← Stronger with Don Saladino
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The world is full of tours.
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But you don't choose a Toyota truck to follow the beaten path. You choose it to find the places in between the detours where each adventure pulls you toward the next. And wrong turns turn out right. So why would you ever take a tour when you could take a detour? Toyota trucks.
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This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast. Smart move. Being financially savvy. Smart move. Another smart move. Having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts, and savings and eligibility vary by state.
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B
Hey, guys. Welcome back to another episode of Stronger. I'm so excited that I just interviewed Dr. Sue Varma, who's a psychiatrist and the author of Practical Optimism. This is a must read, by the way. Sue goes in everything from mindset to, you know, the four M's and those four M she defines as movement, mindfulness, meaningful engagement, and mastery. She literally ran a master class on mindset. New Year's resolutions, developing good habits, how to drop bad habits. This was literally a mindset masterclass. I'm still smiling right now. I felt like we could have went on for a few hours, but we went on for a little over an hour and. And that wasn't even enough. So I know sue will be another guest at a specific point. I. I didn't want to let her go. So I'm so excited for you to listen to this episode and I hope you enj. All right, guys. First off, I have to thank my sponsors, one of them right now being Mito Pure. Thank you guys for. For just being a loyal sponsor of ours. Probably. I think it was our first one. Was our first sponsor. Yeah, I think it was. I'm saying it was. So they have a few different products. They have Mitopure, which is a urolithin, a product, which is why I am in my 60s and I look like I'm in my early 40s. So I've been taking this product for a while. My skin, my lines, my energy level, my mitochondrial function is fantastic. And this is one of those supplements. I am not. I like supplements, but you got to understand, I really value the importance of nutrition and sleep. Mito Pure, their urolith and a supplement. I take four capsules a day. That's 1,000 milligrams. I take it religiously and I really can't travel without it now because I have seen benefits come from this. With probably about three to six months. I just started feeling like my skin was glowing a little bit more. I was feeling a bit younger. I was okay. I'm not 60, I'm 48 cats out of the bag now. They also have these gummies that are delicious and they also have a powder, which is fantastic as well, if you're into powder. So that's it, guys. Mitopure again. Thank you again, Timeline. Thank you. And timeline is offering 20% off your first order of Mitopure. Go to timeline.com backslash stronger. That's t I m e l I n e dot com stronger. I can't believe I actually had to read how to spell timeline. I did, though. Thanks, guys. All right, so, Dr. Sue Varma, you have no idea how excited I am right now for. For so many reasons. One, you're brilliant. Your newer book, Practical Optimism.
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Thank you.
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Mindset, the whole mindset piece to life. I think it's one of those overlooked areas, especially in my industry. It's always been about training and nutrition and supplementation. And I'm like, if your mind's not right.
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Yes.
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What are we doing? It's. You know, there's so many ways we can go with this conversation. We have the New Year's coming around and resolutions and people, they're going to come back in and repeat the same stuff that they've done year after year and they've been unsuccessful with. But where I really want to start this conversation is discussing optimism versus pessimism versus realism. Because I almost feel like in my head there's like this personality type, maybe things we can develop, maybe we're born with. But I would really love you to kind of kick this off and, and give us a little bit of an education on that and then we'll run.
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A
Absolutely. And Don, thank you so much for having me. I mean, I have so much respect for the work you do and you wear a million different hats. I don't know how you do it.
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B
All, but thank you.
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And you make it look easy.
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B
Thank you. I appreciate you so much.
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Thank you. So optimism really just is, simply put, looking at the glass as half full as opposed to half empty, and the outcome expectations, like things are gonna work out. The belief that things can work out, that's all it is. And I think a lot of times people say, I don't know, it sounds a little woo woo, it's not very scientific. And I say, listen, I it right, like Telling someone just look on the bright side without understanding the depths of what they've been through. That is not optimism. That's toxic positivity. Right? So optimism is a natural tendency to see things as like, things are going to work out. Right. But it's only natural for a small portion of people. Right? So there is this genetic component that you alluded to. Like, are we born with it? Is this natural? And only 25% of us are born jumping out of bed being like, yay, it's going to work out.
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B
Yeah.
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You mentioned that you fall into that.
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B
Yeah, I'm definitely. I'm going to show your glass. You just. By the way, this is going to sit on my desk. Dr. Varma sent me a half full, half empty line. And on the other side, just showing this, we have optimist and pessimist. But this is different than manifesting, right? I mean, being optimistic and manifesting, I mean, is there some carryover there?
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A
I do think so. Like, in my mind, like, manifesting is like you're putting ideas into the world. And that is a big part of optimism, I think. But for like. Like a very simple definition is like, people who are born naturally in every aspect of their life, if they manifest it, it's because they carry this belief that good things can happen. But here's the thing, I go one step further, and that's where the practical part of it comes in, is like, if optimists are successful in life, right, it's because they actually take the steps to ensure that those things happen. Right? So if optimism is the general belief that good things are gonna happen, like pessimism, and this is based on the work of Dr. Martin Seligman, positive psychology. There are three Ps of pessimism. And I've added a fourth one. It's a general belief that, like, no, things are not going to work out in my favor. Why? Because the bad things are my fault. So pessimists take things personally. They think that bad things are pervasive in every aspect of their life. If this job stuff didn't work out, then my love life is also going to suck and I'm a horrible person. And then they think it's permanent. And then I've added a fourth one, is that they become paralyzed. So as a result of all of this negative thinking. Right. And so, but here's the thing, Don, believe it or not, is that pessimism in small doses is actually really healthy.
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B
So you just stole my question. I was like, well, is there anything positive out total pessimistic it is, right?
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So pessimists are actually more thorough in their analysis. They do their research, they do their due diligence. They're accurate in their assessments of things. The problem is they get mired in all of the research. So I'll give you an example. Like, I had a patient who's like, came to me week after week and he's like, I have a cracked phone. And, like, I can't return your messages and I know I need to do something about it. And I've been doing a lot of research and there are too many phones out there and I don't know what to do. So, like, analysis paralysis, right?
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B
Get the same phone.
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Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, until you figure it out. Yeah. No, but see, that's the thing. That's the practical optimist. The practical optimist would say, listen, I need a phone, so I'm going to get one. And I talk about this in my book. There's an idea of people who are satisficers. Good is good enough, right? I need a phone. I went to the Apple Store or wherever, and I'm just going to replace it, right? Because I need it. Like, functionality versus maximizers are like, oh, my God, but there's 17 different iPhones. And which ones? Or like this operating system or this version. So they get mired in all the homework and the research that they never actually asked. And so what you want is to marry a little bit of that healthy cynicism, healthy skepticism with action.
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B
Because that cynicism is gonna. In healthy dosages, it is gonna push you a bit, right? It is gonna allow you to strive for more. I mean, in a way, it's critiquing yourself, right?
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A
Yes, exactly. Critiquing yourself. And also a little bit of a guardrails, you know, And I always say, like, you need both. Like, optimists build the planes and pessimists build the parachutes, right? And we need both.
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B
That's really cool. Yeah.
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And so if you want. They say, like, if you want a job done, like, if you want accuracy, go pessimist. You want the job done, go to.
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The optimist, just buy the most expensive phone. Guys, I just. I always spend too much money on this stuff. Buy the one with all the bells and whistles that you don't need. Make the same mistake that I make. All right, so that was optimism versus pessimism.
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Yes.
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B
Realism, though. That's. That's like. Talk to me about that.
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Yeah. So can I read you a quote that Please.
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B
Yeah, I would love that. Oh my God.
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Yeah, I quoted. Okay. The pessimist complains about the wind. The optimist expects it to change. The realist, AKA practical optimist, adjusts the sails. Right? So you can complain about the wind. That's the pessimist. The optimist expects it to change. The optimist is like, oh, somebody will change it for me. And then who's actually doing the work? That's the realist, or in this case, the practical optimist. Right. They're actually making the effort. So to me, practical optimism, it's not so. I believe in optimism so strongly. Optimism is the secret to longevity. It is a mindset. Optimists live longer. They live 10 to 15% longer. And not just longer, but longer in good health. They have what's called health span, right? An exceptional longevity, which is you're living well into your 80s because most of us, women especially, are living the last decade of life in poor health. Optimists are five to six times more engaged at work. They're six times less likely to have burnout, 30% less likely to have strokes, 30% less likely to have heart attacks, less depression, less anxiety, more friends, longer and stronger friendships and relationships. So there's a million positive things I'm going to tell you about optimism. The problem is that at the end of the day, all optimism is, is a mindset, an important mindset, but it's a mindset. Practical optimism is not just a mindset, it's a skill set. It's an action set, it's a tool set. And it helps you go from having positive outlooks in life to, to positive outcomes because it involves action.
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B
When did you write this book?
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Oh my God, when did I like write it? It was many, many years.
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B
So this is, this is, in a way, this is like your life's work.
