← Stronger with Don Saladino
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Blind Nil Audio.
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Hey, everyone, we're back for another episode of Stronger, and I'm here to bring back on a good friend of mine, Dr. Dwayne Jackson. Dwayne originally came on episode number one to discuss longevity. Now he's coming back on to discuss peptides. Now, I know a lot of you are so confused about what peptides are, the difference between GLPs like Ozempic or Semalglutide, and Dwayne really breaks this down. Dwayne has been researching peptides, I think, for over 30 years. You know, he was a professor and this is one of his favorite categories to discuss. So I don't really know anyone who's more well versed in this conversation. He stressed these drugs can be life changing for people who are severely obese, but not a quick fix for someone just looking to lose five to ten pounds. So I think by listening to this episode, you're going to understand if you should be approaching a doctor about seeing if you're a candidate to take one of these. And this shouldn't be a quick fix. This should be something where you're coming in with the thought process of making a lifestyle change. Toward the end, he emphasized that peptides are powerful, but they need to be used responsibly and under medical supervision, not just because they're trending online. And this is something that I always urge you guys to think about. You might hear different opinions or you might hear something online that's spoken with conviction and such certainty. You need to go get a second opinion on a lot of this stuff because out there today there is so much nonsense being made up of, which is why I'm trying to bring to you the best experts in the field to discuss these topics. Guys, let's get started. Dr. Jackson, welcome back.
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Cheers. Good to be back.
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Listen, man, you, you, you know how I feel about you. I think you are one of the most brilliant. Probably when I say underrated, I want to say that because you don't have 5 million followers, but I, I've seen that you can have a with any human being. And there's probably two people on the planet that I'm going to, besides obviously be you and Dr. Lyon, Dr. Lyon being one of my closest friends, as you are. But there's a topic right now that I feel like has become like the Wild West. I mean, most people don't know how to explain it. They don't understand what they do, how many of them they're out there, whether it's regulated or not, whether they Work or not, but that's peptides.
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Yeah. And I'm deep into those.
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And I know you understand peptides as much if not more than any human being I've ever.
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Well, I actually did my PhD in peptides.
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Well then here we go.
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I studied neuropeptide Y. When I first started my PhD when I was at Yale, the principal investigator said to me, he goes, what do you want to study? And I go, I want to study peptides.
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B
What year was this?
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This is 2000. And it was 2000.
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That's good. That's 25. I didn't even hear, I never heard anyone mention a peptide. I remember where I was working, where I was living in 2000. I never heard peptide in 2000.
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Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, so I was, I was, I was, I was really interested in them because a peptide is simply a few amino acids linked together. Right.
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B
And it's really short. It's a combination of them. Right?
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Yeah. But they can be as little as like three amino acids. Right. So, so what's really cool about that is that, you know, if you have arginine, alanine, lysine. Right, Those three amino acids, I'm just making the, making up, making up a link here. But those three amino acids can have a whole variety of biological functions.
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B
So it's really, it's, it's, it's the combination of these short chain amino acids. So when you bring these amino acids together, they should have some type of. I don't even want, in a way restorative. Would that be the right word? Or is it not really restorative?
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Well, it could be performance. It depends on what peptides you're looking at. You know, it could be in my case, a neuropeptide Y. It could be a deleterious, you know, a bad thing where it can lead to, you know, stress responses becoming vascular disease. Okay, so, but the peptides as we're, as we're talking about them in, in this, in this context are really the compounds that are not currently, most aren't currently FDA approved and the ones that are, are becoming quite popular. So for example, insulin is a peptide. So there, there's one, there's one for everyone.
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B
That's like we've been hearing it.
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Yeah. But right now, now we have these peptide products that are analogs for GLP1s or they're agonists for GLP1.
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So would that be like Ozempic, Manjaro.
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Manjaro and then now retrue tides coming out? You know, it's still in I think phase three clinical trial.
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And those are more of your, those are more of the peptides that people are taking for weight loss.
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Absolutely, yeah. And I mean glucagon, like peptide is one of the satiety hormones. So it makes sense that if you take an analog of that or something that at least hits its receptor that it's going to make you feel fuller.
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Right.
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You know, for me, these, these new, if we're talking about, you know, these new GLPs, Manjaro, you know, Tirzepatide or semaglutide, these are really interesting compounds. And I have to say, you know me, I, I dig into things a little deep sometimes. So I actually decided, okay, I gotta see what the big, the big, the big attraction is here to see what this stuff does. Because I had a lot of clients that were coming to me trying to figure out their diet while they're being prescribed.
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Did you jump on it?
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Oh yeah, I took, I did for like six weeks I couldn't take, which.
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Which by the way I completely respect because I think if someone's going to be able to talk about something, they should be able. Hence why I've never spoke about, you know, hormone replacement therapies nor think someone with my expertise should be.
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But yeah, I've been a human g guinea pig all my life. So yeah, so, so for me it was like how do I understand what my clients are feeling or going to feel when I'm saying to them like this probably time for you to be using one of these compounds. High blood glucose, you know, 350 pounds you need, you know, you're a couple hundred pounds overweight. And it's amazing actually how well these compounds, terzepatite especially work on food noise.
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B
Food noise meaning like wanting to have additional. Like you had no cravings.
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Yeah, you wanna what you want. And people probably watching this will be like, oh, I know exactly what he's talking about. We're talking like you didn't know. Your head was constantly going like, oh, this trace goes mumbling in your head. And being a former bodybuilder and someone who force fed for most of my teen years into my like 30s, I woke myself up at 3am so I could eat, you know, every three hours. Like stupid stuff like that. It's amazing how much food noise you have and you don't even realize you have. So for a lot of people those particular peptides have been really, I, I think probably the biggest innovation in, in dealing with severe cases of obesity or being overweight coupled with metabolic issues.
