Recover Faster: Sleep, Stress & Elite Recovery with NHL Trainer Andy O'Brien

Summary

Stronger with Don Saladino

Episode: Recover Faster – Sleep, Stress & Elite Recovery with NHL Trainer Andy O'Brien

Date: December 9, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of Stronger dives deep into the science and real-world practicalities of recovery, sleep, stress management, and elite athlete performance with world-renowned NHL strength coach Andy O’Brien. Host Don Saladino sits down with Andy to explore what truly works when it comes to optimizing recovery—sorting through the hype on trends like cold plunges and saunas to give listeners actionable, evidence-based advice. The conversation is grounded in Andy’s two decades working with elite players like Sidney Crosby and Nathan MacKinnon, as well as his evolving role as an entrepreneur in the performance supplement space. A major focus emerges: building habits and mindsets around sleep, stress, and resilient leadership to get consistent, long-term results.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Leadership & Team Culture with Elite Athletes

[07:37 – 11:41]

• Andy shares insights on what makes Sidney Crosby an exceptional leader, emphasizing humility, social awareness, and genuine care for teammates.
  • "He’s just incredibly socially aware and just a good human, very humble. And it's amazing the impact that has. It's really like a ripple effect..." (Andy, 07:37)
• Crosby’s practice of inviting every new player to dinner, exchanging numbers, and checking in is cited as exemplary leadership that fosters trust, connection, and lasting team success.
• Discussion on how team sports, especially hockey, foster a unique brotherhood and sense of collective achievement—extending beyond performance to real-life relationships.

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2. Evolution of Sports Science & Sleep as a Competitive Edge

[11:41 – 21:24]

• Andy outlines the transformation of strength and conditioning in elite hockey, highlighting how sleep data changed NHL travel protocols.
• Extensive explanation of sleep research and its confirmed impact on recovery, injury risk, hormonal balance, and learning, much of which was implemented during Pittsburgh’s championship seasons (16–17).
  • "If you look at the research around sleep, that's not new... when sleep gets impaired, you don't recover as well… your hormones change... influences on hydration, focus, endurance, stamina, motor learning..." (Andy, 12:19)
• Teams previously boarded planes immediately after night games, which disrupted player sleep cycles; sleep data showed starting sleep after 1am led to significant drops in performance.
  • "...when you start your sleep cycle after 1am, it’s pretty significant in terms of the drop off the next day. So we’d see these drops in HRV, increases in heart rate in practice." (Andy, 15:14)
• Now it’s standard for NHL teams to stay overnight in cities to preserve consistent sleep schedules—a shift catalyzed by both veteran buy-in and measurable performance benefits.

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3. Cold Plunges, Saunas, and the Reality of Recovery Modalities

[27:37 – 42:09]

• Don and Andy discuss how trends like cold plunges and saunas swing from hype to criticism, often based on misinterpreted or clickbait scientific studies.
  • "It is kind of sad. People are attracted to the loud message...something that comes across as a secret...unfortunately, the interpretation of [science] is another.” (Andy, 28:52)
• Andy cautions against black-and-white thinking and stresses adjusting protocols to personal physiology, goals, and timing.
  • Cold plunges: best viewed as a modifiable tool, not a magic bullet or universal solution.
  • Example protocols from Andy:
    • 30-second cold plunge in the morning to boost dopamine, energy, and consistency without impairing digestion or pre-workout readiness ([33:40])
    • Longer cold plunges post-workout only for joint pain/recreational activity relief; for muscle growth-focused training, wait a few hours before plunging ([34:44])
  • "I really like the short protocols in the morning. I think they’re really beneficial... not enough to inhibit training or food." (Andy, 34:44)
• Myths about blunting hypertrophy and “anabolic windows” are debunked in favor of practical, flexible guidance.
  • "I find it hard to believe a few hours after a lifting session...three minutes of cold exposure is going to blunt all this muscle growth." (Don, 37:01)
• Both agree: consistent, intelligent habits and personal experimentation matter more than viral trends.

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4. Rapid-Fire: Additional Recovery Modalities

[40:41 – 46:31]

• Sauna:
  • Andy’s preferred protocol: 4x/wk, 180°F for 20min (or longer if using lower heat). Especially effective post-workout or before bed for sleep support, circulation, and cardiovascular health.
    • "Big fan. I do like higher heats for myself...180 to 200, somewhere in that zone." (Andy, 41:19)
• Red Light Therapy:
  • Advocates for red light beds (20min, 4–5x/wk); sees improved blood flow, skin health, and recovery (“had black sunspots disappear in a month”—Don).
• Compression Boots & Firefly Devices:
  • Strong evidence for reducing soreness and swelling; Fireflies recommended for circulation during travel and long periods of sitting.
    • "The Firefly...creates a little contraction of the tibialis anterior muscle...[it’s] a pumping mechanism, like circulation. It’s fantastic." (Andy, 43:08)
• PEMF Therapy & Microcurrent:
  • Useful for stimulating muscle recovery and circulation; Andy endorses frequency-specific microcurrent for individualized muscle stimulation.
• Both note: practicality and routine matter—tools must fit real-life use.

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5. Mindset: Mental Recovery from Injury

[47:38 – 54:47]

• Live call-in from Jess in Germany prompts a deep dive into the mental aspect of injury recovery.
  • Jess: “How do you approach your athletes about the mental part [of injuries]?...we don’t talk enough about this part of injury management.” (Jess, 47:54)
• Andy emphasizes:
  • The harder you work in sport, the harder setbacks hit; injury challenges identity and progress.
  • Reframes injury as an opportunity to build resilience, self-awareness, and gratitude.
    • "The obstacle is the way...you become stronger through injury, more in tune with your body, more resilient.” (Andy, 48:28)
  • Shares examples (Sidney Crosby’s year-long concussion recovery, Dara Torres’ comeback after multiple knee surgeries).
  • “On the positive end of that mountain is just gratitude...you tend to savor the moment a little bit more.” (Andy, 51:13)
• Don adds that injuries have driven his creativity and ultimately improved his approach (“grateful for the speed bumps”).
  • “Looking back, I’m almost, in a way, grateful I had to go through those speed bumps...I was able to come back stronger.” (Don, 51:26)
• Jess highlights how injury prompted her to start strength training to “bulletproof” her knee.

