War Crimes, Christian Nationalism, and the 25th Amendment

Summary

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Strict Scrutiny – April 13, 2026

Episode: War Crimes, Christian Nationalism, and the 25th Amendment

Overview

This episode of Strict Scrutiny dives into an extraordinarily turbulent week for American legal and political news, dissecting how the continued Trump-Vance administration is provoking deep concerns around war crimes, Christian nationalism, and institutional threats to democracy. Host Leah Litman is joined by guest co-hosts Katie Fang and Emily Amick to unpack:

• The administration’s open threats of war crimes on social media
• The fusion of religion and state, particularly in the military
• A shocking Supreme Court inaction on a major civil rights case
• Erosion of the judiciary's reputation
• The role of the 25th Amendment in the current discourse
• The ongoing activism and organizing that offers hope for the future

Litman, Fang, and Amick bring their usual incisive legal analysis, irreverent humor, and focus on what all this means for everyday Americans.

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I. Week in Legal WTF: Threats of War Crimes and Genocide

Timestamps:

• [04:27] Leah: “One of the more unsettling...weeks I can remember...president threatening war crimes, genocide, maybe using a nuclear weapon...it just felt surreal.”

Key Points:

• Trump posted threats of unprecedented military action against Iran on Truth Social (“Tuesday will be power plant day and bridge day all wrapped up in one in Iran...Open the fucking strait...Praise be to Allah. President Donald J. Trump.”) ([06:25])
• The threats occurred on Easter and Passover, adding a layer of religious provocation.
• Fang and Litman slam media framing that normalizes (“sanewashes”) Trump’s statements as just “escalation” or “hardline” rather than explicit threats and admissions of war crimes.
• Fang: “An admission by a party opponent is the most damning way to impeach someone. Right? ...You don’t even have to wonder if there’s a mistaken attribution. This was not a...Even if the idea sprung from the brain of Stephen Miller...at the end of the day, the way it was presented and rolled out on Truth Social was epically, epically Trump.” ([09:15])
• Litman: “For war crimes, you have to establish the actor’s intent and they’re usually not just posting it in writing...” ([09:05])

Memorable Quotes:

• Fang: “Are we gonna have a War Crime Wednesday? ...We were so close to the edge of that precipice. We didn’t have to go over it...I firmly believe in every way we have now crossed this line that we cannot go back to as a society and as a world.” ([05:00])

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II. The Cult of Personality in the Executive Branch

Timestamps:

• [11:53] Fang (on Deputy AG Todd Blanche): “I have never heard any iteration of an attorney general...say I love you, sir.”

Key Points:

• Todd Blanche, acting/interim AG, gives an obsequious, sycophantic press conference expressing unreserved loyalty to Trump:

  Todd Blanche: “I love you, sir. ...If President Trump chooses to keep me as acting, that’s an honor. ...If he chooses to nominate me, that's an honor. ...If he chooses to nominate somebody else...thank you very much. I love you, sir.” ([12:04])

• Blanche’s statements reveal a dangerous conflation of loyalty to an individual with the duties of a public legal officer meant to serve the Constitution.
• Blanche’s view on ethics:

  Blanche: “If you were a prosecutor and you were trying to prosecute your boss, you have ethical duties...that I think prevent you from continuing to work in that environment.” ([13:49])

• Fang is appalled, highlighting the abandonment of “rule of law and oath to the Constitution.”

Memorable Reaction:

• Fang: “He keeps on going and saying, because the only agenda here is the president’s agenda. And I was like, bro, whatever happened to the rule of law and your oath to the Constitution?” ([14:05])

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III. Christian Nationalism and the Military

Timestamps:

• [19:29] Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth (now dubbed “Kegsbreath” by Fang)

Key Points:

• Litman and Fang analyze Hegseth’s theologically-tinged speeches at the Pentagon:

  Hegseth: “Our troops...deserve the credit for this day, but God deserves all the glory. ... Sorties, refuelings, strikes...under the protection of divine providence. ... miraculous protection.” ([19:29]) Hegseth: (Christian prayer for soldiers): “Grant this task force clear and righteous targets for violence. ... overwhelming violence of action against those who deserve no mercy.” ([20:20])

• They call out the collapse of the separation of church and state, weaponization of religious rhetoric to justify state violence, and the alarming shift toward a “Christian nationalist force.”
• The Trump administration uses selective historical references (e.g., Avignon Papacy) to justify their intimidation of the Vatican for not supporting their foreign aggression.
• Fang: “The Nefarious and very insidious part about all of this is the allowance, if not the overt pushing, of this violation of church and state...It ends up working towards their advantage, toward the narrative of this is a holy war.” ([22:39])
• The hosts note the impact of Christian nationalism on military purges and the broader authoritarian project.

Notable Quote:

• Litman: “It all seems in service of making the federal government, including the military, a Christian nationalist force...” ([24:45])

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IV. The Supreme Court: Abdication and Erosion

Timestamps:

• [33:16] Discussion of the Supreme Court’s refusal to take Skinner v. Louisiana

Key Points:

• The Court refused (cert. denied) to take up a case involving abundant Brady violations (suppression of exculpatory evidence) in a Louisiana capital conviction where virtually identical egregious prosecutorial misconduct led to the reversal of a co-defendant’s conviction a decade earlier.
• Fang: “Open the dictionary to Brady and see Skinner vs. Louisiana. ...You don’t even have to be a lawyer to appreciate it...It just, in your gut, doesn’t sit right.” ([35:30])
• Litman: “The Supreme Court is bad not just because of the things they do, but because of the things they decline to do as well...”
• The hosts connect these outcomes to the stacked federal and Supreme Courts—a consequence of elections and the pipeline of ideologically rigid and often underqualified conservative federal judges.
• Fang: “How do you have them on all fours be the exact same facts, exact same issues, and you screw over Skinner in that way? Well, you know, there you go.” ([38:06])

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V. The Judiciary—Packing, Departures, and Ideological Battles

Timestamps:

• [41:59] Judge Erickson’s early retirement from the 8th Circuit
• [43:50] 9th Circuit panel strikes down CA dialysis law

Key Points:

• Judge Erickson (Trump appointee) takes senior status after less than 8 years, providing Trump another judicial seat to fill—part of a trend of right-wing judges strategically retiring to ensure hyper-conservative successors.
• The problem is compounded by Republicans’ disregard for ABA qualification ratings; Trump’s appointees have been overwhelmingly white and male.
• A 9th Circuit panel, of which one member (Van Dyke) was rated unqualified by the ABA, struck down a California consumer protection law under a warped use of the First Amendment—a sign of how the conservative legal movement is weaponizing “free speech” for corporate interests.
• Litman: “I feel like we need a First Amendment for Freaks segment because this is what they’re doing.” ([44:49])

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VI. Hope and Organizing

Timestamps:

• [47:23] Katie’s “favorite thing” segment

Key Points:

• Fang draws inspiration from dog Lucky and from recent gatherings of pro-democracy advocates: “It reminds me that there are these pockets that are growing of sane, very, very motivated people that understand what’s at stake.”
• Emphasis on the increased public engagement with the Supreme Court since Trump’s terms, making people more aware of the long-term importance of judicial nominations.

Memorable Moment:

• “We should aspire to be as amazing people as our dogs think we are...We are here to sustain each other in all the right ways.” ([45:51])

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VII. The 25th Amendment Debate

Timestamps:

• [54:27] Emily Amick joins to explain the 25th Amendment discourse

Key Points:

• The 25th Amendment establishes a procedure for the VP and cabinet to remove an unfit president—but in the current era, this is functionally impossible as the cabinet is packed with loyalists.
• Amick and Litman argue the value of the current 25th Amendment discourse is not about its literal invocation, but as a way for the public to acknowledge and discuss presidential unfitness.
• Amick: “Talking about the 25th Amendment isn’t really about invoking the 25th Amendment, it’s about talking about it.” ([56:50])
• Discussion of the narrative power and algorithmic appeal of “the 25th Amendment” in shaping public perception.
• Litman: “Talking about the 25th Amendment is, in some ways, an opening to discussing all of the ways that Donald Trump just makes things and our lives worse by being a mad king.” ([59:47])
• Comparison to impeachment—likewise, no longer practically possible but both serve as rhetorical tools to challenge normalization of Trump’s conduct.