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Right now, I, I'm the believer that to each his own, right, in the sense of not where, like, we'll do what you want. But I, I truly believe that there is a, there is a serious place for these peptides in people's lives. Even though a lot of the, I mean, is the research conclusive yet? Are there still things we're finding out about it?
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Well, for the glps, the research is relatively conclusive, but I think we're finding through, you know, now, now it's like the big clinical trial because everybody's using it that certain everybody. But, you know, there's a lot of people on, on these drugs. And so, you know, we'll see how it all kind of falls out in the end. But for right now, this is like, you know, for people that cannot lose weight because of, you know, just food issues, it's amazing how well they work. And it also highlights the importance of satiety hormones in the body and how really, you know, when we say, well, just eat less and run around more to people, that's not going to always help.
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Right?
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Because if you're lacking this, you know, an abundance of satiety hormones or satiety peptides naturally, then you will have a greater propensity to have this food noise and want to eat than say, an average person that doesn't have that going on. And so now we're starting to learn about the, you know, the cascade of events that occur in one who's on a journey. You know, they just cannot lose weight. And now we're seeing it happen pretty linearly and pretty consistently.
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Let's, let's go through. Because we, we're starting with the weight loss drugs, which I think is, I think, I think is appropriate. And we're not jumping into some of the more, call it restorative ones. BBC 157. All these other peptides, which I think we can go down a big rabbit hole. I think a lot of people are going to want to hear about this. I may have some questions for you about bpc, but can you talk about some of the pros to getting on some of these GLPs?
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Yeah, so, so one of the things that we know medically is that any, for people that are, you know, severely overweight and have metabolic issues, like metabolic syndrome, where, you know, we have hyperinsulemia, like high insulin levels in the face of high glucose levels, inflammation and dyslipidemia. So cholesterol levels are all over the place. Any diet that makes them lose weight will result in a greater effect on health than not doing it all.
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Any diet that's going to help them lose weight is going to be beneficial.
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That's right.
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Is, is what you're saying, because they're already, what you're saying is they're already in a, in a, in a worse high inflammatory state. So just do what you can to get the weight off, is what you're saying.
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Yeah, we know, we know this. Now, that doesn't mean like starving yourself or any sort of disorders like that. But I'm talking about. You want, I'm talking about if someone had to utilize McDonald's to lose weight.
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And it worked, get the weight off.
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Get the weight off. And that's going to be your biggest health move. So, so we do know that.
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So whether it's keto, whether it's carnivore, whatever it is, get that weight off because you're already morbidly obese or you're already.
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Whatever work. Whatever works. Whatever works, right.
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Sure.
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But the, you know, the real, the real essence of these is that they, they end up when people think they're broken. When you're on these, these medications, you gotta flip it over. Okay, so I work with about six clients that are on tirzepatide. What happens is these people that couldn't control their eating now all of a sudden don't eat. And so we gotta watch malnutrition. And it can be a big problem. And it's really, it's a real neat psychological experiment because I do a lot of motivational interviewing with my clients. And one of the biggest things I see is, I'll say, They'll say, well, this isn't working. And then I'll pull up their. I, I should. They share their apple help with me, right? And I'll pull it up and they'll be like, I don't know, that linear dive in weight over the last month, you know, we've lost £12 this month. They're like, I thought it would have been much, much more, much bigger. But you wanna know what? I haven't been really eating all that well and everything else. And I'll say to them, what'd you eat today? And for the first time in their life, they're sitting there going, like, what did you eat today? Oh, that was last night. Oh.
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B
And so, so you don't really see. So it's not where they're taking these peptides and they're not craving McDonald's or pizza and out eating that stuff. It's normally shutting off that signal to where do you ever see people taking these peptides where they are eating a poor diet and they're just using it as an excuse to. To eat whatever they want?
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Well, here's, here's the problem. So, yeah, yeah, I mean, people, people can eat like, you know, some crappy food. And the reason why is because, and this, these data are just starting to come out is that when you get on these GLP1s, so to speak, they decrease your desire to eat fat and eat protein. So the carbs still kind of sit, sit in there. Okay. But like, thinking about having a big greasy steak is like, makes you feel nauseous. And so, like, that's why in my experiment, I had to, like, I had to stop it because I was like, oh, my God, this stuff's powerful. But now I don't have any metabolic issues.
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B
Right, so did you lose any weight when you were on it?
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Yeah, because I didn't eat. I had to get off it. And it was like two weeks.
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B
What happened to your strength? What happened to your training?
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My training, My training was okay until I got glycogen depleted. And then, and then, and then I had to, like, you know, so I started losing all my. Losing my energy in my workouts, and then I had to start, you know, feeding myself better. But, but it was a neat experiment for me because I wanted to see, like, what the feeling is. And the feeling really is, like, kind of full. And you wake up in the morning, and if you're someone that likes to have like, you know, a big meal sometimes at night, and you wake up in the morning like, oh, I shouldn't have had that big meal.
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Right?
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That happens without having the big meal. Like, you feel guilty in the morning going, man, I shouldn't eat in that. You think to yourself, I didn't even eat anything last night. That's the danger of these, these, these drugs in my eyes. And that's why it requires some thoughtful processes in making sure that you're eating square meals every day, at least three square meals every day, because you will lose the weight as it starts to resolve your metabolic issues. It does lower blood glucose quite substantially very quickly. It does resolve cholesterol issues quite well. And so the idea is now that you don't have food noise and you're losing weight and you know your body's not broken, now is the time to do the rehab. And a lot of times.
