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Tracy V. Wilson (2:24)

Hey, everybody.

Electric Vehicle Advertiser (2:25)

Holly here.

Tracy V. Wilson (2:26)

A little heads up before we get into the this week's behind the Scenes. This episode is one in which Tracy and I talk about TSA screening at the Atlanta airport. And this was recorded before the current DHS shutdown, which has, of course, led to drastically prolonged security wait times at airports around the country. So just keep that in mind as you listen to us talk about how easy breezy it can sometimes be to go through security. Right now, obviously, it is much harder for everyone. I hope you're all taking care of yourselves. Welcome to Stuff youf Missed in History Class, a production of iHeartradio. Hello and happy Friday. I'm Holly Fry.

Holly Fry (3:14)

And I'm Tracy V. Wilson.

Tracy V. Wilson (3:16)

We talked about Richard Peters this week.

Holly Fry (3:18)

Yes.

Tracy V. Wilson (3:20)

And I said that I would talk about the thing. I understand. I think about Richard Peterson.

Holly Fry (3:25)

All right. You were gonna psychoanalyze him. A thing we don't normally do a lot of.

Tracy V. Wilson (3:30)

No, but I have a kinship here because all of the things that any write up about him, and especially if you've ever seen the Oakland presentations about him where a character comes out as him and talks about him, they're all very focused on how driven he was as a businessman and how, like, he was always chasing money, which can make him sound, like, shallow and greedy, but I know exactly what's going on in his head. Yeah. He is rebelling against his dad.

Holly Fry (4:03)

Yeah.

Tracy V. Wilson (4:04)

His entire life, his entire approach to everything is about saying, never me. When he thinks about the way his father operated and how many times he messed up financially, I guarantee that was what he was driving.

Holly Fry (4:19)

Right.

Tracy V. Wilson (4:20)

That's like a hundred percent. I understand this rebellious life very deeply because I'm the same way. I'm always, like 90% of my personality is about rejecting, you know, things I grew up with.

Holly Fry (4:33)

Sure.

Tracy V. Wilson (4:34)

I 100% understand. Exactly. I had this thing that was making me very frustrated because it was so hard to pin down his thoughts regarding the institution of slavery because he never says anything about it openly. There are times when he, you know, engages slave labor.

Holly Fry (5:04)

Right.

Tracy V. Wilson (5:04)

Although he is not the only person. Like, that's like a company standard that was going on during some of these things. And certainly his grandfather, we mentioned, you know, had indentured servants, so there had to have been part of him that was just accustomed to similar concepts. But I was literally like, this cannot be that. There is literally nothing solid about his position on this issue other than, yo, my fellow Southerners, don't. Don't do this. Don't go into this war. If you love slavery, you're going to lose it anyway, so don't do this. There's nothing about him that. That ever comments on the morality of it other than saying, the rest of the world already thinks this is absolutely wrong. And I thought I was going nuts. I was like, what am I missing? And then I was looking at another biography about him that was, like, similarly frustrated. And I was like, okay, if you spent the time researching and writing this and you couldn't find anything, I think I have. I have turned over all the rocks, and there's not some secret somewhere that I would have access to. So that is frustrating about him. He certainly benefited from it in some ways. Like I said, was very open that he knew that it was wrong, the world thought it was wrong, but not like his personal. And I think sometimes he gets very kind of whitewashed in tellings about Atlanta history because they're like, he didn't want. And it's like, well, I mean, the scales do seem to lean that way in some ways, but also, like, you cannot forget this other stuff that went on over.

Holly Fry (6:41)

Right, right.

Tracy V. Wilson (6:43)

So he's a little tricky in that regard. His thing that we referred to a couple times is his memoir, which is really a biography of him written by a relative when he was in his 70s. That starts out with a very long. I mean, it's basically like an interview with him. It's just him telling stories, like, talking through his life story, which ends very abruptly at leaving Atlanta during the Civil War. Like, I didn't even find anything that was specific about how he got out.

Holly Fry (7:14)

Oh, yeah.