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VIII. Wisconsin Supreme Court & Organizing Wins

Timestamps:

• [65:17] Emily and Leah celebrate the ouster of reactionary Wisconsin Supreme Court justice Rebecca Bradley

Key Points:

• The enormous swing of the Wisconsin Supreme Court from near-endorsement of 2020 election subversions to a 5–2 progressive majority is highlighted as a case study in grassroots organizing and the importance of elections even in difficult times.
• Emily: “Every time I hear the nihilism of the Democratic base...I’m like, false, incorrect. Look at what we’ve been doing with the Wisconsin Supreme Court. Elon has...invested millions...and we’re still winning.” ([65:17])

Memorable Game:

• “Goodbye to Becky with the bad takes”—a lighthearted quiz roasting Rebecca Bradley’s odious record ([67:21-70:30]):
  • AIDS vs cancer column? True.
  • Calling progressives “handmaidens”? True.
  • Calling DEIA “identity politics”? True.
  • Editing her own Wikipedia page? True.
  • Citing Ben Shapiro and “race crazy” books in opinions? True.

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IX. Closing Thoughts: Joy, Organizing, and Resilience

Final Segments:

• Litman, Amick, and Fang share sources of optimism—books, recipes, friendships from activism, and the expanding community of people fighting for democracy.
• Amick: “We don’t have to stay in retrograde. ...It is very, very possible...We need everyone to do something.” ([72:19])
• Amick and Litman plug “Democracy in Retrograde,” Steve Vladek’s writing, Levain Bakery’s carrot cake cookie, Smitten Kitchen’s Zucchini Butter Spaghetti, and the pleasure of building community both online and IRL.

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Notable Quotes (w/Timestamps)

• Fang: “Posturing by the threat of the commission of a war crime is not posturing. It’s...a war crime.” ([09:15])
• Litman: “The Overton Window [has been] moved so far into another country...you would need a passport to live in it.” ([09:05])
• Hegseth: “God...you who stirred the nations from the north against Babylon of old...Give them wisdom...overwhelming violence of action against those who deserve no mercy.” ([20:20])
• Fang: “They create a stacked federal bench...and you create almost like a nuclear arms race when it comes to presidential administrations.” ([37:30])
• Amick: “Talking about the 25th Amendment isn’t really about invoking the 25th Amendment, it’s about talking about it.” ([56:50])
• Litman: “The First Amendment has now been weaponized and bastardized...” ([45:10])

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Key Timestamps for Reference

• 04:27 – Discussion of week’s threats of war crimes
• 11:53 – Blanche’s “I love you, sir” quote
• 19:29 – Hegseth’s religious militarism speech
• 24:45 – How Christian nationalism pervades Trump administration
• 35:16 – Supreme Court declines Skinner v. Louisiana
• 41:59 – Judge Erickson stepping down
• 44:49 – 9th Circuit’s First Amendment ruling
• 54:27 – 25th Amendment segment with Amick
• 65:17 – Wisconsin Supreme Court segment
• 67:21 – “Goodbye Becky Bradley” game

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Tone and Style

• Mix of sharp legal analysis, exasperated humor, pop culture references, and personal reflections. The hosts do not pull punches, infusing righteous outrage and wit as they parse the legal news of the week.
• Quotable zingers abound, but earnestness pervades when the stakes for democracy, constitutional order, and genuine hope for change are at issue.

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Transcript

[Katie Fang]

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[Leah Lippman]

Mr. Chief justice, please report. It's an old joke, but when I argue a man argues against two beautiful ladies like this, they're going to have the last word. She spoke not elegantly, but with unmistakable clarity.

[Emily Amick]

She said, I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.

[Leah Lippman]

Hello and welcome back to Strict Scrutiny, your podcast about the Supreme Court and the legal culture that surrounds it. I'm your lone regular host for today, Leah Littman, here to announce that I too have never been friends with Jeffrey Epstein. Indeed, I have also never had a relationship with Epstein or his Accomplice Maxwell. Of course, my I'm not friends with Epstein or Maxwell shirt has a lot of people asking questions answered by my I'm not buddy buddy with sex traffickers shirt. Anyways, the Supreme Court did not hear oral arguments last week, which means this is just going to be a legal, legal news episode. And with Kate and Melissa out, I am delighted to be joined by two repeat guests to help me break down WTF happened last week. First, Katie Feng is going to talk with me about this week in the unitary executive, which as far as I can tell, meant a lot of war crimes and Christian nationalism. We'll also talk about a bad decision out of the Supreme Court you probably haven't heard about and some goings on in the courts of appeal. Then Emily Amick will explain what all the 25th amendment talk is about and help me say goodbye to Justice Rebecca Bradley, AKA Becky with the bad takes of the Wisconsin Supreme Court. But first up, joining me in the co host chair is the wonderful Katie Fang, independent journalist and trial lawyer who hosts a YouTube channel, the Katie Fang Channel, that is part of the Midas Touch network where she delivers must hear daily news analysis. Welcome back to the show, Katie.

[Katie Fang]

Oh, I'm happy to be back. I do think this would have been a good week for some Taylor news, but other than her planning her wedding right now, we don't have any updates. But I feel like we gotta save the date. I mean, are we, are we on like an NDA? Like we're not supposed to talk about it, right? Like, why are you.

[Leah Lippman]

That's what it is.

[Katie Fang]

Why are you outing us like this? I mean, hello. But I kind of feel like they would have taken the edge off of all, you know, the Christian nationalism genocide this week. But yes, I am thrilled to be here no matter what.

[Leah Lippman]

I should also say you can find Katie on substack, Katie Fang over at that platform as well. Okay, Katie, as you were kind of suggesting, this last week felt, at least to me, like one of the more unsettling, disorienting, unreal weeks that I can remember in a year and a half that has always felt that way. Like with the president threatening war crimes, genocide, maybe using a nuclear weapon, and giving us a weird deadline timeline for him making a decision about whether to unleash all of this. It just felt surreal. How did you experience this past week?

[Katie Fang]

We didn't even have to make it through an entire week to be able to have that experience. Right. I felt like, you know, Tuesday. Well, we started it on Sunday. Did we not Easter Sunday with expletive laden posts threatening the continuation, I will say, of war crimes. Because that is my opinion. I feel like the war crimes, it's not like they haven't started, they've been kind of ongoing and then it kind of merged and kind of like evolved into will we have an act of genocide by either by way of a nuclear warhead or maybe some huge ordinance. Right. On Tuesday. But that became Taco Tuesday, which then made me wonder, are we gonna have a war crime Wednesday? I mean, I don't say this tongue in cheek. You do. You kind of see it tongue in cheek. And I'm not trying to make light of it, but my biggest. And it's so funny, I just had a conversation with our good friend Ellie Mistahl about it not even an hour ago. I was like, were we gonna wake up Wednesday morning and think like everything is back as business as usual, even in the legal perspective? Right. Because I felt like we, we, we were so close to the edge of that precipice. We didn't have to go over it. Leah, for us to have really crossed the Rubicon. I firmly believe in every way we have now crossed this line that we cannot go back to as a society and as a world. And now we sit in. In this midst of a ceasefire, non ceasefire, and. And wonder what's next.

[Leah Lippman]

Sadly, yeah. And so since you mentioned the posts, I just want to kind of recite them for our listeners who might have missed them because only the actual words can convey the nuttiness. So the Sunday one, I think is what, read quote. Tuesday will be power plant day and bridge day all wrapped up in one in Iran. There will be nothing like it. Multiple exclamation points. Open the fucking straight, you crazy bastards, or you'll be living in hell. Just watch. Praise be to Allah. President Donald J. Trump. That was Easter Sunday. Easter Sunday.

[Katie Fang]

I just, I'm like, you know, sometimes when you have to laugh, uncomfortable, like I'm laughing uncomfortably because I was in church, right? Like I was in church. And you don't even have to be a Christian on Easter Sunday to be appalled by what it is. But it's just. Even the taunting at the end with the Praise be Allah stuff just really was so beyond the pale, right?

[Leah Lippman]

Oh, yeah, completely. And then it was also Passover when he just kind of unleashed this as well. But then the Tuesday morning one, the truth began. A whole civilization will die tonight, never to be brought back again. And then it continued with an all caps. Who knows? Maybe something revolutionarily wonderful can Happen. Like teasing that maybe it will, maybe it won't. So, Katie, you are, as I mentioned in the intro, a wonderful independent journalist. Like, how do you think about covering stuff like this? Because at least in my observations, it felt like there was a lot of sane washing of this in the media and coverage. Like people talking about Trump escalation or adopting hardline stances when this is just straight up violations of the laws of war, even the threats.

