Wrestling is Full of Conspiracies

Summary

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Stuff They Don’t Want You to Know – "Wrestling is Full of Conspiracies"

Podcast: Stuff They Don't Want You to Know
Episode Date: July 15, 2026
Hosts: Ben, Matt, Noel (Super Producer: Dylan “the Tennessee pal” Fagan)
Episode Theme: An exploration of the hidden conspiracies, scandals, and strange realities within the world of professional wrestling.

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Episode Overview

In this episode, the hosts dive into the fascinating and often shadowy world of professional wrestling. While wrestling is a beloved blend of athleticism, storytelling, and spectacle, it’s also rife with conspiracies—both wholesome and sinister. The trio unpacks the evolution of pro wrestling, the concept of “kayfabe,” and the industry’s long-standing history with problematic stereotypes, performance-enhancing drugs, allegations of abuse, and even murder.

Trigger warning: The discussion covers sensitive and potentially disturbing topics such as steroid use, sexual abuse, and homicide.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Wrestling's Dual Identity: Sport vs. Spectacle

[06:48 – 11:48]

• Origins:

  • Olympic-style wrestling is one of humanity’s oldest sports, depicted in prehistoric cave paintings and ancient texts.
  • Modern “pro wrestling” diverged into what hosts call “athletic theater,” where performances are scripted for maximum entertainment and crowd appeal.

• Why It Became ‘Fixed’:

  • American audiences found competitive wrestling too slow-paced, craving more spectacle.
  • Early promoters began scripting matches for greater drama and to showcase charismatic personalities, leading to the modern era of wrestling with elaborate storylines.

2. The Art & Theater of Pro Wrestling

[11:48 – 14:14]

• On-Stage Personas:

  • Wrestlers develop exaggerated characters (“faces” as heroes, “heels” as villains).
  • Gimmicks, lore, and dramatic backstories abound—popularity wasn’t always about technical skill but charisma and stage presence.

  “If your charisma was enough in the early nascent emergent days of professional wrestling, you didn’t actually have to be that skilled technically.” – Ben [12:24]

• Stereotypes and Problematic Gimmicks:

  • The hosts call out a long tradition of racially insensitive characters (e.g., Kamala the “Ugandan Giant,” Yokozuna, “Mexicools”).
  • Discussion reflects on how wrestling mirrored and amplified broader cultural prejudices.

  “There was Kamala… Akeem the African Dream, a white wrestler repackaged with ‘urban’ mannerisms… the Mexicools, a Mexican trio debuting on riding lawnmowers…” – Noel [15:01]

3. Wrestling's Mass Appeal & Cultural Phenomenon

[14:14 – 20:32]

• Global Reach & Market Size:

  • WWE and similar organizations are now multi-billion dollar empires, with industry value expected to reach almost $13 billion by 2033.
  • Wrestling fandom transcends geography, class, and politics.

  “There’s this perception… that wrestling fandom is… folks that maybe live in southern parts of the country or reside politically on the right. That is just so not true. It is so universally beloved.” – Noel [18:21]

• Breakout Stars:

  • Wrestlers like The Rock and John Cena have become globally recognized celebrities, underscoring wrestling’s universal appeal.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the iconic catchphrase and Buffer family legal action:

  “We actually cannot say or do not want to say that entire catchphrase… because the owners of that trademark phrase, the Buffer family, is known for suing the heck out of people...” – Ben [01:12]

• Reflecting on wrestling as ‘athletic theater’:

  “It is drama writ large, you know… a machismo-enriched version of, say, daytime soaps.” – Noel [11:48]

• On the wrestling world’s binary morality:

  “They found that American audiences really love this charismatic stuff. They love this binary good guy, bad guy mentality.” – Ben [12:24]

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Important Concepts & Segments

4. Kayfabe: The Heart of Wrestling’s Biggest Conspiracy

[24:28 – 32:54]

• Definition & Importance:

  • Wrestlers must maintain their character’s persona at all times, blurring lines between reality and fiction.
  • Breaking kayfabe (“the illusion”) is the ultimate taboo.

  “If there is one mortal sin in all of this… it is breaking kayfabe.” – Ben [26:54]

• Analogies:

  • Compared to method acting, magician’s code, or Santa Claus mythos—“a form of harmless fun,” but also the linchpin of the industry’s grand deception.

  “This is the biggest conspiracy, technically, of pro wrestling, because it’s central to the entire operation…” – Ben [27:24]

• Athleticism vs. Spectacle:

  • Scripted outcomes don’t diminish the real physical prowess or risk involved for wrestlers.

  “Just because kayfabe is in play doesn’t make the wrestlers themselves any less athletic at all.” – Ben [28:50]

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5. Dark Realities: Scandal, Steroids & Corruption

[32:54 – 41:11]

a. Steroid Abuse Crisis

[32:54 – 39:39]

• Widespread Use:

  • Steroid use in wrestling was rampant and, in practice, legal until the early 1990s.
  • Vince McMahon claimed to clean up the industry, but high-profile indictments followed, exposing ongoing abuse.

  “From the moment of that 1991 backlash and McMahon’s statement… they were internally pressuring people to use steroids and helping them acquire those steroids.” – Ben [36:59]

• Cultural Pressures:

  • Wrestlers pressured to maintain hulking physiques to remain competitive—“if you’re not doing steroids, you’re not in the game.”
  • Steroid use linked to later health crises, premature deaths, and erratic behavior (e.g., “Roid rage”).

b. Sexual Harassment, Assault, and Toxic Work Culture

[44:17 – 51:11]

• High-Profile Allegations:

  • 2024: Lawsuit vs. Vince McMahon for sexual assault and trafficking by former WWE staffer Janelle Grant.
  • History of hush money payments, internal investigations with hidden results, and a trail of similar allegations over decades.

  “A scandal rocked the industry. A former WWE employee named Janelle Grant alleged that… Vince McMahon had sexually trafficked her, had sexually assaulted her himself at the company's headquarters…” – Ben [44:17]

• Company Response & Fallout:

  • McMahon repeatedly escapes criminal conviction but faces consequences to reputation and business roles.
  • Daughter Stephanie McMahon rises in corporate ranks; McMahon remains influential as majority shareholder.

• Industry Merge:

  • WWE merges with UFC to form TKO Group Holdings, illustrating the industry’s ever-growing conglomerate power.

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6. Violence & Death: Roid Rage, Homicides, and Early Deaths

[53:25 – End]

• Wrestlers Linked to Murder:

  • Several wrestlers—including Billy Jack Haynes, Jimmy Snuka—have been implicated or charged in murder cases.
  • Discussion of “roid rage,” behavioral side effects of steroids, and troubling pattern of premature deaths.

• Infamous Cases Highlighted:

  • Chris Benoit: A tragic murder-suicide involving his family (covered in Vice’s “Dark Side of the Ring”).

    “Chris Benoit… I think it was one of those like there’s a family, kill your family things and then yourself.” – Matt [58:53]

  • Other Examples:

    • Juana Barraza, self-professed wrestler and serial killer in Mexico.
    • Numerous cases of wrestlers dying young from heart failure, suicide, or under suspicious circumstances.

• Speculation on Industry Responsibility:

  • The toxic work culture, substance abuse, and mental health neglect are all critiqued as systemic issues.