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Notable Quotes

• On Team Culture & Leadership:

  “It actually kind of forms a team environment that’s better than the sum of its parts. And to me, that’s really what success in teams and groups is, is how can you take all individuals and create something that actually becomes greater than all of the people put together.”
  — Andy O’Brien (08:38)

• On Sleep’s Impact:

  “If you look at the research around sleep, that’s not new…when sleep gets impaired, you don’t recover as well. Obviously, you lose focus. Your hormones change, how you metabolize glucose, how you create anabolic versus catabolic hormones…”
  — Andy O’Brien (12:19)

• On Cold Plunges:

  “As a starting point, I think it’s positive for people to know it’s a tool. It’s a tool that can be modified or modulated or dosed up, dose down...depending on what your goals are.”
  — Andy O’Brien (33:21)

• On Injury & Mindset:

  “What the injury presents is an obstacle, and I think the obstacle is the way. When you look at it, it’s going to require you to change your mindset and look for areas of opportunity you hadn’t looked for before. You become more resilient, and manage the ups and downs a little bit more... Ultimately, there’s a lot more gratitude.”
  — Andy O’Brien (48:28)

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Memorable Moments & Takeaways

• Sidney Crosby’s off-ice leadership—welcoming every new player, building team trust (07:55)
• The ripple impact of sleep science—how shifting from “get on the plane after a game” to “stay overnight” became NHL standard (12:19–17:26)
• Andy’s pragmatic approach to recovery science—debunking extremes, emphasizing context and “n of 1” experimentation (28:52, 39:15)
• Don’s candid reflections on injury—becoming more creative and appreciative because of setbacks (51:26)
• Real talk on modern biohacking noise: “We need people to become a little smarter themselves and take the research and not just decide, I'm going to just do this because this is the be all, end all.” (Don, 39:14)
• Jess’s story: turning ACL injury into a positive by discovering weight training and new mental resilience (52:59)

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• Sidney Crosby & Team Leadership: 07:37–11:41
• Sleep/Travel in NHL: 12:19–21:24
• Recovery Myths & Cold Plunge Science: 27:37–39:14
• Sauna/Red Light/Compression Modalities: 40:41–46:31
• Caller Q&A – Mental Side of Injury Recovery: 47:38–54:47

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Final Thoughts

Andy O’Brien delivers practical, nuanced recovery advice grounded in science and decades of elite coaching experience. The episode highlights the “boring basics” as the real differentiators: consistent sleep, smart stress management, and sustaining a growth mindset through adversity.

Stronger, indeed, means showing up for yourself—with the right tools, habits, and perspective.

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Listen to full episodes of Stronger with Don Saladino for more insights and actionable strategies from the world’s top performers.

Transcript

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[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

All right, so in this episode of Stronger, I bring on my friend Andy o'.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

Brien.

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

Andy is the strength coach for some of the greatest hockey players that have ever lived. He's worked with guys like Cindy Crosby, Nathan McKinnon. We go into detail on his list of people, but I think what's more impressive is Andy's level of longevity in the business and his want to always get better and produce. I mean, this is the guy where if you are in the hockey world, you want to be seeing Andy. Andy became an entrepreneur by getting involved with a company called Sizzle Brands, which now produces high end supplements called Spoken, as well as a hydration drink called Quench, spelled with a C. I am involved with Quench also. So this is where I know Andy from. But Andy's going to get into stories and just gives you a lot of insight onto what goes on in that world. But also the things that you should be really focusing on that are going to give you the most bang for your buck when it comes to recovery. We discuss different modalities like sauna and plunges, but what are the things that he values the most? You're going to hear it on this episode. Let's go.

All right, guys, first off, I have.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

To thank my sponsors.

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

One of them right now being Mito Pure. Mitopure. Thank you guys for, for just being.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

A loyal sponsor of ours.

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

So they have a few different products. They have Mito Pure, which is a urolithin a product. So I've been taking this product for a while. My skin, my lines, my energy level, my mitochondrial function is fantastic and Mito pure their urolithin a supplement, I take four capsules a day. That's a thousand milligrams.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

I take it religiously and I really can't travel without it now because I.

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

Have seen benefits come from this. With probably about three to six months.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

I just started feeling like my skin was glowing a little bit more. I was feeling a bit younger. I was.

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

But they also have skin products, which I love.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

They have a night cream, which I think is fantastic.

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

They have a day cream. They have a whole bunch of stuff.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

So I just hit them up and I'm like, send me more because I'm out. And they're like, I'm praying it comes.

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

Soon because I don't know, I just.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

Our skin, it's, it's, it's so important.

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

It's so overlooked by most, most men. I mean, women. You guys got it. You're nailing it.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

I, I gotta admit it, like they're, they're just, they've been doing this a long time and guys get a little.

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

Bit more seasoned throughout their years when.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

They decide to start incorporating this stuff. But I think it's a good habit to enforce. So.

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

Might appear again. Thank you again, Timeline. Thank you. And timeline is offering 20% off your first order. Might appear. Go to timeline.com backslash stronger. That's t I m e l I n e dot com stronger. I can't believe I actually had to read how to spell timeline.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

I did, though.

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

All right, guys, have fun.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

All right, so I think it was a couple months ago I reach out to our buddy Jordan Shallow, and I just got some energy systems questions. I started asking Jordan and he saw where the direction was going. Jordan's like a brother. He's like, you need to talk to Andy O'. Brien. We're on the phone 45 minutes and I'm like, oh my God, I love this guy. I was like, it was one of those like match made in heaven questions. The next thing you know, I'm jumping on a plane, flying to Toronto for three days. Really got to see your process. And I would say out of my experience in my life of working with people, I probably haven't met a coach that's more in tuned with analytics.

Tech, spreadsheets, but also balancing science with practicality, which to me is the rarity. Right, because you've got field type coaches that don't like to read a lot of the literature, but they have a lot of experience. And nowadays you have all these younger kids that just want to do science based and research Backed and sound all smart and put stuff on the Internet, and they don't have a thousand hours of training, someone on the floor. So that's where I think you become really unique. Now you've been working in the NHL. I'm rambling. I'm rambling right now because there's a lot to. There's a lot to cover. I want to set the stage here. But you've been working with professional hockey players for as long as I've been working with, you know, movie stars. I mean, you've been in the business now well over 20 years. Right. You work with arguably one of the top five best hockey players, I think, of all time, Sidney Crosby, working with him for what, 20 years now?

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

25 years.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

Okay. Nathan McKinnon, who's not bad either. He's decent, kind of fast. Right.

There's so much that you do from a recovery standpoint, strength and conditioning standpoint. This clinic type retreat that you host in Vail, there's so much that you do. I almost don't even know where to start. Because when someone's listening to this right now, I think the purpose of this today is I want to actually not just give them your biography. Like, yeah, I want to tell everyone who you are, but I also want them to leave with like, checklist stuff, like, what's your protocol for cold plunging? What's your protocol for sauna? So to set everyone up right now, I want to take a little bit of a different approach today, and I want to come in and talk about some fun stuff that you study the science on, but you've also put to.