[Katie Fang]

Yes and yes. I think this was the quintessential moment, and it should have been appreciated as an inflection point for all people that participate in media, whether it's legacy, mainstream, or independent, to have that gut check on how you cover Trump and this regime. And it doesn't have to be a partisan coverage, it has to be the truth. Which is why I'm grateful that you took the time to walk through those truth social posts. Because as we know, in the law, an admission by a party opponent is the most damning way to impeach someone. Right? I mean, and I would love impeachment in every sense of the legal idea of impeachment, conviction, removal of a president. But, you know, to do so using someone's own words against them is oftentimes the most powerful way in front of a judge or jury to be able to show that person's intent, if that is that big.

[Leah Lippman]

He admitted energy like Stringer Bell. Are you truthing a motherfucking criminal conspiracy? Because, as you know, like for war crimes, you have to establish the actor's intent and they're usually not just posting

[Katie Fang]

it in writing, so then you don't even have to question it. Was it a he said, she said moment? Oh, no, it was in writing. And, you know, you don't even have to wonder if there's a mistaken attribution. This was not a. Even if the idea sprung from the brain of Stephen Miller in this very perverse Greek mythological way, you didn't have to wonder because at the end of the day, the way it was presented and rolled out on Truth Social was epically, epically Trump. Right. And all of the weird caps and syntax and lack of punctuation and run out shit. But it was the criminal intent that was so brazenly obvious. And, you know, there was nothing strategic about it either. Right. I mean, some people are like, oh, he's just posturing. Yeah, posturing by the threat of the commission of a war crime is not posturing. It's the threat of a commission of crime. It's a war crime. So, you know, knowing all of that it really gave a lot of us, including myself, a very sobering cause for pause, which is do you just shrug your shoulders and enjoy the breeze from the Overton Window being moved so far into another country at this point that you would need a passport to live in it? Or do you actually say we can't go back now, like this is where we are. And the fact that it wasn't enough for some members of Congress to immediately put their britches on and haul us back to D.C. was, I think, another galling takeaway from, from this week.

[Leah Lippman]

One of the worst responses was, I don't agree with genocide, but like that was a sentence that some people actually uttered. And it's like, no, no, no, no. There's no but after that.

[Katie Fang]

There's no after that.

[Leah Lippman]

Just full stop. But you know, I know in Arrested Development the father says, I have the worst fucking attorneys. Every lawyer for the federal government and Donald Trump personally has to be saying, I have the worst fucking client with those posts. But I've been on those lawyers because last week Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche assumed the role of acting slash interim Attorney General. Katie, how did his premiere go? In your eyes?

[Katie Fang]

Thank you, Charmaine. I have another. Thank you, sir. May I have another? I was waiting for Todd to, to in. In the, in the theme of religion. I was waiting for him to whip out something and be like the self flagellation of I'm so sorry sir. I am here in piety to be able to do what you will anytime. I have never and I've been on this Earth for 51 years this year, Leah. I have never heard any iteration of an attorney general either. An assistant United States Attorney, an Attorney general, Deputy ag, whatever the hell you want to call them. I have never heard any of them say I love you, sir. I've never heard them say I love

[Leah Lippman]

you since you introduced it. Let's play that clip because here is Todd Blanche on the guy upstairs, by which he means Donald Trump himself, not

[Todd Blanche (clip)]

God, I love working for President Trump. It's the greatest honor of a lifetime. And if President Trump chooses to keep me as acting, that's an honor. If he chooses to nominate me, that's an honor. If he chooses to nominate somebody else and I go back to being the dag, that's an honor. If he chooses to nominate somebody else and asks me to go do something else, I will say thank you very much. I love you, sir. So I don't, I don't have any goals or actions, aspirations beyond that, that

[Leah Lippman]

he said that literally.

[Katie Fang]

It's funny because I actually covered that presser in one of the episodes on my YouTube channel. The thrust of that was to talk about the hypocrisy of them announcing this new fraud enforcement division when Trump himself has pardoned or given clemency to more than 70 of his allies, donors, friends, and people that have paid to play to get access. And they've all been convicted of fraud. And that more than $700 million in restitution and fines has now gone by the wayside, courtesy of Trump's clemency by way of pardons and commutations. That was the thrust of that episode I did. But of course, I played several clips from Blanche because It was a 24 minute press conference. And to give him credit, he took questions. And yet the level of just obsequious, disgusting, kind of like, let me grovel to say that I would love whatever you do to me was a little personal, Leah. I felt a little uncomfortable. It was a little like I'm watching

[Leah Lippman]

something I'm not in a cult of personality shirt, you know, asking questions answered by that shirt. I also did want to highlight one other clip that came up in Todd Blanche's media kind of bonanza this past week, which we will play here. And this is his take on ethics.

[Todd Blanche (clip)]

I mean, look, if you. If you were a prosecutor and you were trying to prosecute your boss, you have ethical duties as a lawyer that I think prevent you from continuing to work in that environment.

[Leah Lippman]

Katie, is that ethics?

[Katie Fang]

Not. Not the kind that I learned or that I got tested on to become a member of a bar. And you know what's crazy is, and it dovetails with that, with that clip, is that he actually. It's so funny if you only heard some portions of what the man had to say. It sounded noble and with integrity, right? He's like, if you're gonna work here, then you need to believe in things. But then. And then if you were to cut it there, you'd be like, oh, that sounds so great. But then he keeps on going and saying, because the only agenda here is the president's agenda. And I was like, bro, whatever happened to the rule of law and your oath to the Constitution? But that just goes to show anybody, Leah. Who piped up and said, ooh, maybe Todd Blanche is a better Pam Bondi, you are full of shit. Because there is no way Blanche is gonna sit there and allow Bondi to outdo him. When it comes to the ass kissing, Blanche is like, I get the gold medal, even though I am the guy responsible with the Bovey for my client to get 34 convictions on felonies in the only jury trial that Trump ever had. I have that claim to fame, but I will not allow Pami Jo with the bad hair to outdo me when it comes to the ass kissing.

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[Emily Amick]

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[Leah Lippman]

So another character in this clown show who had some things to say about the guy upstairs was Secretary of Defense slash Secretary of War Crimes, Pete Hegseth. Tegseth, I'm gonna play you a kind of series of clips that he delivered at one of his pressers and then ask you to kind of react to the insanity. So here he is at one of them.

[Pete Hegseth (clip)]

Our troops, our American warriors, deserve the credit for this day, but God deserves all the glory. Tens of thousands of sorties, refuelings, and strikes carried out under the protection of divine providence. A massive effort with miraculous protection.

[Leah Lippman]

It's been reported that Hegseth has held Christian worship services at the Pentagon. And in one of the recent ones, that post dated the administration's war on Iran. Here's some of what he said.

[Pete Hegseth (clip)]

First, a reading from the Book of Psalms, chapter 18, verses 37 to 42. King David writes, I pursued my enemies and overtook them and did not turn back till they were consumed.

[Leah Lippman]

He also recited a prayer given by a military chaplain to troops who participated in the capture and kidnapping of Nicolas Maduro.

[Pete Hegseth (clip)]

Almighty God, who trains our hands for war and our fingers for battle, you who stirred the nations from the north against Babylon of old, making her land a desolation where none dwell, behold now the wicked who rise against your justice and the peace of the righteous. Snap the rod of the oppressor, frustrate the wicked plans and break the teeth of the ungodly. By the blast of your anger, let the evil perish. Let their bulls go down to slaughter, for their day has come the time of their punishment. Pour out your wrath upon those who plot vain things and blow them away like chaff before the wind. Grant this task force clear and righteous targets for violence. Surround them as a shield. Protect the innocent and blameless in their midst. Make their arrows like those of a skilled warrior who returned not empty handed. Let every round find its mark against the enemies of righteousness and our great nation. Give them wisdom in every decision, endurance for the trial ahead, unbreakable unity, and overwhelming violence of action against those who deserve no mercy.

[Leah Lippman]

So, Katie, I realize I am asking you some version of this question a lot, but, like, how do you talk about or convey the enormity and gravity of this misuse of the military?

[Katie Fang]

You always have to start with the strong emphasis on the separation of church and state, because that has gone out the window TRUMP Term 1.0, by the way. Let's be clear. It's not just a novelty act that has jumped up right now in Trump term 2.0, but the separation of church of state is just the baseline where we start whenever we talk about this. But then the thing about Hegseth is that, you know, I was waiting for him to order everyone in that presser to bow their head in prayer. I mean, I was waiting for Trump to stand there with the collection plate at the end of the row, and then he pockets the money from the collection plate, from the offerings. I mean, that's the type of thing I felt like was gonna take place. But when you blur these lines, it's intentional. It is not. Number one, it's not sincere. Because there is nothing about Pete Kegsbreath that ever smacks of sincerity. That's good.

