, she's the U.S. attorney. Like, D.C. is a small legal community. She's got to come before these judges all the time. She can't be trying to convict an Olympian of vandalizing the reflecting pool when everybody knows, like, the reflecting pool is hot buttered garbage right now. Like, this resurfacing was hot buttered garbage and everyone knows it. That's what I thought. But again, I also love this hell portal to Epstein island theory could also be the case.

[Ellie Mystal]

Yeah. To put joking aside for a second, at some level, this is all you want from the Department of Justice. This is all you want. This is all we wanted from Thom

[Melissa Murray]

Tillis and John Cornyn. Like, just grow a pair of. Apparently, Jeanine has all of them.

[Ellie Mystal]

Right? Just follow the law. That's all people need. Just do the right legal thing. You're working for Trump. He's gonna win most of the time when he has a case. He's gonna lose most of the time when he doesn't have a case. Just play it straight. That's all anybody's ever asked. And that Jeanine Pirro in this one instance may have done that. That it shouldn't be so shocking, but it is.

[Melissa Murray]

All right. Well, watch the space to see if our newfound box of spine continues to be the U.S. attorney for the District of the District of Columbia. In other news, while the President continues to fight a non existent battle against the vandalism of public sites, his Department of Justice continues the administration's assault on the free press. Last week, in the wake of the Department of Justice withdrawing subpoenas directed to three New York Times journalists, it was revealed that in February, the Justice Department issued a subpoena to a Times freelancer in order to compel that journalist to reveal confidential sources and conversations that underlay a story about a failed top secret mission in North Korea. Now, just to emphasize, it is not unusual for the government to issue subpoenas to elicit information from media outlets, but typically, government investigations of leaks will initially focus on the government agency where the leak likely occurred. After that initial attempt at cleaning your own house, then the government may choose to subpoena the media. And they usually direct the subpoena to the media organization, not to the individual journalists responsible for the story. I'm saying all of this to emphasize that issuing subpoenas directly to journalists and then going to their homes to deliver said subpoenas is a bit aggro, right? It's almost like the goal isn't actually way harsh tyranny. Wow, Dion. Wow, Ellie. It almost feels like the goal isn't actually to get information about leaks or how the media actually came about. This information about the failed North Korea mission. It seems like the goal is scaring the shit out of individual journalists and their families in the hopes that that fear will deter the journalists from accurately reporting what the administration is doing and how clumsily they are doing this. Again, this was about a failed mission in North Korea.

[Ellie Mystal]

It's so weird because in a world where Bari Weiss exists, like the idea that you still have to pressure the one or two journalists left that aren't licking your boots every day, it's just like y' all have already won. Why do you have to go after, you know, the one or two people who are still doing actual journalism? Right. But that's what they're doing. I also want to note that, that while the Times is providing the freelancer with a legal defense, not every news outlet has the considerable resources of the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal or the Jeff Bezos posts or other, you know, other big legacy outlets, smaller news outlets will not be able to defend themselves or their people, which means that they will be forced to be more and more cautious in their coverage of the Administration for fear of catching a lawsuit. And this is a strategy that we know works. I always want to remind people about what happened to Gawker, right? If you look at what happened to Gawker, if you look at how Peter Thiel destroyed Gawker, it wasn't through the big Hulk Hogan lawsuit. Like that was the proximate cause, the ultimate cause was the threat of the lawsuit. The constant threat, we're gonna sue you for this. We're gonna sue you for that. Remember, when Peter Thiel forces Terry Biola, Hulk Hogan, to bring that lawsuit, they don't think they're gonna win. The goal wasn't to win the lawsuit. The goal was to drain Gawker of resources fighting the lawsuit. And that is the real threat to every non legacy organization out there. It's not winning or losing the lawsuit. It's the threat of the lawsuit. I used to work for the blog above the Law, which is really great if you haven't read it and still operating, and it's awesome. But at one point when I was there, my boss says to me, you know, going over one of my stories or whatever, ellie, we can't get sued. Ellie, we just. We can't get sued. I was like, boss, I can't promise you that, right? I can promise you that if we get sued, they won't win, right? I know defamation law, I know libel law. I can promise you that if we get sued, they won't win. But I can't promise you we won't get sued because this is America. You can sue anybody for anything, right? And my boss was like, you don't understand. We can't get sued because we can't afford the insurance liability if we get sued all the time. And that is the chilling effect. That is the. You take that out of your story. You take that out of your. You don't use that quote, right? It restricts what you are able to say. Not because you're in the legal wrong, because if you're even in the legal gray area, you can't afford to do it, right?