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It's my life's work. It was like 20 years of work and, and what I wanted to do was basically distill all of the best practices that like I've been a clinician for two decades. I've been studying psychology since like the mid-90s. Like started as a pre med student and psychology major. I've worked with thousands of people in from all different walks of life. And my first big role after residency was I was the medical director of the 911 Mental Health Program. And I worked with civilians and first responders and anyone who was living, you know, pretty much like all of us were affected. Like didn't matter where you were in the country or where you were in.
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B
The world, everyone was affected by that. Where were you when 911 happened?
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A
So I was a med student in a New York City hospital. And I remember being in a patient's room and, like, seeing the plane crash, the first one, you know, into the towers, and I was like, oh, my God. And we heard over the loudspeaker, like, discharge, discharge, discharge. And we were told to discharge anybody who could go home to be able to be able to create room for people. And guess what? Nobody showed up because the death toll was so high. And so I got training, and basically I was like, you know, one day, like, I want to be of service. And after I finished med school, I went into residency and I kept getting training for trauma, and this new program had started to treat 911 survivors. Living their cleaning, rescue, recovery people. Wall street, like anyone you can imagine. So I just got really fascinated about resilience. But I felt like resilience was like, kind of only one part of the story. So resilience is bouncing back from adversity. But I wanted to help people thrive in the face of it and on, like, so much of my career. Like, the Western medicine is about pathology, right. You don't go to see a doctor, especially psychiatrists, if you're. Well, you only see them when the other shoe drops. And I was like, how do we get people skills so that we don't have to wait until the other shoe drops? Right. That whole concept of prevention in mental health does not exist. And I remember, like, one of my mentors kind of laughed at the concept. He's like, yeah, that's a nice idea. Yeah, you keep doing that. And I'm like, I will. You know, and this was someone who I admire, respect, great human being, but, like, it just wasn't a thing.
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B
When you say prevention, mentally, I think of, like, in my field, I think of injury prevention.
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A
Yes, right.
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B
It's. It's immediately we're thinking of, like, prehabilitation and doing things to make sure that the body's resilient. What do you mean by kind of this mental. I mean, you basically talk about mental preparation for. To be resilient.
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Yes, right.
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B
It's the same thing.
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Totally. So it's like, you know, optimists and pessimists are going to go through the same number of life challenges and adversities. The difference is the optimist gets knocked down 1700 times and they get back up again every single time. And the difference is because they are able to process their emotions. They believe that good things are possible. So they. They believe that whatever negative things are going through in their life, it's not permanent, it's not pervasive, it's not personal. And as a result, they don't become passive. So I was, like, really moved when you had shared with me. You're like, yep, I had the. What. What did you. What did you tell me?
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B
Oh, my God. I have 15. 15 years in a. In a gym, running, owning a gym. I mean, I almost missed 37 consecutive payrolls. I mean, there was the amount of money we had to raise. And from carnage shutting our power down to American Express shutting my card. I lost my credit card for three years. Like, I went through some tough stuff, but, you know, and I've told this story but before on here, for some reason in the back of my head, I'm like, it's going to be all right. Like, just keep. Stay focused. Keep pushing forward. You're going to figure it out. Looking back on it now, some of the most creative moments I've ever had in business was when my ass was against the wall. And I'm like, oh, my God, I gotta come up with 100 grand tomorrow or. Or I'm done. Like, this is. And that happened so many times. And now I look at it, it was. It was in the moment. I'm going home at night. Like, is this gonna get easier? And then now I'm like, it was one of the biggest blessings I've ever went through it.
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Really, because it led you to where you are right now. So that not giving up, that it taught me.
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It taught me, and it taught me even now when things. Because, listen, you're in. You're in a life where it's not going to be perfect. Like, you're going to be juggling and jumping through hoops and dealing with these obstacles. And anytime I face these things now, I'm like, all right, like, we've been here before.
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A
Yes. Yes. So that's one of the key things that optimists or practical optimists do. So I want to say to people that if you're not born with it, and if you're in that 25% only, and I'll explain that in a second about the genes, but that the rest of it can be learned. And you look. You're looking at your past, one could call it failure, but you're not. You're looking at it. You're. You're picking, cherry picking the good moments, and you're like, no, they weren't failures. There were so many learning moments. And you're like, I will use those past masteries to inform future decisions, right? So, like, when I was delivering, I, like, I have two kids I was mentioning. And like, I was. I was so scared the first time. I was like, I have no idea what to expect. And I'm trying to do this all, quote, natural birth and have all this, you know. And I'm like, but I'm. But it's going to be so much pain without medications. How the hell am I going to do it? And I hired a doula. And she was like, sue, what was the hardest thing you've done in your life? I'm like, I don't know, like, past organic chemistry.
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B
Oh, my God.
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She's like, how did you do it? And then I told her my whole story, that There was like 600 kids in this organic chemistry class. And it was like the one thing that was known to fit. Like, you were going to. It was. It was like, what weeded you out? Like, and we had 10,000 people that started as pre med students, and only, like, I think 100 ended up applying it.
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B
That was hell week for the Navy seals. You can refer to it as that. That's the thing that the seals had to go through where they all drop. Yeah.
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A
Yeah.
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B
That was your whole week?
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A
That was my whole week. Totally. That's such a great way to put it. And my teacher was like, the professor, he was just not a nice person. And he's like, women don't have visual spatial ability and they can't do organic chemistry. And no girl has ever gotten an A in my class in 30 years. And I was like, dude, I need to get an A in this class. Like, I want to be a doctor. Like, this can't be what stops me, right? And I remember the first exam getting a 50, and I've never gotten a 50 in my life. I work my ass off, right? And we just, like, they were not good teachers. And I remember myself and another student, we went to go talk to him, he literally reamed us out. Like, my friend ended up leaving crying. We're like, listen, you gotta. You gotta teach. Like, this isn't. This is no way to teach.
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B
How do you respond to that? I'm just curious when you. When you're going to a professor being like, yeah, sorry, you're not great at what you do. Like, I couldn't imagine. He was like, oh, well, let's talk about this.
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A
Yeah, I know. Like we said in a very, like, diplomatic way, like, the test has to reflect, like, the teach like, what we're learning in class. And it didn't. It was like hieroglyphics. I'm like, what is this? So he, even though he was like, super rude, he took it to heart. And then the next exam, like, it was more reflective. And we went. I went from a fifty to like ninety something, hundred something. So my point is, myself and my friend ended up being the first people who ever got an a in his 30 years. Like, and then we ended up teaching.
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B
What did you change differently? Because he didn't. I know he didn't change. Yeah, I mean, so you had to make the adjustment.
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A
Totally. That's such a. That's such a good way. Like, I basically, like, doubled down, triple down. We went to every. Every help class tutoring session. Like, just did everything we could above. And like, now they have all these, you know, computer programs. We had nothing. Right? We're just literally getting as many textbooks, doing a million problems. And I ended up falling in love with the subject and ended up teaching it and then ended up helping a whole group of people who never would have become doctors because of this one stupid class, like, fall in love with it too. Because I'm like, this makes sense. You have a bunch of different pieces in the. It's like a puzzle bunch of pieces in the beginning. You have an end product. And they're like, how do we go from this finished product? It's like life, right? Like, how do you solve a problem given a couple of small key things in the beginning? And then like. Like a house, like an architect would build a house, but, like going backwards. And then I ended up teaching it for years. And this was this thing that was so intimidating and formidable. So coming back to the doula, she's like, okay, that I want you to hold on to that feeling of mastery. So if you can do something hard, you know, and don't say like, I can't do it. You're already doing it, right? You've gone through nine months of pregnancy. I mean, I'm just picking this example. Other people are probably like, that's no big deal. But for me, it was a big deal. I didn't know what.
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B
Nine months of prag. I don't know how you guys do it. I complain when I wake up and I'm like. I'm like, oh, God, like, I feel a little flappy today. Or I'm like, what is going on? I mean, I. It's so much admiration. It's incredible. But this. But this professor that you were talking about, I want to get back to him.
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Yeah.
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Does he become one of the more influential people in your life now, even though you didn't like, this person? Is this a person where maybe if you breeze through it, do you not start teaching? Do you not have a respect for the subject that you gained? And there's almost these stripes that you earn from being the first, you know, group to get an A in this class? Like, is he. Did he actually do you a favor is what I'm asking you.