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

Use with your athletes, and you've seen.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

A really good return with.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

It's amazing. Yeah. Well, first of all, thanks for the kind words there. Like, in our business, there really is no accomplishment. You know, we're not in a league, you know, where you can win championships. And so I think there's nothing more validating and nothing better than, you know, just. Just kind words from a peer that you respect. So that. That's huge for me. And yeah, it is true. It's funny when you're so passionate about something, I'm sure it's the same in other fields. Like you have these little bromances of. At times, you know, you meet. Meet somebody like, wow, this guy's. Or they're doing something really interesting. I could learn from, really enjoy that interaction. So. So it's been a lot of fun, but, yeah, happy to. To really dive into anything. And that's been great to be here.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

Appreciate It. So I. I got to highlight one of the greatest hockey players that ever lived. I mean, I got to start off there. Sidney Crosby.

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

I mean, he.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

There. There's so many great things I've heard about him off the ice. We know what he can do with play. But there was a story that you told me recently, and I want to set this up, because I got a highlight like this. You were talking about any new player that comes into Pittsburgh, some of the stuff that he does. And I think from a leadership standpoint, I want to start there because you could be a great player. And to me, if you don't have those leadership skills, I don't know, I don't think you can lead a team to victory, which, at the end of.

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

The day, you could be the greatest.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

Goal scorer of all time. But if you can't lead a team to win, that is what business owners need to know how to do. That's what teachers need to lead. You know, we all need to leave. So tell us some stories about Sid and some of the things that he did from a leadership standpoint.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

Man, so many great stories. But I think if you were to ask about Sid's leadership with teammates and various people that maybe have worked with him, most people go to the same answer. It has so much to do with his genuine caring about other people that are around him and his genuine level of interest and curiosity about people just incredibly socially aware and. And just a good human, very humble. And it's amazing the impact that that has. It's really like a ripple effect where when somebody who you expect has the weight of the world in their shoulders and needs to, rightfully so, be very focused on themselves, almost in a selfish way, because, you know, they have to be all in on the expectations that they have upon themselves when they take the time to really see other people and want to get to know them and develop, like, a real interest and. And you. You form trust. You form relationships that just elevates everybody. And it. It. It makes. I think it's. It actually kind of forms.

A team environment that's better than the sum of its parts. And to me, that's really what success in teams and groups is, is how can you take all of the individuals and then create something around the relationships of all of those people that actually becomes greater than all of the people, you know, put together. And I do think hockey is the ultimate team game. I think that it's all about momentum. It's all about wanting to do it and for each other, not. Not about yourself. It's very, very hard to win just as an individual. And so I think when you have individuals like Sid who inspire other people and make other people better and bring groups together just by who they are and the example that they set on and off the ice, I think you start to have a lot more team success around those people.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

I think hockey, I mean, I'm. I'm a. I was a collegiate baseball player. I'm a love of baseball, and I will flat out get prop and I play club hockey. I mean, I'll give props. I mean, I've never seen such a game that I think is so revolved around skill, speed, power. I mean, these. These skaters are.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

Are. Are.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

Are flying. They're hitting each other. It's like a car wreck.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

Yeah.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

And the amount of injuries and the toughness out of these hockey players, I mean, even of all athletes I've met, I mean, you speak to some of these Canadian hockey players are like, yeah, you know, hey, I just broke my foot. It's no big deal. Like, this is like, hey, you know.

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

It'S like, yeah, no big deal.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

There, There. There is this level of toughness to them. I think the thing I admire about Sid not only is his skill, but one of my favorite stories was how any new player that comes to the team, he invites for dinner. Yeah. Just to sit there, to get to know them, exchange his phone numbers, is checking in on them. That, to me, is leadership, and I think that's what it takes for a winning organization.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

Yeah. No question. No question. It. It's probably the greatest thing about sports. The thing that I've probably, looking back, working with teams, the thing that I kind of hold dear in my own personal experiences has just been the brotherhood that you get. Being a part of a team, especially a team that's won championships and the relationships that you form, There's. There's players who were part of those championship teams in Pittsburgh that. That I was a part of that years could go by and you don't see each other. And then the moment you see each other, it's just this instantaneous connection. And you want to spend time catching up with each other and seeing how each other's doing. So that's pretty cool to feel that and experience that. And I think it's one of the great parts about sports is when you. You kind of put your agenda and your individual goals aside and you do something together. And it's the togetherness of that that's pretty cool, especially in hockey, because you have all of the things you mentioned about the sport itself and why it's so difficult and why it's so challenging of a sport. But, you know, the Stanley cup is the most famous trophy in sports. It's incredibly humbling. They. They allow the staff members of the team to get the cup and bring it home for a day, get your name on it, share it with your family, and you instantly become connected to Stanley cup winning teams of the past, you know, and. And the communities that got pulled into that and the staff that got pulled into that. It's. It really is this whole thing of doing it together and, and paying tribute to all of the people that kind of helped each one of those players, you know, get to that stage in their career. So the whole journey is really unique, I think, in all of sports.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

It's. It's amazing to see how far strength and conditioning has come, especially in sports.

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

Right.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

It's. It's to look at hockey, you know, 20 years ago and to see how the training, the rest and recovery has evolved. I mean, you were with an organization where you guys literally had to change your travel schedule to revolve around performance. Can you talk to us about some of the metrics and how this has improved that organization or an organization? The things that teams are thinking about now that maybe in the beginning took a little poking and prying, but now they're actually seeing a massive return on.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

Yeah, I can remember back, and I think it's. I think it's safe to talk a little bit about this. In our championship seasons in 16 and 17 in Pittsburgh, we were. We were a team that. That had a core of hall of Fame players. And, you know, we. We had some injuries, and they wanted to spend a little bit of money and build out the resources in sports science to try to just give that team every opportunity that it could and the best possible resources. And so there was an appetite for success there. There was a lot of good pieces. And so we did start to mon. And start to collect a little bit of information that would help us make decisions. And the one thing that was really fascinating to me is just this concept of sleep. If you look at the research around sleep, that's. That's not new. You know, it's been around for a long time. We know that when sleep gets impaired, you don't recover as well. Obviously, you lose focus. Your hormones change, both with how you metabolize glucose to, you know, how you create anabolic versus catabolic hormones. There's influences on hydration, there's influences on. On focus, endurance, stamina motor learning. So if you're at a practice the next day and you're sleep deprived, you're not able to create neuroplasticity with those new skills that you're learning. You're not even really quite capable of remembering the tactical things that you're able to do as well if you, if you hadn't been sleep deprived. And so it was really clear that sleep made a big difference, especially in a team that's injured, because we know there's this increased risk of muscle injuries when sleep goes down and there's this increase in general inflammation globally throughout the body. So, um, yet there was this tradition in hockey where you just like after a game is over, you just jump on a plane and go. And sometimes you're getting in 3 o' clock and 4 o'. Clock. And there was a lot of logic, I think, that people had formed around that. Like one is just, you just want to get the heck out of there. You play a game, that game's over, try to look to the next game, get it behind you. That was one. I think the second thing was a lot of players had trouble sleeping after games. So they're up till 1, 2 in the morning anyway. So why not get on a plane and start going to our next destination? And I think with some of the research that we had done there actually kind of monitored sleep patterns for players. Not allowed to do that anymore. It's actually some privacy stuff. But back then we had some players volunteer to do it. Nothing was really meant.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

Player safety stuff. Not, not player safety. Was that like player union?