[Leah Lippman]

Kegsbreath. That's better than Kegseth. I love that. I'm gonna credit you for it.

[Emily Amick]

You can totally do it.

[Katie Fang]

I'm sure I cribbed it from somebody else. But number two, the Nefarious and very insidious part about all of this is the allowance, if not the overt pushing of this violation of church and state. Right. It ends up working towards their advantage, toward the narrative of this is a holy war.

[Leah Lippman]

Yes.

[Katie Fang]

And when you reduce it into very basic precepts of good versus evil, and when you couch it in a way where we are leading a crusade against infidels, which, by the way, he does have a tattoo that says infidel.

[Leah Lippman]

He also has the. Has the book American Crusade, in which he basically argued the crusades were justified.

[Katie Fang]

And he also argued for war crimes. There's no such thing as a war crime. He's never met a war crime he didn't love. Right. And that he didn't think people should be prosecuted as soldiers for war crimes because there are no rules of engagement. Right. I mean, these are walking textbook, like, examples of illegal conduct. And then you just have him in an enabling role like Trump has all around him, so that Trump can continue to post the insanity he posts on Truth Social, which is, I'm gonna commit a war crime. Why? Because my secretary of defense commits war crimes on the daily based upon the fact that God has now told him. And by the way, the Pope has told both of them.

[Leah Lippman]

Oh, you know why the Pope said no to all of this?

[Katie Fang]

Yeah. Peace out, brothers. That is not how God works here. But it is amazing that the entire. The base of Maga, which likes to cloak itself, even if they're evangelical about it, in these. In these ideas of Christianity and good that they don't. Other than Tucker Carlson calling him the Antichrist. But they don't actually say, no, no, no, we don't live in this space. Because I think the evangelical. You know, I talked about this before, Leah. The evangelicals gave him a pass when they thought that he was going to get rid of reproductive rights. And then when they delivered Roe being overturned, I was like, aren't you done? Like, what else do you need from this man? Do you real. Do you. Oh, oh, I guess you want the infidels now. Like, you want the total eradication of the Middle East. I get. I don't understand why they're in a

[Leah Lippman]

Christian nationalist country, an army. You know, that's part of why Hegseth is firing all the senior military officials. Right. Who are black or female or trans. I just think it is terrifying because it all seems in service of making the federal government, including the military, a Christian nationalist force, but because you introduced it, because the administration basically manages to turn everything upside down. Civil rights and More, of course, they're doing this with religion too, because all of this religious fervor is happening in the midst of reporting about this ghoulish warmongering the administration has directed at the Pope and the Vatican. Okay, so for listeners who might have missed this, the Free Press and other outlets reported that back in January, the Under Secretary of Defense Policy summoned the Pope's then Ambassador to the United States and delivered some kind of threat laden lecture to him about how the United States has the military power to do whatever it wants and that the Catholic Church had to take a side. And then during the meeting, One of the U.S. officials invoked the so called Avignon Papacy, which for those of you who might not know is when the French crown used military force to coerce the Bishop of Rome to do France's bidding, they literally forced the Pope, the Popes multiple, to reside in France rather than Rome, and it entailed using military force against the Holy See. So part of what was striking to me about this, Katie, is that these guys actually seem to have read some history, at least selectively. Like they don't know shit about reconstruction, but they're all boned up on the Avignon Papacy. Like what other history might they have or not have in their back pocket or what did you make of this reporting?

[Katie Fang]

Well, they initially pulled out Mein Kampf and they were like, oh, wrong one, wrong, wrong one. Let me put that back into my pocket. What's in my.

[Leah Lippman]

You're gonna make me recite the succession. So you read Mein Kampf multiple times for, for what? For what? Yeah.

[Katie Fang]

And what's the name of your dog? The name, it's a German shepherd. What's the name of your dog? And then I pull out, oh yeah, the Avignon Papacy. Let me, let me rely on, on this one, right? I mean, somebody just like Melania yesterday, somebody has given them talking points and that is the reason why they feel comfortable using that. But it is remarkable because you know what they didn't bone up on? How about sovereignty? How about the Vatican fucking having its own sovereignty? How about it's the Pope, people Like, it's like, I didn't have to tell you about Easter Sunday and not putting out an expletive lady and truth social post. But it's the Pope and it's our first American Pope. I mean, you gotta show some respect to the guy from Chicago and guess

[Leah Lippman]

who the bad guys in the Avignon Papacy were? The governments attacking the Pope.

[Katie Fang]

But it's very much, it's very much. They look for the convenient historical precedent to bolster what they want. So when they look at, you know, France and you had, you know, the Sun King, right, And he literally lived under this premise that he was the closest thing to God on this earth. I mean, that was the justification, among others, for his royal presence. I mean, there is a reason why, you know, whenever all of these kingdoms and these empires, they were literally so kissing cousin adjacent to religion. And that is what we have here in the 21st century with Trump. The problem is he is such a charlatan, and it is so obvious that he doesn't believe in what it is that that actually reduces any credibility on any of these claims that they make under the guise of Christianity.

[Leah Lippman]

They do seem to have a weird fetishization for, like, the French monarchy for being America first, you know, given this. And then also the fact that, like, Donald Trump is partially inspired by the palace of Versailles and, like, making some aspects of, like, his home or whatever, resorts, like, gold, like.

[Katie Fang]

Anyways, well, he's dissatisfied with America in general, right? Because he loves Viktor Orban, he loves Vladimir Putin, he loves the autocracies as they live in international countries, and that's why he wants to bring them here. He's like, let's, let's. There's no tariffs on autocracy. Let's bring them on in. Right? Bring them on American soil.

[Leah Lippman]

Yeah. But this meeting was apparently so alarming that it is a reason why the Pope did not go through with plans to visit the United States last year after being personally invited to attend, you know, America's 250th anniversary.

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[Emily Amick]

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[Katie Fang]

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[Leah Lippman]

So we started off this conversation with truce and unfortunately, that is how it's going to continue. So the president had some thoughts on the birthright citizenship argument, saying, quote, it's too bad that the Supreme Court can't watch and study the Mark Levin show on the birthright citizenship scam. Note, I'm just not sure these guys need to pickle or marinate their brains even more in the right wing ecosystem. But then that truth continued and in a rare moment of clarity, the president closed it with, quote, the country can only withstand so many bad decisions from a court that just doesn't seem to care, end quote, stop clocks, et cetera. So I mentioned at the top that I kind of wanted to get our listeners up to speed about a bad decision that you probably haven't heard about. And so I'm going to ask you for your take on this, Katie. And that's the Supreme Court's decision to deny certiorari. That is not to hear the case of Skinner vs. Louisiana. So bear with me for a bit. The summary is going to take a little. The case stems from several convictions for the murder of a Mr. Wahlber. No physical evidence tied the two defendants, Mr. Weary and Mr. Skinner, to the murder. Instead, their convictions relied on the testimony of two people, Sam Scott and Eric Brown. Scott had been incarcerated and he came forward. He claimed to be an eyewitness to the crime, although his statement messed up the year of the crime, how the victim was killed and where the body was found. Stamen also didn't identify either defendant until later. And the other eyewitness, Eric Brown, gave an initial statement that also didn't mention Mr. Skinner. Okay, so at the trial, the prosecution describes Scott as a, quote, hero whose fit of conscience broke open a cold case. And they said that Brown was getting, quote, nothing in exchange for his testimony. Slight problem. State withheld the fact that Scott was able to obtain a manslaughter plea that gave him credit for time served such that he would be let out of prison after testifying. And the state didn't disclose that Brown had attempted to get a deal for his testimony and that police promised to talk to the district attorney about a sentence he was facing and additional charges. The state withheld other evidence, too, but you get the picture. Yeah, Kitty, how bad of a Brady violation is even just that.

[Katie Fang]

It's like, open the dictionary to Brady and see Skinner versus Louisiana. No, I mean, it's, you know, you don't even have to. This is the miracle of this. You don't even have to be a lawyer to appreciate it. Leah. Right. Just on its face. You don't even have to know the intricacies about the fourth, the fifth, the eighth. Right. You don't have to worry. You don't even have to mind yourself on those amendments. You don't have to worry about the black letter law. It just, in your gut doesn't sit right. You know, it's information that you would think would be necessary for a jury to make a decision as to the criminal culpability of a person. And the fact that this was intentionally withheld on its face should be enough procedurally to say this, this is not right. We can't move forward with this.