[Melissa Murray]

No, it's such a good point. And I mean, I think about this. I think about the EEOC suit against the New York Times. It's not about the Times. Like they don't expect to win against the Times. What they want to do is prevent other smaller newsrooms from doing what the Times is doing. And in that case, it was sort of trying to insert some kind of gender and racial balance in the newsroom, mostly for coverage to ensure that stories that mattered to different constituencies were accurately and adequately covered. But again, it's not about the New York Times. It's just the biggest marker that's meant to be a deterrent to other smaller news organizations to get in line. And, you know, there it is, 100%. All right, folks, it's August. That means school is about to start soon. So. So that pains me. Well, for the kids. Yeah. I gotta go actually teach. Woo. I've been on sabbatical. It's gonna be a hard reentry for me. No, no, for the. I. I feel you on the parents. I feel you're on the parents. Yeah, I'm with you there. But like, I also have to go back to school. And after a sabbatical, like, this is gonna be a hard re entry for Melissa Murray. I'll just say that. But we need to do a quick pivot to talk about a developing story from legal academia. So listeners, you know that this administration hates dei, and I should be clear. They hate the old dei, Diversity, equity and inclusion. They actually love the new dei, which is dudes, ex husbands and imbeciles. Right. In any event, the administration's overwhelming antipathy for the old DEI has prompted calls for the American Bar Association, a professional accreditation organization for the legal profession, to eliminate one of its accreditation requirements for law schools, Standard 206. Standard 206 requires law schools in order to be accredited, to maintain diverse faculties, and to actively demonstrate a commitment to diversity and inclusion for underrepresented groups. To be very clear, standard 206 can basically be boiled down to 4. Don't do Jim Crow. That's it.

[Ellie Mystal]

But alas, the Trump administration, in its zeal to make America great again, or at least white America great, great again, may be seeking a return to 1953. Since the inauguration, the Department of Education, despite being allegedly dismantled, issues guidance that challenge the legality of this modest commitment to fostering inclusivity in law schools. And it has threatened to limit the ABA's role in accrediting law schools. Accreditation is a big deal because most states require attendance to an ABA accredited law school in order to qualify for the bar exam and professional license. And the aba, in an effort to stay out of the administration's crosshairs and maintain its lucrative status as an accreditation organization, suspended standard 206 so it could debate its use going forward. And at its recent annual meeting, there was a pitched debate over whether to maintain standard 206 or to scrap it and keep a low profile with this administration. And Stephen Miller, ABA's House of Delegates ultimately voted to maintain Standard 206, rejecting a proposal that would eliminate it. Amid growing political and legal pressure. The decision preserves the current rule for now, although the debate over its future is not over. The ABA's Independent Accreditation Council still holds the final authority over accreditation standards and plans to reconsider the issue later this month. Basically, the ABA was like, should we be Paul Weiss or not? And decided not, at least for now.

[Melissa Murray]

I mean, it's. This is just bonkers to me. I mean, again, Standard 206 is just like, literally, like, don't be racist. Don't be obviously racist. That's basically what it is, right? I mean, I don't know. I mean, I just go back to the fact in 2006 when I was hired at the University of California at Berkeley, I was only the second black woman ever hired on the fact that faculty. Right. I mean, in 2006, I mean, that's Berkeley. Like, allegedly a liberal bastion. Like, law school faculties are not necessarily hotbeds of diversity law schools.