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What do you mean by. Can you define rehab?
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Yeah, so, so, so to start working on, okay, well, now I'm not eating the Oreo cookies that are in my clock cupboard. So now I'm going to start not buying Oreo cookies. And so that way, you know, if I, if and when I get off these drugs, I've created habits because I already know the noise, what the noise sounds like, but sounds like that's a.
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Lot of discipline for, for people. Right. So it's not.
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When you're on it. Yeah, when you're on it, you could have to your cupboards and.
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Right. But if you're getting on these GLP, is that the best way to put it? GLPs. Can I, can I call them?
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Everybody's calling them.
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Yeah. So if you're to get on these GLPs, most people are getting on the GLPs because I think they're feeling like it's too difficult or they want a quick fix. Right. It basically down because we, we, we could. If someone was. I always say, if I'm going to give you a million dollars right now in the next month to not eat any crap and exercise the way I'm telling you to exercise, are you going to be able to do it? I think most people are going to end up following it to a T if you screw. Right.
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Possibly, Possibly.
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Right. But, but, but, but you still need to have discipline. If you get on this GLP, these GLPs and then you get off it after a period of time, which you're going to have to do, this can't be an open door for you to just start going back to your old habits. You'll gain that weight back. Now if your energy's low and you're under caloried, which you are, what starts happening to exercise? I mean, I would imagine bone density, muscle loss, these are all factors. And if you're not in training or you don't have motivation or the strength to train, this could also work as a double negative towards you.
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Oh, and it definitely, it definitely does. But the biggest ones I see are in like hydration.
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B
Really?
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Oh yeah. Like so, so like, you know, people are cramping when they work out. At least the people that I've, I've talked to and the, and then the lack of, you know, having any sort of glycogen storage so, you know, sugar stored in our muscles and in our liver for us to maintain blood glucose, it also would be much lower because we just can't consume the amount of food that would be needed to do so. When you're on these drugs, would, would.
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Any peptide dehydrate you? Because I Had a friend of mine who got on like a BPC and felt like his muscles were always cramping. Is that, is that.
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No, it's more so just lack of eating and. Yeah, and so, so like you can be drinking all the water you want, but if you're not getting in enough carbohydrate, enough salts and magnesium and everything else to hold on to that water, then you're just, you're just peeing it right out. Right, right. So, so it's, you know, they're, they're remarkable substances. They are, should be used in context, in, in a, in, you know, in an actual prescribed context under supervision, but also in my eyes, highly important to undergo some sort of therapy. And so I usually recommend to my clients to use cbt, cognitive behavioral therapy to understand what the noise sounded like when they don't have it anymore, because then you can deal with it. And so that's where I see the biggest benefit to these, is that for the first time people realize, oh, this is what normal people feel like. They don't constantly have a thing in their head saying like, what am I going to eat in the next five minutes? Or whatever it is, gets rid of that noise. And that's, you know, that in essence is something that can be treated if, you know, you can get rid of it with a, you know, a peptide GLP1 or whatever else because you can see both sides of the fence now.
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B
First off, we would not be able to do this incredible show without our special sponsors. I'm very grateful to Cozy Earth. A couple things. They sent me this bubble cuddle blanket. It's a bubble cuddle blanket. I'm a 48 year old grown man. You'd think I wouldn't want to lay in this. And my dog Sambuca, it's the same color of him. So when I go into my room, Sambuca's wrapped in this blanket. I can't tell he's in it and he looks comfortable. And the next you know, I'm laying on a bubble cuddle blanket, like in love with this thing. But guys, I'm telling you, this thing is magic. You are going to, your dogs are going to love it, your partner's going to love it. Ladies, I don't care. This thing is unbelievable. And you know what's fantastic about it too? It's like when I go down to the couch and I'm watching the Mets lose, I like grabbing a blanket and throwing it on me and it's just, it's been like a great throw. Blanket for me. So my dog loves it when we're laying in bed and then I love it when I'm on the couch. So great stuff. Check it out. And something that I love even more than the bubble cuddle blanket are these cozy earth bamboo sheets. And the reason is, is that I get really hot. My body just gets hot in bed. Like my, my wife's gonna kill me because the thermostat's on 64, 65 degrees. She's wrapped in the Cozy Earth's bubble cuddle blanket to keep warm. And I'm sitting there like, how do I get my bed cooler? And these cozy earth bamboo sheets are actually cooling. Head to cozy earth.com I'm going to read now. Head to cozyearth.com and use my code stronger for up to 20% off. That's cozyearth.com code stronger. S T R O N G E R. And if you get a post purchase survey, make sure to let them know you heard about Cozy Earth right here. We want, you know, we want a pat on the back from Cozy Earth. We like them so much that we want them to know and feel like, you know what? We, me, you, we have their back. Right. These partnerships are very important to us. So head to cozyearth.com and use my code stronger for up to 20 off. That's cozy. C o z y e a r t h.com code stronger. Thanks, guys. All right, guys, first off, I have to thank my sponsors, one of them right now being Mitopure. Thank you guys for, for just being a loyal sponsor of ours. Probably. I think it was our first one. Was our first sponsor. Yeah, I think it was. I'm saying it was. So they have a few different products. They have Mitopure, which is a urolithin, a product which is why I am in my 60s and I look like I'm in my early 40s. So I've been taking this product for a while. My skin, my lines, my energy level, my mitochondrial function is fantastic. And this is one of those supplements. I'm not. I like supplements. But you got to understand, I really value the importance of nutrition and sleep. Mito pure their Urolithin A supplement. I take four capsules a day. That's a thousand milligrams. I take it religiously and I really can't travel without it now because I have seen benefits come from this. With probably about three to six months, I just started feeling like my skin was glowing a little bit more. I was feeling a bit younger. I was okay I'm not 60, I'm 48 cats out of the bag now. They also have these gummies that are delicious and they also have a powder which is fantastic as well, if you're into powder. So that's it, guys. Mitrepure again, thank you again, Timeline. Thank you. And timeline is offering 20 off your first order of Mito Pure. Go to timeline.com backslash stronger. That's t I m e l I n e dot com stronger. I can't believe I actually had to read how to spell timeline. I did though. Thanks, guys. So someone who's going to explore, you know, with, with a, with a GLP1, they are to get on it with supervision. They are to pretty much cycle on and off of it. Is this something that you should be taking all the time?