[Leah Lippman]

And part of what is so appalling is that indeed, it was bad enough for the Supreme Court to intervene about a decade ago. So back in 2016, in Weary vs. Cain, the court summarily reversed a Louisiana decision and vacated Mr. Weary's murder conviction on the ground that the state withheld evidence that would have seriously impeached the state star witnesses. And the court said the conviction rested on the house of cards. But here's the thing. Mr. Skinner was convicted of the same crime as Mr. Weary, the same murder. On the basis of the same star witnesses testimony, state withheld the same evidence. And in Mr. Skinner's case, the Supreme Court just says, cert denied. And this is the kind of stuff the Supreme Court could have put on its docket, rather than the birthright citizenship matter. I mean, just this last week, the Washington Post ran a story saying that this court is a first since the 1950s to reject most civil rights claims involving women and minorities. And I just think people need to understand that the Supreme Court is bad not just because of the things they do, but because of the things they decline to do as well, like how they choose to spend their time.

[Katie Fang]

Yeah, and this is a great example of why elections have consequences. People often think of it more in the narrow lane of who's my senator, Right. Or who's my representative. I mean, and I always like to remind people that it is almost the tentacles of this are so far reaching that with a Senate win in a man Like Mitch McConnell, who ends up being the architect of the stacking of the federal bench, admittedly with the assistance and at the behest of Leonard Leo, and the whole Federalist Society energy. But you create a stacked federal bench and then you create almost like a nuclear arms race when it comes to presidential administrations. Right. Because it ends up being a race to see who can make the most appointments during their presidential term on these federal appointments. Right. Because these are lifetime. And this is the other thing. These are lifetime appointments, even on the district court level, the trial court level. And then of course, you end up with like Emil Bovey on the third, on the appellate court level, et cetera. But the fact of the matter that this 10 years ago, that the countenance of the Supreme Court of The United States ten years ago in 2016 was materially different than what you have looked at now Post Trump term 1.0, so that you end up with identical claims, identical facts, identical issues, identical evidence that was suppressed for one man but not for another creates such an egregious inconsistent result that as you said, sometimes it's not what we know, it's the stuff that we don't know about. It's the stuff that's happening behind the scenes. And I'm not talking shadow docket, I'm talking these types of decisions that are being rendered that are in three words, not even or one sentences, you know, whatever. And that, that has far reaching implications as well. And listen, I get it. It's Louisiana, which in and of itself, you know, is troubling. But I mean, how do you have them on all fours be the exact same facts, exact same issues, and you screw over Skinner in that way? Well, you know, there you go.

[Leah Lippman]

Yeah, I'm so glad you brought up the distinction between 2016 and 2026, because another thing our listeners might not know is that it takes four votes on the Supreme Court to hear a case. And what that means is the three Democratic appointees couldn't force the issue today in a way they could have in 2016 before Justice Ginsburg passed away. And to think that this differential treatment might come down to that is just gutting. You know, it just defies the idea of equal justice under the law.

[Katie Fang]

Which is why when we find out weeks after the fact that Alito ends up going to the hospital and stuff. Right. And we, and we don't know about it in real time, I think is a sign of the fact that they're fully cognizant with Alito and Thomas being the literal elders on the court. Right. The oldest people on the court. And they are two of the most conservative, conservative, if not the most conservative justice on the Supreme Court. We've had, like, the fact that Alito goes to the hospital and it's kept silent for as long as it was, I think is a tell on their part that they know that there is something going on here, which is why we should be paying attention to these things. And it kind of gets us back to that big debate of should she or should she not have stayed? Right. I mean, I hear that all the time. Should people stay in. There was a recent kind of debate over Sonia Sotomayor. Should she. Should she go, whatever. So, I mean, it's kind of interesting how we all are now. It's almost like, you know, it reminds me of, like, when the. The Emperor of China, somebody looked at his poop every day to see whether or not he was healthy. Well, I mean, are we gonna get. Are they at that point now or the Supreme Court justice?

[Leah Lippman]

These guys, at least Alito already make us look at his shit almost anytime he writes an opinion. So, yeah, no, you set me up for that one. But speaking of, you know, deciding whether to stay or whether to go, I wanted to note a notable retirement announcement that came out of the Court of Appeals for the A Circuit, and it was this Judge Erickson on the A Circuit announced that he's taking senior status. Not notable, although choosing to give the madman threatening nuclear war the option to name your replacement is a choice. But the interesting thing is that Erickson was actually appointed to the A Circuit by Donald Trump during his first term. So the guy's been on the A Circuit bench for less than eight years. What did you make of that? Or think when you kind of saw this guy was like, quickly, you know, stepping down?

[Katie Fang]

Well, he is one of several that are actually kind of running to the exits, but not in a way that we should find reassuring. Erickson's vacancy on the 8th will create the opportunity for Trump to appoint his senior sixth nominee judge to this bench and his four prior that have been the white men that the ABA deemed to be not qualified to serve.

[Leah Lippman]

And.

[Katie Fang]

And I. And by the way, we should still go by the ABA qualifications, even though the DOJ and the United States Senate have decided on the Republican side not to do it. They've all been white male. There have been no women. There have no been women of color that have come from Trump. And so there have been other circuit appellate court judges that have also said, I think I'm going to take retirement now or I'm going to go to senior status. Because they know that this creates another opportunity for Trump to put someone on the bench, which, again, Elections have consequences if you have people that are elected to either the Oval Office and where you get a Katanji Brown Jackson, courtesy of former President Joe Biden, or if you end up with a Donald Trump, where you end up with a Brett Kavanaugh.

[Leah Lippman]

Right.

[Katie Fang]

I mean, these are material things that impact your life. And you know, if there's any silver lining to all this, Leah, and I think you of all people would agree, especially on this pod. If anything, the Trump terms, as horrific as they have been, have actually brought, I think, more knowledge and interest in the Supreme Court of the United States that we've ever had in the history of that court. So much so that people are understanding that these Supreme Court justices of nine have so much power over us as Americans that we should be paying attention to our elections. And who gets in positions to vote these unqualified people through in the United States Senate.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Leah Lippman]

So since you mentioned unqualified, wanted to note one other development in the Court of Appeals, and that's out of the Ninth Circuit. So a two judge panel of the Ninth Circuit, both judges, Trump appointees, including one rated unqualified, struck down a California law that sought to limit the amount of profits that dialysis providers could get from patients who receive assistance from nonprofit charities in paying their health insurance. So the law essentially imposed like a rate cap had a disclosure requirement and whatnot. And the thinking was like this package of requirements would remove financial incentives to see, steer patients to specific healthcare coverage and, you know, by reimbursing dialysis clinics at Medicare rates. Katie, want to guess why these two geniuses said this statute attempting to rate cap dialysis provision was unconstitutional?

[Katie Fang]

I'm going to guess that it's the flavor du jour lately, which is the

[Leah Lippman]

First Amendment, that it's so sad because that amendment has become like a punchline, like the Aristocrats. I feel like we need a First Amendment for Freaks segment because this is what they're doing.

[Katie Fang]

They've weaponized and bastardized the First. I mean, you don't have to look very far from what was it a week ago that we had the conversion therapy decision from scotus, Right.

[Leah Lippman]

Yep.

[Katie Fang]

I mean, and that was under the guise of the First Amendment as well, right? I mean, the First Amendment has now been weaponized and bastardized in a way that I find to be remarkable, especially for the Republicans to be deploying it in this way.

[Leah Lippman]

Yeah. No points for guessing. One member of the panel, who of course was Judge Lawrence Van Dyke, the creator of the Amosexual porn video and the author of the opinion that contained swinging dicks, who also managed to be the speaker at the National Federalist Society convention about, you guessed it, the proper role for the judiciary. The jokes write themselves. So, Katie, do you want to share with our listeners your favorite things over the last week?

[Katie Fang]

I would say that, as always, a top pole position is always gonna be my dog Lucky. And the reason why is the following. It has been an incredibly trying week. And I will say if there's one thing that always comes from spending time with my dog, it is a reminder that unconditional love does exist. And two, that we should aspire to be as amazing people as our dogs think we are, which I think anybody could believe in and understand. I think the other kind of favorite thing that I had from this week is I felt like I went to this conference, Leah, in Boston, and it was around a whole bunch of very smart, like minded, pro democracy people. And I left that conference understanding that we are not limited in geography in terms of our desires to make our country a better place. Like sometimes we feel like I, for example, feel like a blue dot in a red sea. But it has been kind of like a one, two punch in a good way of leaving no Kings Day 3.0 in Minneapolis St. Paul and going to this event in Boston. Like, it reminds me that there, there are these pockets that are growing of sane, very, very motivated people that understand what's at stake. And so no snark, just genuine love, affection and appreciation for the idea that we are here to sustain each other in all the right ways. And that is exactly how I managed to get through the insanity of this week.