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A
You know, it's interesting. Like, at the time, it didn't feel like it because it's like, this is so challenging. Like, why did you have to make it even more so? Because I think a lot of girls walk away with this idea of, I'm just not good at math. I know so many people. I know patients that I work with. I work with, like, people throughout the life cycle, college and above, and they're just like, oh, I'm not a math person. That's bullshit. I don't believe that at all. I don't believe that. You're not a math person. You're not a science person. If someone were to take the time with you and sit down and be like, do you know how exciting this field is? Right? Like, when you talk to a kid, you're like, oh, my God. Like, I mean, this is, like, a dorky thing to say, but, like, I feel like I started teaching my kids for fun organic chemistry when they were, like, in fifth grade. One day I come home, my son's watching YouTube, and I was about to get mad. I'm like. I said no screen time. And he's, like, solving problems. He was, like, 10 years old. And I'm like, I don't understand. He's like, mom, I don't understand why you make such a big deal. This was not a hard science at all. Like, I can figure it out. Like, I'm 10, and I'm like, okay, that's not normal. But I think, like, the excitement that I shared around it and how I made it accessible, I'm like, this is so fun. So I feel like we. We buy, like, whatever anybody's selling. So if this guy's telling me girls can't do it, okay, sure. Like, I could have believed it, but because my goal was so strong, like, at that end. Goal of, like, I grew up. Like, I grew up. My dad's a psychiatrist, and I remember going with him to the grocery store, and people would say, like, your dad changed my life. And, you know, he worked with people in addiction and recovery. He was also a child psychiatrist. And I was like, I don't know what this man does, but it seems like magic and I want to do that thing. And so I grew up with this idea of, like, service and wanting to help people and change their lives. And I was fascinated by science. And I putting all these things together, I was like, I can't let this man and his lack of belief in me like, be what's in my way. But if I wasn't so gung ho, I have to be a doctor, I would have let it influence and I would, I would, I would have believed it. So that's the thing. I feel like these self limiting beliefs, whether they're imposed by other people, because I easily could have said, I got a 50, I suck. This is not for me. And then I wouldn't be here with you today.
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B
100%. This podcast would not be possible if it weren't for our sponsors. And I'd like to thank Masterclass for sponsoring this episode. And with Masterclass, you can learn from the best to become your best. There's nothing like gaining a fresh perspective from experts who've seen it all and have the wisdom to prove it. Including. Let's cover these. We got Joanna Gaines. Okay. One of my friends, and she is a wizard in the home improvement space. And what it really opened my eyes to were the different styles of homes, how she approaches a different type of space. I personally know Joe, but I see her in a training environment and I see them back in Waco, Texas. But to see how she really approaches home, builds, improvements, renovations, call it what you want, it's such an art. And to be able to incorporate and take some of that stuff into maybe things I want to do to my home, I think makes it really special and incredibly valuable. There's also so many other types of classes you can take. I saw one recently on the art of negotiation. There's also ones on gut health, how to improve your skin. I mean, these are all things that, you know, these are right in my wheelhouse. I love this. So I think when you have access to an expert like that and you can dive into areas that you're heavily interested in, or maybe there are areas that you never thought you were interested in, it really opens your eyes to certain things. So with plans starting at $10 a month, billed annually, you get unlimited access to over 200 classes taught by the world's best business leaders, writers, chefs, and more. That's value. I like it. And with Masterclass, you get thousands of bite sized lessons across 13 categories like skincare one I mentioned earlier, that can fit into even the busiest schedule. So right now our listeners get an additional 15% off. I love it. Any annual membership@masterclass.com stronger that's 15% off@masterclass.com stronger again. Masterclass.com stronger thanks again, everyone. Right now I want to thank Vuori. I tried Vuori a few years ago, started diving into their gear. I was wearing their workout shorts because I have more of an athletic build. And now they have joggers, they have zip ups, they have a whole line of stuff that I really feel like kind of falls into a little bit more of this athleisure line where, you know, you can wear it to the gym, but you could wear it out for, you know, a casual brunch or to go to the store and you actually feel fashionable. So for our listeners, they're offering 20% off your first purchase. Pretty significant. Not only will you receive 20% off your first purchase, but enjoy free shipping on any US orders over $75 and free returns. Get yourself some of the most comfortable and versatile clothing on the planet@vuori.com stronger that's V U O R I.com stronger exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. Right now I want to thank Gusto. All right, so Gusto is an online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses. It's an all in one remote, friendly and incredibly easy to use so you can pay, hire onboard and support your team from anywhere. It's what we pay you using.
- [24:08]
A
Right?
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B
Sierra gets paid using Gusto. So you know, I am really talking about this. I use it. This is the real thing. I love it. I want to shout out the small business owners out there. You wear a million hats and still show up for your team. But Gusto can help take some of that load off, especially when it comes to payroll, benefits and compliance. Listen, I started as a trainer and if it wasn't for a software program like Gusto, I don't know what I would do because I'm getting pulled in a million different directions every single day. And I need simplicity and I need reliability. So Gusto, you've been incredible with that. Thank you. Gusto is trusted by over 400,000 small businesses and it could be yours too. Try gusto today@gusto.com stronger and get three months free when you run your first payroll. What do you have to lose? That's three months of free payroll at gusto.com stronger that's G-S-T O dot com. Stronger consistency to me feels like something that you can develop, but it's also, I think it's a superpower. I really think if you can develop a level of consistency and consistency in what? Consistent sleep, you know, having people that you're consistently in love with or happy with. The consistency to want to wake up every day and you know, the glass is half full. This level of consistency is something I find many people struggle with.
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A
Yes, yes.
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B
What is your opinion? What have you put together through all your years of practice? Why is it some people have it, some people don't? And if you want to develop it, I believe consistency can be taught totally.
- [25:52]
A
Totally. And you know, it first starts out with the belief. Like I think it really helps when somebody says, I believe in you, you can do it. Right. Sometimes that person has to be you. Right. Like you have to be able to envision that this person, this version of yourself is possible. And it's an identity. Right? So when we talk about habits and I've dedicated a whole chapter, the last chapter, practicing healthy habits and is how good habits are formed, right? So consistency is one of them. Lowering the entry barrier, not making it so difficult. So if a person says, you know, somebody invited me to a 5am hot yoga class and like I'm gonna do that and they sign up for it. I'm like, and then they, then they end up not going one day, two days, three days, they just signed up for one month long membership. I would say to them, let's break this down, you know, like, first of all, do you like getting up at 4am to make that 5am class? And they're like, no, I'm not a morning person person. I'm like, okay, do you like yoga? I hate it. What about hot yoga? Hate it even more. I'm like, okay, what are we doing here?
- [26:51]
B
We're over three. I mean it makes sense, right?
- [26:53]
A
And so people set these, like really initially, what may seem like high and unrealistic goals, but that are not matched for them, right? It's like if you don't like waking up in the morning and doing hot yoga, you will not go to that class. Please do not sign up for that. That is not what fitness for you, if that's what we're talking about, looks like, like what is feasible, what is realistic, what, what, what is simple and easy to do? Even if it is like, I don't know, exercise, snacking. It's going to be the 15 minutes, me going every elevator, like we know, like the neat, you know, like the Non exercise activity.
- [27:23]
B
Thermogenesis.
- [27:24]
A
Yeah. Like, if you can work that in, like, that is so much more important than the one hour in the gym. But if you can do both, even better. So, like the low hanging fruit, are you in. In. In an effort to pursue something grand? Like, I think that's the problem, to be honest with you, that in our society, in our culture is that we think that things have to be big and grand.
- [27:42]
B
Well, we're also people compare themselves to. Look at how she looks, look at how he looks. Look at why they've become successful.
- [27:49]
A
Yeah.
- [27:49]
B
They get up at 3am every day, which is, by the way, drives me crazy. Like, suddenly, why are we, why have we been glorifying like, oh, you know, sorry to throw him under the bus, but Mark Wahlberg wakes up at 2am to get a workout and I'm like, why would you do that?
- [28:02]
A
Yeah, totally, totally. That's.
- [28:03]
B
I had to wake up at 3am for like, like six years to go to work and it was miserable. It was like I felt I did not feel good. And I don't recommend people doing that. So. But I think that's part of the problem is that you affiliate success with this person.
- [28:17]
A
Yes.
- [28:18]
B
Maybe you're seeing them on social media. Maybe you're hearing a story and you're like, well, I got to do that and I don't want to do it.
- [28:22]
A
Totally, totally. And like, there's a, there's this phrase that I love. It says, don't compare your in your insides to other people's outsides because what you're seeing is the finished product. But you don't know all of the things that went into them. And maybe they are like, if you. This is what I see. If somebody wakes up by choice. Right. At 3am every morning, on some level they like it and it's feasible for them. Right. And if you're like, I am just not that person, then that's not how your activity is going to be built in your day. So consistency to me is about do something that is fun, that is accessible, that is achievable fun. See, people don't equate doing hard things with being fun. But again, that's the problem. And what I love is one way to lower the entry barrier is to lower your perception of how difficult something is. So I'll give you an example. When they found that if you look, if they said, I want you to do this hike, I want you to climb this incline, and a person by themselves might look at it and they say that Looks pretty steep to me. I don't know if I can do it or. I don't know, it looks quite steep. When that person was allowed to bring in a friend and they were asked, tell me the perception, all of a sudden, their perception of how hard it is changes. So if you're with a friend, you're gonna work out harder, longer, stronger. You're gonna think it's more realistic and achievable, and it's more doable and it's more fun. So if you're like, I have a very hard time, sign up with a class with somebody, with your partner. And if not, I always say to people, like, when. When I get asked, like, how can I socialize more? I'm like, that exercise class that you're going to Anyway, show up 10 minutes earlier and try to talk to people, right? Like, make eye contact, smile. When you have a friend in the class, or even if it's the teacher, or like the programs that you do, like, that enthusiasm that you're sharing, that community, that sense of community is really important. So figure out what's going to get you there, right? Is it the fun? Is it. Is it affordable? What, you know, line up all. That's when the stars align. That's when consistency happens.