[Ellie Mystal]

Again, how many black law professors did you have in law school? Three years, two semesters of peach. How many black law professors did you have? I had two.

[Melissa Murray]

I had three and one was a visitor.

[Ellie Mystal]

I had two.

[Melissa Murray]

One per year, basically. One per year? Yeah, one per year.

[Ellie Mystal]

I had to take her. I had to, like, go seek out her seminar. Right. Like, there was only one that was like, naturally served up to me. Right. And while I can understand people's, why should that matter? It matters a great deal. It matters a great deal when you are a student trying to learn about some of the racist ass shit this country has done and you want to ask a question, it matters if you feel like you're going to be able to ask that question in a supportive and safe environment. Right. When you have to ask a white law professor, why is this case so racist? That question hits differently than if you ask it to a black law professor. Even if their answers are going to end up being the same. Right. Even in most cases, their answers are going to end up being the exact same. Right. But it matters a great deal. It matters to me. I've told this story before, but I had Justice Elena Kagan in law school. She was my SIPRO professor, and I hated sipro. And so, you know, I went to office hours basically to complain about how much I hated her class, which was a choice that I regret. But in her office hours, Kagan used to clerk for Thurgood Marshall. And while she was trying to explain to me the importance of civil Procedure. She was using stuff from Thurgood Marshall, which she knew not incorrectly. I was gonna pay a little bit more attention to. I was gonna take a little bit more consideration of than if she was quoting me stuff from Hugo Black. She understood that. And that Kagan obviously not black, but that is the importance of having diversity and inclusion in an educational environment. Different students are gonna respond to different things, and you should be able to have a law school that addresses everybody, not just white folks.

[Melissa Murray]

It's a really good point. I think Standard 206 is not long for this world. I never thought it was especially toothy, but it was something. It was like a guideline, I guess, that a mark in the sand. But that's too much even for these guys. And, you know, it's so weird to watch this assault on DEI while you're watching an administration with a cabinet that literally is inferior to stuff I would see at Ikea. So. All right, Ellie, before we wrap up the news, I have one final note. As you know, I just got back from vacation. I went to London, where I was allowed to talk like this all the time. It was absolutely wonderful. I had the best time. And, you know, I talked about my schedule and all of that, so I loved that part. That was great. The other thing I loved, you know, true highlight of the trip was that I had the opportunity to eat leafy greens and berries with abandon, secure on the knowledge that I would not be gripped by explosive diarrhea because the United Kingdom eng in regular food inspection and regulation protocols. So I love that for them and for me, anyway, as I was headed back to America and the prospect of no longer being able to eat salad, the news coverage was absolutely fixated on an interview that CNN's Dana Bash conducted with Secretary Barry Carcass, slash whale juice, slash raw milk. Robert F. Kennedy, AKA Cheryl Hines's husband, slash maybe Olivia Nuzzi's zoo thing. Allegedly.

[Ellie Mystal]

Maybe, maybe, maybe.

[Melissa Murray]

I don't know.

[Ellie Mystal]

I think we're right past maybe, maybe.

[Melissa Murray]

I don't know. In any event, Dana Bash asked the secretary some questions about the recent measles outbreaks, and his responses were genuinely unhinged. So I'm just saying this because as we're talking about DEI in law schools and whether Standard 206, which is just a model modest instruction to not engage in rank discrimination, is on the table to be eliminated. This man gets to be the Secretary of Health and Human Services. Take a listen. Before becoming HHS secretary, for years, you have been one of the leading voices questioning the efficacy of vaccines do you accept some responsibility for this measles outbreak? Absolutely not. First of all, this is an international outbreak and we're doing better at handling it than any country in the world. Mexico has 15 times the amount of measles per capita that we have. Canada has four times the amount of measles. England has two times the amount of measles. Did I cause those measles outbreaks? You're the most famous. Did I cause 137,000 cameras? You're the most famous vaccine skeptic on the planet, let me tell you. Because actually, Anthony Fauci in his diaries answers the question about why we're having a measles outbreak right now. The reason we're having a measles outbreak because of the COVID lockdowns. All right, thoughts?