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Final Thoughts & Takeaways

• Wrestling’s Two Faces: While the overwhelming majority of wrestling is “just awesome”—a world of athleticism, drama, and community—there is a darker underside that demands confronting.

• Culture of Silence & Collusion: The legacy of kayfabe, corporate power, and a culture obsessed with spectacle too often enabled abuse, criminality, and cover-ups.

• Audience Agency: The hosts consistently urge empathy and awareness—understanding the difference between wholesome escapist fun and when the illusion serves to hide real harm.

  “A culture built on kayfabe is inherently chock full of, for better or worse, the stuff they don’t want you to know.” – Ben [59:21]

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Additional Recommendations & References

• [60:25] Matt recommends the Vice documentary series "Dark Side of the Ring" for deep-dives on wrestling’s biggest scandals.
• The boundaries between entertainment, deception, and conspiracy remain ever-blurry in pro wrestling—a perfect fit for the show’s brand.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [06:48] — Wrestling’s origins, history, and split into pro wrestling
• [11:48] — Rise of “athletic theater,” personas, and stereotypes
• [18:01] — Global market and universal fan appeal
• [24:28] — What is kayfabe and why it matters
• [32:54] — Steroid scandals and health crises
• [39:39] — Sexual abuse allegations and industry cover-ups
• [53:25] — Murder cases and roid rage
• [58:53] — Chris Benoit’s case and the darkest wrestling tragedies
• [59:21] — Episode summary and final reflections

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If you are new to pro wrestling, this episode offers a balanced look at everything from the artifice and joy of the spectacle to the deeply troubling realities beneath the surface. For longtime fans, it’s a reminder to keep clear-eyed—and for all, a glimpse into the ‘stuff they don’t want you to know.’

Transcript

[Ben]

From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A production of iHeartradio.

[Matt]

It's time. Welcome back to the show.

[Noel]

My name is is Matt. Oh, my goodness. My name is Noel.

[Ben]

And in this corner, weighing in at 669 shadows, they call him Ben. We are joined as always, with our super producer, Dylan, the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know. Let's get ready to rum. Kidding. Kidding.

[Noel]

We.

[Ben]

We actually can't say it. We cannot say that phrase on air.

[Noel]

I don't want to. I don't want to hold you up too much, Ben here, but how much doth a shadow weigh?

[Ben]

Right, well, tune in for our later episodes.

[Noel]

Depends on the content of the character of the shadow.

[Ben]

Yes, there it is. We actually, the reason I was doing that joke at the top is we actually cannot say or do not want to say that entire catchphrase, which should be familiar to all wrestling fans on the air because the owners of that trademark phrase, the Buffer family is known for suing the heck out of people if they use it. They even took on the mouse for having a iteration of we can say the phrase let's get ready to rumble, but we can't say it in that intonation and with that context.

[Noel]

You take aim at the mouse, you best not miss, and you best have a airtight case. So it sounds like they know what they're doing now.

[Matt]

Now, hold on. We're talking about Michael Buffer, who I remember from the boxing, and then Bruce Buffer that we know from ufc.

[Noel]

At least a couple of buff buffers, if you ask me.

[Ben]

And now TKO holdings, which we'll get to. It's a true story. The Buffer dynasty has made an estimated 400 million plus US dollars off trademarking and licensing the phrase let's get ready to rumble and of course, off of their notorious litigation cases. But if you're a fan of wrestling, even if we didn't say the phrase fully in that intonation, you know what that signals, what it leads to. It's one of the most fascinating, strangest performance sports in all of modern history. That's right, fellow conspiracy realist. Tonight, sort of live and kind of direct to you, we are doing an episode all about professional wrestling and the conspiracies of play inside and outside of the ring. Quick note, quick disclaimer. There will be discussions of some pretty dark, dark, violent things here. So this episode may not be appropriate for all listeners.

[Noel]

Lots of punches and kicks, potentially some slams.

[Matt]

Getting ropes.

[Noel]

Oh, God, don't even get me started on folding chairs.

[Ben]

Cages. Yeah, cages. Cage matches.

[Noel]

Do they still use spiked bats from time to time? Or barbed wire? Do they do that where they slice themselves? That's at least. We'll get into it.

[Ben]

You got to check out the amateur wrestling. Our own metropolis of Atlanta and a lot of surrounding counties in Georgia actually have a thriving scene that's a little bit looser with the rules than WWF and wwe.

[Noel]

A little bit looser with the problematic behavior as well. Because I went to one at like a VFW a handful of years ago and the heel wrestlers were all like, Mexican or, you know, Middle Eastern coded.

[Mangesha]

It was.

[Noel]

It was not good. And I just remember there was this one kid who clearly had a glandular disorder who was just going, kill them.

[Ben]

Kill.

[Noel]

It was a lot.

[Ben]

It was a lot.

[Matt]

If we're talking problematic behavior, we're going to get into plenty of that with some McMahon things and some other things.

[Ben]

Yeah. So let's dive in. We'll have a word from our sponsors and then we'll meet you in the ring. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Hey, folks, have you ever picked up something at the grocery store that looked healthy? You know, but then you flip it over and you see the list of ingredients and you're saying, I can't pronounce half of these things.

[Noel]

That's true. And that's exactly why you should check out Wise Code, the Ultra Processed Food Detector. All you got to do is scan a product and instantly you can see whether it's Ultra processed.

[Matt]

You can even take a step further by viewing its nutrition quality and health quality, giving you a better understanding of what's really in the food you're picking up.

[Ben]

So don't delay. Download wise Code, that's W, I, S, E code. All one word on the app store today and make grocery shopping a little easier.

[Noel]

Hey, everybody. It's the guys from Stuff they don't want you to know. And before we continue with the podcast, we'd really love it if you'd do us a solid and fill out these 37 forms about your listening history.

[Matt]

We'll wait. Just kidding. That would be ridiculous. Yet we do it every time we need healthcare.

[Ben]

Yeah, it's bonkers. However, there's good news. The new Amazon Health AI is different. It can connect your symptoms with your medical history to offer personalized care 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

[Noel]

Amazon Health AI is here.

[Matt]

Healthcare just got less painful.

[Raiders of the Lost Podcast Host]

On Raiders of the Lost podcast, we explore cinema like no one else, including huge interviews with stars like Ryan Gosling on project Hail Mary.

[Ben]

It was like the Jaws shark didn't always work, came with its own problems. That's what made it great.

[Raiders of the Lost Podcast Host]

The cast of Obsession on set, there

[Matt]

was so much magic happening with each scene. We were putting together deep dives into

[Raiders of the Lost Podcast Host]

classics like 2001 A Space Odyssey or, or Fight Club, plus weekly episodes on all industry news. Listen to Raiders of the Lost podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And for more, follow aidersofthelostpodcast and ICTOC Podcast Network on TikTok.

[Revisionist History Host]

Thirty years ago, an island off Manhattan almost brought down New York City.

[Ben]

Who will you trust? Your friends and neighbors, or you trust the people five miles overseas?

[Revisionist History Host]

This is a story about neighbors turning on each other and what happens when a forgotten place decides it's had enough.

[Matt]

But we're not stopping, are we?