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A
So, so in the, in the medical field, it's not something that you're, you're going to cycle on and off of. In fact, a lot of physicians would say you stay on it, it indefinitely. Yeah, indefinitely. But in the, the peptide industry, the research peptide side, there are a lot of people that now are now playing around with like micro dosing multiple doses per week instead of one big shot on a Sunday and going on and off of it. And these, but these people aren't clinical cases.
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But do, do people adapt from being on it all the time? Is it something where just it stops working? It's not as potent?
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I don't know. It's, it's, I, I, not in my experience and not probably in most people's experiences. So I mean, a lot of, a lot of, a lot of the fitness folks use them while they get ready for shows because it shuts down the, the need for any sort of like, you know, cheat meals or anything like that. Because that's actually what you're doing also with that. You're, you're elevating GLP1 when you, you know, have a high carbohydrate, carbohydrate refeed meal.
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B
That's, that's interesting. I'm wondering if microdosing would be a suitable approach to where it's not as potent, but it is shutting off that trigger mechanism that's making you to want to have the McDonald's or the ice cream. If we ridded people of all that without the effects of, you know, starving yourself, I think it could be pretty, you know, maybe this could be pretty beneficial. But it sounds like all the negativity of it really comes down to people becoming nutrient deficient.
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A
That's, that's Pretty much what it is. And that's why we get muscle loss and everything else, you know, if we don't get enough food. And then the aversion to protein, which is well published now, aversion to fat and protein really make it difficult to get that, that protein in. Right, right. So. And that's what you needed the most is when you're in calorie deficits like that.
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B
A friend of mine recently reached out about her cousin who's, you know, in her early 20s and has put on a significant amount of weight because of, you know, being at school. And she said that she's not really incorporating good habits. Really struggling to get over that edge now for a woman that young. Is this something that you find, Are there any warning signs here or if someone's really stuck at that point, what don't you want, you don't want people to start using this as an excuse? I'm talking about if it's really becoming a problem and someone's, you know, facing a wall where they're like, I don't know what to do at this point. I mean, is this something that someone that young should be exploring?
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A
Well, if they're young and they're in, you know, in the morbidly obese category, even the obese category, and it's starting to show signs of, you know, we've talked about biological age in the past. Signs that they're actually, you know, be becoming aged because of, because of their, their, their inflammation and everything else is associated then. Yes, it's a great, great treatment. The way I see it is the only other treatment that I've been able to really, you know, compare this to would be gastric banding. And gastric banding is like, in my eyes, like when you start.
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B
Can you explain that a little bit, Rosso?
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A
Yeah. So basically you're, you're making, you're making the stomach smaller by, by banding it. And there's gastric bypass surgery. Yeah, it's surgery on your gastrointestinal tract, which we now know. And I'm very, very, you know, deep into it, that the gut, Digestive health is key to health throughout the body. It's not just gut brain access. It's got everything access because all those organs that sit in here are all part of the digestive system. And so when you start cutting pieces out of it, you know, for those reasons, we can end up with a lot of, a lot of bigger problems down the road.
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B
Staying on the whole peptide topic because I still feel like there's A lot more.
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A
Yes. Let's jump in. Let's jump into some, you know, we've talked about longevity and biological age and stuff.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Big ones right now are these ones that, you know, enhance mitochondria. Right. So to speak. And so we've got. We've got a number of different ones out there. The, you know, we have One's called like Mot C. We have one called SS31 and they're all.
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B
How many peptides do you think are out there? It sounds like a thousand of them.
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A
Oh, there's thousands of thousands. Yeah, yeah. However many sequences you can, like, do with, you know, with, you know.
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B
No, because I'm going to find this very interesting. But sourcing of these peptides, that seems to be where.
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A
Well, I got a guy, but it.
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B
Seems to be where there's a lot of question mark because when you go speak to a physician, they are. It reminds me of creatine 30 years ago, right. Where every physician's like, don't do this. This is. You don't need. It's like it's some banned substance. It's like it's in. It's in meat. Like creatine's in meat. Like we're consuming creatine, like now, you know, doctors, I feel like, are a little less educated on it and they're immediately going to, you know, well, it's valid. Where is it being sourced from? Well, we have a third party that was listening to Rogan recently. I wanted to listen to. He brought on his peptide guy and his guys talking about how, you know, they third party test everything and they have literature on everything. But how do I know that? Like, how do I. I mean, what, what is it? Just because you're saying that, does it. Am I going to be able to read this data or is someone else going to be able to read this data? And is it. Is it clean? Do we know where it's being manufactured, processed, stored, call it what you want. I'm always, I always question sourcing. And then I'd like to get into, you know, all the different types of peptides.
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Yeah, so. So sourcing is kind of, you know, when we talk about peptides, the. For the most part, like. So peptides and small molecules kind of get mixed up together. And peptides are amino acid strings and small molecules are designer drugs. Most peptides are naturally occurring things in the body. And so, for example, like, you know, BPC 157's body protection compound. 157 and it's, you know, derived from the gut. But in terms of like how to source them or sourcing. Yeah. The biggest problem right now is the market's flooded with peptides. Everybody's third party testing just like supplements were all third party tested all the time. And so how do you know you're getting what you think that you're getting?