[Ellie Mystal]

We're all gonna die. We're all gonna die. And on purpose, right? I always think, can you imagine how people react if RFK Jr. Was a black man, right? Can you imagine how people would react if that was Terry Crews talking about measles? Just like that. Like, people wouldn't stand for Terry Crews. There would be a riot, right? President Hector Elizondo, Mountain Dew Camacho would not be allowed to say that without a mass riot over our collective health. Yet this beer eaten fool, bear eaten fool, I mean, is out here just wilding on all of our health and people just stand for it. It's insane. It's dangerous. I don't understand how people allow this to happen. My kids the other day, day asked me, what if aliens came to Earth? What would be the thing they would be most surprised about, right? And it was, it turned into a very deep philosophical conversation. You know, I mentioned racism would like, be like, you're all earthlings. How could you be right? But one of the things that we were able to kind of hit upon was our lack of care for ourselves in our environment, right? Like, I would imagine that an advanced intelligent race would look at our self destruction, you know, as one of the most insane things out there, right? Like I, and I tell my kids, like, if you think about it, like, even gorillas practice good hygiene, right? Like they, they, they, they take care of each other's health, right? And we don't, we don't care for our own health when we let it become politicized. And that is insane. And I think it would be insane to any intelligent species besides ours.

[Melissa Murray]

I mean, I think the aliens would want to know, like, why we decided to entrust our health to this man who has admitted to snorting Cocaine off a toilet seat.

[Ellie Mystal]

Yes, they would want to know that, and they would want to know what we did to all the rhinos. Right.

[Melissa Murray]

All right.

[Ellie Mystal]

No, it's.

[Melissa Murray]

It's too.

[Ellie Mystal]

It's a huge problem, but again, like, it's beyond a health problem now. It is a straight up political problem. It is what people are voting for when they show up to the polls in November. They're voting for this guy, and they understand that, and they do it anyway.

[Melissa Murray]

Obviously, there are other people to blame for this. I think we should also blame the Supreme Court. I mean, the court's bent on deregulation, which has been led largely by Justice Neil Gorsuch, I think is also to blame for or why there are irregular inspections of food safety at these large industrial farms. We could also put the blame, I guess, on DOJ antitrust for allowing the consolidation of these various farms, which, again, makes it easier for these broad outbreaks to happen because they're all coming from, like, a large source. This is what happens when you deregulate. This is what happens when certain providers have so much market power that they can basically dictate the terms of regulation. And I mean, there's just.

[Leah Litman]

It's.

[Melissa Murray]

It's just so unbelievable. Like, you cannot literally eat berries, right? I mean, can I just. I, like, like, it was so honestly relaxing to be in the UK and not worry about this. Like, to just like, I was literally on a cabbage binge just eating every leafy grain I could. I was snorting iceberg lettuce. Like, I. I was just, like, just with abandon.

[Ellie Mystal]

Like, you went full Peter Rabbit.

[Melissa Murray]

I sure did. I sure did. Please, another. Have another head of lettuce, please. It was just like, like, and then I came home and, like, and now I'm, like, roasting all my vegetables.

[Leah Litman]

Like, it's just.

[Melissa Murray]

It's like, I cannot believe we're in this hellscape.

[Ellie Mystal]

Anyway, my kids are happy because we're

[Melissa Murray]

like, no, no vegetables. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, the kids are like, I vote for RFK.

[Ellie Mystal]

RFK's the greatest.