[Revisionist History Host]

Listen to Revisionist the Staten island problem on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben]

Here are the facts. You've gotta separate two related concepts that are quite distinct. Okay, folks, that's our little stage magic trick for that one. There are two loose categories, broad categories of what we call wrestling today. The first one, the actual Olympic level wrestling, is one of the oldest combat sports in all of human civilization. It predates the written word. It's been independently invented time and time again across cultures, primarily because you don't need special equipment to do it. And also because even as recreation, this type of wrestling can train people for actual combat in the future. There are depictions of it in cave paintings from France that date back 15 to 17,000 years. It's in the Iliad, it's in the Old Testament. Remember how Jacob wrestles with either an angel or God? It's in the Vedas. It's. It's in, like ancient Babylon and Egypt. It's everywhere.

[Matt]

I do wonder about the techniques that were available to Jacob as he wrestled with an angel or, you know, being of other origin like that, can't really

[Noel]

do any below the belt. Hits with an angel because they got nothing down there.

[Ben]

They're like, Kendall, if it's a biblically accurate angel as well, then where do you. Which wing do you grab onto? How do you grapple?

[Matt]

How do you grapple? Where are you talking about? Under hooks, where it's A very interesting thing maybe we should point out here when we're talking about wrestling as a sport versus a fighting technique. Ben, is we're talking about in the sport, you're not hitting anybody in wrestling, it's not about attacking, it's about kind of imposing your body's will on the other body by. By moving them outside of some ring, by pinning them to the ground. You know, they're. Yeah, you're not hitting anybody or purposely hurting somebody. It's a competition in the sporting world.

[Ben]

Exactly. And it's huge. Still, modern versions of this ancient wrestling are incredibly popular all around the world today. In fact, a fun little random piece of info here. I believe the literal national sport of Turkey is still oil wrestling. Yeah, it's exactly what it sounds like. These guys are essentially in, I don't want to call them diapers, but they're in their tidies and that's it. And they get lubed up and then they grapple with each other. Nothing homoerotic about that, not integrating. But we are talking, though. We're talking not just about that. Maybe we'll do a ridiculous history episode about that in the future. Fellow conspiracy realists and wrestling fans, we are talking about your favorite form of wrestling and it is inspired by the original, but over time it went in a wildly different, and I think we would all argue, wildly entertaining direction.

[Matt]

That's the key word, isn't it, Ben?

[Ben]

Yeah, it's technically. Okay, so we call it just wrestling, but you might call it pro wrestling or professional wrestling. And if you look at the technical definition, it is described as athletic theater.

[Matt]

Yep.

[Noel]

Sort of like Kraft singles or cheese product.

[Ben]

Cheese food products.

[Matt]

Yes, well, that's why there's that entertainment word at the end of the world Wrestling, right?

[Ben]

Yes, yes, exactly. It's still pro wrestling. First off, we're coming from a place of great affection and respect here, folks. We're not haters on this. It still revolves around that idea of. Of mock combat which the sport of wrestling originally has always been. But historians make a really interesting point. Wrestling in its original form was considered too slow paced to really pull crowds in the United States. Keep in mind, this is also the country that would later go on to invent crack cocaine and super sized french fries. So naturally, audiences in the 1800s, 1700s, they looked at this kind of stuff even when Abe Lincoln was wrestling and they were like, we want more. And that's why the wrestlers, in a bid to get their industry more well known and more popular, they privately agreed to start fixing their matches and they did this not purely for a financial basis, to be honest. These are artisans studying a craft and they realized that, hey, if we have a kind of narrative through line, if we can agree on some kind of outline or course of events, then we can pull off super spectacular entertaining moves in choreography. The kind of stuff you would never see in a non fixed regular mountain.

[Noel]

I mean, it's not for nothing that so many of these folks have gone on to have very successful film careers, right? I mean, it's, it's acting of the highest order and it is drama writ large, you know, I mean, it is essentially kind of a machismo enriched version of say, daytime soaps, you know, I like that.

[Matt]

Yeah, well, but also think about action movies and the things that are required of an actor in a big budget action film. It's just being able to use your body to do cool stuff and look good while you're doing it. That's it.

[Ben]

And the promoters are a huge aspect of this early development of professional wrestling. They're the ones who really start becoming the brain trust and they script these matches which allow for a kind of a bit of improvisation, but they always have an end goal in their narrative. The victor is decided it's going to be the most charismatic wrestler, usually the people's hero. Noel, you earlier used the term heel. That's wrestling lingo for the bad guy. The opposite of that is the face, which is the hero, the one you're supposed to cheer for. They found that American audiences really love this charismatic stuff. They love this binary good guy, bad guy mentality. If your charisma was enough in the early nascent emergent days of professional wrestling, you didn't actually have to be that skilled technically. You would get more attention, more money, more popularity by adopting a stage Persona. You'd have various gimmicks like the legendary Undertaker. You'd have weird lore and strange backstories. And then you'd also start getting these other pretend characters that didn't actually wrestle, but they were like your fake manager. Remember those guys like the, the grand wizard and Sergeant Slaughter and so on? Grand wizard, actually Jewish guy. Whoa.

[Noel]

Okay. And I was going to say, but I mentioned the thing about the local V. DFW Wrestling League and some of the problematic heel characters that were, you know, designed to be other othering and to be like, this is a. An enemy that you can kind of focus your disdain on. And that absolutely was the case in professional wrestling as well. I mean, they were just taking a cue from that. There was like, wasn't there? The. Something chic or something.

[Ben]

The Iron. The Iron Chic, who later went on to open restaurants.

[Noel]

But he was a bad guy, wasn't he? Wasn't the Iron Chic a baddie?

[Ben]

I would say he's kind of an anti hero. Definitely. Definitely. To your point about playing into racist or xenophobic attitudes in his heyday, yeah, Iron Sheik was often kind of a heel.

[Noel]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt]

You guys remember a wrestler named Sting?

[Ben]

Yes.

[Matt]

Way back in the day, like our

[Ben]

childhoods, I remember seeing.

[Matt]

Yeah, he lived next door to one of my best buddies, and we used to go over to his. His property, I guess it's. He was a huge property, and he had a little pond there, and we would hang out by his pond and, like, wait and try and spot Sting when he would come in or out of his property. But he was never there. I guess he was always working.

[Noel]

Guys, I'm so sorry to take a tiny little derail moment, but I just looked up a list of racially insensitive professional wrestling heels, and there are so many. There was Kamala, the Ugandan giant, a, quote, savage jungle stereotype wearing face paint. Akeem the African Dream, who's a white wrestler that was repackaged with, like, kind of these urban, quote unquote mannerisms. Saba Simba, a tribal African gimmick wearing a headdress and holding a spear. Of course, y' all probably remember Yokozuna, who is a Samoan wrestler who is actually, I believe, came from Japanese sumo tradition, but was very much packaged as this exotic other. And my personal favorite guys, the Mexicools, a Mexican trio debuting on riding lawnmowers, essentially mocking the idea of day laborers.

[Ben]

And in this, for a pop culture reference, folks, in this we see an industry at play. One of the best fictional examples of that in recent discourse is going to be the way Vought International handles and packages the supes in the adaptation of the graphic novel the Woods.

[Noel]

Really good point, Ben. A lot of wrestling analogues there, for sure.