- [30:13]
B
You've been. You've been public speaking for a while, I take it. I've been doing it now for probably close to 15 years. And I remember, I never. I never forget the first couple times you're up there, not nervous, but excited, the heart rate's elevated, and you're sitting there and you're like, oh, my God. Like, this is. This is. This is crazy. I remember I had advice early on from one of my mentors who said, when get to the room early and as people are coming in, greet them, walk over, shake their hand, ask them where they're. Where they're from.
- [30:41]
A
Wow.
- [30:41]
B
And just have a bit. And it was such a powerful thing for me because I found the first couple times I went in, I was excited, nervous, call it what you want. But as I'm going around shaking people's hand and looking in their eye and really kind of humanizing the entire situation, I just felt this, like, level of being relaxed. And it was just this level of practice over and over and over that allowed me to have some confidence going in. So these things aren't, like, you're not born with this. You watch you public speak, you're like, oh, my God, this woman's amazing. She's, you know, she's fantastic. She seems so confident. She's great on TV. Like, these things. I'm sure you look at yourself 10, 15, 20 years ago, and you're like, oh, man, I said this word too much. Or I did this too much. Or maybe I was something.
- [31:23]
A
Totally right. Totally. You know, I'm so glad that you brought that up, because I was actually really, really shy as a kid. And so. This is not something. You're getting exclusive content here, Don. This is not something I talk about.
- [31:34]
B
I'm honored.
- [31:35]
A
Thank you.
- [31:35]
B
I appreciate it.
- [31:36]
A
So, okay. When I was 12 years old, I. This is so interesting that this kind of, like, sparked my desire to want to write a book. So I was 12 years old, and I remember, like, my parents would always drag me to conferences with them. Right. So my dad's a psychiatrist, and we. I grew up going to the meetings for the American Psychiatry Association. He would speak a lot. My mom would also public speak, but I would go to conferences and not know anybody. So I'm, like, hanging out and, like, there's sometimes nobody my age, and sometimes there are people. But my barrier was I could never go up to a random person and just say, hi, my name is Sue. How are you? Right. But I was constantly put in situations where I'm around new people and I had friends, and I was super social with that group of friends. But my barrier was I want to be able to do two things. One is introduce myself to somebody that I don't know, because my dad was always like, come over here. There's a girl your age. I'm like, this is so cringey.
- [32:26]
B
Oh, my God, don't do this, don't do that.
- [32:27]
A
I know. And I'm like. He's like, no, no, you're sitting in the corner. And I'm like, no, just please stop. And I was like, this has to be the year that I'm not gonna rely on my dad to introduce me to, like, new random people that I don't really want to talk to, but I have to, because I'm not, you know? And then I also started feeling like I've got stuff that I wanna say, you know? And, like, I didn't know what exactly I wanted to say, but I wanted to be able to say it if I wanted to. And so I got. This is so funny. Barnes and Noble's local mall, Roosevelt Field. Right, right. I was like, I got this book, Conquering Shyness, and I don't even remember what is in that book now, but I just remember that there was a book that changed my perception and Made things seem doable. Right? And basically, like, I don't even know what it said, but it probably said, go talk to people. Like, it's as simple as that, right?
- [33:11]
B
Like, and you should go reread it. Just. Yeah, you should just be like, what was all the hype about it? I don't know.
- [33:16]
A
And I just. And it was just this idea of, oh, my God, a book can. Can change the way I do things. So I started practicing and, like, just then going up to people and like, something as simple as introducing yourself to a stranger. And I did more of it and just got in the habit. And then that led me to join, like, improv theater when I was in high school. And, like, we would go to schools and perform. And it was meant to be a springboard for conversation about mental health and, like, HIV and like, you know, teen pregnancy and all sorts of things. And then that got my interest, like, in taking on more leadership roles. So I went from like a super shy person to forcing myself to talk to people and be in uncomfortable situations a million times. And that led me to be able to be in this career and do the work that I do. But had I not read the book? And also that book then told me, like, wow, something changed your life. You. You must do the same for others, right? Like, pay it forward. Because I remember being intrigued by the self help section, the whole self help section. I'm like, oh, my God, there's so much magic on these pages. And if you read this magic, you can change your life. So I was like, one day, I want to pay it forward. I want to be that book that somebody reads and says, because of you, I now have this, this, and this.
- [34:26]
B
We're coming into a time of year right now. New Year's rolls around. People face the exact same problems every year. I almost feel like people throw the same goals every year and they take the exact same approach. And I'm like, interesting. And I've had some friends that have mentioned goals, goals to me, and I'm like, it's been your goal the last five years. Yeah, let's, you know, let's. Let's talk about this a little bit. I don't make a joke out of it because obviously they're struggling with it and I want to be sensitive. But if you're coming in with the same exact approach and it's not working.
- [34:54]
A
Yes.
- [34:55]
B
Why are we taking the same approach? Why do we feel like that coming into January 1st and trying to set up this level of perfection? I love this term micro Momentum. Do you know Evie Pompous? Yes, Evie Pompous, the government Secret Service agent. She's. I was just on the phone with her. She's like I said sister to me. Amazing and phenomenal human being. But she actually heard a lot of what I'm doing and she's like, that's micro momentum. And I'm like, what's micro momentum? And she gave me this term, so I throw it around. I sound smart all the time.
- [35:21]
A
I love it.
- [35:22]
B
But it's just, it's the idea to give someone a small tangible task that's super easy.
- [35:28]
A
Yes.
- [35:28]
B
And it's a win. And then what's the next step? And it's the next step yet come January 1st, we're going to overload ourselves with, I'm going to quit drinking and I'm going to stop eating dessert and I'm going to stop eating pizza and I'm going to work out seven days a week. And it's like the second you fail at that, you will.
- [35:42]
A
Yes.
- [35:42]
B
Maybe it's. We shouldn't look at it as a failure. That whole mind shift happens and then we're wait until the following year.
- [35:48]
A
Yes. You know, a couple of things. One is that you're making me think of like there, there was a book by Dale Carnegie how, How to Stop worrying and Stop living. Now all of us know the how to win friends and influence people. But what I love in this book, and it was meant for anxiety, but you can really look at it as, as even with habits, he said live in day tight compartments. So like think of every 24 hours as a Ziploc bag and just think of like, whatever. If you screw up, that Ziploc bag is gone. Throw it away.
- [36:19]
B
Yeah, it's done. Move on to the next day.
- [36:20]
A
Exactly. So you reset. Like if you look at it as, it's fine. January 1st, it didn't happen. January 7th, it didn't happen. But January 8th it happened. Didn't happen on the 9th, but it happened on the 10th, didn't happen on the 11th and 12th, but 13. And to me it's like that's where the satisficer and the maximizers come in. The satisficers are like, good is good enough. Right. But when you're aiming for perfection, and I think there's something called maladaptive perfectionism where you're just so rigid and you're so hard on yourself. So I would say, you know, the definition, as they say, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results.
- [36:52]
B
Right.
- [36:53]
A
So what I would say is let this year we're talking about practical optimism. To me, it's a. It's a framework of how to achieve anything you want in life. Right? So it starts with having a vision. And I. This is like the first pillar. It's called purpose, where you have like a vision and intention and you have clarity. Right? And purpose is so many things. First of all, purpose doesn't have to be glamorous. Purpose doesn't have to be connected to your paycheck. Purpose doesn't have to be what's my capital P purpose in life? It can be, what's my purpose here today with you, in this conversation, in this room. Right.
- [37:26]
B
That's that ziplock bag that you're talking about.
- [37:28]
A
Yes, exactly. Like. Like if we want to call it micro purpose, right? Like, we'll put in a little Ziploc bag and what's my purpose today? And then, you know, the interesting thing is that people who have a strong sense of purpose in life are more likely to exercise. And people who exercise are more likely to have a strong sense of purpose. And people who have a strong sense of purpose are more likely to live longer. They follow them. They have 30% less strokes in the next eight years. They're more likely to live less heart attacks. And people who give back have a strong sense of purpose. But purpose is literally just intention, right. About anything. So if you're like, I want to do XYZ more of start out with that purpose. The last pillar is practicing healthy habits. It's the execution of your goals. Right. And I talk about how to automate them and streamline them and have a catalyst like a good friend and make it achievable, affordable, fun, all of that. But it's the execution and the pillars in between are all.
- [38:16]
B
Or you said there's eight of them, right?