Tracy V. Wilson (7:14)

Just like I was running all over the city trying to check on all the railroads. You know, people kept telling me to leave or that there were Yankees coming and that it was not going to be safe. You know, we knew that fires had started. Boy, I barely made it out of there. And then it's like, the relative that's writing it kind of picks up there and is like. And then he was really tired. And then they tell the rest of his story through letters. And it's kind of funny, like, his correspondence back and forth with people. It is kind of funny in that regard. But I like having his point of view because he was very funny in telling his stories. And, like, I Said it's very obvious that he had disdain for his father. He would never say anything like, my father was really stupid or blah, blah, blah. But he would be like, well, we lost everything, and then we got it again. And then we lost it again. Then we got it again. And then at one point, my dad mailed me $10, and I mailed it back to him because he told me he was super flush. And then the next time I saw him, he was talking about how he had nothing. So that kept happening. Like, it's just. Yeah, just very interesting. He, like I said, had many witty anecdotes, but one of them that I liked was him talking about the first time he went to Atlanta, which was in 1844. And the thing that I love is actually what he says about somebody else that was on the trip with him. He says, quote, it was after dark when we arrived, and Judge King, unfortunately fell in a well which was being dug.

Holly Fry (8:49)

What?

Tracy V. Wilson (8:49)

It was only 10ft deep. And we soon pulled him out from. But he was highly disgusted and for years would not buy Atlanta real estate.

Holly Fry (8:58)

That's amazing.

Tracy V. Wilson (9:00)

I love that this person was just mad at all of Atlanta because he fell in a well.

Holly Fry (9:04)

It's reminding me of how decades ago, I had a boyfriend who broke up with me. And my. My impression of what had happened was that he had left me for somebody he was hanging out with in Charlotte. And then I just had a vendetta against the whole city of Charlotte for years afterward. I was like, no, I'm not going there. Not going to visit there. I hate it. Not anybody from there.

Tracy V. Wilson (9:31)

Yeah, that's fair. Similar, except he fell in a well. I just love that. Love it. He also apparently had all of these maxims he would tell his children and his grandchildren, okay. And some of them are very, like, obvious things, you know, about just like, you know, being smart and, you know, treating people fairly, blah, blah, blah.

Holly Fry (9:56)

Okay.

Tracy V. Wilson (9:56)

But I loved this one that was included in that account, which was, if the weather be wet, don't fret. If the weather be cold, don't scold. But with the weather that's sent, learn to be content.

Holly Fry (10:09)

Okay?

Tracy V. Wilson (10:10)

I'm like, that's actually. That's actually pretty good advice.

Holly Fry (10:12)

Just like, it's like, you get what you get and don't be upset. It is.

Tracy V. Wilson (10:16)

It's great. Which I feel like he was very good at. And I think that's part of why he was so good at business, because he could see, like, okay, this is a mess. How can we deal with this in a Way that will ultimately not be a mess for me and make me a ton of money. Like that flour mill, where he's like, well, flour mill is not gonna go. I can't keep. I cannot keep trying to make this happen because it's right.

Holly Fry (10:42)

It's not working.

Tracy V. Wilson (10:43)

And his. His explanation for that other mill that was selling flour below cost was that the person that owned it had an ironworks that needed fast cash. Oh, so he was willing.

Holly Fry (10:54)

Yeah. It's like the lost leader for the ironworks.

Tracy V. Wilson (10:56)

He was willing to lose out over here so that he could actually keep this other thing going. Which is interesting, but. Yeah. Where he's like, what can I do here? I know I'll just sell these things and make a huge profit. And he did. Astonishing. There are many other things about the city that are attributed to him and his family. Like Ivy hall, which is now owned by the Savannah College of Art and design, was built by his son Edward in 1883, when Richard was still alive. You know, they're just like a kajillion little things like that. I still just like looking at a map of downtown Atlanta, I'm like. And midtown, I'm like, he owned all of this. It reminds me a little bit of when we talked about Levi Strauss and bought so much real estate in San Francisco.

Holly Fry (11:43)

Right.

Tracy V. Wilson (11:43)

And the prices went way up. And now you can do that. I also want to talk about Oakland Cemetery, because I love it.

Holly Fry (11:50)

Yeah.

Tracy V. Wilson (11:51)

Oakland is unique because it's one of the few places in Atlanta that was not destroyed in the Civil War.

Holly Fry (12:00)

Right.

Tracy V. Wilson (12:01)

And it was founded before that, of course. So it offers, you know, a lot of history that would have. Would have been lost. One of the things that I read while I was prepping this, and I think I knew this from before, was that the last lots that were sold at Oakland were sold in 1888, but they were sold and purchased by families in large numbers. So they are still doing.