[Ben]

Sure. Ye. Yeah. If you read the graphic novels, I don't know how often this happens in the adaptation, but if you read the comics, there's this entire consistent through line of Vought departments, accounting and marketing and PR and so on, going to this person and saying, okay, so here's your background, all right? You're an Atlantean prince. And the person with the superpowers is going, yeah, but also, Atlantis isn't real. And they're like, we'll get to that. We're going to figure that one out in Q3. That's what happens a lot with real life pro wrestling. It is a massive success. It turns out that audiences don't really care about anything past being entertained. Right. And you can propagandize, like you're saying Noel, with these heels that sort of echo the concerns of the American zeitgeist over time. And then later the Mexican Canadian zeitgeist, so on and so forth. They make so much money. Huge professional empires, wwe, wwf. They are fundamental parts of American culture very soon after their creation. Right now, these are the best stats we have right now, folks. As of last year, as of 2025 were recorded on Friday, July 10th, 2026. The market size of the pro wrestling industry overall is $5.33 billion. That's not the number that should amaze us. The number that should amaze us is the forecasted growth, an industry that will be $12.96 billion by 2033.

[Matt]

Now, hold on. So much money, Ben, is that including all of TKO's stuff, or is that just. So that's all these various wrestling organizations

[Ben]

across the planet, not including ufc. Okay. Which is actual comedy, which is a sport for sure.

[Noel]

Yeah.

[Ben]

And a sport.

[Noel]

Yeah.

[Ben]

And. And not choreographed.

[Noel]

I think it's also worth mentioning, I'm so sorry, just that you can't get numbers like that if you're only appealing to, like, 50% of the population. Like, there's this perception, I think, that wrestling fandom is. Is exclusively or in large part like folks that maybe live in southern, you know, parts of the country or reside politically on the right. That is just so not true. It is so universally beloved. I have some incredibly smart friends, you know, who I've known for a very, very long time, who are obsessed with professional wrestling unironically. And I just wanted to point that out. Maybe that's obvious, but it's something that didn't occur to me, and I was maybe a little bit bubbled in my view of it, but I had my perspective changed just by knowing people who are, like, really into this stuff.

[Ben]

Yeah, your bell rung. Also, while we're giving shout outs here, I'd love to shout out our longtime friend, erstwhile guest on the show, Robert Lamb. Great example. Author, and very unironically adores wrestling. Check out his awesome show that he does with another friend of our show, Joe McCormick. It's called Stuff to blow your mind. It's available right now on Netflix. It is the best scientific exploration show on the planet.

[Noel]

Smart boys, and very nerdy in the Best way.

[Ben]

I mean that weirdly funny. Also, also, I'll say it, Rob, don't get mad, but as a great compliment, you do kind of remind me of David bowie in the 70s. Good looking man, good looking guy.

[Matt]

So it's the sideburns. It's always been the sideburns for me in the like, slightly longer hair.

[Noel]

I'm like, yeah, dude.

[Matt]

I just want to make one last point here. The when we think about the universal appeal of this type of wrestling that we're describing and the amount of money that it can generate worldwide, think about people like the Rock and John Cena and think about how many human beings on the planet would recognize those two faces no matter where you are on the planet. And how excited people get when those folks show up anywhere or when they show up in a movie. And it's the universal appeal just cannot be downplayed.

[Ben]

Absolutely. And that's a great point, Matt. We know there's so much money on the line. We also know that in most cases, the individual wrestlers that you would recognize, unless they're breakout superstars, they're not making as much money as you think. Their jobs are really, really tough. And with so much financial heft, this multi billion dollar industry, it should not surprise you when we tell you that this industry is the subject of numerous conspiracy theories, some of which are wholesome, we would argue, and some of which are much darker than others. How about we take a break for a word from our sponsors and, and then, you know, hop in the ring. Ding, ding, ding. Hey, folks, have you ever picked up something at the grocery store that looked healthy? You know, but then you flip it over and you see the list of ingredients and you're saying, I can't pronounce half of these things.

[Noel]

That's true. And that's exactly why you should check out Wise Code, the Ultra Processed Food Detector. All you got to do is scan a product and instantly you can see whether it's ultra processed.

[Matt]

You can even take a step further by viewing its nutrition quality and health quality, giving you a better understanding of what's really in the food you're picking up.

[Ben]

So don't delay. Download Wise code, that's W I, S e code, all one word on the app store today and make grocery shopping a little easier.

[Mangesha]

I'm Mangisha together and I'm back with a new season of the podcast Skyline Drive. This time I'm diving into a rabbit hole of peptides, organoids, blood boys, blue zones and brain replacement to try to understand what this longevity obsession is all about and what it really means to live forever for all of us. I learned about some rad science.

[Ben]

I can make a brain for you

[Matt]

and then we can test what drug

[Ben]

is the best for your brain as opposed to his brain.

[Mangesha]

Here are some hard truths.

[Ben]

I would expect Indians to age faster,

[Matt]

but I did not expect it to be almost a four to five year

[Mangesha]

acceleration and get myself into a world of trouble.

[Matt]

I'd say probably start bone smashing. That doesn't work.

[Rebecca Nagle]

Make it look more defined.

[Matt]

They say it works.

[Ben]

I don't know.

[Mangesha]

Listen to Skyline Drive how to Live Forever on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Unknown Historian/Commentator]

The Declaration, which is full of these beautifully rendered, you know, sentences and paragraphs about enlightenment ideals, does also have this darker history to it.

[Rebecca Nagle]

Why is it important for the darker part of the Declaration of Independence and the American Revolution? Why is it important that Americans know about it?

[Unknown Historian/Commentator]

Well, if we don't understand the full context in which our nation was founded, we won't understand the full context in which our nation now finds itself.

[Rebecca Nagle]

I'm Rebecca Nagle. Gohin Dawadon. Jalakayetli Gay la citizen of Cherokee Nation.

[Noel]

Are you guys big Chiefs fans?

[Ben]

Hell yeah.

[Rebecca Nagle]

This is First America, the true story of how the United States came to be and how we got to this present moment. Listen to First America on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Unknown Historian/Commentator]

Foreign.

[Ben]

Here's where it gets crazy. We have a word of the day for you folks. Dylan, I don't know if we have a sound cue for this. Let's get it out of the way. First we explained the origins of quote unquote actual wrestling and then pro wrestling. We talked about how there are match fixes and scripted bouts, larger than life Personas. The stuff organized crime loves, the stuff that a gambling public doesn't like. The thing is, this doesn't stop when they're out of the ring. The wrestlers were and are, or superstars as they're called by Vince McMahon. They're required to remain in character even when they are in public, no matter what it is of no consequence if they're actually fighting, if they're in public, if there are cameras or civilians around, they are in character. Mankind is always mankind. The Undertaker is always the Undertaker. This stone cold Steve Austin is always stone cold. It is due to. What about Goldberg, though, is always berg in the gold. This is the practice known as kayfabe. Word of the evening. Kayfabe. K, A, Y, F, A, B, E. Oh, also, another huge fan of wrestling, our own Jonathan Strickland, AKA the Quister.

[Noel]

Oh, that's right. That clocks. Yeah. Kayfabe. It's almost like. It's almost a form of method acting. Right. It's like staying in character, you know?