[Melissa Murray]

Good stuff. I love deregulation. Like, my son is, like, best decision ever. Loper bright. So, listeners, when Ellie and I recorded this episode on Thursday morning, we obviously recognize that the Trump administration is going to Trump administration, and we would probably be back in the studio to record an update. And lo and behold, on Thursday after afternoon, President Trump signed two executive orders targeting birthright citizenship. Again, this is just weeks after the Supreme Court concluded that an executive order could not be used to unilaterally rescind the 14th Amendment's grant of birthright citizenship. The two new executive orders take a very narrow tack. They focus on what the administration has termed, quote, unquote, birth tourism. The first order excludes from birthright citizenship children born in the United States to members of foreign terrorist groups or, among others, employees working for foreign governments. That might include consular employees, ambassadors, or even low level people working in embassies and consulates. With respect to that latter group, the children of individuals who are employed by foreign governments, foreign ministers, the children of ambassadors and things like that, technically, and I, I think historically they have already been excluded from birthright citizenship under the terms of Section 1 of the 14th Amendment, because Section 1 of the 14th Amendment specifically excludes from birthright citizenships those who are not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. And historically, that has always meant the children of ambassadors or high level consular employees. This seems to open the door even more broadly to exclude the children of individuals who work in the consulate, but are not those high ranking officials who are clearly subject to the jurisdiction of some other foreign entity.

[Leah Litman]

Yeah, so I did a shorter YouTube segment on this that will be out and then also a conversation with Rachel Cohen on this. But I wanted to just kind of highlight what you were saying in that. What the administration seems to be trying to do is take a well recognized but extremely narrow exception to birthright citizenship and just blow a hole through it and expand it beyond recognition. Because, of course, birthright citizenship did not apply to children of foreign ambassadors. And now the administration is saying, well, it doesn't apply to children of anyone who works, works at an embassy or is an employee of a foreign government. And, you know, taken seriously, would this mean that the children of someone who, I don't know, cleans the bathrooms at a foreign embassy or the United nations is not a birthright citizen? Like, that's the question. And, you know, the exception for people born to parents who are, you know, members of a foreign terrorist organization, that's obviously extrapolating from the exception for people born to, you know, occupying or invading armies. And the person who invited the administration to do this, say his name. It's Brett Kavanaugh who wrote that separate opinion in Trump versus Barbara, saying, well, of course, the Constitution's principles have to be applied to new circumstances. And that means not just the rules themselves, but also their exceptions. And that is what the administration, Administration is doing. So the second executive order you mentioned, there are two. The second one is entitled Ending Birth Tourism. It excludes from birthright citizenship the children of birth tourists that is individuals who visit the United States while pregnant for the purpose of delivering the child on U.S. soil so that the child will be eligible for U.S. citizenship. The first order also excluded children of non citizens who enter into a surrogacy agreement. Like if green card holders use a surrogate, is there a child potentially not a citizen? Like it's just truly deranged, unhinged stuff. Which means it came from the mouth of, I don't know, Senior White House advisor, Deputy White House Chief of Staff Stephen Miller, who was present at the signing of these executive orders and had this to say upon their announcement.

[Ellie Mystal]

The President is using his authority as Commander in Chief to sign first an executive order. Using the new ruling the court Supreme Supreme Court issued to expand the definitions of people who are ineligible for birthright citizenship. That includes, for example, alien enemies of the United States, members of foreign terrorist organizations, and large categories of people who lobby and act on behalf of foreign governments. And so with taking this action, it ensures that large numbers of people who wrongly would be getting birthright citizenship will no longer be eligible for those benefits.

[Melissa Murray]

So just for some context listeners about the so called birth tourism, around 3.6 million babies are born in the United States each year. According to the Centers for Disease Control and prevention. In 2024, fewer than 10,000 babies who were born in the United States were born to foreign residents. So obviously this is a problem that I guess is important enough for this administration, but it doesn't seem like it's the kind of massive influx of people that they're making it out to be. Certainly doesn't seem like it's as important as other challenges facing us right now, like the Iran war, our water supply, the ability to eat diarrhea, lettuce abandoned, I was gonna say. And you know, the Strait of Hormuz would like a word. So there's that many things.