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B
Exactly.
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A
And then how do you know if you are getting what you think you're getting? There's not, it's, it's pure.
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B
Well, it's like supplements just in general.
- [27:15]
A
Absolutely. Right, absolutely. So it's, it's one of those, it's one of those things where people are truly doing experiments on themselves on a, for, on a couple different levels. One, you know, a lot of times using a compound, say bp, BBC, because that's a, that's a really common one. Right. They're using a, a product that they're first trusting what's in it's in it. So that's, that's a risk. Then they're trusting that it's pure enough to, you know, throw in some bacteriostatic water and inject it into their, you know, sub Q or IM or however they're doing it. But then on top of that then they're kind of guessing whether it's going to work or not. Because although there are a number of these compounds that do have pretty good clinical data behind them, a lot of them really have, you know, three animal studies in a cell culture study which is not human clinical trial. No, these are, these are pre clinical studies and very few of them.
- [28:12]
B
And so why aren't they testing it on humans yet?
- [28:15]
A
Well, they are, there's, there are quite, there are quite a few like BPC has been tested on, on humans quite a bit. Thymus and beta 4, which now people use a, a truncated version of it or smaller amino.
- [28:27]
B
What's that for?
- [28:28]
A
It's, it's actually for like repair, body repair. TB500 is, is what's the common one for that? And they use that with BPC157.
- [28:36]
B
Yeah, I actually heard those being combined.
- [28:38]
A
Yeah, yeah. And they're, they're generally combined. That one does have some, some clinical data behind it and it's been, you know, pretty, pretty decently validated. The problem with a lot of them though is a lot of peptides is they're immuno, they have immunogenesity which means that they can react with the immune system and in doing so then you run the risk if you, you know, if you don't know, you have Some issue with some disease or whatever, whatever. Say you have cancer brewing, for example. Right. You don't know if that's going to actually interact with this thing that you don't even know you have. And so it's a little bit, it's, you know, it can be a little bit of a risk you're taking, you're doing research.
- [29:17]
B
So what you're saying is you'll, you'll just speed the process up or potentially magnify.
- [29:21]
A
Potentially, potentially. Like for example, it's a big issue, by the way.
- [29:24]
B
Let's, so let's be very clear there.
- [29:26]
A
Oh, it's huge. Like exercise, Exercise memetics have been around for a long time and these are, these are products or peptides that are involved in optimizing mitochondria function and these kinds of things decreasing any oxidant, so decreasing oxidation in the mitochondria, helping the, helping it transfer electrons to make ATP, like stuff like that. And one of them, GW15, 16, I believe it was called, it was out when was I using that. So it was out when I was big in my bodybuilding days, probably 2010 around there somewhere. And it actually, it's a, so it's a PPAR agonist, which, the, these, these PPARs are these things that get up, regulated, upregulated during exercise. So the, the guess is then, well, if that's an important molecule and we inject it in our cells, then we should get exercise effects by, by doing this. And what they found was though, after the clinical trials, it did make it that far, was that it increased the propensity for cancer in, at least in mice, which is enough for it not to go to the next level.
- [30:32]
B
So this is why, this is, this is why they haven't been regulated yet?
- [30:36]
A
Pretty much, yeah. Because there's, there's a number of reasons why they're not being regulated. But, but one of them is, there's, you know, I think one of them is because it's such wild west, it's kind of like how do we.
- [30:47]
B
But GLPs, this has not happened with GLP, no.
- [30:50]
A
GLP, GLPs were developed by, you know, big pharma and then basically copied by Chinese peptide pharmacies that then were making them and shipping them over. That's, that's, you know, they didn't start, they didn't start as a research compound and then end up somewhere. They, they started as an actual clinically tried medicine, but with a lot of these other compounds. That's not the case. Now there are There are ones in there that, that, you know, are used clinically. One's called Tessellin and it is a growth hormone releasing hormone peptide. And so what that simply means is that when you inject it, it interacts with your growth hormone release in, in the pituitary because it mimics the, the natural compound that releases growth hormone. And so people take that for longevity, aging and that kind of stuff, but that's not what it's actually prescribed for. What's been, what it was developed for was HIV AIDS and fat deposition, ectopic fat. So inside around your organs and everything it was shown to help really, really help eradicate this, you know, life threatening situation. And so people went, oh, decreases belly fat. So Tessa Morellin must be a growth hormone analog that I or growth hormone releasing product that I can use to decrease belly fat. But it wasn't actually developed for that. It was developed for people with HIV aids. The immunosuppression they're on and everything that happens to them, they end up with high levels of fat deposits around the, the midsection. I don't think it's so much an aesthetic thing. It was more so a, you know, a health thing. So, so there's one that you know, has passed that it, but it's, it's, it would be off script to, you know, or repurposed if it was used in, you know, the general population for anti aging.
- [32:41]
B
All right, so I, so now, I mean, this is starting to get a little bit more clear for me. So now we're completely separating the GLPs and the more of the.
- [32:50]
A
Yeah, the GLP, the GPU is like insulin, like inside. Yeah, yeah.