[Ben]

I like that. Yeah, yeah. Daniel D. Lewis style. It's. The etymology is so murky, you'll find people claiming it's mangled pig Latin for be fake. You'll hear people say it's named after a specific person, Kay Fabian or K. Space fabe. Or that it's a Latin alteration of the word for beware, which is kave, just meaning keep cavey. None of that has really been proven. But this is so important to wrestling as a culture. It's kind of like how carnies have their own insider language. It's kind of like how magicians have the code of magic which says you cannot reveal your tricks to outsiders. Wrestlers have to do whatever is necessary to keep the illusion alive. If there is one mortal sin in all of this, honestly problematic sport, it's not steroids. It's not accidentally hurting people. It is breaking kayfabe.

[Mangesha]

Right?

[Unknown Historian/Commentator]

Right.

[Mangesha]

Yeah.

[Matt]

I mean, the steroids are pretty important.

[Noel]

They are important. You gotta get. You gotta beef up. There's so many analogs with, like, hardcore theatrical pursuits in this kayfabe and all of this stuff, stage combat. Think about that. Like, I mean, there's so many aspects of similarities between, you know, folks that might do fighting in film or on stage, and the kinds of moves that these wrestlers have to perfect. You know, stomping on the ground when you do a punch and things like that.

[Ben]

I love that point. Yeah. Because two quick things about kayfabe. Yes. This is the biggest conspiracy, technically, of pro wrestling, because it's central to the entire operation, the entire initiative. But it's also harmless fun. It's kind of wholesome when you think about it. Like the Santa Claus conspiracy. Look that one up. We're not going to ruin it for you, if you're listening and you're for some reason under 7 years old. But this is like, if you're a kid, you're watching your favorite action figures come to life. There are clear good guys and bad guys. There's a moral prerogative baked in. You know who to cheer for. And second, and this, I think, a point that we all really want to emphasize, folks. Just because kayfabe is in play, just because there's loose scripting, this doesn't make the wrestlers themselves any less athletic at all. These are professionals. They train at their craft constantly, sometimes beyond the strictures of athletes in other disciplines. I mean, sure, that. Let's make one up. That backflip, choke slam, double whammy, Smell the rock, Hallelujah, Hear me twice. Whatever that move is, it's probably planned in advance. They probably practice it a lot. But we cannot make the mistake. These folks really can fight. And at times, real fights do occur in the ring because there are egos involved.

[Matt]

It's kind of complex in a way, because you can look at somebody like Brock Lesnar, who was a huge wrestling star and then made his way into the UFC world and then, you know, was pretty successful. The dude is 6, 3, 265 pounds. So he's a giant guy, right? He's also extremely athletic for that size. And he's. He had been training to do those kinds of moves, man. You're talking about, like, the incredibly athletic moves with a huge body, which is crazy impressive, and the number of times you have to rehearse a move like that when you are so big just to get it right, that's. That's crazy. But then you put him in a ring where you just have to fight somebody, and it's all very real, and you. You are hurting somebody and someone is hurting you. And you can see. I mean, he has a pretty good record. I'm looking at. I think it's five and four, maybe five and three, that he ended up going. But when he did face off, like, early on against somebody like Frank Meir, that was a professional fighter who, instead of training moves like that, had been training, you know, actual combat moves his entire career, it was a different thing. I'm not saying. I'm not saying they're not fighters. I'm saying they're not the same thing as someone who's been training in UFC their whole career, rather than this really cool athletic performance.

[Ben]

Yeah, absolutely. Right. And this. This can change. You can see this, by the way, in the fact that a lot of pro wrestlers will have a longer career with more. With more bouts than ufc, right? Oh, that's. That's that. I think that's One of the easiest demarcations to make. We also know that, yeah, kayfabe, number one, conspiracy of wrestling, everybody knows may change the way some people look at wrestling, but history has proven the vast majority of audiences across demographics. To your point earlier, Noel, they don't mind at all. They want to be entertained. They want to cheer for their favorite wrestlers, grab some merch, get some memories. That's pretty awesome to be nerdy about it. From a folklore perspective, this is one of the very few things of its sort in all of the United States. It is a distinct cultural artifact.

[Noel]

100. I remember being younger and, like, learning that pro wrestling was fake and thinking that I was sort of in on some grand conspiracy sort of secret, you know. But the older you get, the more you realize, like, everybody knows, of course. And it's almost a fantastic feature, not a bug like is. It is entertainment. It's like no one believes when they're watching their favorite sitcom or, you know, TV series that they're watching something real. And the outcome, the stakes are in some way real. That doesn't diminish the enjoyment of it. And the following of the lore and the characters. That's a big part of it too, guys, is the lore and keeping track of the relationships between the goodies, the goodies and the baddies and all of the different evolutions. Sometimes you'll have a good, good guy that turns heel and stuff like that. I mean, it's all about the long. The long game of the drama.

[Ben]

Yeah, the storytelling. Joseph Cavill would love it. And also, let's. Let's exercise empathy. You know, kayfabe is happening. You're having a great time at a show. Are you going to be that absolute piece of trash who leans over to a kid and says, hey, the undertaker doesn't actually have superpowers? Like, why would you be such a negative? Like, why would you be such a wet rag about that? Let people have fun.

[Noel]

I would hope that none of us would. But it also reminds me of the conversation we recently had on listener mail around our conversation of worship versus belief. And, you know, how sports in the U.S. much like money, sort of takes on qualities of worship and religion. And to the point of the listener that wrote in, I think there's a lot of truth to the fact that you can kind of take on that same reverence, even though if, you know, the thing that you're sort of revering isn't quote unquote real.

[Ben]

And, you know, so I think we've got kayfabe down the issue Is as we teased. There are a lot. There are many more conspiracies in the world of wrestling and they get much darker very quickly. We, we mentioned, we teased steroids a little bit. That is one of the darker wrestling conspiracies. We have to talk about it. It is one of the longest running disturbing shadows haunting the industry. Performance enhancing drugs, particularly anabolic steroids. Get this, folks, if you're not familiar with wrestling and you're wondering why these folks were so big. Up until, up until just a few decades ago, steroid use was pretty much in practice, perfectly legal in wrestling all the way up to 1991. That's when it was outlawed. 1991. It was because of the Controlled Substances Act. And they're specifically, you know, we're talking about anabolic steroids. Don't use them. They've got a high. They've got proven medical efficacy for some conditions, but they are used by people who seek to increase the muscle size of their body, their strength and aspects of physical performance. They've got a lot of severely gnarly side effects. Check your balls. They. Those side effects can also include death.

[Matt]

They didn't seem to harm Hulk Hogan's junk too badly, at least according to that tape that came out. Oh, you saw the tape back in the day. Oh, no, I don't.

[Noel]

I didn't either, but I did hear tell.

[Matt]

I'm assuming I didn't hear anyone going, oh, wow, that was underwhelming.

[Ben]

Or wow, your balls are strange.

[Noel]

Shrinkage, guys. Shrinkage.

[Ben]

Is that two? Are they two really close? Is that one okay?

[Matt]

I was pointing out that he was one of the people that early on was saying, yeah, I've been doing anabolic steroids since the 80s with Vince McMahon.

[Noel]

Well, that's the thing too. I mean, I was good friends with a pretty. A relatively elite athlete. Athletes many years ago. And the way he put it was, it's just if you're not doing steroids, you're not in the game. You know, it's like you can't. There is. It's not an equal playing field per se, but it certainly isn't an equal playing field that some people are doing them. And you're the only one that's not because you just can't compete in the same way. And I think that's definitely true in terms of. Because so much of the wrestling stuff is all about how buff do you look? And like maintaining that larger than life character.