- [38:18]
A
Yeah.
- [38:18]
B
Okay. Can you. Would you mind just kind of.
- [38:20]
A
Sure.
- [38:21]
B
Throwing those out?
- [38:21]
A
Yeah. So purpose is the first one, and the next one is processing your emotions. Right. So inevitably, when you want any goal that you want to achieve, Right. Your emotions may get in the way. You're like, I had a hard day. I'm really pissed off at my boss. The last thing I want to do is go home in the freezing cold, change my clothes, and then get back in the car or whatever it is. Right. I don't feel like going for a job. I'm miserable. I want to sit here in front of the TV and have my snacks and whatever it is. So there are going to be a whole bunch of things, life that gets in the way somewhere between purpose and practicing healthy habits. That's the last one, right? Those are the two pillars and I'm putting them as bookends. And in the middle are all the things that are going to help you, all the pillars that are going to help you one by one. It's kind of like, I guess a video game if you've got like a sword or something that you want to like. So processing emotions and I give people, first of all, don't suppress your emotions. You're going to get way too many problems. I talk about my own blind spots, how I'm going. You know, I start off the book by talking about a very personal story. My mom is diagnosed with stage three breast cancer. I'm working 100 hours a week as a resident, five different city hospitals, and I all of a sudden develop this like extreme leg weakness. Because I know what that call means when my mom says I have cancer. It's not just cancer. People may say, okay, breast cancer is very treatable. And it is, but she had underlying heart disease and so no doctor wanted to touch her. They're like, we treat her with chemo, it's going to put her into cardiac arrest. So we can't treat the cancer. So what's going to happen? So I'm going from hospital, hospital, my hospital, to her hospitals. And in the middle, all of a sudden my body starts to give out. So I always say to people, your body will express what your mind cannot. Don't suppress your emotions. Women who suppress their emotions are more likely to die. Higher mortality, even with men, especially anger, when it's suppressed more colds, cough, flu, infections. So I give people a four step plan that teaches you how to express your emotions in real time. And so when you. And like I said, the emotions might get in the way of you executing. Right. So don't suppress them. I call it, name it, tame it, claim it and reframe it. So name the antecedent. What, what is pissing you off? Is there any, anything that comes to mind we can use as an example?
- [40:31]
B
What's pissing me off now? There's always something that pisses me off.
- [40:35]
A
Or like some trigger or like.
- [40:38]
B
Yeah, I think I was expressing it a little bit earlier in our conversation there in. I don't want to sound like a crybaby here, but now my industry has really turned into marketing where I still want it to be about coaching and changing lives. Now if someone's a good marketer, naturally they can change someone's Life. But there are certain things that I'm not going to do in the industry to come down to a level that I don't believe in. So I've just accepted the fact that this is how it is and I'll find another way. Yes, but it's just, it's, it's. The game has changed a bit and I don't think it's for the better.
- [41:13]
A
Totally, totally. And I'm with you. And I see the same thing. Like, we have a lot of, like, in our field, like, influencers, mental health. Right. And you're not necessarily getting always the most credible advice and totally. It can bother me and I can. And I see this a lot where, like, there are a lot of people who want to do good and have done years and years of training and they're like, okay, why am I getting passed up for opportunities? Why are other people going to the front of the line? Why is this the project that I'm working on, not taking off? So whatever that might be.
- [41:38]
B
Right, right.
- [41:39]
A
So naming the antecedent. If somebody is like, I'm like, as granular as you can get. There's a lot of studies that people who are very granular, who can say, I am pissed off because of this one specific person, this one specific event that didn't go like, let's say two people or three people are being considered and you get passed up and the other person is like, way less qualified. Right. So being able to name it, whatever it might be. Right. Or it could be, you know, your, your boss didn't respond to an email where you're like, I'm asking for a. Like, I've been here for 17 years and, you know, and why am I not getting a promotion? I was supposed to. So naming the situation, then claiming it. Right. Where in the body are you holding on to your attention? So where do you say when, when. When this kind of stuff comes up? Do you notice any tightness in your shoulders?
- [42:25]
B
Don't. I've never even thought of that. So maybe it's just because I'm not paying attention to it. But now I'm going to think about it.
- [42:30]
A
Yeah. And like, for some people, it may be that, you know, when their head hits the pillow, all of a sudden, like the residue of the day comes to mind. Like, I know so many people who are like. Like, if I'm like, do you feel anxious? They're like, I'm not aware of it. And I'm like, then how do you sleep? And they're like, oh, not good. You Know, And I say, sleep is always a window into your mental health.
- [42:46]
B
Going to bed's easy.
- [42:47]
A
Yeah.
- [42:48]
B
I'm asleep in five seconds. It's the 3am, wake up.
- [42:51]
A
Yes.
- [42:52]
B
Then my head starts going, totally. It's weird how you flip flop that.
- [42:54]
A
Yeah. No. And that. I see that with a lot of people. I was talking to a patient yesterday and he said the same thing and he's like, I can fall asleep anywhere, it doesn't matter how much noise is around me. But I was waking up a couple times this week, you know, with the 3:00am anxiety. So, you know, I would say keep a journal next to your bed and if you can, like, there's something called a worry diary. And so when I. The leg weakness that I was telling you about, that to the point where I wasn't able to walk, I ended up going to therapy. Cognitive behavioral therapy. And it was so helpful for me. In just a few sessions, my physical symptoms resolved because I finally had an outlet. Right? And now I remember when the therapist first told me, like, write down your worries. I'm like, that's crazy. Why would I write down the very things that I am trying to escape from?
- [43:35]
B
Right?
- [43:36]
A
And she's like, write all of them down, as many as you can. I'm like, that's batshit crazy, girl. Like, I don't know what you're talking about. Like, I gotta write down the things I'm trying to run away from. And she was like, please do.
- [43:44]
B
Are you a. Do you journal in general?
- [43:46]
A
I do. Okay. Yeah.
- [43:48]
B
You find. Is that something that you developed after the therapist told you to start writing down your words?
- [43:52]
A
You know, I was somebody who. Who would always like to express myself. Like, as a kid. It was really helpful. It was so interesting. So my dad gave me a diary at a young age, right? Then he found out. I told him, I'm like, mom's looking at my diary a lot. And he's like, okay, no, no, no, we can't have that. Because she's like, who's this boy?
- [44:08]
B
Come on, Mom.
- [44:08]
A
Yeah. My parents were so strict. I grew up in like a South Asian. Yeah. And it's like, you're not allowed to talk to boys. I'm like, when can I talk to a boy after you're married. I'm like, okay. Like, to your husband, right? And I'm like, you can date your husband. That's who you can date. Right?
- [44:21]
B
I love it.
- [44:22]
A
So they were so strict and they gave me this diet. So my dad gave me a diary with a lock on it. Finally, and he was like, you should just write. And I would like write about anything, like nonsense, right? But then this worry diary was specifically about like writing the things that you're worried about. And so what I learned was that there's a lot of science behind journaling. So first of all, what this taught me was the things that you worry about. So there's studies that show that 85% of the time the things that you worry about never actually happen. And the 15% of the time that they happen, you're better equipped to handle it than you actually give yourself credit. And so when you write these things over and over again, like I'm never whatever it is that the things that you're worried about, you're like number one, there's a theme. So you figure out, I'm always worried. Like for me it might be in the professional sense or I'm worried about what other people are thinking or I'm worried I'm not good, good enough. Like, or imposter syndrome. So you see a theme and then you see the theme is that bad stuff you worry about doesn't happen. And then you also write, right. How you actually solve the problem. So that's something you could also do to be like, I was worried about this and I decided, you know, for some people, they may say like in the situation we used with the marketing, it's like, screw it. If you can't beat them, join them. Fine, I'll pay for someone to do like, you know, a social media edit or haul or give me marketing advice or whatever it might be. So, you know, going back to the naming it, naming it, claiming it, where in your body are you feeling it, then taming it? What are you going to do to self soothe? And this is really important because most of us don't have. Journaling can be a way of self soothing. A one minute meditation workouts can be soothing. For me, taking a brisk 15 minute walk, there's so much science behind that. When you're walking, this causes like bilateral activation in your brain.
- [45:55]
B
So you have a specific trigger when you're, when your mind goes in a certain direction.
- [46:00]
A
Yes.
- [46:00]
B
Do you just, I mean, I can't imagine that you always have the luxury to be able to stop what you're doing and go for a walk. But are there other different things at different levels or times of the day that you might throw in there to, to help soothe that a bit?