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

Yeah, player union, collective bargaining agreement, which really seeks out to make sure that, you know, teams are doing it for the best interest of the players. And sleep was one of those things. I think people, I mean, it's not exactly spying, but it, but in some ways, you know, if it's mandated, you know, and player decides whatever he wants to stay up, go to bed, how that's being interpreted and perceived isn't like necessarily universally good. I think in some teams it's really good and it's for the right reasons. And then, you know, maybe in some teams they're using it against a player, or maybe it's information the player doesn't want to share.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

But can a, but can a player opt in? Like, is there, is there something that a player can opt in for? Do they just have to go find someone like you to be like Andy? I want to look at, I look.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

Into this and right now in the NHL, it's something actually teams are not allowed to look at. So you can look at it outside. And so we had a, a very player friendly system in Pittsburgh. Mike Sullivan had addressed the players and said, we think we have resources that can give us a competitive advantage. We want players to encourage, to participate in this. We encourage it, but it's not mandatory. This will never be used against you. It's not coming to the coach for any specific reason. It stays with the training staff. And so we just had a good culture and really good leadership there and we participated in it. And so we looked at what when players go to bed at different times. So when player, you know, after a home game, what, what time do players go to bed on average after a road game, what time do players go to bed on average? And so how long does it take after you land a plane for players to actually start their sleep cycle? Is that 30 minutes? Is it 90 minutes? So we looked at all of the nuance to try to understand what goes on in different scenarios when you travel after games in particular and how that changes things in terms of how hard you have to practice, what time, type of training you want to do, how your nutrition and supplementation might change and what realized that there's sort of this like sweet spot around 1am that when you start your sleep cycle after 1am it's pretty significant in terms of the drop off the next day. So we'd see these drops in hrv, increases in heart rate and practice. And so you know, there's really two ways to strategize around that. You can modify everything you're trying to do from a training standpoint, which is very reductionist. You're trying to take down all the intensity and you're trying to lower everything to accommodate that physiology so you don't get this wearing down of the players over this 82 game schedule. Or you know, you can, you can start to stay over. Right. Which wasn't really popular in the beginning.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

They probably hated it.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

I just hated it, you know, or the coach would say, hey, we're going to stay over and the players are just going to go out and have a good time and they're not going to bed early anyways. So there's, there's all these conversations around whether it works, whether it doesn't work. But I think our, with that team at that particular time, we had a lot of players who were veteran players that cared about their bodies. They understood the value of the training and the nutrition, the supplementation and they're.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

The ones influencing the younger guys, the young Guys want to go out and party. This one's going. Eh, that's, no, that's not going to happen.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

That's it.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

That's leadership. That's what I'm.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

Yeah, you can have dinner and, and maybe a glass of wine and still go to bed. It doesn't have to be an all nighter. And also just this understanding that, you know, hey, do we, are we serious about winning or not? And if we are, then you know, we want to start to, to do things that help you feel good in your body and help you play at a high level consistently. And so we just had a great group of guys that knew how to balance being social with each other and, and having fun and enjoying each other on a day to day basis, but be serious and prepared and take care of their bodies. Lucked out by having a really good group of players and you know, we started to educate players around what was happening with their sleep cycles and educate the coach. And we started staying over a little bit more and starting to value some of the situational things. You know, what happens when a player gets home, you know, wow, it does take for some players an extra hour, you know, to wind down, unpack, you know, have some hydration, maybe throw highlights on and kind of start to wind down a little bit. So everything we did was sort of a deep dive around trying to enhance sleep by making some of these decisions. And I think what was, was really interesting about that is I would say now it's, it's pretty much a standard around the league for teams to stay over. I think just word got around with respect to how important sleep is and how important it is to try to mitigate the influence on circadian rhythms by playing sports at night. And it's high stress, you know, there's a lot of, a lot of cortisol, you know, that can, that can. Typically cortisol peaks in the, in the morning and then it drops during the day, but playing games at night, you know, it's physical, you know, bright lights. It really creates this, like this dysrhythmia with some of those hormones and that can influence sleep. And as you start to go through the cycles you actually learn too. Like one of the things that I found out about sleep is that if you typically sleep eight hours, but your standard clock, your circadian rhythm knows that you're typically in bed between 11 and seven, let's say to get those eight hours and then you go to bed between one and nine, that's also eight hours. But because between seven and nine, you're typically awake. You're not necessarily getting the restorative sleep and especially REM sleep. REM sleep typically occurs for the most part in the, in the latter three hours of your sleep cycle. So if you're interfering with, you know, the latter kind of 60 to 70% of your sleep cycle by having those last two hours occur at a time where you're normally awake, you're not getting into these restorative cycles. And so you can end up being asleep eight hours. But you can get this 50% reduction in REM sleep or, you know, a two thirds reduction in REM sleep, which now starts to affect all of the things we're talking about. You know, so it's eight hours, but it's not really eight hours. And so we sort of realize, okay, it's good to try to be in bed at a consistent time as much as possible. And so if you can, if you can potentially stay, you know, figure out, okay, what is my normal sleep time, whether that's eight hours, nine hours, whatever that block is, and then try to stay within an hour of that and build all your planning around that.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

That's typically what I, what I read. It's, don't deviate more than like an hour.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

Yeah, I think that's a really safe rule of thumb. And then if you do have to deviate for whatever reasons. Look, occasionally, you know, if a team takes a red eye or something, it'.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

Mid season time zone changes too. I mean, that becomes challenging. I mean, when they're setting up the schedule though. Yeah. If you're a New York team, you got to bounce to la. But are they, do they take that into account? Locations? Are they trying to move across the map maybe in like segments or in order? Sometimes you got to just go New York to LA and back to New York. Right. I mean, that's, that's unavoidable, isn't it?