Holly Fry (12:30)

Yeah.

Tracy V. Wilson (12:31)

Active burials of family members descended from those people who purchased those lots.

Holly Fry (12:37)

Yeah.

Tracy V. Wilson (12:38)

150 years almost later.

Holly Fry (12:40)

Right.

Tracy V. Wilson (12:41)

Wild.

Holly Fry (12:43)

Yeah. Many years ago, we were talking about Oakland Cemetery. And an event of some sort that had happened had been that we had gone to One or both of us had gone to it.

Tracy V. Wilson (12:55)

Oh, I know exactly what you're about to talk about. Cause I was gonna talk about it, too.

Holly Fry (12:58)

And someone in the comments was so upset.

Tracy V. Wilson (13:02)

Yes.

Holly Fry (13:03)

At the idea of a cemetery being used as a public green space when that was what cemeteries like this were created to do, to be both a place for the burial of the Dead, but also a public green space.

Tracy V. Wilson (13:23)

Yes. I could tell you exactly the specifics of what they were mad about.

Holly Fry (13:27)

Okay. Because I don't remember that detail.

Tracy V. Wilson (13:30)

It was a 5k. It was a 5k called Run like hell. So when Atlanta had tornadoes, I don't remember what year that was. There was a lot of damage at Oakland, and Oakland is a cemetery that does not have its own, like, internal upkeep maintenance fund. So that group that we mentioned at the end of the episode, the Historic Oakland foundation, basically does a variety of things so that they can raise money to do this. And after that tornado, someone in the foundation came up with this idea of, what if we had a 5k that goes through the cemetery and in the surrounding neighborhoods?

Holly Fry (14:11)

Yeah.

Tracy V. Wilson (14:12)

And I was like, I'm all in. This is exactly my flavor of 5K. And I ran it for several years, and we had posted a picture of me from that race on our Facebook page. And that's what somebody got really irate. About. And I think they had it in their heads that we were just, like, racing over graves, when, in fact, there's, like, a whole paved path area through that that's quite wide and easily traversable. But also, like, if they don't do things like that, that cemetery falls apart.

Holly Fry (14:39)

Right, Right.

Tracy V. Wilson (14:40)

Like, I. And they do lots of great stuff there. They do, like, a big picnic there every year where people show up in amazing historical costumes.

Holly Fry (14:48)

I went to that. A.

Tracy V. Wilson (14:50)

They do. I forget the name of it. They do, like, a brews in the tombs thing, which you're not actually in the tombs, but, like, they'll do, like, a beer night there where they have local vendors come out and do craft beers and stuff. They do so many great things, and a lot of it is great for the community. It keeps the history of the space alive. Cause they do have people that come out and talk about the people who are buried there and the important history of it. And also, you know, just all of these pieces of Atlanta history and the community history that I always think about that person. I got really mad, and I'm like, I'm sorry you got mad, but I think you've misunderstood.

Holly Fry (15:25)

Yeah, well, and I think they. They were upset because they were like, if my family member was being buried and there was a road race going by, I would be really upset.

Tracy V. Wilson (15:33)

And.

Holly Fry (15:34)

Yeah, I. I see that point of view. I. Ideally, a family would not plan their loved one's burial during the 5K. Like, there would be some communication there.

Tracy V. Wilson (15:47)

Exactly. There is, you know, cross comparison of calendars in my Play. And I know you can't always plan. You know, you can't plan when a loved one is gonna die and you will need funeral services, but you could still, you know, work with the schedule to make it all happen. Yeah, well, and it happens all the time.

Holly Fry (16:09)

People whose family members are being buried at Oakland know that it is both a. A burial space and a green space where things like this happen. Like.

Tracy V. Wilson (16:21)

Yeah, just a community space.

Holly Fry (16:23)

Part of it.

Tracy V. Wilson (16:23)

Yeah.

Holly Fry (16:24)

Yeah.

Tracy V. Wilson (16:24)

And it's beautiful. I feel like so many people I know love Oakland. It's one of their favorite places in Atlanta.

Holly Fry (16:29)

Yeah. I remember when that tornado happened. I don't remember if I was still living there.

Tracy V. Wilson (16:35)

That's.

Holly Fry (16:36)

My memory on the timeline is vague, but I remember when that happened and how there were a lot of, like, monuments that had been toppled and had to be repaired.