- [46:11]
A
Totally. And that's a great question. Like the more tools that you have at your fingertips, you have to be Able to identify what is it that calms me down. Right. Like somebody might say getting up and literally just taking a bathroom break, splashing cold water on your face. If you have access to ice, it sounds crazy, but, you know, that stimulates the vagal nerve. And if you want to put ice on your, you know, on your neck or on your wrists, something that literally just breaks this rumination thought pattern and short circuits it because. Because when you're not. For some people, being in the flow state ends up like, I'm going to take on, I'm going to zone out or tune in to something like, I'm going to start. Not necessarily start, but for some people, gardening, pottery, like something that's creative, that puts them in the flow state, gets them out of the default mode network, which is the rumination, self referential. Me, me, me, me, me. Like, we see that people in state of depression are extremely self absorbed. I had a conversation, we did a fireside chat with the former Surgeon General, Dr. Vivek Murthy, and we had kicked off Mental Health month last year, and he talked about his own depression. And I was so humbled by the fact that, okay, here's this person who's so super accomplished, who feels so comfortable being vulnerable, but I saw how important it was. He was like, you know, in the state of my depression, I was just focused on me and what other people are thinking. And then what I found was getting outside myself and helping somebody else was so helpful. And I feel like in those moments, when we look at resilience, altruism is a big component. What can you do for somebody else? So that might be getting out of your own head. Part of self soothing might literally just be like turning to somebody else and being like, are you good? And you'll find that that distracts you because you're like, man, his problems are way worse than mine.
- [47:55]
B
Or sometimes the act of kindness is someone else can really help with that.
- [47:58]
A
Totally, totally. And I do believe that kindness really serves you probably two to three times as much. Like when you do something nice for somebody, you're like, damn, I'm a good person. You know? And that person is so, like, at the, at the, at the core of it, we're human beings and when we see, like we have mirror neurons. So, like, when I see you in pain, I'm going to be in pain. I mean, there are some people who have no empathy, right? So forget about them. That's. This conversation is, if you lack empathy, it's not going to help you. You have no idea what I'm talking about. But if you have empathy, seeing somebody either like hurt makes you feel hurt or seeing somebody happy, and that idea that I have, that I matter because in depression you lose that, you lose that feeling like, I matter, I belong, I have agency in the world, that people need me. So that's what it does when you do acts of kindness. It constantly reaffirms your own self worth, your own dignity.
- [48:45]
B
How different is approaching eliminating a bad habit with adding in a good habit?
- [48:51]
A
That's so interesting.
- [48:52]
B
You know, it's like, it's something I'm always wondering, is it, is it the same trigger mentally? Is there an answer to this or is this just all dependent upon the individual? Like, I'm curious to get your opinion on that.
- [49:04]
A
You know, I think, I think of bad habits as a form of coping, right? Like, because that's what it is, it's a form of self soothing, right? So when you're saying it really just needs to be something, replacing that bad habit with something that's self soothing, that doesn't take on a life of its own. So it's like when you're stressed out, a lot of people may say, I may turn to alcohol or I may turn to substances and that's fine. Like every now and then, you having a glass of wine or unwinding. Like, I have patients who are open with me, they're like, I took a gummy, you know, or whatever it might be. And I'm like, okay, if we're talking two or three times a week, okay, you know, I'm keeping my eye on it with you, right? But if you're telling me that five days a week, seven days a week, I need, need this to unwind, then I say I don't necessarily need your habit to be like a good habit. Like, oh, you're gonna go do a 75 minute workout in the gym, that's an excellent habit. But that's not realistic when you're feeling down, right? So for me, depending on like, if I can't get go for a quick walk, if I can't splash my face with water, I sometimes will keep like, I'll do like aromatherapy, peppermint, like citrus, all of those, especially in the winter months, are super uplifting. I love to vent. So I might call my husband in the middle of the day and be like, you have five minutes. And the poor guy will always give me five minutes no matter what he's doing.
- [50:16]
B
Like, sounds like an angel.
- [50:17]
A
Yeah, he is. And he's got, he's got an important job and he's, you know, and he'll always, and he'll stop and he'll be like, or he'll be honest with me if he can't, you know, or I'll text a friend and if, if, if, even if the friend just says, sue, I'm busy right now or I can't talk, but I'll call you on my way home. Just kind of having that lined up, knowing that this kind person is going to make time where I can for five minutes, just be seen.
- [50:37]
B
Sometimes I find as a coach I'm challenged because people will come and they will, I don't want to say complain, but they'll voice their displeasure. In life, I'm working, I don't make much money, I'm working a job, my boss is overworking me, I don't have time. It's just negative after negative. And I believe that, you know, do I think we can help everyone? I don't. Yeah, you need to be willing to change totally. And you need to be willing to do some things that are going to allow you to feel a little uncomfortable but to find that level of happiness. Do you think everyone can be changed? I mean that seems incredibly optimistic. Someone who doesn't have empathy, you know, and you said it earlier with some certainty. You were like, well, yeah, you can't. Someone who has no empathy, like, like, I can't. I see a ladybug, I'm opening a door for it. I'm like, I just, like, this is how I am. I can't hunt, I can't do certain things. But with someone who doesn't have empathy, do you think that everyone can be changed?
- [51:36]
A
Such a great question. And you know, there's a part of me that believes truly in the best of, in people, you know, and I remember as a kid reading the diary of Anne Frank and I remember her saying like in the diary, like in spite of everything, I still believe in the best of people. And there's a part of me that is, you know, hold on to that, like, and you might say it's naive, right? Like that. So I do believe that everybody has potential. Does everybody exercise their full potential? That's a whole different thing. And a lot of people don't. They're like, I have been wronged by people. I don't trust anybody. And they choose to live their life with blinders on that this is my lot in life. And for some people, their victim mentality serves them. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. Nothing can get better. Every Everything is everyone else's fault. These individuals tend to blame a lot, a lot of finger pointing, a lot of externalizing, don't take responsibility. And that's very off putting for anybody, you know. So when people ask me like when I'll do talks and they'll say, you know, I'm an optimist, I'm married to a pessimist. And I'm like, that's always how it happens, like on some level. But. And optimist and pessimist can make a good team sometimes as long as the pessimism is in small doses, where it's just enough to like do the diligence and the research I mentioned. And then the optimist is like, all right, you do the homework and then I'll go act on it, right? And they make a team together because there's at least one person executing. But when you're surrounded, there's something called stress contagion. Like when you're, when you're coaching someone and there's so much negativity and they have no desire to change, it's like, dude, just come back to me when you're like slightly open, right? And, and when we talk about stages of change, whether it's quitting smoking or alcohol, there's this pre contemplation phase where a person's in denial. I don't have a problem, nothing wrong with me, everything is everyone else's fault. And then they move through stages of change of contemplation. Okay, wait, I have a problem. Okay, maybe, maybe it is me. Maybe I have a pessimistic attitude. So I hope, my hope is that someone listening to this conversation who might say, yeah, I actually. My own self limiting beliefs, my own anger, my own victim mentality, pessimism could be interfering with me living my best life. Could it be possible that I might pick up this book? Maybe I could start to practice my optimism. I wasn't born with it, you know. And Don, there is a genetic component to optimism. It's called the oxtr, Oxytocin receptor gene. And if you're born with one version of this gene, you automatically see the glass as half full, right? And you keep persisting. And it sounds like you probably fall into that natural born mentality. But what we found was, which was so interesting to me and that's why I was like, oh my God, my mind is blown. And my mind, I'm not like very easily, like fascinated or, you know, my mind isn't blown. And I saw this OXTR gene. If it, if you have it. What you actually have are skills of having good emotional regulation. You're able to process, you're able to name, claim, tame, reframe. We didn't get to the reframing, but it's basically trying to find the silver lining, trying to find the positive, trying to spin the story in some way.
- [54:30]
B
Which seems difficult to do, by the way. Like you, you assess this problem and the behavior behind this problem, but fixing the problem seems like one of the things that most people struggle with. And maybe I'm wrong.
- [54:40]
A
No, no, absolutely. And that's why problem solving is the next pillar, right? So we had, you know, purpose is having an intention and processing your emotions. So then now you've emotionally worked. Because I always say there's always a battle on two fields. There's a battle in your mind, right, that the two demons, the optimist and the pessimists, are always contending and fighting with each other. You can do it. No, you can't do it. Other people can do it, but you can't. You're beating yourself up. And then there's a problem out in the real world. So problem solving is the next pillar, which is like, all right, now what are we gonna do? Who are we gonna talk to? Who are we gonna call? What army are we gonna deploy? How do we get our troops together, so to speak, right? Troops could just literally be like, what actionable steps items am I taking today? So the, the person born with that OXTR gene that certain, they're naturally capable of doing all of these eight pillars, problem solving. They have a strong sense of self, compassion. Pride is one of the pillars. They are proficient. They have a strong sense of agency and self efficacy, which is basically confidence in your abilities. They're present, they can talk to people. They're in the moment. They're not distracted by life or by the digital world or comparisons with other people. They are people, magnets. People is one of the pillars and then they execute, which is practicing healthy habits. So natural born optimists are often able to do a lot of these seamlessly. It's happening behind the scenes, in their head, in their life. You have no idea. But if you're not born with it, I basically codified and said these are the eight things that the most successful people in life do. And you can do it. They ask for help. They have a social network that they rely on. They create community, they create possibility. They're, they're super networkers and super connectors. They're always trying to help other people and they don't realize it, but in helping those other people, it comes back to them.