[Leah Litman]

You know, speaking of the kind of additional developments, you know, the Trump administration and the federal courts were definitely going to Trump admin in federal courts because also since you recorded, the DC Circuit came out with their decision in which they said buy a 2 to 1 vote because this is the federal courts. That of course the President destroying the White House, AKA the People's House in order to build a ballroom without congressional authorization is illegal. The majority opinion said, quote, we are aware of no immigration instance in American history in which a president unilaterally and using privately collected funds demolished substantial portions of the White House that Congress authorized to be built and American taxpayers paid for. Until now, end quote, decision two to one, of course, a Trump appointee to the D.C. circuit, one Naomi Rao, dissented. Since auditions for a Supreme Court seat are still ongoing, even though there is not as of yet a vacancy. The D.C. circuit stayed their opinion for several days to allow the administration to run off to daddy Supreme Court to ask for a stay on the shadow docket. The president said on Truth Social they would be doing so. We will see whether that materializes. One other development in the federal courts. A Trump appointed judge declined to dismiss the indictment against the Southern Poverty Law center, which had argued the indictment was brought against them vindictively and selectively. The Trump appointed judge even denied the request for discovery. That is the ability to ask questions, collect evidence and look into whether this indictment was sought, you know, selectively and vindictively. So that is an unfortunate development and we will see how that case plays out.

[Melissa Murray]

That case, of course, is related to the Florida attorney general's demand for an impeachment inquiry into 11th Circuit Judge Nancy abut voodoo, which Ellie and I talked about earlier in this episode. Right. So that is a full rundown of the news. Thank you, Leah, for joining us. We are going to take a break and when we come back, Ellie and I will share our favorite things. This episode of strict scrutiny is brought to you by Alloy Health. There's something nobody tells you. Your skin starts to change in your 40s. And it's not just aging, it's hormones, specifically estrogen loss. Estrogen naturally helps maintain collagen, supports elasticity and keeps your skin hydrated. And as estrogen declines, skin gets thinner, drier and more crepey. That means your expensive cleanser, retinol moisturizer. None of them are designed to solve this hormonal problem. I wish someone had told me that when I turned 40, everything would change, that my skin routine would need to change. And at the time I turned 40, 40 solutions really didn't exist for those kinds of hormonal changes. But now they do. And the answer is M4 skincare from Alloy. The first head to toe line of Estriol powered skin care. Estriol is a safe, gentle and bioidentical form of estrogen, clinically proven to rebuild collagen, restore elasticity and visibly reduce wrinkles. 88% of users of Aloe's M4 face cream saw improved elasticity. And 95% of people who use the M4 body treatment treatment felt smoother skin. The full line targets your face, eyes, body. It's estrogen powered skin care. Everywhere you notice changes. And Alloy is prescription strength without the appointments, the pharmacy trips or the insurance hassle. It is HSA and FSA eligible and it's delivered free to your door. Here's how it works. You complete your intake form, which is a quick online form, and you'll be matched with a menopause specialized physician who reviews your intake and prescribed describes what's right for your skin. Plus you get $0 unlimited messaging with your doctor. Once approved, your Alloy prescription ships straight to you. No pharmacy, no hassle. So try M4 Skincare from Aloe and see results in as little as eight weeks. Head over to myalloid.com and use code STRICT to get 20 off your first order. Your menopause specialized doctor will tailor your skin care to your needs. Plus you get $0 unlimited messaging with your doctor. Just head over to my a l l o y.com and use code STRICT to get $20 off your first order. Grainger knows when you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners. Lights about to fail, Filters ready to clog H H Vac on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Grainger for quality products, easy reordering and 24.

[Leah Litman]

7 support.

[Melissa Murray]

Call 1-800-GRAINGER click grainger.com or just stop by grainger for the ones who get it done. When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slow. With Grainger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place. So nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. Call 1-800-GRAINGER clickranger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done. Ellie, thank you so much for joining us to run down the legal news and for helping me fill out the empty void created by the absence of Leah and Kate. I think you did admirably here. We always close out our show by offering our listeners something uplifting. Our favorite things, things that we look forward to, things that we experience that brought us joy that might bring them joy. So I'm going to invite you to share with us what your favorite things were from this point week.

