Stronger with Don Saladino
Episode: Get Stronger at Negotiating with Desmond O’Neill
Release Date: February 10, 2026
Host: Don Saladino
Guest: Desmond O’Neill
Overview
This episode of Stronger goes beyond the typical fitness podcast format, focusing on the concept of "strength" as it applies to negotiation, communication, and personal resilience. Don Saladino sits down with Desmond O’Neill—a 30-year veteran of federal law enforcement and expert interrogator—who shares insights drawn from his career with the Secret Service, Homeland Security Investigations, and the High Value Detainee Interrogation Group (HIG).
Desmond explores what it truly means to be strong as a communicator, how to approach difficult conversations, and the critical distinction between manipulation and influence. From personal stories to practical frameworks, this conversation is rich with real-world applications—whether you're negotiating with criminals, business partners, or even your own family.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Desmond O’Neill’s Background & Philosophy
[05:01] - [07:06]
- 30 years in law enforcement: Secret Service, Homeland Security, and instructor for the HIG.
- The HIG was created to develop non-coercive, research-backed methods for reliable intelligence gathering.
- Desmond shifted his interrogation philosophy from accusatorial to curiosity-driven: “The power of curiosity over confrontation.”
Desmond: “I became involved in a group called the HIG... for the purpose of finding better ways to gain accurate, reliable information.” [05:20]
2. Everyone Negotiates—Communication as a Fundamental Skill
[07:06] - [08:43]
- Negotiation is part of daily life, not just law enforcement.
- Communication often fails not in hostile moments, but when connections break down due to a lack of understanding. Desmond: “All communication in a lot of ways is a negotiation... For me to come in there and try to inject just my thoughts... you really start to lose the connection.” [09:09]
3. The “Headspace” Framework—Meeting Others Where They Are
[10:11] - [14:55]
- The foundation of effective negotiation is understanding the other person’s perspective and emotional state.
- Active listening, not premature action, is critical. Desmond: “It is definitely about listening... where are they coming from? Are they coming from a place of emotion?” [12:17]
- Silence is a powerful communicative tool, allowing for reflection and deeper connection.
- Applying these ideas to coaching: Don: “You meet them in their headspace... That’s why you’re gifted in terms of what you do.” [13:57]
4. The Four Archetypes of Communication—Animal Behavior Wheel
[14:55] - [20:56]
- Based on research by Dr. Lawrence and Emily Allison, four behavioral archetypes are explained:
- T. Rex: Direct, frank; good (constructively assertive), bad (aggressive).
- Lion: Leader; good (guiding), bad (authoritarian).
- Mouse: Humble or detached; good (open to guidance), bad (insecure/shrinking).
- Monkey: Conversationally engaging; good (friendly collaborator), bad (inauthentic, opportunistic).
- The most effective communicators can tag and adjust their communication style to fit the archetype in front of them. Desmond: “The best operators or the best communicators... are the most versatile.” [19:36]
5. Self-Awareness & Empathy
[22:40] - [26:36]
- Knowing yourself is foundational to effective communication. Desmond: “We look at naive realism—you think you see the world objectively... if I don't really understand myself that well, then how am I going to come in and do a really good communication with you?” [22:57]
- Real empathy is not projecting your experience or saying “I understand,” but asking genuinely curious, open-ended questions. Desmond: “Empathy… it really is about asking really good questions. It's hard to do.” [25:34]
6. The Myth of Perfect Results—Not Every Conversation is “Fixable”
[22:40] - [26:36]
- Even with all the right tools, some negotiations or communications just won’t succeed, and being able to walk away with integrity is vital. Desmond: “There's no magic bullet... The best way to approach that is to truly try to understand.” [22:40]
7. The Value of Experience—Learning by Doing
[27:52] - [31:49]
- Early in his career, Desmond was nervous and made mistakes; the greatest growth came from experience, not theory.
- Polygraph work, international fieldwork, and high-stakes interviews built his communication resilience.
8. Manipulation vs. Influence
[36:14] - [38:55]
- Manipulation: About “winning” for yourself, regardless of impact on others.
- Influence: Mutually beneficial; seeks to move conversations forward for both parties. Desmond: “Manipulation, you make it about you… influence is, it's best for both of us.” [36:25]
- If you see someone experiencing emotion, respectfully acknowledge it (“It seems as though...”) instead of ignoring or labeling it with “I think.”
9. Common Empathy Pitfall—Don’t “Rob” Others of Their Moment
[39:22] - [42:57]
- Comparing your own experience to someone’s pain (e.g., “I went through the same thing...”) often feels invalidating. Desmond: “Never tell somebody else you understand, because in truth, you really don't.” [40:29]
- Better to say, “I’ve had something similar, but I’d really like to understand how you’re experiencing this.”
