Stronger with Don Saladino
Episode: Why Pain Happens (and How to Train Smarter)
Guest: Dr. Jordan Shallow | September 16, 2025
Episode Overview
In this in-depth episode of Stronger, renowned fitness coach Don Saladino welcomes Dr. Jordan Shallow — sports performance expert, chiropractic specialist, and founder of the educational platform Prescript — to unravel the complex topic of pain. Their discussion moves far beyond the stereotypical “no pain, no gain” gym wisdom, exploring pain’s nature, perception, and the critical differences between pain and injury. Together, they shed light on smarter ways to train, how to distinguish productive discomfort from real warning signs, and why skill acquisition and proper movement must take precedence over mere brute strength.
Listeners are treated to a blend of practical advice, scientific insight, and personal stories, all delivered in a relatable, engaging manner.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. What Is Pain? Framing the Conversation
[01:17–03:00]
- Dr. Shallow begins by challenging basic assumptions:
“If I were to say what is pain, how would you answer that question?” - Don views pain as an “indicator” that something isn’t right — a common but incomplete view.
- Dr. Jordan expands:
“People will call it a sensation. Pain is an emotion... Your brain is guessing about what reality is.” [01:48]
- He illustrates the power of perception with a UK case: a man experienced excruciating pain from a nail through his boot that never touched his foot — the pain was real, even in the absence of injury.
2. Dr. Shallow’s Story and Unique Approach
[03:00–07:52]
- Don credits Dr. Shallow as a huge personal influence, emphasizing his expertise and humanity.
- Jordan’s journey:
- From working corporate wellness at Apple and Stanford to immersing himself in powerlifting culture.
- Highlights the integration of clinical, athletic, and strength lenses in understanding human movement and pain.
- Started Prescript, an advanced educational platform to improve the standard of coaching globally.
- Don contextualizes:
“You’re on the top two list. … If I’m going to pick the top two people for pain management and strength and conditioning, you’re on that list.” [04:21]
3. Physical Pain: Indicator or Injury? (Pain 101)
[09:54–13:19]
- Don and Jordan break down the confusion between pain, injury, and nociception.
- Dr. Shallow:
“Pain is a perception. … there is a difference between pain and injury, and there’s clearly a difference between pain and nociception. Nociception is just the raw sensory data of the experience of pain.” [13:20]
- Not all pain means damage; the brain constructs pain based on perception, context, and prior experience.
4. Perception, Reality, and Learning Movement
[16:09–28:48]
- Dr. Shallow champions the idea that “lifting is learning and training is teaching.”
“The sooner we can all get on board with lifting as learning and training as teaching, we’re going to make way better decisions around exercise.” [16:09]
- Skill acquisition is foundational—good exercise selection is less about targeting individual muscles and more about matching movements to what the body and brain can handle.
- Analogy: Building a website using drag-and-drop vs. true coding. Movement is the user interface; most people only scratch the surface.
- Don on the pitfalls of always chasing progressive overload:
“Progressive overload, it’s not always going to happen, right? …how you treat that, I think, is a really important thing.” [19:45]
- Dr. Shallow outlines the three prongs of performance:
- Objectification (numbers, weights, reps)
- How it feels (subjective experience)
- How it looks (movement quality and coordination) [20:22–21:00]
- Notable insight: The best athletes are often the fastest to learn new skills, not necessarily the strongest in the gym.
- Example: Bo Jackson, whose genius lies in rapid skill acquisition.
5. Athletic Sensitivity & the Role of Subjectivity
[22:46–28:00]
- Stories of high-performing athletes (tennis and golf) detecting minute changes in their equipment show the value of subjectivity and body awareness.
- Dr. Shallow:
“It’s the feel that allows for… the input that drives the output.” [26:36]
6. Skill Loss, Motor Learning, and “Muscle Memory”
[28:00–31:34]
- Don’s personal example: After a three-month break from squatting, his body feels unfamiliar with the movement despite decades of training.