[Ellie Mystal]

Oh, you shouldn't have asked me. All right, so the Supreme Court granted cert in a case called Jopy vs Alaska and I love this case. Jopi is An Alaskan bush pilot, meaning that he owns and operates his own private air service, has his own plane flying people to weird ass places across. Let's not forget our nation's largest state allowed Alaska. Right now, some of the counties in Alaska are dry counties, which means you cannot sell or transport alcohol to them. Something, something puritans, something. I don't really understand it. Right? Long story short, one of his passengers, one of Jopy's passengers, brought a six pack, like literally just a six pack of beer to one of these dry counties, right on Jopy's plane. A trial court ruled that Jopy could have or should have noticed the six pack and that therefore he was in violation of the county's dry laws. So that Jopi could be fined.

[Melissa Murray]

Right.

[Ellie Mystal]

So the jury.

[Melissa Murray]

Wait, wait. Can I ask a question?

[Ellie Mystal]

Yeah.

[Melissa Murray]

Did the passengers like walk on with a six pack or was it in his carry on?

[Ellie Mystal]

Apparently. And don't ask me why I know this, because I really went deep on this case. So apparently it was like in the passenger's carry on bag, but the carry on bag wasn't fully zipped. So you could have seen as you're getting onto the plane if you looked at this bag, that there was like a six pack kind of sticking out of the carry on package. And look, unlike the Supreme Court, I'm gonna take the trial court's rule as fact, right? I'm gonna do what you're supposed to do and say there was a whole trial here and a jury said he should have known that there was a six pack on his plane. Okay? So you get a fine for that, right? So the fine is $1,500 and. Right.

[Melissa Murray]

It's a perfectly reasonable fine. It's a deterrent. Now you're checking all the bags before you load your plan, right?

[Ellie Mystal]

If you want to hold people accountable, $1,500. All right? But part of the violation here includes taking away the man's plane.

[Melissa Murray]

All right? So the punishment that the district court imposed was to give him a fifteen hundred dollar fine and to take away his plane.

[Ellie Mystal]

And to take away his plane.

[Melissa Murray]

So this is obviously an eighth amendment challenge. And so.

[Ellie Mystal]

Yes, exactly. Jo, you're exactly right. Boom. Joby appealed the ruling against him on an 8th amendment cruel and unusual punishment challenge. And the Supreme Court actually granted cert on this case. So sometime next year we're going to hear this case. And man, I hope he wins because like in my mind, Jopi is now like Han Solo, right? He, he is just out here, he is just doing his job. He is smuggling Raptors and six packs and now you're gonna take away his Millennium Falcon on some bullshit. Right, but the other thing that's really interesting here is that Neil Gorsuch is an 8th amendment hardass. He doesn't think the 8th amendment applies to. Like he will. He will string you up by your genitals under the 8th amendment. He doesn't care. So how is a person like Gorsuch, who also loves the west and loves freedom and loves liberty, like, how is Neil Gorsuch gonna deal with a freedom loving American having his plane taken away by the government over a six pack of beer versus his antipathy towards the 8th amendment? I could not be more excited for this goddamn case.

[Melissa Murray]

Wait, wait. So are you optimistic about Jopi's chances? Cause I'm not.

[Ellie Mystal]

No. No, I'm not, not optimistic. I'm not optimistic given, given the makeup of this court. But, but I, I, I want to see him do. I want to see him do it. I want to see these conservative, Republican, libertarian ass people take away this man's plan because. Because they want to open the ability to kill people. I want them to have to, to go through that thought process. I want to kill people so badly. I'm going to take away this man's plane. I want to see him do it. I cannot. Wait.

[Melissa Murray]

So if Jopi is good news, by

[Ellie Mystal]

the way, that was my happy place.

[Melissa Murray]

Okay, your happy place is a dyspeptic dystopia. But I do love that in your happy place, if Jopi is Han Solo, the court is Jabba the Hunter.

[Ellie Mystal]

Yep. Yep. That's exactly what's happening.