Tracy V. Wilson (16:43)

You absolutely were. You absolutely were still living here. Yes. Because that was before, I think you and I were doing this podcast.

Holly Fry (16:53)

Oh, so long ago.

Tracy V. Wilson (16:56)

I'm pretty sure I could be wrong, but I think, I think. Yeah, that was rough.

Holly Fry (17:07)

If I'm remembering correctly, at one of the events that I went to at Oakland, there was somebody who did a one person show of Gone with the Wind. Yeah.

Tracy V. Wilson (17:18)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Holly Fry (17:19)

So funny.

Tracy V. Wilson (17:20)

Yeah. Just great. Just great. I. Yeah, I love it. I love it. Listen, we don't talk about Atlanta history very much.

Holly Fry (17:29)

No. We have a lot more Massachusetts crap from me.

Tracy V. Wilson (17:33)

And it does tickle me to no end that all of the things that people talk about as quintessential Atlanta, many of them were instituted by a dude from Philadelphia.

Holly Fry (17:41)

Yeah, I did not know that at all.

Tracy V. Wilson (17:43)

That does tickle me a little. I'm like, yeah. Guess what?

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Tracy V. Wilson (18:27)

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Tracy V. Wilson (18:46)

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Holly Fry (19:03)

I think I might just have solved a murder, Vera.

Tracy V. Wilson (19:05)

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Tracy V. Wilson (20:47)

I did also want to mention.

Holly Fry (20:53)

I like how tickled you are by whatever it is.

Tracy V. Wilson (20:55)

Well, because I don't even know how to talk about it without it's so absurd that it's funny to me and I have to air quotes this the Grid of.

Holly Fry (21:05)

It

Tracy V. Wilson (21:09)

is a mess, right?

Holly Fry (21:10)

It is a mess.

Tracy V. Wilson (21:11)

There are parts of downtown and Midtown that have some grid to them, but there's also some cockamamie stuff going on.

Holly Fry (21:17)

Just goes through randomly.

Tracy V. Wilson (21:18)

Part of that is my understanding I haven't fact checked this, is that some of it was like, this was a cow path and then we paved it, and now it is a road.

Holly Fry (21:27)

Right.

Tracy V. Wilson (21:28)

Which is not all that unusual in various places. But in a city that grew as big as Atlanta did, it's kind of unusual that they would be retained as roads and not restructured to make the infrastructure more square. But that just like every time I was reading something that said he named the north to south roads this. And I'm like, well, they're kind of north to south. They're. They're a little meandery at times.

Holly Fry (21:52)

Yeah.

Tracy V. Wilson (21:53)

And I didn't even delve into you because does this get you. When people talk about Peachtree and they go, which one? There are so many and there are so many. But if you live in Atlanta and someone says it's on Peachtree, you know which one they mean?

Holly Fry (22:10)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tracy V. Wilson (22:12)

So for anybody that's outside the city, I understand that when you encounter in your directions in your GPs, Peachtree Place, Peachtree Circle, Peachtree Terrace, et cetera, it's all frustrating and confusing. But if you say Peachtree Road, there's the one road that they mean.

Holly Fry (22:30)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I also just want to have a little bit of love for Hartsfield Jackson International Airport.

Tracy V. Wilson (22:41)

I love that airport because I feel

Holly Fry (22:43)

like the Atlanta airport gets a lot of grief from travelers. And I understand is a Delta hub. It is very big. So if you have to go from one terminal to another, it might be a long way. If you have a connection. Yes, it is very busy. The security lines can be very long. I've just said a lot of downsides to the Atlanta airport, but I love how. How big it is. I love how spacious a lot of it is. I love the plane train that takes you to all the different terminals, or you can walk through the tunnel and look at all the beautiful art that's down there. If you have time and all the historical displays, if you have time, if you want something to eat and it's not in the terminal that you're in and you have a lot of time, you can go to the other terminal and get back. It is not a problem. I used to go to the international terminal routinely and have my dinner there because it was bright and pretty and brand new. And then I would Go to wherever my actual airplane was taking off. Yeah.

Tracy V. Wilson (23:50)

It also has like full size stores.

Holly Fry (23:53)

Yeah, yeah.

Tracy V. Wilson (23:54)

Like that are not the little kiosky style or even like I call them pocket stores. Like those little, you know, mini ones that are like a tiny bodega of makeup, but like full size.