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

That, that does happen. So typically if you go out west, if you're an eastern team, you stay out west, you play all your games and, or if you go out west or if you're a western team, you come in the east, you stay. Some of the central teams actually have it the worst.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

Yeah, I was thinking, because they're like.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

You gotta, yeah, they could have a team that's like, it's, it's two hours away from where they are in one direction and then they play another game that's two hours in the other direction. But that's a four hour difference.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

Yeah, that's brutal.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

Because they're in the middle. So you have teams like Winnipeg, Dallas, you know, their travel is actually pretty tough by virtue of the fact that they have teams in their division that are, that are, that are east and west of where they're located. So there is some time zone change there. But the challenge is that if you look at the schedule and you see 82 games, you know, mixed with playoff hockey and trying from a network standpoint, trying to plan those 82 games, so you're optimizing revenue, TV revenue based on what night of the week it is that you're playing against certain games, trying to make sure that you don't coincide with college football, you know, college basketball, things like March Madness, baseball, playoffs. So you have all these things you're trying to work around. And then on top of that, one of the trends in hockey from a networking standpoint that's, that's occurred over the last few years is that, is this idea that there are hockey fans all over the country. So typically it would be just in the market. So they would make sure, okay, if Chicago and Montreal are playing, we would make sure that we have a good time that works for people in Chicago, Montreal. But now there's this concept that, wait, somebody in LA might want to watch that game. And so we may want to try to schedule the LA game in a way that is, is not necessarily, you know, interfering with that game. So, so there's a, there's a handful of strategies that has been probably good for the league from a revenue standpoint.

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

Yeah.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

But it ain't helping the players.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

It's not helping the players.

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

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[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

Right.

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

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[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

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[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

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[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

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[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

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[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

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[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

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[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

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[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

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[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

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[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

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[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

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[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

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[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

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[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

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[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

What can I say? Thanks guys.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

These players, I think are getting a lot smarter when it comes to this stuff. Getting into some of the recovery modalities. There's always, I feel like every month there's a study where something is being glorified and then something's being, you know, just, just kind of destroyed or it's, it's turning around and it's taking something that is really, that, that can be really beneficial. You and I have had the discussion in the past about things like saunas and plunges recently through a post up about it was a regurgitation of some type of clickbait where recent research stated that people who cold plunge post workout lost 66 or didn't grow their muscles. 66. I'm going, yeah, this is, this is nonsense. Granted, I wouldn't do it it post lifting session, but there is a time and place for everything. Yeah.

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

You know, just because in my, my.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

Training I may not use it post lift. There are like, I was listening to some of your prescriptions on, you know, maybe just doing a cold plunge first thing in the morning or doing it on the off day. Why are we suddenly, you know, destroying things that can be really helping someone benefit and improve not only their performance, let's just say their well being.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

Yeah. There's no question it's, it is kind of sad. It's sort of how the world works is people are attracted to the loud message that's maybe contrary to the status quo or, or something that it comes across as like a secret. You know, everyone's doing it wrong. This is the right way. I think we're just naturally attracted to those types of things. And there's unfortunately, you know, science, science is, is one thing. You know, there's facts in, in a, that was, that were demonstrated in a controlled way, but the interpretation of that is another. And I think some people will interpret things in a way that serves an agenda from a promotional standpoint. And like you said, it's clickbait. So they're just, they're, they're pumping a message that maybe, you know, isn't consistent with necessarily what the study showed, or they're, they're trying to elicit some kind of response from people that isn't necessarily healthy response. So let's take cold tubs, for example. You know, what we know about a cold tub is that a cold tub creates this vasoconstriction. You know, you're, you know, decreasing that a little bit. Yeah, for sure. It's basically your blood vessels constricting, you know, tightening, and you're getting this increase in heart rate. You know, your body's trying to warm itself up because it's sensing that it's getting really cold. And you know, there are some metabolic responses that have been studied. You know, activation of brown fat and all these different types of things. And so, yeah, there's some, some influences of cold tub. Cold tubs have been around for a very long time. You know, I think if you look at Scandinavian countries, they've been using very hot saunas and, and cold plunges for a very long time. So I think anecdotally, I like this thing called circumstantial evidence. You know, if something is really helping people, they, they're probably likely to sustain it. And if it's not helpful, you know, the chances that a whole, you know, countries of people are going to sustain it for hundreds of years is probably pretty low. Yeah, yeah, so, so there, there has to be something beneficial. So to try to understand that, I think there's been a lot of research now, and people are liking it. And I don't think you could ever look at cold tubs and say, oh, it's always all good or always all bad or it always does this or it always does that. I think you look at the physiologic response, response, elevation of heart rate, release of catecholamines. So you get these kind of like, neurotransmitters that get released, you know, dopamine, norepinephrine, that you. That happens when you go in the cold tub. And then you get this, like, basal constriction, this tightening of, of blood vessels, and then what is the response thereafter? And so you could hold that if it's very, very cold and you have a high response, you know, that could have an effect for a very long period of time. Like, I've actually seen people that have gone on a cold tub, and it's very intense for them, and it actually causes a shivering effect. Like several minutes after that, like almost an hour after that, they still feel cold. They still feel like their body's responding to that cold tub. And then I know other people that are like master cold tubbers that could actually just go in there and breathe and actually not even really get any kind of, you know, thermogenic response like that, and then, you know, jump out and actually feel totally fine. So, you know, there's two different physiologic responses that are going in there. And this is where I think actually titrating the, the, the temperature and the time of the cold tub is important. So, you know, how well do you tolerate it? So you might do really well at, you know, a super low temperature. And then somebody else maybe needs to be 5 to 10 degrees above that to get the same physiologic response, depending on how experienced you are. Right. And so I've heard Stacy Sims talk about this about women who are in menopausal phases of their life. Like, they need less colds because their body's all already releasing a lot of stress hormones and a lot of these types of catechol, and it can actually be too much stress to expose them. To something that's that shocking to the system. And so a little bit less cold works really well for them. And then you have some people with this physiology or these bodies that are very well adapted to cold and they can jump in. And I think we've all seen this stuff with Wim Hof. I mean he could sit there for a day and it's just not even really affecting him because he's just been so adapted to it. So I think, I think what you want to look at it as a stress response, right? And how, what kind of a stress response do you want to create? Do you want to create a very, very small and short lived stress response and gain the benefits of those immediate catech means that get released? Or are you trying to create something that's a little bit more long term? Are you trying to do something that's prolonged or not? So for example, if you're doing it in the morning and then you're eating breakfast right after, if you do it intense enough, it actually might impair the digestive process. So, you know, you may not want to do that if you're going to be having a meal right after. Or if you're having a meal, maybe it's a short lived session, maybe it's a 32nd session. So I think, I think just as a starting point we can definitely get into protocols. But as a starting point, I think it's positive for people to know it's a tool. It's a tool that can be modified or modulated or dosed up, dose down, change the temperature, change the time, different time of day depending on what your goals are.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

What are some of the protocols that you like to follow? So in reference to cold plunging, let's just start there.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

So I really like this 30 seconds in the morning. So I actually think one of the things that's really helpful for people is dopamine. And so you have people that are just, they tend to be just like naturally high in dopamine. And I'm, I'm generalizing and paraphrasing here, but, but generally these are the go getters, you know, the people that just wake up and they're full of energy and everyone else is like, man, I wish I had a dose of their energy. They just never seem to stop. I don't know how they do it. They always seem like they're buzzing, kind of, kind of like you. Right. And so not everybody's in that, in that category, right. And some people, the biggest challenge that they have is, is actually being motivated and Getting going and having consistency and they're just wrestling all the time with what they want to do and what they have the energy to do. So I actually think that 30 seconds in the morning is enough to create a little response. It's not necessarily going to create the metabolic or the thermogenic effects of the cold tub, but it's enough to actually get you activated. Get a little bit of elevation of heart rate and your body can warm up relatively quickly after that, which allows you to either exercise or to eat some food or to go about your day.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