[Ben]

Yeah, it's. It's the Stone Chair meets Keeping up with the Joneses Right. It's a prisoner's dilemma in some ways. Vince McMahon was chairman of the then World Wrestling Federation. In response to the Controlled Substances act and, and the outcry about the rampant abuse of steroids wrestling, he went forward and he made this strident public commitment to a drug free environment in pro wrestling. He said, we're introducing a rigorous voluntary, independent drug testing policy. And the company says this is going to tackle the steroid abuse. We know it's gone too far. We want all of our superstars safe, face and heel alike. We want our audience to know that they're not watching people die up there. This seemed appropriate, this seemed ethical, at least until two years later in 1993, when Vince McMahon himself and a bunch of other people, including Hulk Hogan, are indicted on federal charges related not just to steroid use, but to steroid distribution. So pretty much from the moment of that 1991 backlash and that McMahon's statement from that moment during the whole thing, they were internally pressuring people to use steroids and helping them acquire those steroids.

[Matt]

There was one wrestler who alleged Vince McMahon told him backstage after the show, hey man, you need to hit the gas, because he just wasn't big enough, you know, like, he didn't, he didn't look like those, the other bodies that are on the stage of the universe.

[Noel]

Action figure, right?

[Matt]

Yeah, the crazy ones with all the veins and all the, all that crap. He just didn't look like that. And again, that's testimony that he alleged. Right, but that will. There's so much weirdness in that because you're trying to get people to speak against the organization or testify against the organization that has enriched you and your family, which is kind of weird because they changed a rule about this drug or about this substance.

[Ben]

Right? Yeah. And we do have to mention in the interest of objectivity and Fairness, folks, that McMahon was ultimately acquitted on all charges. As we'll see, this happens to him pretty often. But the trial did reveal a ton of wrestlers were taking these drug tests, were failing these drug tests because they were definitely on steroids. They were getting put back in the ring. So the industry won the court case, but they lost the case of public opinion. They lost a lot of trust that would be incredibly difficult to regain. And so from like 92 to 1996, there were increasing arrest and controversies. At the end of the steroid era, or whatever we want to call it, WWF started putting in publicly stricter policies. They did more drug testing. They wanted to regain the public's trust. And you know the public's money. They also had, they had a reckoning, they had a crossroads moment where they said, wow, steroid use is super deep in our culture. It is riddled with it. Like you were saying, Noel, keeping up with the Joneses. So many people had heart issues, liver damage, hormonal imbalances, not to mention the mood swings, surges of premature death.

[Noel]

Probably worth mentioning too that anabolic steroids weren't scheduled as a controlled substance until the Steroid control Act of 1990, which scheduled them under Schedule 3 of the Controlled Substances act. And that went into effect in February of 1991 and then it's since been expanded because of like, you know, designer versions and stuff. They are, they did remain legal under prescription for what you were describing, Ben, as valid medical uses. However, non medical, quote unquote use and possession and distribution remains.

[Ben]

Yeah, again, like we said, the Controlled substances Act of 1991 changed the game and it definitely saved some wrestlers lives. We teased something else too that we have to get to. This is why we had a disclaimer at the top, folks. We're going to get into some very disturbing allegations of something not related to steroids. It is related to trafficking and sexual abuse. So we're going to pause for a word from our sponsors and then we'll dive in.

[Noel]

This episode of Stuff they don't want you to know is brought to you by Wise Code. Guys. You know, these days it feels like every product of the grocery store claims to be healthy and all natural or, you know, better for you than than the other stuff. But that often ends up being quite the misleading proposition.

[Matt]

Oh yeah. Once you turn the package over, you're left trying to figure out what these ingredients are. Often they're difficult to pronounce and understand.

[Ben]

Yeah, and that's where Wise Code comes in, folks. Wise Code is your new ultra processed food detector. It takes the guesswork out of grocery shopping.

[Noel]

Yep, it sure does. And all you have to do is scan your product, whatever you've picked up that you're questioning with your phone and instantly you'll be able to see whether or not it is ultra processed. And it'll even give you even further insights into things like nutrition.

[Matt]

Oh yes, with Wise Code, you can look into all kinds of stuff on nutrition, quality, health quality. It'll help you understand what's inside that thing, especially if it's packaged before you purchase it.

[Ben]

Yeah, and it doesn't matter if you're shopping for yourself or your family or just trying to make more informed, healthier food choices. Wisecode is here to give you another layer of crucial information right at your fingertips.

[Noel]

It's quick, easy to use and designed to help you navigate the grocery store with more confidence.

[Matt]

Download wise code that's W I S E C O D E the ultra Processed Food Detector on the App Store today and start discovering what's really inside the foods you buy.

[Mangesha]

I'm Mangesha together and I'm back with a new season of the podcast Skyline Drive. This time I'm diving into a rabbit hole of peptides, organoids, blood boys, blue zones and brain replacement to try to understand what this longevity of obsession is all about and what it really means to live forever for all of us. I learned about some rad science.

[Ben]

I can make a brain for you

[Matt]

and then we can test what drug

[Ben]

is the best for your brain as opposed to his brain.

[Mangesha]

Here are some hard truths.

[Matt]

I would expect Indians to age faster, but I did not expect it to be almost 84 to 5 year acceleration

[Mangesha]

and get myself into a world of trouble.

[Matt]

I'd say probably start bone smashing. That doesn't work.

[Rebecca Nagle]

Make it look more defined.

[Matt]

They say it works.

[Ben]

I don't know.

[Mangesha]

Listen to Skyline Drive how to Live Forever on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

If you're seeking to try to understand the forensic science behind these cases that we hear about in the news, Body bags is where you need to turn. There's no fluff. We do a deep dive into the forensics. Listen to Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan and start listening.

[Unknown Historian/Commentator]

The Declaration, which is full of these beautifully rendered, you know, sentences and paragraphs about enlightenment ideals, does also have this darker history to it.

[Rebecca Nagle]

Why is it important for the darker part of the Declaration of Independence and the American Revolution? Why is it important that Americans know about it?

[Unknown Historian/Commentator]

Well, if we don't understand the full context in which our nation was founded, we won't understand the full context in which our nation now finds itself.

[Rebecca Nagle]

I'm Rebecca Nagle. Gohin Tawa Don Jalakayetli. Que la? Citizen of Cherokee Nation.

[Noel]

Are you guys big Chiefs fans?

[Ben]

Hell yeah.

[Rebecca Nagle]

This is First America, the true story of how the United States came to be and how we got to this present moment. Listen to First America on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben]

We have returned, folks. Sadly, allegations of sexual harassment, toxic work culture, misconduct, and even assault are not new to pro wrestling. In January of 2024, we're gonna jump around in time a little bit. A scandal rocked the industry. A former WWE employee named Janelle Grant alleged that none other than the big dog himself, Vince McMahon, had sexually trafficked her, had sexually assaulted her himself at the company's headquarters in Connecticut. And this was far from the first accusation of this sort. We know that two years prior to 2024, WWE's board of directors launched an internal investigation in which we believe they discovered that Vince McMahon had used company money to make $12 million worth of hush payments to no less than four women, two of whom accused him of sexual misconduct or assault. We don't know the full results of their investigation because the board of directors announced that they had concluded what they were looking into and never disclosed the full results.