[Leah Lippman]

Well, I love that. Thank you so much for joining. As always, we truly love having you here.

[Katie Fang]

I'm always speechless at the end of spending time with you. I feel like I live in the minutiae and then I spend time with you and I'm like, I really don't live in this level of minutiae.

[Leah Lippman]

My personality is basically in the footnotes.

[Emily Amick]

In the footnotes.

[Katie Fang]

No, listen, Caroline products, right, footnote 14.

[Leah Lippman]

That's great.

[Katie Fang]

If there's anything I remember discreet, insular minority. Yeah, listen, all kidding aside, like, I, I know it's a win when I leave feeling smarter. And I've also got to spend time with one of my favorite people who's a fellow dog lover and a fellow Taylor Swift fan. And so I'm always grateful.

[Leah Lippman]

Well, thank you so much again, Katie listeners. Again, please check out and subscribe to Katie's YouTube channel as well as her substack manages to kind of thread that needle between keeping you informed without making you insane. A true gift. So coming up next, Emily Amick will join to talk the 25th Amendment and what shouting into the void does.

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[Leah Lippman]

Before we get to my interview with Emily Amick, a point of view personal privilege, where I get to talk about a state race here in Michigan with pretty big national implications. So right now there is a competitive primary in Michigan to be the Democratic candidate for Attorney General of Michigan. And at the end of last week, the Trump administration sued one of the people running to be the Democratic candidate for Attorney general of Michigan, and that's Ellie Savitt, the current Washtenaw county prosecutor. You scared, Donald? Seriously. We know Trump targets the fighters. People challenge him like Representative Lamonica McIver, Jim Comey, New York Attorney General Letitia James. Now he's targeting Ellie Savitt, who is running to be Michigan's next attorney general. Our listeners know we've had Ellie on the show before when he talked about how he would protect LGBT rights as Michigan's next attorney general. Disclosure he's also a law school classmate of mine, and the lawsuit against Ellie is unhinged. It's about immigration policies and it faults Ellie as Washtenaw county prosecutor forget this enforcing the Fourth Amendment, saying it's a problem that Washtenaw county requires judicial warrants for some immigration enforcement. When did it become unconstitutional to enforce the Constitution? Inquiring minds would like to know. The lawsuit also complains that Ellie isn't handing over information to ICE to help them in their dragnet. Immigration enforcement. When we have all seen what federal immigration enforcement looks like, hauling people out of cars, pepper spraying children, zip tying children and shooting and killing civilians. So basically, they are also saying it is illegal to stand up for public safety. Again, we've had Ellie on the show. He's talked about protecting rights from the lingering specter of fascism. And seriously now it makes me wonder. Donald, you scared? And now I am delighted to be joined by Emily Amick, the Emily behind Emily in youn Phone, former counsel to Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, and the co author of the recent New York Times bestseller Democracy in Retrograde, the paperback version of which is coming out this month. Welcome back to the show, Emily.

[Emily Amick]

Hi, Leah. I'm so excited to be here.

[Leah Lippman]

I am very excited to have you because this past week there's been a lot of talk about the 25th Amendment, and you wrote a great piece on it. So I was hoping we could walk through what the 25th Amendment is, why it's come up, and why we should be talking about it. So I guess let's just start with the basics. So what is the 25th amendment?

[Emily Amick]

Yeah. So after JFK was assassinated, everyone was like, wait, whoopsie doodle, what's going to happen? What's going to happen if the president is incapacitated and we don't have anyone leading the country? Maybe there should be some procedures that we should have. And they were like, the wild thing

[Leah Lippman]

is that there were actually like, assassinations and whatnot before that point. And it's like they didn't realize it then, right? Like, you know, Garfield, Grover Cleveland, and no, no, no, no, no. But it was jfk, nbd.

[Emily Amick]

No big deal. We'll just, it's fine. There's a man there. Someone will do it, right? And so they were like, let's do a thing. Let's do an amendment and set up a procedure. And the procedure is the vice president has to start this and he has to get a group of buddies together. So he has to get either part of the Cabinet or, as Jamie Raskalin is now circulating, a congressionally designated group of people all get together. They send a letter to Congress being like, hey, guys, the president's in a Bad way. It's not going well over here. And then the President could be like, actually, I'm fine, and stop it. And then the group can once again be like, no, Congress, we think our buddy is doing poorly. We really need you to do a vote on this.

[Leah Lippman]

See the Truth Post. See the Truth Post.

[Emily Amick]

Have you gone to www.truth.com? i don't even know what the website is. And then Congress has to vote on it, and it's 2 3rd majority, and then the Vice President is the president. And so, you know, invoking the 25th Amendment has never actually happened. When Reagan had the attempted assassination, there was discussions about it. But it is, you know, my posture on this is that Talking about the 25th, I'll like, cut to the chase, which is my posture, is that, like, Talking about the 25th Amendment isn't really about invoking the 25th Amendment, it's about talking about it.

[Leah Lippman]

Okay, so then I think you've begun to answer the question that I wanted to ask, which is, as you kind of laid out, of course, invoking the 25th Amendment requires the actions of J.D. vance and the Cabinet, which is a cabinet of loyalists and hacks.

[Emily Amick]

Yeah. Jay's not like, going against Trump, I don't think.

[Leah Lippman]

Right, exactly. Exactly.

[Emily Amick]

Right.

[Leah Lippman]

Neither is like Pete Kegseth. Right. Neither is all of the other weirdos in the Cabinet. I mean, Todd Blanche is acting Attorney General now. Right. Like, that's not happening. So then, if the actual 25th Amendment, Section 4 of the 25th Amendment, the process you laid out, is not going to materialize, why is Talking about the 25th Amendment still important?

[Emily Amick]

Well, and the other thing to point out is the other available option is impeachment, which you have discussed probably for hours and hours and hours of your life at this point, which again, requires majority of the House, two thirds of the Senate, a number that is unattainable, even if it could be started, which functionally it can't be because Republicans control both chambers. And so because a lot of people are saying, like, don't talk about the 25th, talk about impeachment. And it's like, guys, same, same. You know what I mean?

[Leah Lippman]

Right? Yeah, same, same.

[Emily Amick]

And to a significant degree, Democrats have not been talking about impeachment or 25th because they want to focus on the issues and affordability and sort of Trump's actual actions. But what the 25th allows you to talk about, impeachment requires, like, specific actions that are bad. And what we saw from the first two impeachments was none of that really. Pierced the public consciousness in a really significant way. But 25th is just like, this dude's incompetent. This dude's Nutter Butters. And that does pierce the public consciousness and gets to a general feeling of the zeitgeist, which is like, I don't like having this guy have.

[Leah Lippman]

We have a mad case. Yeah.

[Emily Amick]

Right.

[Leah Lippman]

Like, he is literally threatening nuclear war.

[Emily Amick]

Right.

[Leah Lippman]

And he vacillates back and forth between, oh, the strait is open. The strait is not open. Charging rates. Not charging rates. And that sort of erratic behavior you would think might cause people some concern. I mean, we spent months and endless news cycles and media cycles talking about Joe Biden's mental acuity. So we know this is a potential topic of interest. And that's interesting that the 25th Amendment opens that door in a way that impeachment might not.

[Emily Amick]

Yeah. I mean, one of the things Republicans can do really well is make something, like, Sleepy Joe happen. Right. Whereas, like, the Democratic base is like, no, we want something policy, we want procedure, we want actionable things. Like, we want to see reality. They won't just participate in the sort of narrative building that is the foundation for any action and any political change. Right. Which is one of our problems.

[Leah Lippman]

Yeah. No, and also, these things are just inextricably related. Right. The fact that we have a mad king starting baseless wars and causing problems is part of why the economy is going to shit. Right. And gas prices are up, and all of these things are more difficult. So I guess, like, another part of me was thinking about the 25th Amendment as a almost stocking horse for the underlying issues. Like, Talking about the 25th Amendment is, in some ways an opening to discussing all of the ways that Donald Trump just makes things and our lives worse by being a mad king. Yeah.