- [56:16]
B
Them.
- [56:16]
A
And I feel like you're probably one of those people who do a lot for other people.
- [56:19]
B
You try. I try. I've always been that way. I've never. I've done it for the right reasons and not for. Because I'm looking for something in return. But that's probably been one of the qualities. I've kind of looked at myself and been like, good job. You know, you got to be able to self reflect and say, hey, listen, this is. You're doing pretty well at that.
- [56:35]
A
And, and that's why you're going to have, like, I feel like a long, like, sustainable career. Because when you're talking about these, like, like, Don, it's so interesting and, and no, no shade to anybody out there. But I meet so many interesting people, you know, like for the last 20 years, from the media, from podcast world, influencer world, creator world. And I feel like the people who have the most longevity in their career are just genuine people.
- [56:55]
B
They're just genuinely good people.
- [56:56]
A
Yeah. And that's so rare. That's so rare.
- [56:59]
B
Totally agree. And by the way, I'm so grateful. We've just literally spent an hour. And I want to. We have a couple questions, but I want to. I've got one final question for you. Many people create a narrative in their head. Sometimes it's not true. They. It's a situation that they're creating, or they're getting upset about something that happened or angry, or they meant this through a text or an email, not actually hearing someone's tone. Whole other conversation. By the way, I'm a believer in just picking up the phone and hearing their tone. What do you say to someone whose head every day, their. Their mind goes into this negative place every day. What would be the. The 1, 2, 3 things that you would tell them to immediately kind of say, stop, drop, and focus this. Focus on this.
- [57:41]
A
Yes. Great. So there's something called cognitive distortions. And I talk about like 18 of them. I did a lot of them. All of us do them. Right. And when I was in therapy, this is what I learned, which is, you know, anytime you're feeling really down or angry about something, you're most likely employing one of these distortions. And I'll give you an example. Catastrophizing. Oh, my God. Like, they didn't call. They don't want to be my friend anymore. Right. Or fortune telling, jumping to conclusions. They all fill in, like, in the same category of like. Like you're projecting things onto the future that you have no evidence to support it. Right. Other than your feeling, the strong feeling that you have. So first, figuring out what's cognitive distortion, all or nothing, black and white thinking, something called discounting the positives. It's like, okay, this person has returned five of your six phone calls in the last year. Why would they all of a sudden not want to be your friend? Right? Or they show up to every one of your parties. They didn't show up this one time. They're not trying to give them the.
- [58:34]
B
Benefit of the doubt.
- [58:34]
A
Exactly right. And this is something that, that optimists and practical optimists do is they give people the most generous interpretation of the situation. So finding out what skewed thinking are you performing? And there's like, I give people a list of these things over magnification, overgeneralization. So these are the skewed perceptions, figuring out what you're doing and then asking yourself, how am I going to reframe it? So if I were to tell a friend, what advice would I give? Well, I would tell, because the minute you tell, the minute you ask that question, what would you tell a friend? All of a sudden you gain distance and objectivity and neutrality. How would I feel about this a year from now? Is this going to matter? Can I find an alternative way of looking at this? And then what evidence do I have to support this? And then, like you said, let's pick up the phone and let's ask, right? Because so many times we're spinning our wheels in the mud. And that's a difference between motion, like, without acceleration. So a lot of anxiety falls in the category of unproductive worry, where your wheels are stuck in the mud and you're not making or like a rocking chair where you're moving back and forth, but you're not actually, like, moving forward. So ask yourself, is this unproductive worry right now? Is it unproductive me spinning my wheels, making all sorts of stories about this person?
- [59:45]
B
That's a good first assessment. Kind of like, so you're basically saying the first thing, is this unproductive worry or is this something where, you know, your mom unfortunately is diagnosed with breast cancer? That's not unproductive worrying. That's like, you need to worry about that, you need to take action.
- [59:59]
A
So I need to take action. And then, so then what is the productive aspect? Right? Because I was definitely, like, my symptoms manifested because I wasn't able to, like, express one of the things on. I didn't mention Was. I was so afraid. How do I tell? Like in, in medicine, you were supposed to be this like self sacrificial hero, right? You are supposed to be, quote, fine, you don't have mental health challenges. Yes, totally. And you're not allowed. And I remember distinctly, like as part of the interview process, they said, you better be ready to roll up your sleeves. You check your personal life at the door. You're not a human being. Basically, when you have 104 degree fever, we don't give a crap. Attach yourself to an IV pole and get yourself hydrated on your own time. And basically that was the message. It's like you don't count as a person. You're a cog in a wheel. You're here to serve a purpose. So asking for time off, showing any degree of vulnerability, like I need to take appointments to go see my mom. It just felt unacceptable, right? So all of a sudden, and my mom was the rock around which my life was built. She was like the matriarch, super smart, super like capable, hyper educated woman. Had done a million things. And I was like, all of a sudden my mind was catastrophizing. Is she gonna die? She's never gonna see me married. She's never gonna meet my kid. So all these negative thoughts came flooding and what I needed to do was be like, get my ducks in a row. Okay, let's start with the basics. We are going to find her a doctor. Went to five doctors, nobody wanted to touch her. We were gonna go to 10 doctors, right? So it's just, there's all of those. I had to teach myself to become a practical optimist, right? Because I don't think I naturally fell into that 25%. So I was like, all right, what's the purpose? We gotta get mom a doctor. I'm just using this as an example. And it could be fill in your own example. Processing emotions. Oh my God, she's gonna die. Oh my God, oh my God, No. What are we gonna do? How are we gonna. I gotta name it. The name, the feeling is holy shit, right? Like claiming it. Where am I feeling it? I'm feeling it in my legs. Cause I don't feel my legs. They're fake. That they're giving out, right? Taming it. What am I gonna do? How am I gonna say? And that's where the therapy taught me. Mindfulness based stress reduction meditation and reframing it. All right, we're going to do the best we can. We're going to just keep going. There is a solution There always is a solution, worst case scenario. And then I started doing things like interviewing her, recording her, you know what I'm saying? Like, there are things. If, you know, you have a limited amount of time with somebody, how do you make, you know, they say you don't necessarily want to add more years to your life, you want to add more life to your years. Right. And so spending every minute going on more trips, like, so that's something that we can all do. If you have elderly parents or they don't even have to be sick right now, just make the most.
- [62:18]
B
You know, it's so funny. I just recently did this for the first time. I was going to AMA to work with John, Dr. John White. And my mom's never been to Chicago, so I call him up and I'm like, take a trip with me. I'm going for two days. I will not see you during the day, but pay for flights, the hotel, everything. You won't have to worry about everything. But let's. We had two dinners. That's all I saw them on. It was like a Tuesday and Wednesday night, like two dinners. That was it. And I'll never forget it. It was just one of those memorable moments where I'm like, you know what? The time, the money. It was like, I was so happy to have done that. And I'm actually said to myself, I need to make sure. Because realistically, you can't do this every month. You don't have time. Everyone's a different. But I. I told him, I said, every year we're going to pick a different spot.
- [63:03]
A
Yes.
- [63:03]
B
Because I'm always final. And I think that's important to do. And they. Even if the situations aren't ideal or. I remember my mom being like, oh, we're tired, we just traveled. I'm like, let's just do this. You'll be happy, you'll be fine. And I think sometimes you need that push. And. Yes. You never regret it afterwards, right?
- [63:18]
A
No, totally. I love that. That's so sweet. And, and I'm so glad you do that. And, you know, just think about, like, people I think take for granted, like, how much time they have with people. So make it, make it count.
- [63:28]
B
And when it's gone, it's gone. And that's a sad thing. It's. It's one of the most real things about life. Life is death, unfortunately.
- [63:34]
A
Yes.
- [63:35]
B
Well, listen, thank you so much. And one of the. My favorite parts of these episodes is that we take questions. You were very popular today. So if it's cool we're going to take three of them right now.
- [63:43]
A
Yes, absolutely.
- [63:44]
B
Awesome. Thank you. Okay, so our first question is from Olivia, and Olivia actually has two questions. So here's Olivia's first question.
- [63:54]
A
Hi, Don. Hi, Dr. Varma. I'm Olivia and I have a few questions. My first question is, Dr. Varma, could you explain a bit about the difference between compartmentalization and repression? Great question. So, you know, compartmentalization says, you know, I'll get to this, but I don't necessarily need to do this right now, but I'm aware and I'm gonna process this when I have a moment. And suppression is basically like you're deciding that you can't deal with this, like it's too overwhelming. And there's this quote that Mr. Rogers said and you know, it's in the book, I don't wanna butcher it, but it's basically like, you know, if it exists, we can talk about it. Right. So it just really encourages people to acknowledge emotion and to not suppress them because we know all of the health detriment. So compartmentalizing is healthy. It says, I've got something going on, but I'm gonna put it on the back burner, but you have to come back to it.