[Noel]

Sounds eerily familiar with some behaviors linked to our current sitting president. And we of course know that he and Vince McMahon were buddies and that currently Vince McMahon's wife is the head of the Department of Education.

[Matt]

So wait a minute. Are you talking about the guy that once purchased the WWE in a giant event stunt thing from like 2009? That guy that came out and said, oh no, I'm buying the wwe. And then it turned out he didn't.

[Noel]

Correct.

[Ben]

Yeah, that's the guy.

[Noel]

Donald Trump with WWE heel fame.

[Matt]

Okay, okay.

[Ben]

We're also talking about McMahon's case. A guy who was accused by an employee at a tanning salon in Boca Raton, Florida of harassing and groping her. That's 2006. They came forward. And that's not the only tanning salon person who came forward.

[Matt]

That's very interesting. One you can find on Newspapers.com, a resource we highly recommend you use. You will have to pay for it pretty quickly in your journey with the site, but you can find actual images of newspaper clippings. And there is one you can find here from Boca Raton in this place, Tanzibar, where I guess Vince McMahon used to frequent. And a description of what allegedly happened and also a statement by his daughter who was the co CEO of WWE for a while now. I'm not exactly sure where she stands in the company at this moment, but just statements by the family going, eh, there's nothing to see here.

[Unknown Historian/Commentator]

Yeah.

[Ben]

And that is. I've linked it here in our notes. That is from the Palm Beach Post, Wednesday, February 1, 2006. And it's exactly as you're describing there, Matt. We know it gets worse. You go back to 1992, you see a former WWF referee named Rita Chatterton who said that McMahon assaulted her all the way back in 1986. It led to an out of court settlement. We don't know the terms of that settlement. We do know that Chatterton originally sought something like $11.75 million in damages in her lawsuit, not just restricted to female identifying employees of the wrestling organizations. A wrestler named Kevin Patrick Washolz. Excuse my pronunciation. W A C H O L Z. Better known by his stage name Nails. He filed a lawsuit similar to what you were talking about, Matt, wherein he said McMahon didn't just tell him to take steroids, but he also sexually assaulted him.

[Matt]

He's the guy who said he was compelled to give testimony and made that statement about being told he needs to get on the gas. It's a weird tale where I'm trying to imagine being his position where you've got federal people coming to you and saying no, you have to testify. He doesn't want to testify. But he also doesn't like his former employer that much. He seems to have a problem with McMahon because McMahon fired him a little while after that alleged conversation. And that calls into question his testimony. Right. Does he have bad blood with the person that he's now talking crap about? Who knows? It all becomes very murky. At least I'm. The stuff I'm talking about is in what was it in wrestlinginc.com they have a very interesting article titled the 1993 Steroid Scandal that Rattled WWE. That was written back in January of 24. So that's where I'm getting my info. I don't know if it's fully correct.

[Ben]

Yeah, well, I mean it is definitely. We use Wrestling Inc. For a source for a lot of our research here. We also know that you can go to the New York Times and see their July 12, 1994 article about nails the wrestler and testifying he was told to use steroids as you said, Matt, due to pressure from the court. And then there's a separate tanning business in California. A spa worker there files a lawsuit alleging McMahon sexually assaulted her in 2011. These are not even all of the allegations on the record, but they are damning litany. Even if only some of those are true and it seems like wrestling officials agree that some of them are. What we're seeing is a pattern of behavior over time, over decades, not a one off incident. So it's best for us to understand the Janelle Grant case as almost like a proverbial straw that broke the monstrous camel's Back. This is what leads Vince McMahon to resign. Sort of caveat, asterisk, fine print. He does. Okay, he does resign from wwe, but he's still the largest single shareholder. Like you said, it's a family business. So his daughter is attaining increasing importance in the C suite. January of 2023, I think it is. He returns from retirement as the executive chairman of wwe right before it merges with UFC to create the group TKO Group Holdings. And then once that merger is complete, once everybody's made their vigorish. McMahon resides from TKO the next year in 2024. I don't know, guys. The room where it happens.

[Matt]

Their stock price was crazy. Like, everything was going gangbusters there to make that sale. It was a. It was a huge deal. It's all about the money. Make the plays to get the excitement, to get investors excited, and then kick it off and bring the guy back. Wait, what did you say?

[Noel]

I said pump and dump. I mean, I mean, it's just manipulation. It's all, you know, smoke and mirrors.

[Ben]

It's all pixie dust. I feel like the stock market, we should admit that the stock market in general is just manipulation at this point.

[Noel]

To a degree, that's very true, especially when we consider things like corrections that occur when basically things are overvalued for way too long. And the people that are in the know are the ones that are always set up to benefit from those things, and everybody else holds the bag.

[Matt]

It's been a weird journey to. To be a UFC fan from a while back and just to see how that organization has changed and how Dana White has always kind of been there at the center. But there's always. There's a group of people that own the organizations, right? There's Zufa and there's. There's all these other organizations that kind of factor into what the UFC has become. And then seeing those folks kind of come together with the WWE folks and form this new TKO thing, and then for them to go merge into boxing. They have Zufa boxing now, and they have guys. They have. Remember there was that slap slap championship thing that we talked about. Another thing they have is called pbr, which we all know is a can and a delicious light beer.

[Noel]

Tell me where this blue Ribbon award took place. I just don't know if I.

[Matt]

Whatever. I still enjoy.

[Noel]

Is this. Is this a competition where you smash cans into your face? What is.

[Matt]

No, no, no. It's a bull riding kind of championship organization, but it's a huge deal in that world. And this is. This is the same company that owns it. It's just fascinating to see how much reach one company, one giant conglomerate, what, everything they can gobble up and then end up having this global reach of a thing that we already knew had global reach.

[Ben]

And if the financial conspiracies or shenanigans and the sexual assault shenanigans and oh, the steroid shenanigans weren't enough to persuade you that wrestling is riddled with conspiracy and corruption, we have to take yet another dark turn and let you know that it turns out a significant amount of individual wrestlers have at one point or another been charged with murder.

[Noel]

Well, Ben, I think it's not for nothing that there's the roid rage of it all. You know, we mentioned earlier this idea of behavioral issues associated with long term use of anabolic steroids. These are the kinds of things that I could imagine could drive people to a level of unchecked aggression that might cause a domestic situation that ends horrifically.

[Ben]

Yeah, I used to hear it being called getting testy, like testosterone getting testy when you're to write it up in earlier evenings. But you're absolutely right, Noel. We know there are cases like just three quick ones, honestly. Billy Jack Haynes was 70 years old when he was arrested in February 2024, two years ago at the end of an unrelated hospital stay. And he was accused in connection of his wife's murder. Real name William Albert Haynes junior. He had been taken to the hospital after he had a two hour standoff with authorities in Portland, Oregon. The entire neighborhood he was in was told to shelter in place. When police finally got to his home, they found his 85 year old wife was dead in an apparent shooting. He was charged Haynes with second degree murder as soon as he was released from the hospital. Interestingly enough, he's also one of the guys who spearheaded that massive class action lawsuit against WWE for a traumatic brain injury. That case was also dismissed later. A lot of these things are dismissed, like Vince McMahon has never been convicted, which is darkly fascinating.