[Emily Amick]

And you know, the other thing about 25th amendment is it. It's sort of algorithmically optimized. There are certain types of conversations that work really well on social media, and it's hard to articulate what those things are. If I spend an egregious amount of time on the Internet, and I sort of have this feel for it at this point, and it is something that has legs. And there's sort of a reticence to participate in these campaigns, I think, amongst people, because they can feel that that's what it is, but it works. And which is why I sort of am like, let's lean in. Let's do it. Let's do it. This is a good idea.

[Leah Lippman]

Yeah. No, that's so interesting. And I Don't know if it's because it's, you know, partially a legalistic culture, if it's partially the promise of a solution, if it's partially, as you were saying, a way of talking about Trump's unfitness. But you're right, like it does seem to garner a kind of attention that just saying. Right. Like Trump is threatening nuclear war somehow doesn't. Yeah.

[Emily Amick]

People love like zingers. You know what I mean?

[Leah Lippman]

Yeah.

[Emily Amick]

They love terms that I mean again, that's why they like Sleepy Joe. You know what I mean? It somehow really gets at the heart of the emotional resonance of an issue. Less so the like, precise nature of it. And I think for a lot of people, 25th Amendment feels, it feels validating to their pre existing belief that he's a mad king. And then it feels hopeful that there is a solution to a problem.

[Leah Lippman]

Yeah. And I should say, I feel like we have been trapped in this, I don't know, 18 months of news stories about how Democrats are looking for people who can help with messaging and influencers and whatnot. And I just want to point out I'm talking to Juan right here and that like her ideas are spelled out in democracy and retrograde. So maybe like send it to your congressional representatives and tell them.

[Emily Amick]

Right.

[Leah Lippman]

It's right here.

[Emily Amick]

Anyway, I, in fact, have been writing about this almost every day for eight years.

[Leah Lippman]

Yes.

[Emily Amick]

And begging Democrats to invest in the influencer infrastructure for eight years. And they say you're a middle aged woman who knows.

[Leah Lippman]

Right, exactly. Therefore irrelevant.

[Emily Amick]

You're irrelevant. You're just going to be the most important voting bloc in 2028. But who gives a fuck?

[Leah Lippman]

Yeah. You know, the 25th Amendment, kind of keeping it in the conversation also reminded me of something that happened this past week, which was Justice Sotomayor continuing to drag Brett Kavanaugh or Kavanaugh stops. So she said at a recent appearance. Yeah, I know. Quote, I had a colleague in that case who wrote, you know, these are only temporary stops. This is from a man whose parents were professionals and probably doesn't really know any person who works by the hour, end quote. Like, it's a way of keeping something in the conversation. And I one, I love that. But then a part of me was also terrified, like, why is she making these statements now? What did Brett Kavanaugh do this time? Did that cross your mind?

[Emily Amick]

What did he say to her at last week's dinner party? Supreme Court. Exactly. What did he say at conference?

[Leah Lippman]

What crazy vote did he cast?

[Emily Amick]

I don't know, but I think that the other thing that this is doing, that she is doing and the 25th Amendment is doing is setting a foundation. Right. So future clerks drafting a decision on that matter will see her comment and think about it. Right. Like it affects the Overton window. I like to talk about a lot public conversations do directly relate to policy and law. We see that in judicial decision making. Right. Like in a very literal sense and in a figurative sense. Figuratively, things change. I mean, Oberg Fell is like the greatest example, I think, of a. Of a decision that says, like, actually, society has changed and we are going to decide the law differently. Of course, we have now a Supreme Court conservative majority that doesn't agree that life should change. And they say, actually, let's go back to the time when most of you people had nothing, no rights. But putting that aside, I think that that is one of the things that Justice Sotomayor is doing there is saying, I want to make sure next time this comes up, people take note of this one very specific thing and maybe feel a little bit guilty, but understand

[Leah Lippman]

the absurdity of it. Right.

[Emily Amick]

Not that Kavanaugh would ever take a moment to think about hourly wage workers in his life.

[Leah Lippman]

No, no. But maybe someone else would. That would also require Kavanaugh taking a moment to think also. Might be beyond capacity.

[Emily Amick]

Hard for him.

[Leah Lippman]

Right. Speaking of scary things, though, Emily, when you joined us at a live show, we played a game with you. And I wanted to close this episode with a little game of helping us say goodbye to Rebecca Bradley. Becky, with the bad takes, soon to be the former justice of the Wisconsin Supreme Court because Chris Taylor won the election, meaning there's now a 5 to 2 progressive majority on that Wisconsin Supreme Court. And I don't know, are you up for this?

[Emily Amick]

I'm so excited, and I'm like, so excited for Wisco. And every time, every time I hear the nihilism of the Democratic base, nothing can change. Everything is broken. No one will ever do anything. I'm like, false, incorrect. Like, look at what we've been doing with the Wisconsin Supreme Court. Elon has had invested millions, tens of millions of dollars. And we're still winning, you know, like you. And we're winning on good issues, running good people. It's very, very possible if you run good races with good people.

[Leah Lippman]

Yeah. And on that note, I mean, the Wisconsin Supreme Court was the only court in the country that actually cast any vote in support of Donald Trump's theories in the aftermath of the 2020 presidential election to try to throw out votes. They actually came within one vote, one single vote of doing so. And now that court has whipsawed right, shifted so dramatically in favor of this progressive direction. And that is over a period of six years. So we can do hard things. And the optimistic note Emily sounded again, you can find in Democracy in Retrograde

[Emily Amick]

and Democracy in Retrograde. It's so in talking about these Wisconsin Supreme Court elections, I wrote that book, and one of the people who I've seen develop her investment in her community over these years, her name's Kate Duffy, and she started supporting Mandela Barnes Senate race, doing Moms for Mandela in Wisconsin, and has now gotten involved in all of these Supreme Court races, making political content on Instagram and working on the ground, organizing. And like, I have seen democracy in retrograde in action with everything that Kate is doing. She got involved in her community on issues she cared about. She spoke out. She found community. One of my big, like, premises of the book is, like, there's actually a lot of joy to find in this work. And Kate and I are, like, really good friends now, and we have a lot of joy in everything we do together. And so I think it's the perfect example. And she's now working like they're winning. What a pleasure that is.

[Leah Lippman]

Right? And so speaking of finding joy and finding joy in winning, let's shift to dancing on the judicial, I don't know, office. Grave of one Rebecca Bradley. Okay, so, Emily Tour. False. In a 1992 column, Rebecca Bradley argued that under a Clinton presidency, one would be better off contracting AIDS than developing cancer because those afflicted with the politically correct disease will get all of the funding. True or false?

[Emily Amick]

True.

[Leah Lippman]

Oh, yeah, true. Although, when she ran for the Wisconsin Supreme Court, she indicated that since that column, she began a process of change in her life.

[Emily Amick]

She's like, I can't say these thoughts out loud. I have to keep them inside.

[Leah Lippman]

Exactly. That was the process of change.

[Emily Amick]

Yeah.

[Leah Lippman]

Okay, next one. True or false. Rebecca Bradley once called the progressive members of the Wisconsin Supreme Court, quote, handmaidens of the Democratic Party.

[Emily Amick]

False.

[Leah Lippman]

True. She did that. She did that. Yeah. Yeah.

[Emily Amick]

Doesn't work.

[Leah Lippman]

Oh, yeah. Okay, next one. True or false? In an opinion, Rebecca Bradley wrote, quote, d E I A is a disguise for dangerous identity politics.

[Emily Amick]

I mean, the thing is, I wouldn't put anything past this woman. So I'll go with true.

[Leah Lippman]

True. She did. Yep. She did that one.

[Emily Amick]

Sure.

[Leah Lippman]

Okay.

[Emily Amick]

Sure. What a. It's not even funny. You know what I mean? Make a good joke, girl.

[Leah Lippman]

Okay, well, I may. Maybe this one will be a joke. But true or false, Rebecca Bradley edited her own Wikipedia page. True, true. She did that one too. She's a busy, busy lady. Okay.

[Emily Amick]

So pathetic.

[Katie Fang]

I know.

[Emily Amick]

I'm, like, always so happy to win, especially when it's against these freaking losers.

[Leah Lippman]

I'm also so happy to be reminded that they truly can't handle criticism. Right. Like she edited her own Wikipedia page. She decided not to run for reelection rather than be in the minority on the Wisconsin Supreme Court. So, yeah, it has that going for.

[Emily Amick]

I mean, she's barely. She was mostly appointed. She only ran one time.

[Leah Lippman]

Right, right, exactly. She was appointed by Scott Walker. Yep. Okay, next one. True or false? In a single opinion, Rebecca Bradley cited Charles Love, Race Crazy BLM 1619 and the Progressive racism movement, said we live in a, quote, increasingly race obsessed society. And. And cited Ben Shapiro, how to debate Leftists and Destroy Them.