“…I felt like there was a disconnect on what I was feeling and what I was perceiving.” [28:48]
- Dr. Shallow explains:
- The brain constantly updates motor patterns, even through visualization or observation.
- “Muscle memory” is less about muscles, more about continual updating of neural pathways.
“When it comes to exercise, the interesting thing is the muscle memory works the same way. …even though you weren’t on the bike, you see bikes everywhere.” [31:12]
7. Exercise Selection, Pain Avoidance, and Performance Enhancement
[34:57–36:36]
- Both agree: The right movement selection, tailored to the individual’s skill and hardware/software (body/brain) match, is foundational.
- Don:
“…if we can get into a successful position, we’re like removing the parking brake from the moving car.” [34:57]
- Jordan:
“Elbow pain, shoulder pain, these are all signals that there’s a qualitative issue, not a quantitative issue. … Oh, my elbow hurts because I bench too much. No, you don’t bench well.” [36:15]
8. Practical Listener Q&A: Downhill Running Knee Pain
[36:47–40:52]
- Question from Aaron in LA about knee pain while running downhill.
- Dr. Shallow’s advice:
- Running downhill requires adjusting your center of mass: keep shoulders relaxed and slightly forward to prevent momentum from taking you over your toes.
-
“You need to stay relaxed through the shoulders, because you need your center of mass to be lower… your upper body isn’t absorbing the force with you, now your knees have to do more.” [37:47; 39:51]
- Train eccentric strength and external rotation in the gym (front foot elevated split squats, etc.).
- Flexibility and mobility work before hikes are also beneficial.
Memorable Quotes & Wisdom
- “Pain is an emotion… your brain is guessing about what reality is.”
— Dr. Jordan Shallow [01:48] - “There is a difference between pain and injury, and there’s clearly a difference between pain and nociception.”
— Dr. Jordan Shallow [13:20] - “The sooner we can all get on board with lifting as learning and training as teaching, we’re going to make way better decisions around exercise.”
— Dr. Jordan Shallow [16:09] - “If we can get into a successful position, we’re like removing the parking brake from the moving car.”
— Don Saladino [34:57] - “It’s not about doing more, it’s about doing it better.”
— Dr. Jordan Shallow [36:15] - “People want quick answers, but do you want right answers?”
— Dr. Jordan Shallow [41:28]
Tone and Style
- The conversation is candid, energetic, and relatable, with personal anecdotes and humor.
- Deep dives are presented accessibly, with analogies (websites, learning languages, parking brakes) that demystify complex topics for all listeners.
- Both host and guest are clear about their mission: empower listeners to think critically about pain, movement, and self-improvement—making strength more holistic than ever.
Standout Segments & Timestamps
- [01:17] — What is pain, really? The nail-through-the-boot story.
- [04:44] — Dr. Shallow’s unique professional and sporting journey.
- [13:19] — Key distinction: Pain perception vs. tissue injury.
- [16:09] — Redefining training as teaching and skill acquisition.
- [19:45] — The three prongs of performance: numbers, feel, and look.
- [26:36] — World-class athletes and the power of sensitivity.
- [28:48] — Losing and regaining skill after layoff; “muscle memory” re-explained.
- [36:15] — Pain as a signal of quality, not quantity.
- [37:47] — Listener Q&A: practical tips for knee pain and running downhill.
Final Thoughts
Don wraps the episode by affirming the beauty of continual learning and the value of asking better questions rather than chasing fast fixes:
“I think part of the excitement of this industry is that we’re always learning and we’re always getting better… I want them to learn how to cook it right.” [42:27]
Dr. Shallow closes with a challenge to elevate the industry:
“We’ve been operating off bad philosophy for a long time that has given us right answers to the wrong questions. …change your philosophy so you ask better questions.” [42:06]
Whether you’re just starting your fitness journey, seeking answers about pain, or aiming to step up your performance, this episode will arm you with knowledge—and a fresh mindset—for training smarter.