Holly Fry (24:05)

Yeah. I used to use a lot of products from the body shop and there was a full size body shop store in the international terminal. And I would go, when I was traveling somewhere, I would go, I'd go through security. I would go on my little shopping trip, the body shop, buy all my stuff. I've told a friend of mine the story and she was like, can we discuss how you're traveling for work so much that you were buying your personal care products at the airport?

Tracy V. Wilson (24:30)

Yeah. But that way you don't have to pack stuff.

Holly Fry (24:32)

Yeah. It's already through security.

Tracy V. Wilson (24:35)

You could just have it. The best. The best. The best. Yeah. I mean, I listen, I'm at the airport all the time, so I'm very familiar with and comfortable with it. I am like that almost obnoxious person that will help confuse travelers.

Holly Fry (24:51)

Sure.

Tracy V. Wilson (24:51)

Where I'm like, where do you actually need to go? Because I can see on your face that you are befuddled and overwhelmed. Uh huh. Listen, have I snuck some people through the sky priority security lane when they look desperate? Yes, I have. Yes, I have. Because, you know, like, it, it can be, it can be a little dicey.

Holly Fry (25:09)

Yeah. When Patrick and I were dating one time, I dropped him off at the Atlanta airport and the security line had wound all the way through the windy path and all the way out through the atrium and all the way out farther out was the longest I'd ever seen it. And I was like, I don't love this, but I still love that airport.

Tracy V. Wilson (25:29)

It has, in my opinion, gotten better because they have multiple security checkpoints now.

Holly Fry (25:36)

Correct.

Tracy V. Wilson (25:36)

So it's not all wadding up in one place. And I just feel like they're doing a better job of flow management for the most part. If you're there at a peak time when it's busy, you're still going to wait for a bit. But also, again, I fly a lot, so I'm at a lot of airports. And I know that there are security people that can be brusque at every airport. But I also feel like in Atlanta, I have a lot of great experiences with security in Atlanta, where they've been extraordinarily nice to me, you know, super cool.

Holly Fry (26:10)

Yeah.

Tracy V. Wilson (26:10)

Have done whatever they could to make something easier. I've seen them helping other travelers that are super confused. Yeah. Yeah. Also, when those people were not getting paid and were still doing their job, they were so nice. I would have been biting every person that walked through. And they were lovely.

Holly Fry (26:31)

Yeah.

Tracy V. Wilson (26:32)

And if you thanked them, one guy I thought was gonna cry. Cause he just was like, clearly so overwhelmed and stressed.

Holly Fry (26:38)

Yeah. Anyway, when I moved to Massachusetts, I did so via the Atlanta airport. And I had to go through airport security with two laptops and a cat and my rollaboard. And because of how everything was packed, I had to take both laptops out of the rollerboard. And then when you are traveling with an animal, you have to take the animal out and you have to walk through the thing. So I'm walking with this cat and two things happened. One is the random other passenger corralled all of my stuff for me while I was being swabbed for explosive residue on my cat. And then also there was another TSA agent beyond the one who was like, I'm holding my cat and like getting my hands swabbed for explosive residue. And this other TSA agent was like,

Tracy V. Wilson (27:28)

please let that woman go.

Holly Fry (27:30)

That cat is terrified. And I think had I been at a different airport, I would have had a way harder time. Yeah.

Tracy V. Wilson (27:38)

My understanding, and I haven't tested this and I haven't double checked it, but I saw someone talking about it recently that if you are traveling with a pet in Atlanta and possibly other airports, you can say, I have a pet. Can we do a private screening room?

Holly Fry (27:53)

Oh, nice.

Tracy V. Wilson (27:54)

This was also in that way.

Holly Fry (27:55)

Yeah.

Tracy V. Wilson (27:56)

Right, right.

Holly Fry (27:57)

This was in 2014.

Tracy V. Wilson (27:58)

This was years before. This would have been an option where they will take you to a different room that is closed off so you don't have to worry about how nice. My cat freaked out and jumped out of my arms and now I don't know where it is in the airport.

Holly Fry (28:08)

They might have instituted that after some pets got lost in Atlanta.

Tracy V. Wilson (28:12)

Right. So I know there are some options like that. You just have to talk to a security supervisor usually and ask nice. But yeah, there. I love the Atlanta airport. If you're going to the Atlanta airport and you want to know where the best places to eat are, man, hit me up. I know them all. Cat Cora's got a great, great restaurant there on the A term on the A concourse. Some good shrimp and grits and a great cocktail program. Love it. In any case, listen, I love my city. I love Atlanta.