10. Personal Resilience Story—From Health Challenge to Fitness
[45:24] - [53:33]
- Desmond describes growing up sickly, being diagnosed at 18 with a serious heart defect (Epstein's anomaly), and undergoing open-heart surgery.
- Fitness became both a necessity and an identity, despite repeated setbacks (rejected by the Air Force due to his heart). Desmond: “Fitness became an identity for me, because it was the only thing that allowed me to pursue the career that I had.” [51:46]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On the most gifted communicators:
“The best operators... are the most versatile when it comes to what is in front of me at this moment.” — Desmond O’Neal [19:36] -
On empathy and validation:
“Never tell somebody else you understand, because in truth, you really don't.” — Desmond O’Neal [40:29] -
On experience vs. theory:
“Experience equity really matters. There is a huge difference between what theory tells you and what I know.” — Desmond O'Neal [28:13] -
On manipulation vs. influence:
“Manipulation, you make it about you... Influence is, it's best for both of us.” — Desmond O’Neal [36:25] -
On communication and interpretation:
“The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place.” (George Bernard Shaw, quoted by Desmond) [75:40]
Q&A with Listener Olivia (Practical De-Escalation Strategies)
[55:20] - [62:54]
- Olivia (nursing student): How to de-escalate conflict, discern what others need, and maintain self-protection in high-stress workplace situations?
- Desmond’s advice:
- Give people space when they show emotion; don’t feel the need to instantly “fix” their anger or hurt.
- Use open-ended statements: “It sounds like you’re very angry about this. I’d like to understand why.”
- Always follow through on promises; don’t make false commitments.
- Not everyone can be reasoned with—know your own limits, act with integrity, and don’t try to “fix” everyone. Move on if necessary. Desmond: “You do the best you can with the information you have and then you move on and you maintain your integrity.” [60:12]
Case Study Highlight: 40-Hour Interview in the Philip Garrido Case
[63:01] - [72:47]
- Desmond recounts his most memorable interrogation: interviewing convicted kidnapper/rapist Philip Garrido to determine his involvement in a “cold case.”
- Spent ~40 hours building rapport, primarily using the “mouse” archetype—listening, asking open questions, with genuine curiosity.
- Ultimately concluded that Garrido was not responsible; follow-up investigation found the real perpetrator, bringing closure to the victim’s family. Desmond: “I spent about 40 hours with him... and every day he showed back up. And Thursday came around… my goal was to understand if he was in a time and place in 1988, you know, where he would have kidnapped and killed this young girl... I didn’t feel that he had killed this girl.” [68:03]
Language, Culture, and Communication Abroad
[72:47] - [76:44]
- 90% of Desmond’s international interviews involved interpreters.
- Success hinges on interpreters conveying not just words, but nuances, emotion, and context.
- Any lack of detail from the interpreter may break the investigative process altogether. Desmond: “It's the little things people say or don't say that are going to cause the conversation to go in a different direction.” [73:27]
Final Thoughts and Takeaways
- Versatility and self-awareness are critical in high-stakes communication and negotiation.
- Active listening—with patience and a genuine desire to understand—unlocks connection even in the most challenging scenarios.
- Manipulation is not influence; aim for mutually beneficial outcomes whenever possible.
- Empathy is not about matching experience but about creating space for the other’s unique story.
- Experience trumps theory—there is no substitute for learning “in the room,” through trial, failure, and self-reflection.
- No magic bullet: Even with the best tools, not every conversation will lead to resolution, but integrity remains paramount.
Episode Navigation
| Segment | Topic | |-----------------------------------------|--------------------------------------------| | 05:01 - 10:01 | Desmond's background and philosophy | | 10:01 - 14:55 | The art of listening and meeting headspace | | 14:55 - 20:56 | Four archetypes of communication | | 22:40 - 26:36 | Empathy, self-awareness, not always fixable| | 27:52 - 31:49 | The value of experience and early mistakes | | 36:14 - 38:55 | Manipulation vs. influence | | 39:22 - 42:57 | Emotional validation, the empathy pitfall | | 45:24 - 53:33 | Fitness, health struggles, and resilience | | 55:20 - 62:54 | Q&A with Olivia, de-escalation strategies | | 63:01 - 72:47 | Most memorable interrogation | | 72:47 - 76:44 | Language, interpreters, miscommunication |
Stronger delivers another deeply practical episode, expanding the definition of strength by exploring how to “get stronger at negotiating”—no matter the setting. Desmond O’Neill’s stories and frameworks offer timeless lessons in listening, empathy, and human connection.