- [32:53]
B
So, so, so what you're breaking down to me right now is that it seems like you are for a lot of the GLPs, granted someone has truly exhausted a process in trying to lose weight, so which in my opinion most people don't do. Right. Like it's. Very few people fully exhaust a. But I, I would find that there are people that I've worked with and you've worked with and you know, I am allowed to speak about them publicly. I'm not going to bring up their names regardless. But certain people that have, you know, that are 5, 6, 700 pounds where, why not? Like it's, it's. They're, they're struggling to even move and get steps. So in my eyes would, I'm sorry, in your eyes, would there be any downside in someone who is. Just because you've worked, I've worked with, I'VE worked with a woman who's close to £900. I'm working with a guy right now that was almost, you know, £550. It's a tough process in the beginning because you got to retrain them how to walk. And there's so much inflammation in their body that their knees are blown up, their feet are blown up, their, their calves are swollen, they're black and blue all the time. Getting them to do basic movement becomes such a struggle. What I don't agree with is the person who's using this as a weight loss drug who is really not so far out of weight. You know, maybe they need to lose. Maybe it's just five or ten pounds, maybe need to calm down drinking, and they don't want to do that. And they're just getting on that. Then they're not exercising, they're not resistance training, and they're not, they're not consuming a micronutrient diet.
- [34:26]
A
That's where the biggest issue is right now is that the purpose, the purposes for these, what I consider remarkable peptides, the purposes for them have been kind of distorted now and they're getting more into the hands of people, well, like myself, trying it out. But, but, you know, I was doing it for. I was doing it strictly so I know my. What, my. Yeah. What, my. What my clients were feeling. But, yeah, so, so there are a lot of people using it as a slight crutch. But you gotta remember, like, so not everybody's built the same, right? And now we're learning that with these compounds just from like, you know, the, the experimental side of it, when you think of this person, this person cannot. We lose, you know, 10 pounds and we gain 20, then we lose 10, then we gain 5. And over the course of the year, it's a net of 50 plus pounds. Even though we lost weight numerous times, a lot of these folks that are, you know, in this heavily obese category that have metabolic issues, these drugs are a miracle because they take it and all of a sudden weight goes linear. And when they say weight loss isn't linear, I'm telling you, man, it's linear on this stuff. And it's linear for people that could not lose a pound with me for a year. And as I worked on the psyche, all constantly, right. But I did some experiments back in 2018 or so where we took pre clinical trials looking at the effects of obesity on depressive symptoms, movement, these types of things. So what they do is you get these genetically manipulated animals that have no leptin they, they lack the leptin receptor. Leptin is the big daddy satiety feeding hormone and it interacts with insulin. And if you knock that out, these animals will eat and eat and eat and they will not stop eating. And they do. And the more they eat and the more they, they don't, they, they basically don't move. You can't get them to move. If you try to put them on a treadmill or anything else by any means and they stop grooming and they actually start to show depressive symptoms. And there's some, there's different ways to test that in the, in pre clinical trials. But the point is that these peptides, naturally occurring peptides and hormones are so powerful that it'd be doing a disservice to humanity to say that everybody's got them running at perfect speed. Right. And in fact they do explain a lot for the differences in the propensity to eat for a lot of people. And so, you know, the research does tell us that it's not just like, you know, stop putting your hand to your mouth, that does work. But the most people know how to get to where they need to go. Yes, right. They just can't build that, that bridge to get there.
- [37:23]
B
Right. Now my question to you is basically is the only downside to taking them muscle loss and, and a reduction in bone density. And if you were to stop that from declining, is this in your opinion something that you have, you have no problems with?
- [37:43]
A
Yeah, absolutely. In fact, if you're getting your regular.
- [37:46]
B
Dex and that would be it. And that would be it. Right. Like, I mean, it's that simple. In, in a way, if on a GLP and you are to maintain muscle mass and maintain bone density, that means you're doing a lot of stuff, right. Because you're keeping up with resistance training. You're getting in a, a macro and micronutrient dense diet, maybe it's a reduction of it, but you're cutting back on cravings. That sounds pretty powerful to me.
- [38:09]
A
It, it, it is. And, and it, and like I said, it is in the right context. Right. And that's why, you know, this isn't a promotion for these products out there, but they are kind of a hot topic.
- [38:18]
B
Yeah.
- [38:19]
A
And people wonder, right. The other, the other peptides like you mentioned, like BPC 157 and all these ones, you know, again, I've played with them. Whether or not they worked or not, I don't know because they're not one of those things that you can measure.
- [38:35]
B
Well I've had certain people turn to me and they're like, you know, our friend Jordan used it. He said it completely helped him. I've got other buddies of mine who use it, and they're like, it hasn't done anything.
- [38:45]
A
Yeah, I guess it depends on the injury too, right? Like, so for me, like, you know, well, you know, I destroyed my shoulder last year, right. And so I thought, oh, yeah, let's do this whole BPC 157 TB500 thing. But my nerve damage was so bad in my arm, I'm still dealing with it. So.
- [39:00]
B
Did it improve anything?
- [39:02]
A
Well, I, I don't really know because I was so far gone in the hole.
- [39:06]
B
Right.
- [39:06]
A
Right. Now, if it was something like, you know, you have a torn labrum and every now and then your shoulder gets stiff, and usually it takes six weeks for it to heal, but now it's taking three weeks. You got something that's going to work for you. Right. So. And those compounds, to me, don't seem to be too, like, the pathways they work on don't seem to be too dangerous, but again, like, supply and are you getting what you're getting? And if you are also, I mean.
- [39:30]
B
You just brought up if, if you have signs of cancer, early stages of cancer, and now suddenly that's magnifying anything. Every. That's magnifying it. That's a, That's a huge fear and a huge problem. And.
- [39:41]
A
Or if you're on immunosuppressive therapy and you decide that you're going to take a drug that. Or a peptide that interacts with the immune system, then you may run the risk of, you know, decreasing the efficacy of your. Of your immunosuppression. And then all of a sudden, now you feel shittier. If you have, like, you know, Crohn's disease or if you have, you know, kidney disease, for that matter, with me, you don't want to be losing an organ. Right?