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Tracy V. Wilson (29:20)

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Tracy V. Wilson (29:39)

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Holly Fry (31:36)

we talked about Elizabeth Bulheim and Chemistry this week. Yes. I enjoy finding random name mentions in books and going and figuring out if that was a real person if I'm reading a work of fiction. Yeah, it happens in nonfiction too, obviously. Like, I'll be reading a book about something and a random historical person will be named as having been connected somehow. There were other folks in these last couple of books in the Edinburgh Knights series that I noted as potential topics who were just mentioned as Syd mentions at one point in the book. We may come to those at some point later. Elizabeth Fulham, though, I found her fascinating. Yeah. Even though we know basically nothing.

Tracy V. Wilson (32:24)

Yeah. I have so many questions.

Holly Fry (32:27)

Yeah. Tell me some of your questions.

Tracy V. Wilson (32:29)

Did any of this, I mean. Cause you know, I'm a textile girly.

Holly Fry (32:33)

Yeah.

Tracy V. Wilson (32:34)

And I dye a lot of my own fabric because I like customized stuff. Did she use any of it for anything?

Holly Fry (32:40)

Yeah, I don't know. So I.

Tracy V. Wilson (32:42)

Where are the clothes made of the purple fabric with gold flecks in it? Where are they?

Holly Fry (32:47)

Yeah, so I read the whole her preface, her introduction, and then I sort of read parts of the experimental sections because it is a fairly long book and it reached a point where I was like reading every single one of these experiments is not going to add more to the episode. Yeah. So it's possible that she talked about using fabric for something at some point and that I just didn't read it in the parts of the book that

Tracy V. Wilson (33:14)

I read because it's also very interesting to me that she was working mostly with silk because silk is. Yeah, this sounds a little counterintuitive for people that have not worked with it. Silk is a little easier to dye than most other fabrics because it just like slurps up pigment really fast. So it's interesting that she was working mostly with that. And I would be curious if there were any like, if she ever did a comparison of like. I did the exact same thing with a linen and with a silk and here. Because I mean, if you do the same dye bath with those Two fabrics, they're gonna look quite different.

Holly Fry (33:52)

Right.

Tracy V. Wilson (33:53)

Even if you have, like, you know, a really incredible high quality pigment. So that's all fascinating to me. I also couldn't help but think the whole time that if she lived today, she would feel like a kid in a candy store. Because, like, you can go to your local craft store and they're just aisles of dyeing options. You can get fabric dye in the grocery store, for heaven's sakes. There are entire online forums of people just sharing tips about dye, how to use dye, and how to achieve a particular dye. If you're trying to replicate one specific garment and people have formulas that they share, and I'm like, she would. She would cry with joy.

Holly Fry (34:37)

She would cry with joy.

Tracy V. Wilson (34:40)

Or she would be like, you're all doing it wrong. You lazy, lazy people. Other people did all the work. I don't know.

Holly Fry (34:46)

I also think she really would have enjoyed, like, today's world of science communication that's really accessible to the general public. Yeah, like. Like we said, we don't really know if she went to any of the public lectures. You didn't have to be enrolled as a stud. She may have. She may not have. Those sorts of things definitely would have been less accessible for women, even if they were open to the public at the time. But if she were living today in a world where you can go to YouTube and there are a ton of different people, like, explaining things or showing, you know, showing their process for doing an experiment or for dyeing something or for doing a craft, like, all of that stuff. There's just a much broader world of information access that, you know, as long as she had access to a computer and an Internet connection, she would be able to get to.

Tracy V. Wilson (35:44)

Yeah.

Holly Fry (35:45)

Which I think she would have been very into.

Tracy V. Wilson (35:47)

Imagine how wowed she would be. Just studying the ways different cultures have used dye and pigment on textiles. You know, like, techniques like Batik would just blow her mind. Like, no, we're gonna put a wax resist on this first, and then we're gonna do that whole process you've been working on. Like, I just think she would be wowed by it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Holly Fry (36:14)

I wonder what she was like as a person. I also wonder what her relationship with her husband was like, because there's that part in the preface that makes it sound like when she was like, I have this idea that he was dismissive. Was he dismissive because he was underestimating her? Was he dismissive because of what he had learned about chemistry that just made him think it wouldn't work. Like, which. What exactly was. Like, how much was he encouraging her and how much was he more tolerating her?