It's also not going to wipe you out. Right? You're not going to get out of there three minutes and then feel you're going to train an hour later. And then suddenly you're like, okay, I don't have the, you know, sometimes the cold plunging, even though it wakes me up a little bit later on you.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

Feel really relaxed and yeah, there's no question about it. So you have two things going on there. One, if you do a cold plunge and it's, it's actually tightening up your muscles and actually kind of creating an analgesic in a lot of your joints, that's not actually ideal before you want to train. You don't want to cool down to train, you actually want to warm up to train. So it's not really ideal to get too cold before you train. The second thing is that sometimes when you go through that process of, of going through a cold tub, you get this reciprocal of the nervous system, so you get this sort of activating fight or flight response and then you kind of get this reciprocation of the parasympathetic influence to recover from that. So if that's kicking in 15 minutes, 20 minutes later, that's not an ideal scenario before training as well. Right. And then there's the post workout stuff. So I really like the short protocols in the morning. I think they're really beneficial. Not enough to really inhibit, you know, food, not enough to really inhibit training. In the post workout protocols, I usually recommend these for people who have some kind of joint pain or something along those scenarios. So you could please be playing tennis or squash, or you could be playing a sport or going for a hike or doing something that's not necessarily muscle hypertrophy focused, but you could be a little bit sore. And I actually think that that analgesic response of just jumping in the cold tub and cooling down your body and cooling down your joints is very effective. It feels great mentally and it just allows people to sort of, you know, Rather than get some inflammation in their joints, like kind of after and kind of be blown up a little bit. Knee swelling, joint swelling, sore musc soreness. You know, you're able to kind of nip that in the butt really quickly with a cold tub. So a lot of people just feel good, you know, icing or jumping a cold tub immediately after an activity where they could have a little bit of joint stress or muscle stress, like a sport or like something that's recreational, even going for a run, for example. So that's why endurance, a lot of endurance athletes will use that. If your focus is muscle hypertrophy in general, you know, it probably doesn't have a huge influence post workout, but you could give yourself a couple of hours, you know, two to four hours and still hit that cold tub later.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

I just find it hard to believe that a few hours after a lifting session that suddenly, you know, three minutes of cold exposure is going to blunt all this muscle growth. Now I, that's, that's. I know I'm going to get my head bit chewed off for this, but it's just, it doesn't make sense to me. It's like, this is cold water. Cold water is suddenly like, I understand the body needs inflammation, I get it, but time it out, wait a few hours. I am a proponent of allow the body to feel. Feel good.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

Yeah.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

You know what if your knees bothering you and cold plunging is allowing you to recover, get some of that swelling down and then you can come back in and do lunges the next day. Great. Let's also look into your program and why that knee's bothering you.

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

I get it.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

But anything we can do to help enhance that recovery, I feel like, and improve energy, I feel like, are the number one goals. And then, you know, obviously with good programming, good movement quality, all these other good things are going to come.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

Yeah, I, I fully agree. Like, just, you're right intuitively. There's just something about that that doesn't really feel right. I get the idea of using a sauna post training. So you get some blood FL and you're able to distribute nutrients into the muscle. I get that. Okay. Cold tub is maybe like restricting that a little bit. We know now I pretty sure that these anabolic windows are not just like immediately post training. They're, they're pretty long in nature. So I always thought to myself, okay, well, what if you did a Coltub and for three minutes you're getting this sort of restriction of blood flow, but then thereafter you get a spike in blood flow from that ensuing vasodilation and ensuing relaxation process. So, you know, are the studies kind of designed in these narrow ways or in these isolated ways? And what are they recording in overall?

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

I think are.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

Well, you just said it with the anabolic window. I mean, 30 years ago, everyone's talking about you got to train one hour, right? Yeah, one hour, 15 minutes. Yeah, 30 minutes. It's got to be within this window. I've heard the number change from an hour to 30 minutes, to 15 minutes to immediately to having something that's going to spike your blood sugar level next. You know, bodybuilders are drinking Pepsi. You're like, what the hell is going on here? Like, this is. This is just nonsense. And then out of nowhere, they're like, well, that doesn't exist. Yeah, that. This is the perfect example. That, like, we're. We're. I think as a society, we're always learning, we're always trying to better ourselves, but just like, take this stuff with a grain of salt and you got to start. We need people to become a little smarter themselves and take the research and not just decide, I'm going to just do this because this is the be all, end all.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

Yeah.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

Try it. Apply it to yourself. If you're someone who's been cold, plunging, and it has been helping steer you in the right direction, I am not telling you to stop doing that. It was like there was a biohacker. I'm not going to mention his name, but he was talking about how oatmeal is worse for you than I ice cream because it spikes your blood sugar level. And I'm going, what the hell are we doing? This is irresponsible.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

I'm not.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

Listen, things can be done better. Yeah, right. Sure. Having carbs alone.

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

All right, yeah.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

But you take someone living wherever that's been eating a McDonald's breakfast that decides to start consuming some oatmeal because they're hearing the fiber is going to help. Is it a perfect meal? No. Is it putting them in a better space?

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

Yes.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

Why are you robbing them of that?

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

And people do that for clickbait.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

And I find it irresponsible.

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

It's probably the.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

About our industry, if there's one thing I dislike, it's that.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

Yeah, I. I fully agree. I'd love to see that study where they took people and fed them ice cream for a year and oatmeal for.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

A year and see what happens, you know, that'd be a fun one, you know? Ice cream. Yeah.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

I'm in the ice cream Category, you know, I'll take the, I'll take the hit of the. Yeah, all the weight gain, but that, like, you're, you're 100% right. I, I do think that we look at things in black and white and, and usually things are nuanced. And I've just learned over the years with my career, career to look at things in terms of like, what is the physiologic response or reaction to that? It's like, okay, you know, what's the stimulus? What's the response? And, and then that really helps you learn how to use it and why and where and, and how to modify it for each individual.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

No, it kind of, it doesn't have to be a rapid fire here, but I want to just throw some quick modalities at you and just get your, get your opinion on them. Saunas. I know you're, I know you're a big fan.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

Yeah, huge fan.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

What are some of the quick protocols that you recommend or you follow on that?