- [64:47]
B
Do you find that just. It doesn't matter who you speak to sometimes just venting it in the open to someone, a sounding board?
- [64:54]
A
Yes.
- [64:55]
B
Do you find that valuable or do you really feel like you need to find someone who's able to give you some feedback?
- [65:00]
A
Yeah. No, I think venting, especially for women is, is so key. And I, and I know this is a total stereotype, but a lot of men are like, I don't need to vent, I'm good. Like, it'll just pass on its own.
- [65:07]
B
I need it all the time. Got my sounding voice out there, so.
- [65:11]
A
I need, you know, and venting just. There's so much. It's. It, it does a lot of things. It's pro social, right? And it basically says like, you got my back and I feel taken care of. And it, it boosts oxytocin, which is the cuddle and bonding hormone or just it's boosted amongst friends and it lowers cortisol. So if you. And there's. They've done studies that, like, if you can get a person on the phone that, that hearing somebody's voice. There was a study that showed when teenage girls were upset if they got a text from their mom that said, you're good, or like positive reinforcement by text didn't have the same impact as hearing somebody's voice that that's loving and soothing. So I would say pick up the phone and definitely vent. But also be mindful of, like, what their situation is, because maybe they don't have the bandwidth. So you can always say, like, I need to venture. Do you have a few minutes? Let me know when you have time. You're always so helpful. So this also shows gratitude, it shows respect for the other person because a lot of times people are like, I'm. You're unloading on me. And that's too much.
- [66:05]
B
Sets. It sets a table too, when you let them know what's coming, you know, Fantastic. Chris, we'll take your second one. All right, here's Olivia's second question.
- [66:13]
A
My second question is, as our friends in the northern hemisphere start to drift towards winter, if Dr. Varma, if you have any proactive strategies for dealing with seasonal depression. So seasonal blues are something that more than 50% of people get. Seasonal depression is a little bit more severe than maybe only 5% of the population get. And it's like, you know, seasonal blue may be like, ah, I don't feel like doing it. But if you can rally and say, get some sunshine. I mean, the treatment like for seasonal depression is that if it's a little bit more severe, you might need therapy, which is fine, or even medication, depending on how severe. But, but for seasonal blues, which a lot of us have, I say, like, morning sunlight is so key. Getting morning sunlight throughout the year, but specifically in the winter months and to not be shy, even light therapy, a lot of people will get a light box. Obviously discuss it with your medical provider. Like they say, 10,000 locks and 30 minutes in the morning and having it certain distance from you and maybe not looking directly at it, but in the direction. So there's certain instructions about using light boxes. But. But natural sunlight 10 or 15 minutes in the morning as much as possible. And that's really key because exposure to morning sunlight suppresses melatonin. And it basically says time to wake up. And because of that melatonin suppression in the day, you then can get melatonin rise in the evening, which is what you want. Limiting tablets and screens before bedtime. Exercise is huge for seasonal depression. We find that a person is more lethargic and carb craving, so you want to be able to have a little bit more fat, healthy fat and fiber and protein so that you're not getting a lot of the spikes, insulin spikes, and then not being afraid of cognitive behavioral therapy, you know, and people I'm very careful about, like the Role of antidepressant medication. Like, they can be life saving and life changing in the right context. It's a very individual decision. There's a lot of side effects for some people. So having that carefully thought out plan, because people who get seasonal blues or winter depression will find that year after year. And in depression, you know, you may even say, like, I don't feel like I have any purpose in life. Right. Or like, you don't want to live anymore. So that to me says, whoa, this is now within the realm of you need professional help. There's nothing wrong with it. But noticing that if you only get depression in the winter, that's a sign that this might be a seasonal depression.
- [68:29]
B
Yeah. I mean, I don't want to, you know, kind of knock on this, but a morning walk doesn't fix everything.
- [68:36]
A
You know what I mean?
- [68:36]
B
And there are situations where people do need to kind of of go to that next step. But, you know, I do know personally, if I'm waking up first thing in the morning and I'm avoiding screen time and I'm hydrating and getting a meal in and going out for a morning walk for 20 minutes, not 9 out of 10 times, 10 out of 10 times, I feel better. It's a definite yes in my health and wellness.
- [68:58]
A
Absolutely. And even if you can't get out in the morning, like, even in the afternoon, exposure to afternoon light, some type of walk. And, you know, I have so many patients who, like, you know, just so people understand, as a psychiatrist, I work with people in the darkest of times. Right. So I don't, like, there's no platitudes or just look on the bright side or you got this. Or, you know, morning sunlight. Like, I have patients who swear by these if they need therapy. Sure. Right. I have a lot of patients I do therapy with, talk therapy that are not on medication. So it's not for everybody. But I do believe that, like, patients who do the 20 minutes that you're talking about, all the things you just said, it is life changing.
- [69:31]
B
I love it. Chris, third question. All right, here's the final question. This is from Tam in the UK.
- [69:37]
A
Hi, dawn and Dr. Barma. My name's Tam and I would like to ask you how would you recommend reprogramming your brain after months, if not years of feeling that fight or flight anxiety that you can get? Thanks. So, Tam.
- [69:51]
B
Yeah, Tam.
- [69:52]
A
Tam is asking how do you reprogram your brain after months or years of fight or flight anxiety? So here's the thing is, like, there's I want to let people know that there's no simple shortcut in life. Right? So what does that fight or flight look like for you? And, you know, I often say, like, first of all, you can't solve a problem that you don't fully understand. So, you know, I think Einstein used to say, like, 90% of the effort and energy should be put in solving, like, understanding the problem, the diagnosis of it. So have you seen. Have you talked to someone to understand what the fight or flight is about? Is it just mild or is it. Is this impairing my functioning? Right. Because that's when the question is talking to someone. And cognitive behavioral therapy really is reprogramming. So if you're like, I need to work one on one, I always encourage people, work one on one wherever you are. There's no quick fix to reprogramming. Right. If we were to talk about practical optimism as a form of reprogramming, doing all of these exercises, do I feel like I have purpose in life? Do I need to add more joy? Am I having too much in my drudgery drawer where I'm just going through the motions, but I'm not really having fun? A lot of times people are like, I feel like the other shoe is gonna drop because they haven't reconnected with what pleasure brings to them. I always ask people who are going through anxiety or depression, like, what do you really enjoy in life? And when's the last time you did it? Right? So connecting to your joy, challenging your negative thoughts, finding out what distortions you're doing, and then coming up with ways to reframe them. Movement is a big part of this, right? The four M's are a big part.
- [71:18]
B
Yeah, the four M's Go through this again.
- [71:20]
A
Yeah. So it's movement, mindfulness, meaningful engagement, and mastery.
- [71:24]
B
Movement, movement, mindfulness, mastery, mastery, and meaningful engagement and meaningful engagement.
- [71:30]
A
But I just want to know that there's people to know that there's no, like, simple quick fix. Because fight or flight can mean different things to different people. It means I'm living on edge. It means I can't pay my bills. It means I haven't reached where I want in life. So getting really hyper specific and then seeking out somebody who can help you define and put that into words and be like, okay, for you, fight or fly means this. You're waking up anxious. How do we get you to bed? How do we maybe limit caffeine? Right? Like, so I would need to know more about that.
- [71:59]
B
But that's kind of the. But but those that, that's a good framework to be able to at least follow and assess and say, all right, let me dive into this. And this is all like a self assessment, right? I mean this, everything we're talking about today is going to allow us to step back and look into ourselves and say, all right, you know what, maybe I can add this or implement this. And there's probably, there's so many great things that you could take away from this, but I'm not expecting everyone to nail everything out of the gate. I think these things, like you said, practical, like, in a way, this needs to be practiced.
- [72:29]
A
Yes, absolutely.
- [72:29]
B
Right, right. So it needs to be practiced like anything else.
- [72:31]
A
Totally. And I say, like, practical optimism is a practice. It's like learning a new skill like a bike, a language, a sport, a hobby. And I give people an assessment. In the beginning of the book, there's 40 questions and it basically is like asking you which, which pillar do you need to work on first? Right. Like, this is the order that I've given. Like you start with a goal or an intention and it ends with executing that goal and intention. And these are all the things that might come up and be serve as obstacles. And this is how you're going to break through all those barriers. But doing that assessment would be the first place to start.
- [73:03]
B
Awesome. Listen, I can't thank you enough. I feel like I've known you for a decade at least and I'm grateful for you to put your time aside from your family and you're working to come down here, here and Chris, thank you, Eric. And I also want to thank the team over at the Post Christian Ponder and everyone. Just a phenomenal place to shoot in and very grateful and I'm looking forward to this episode coming up.
- [73:26]
A
Me too. Thank you so much for having me. The views, information or opinions expressed in the series are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of Chip and Joanna. Gain Buy no audio nor Magnolia.
- [73:42]
B
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