[Katie Fang]

Ugh.

[Leah Lippman]

True, true, single opinion. All of that and more. Think about that fact as you listen to her takes in a recentish interview here.

[Katie Fang]

As a justice, I do not share my personal beliefs about anything that is political. I'm dismayed that issues are being talked about under the guise of values.

[Leah Lippman]

Did that hit for you?

[Emily Amick]

Yeah. So hard.

[Leah Lippman]

Every accusation is a confession. And now our own little montage to say goodbye to Becky with the bad takes.

[Katie Fang]

I also think the way Judge Crawford ran her race was disgusting. She slandered a good man. Judge Schimmel. We saw this last time against Justice Kelly. It's really sickening.

[Leah Lippman]

How are you feeling about working with

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Susan Crawford on the Wisconsin Supreme Court?

[Katie Fang]

I'm not looking forward to working with her. Could the legislatures. It's okay to usurp the legislature's constitutional mandate to redistrict, but it's not okay for the Court. I'm not following your argument. I'd like an answer to my question. Justice first.

[Leah Lippman]

I think it's because the legislature was a party.

[Katie Fang]

Are you arguing the case?

[Leah Lippman]

And here she is at the very beginning of the oral argument concerning Wisconsin state legislative gerrymander. Good morning and may it please the court. The Wisconsin Constitution's redistricting requirements are not optional. Yes.

[Katie Fang]

Council, where were you? Where were your clients two years ago? Because we've already been through this. Redistricting happens once every 10 years.

[Leah Lippman]

Just frothing at the mouth to get in there.

[Katie Fang]

Yeah.

[Leah Lippman]

Emily, final words on Wisconsin. 25th Amendment, democracy in retrograde, or anything else.

[Emily Amick]

I guess the thing that I have to say and the reason I wrote Democracy in retrograde.

[Leah Lippman]

Right.

[Emily Amick]

Which is all about the fact that, like, unfortunately has continued to become more true as the book has been out over the last couple years. Is that like it doesn't, we don't have to stay in retrograde. We can change things and it is very, very possible. And it just requires everyone to do something. Everyone doesn't have to do everything. It's just we need everyone to do something. And those things can be things that bring you joy and make you happy and add like incredible value to your life and enrich our communities. And I very much have hope and faith that we will get there, which is a weird thing to say for someone who's been a practicing lawyer for 20 years. We are the most negative. It's like us in dentists. We're like the most negative people. But you know, I'm friends with my

[Leah Lippman]

dentist,

[Emily Amick]

but you know, I feel confident that we are on the right side of history and we will prevail. And I just. The question is how quickly that will happen.

[Leah Lippman]

Well, that is a terrific place to end and actually a perfect segue to ending the episode with our favorite things. So I'll go first and share my favorite things over the last week. So one of course is Emily's co written book which is co written with Sammy Sage, Democracy in Retrograde. Again, get the paperback version. I feel like it's the perfect thing in the lead up to to the midterms to really like light the fire under your butt and whatnot.

[Emily Amick]

And now that it's in paperback, there's like a personality quiz and lots of worksheets. So it's gonna be really easy to fill out. And if you have someone in your life who has been struggling politically, it's the perfect gift.

[Leah Lippman]

I like that. Struggling politically. It's a nice way of putting it. Also wanted to recommend a post from friend of the show Professor Steve Vladik over at One Drunk's Lamppost. And the Birthright Citizenship case, which kind of talks about the role of academics and normalizing the administration's unhinged theories about birthright citizenship. Some other favorites would be the news Chirons. As Melania said she never had a relationship or friendship with Epstein or Maxwell. Some of them were truly next level. Also Levain Bakery. I don't even know if you. That's how you say it, but they released a seasonal carrot cake cookie.

[Katie Fang]

What?

[Leah Lippman]

Yeah, I know. Public service announcement. Get on that. And last but not least, please vote for us in the Webby Awards. Just a few days left to vote and we will include a link in the show notes. Vote for them. So Emily, how about your favorite Podcast.

[Emily Amick]

Okay. I have four things I wrote on a post it note in preparation for this event.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

I love it.

[Emily Amick]

Number one, the book that I have called Book Club Final Boss. Have you read Strangers by Belle Burden?

[Leah Lippman]

Yes.

[Emily Amick]

Yeah, I mean, everyone I know, they pick it up. They said they read it in one sitting.

[Leah Lippman]

Yes.

[Emily Amick]

And then the book takes seven hours to read. And then you spend seven hours talking about it with your friends and there's so much to discuss. And that makes it all the more delicious. So that is thing number one. Thing number two is it's spring, which means I get to have my favorite recipe, which is the Smitten Kitchen Zucchini Butter Spaghetti. Are you a Smitten kitchen?

[Leah Lippman]

I love Smitten Kitchen and I also love zucchini squash and making recipes with that. My partner doesn't like it and it's so frustrating.

[Emily Amick]

So your partner may like this because it doesn't taste like zucchini. I put in extra zucchini. You like caramelize the zucchini? I do recommend using a fresh pasta, like a fresh linguine. I think it really makes it taste better to have that bite. Highly recommend everyone try out that recipe. Third thing is, I probably said this last time I was here because it's always on my list. I'm picking my needle point back up and I'm always putting it down. And then being like, you know what would bring me joy? Continuing to work on this project that I've been working on for seven years.

[Leah Lippman]

Whatever sparks joy, you know what I mean?

[Emily Amick]

I need a little meditative time. And the fourth and final thing is I have started to do meetups with my community, my UIP community, and we're doing one in San Francisco in a couple days. And like over 80 people have RSVP'd. And the point is, is there's no point. We're just like, hang out and meet and everyone's gonna make new friends.

[Leah Lippman]

But it's energizing.

[Emily Amick]

It's. And I think that people are really, they want irl. You know, I am so terminally online, but we want third places. You want time to be with other people and have fun and talk about your interests. You know, I'm going to force 17 different people to talk about my needlepoint. That's fine. And your dog or whatever it is, you know what I mean? And I think people are really yearning for that. And that is part of the social fabric that makes us, like, politically potent and viable. And there's a real value to it. And there's a real value into finding joy and happiness points in our lives, especially when the world is so hard right now. So I'm super excited. I'm going to do one in New York. I'm going to do one in Boston to get to do these things, which I haven't been doing the last couple years. And so it's bringing me incredible joy that I get to do them now.

[Leah Lippman]

That's great, Emily. Thank you so much for joining again. We always love having you happy to be here. And finally, some housekeeping before we go. One why does it seem like the Supreme Court always saves its worst decisions for June? Maybe the first gentle breezes of summer fill them with inexplicable rage? We can't say for sure. In any case, this June, the three of us with strict scrutiny are headed to New York City to break down all the cases in question and whatever horrors the Roberts court has in store for us with judicial expertise and those petty jokes at Samuel Alito's expense in equal measure. Honestly, maybe more of the second, but you can catch strict scrutiny live at the historic gramercy theater on June 20 as part of the Bad Decisions tour. Tickets are on sale now. Grab [e-mail] events. Also, if you've been following the latest headlines around policing, ICE and immigration enforcement, the Empire City Podcast Club from Crooked Ideas is the place to fully unpack it. Each week, host Chenjerai Kumanyika and special guests dig into the systems behind those stories, how this power was built, who it serves, and what it means for public safety. Right now, every session focuses on a new theme, with space to connect the dots and ask bigger questions. Whether you've been tracking every headline or just starting to tune in, you can be part of the conversation. We'll send a reminder before we kick things off. The next session is tomorrow. The club will send a reminder before they kick things off. The next session is tomorrow, April 14th at 5pm Pacific, 8pm Eastern. Sign up at crookedideas.org EmpireCity. Strict Scrutiny is a crooked media production hosted and executive produced by me, Leah Lippman, Melissa Marie and Kate Shaw. Our senior producer and editor is Melody Rowell. Michael Goldsmith is our producer. Jordan Thomas is our intern. Music by Eddie Cooper. Production support from Katie Long and Adrienne Hill. Matt de Groot is our head of production and thanks to our digital team, Ben Hethcote, Johanna Case, Kenny Moffitt and Eric Schutt, our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. If you haven't already, be sure to subscribe to strict scrutiny in your favorite podcast app and on YouTube strict scrutiny podcast so you never miss an episode and if you want to help other people find the show, please rate and review us. It really helps.

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