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

Yeah, I follow protocol of like four times a week. Week. 180 degrees Fahrenheit, roughly 20 minutes.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

Yeah.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

So I've seen that protocol around. Yeah. And I've seen that with some research and longevity and whatnot. And so I generally try to follow that. I'm a big fan of sauna post workout. I like sauna before bed, actually. Anecdotally. Just had a lot of people, including myself, done really well with sleep.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

It's helped me drastically.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

It's fantastic. Yeah. And obviously your, your body temperature heats up and then as you start to cool your body temperature, that, that kind of goes with falling asleep and winding down and getting into deep sleep. So lots of, you know, it's, I'm not surprised that improves longevity. I have to think that many things underlie that, but probably a lot to do with blood flow, a lot to do with strengthening the cardiovascular system. So, so big fan. I, I do like, like higher heats for myself, you know, 180 to me, to 200, like somewhere in that, that kind of zone. So I think the heat matters. And what I've tried to do, if you have a sauna that maybe is not quite 180, maybe you're getting to 155. 160. I would just extend the, the time frame duration. Yeah. I don't know if that's really been studied at all different heats to see, you know, what compares to what. But, you know, I just think logically, that's how I think through it. You know, if it's if I'm getting at 155, 160, maybe I'm going 30 minutes.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

Do you guys use red light therapy?

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

Yeah, I'm a big fan of red light therapy. Again, blood flow. I know there's a real angle and narrative around mitochondria and what it does at the mitochondrial level. Just, just anecdotally seen really good results. And the cool thing about it is you're just laying there, you know, which is great. I really like the red light beds. I think they're fantastic. So, yeah, big fan.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

I just got a red light bed in my house. I feel spoiled. But I've been honestly jumping in there 20 minutes a morning, four to five mornings a week. And it's just, I get some breathing in there. I'll throw a podcast on there. Sometimes if I don't get in the morning post workout, I might jump into that, then a sauna. Yeah. It's just become a nice part of my routine. I actually had black sunspots on the back of my triceps.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

Really?

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

Wow. And one month and they disappeared. Wow. And that had two years.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

Wow.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

I was like, oh, my God. I went to my dermatologist, Dr. Gary Goldenberg. Give him a shout out.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

Yeah.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

And I thought I was going to just live with it. And they're gone now. So I was completely shocked because I got a great response off of that. Other things.

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

Compression boots.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

Fireflies. Yeah, we were talking about that. What's your. What's your opinion?

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

Yeah, we did a deep dive on fireflies today. And yeah, came across these probably about 15 years ago actually. And, and I read some studies. I think it was, you know, decreasing DOMS in athletes and decreasing creatine kinase by about 50%. So I knew you could enhance recovery with these. And the, you know, these are essential for people that don't know the firefly. Check them out. But they're basically like a little band aid. You know, sort of like something that sticks on the outside or just below the knee. You press a button and there's just a little stimulation of the impulse. Yeah, impulse. Common peroneal nerve basically just creates a little contraction of the tibialis anterior muscle. But to send blood to that muscle, the blood flow has to go all the way down and then all the way back up. So you sort of just got this like pumping mechanism, like circulation.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

It's just increasing circulation.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

It's fantastic. And I've actually found it. Great. I've had athletes that sleep with it. A lot of athletes use them back to back games and actually feel really good with their legs. The second part of the game you mentioned flying, which I think is brilliant.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

Oh my God, it's, it's become a game. I just flew to Dubai.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

Yeah.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

And literally put them on my knees, walk through security, no problem. Every flight I go on, never get. It's a non issue. On the 15 hour flight to Dubai and back, I probably had them turned on four or five hours and I am 100. It contributed to my reduction in jet lag. Granted, I use something called fly kit which helps lower oxidative stress. That's another great product out there. Any other modalities that you guys feel like you're really using before we jump to some calls.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

I like that you're getting through the security, by the way, with that. I remember like way back in the day when I've had some like hardcore periods in my life where I was doing stuff and I had like a stem unit with the wires and the, and basically stuck onto my abs.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

And.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

I was like, I, I, there's something in my head. I was like working on my glutes or I, you know, I found some like postural things and I was like, yeah, I just need, really need to stem my abs during this flight. And I just remember getting a lot of looks with the wires going under my shirt. It was not ideal. So I think the lady next to me was like bracing for an explosion. So that was a bad idea.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

I've not had a problem with. Granted, I, I just did Europe with it. I did a couple time zone changes. I even wore to Toronto to come see you as a 55 minute flight.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

Yeah.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

Had it on. I just find it's beneficial when I'm sitting, when I'm doing a zoom call, when I'm in a meeting, I'll actually wear them a lot and I'll just kind of kick them on lightly. And I just feel like it's helping enhancing circulation to where I'm standing up or getting out of a car. My body just feels a little bit more primed, a little bit more loose.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

Fantastic. Yeah. And there, one thing I will say is certainly with athletes, even the most serious athletes, like practicality matters, you know, if something gets heavy, it's hard to carry around. If it's, if it's impractical or if it's inconvenient, it really makes it challenging. And so I really like that about the fireflies additional modalities. PEMF therapy is actually something I really like. I know there's a lot of different mats and tools and devices out there that range from very expensive to relatively inexpensive. But I do think that there's, there's some good use for penf. I think microcurrent in general, like different types of things that are actually create current into the muscle can be really, really good. There's something called frequency specific microcurrent that I've been a fan of for a long time. And there's different types of units similar to that one that I think are very effective. So yeah, anything that's creating blood flow or creating any kind of like energy stimulus into the muscle I think is going to be really beneficial.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

Awesome. No, no substitution for good rest and proper nutrition and good quality program design. But I have found that these things that you're mentioning right now, if you're able to get them in there not only physically but mentally, just giving those athletes, giving people a little bit of an edge. If it's mixing in one little thing for three minutes, it's just a nice place to put our clients, our athletes mentally, I think it's going to give them some Runway and it's going to give them some good positive reinforcement to be able to continue on all that. So, um, we're going to take some questions and by the way, this, this conversation made me realize that you and I are going to need to do this like another two, three times. This is going to be another excuse for you to come up because we just covered like a spec of I think, all the things that I wanted to cover. But next time you come out, we're going to have you on again and we'll just cover a different topic. So I know we've got some questions coming in right now. Perfect. All right, so we have one of my challengers on. This is Jess from Germany who just had, I think she had some form of Lasix done recently. I might be getting that incorrect, but I know she had eye skin surgery. I saw her post something recently and it says she's doing great. She's recovered. She plays a lot of handball. Very athletic. Been part of Don Con. Cool, great, great person.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

Cool.

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

Jess, you there?

[Jess (Caller from Germany)]

Good to see you. Can you hear me?

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

Yeah.

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

I don't recognize you without glasses now.

[Jess (Caller from Germany)]

Sorry, I'm a new person.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

Good to see you.

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

This is my buddy Andy over here. We're excited to have you on.

[Jess (Caller from Germany)]

Nice to meet you.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

Nice to meet you.

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

So what questions do you.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

Do you. You have.