- [40:06]
B
Right.
- [40:06]
A
So. But there's people that have inflammation that are on immunosuppression that would possibly think that, oh, well, if I use these, these. These peptides too. This should, you know, help me with, with the situation I'm in. Lupus would be one. Right. And. And. And we don't know if that's the case. In fact, it might make things worse because of the interactions with your immunosuppression.
- [40:30]
B
So, so it sounds like. It sounds like there's a lot more research on the GLPs and that if you can monitor it, this is something that could be highly beneficial the most. Do we know any long term issues besides a loss in bone density and a loss in muscle mass? Are there any other, is there anything, you know, from, from a psychological standpoint, mentally? Do, do people start becoming a bit offset from taking this sort of thing? I don't know.
- [40:59]
A
No, not so much. Much. The, I mean, you have the, the common side effects, like, you know, starting with the most basic, like, you know, pain at the injection site right through to constipation, diarrhea, nausea. Some people have to stop the, like the dosing protocols elevate, you know, with each month. Some people have to stop these, these dosing protocols because they're, they're vomiting every time they eat.
- [41:24]
B
Wow.
- [41:25]
A
This is when things are getting a little too high in the dosing, I believe.
- [41:29]
B
And there's no standard standardization for dosing, it really seems.
- [41:32]
A
No, there is. Oh, there is, there is. Yeah. They have it fully standardized and you know, just incrementally depending on which drug you're on, it increases every month and up until it gets to, you know, high levels, you know, so say like two and a half milligrams up to three and a half to five to that kind of thing. But the people that are playing with them mostly are kind of like microdosing them, you know, throughout the week, taking them. So they can limit the side effects of like nauseousness and whatnot, but still get the effects on the food noise and everything else.
- [42:00]
B
Now microdosing, starting to discuss specific benefits when it comes down to lowering cholesterol, etc, like is that, is that true? Are these things that people are utilizing now? Because would you rather get on that or would you rather get on some type of Lipitor, right, Like to like, what is. What is going to give you not only more bang for your buck, but is one masking the problem opposed to fixing the problem? Is one going to leave you with side effects? What's your opinion on that?
- [42:27]
A
Yeah, so if we're looking at comparing statins to comparing say these GLPs, right, for say lowering cholesterol or normalizing dyslipidemia, the real question is what's driving the cholesterol issues? And so if it's someone who is overweight by nature and they have always eaten a lot of fast food and everything else, and they've got, you know, problems with cholesterol. Glp, the GLP is going to lower that insulin and lower that glucose and lower the cholesterol because you're. Well, first there's interactions, biochemically but also you just aren't eating that stuff anymore.
- [43:03]
B
Right. Which sounds like even with the statins, people are continuing to eat a poor diet. They're just in my eyes masking the problem. So is that, is this going to start taking the place of that?
- [43:15]
A
Who knows? And we're at the forefront. Right.
- [43:17]
B
And is the microdosing, is this just. That would sound like a much safer approach. Are you just not craving as much but still, you know, able to make decisions on your own? Or should. Does that make sense? Is it just like a lighter? It's just kind of cutting down on some of the cravings a little bit, making things a little bit easier for you? Is that all it's really doing?
- [43:42]
A
Yeah, and that does work. The problem is how like they'd have to run a dose finding study of, of high magnitude, like Big. Because the reason why they, the reason why, you know, TRT is the way it is. Like, you know, generally it's prescribed once a week. Right, right. These GLPs are because most people don't want to inject themselves multiple times a week. So they make it easier. But to have a study that, you know, you could do all these different permutations and combinations of dosing would be, you know, really difficult. But I think the physicians, as they get on board with this and the ones that are actually really, really privy to this, even more privy than I am to this, this area, are starting to now understand that there are different ways to apply these valuable drugs in these populations.
- [44:25]
B
It's gonna be fascinating. I mean, are we still under researched in the sense of it just hasn't been around long enough for us to see long term issues. So people might have been, you know, they might be researching now GLPs for the last 10 to 20 years. Do we know what it does to someone 30 years from now if they've been on it? Do we, do we have that information or is that something only time will tell?
- [44:47]
A
That's only, only time will tell.
- [44:48]
B
Yeah.
- [44:49]
A
Yeah.
- [44:49]
B
And I mean, does that scare you a bit? I mean, shouldn't that scare most people a bit?
- [44:53]
A
Yeah, but it's, you know, it's, it's if, if these work out to be the, you know, miracle for our North American obese population, as they say it is, then we will notice it in healthcare costs.
- [45:08]
B
Yes.
- [45:09]
A
Right. And we'll notice it in the, the survival of, you know, people that are, you know, significantly overweight. Because we do know that, you know, survivor rates go way down as we become morbidly obese. You know, and our BMI is up in the, like, high 30s. Yeah.
- [45:27]
B
A friend of a friend, actually one of my buddies, went to a funeral parlor that his friend owned. Sounds very strange. And this, the owner of the funeral parlor looked at my friend Mike and said, mike, how many people do you think I. I bury that are over 60 years old and weigh over 250 pounds? And he's like, probably a lot. He goes, they don't make it that long. Right. So my first response to all this, and I am not a doctor, nor should I be the one anyone should be listening to, that's why I brought you on, is if you get to a specific age and you're dealing with someone who's 65, 70 years old and they're 200 pounds overweight, I think the risk is worth it because they may not make the next couple of years. And, you know, so at that point, that I can understand, and if I was in that position and I could not, yes, I would definitely explore this. Someone 20 years old, 21 years old, who needs to change some habits. I'm not completely against it based off of what you said. I mean, you really opened my eyes to certain things. Maybe, you know, limiting that, those triggers in their head, going off to wanting the McDonald's or wanting the pizza or making those poor food choices, but then understanding that there needs to be some lifestyle changes.