Tracy V. Wilson (36:48)

Don't really know. Right. Or did he just lack the imagination to envision what she was talking about?

Holly Fry (36:53)

Yeah.

Tracy V. Wilson (36:54)

Which is not. That sounds like a criticism of him, but, like, that's a thing that people come up against all the time, and they're like, I have an idea. And it's just so unique that people cannot. Cannot really perceive or see or imagine what that would look like. So they're like, I don't think so. I don't think that's possible.

Holly Fry (37:12)

Yeah. I imagine that her maps with gold cities and silver rivers must have been really beautiful. Yeah.

Tracy V. Wilson (37:22)

Yeah. She would put those maps on a fabric and then use that fabric for a gown.

Holly Fry (37:29)

I love it. I love it.

Tracy V. Wilson (37:32)

Like, I literally. My brain just keeps clicking through all the things that she would be wowed by, like, textile medium that you can mix with paint so that you can paint directly on fabric. And it won't get crispy. It will still have the flow of fabric that would blow her mind. No, you can just use gold paint, babe. It's easy. You don't have to do any chemical processing.

Holly Fry (37:58)

Yeah, yeah. One of the things I was kind of amused by and also annoyed by was the review of her book in the Gentleman's Magazine because of its being like, wow, we really thought this must be a disguised feminist screed, clearly written by Mary Wollstonecraft or somebody. And wow, it turns out to be about science. And I was like, did somebody send you a copy of the book that didn't have the preface in it? Because some of her preface, I feel like, would annoy whoever wrote this review.

Tracy V. Wilson (38:34)

Right. Yeah. I don't know.

Holly Fry (38:37)

Or did you just skip over the preface and go, right.

Tracy V. Wilson (38:40)

People do.

Holly Fry (38:41)

Some people do. Do that. Yeah.

Tracy V. Wilson (38:43)

How many prefaces have we read on the show that start out with some variation of the phrase? No one reads prefaces. But it's important to me to say this. I mean, I can think of several. So, yeah.

Holly Fry (38:58)

I'm also thinking about the acknowledgments at the end of books where it seems like the author is just taking for granted that nobody's gonna read that part.

Tracy V. Wilson (39:06)

Yeah.

Holly Fry (39:07)

Yeah. Anyway, I am very curious if in some, you know, church, parish record somewhere, we know more about her or some very local source of information, if there's more details that we could find. I think a lot of other people that we have been talking about on the show before from, you know, somewhere in the British and Irish Isles. The fact that we don't that there wasn't a civil registration when they were living was not as big of a deal because they were a more prominent person and they had families that were keeping up with that information or other people writing about them shortly after or during their lives that like recorded a lot of that information. We just don't have that for her and so she is a person with basically no biography for us to talk about on the show.

Tracy V. Wilson (40:03)

Oh, Elizabeth.

Holly Fry (40:05)

I love her. My next episode is not about anyone named Elizabeth.

Tracy V. Wilson (40:09)

I don't believe you.

Holly Fry (40:11)

I don't know what's happening after that. May or may not be an Elizabeth, but after that is Unearthed, so at least it will not be named Elizabeth,

Tracy V. Wilson (40:22)

though there could be an Elizabeth within it.

Holly Fry (40:25)

I would say there are good odds of someone named Elizabeth in some way coming up during Unearthed, either as a subject or a researcher. Great. Totally possible.

Tracy V. Wilson (40:36)

Great.

Holly Fry (40:37)

Totally possible.

Tracy V. Wilson (40:39)

This edition of Unearthed is all about Elizabeth the first we're only going to

Holly Fry (40:44)

have Queen Elizabeth unearthing, nothing else. So whatever's happening on your weekend, I hope it is great. If there is something that has sparked your curiosity, I hope so much that you get to indulge that curiosity over the weekend because that can bring so much joy and fulfillment into life. If you are just having to keep your head down and keep going this weekend, I hope that is going as well as possible. We will be back on Monday with something brand new and tomorrow we'll have a Saturday Classic. Stuff youf Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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I think I might just have solved a murder, Vera.

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Now we're getting somewhere.

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Holly Fry (44:13)

This is an iHeart podcast.

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