[Jess (Caller from Germany)]

I was actually wanting to talk about injury management. Well, Don, you know, I, I have a couple of injuries. I'm an athlete myself, I play handball and well, part of the journey sometimes is an injury. And I don't want to talk about the physical part because I feel like we talk a lot about this. I like to talk about the mental part of injuries. So how do you approach like your athletes about the mental part? Because I remember sitting on the sideline forever after my ACL tier was like tortured structure and I feel like we don't talk enough about this part of injury management.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

Take it to you, man, such a good question. Thanks for bringing that topic up. So I've definitely had some really high profile athletes that have had some really traumatic, you know, injury experiences, you know, physically and mentally. And there's a lot certainly that enters your head. I think one of the reasons why it is so devastating is because the higher the level of sport, sport, the harder you work for every little inch of progress and you start to become very sensitive to these positive associations with improvement and with growth. And anytime you have like, even, even a small setback, you know, you start to become very sensitive to those as well. So then you have a major setback and you know, your body has, has actually been adapted to respond to that as very negative in terms of, of what are the consequences of this. So if it's acl, you know, am I permanently going to lose my speed or my power or my ability to change directions or is the time loss here going to set me back so much that everything I've been working for is now in jeopardy? I think the best I have, I can honestly say I've worked with a number of athletes that have been through that, like Sidney Crosby, for example, missed a year and a half with a major concussion. There's a lot of people that weren't sure whether he was going to play hockey again after that and, and he ended up, you know, going on to have, you know, what may go down as one of the greatest careers in history. I'd worked with a swimmer actually named Dara Torres who, yeah, compete. Dara competed in, in the 2008 Olympics in Beijing as a, as a 41 year old, she, I think she was about 15 years older than the next oldest swimmer in her event. And at that time in her career she had had something like nine knee surgeries. I've seen a lot of athletes that have, have actually become stronger through the injury. So what the injury presents an obstacle and I think the obstacle is the way, you know, I think that when you look at it, it's going to require you to change your mindset and look for areas of opportunity that you hadn't looked for before. It also can make you a little bit more in tune with your body. So you start to become aware of things. You become a little bit more prepared. You start to develop a comfort level with discomfort. And as you start to push, you know, nowadays, certainly with the science and the rehab and the technology, not only can you come back to full physical capabilities, a lot of people actually come back better because of what they've gone through mentally and emotionally, and they just become more resilient, and they manage the ups and downs a little bit more. And I think on the other end of that, you know, on the positive end of that mountain, is. Is just gratitude. You gain so much more appreciation for having a healthy body when you get back to that state, and you tend to savor the moment a little bit more.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

I think, Jess, one other thing I want to add is I'm not saying I'm happy about all the injuries that I've had, right? Because there's things that happen in the moment. It sucks, and you're bummed out.

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

But I think some of the most.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

Creative I've been with my own body and figuring things out and the variability of my training came from when I broke my hands or broke my ribs or broke my knees or all these things that happen in the moment. You're like. Like, this sucks. And then out of nowhere, you start focusing on training different areas or different energy systems, and you learn to start working around things. And now looking back on everything, knock on wood. I mean, unfortunately, I've been able to recover well from everything. I'm almost, in a way, grateful I had to go through those speed bumps, and I'm grateful that I was able to learn from that stuff. And I was grateful I was able to come back stronger. So fortunately, it was nothing, you know, that had changed my life significantly. And I pray it never does does. But sometimes when we're exposed to specific things, like, you know, Andy says, I think there is this massive mental component that you're going to come back from even stronger. And I think physically, you might learn to do things a little bit differently and even trust in the process and trust your body and say, wow, the body's strong.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

Yeah.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

The mind's strong. It's resilient. You know, Sidney Crosby, I mean, I remember when that happened. I mean, ever. Most people were like, he's done.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

Yeah.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

And most people, I mean, when you weren't, you're not in pit, you're not around, and people are like, you Know, not never knowing the guy, but hearing from Andy what he's like. I mean, he's far from done right. He's a phenomenal athlete and obviously a very driven person. So it's been remarkable to see him with his comeback.

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

But with you, just.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

Just what Andy's saying right now is just keep pushing along and, you know, keep learning, keep asking good questions and really, really proud of you.

[Jess (Caller from Germany)]

Yeah. I remember when I had my first aclt. I never lifted a weight before, ever. And then I started weightlifting because I was thinking, thinking, what can I do to bulletproof my knee that this never happens again? And this is what the mindset part that Andy said. And, yeah, I think it's really important to go for that and not just let yourself down and say, oh, I'm injured. I cannot do this again and just be in this rabbit hole. Really have to. Have to get out of that. And. Yeah, be more flexible. That's right.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

And it's always challenging, especially with these physicians who aren't like, orthopedists, and they don't really understand rehabilitation. And you go and, oh, you're hurts, just stop training. And you're just kind of like, well, that's not always the answer. And a lot of. Of times, sometimes it is right there. There are times where people have to stop, but most of the time, you know, you injure your right arm, you got a left arm, you got a lower body. It's like there's things you can do, you know, to not only, you know, speed up the process, but mentally. I mean, it's. It's. Anytime I've ever been injured, the first. I mean, one of the first people I'm calling is Jordan Shallow or Dr. Charlie Weingroff. And I've got my orthopedist doc Bill Healy. And it's like the game plan is. Is how soon can I get back? Yeah, that's the game plan.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

Always. Yeah, it's. It probably is on a broader level, like, what is sport? Right? Sport is really. It's. It. There's a love of. Of perhaps the game, you know, that you're playing, but also it's. It's to see what you're made of, right. And try to get the best out of yourself and to just achieve this growth and it just, you know, this victories and. And the opportunities that you. That you can have when you come back from an injury stronger, they just taste a lot sweeter. And I think there's just more emotion and. And just more appreciation of it. And I think the greatest sport moments are actually the moments where an athlete, you know is knocked down with some kind of injury and then they rise above and they come back even stronger.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

I agree. Great question.

[Jess (Caller from Germany)]

Thank you so much for answering.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

See you later, hun. Great seeing you.

[Jess (Caller from Germany)]

Bye bye.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

So we, we got to do this again because we did not scratch the surface. So next time you're coming in New York, same routine we got to get you on. We'll cover different topics. But listen, thank you again. Means a lot. I'm so excited about our friendship and all the good stuff that we have in the future. I also want to thank the Post. They've been incredible in hosting us here and this feels like just like a great home and I'm very, very grateful. So until next time, brother.

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

Thank you again.

[Andy O'Brien (Strength Coach and Guest)]

Awesome. Thanks, doc. Appreciate it.

[Host 1 (Possibly Chip Gains)]

All right, great.

[Host 2 (Possibly Joy Gains)]

The views, information or opinions expressed in the series are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of Chip and Joy Gains. Buy no audio nor Magnolia the holidays.

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