[Matt]

You know there's a string of like early deaths. So like health related issues with a lot of former wrestlers. There was, there was a list on the Bleacher Report that they put out with folks like Carrie Von Erich, Brian Pillman, Lance Cade, a bunch of these folks, some of them took their own lives, but a lot of them like Eddie Guerrero pass, they pass away because their heart gives out on them. And you imagine like is that directly related to steroid use? Is that directly related to strain that you get in training for the ring and in the ring. Is it completely unrelated? Is it even a scandal at all? Or is it just part of the game? I mean the, the taking your own life is a different thing, obviously. But the heart failure, I do wonder how much that actually could be factored into that. Steroid use.

[Ben]

Agreed. I mean we, we know that there are so many, so many cases of people dying that simply cannot be attributed to some other factors. There is a pattern at play when we go to it. I appreciate that point about suicide as well, which should be bracketed and going back to the pattern of homicide. To your point, Roid rage, we, as we were saying, behavioral issues, which is a damning understatement. We know one of the most famous cases of alleged murder occurred when Jimmy Snuka was charged in the 1983 death of his girlfriend, sent to county jail, posted bail to the tune of 100 grand. The case of his girlfriend, Argentino. Her case had previously been declared a cold case. It was reopened after an investigation in 2014, which led to Snuka being arrested in 2015. Charged with third degree murder and involuntary manslaughter. He was declared get this guy's unfit to stand trial. The charges against him were ultimately dismissed and the prosecutors felt like they had him. Those are two examples. Jose Gonzalez, DT Porter. Those are other examples. There's one that's a bit of a plot twist and it's in on a technicality if we're okay with it. Juana Barraza Semperio was a best described as a would be wrestler or self professed wrestler who was sentenced to 759 years in prison after being convicted of murdering 16 elderly women in Mexico City. This makes her commonly acknowledged as Mexico's first serial killer. So there's a lot more darkness to the wrestling industry than people might realize from the jump.

[Matt]

Did we talk about Chris Benoit? Do you guys remember that guy?

[Ben]

Yeah, the Crispin Wa Instant. Yeah, Yeah, I don't think we did,

[Noel]

but I don't know the name either. This stuff is largely under my radar, frankly. I only know like the big, the big, big names. But surprised that I haven't heard about these, these folks. What happened with Chris Benoit?

[Matt]

I think there's a documentary about that one that you can watch. Chris Benoit. I think it was one of those like there's a family, kill your family things and then yourself.

[Ben]

2007.

[Matt]

Yeah, it was really bad. It was really, really bad.

[Ben]

He asphyxiated his spouse and then also asphyxiated his son and then took his own life.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Jesus.

[Ben]

And it goes darker and darker, folks, the further you get. There may be a second episode in this topic in the future for us. Please write to us, let us know what we should cover. This is just a brief overview of some of wrestling's greatest conspiracies and scandals. And again, we cannot emphasize this enough. The vast majority of wrestling, from the champions to the staff on the ground, to the crew and the fans, it's just awesome. These are people trying to have fun, but we can never forget. In the same vein, we can never forget a culture built on kayfabe is inherently chock full of, for better or worse, the stuff they don't want you to know. Thank you so much for tuning in. Please join us for some upcoming episodes in the future. In the meantime, why not join us on the air? You can find us on the lines. You can call us on the phone. You can always send us an email.

[Noel]

You sure can find us online by reaching out to the Handle Conspiracy Stuff or Conspiracy Stuff show, depending on which social media platform you prefer.

[Matt]

Quick Plug the documentary I was thinking about is called the Dark side of the Ring. It's produced by Vice Canada. There are seven seasons and in one of those, I think it's season two. You can learn all about Chris Benoit, but there's a whole bunch like full episodes on some of the things we talked about today. So definitely check that out if you have time. If you want to give us a call, our number is 1-833-STD-W Y T K. When you call in, give yourself a cool nickname and let us know if we can use your name and message on one of our listener mail episodes that show up in the audio feed. If you've got stuff you want to write to us, send us an email. We are the entities that read each

[Ben]

piece of correspondence we receive. Be well aware, yet unafraid. Sometimes the void writes back. You can ask us for a random fact. We'll give you one. You can give us a random fact of your own choosing. We'll send one in return. You can always write to us for specific sources on an episode that we covered in the the past, and we would love to hear from you. So we'll see you out here in the dark [e-mail].

[Matt]

Stuff they Don't Want yout to Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Noel]

This episode of Stuff They Don't Want yout to Know is brought to you by Wise Code Guys. You know, these days it feels like every product of the grocery store claims to be healthy and all natural, or, you know, better for you than than the other stuff. But that often ends up being quite the misleading proposition.

[Matt]

Oh, yeah. Once you turn the package over, you're left trying to figure out what these ingredients are. Often they're difficult to pronounce and understand.

[Ben]

Yeah, and that's where Wise Code comes in, folks. Wise Code is your new Ultra Processed food detector. It takes the guesswork out of grocery shopping.

[Noel]

Yep, it sure does. And all you have to do is scan your product, whatever you've picked up that you're questioning with your phone, and instantly you'll be able to see whether or not it is ultra processed.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

And.

[Noel]

And it'll even give you even further insights into things like nutrition.

[Matt]

Oh, yes, with Wise Code, you can look into all kinds of stuff on nutrition quality, health quality. It'll help you understand what's inside that thing, especially if it's packaged before you purchase it.

[Ben]

Yeah, and it doesn't matter if you're shopping for yourself or your family or just trying to make more informed, healthier food choices. Wise Code is here to give you another layer of crucial information right at your fingertips.

[Noel]

It's quick, easy to use, and designed to help you navigate the grocery store with more confidence.

[Matt]

Download Wise Code. That's W I, S E C O D E. The Ultra Processed Food Detector on the App Store today and start discovering what's really inside the foods you buy.

[Raiders of the Lost Podcast Host]

On Raiders of the Lost podcast, we explore cinema like no one else, including huge interviews with stars like Ryan Gosling on Project Hail Mary.

[Ben]

It was like the Jaws shark. Didn't always work, came with its own problems. That's what made it great.

[Raiders of the Lost Podcast Host]

The cast of Obsession on set, there

[Matt]

was so much magic happening with each scene. We were putting together deep dives into

[Raiders of the Lost Podcast Host]

classics like 2001 A Space Odyssey or Fight Club, plus weekly episodes on all industry news. Listen to Raiders of the Lost podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And for more, follow @raidersoftheloss podcast and ICTOC podcast network on TikTok.

[Revisionist History Host]

Thirty years ago, an island off Manhattan almost brought down New York City.

[Ben]

Who will you trust? Your friends and neighbors? Who you trust? The people five miles overseas.

[Revisionist History Host]

This is a story about neighbors turning on each other. And what happens when a forgotten place decides it's had enough.

[Matt]

But we're not stopping, are we?

[Revisionist History Host]

Listen to revisionist history the Staten island problem on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

If you're seeking to try to understand the forensic science behind these cases that we hear about in the news, body bags is where you need to turn. There's no fluff. We do a deep dive into the forensics. Listen to Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan on America's number one podcast network, I Heart. Open your free I Heart app and search Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan and start listening.

[Ben]

This is an I Heart podcast, guaranteed human.