- [46:47]
A
Well, there has to be, anyway.
- [46:49]
B
Yeah.
- [46:49]
A
Like, you know, the, the honeymoon phase of the weight loss on these drugs is, you know, pretty big. But when you're 100 pounds lighter, you're still 100, you're still the same person in your head. Like, you don't become the, you know, athletic version of yourself in your head. Your head is always going to be thinking the same things. And that's why I mentioned, you know, one of the best things you can do if you're using these compounds is to understand how well they're working for you and where they're working for you so that you can erase whatever that is out of your life down the road through therapy or through just, you know, good coaching or anything else. Because that's where the magic's really going to happen is not relying on these, these medic to sustain your. Your life. I mean, that's why, like, in a lot of cases, like, you know, you mentioned Lipitor earlier, like statins and everything, you know, they're being prescribed now, and people aren't changing habits.
- [47:50]
B
It's a problem.
- [47:51]
A
And then all of a sudden, now they got dyslipidemia and they're on Lipitor, so they go, let's try, you know, let's try Rosuvastatin or some different statin. And okay, this one's working. But the problem is that you haven't addressed the, the, the, the stuff that got you to the point of having to take the drug 100.
- [48:10]
B
Chris, let's take some questions. Oh, I know this guy.
- [48:13]
A
Yeah.
- [48:13]
B
We have one question today for this one. And this is Jonathan in Tampa. Here we go, one of my challengers. Hey, it's Jonathan Mitchell from Tampa, Florida. Don't. My coach about four years now, Dwayne Jackson. I've seen him around, you know, Don's groups and stuff. Great guy. I set a quick question on you guys.
- [48:31]
A
Guys got the fitness part down with.
- [48:33]
B
Don really leaning into the longevity stuff. So I really had a question about glyconol, NAC and peptides and stuff for longevity. So if you guys could talk a little bit more with those specifically and even other longevity protocols and stuff. Ah, man, that'd be so cool. Thank you so much, guys. He's such a nice guy. So what's your, what's your, what's your opinion on that?
- [48:52]
A
Yeah, so glycine and any, any c, which I think he mentioned is, is a great one. And it's actually, you know, it's just N acetylcysteine, which, which this is a bas.
- [49:03]
B
Mental.
- [49:03]
A
Absolutely. And, and, and but what we do know is I actually posted, posted this a few months ago, is that it does actually help with this whole like, you know, longevity, biological age stuff. And so NAC is N acetylcysteine is a precursor to glutathione, which is a very potent antioxidant. So as we age and we're looking for longevity, we want lots of oxidative stress to be taken care of. And, and NAC is great for that. But there's a really neat synergy between glycine and NAC to promote mitochondrial health and decreases in oxidative stress, which then help our mitochondria do their job making ATP. So excellent. That's an excellent product. You can get it combined, you can get it separately, it doesn't matter.
- [49:54]
B
And when you say combined, you. You mean as a peptide to where it becomes injected or. And you could still take it as a supplement. Like I know Thorne sells some of these. These.
- [50:04]
A
Yeah, absolutely, yeah. So I would just take it as a supplement. NAC is very, very well tolerated and absorbed. It increases glutathione levels better than glutathione itself. Because glutathione gets broken down. Yeah. There's no reason to be injecting N acetylcysteine. I had this conversation actually a few times with, in some podcasts I've done so. And on the other hand, there's no real reason in my eyes to inject glutathione because that's the only way you can make it bioavailable. You're just better off taking nac. It works really, really well. And when you combine that with glycine at the same dose, so usually, usually it's about, you know, 1.6 grams of each per day. You can split those up. You know, with NAC, I generally tell people, take 500 milligrams three times a day or so. You can do the same with glycine. But the two together, like two combined, work really, really well for longevity and health and everything else that, you know, people are looking for as age.
- [50:59]
B
I love it. Awesome. All right, so I want to thank you for coming on today. You and I can just go at it for hours, which is phenomenal. Just a wealth of knowledge. It's really terrific. And I think the thing I want to tell people is you have to know where your source is, who your sources are, or where your sources are from. And I think a big problem right now is people tend to sound smart on social media, but they don't have the credentials. And I'm. I'm almost a bit against that. I. I want to. I need to. I'm going to listen to someone who's got a background in this, someone like yourself who, you know, who has studied this and is, you know, seen trials and. And, you know, has this background. And I think sometimes we just look it in for, oh, so and so said it's great. Or. Or my buddy who has a lot of money, started taking peptides, and he says it's working great for them. Like, right, that's fine to ask those questions, but I think coming at the end of the day, I think the buck should stop with someone like you, you know, and from there, then you got to make a decision. But I think in concluding all this today, we don't truly know the risk of everything out there yet.
- [52:08]
A
We don't know. And, you know, I do, like I said, I do podcasts for the IFBB on this stuff. And I always say that is like, you know, if you're experimenting on yourself, just know that, like, we really don't. We. There's no real safety data on these compounds. There's some compounds, like I, like I said, you know, there's one called Sloop 3 332, like SLU PP332. And it's got three, I believe, three studies that were done in animals and, and that's become the big popular one for body fat loss. So, yeah, not really the, not really the smartest approach.
- [52:44]
B
Approach your cost. Guys. Thanks for joining today. Dr. Jackson, thanks again.
- [52:55]
A
The views, information or opinions expressed in the series are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of Chip and Joanna Gaines by Nail Audio nor Magnolia.