[Melissa Murray]

That seems right. That seems right. So my favorite things this week are one, being able to eat leafy greens with abandon. To, to just, like, have a lettuce binge. That was a lettuce bender. It was amazing. Thank you to the good people of the UK for providing me with that experience. I also love, love, love meeting stricties in the wild. So I ran into Jeff Canyon on the New York City subway, and he is not only a fan of public transportation, he is of the podcast as well. So great to meet you, Jeff. And Leah texted me to let me know that she ran into Nathan on a Delta flight. And she reports that Nathan loves the pod and is absolutely delightful. And obviously the two things are related. So, Nathan, glad you and Leah had that meet cute. My other fave from this week is I just finished Robin Lee's Crash Into Me. This is a book and it's, it was awesome. I literally, again, kind of put my life on hold so I could finish it. It is sexy, propulsive. Just a great, great read. Gen X, you will remember Robin Lee because she is a former actress. She was in the 1990s movie have Plenty. Did you see this, Ellie? Have Plenty. Do you remember that movie?

[Ellie Mystal]

Probably. I don't remember it, but I probably saw it.

[Melissa Murray]

It's kind of a black Gen X favorite. That's a deep cut for you. She's also the author of the Idea of youf, which was made into, I think, a Netflix movie starring Anne Hathaway and the very delectable Nicholas Galzatine. Just a great author and she's a Columbia Law grad and this book was great. So highly, highly recommend. Robin Lee's Crash Into Me. Also, the title comes from a Dave Matthews song and I do like the dmv.

[Ellie Mystal]

Nice.

[Melissa Murray]

Uva always. All right, so that's all we have for you today. Thanks so much to our guest host, Ellie Mostall. Always a pleasure to have you on the pod. I think you're the first guest host who's ever vaped continuously during the podcast, so thank you. I just wanna remind our listeners again to be on the lookout in your feed for the first of our summer bonus episodes. This one about Know youw Rights. It's going to be dropping on Thursday. Take a listen. It'll be really important, really informative, and that's all we have. We'll see you time next next week.

[Ellie Mystal]

Peace.

[Melissa Murray]

Strict Scrutiny is a crooked media production. Our show is produced by Melody Rowell and Michael Goldsmith. Our music is by Eddie Cooper. Our team includes Matt de Groat, Ben Hethcote, Johanna Case, Kenny Moffett, Adam Lippert and Eric Schutt. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America. East

[Ellie Mystal]

Foreign.

[Melissa Murray]

Hey, so listen, whether you're in the States, across the pond or somewhere on the other side of the world, we love that you tune into crooked for US News. But did you know we also have a UK news show? Yes, that's right. It's called Pod Save the uk.

[Ellie Mystal]

Pod Save the UK is a.

[Melissa Murray]

No unabashedly progressive conversation about politics. Politics focused on the issues that matter

[Ellie Mystal]

most to the people of Britain. With all the changes in our government,

[Melissa Murray]

including the fun revolving door of prime

[Ellie Mystal]

ministers we have here, there's always lots

[Melissa Murray]

to talk about and there's lots of fabulous guests to talk to, journalists, politicians, experts, comedians and activists. Yeah, we've had great comedians on as well, like Rosie Jones, Stuart Lee, Aisling Bee.

[Ellie Mystal]

We've also had Tommy Vitor on who may be our boss.

[Melissa Murray]

We're not quite clear on who our boss is.

[Ellie Mystal]

I thought it might be Tommy Vitor. I thought it might be Jon Favreau. I don't know if it's Jon Lovick.

[Melissa Murray]

It's hard to say.

[Ellie Mystal]

It's not clear to us who our bosses are.

[Melissa Murray]

Some of our listeners call us irreverent but not stupid. I object to that.

[Ellie Mystal]

I'm deeply stupid.

[Melissa Murray]

It doesn't sound too bad. So look, come check us out. Come join us podsave the UK every Thursday wherever you get your podcasts when you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns. With Grainger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place, so nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done. Sleep Number's new collections are designed to

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