Behind the Scenes Minis: Estevan and Fury

Summary

Stuff You Missed in History Class – Behind the Scenes Minis: Estevan and Fury

Release Date: August 22, 2025
Hosts: Tracy B. Wilson and Holly Frey
Podcast by: iHeartPodcasts

---

Episode Overview

This episode of "Behind the Scenes Minis" features Tracy and Holly reflecting on the week's main stories from Stuff You Missed in History Class: the life of Estevan (Esteban/Estebanico)—the Moroccan-born explorer and survivor of the Spanish Narváez expedition—and the notorious Buck v. Bell Supreme Court case. The hosts discuss the historical context, racial constructs, slavery, challenging biography sources, eugenics, the failures of justice, and contemporary echoes of social injustice.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Estevan (Estebanico/Estevan) – Context and Historical Significance

• Topic: Estevan's role in the failed Spanish expeditions in Florida and the Gulf coast, and his unique position as an African guide and survivor (02:22-04:04)
• Estevan had long been on Tracy’s research list, especially in connection to Morocco.
• Compared to Sidi Mubarak Bombay, both men’s skills were essential for European survival in unfamiliar lands.

Quote:

"In both cases, like European folks really depending on their skill and knowledge to be able to survive in an environment that they were not used to."
— Tracy (02:47)

Racial Identity in Context

• Topic: Dissecting retrospective labels ("first African American") and European concepts of race in the 16th century (03:44-07:11)
• During Estevan’s time, the idea of “white” or “African American” as understood today simply did not exist.
• Europeans most often differentiated people as “Christian” vs. “non-Christian,” which shaped who could be enslaved.

Quote:

"There wasn’t really an idea of white at that time... the folks that might be grouped together today as white were more described as Christian."
— Tracy (04:05)

Social Construction of Race

• Topic: The evolution from religious to racial categories as Europeans formalized theories of race (05:49-06:09)
• Blackness became generalized for Africans; religion shifted to race as the central method of categorizing people.

"These are both socially constructed things. They do not have any basis in biology or anything like that."
— Tracy (05:44)

Notable Moment:

"Their basis is in generational sun exposure. Like, I always... When I boil it down to that, it's so absurd."
— Holly (05:49–06:01 – laughter and critique of racial absurdity)

2. Estevan’s Status: Slave, Guide, Survivor

• Topic: The ambiguity of Estevan’s status and flawed historical arguments about his freedom (07:46-10:06)
• Some sources claim his necessity in the group disproved his enslaved status, but the hosts strongly dispute this.

Quote:

"You cannot say he wasn't like their slave because he had their lives in his hands. A lot of enslaved people had white people's lives in their hands."
— Tracy (09:28)

3. Representation and Source Material

• Topic: The challenges of representing Estevan—potential for a “tropey” film, and reviewing accessible versus academic biographies (10:06-12:43)
• Tracy praises Dennis Herrick’s "Esteban" (2018, University of New Mexico Press) as more readable and context-rich compared to typical academic biographies.

"This one, I felt like, did a really good job of setting some context that will make parts of it more understandable for a general audience."
— Tracy (11:30)

---

4. Buck v. Bell & The Legacy of Eugenics

• Topic: Further reflections on the week’s second major subject: forced sterilization and the Supreme Court’s failures (16:44-29:48)
• Tracy and Holly discuss the infamous "three generations of imbeciles is enough" quote, the railroading of Carrie Buck’s legal defense, and the frequent failures of the U.S. Supreme Court to protect marginalized citizens.

Quote:

"I did not realize that was gonna be the case... in which the attorney that was appointed to represent Carrie Buck was really gonna be working for the other side for all practical purposes."
— Tracy (18:09)

Rage and Double Standards

• Holly vents frustration at the lack of accountability for men in eugenics-era cases and contemporary medical double standards for sterilization and gender-affirming care (19:18-23:15).

"There sure is a lot of discussion about what is appropriate for her and no discussion at all about teaching men not to take advantage of women... makes my blood boil."
— Holly (19:26)

• Tracy connects eugenics to current issues in trans rights and medical autonomy.

"All of this stuff is tied together. Trans rights are connected to disability rights... they have a lot of similar roots."
— Tracy (22:48)

---

5. Reparations and Remembrance

• Topic: State-level apologies, reparations, and personal connections to historical actors (27:21-28:48)
• Tracy recounts that North Carolina was first to compensate eugenics victims, led by Larry Womble, who was Tracy’s former assistant principal.

Quote:

"I was not aware until Googling around while working on this episode that North Carolina's legislation for this was largely led by a man named Larry Womble, who was my assistant principal."
— Tracy (28:13)

6. Education, Civic Memory, and Supreme Court Decisions

• Topic: Why most people only learn about Supreme Court cases that expanded rights and not those that failed or harmed (29:14-31:08)
• Supreme Court opinions are often dense and inaccessible; the short, stark, and never-overturned Buck v. Bell decision is an outlier in its brevity and injustice.

---

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Tracy, on the eugenics case:

  "I did not expect, number one, as much information about Carrie Buck as has been unearthed." (16:58)

• Holly, on medical gendered double standards:

  "Even if you do want it, you still have to get a dude's permission. What the heck, man." (20:17)

• Tracy, on connection between rights movements:

  "Trans rights are connected to disability rights. All of this. There's this, they're, they all, they have a lot of similar roots." (22:48)

• Tracy, on the effect of negative Supreme Court precedent:

  "The idea that the Supreme Court is somehow going to save us from horrific lawmakers has not worked out a lot of the time." (29:48)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Estevan and the evolution of racial concepts: 02:22-07:11
• Discussion of Estevan's ambiguous status: 07:46-10:06
• Thoughts on source quality and biographies: 10:27-12:43
• Buck v. Bell, eugenics, and injustice: 16:44-29:48
• Personal connection to legislation and reparations: 27:21-28:48
• Reflections on Supreme Court and education: 29:14-31:08

---

Tone & Style

The conversation is thoughtful, candid, and, at times, emotionally charged. Tracy and Holly blend historical analysis with personal reflection and a clear sense of justice, voicing both scholarly critique and personal frustration with recurring patterns of oppression and erasure in American history.

---

Summary for New Listeners

Listeners unfamiliar with this week’s full episodes will gain a nuanced understanding of Estevan’s ambiguous but critical role in early North American exploration, the constructed nature of race in history, and the deeply flawed Supreme Court decision in Buck v. Bell. The hosts emphasize the importance of accessible scholarship, critical examination of sources, and the enduring legacy of systemic injustice—offering both expertise and empathy throughout.

Transcript

[Tracy B. Wilson]

This is an I heart podcast.

[Holly Fry]

Listen to your elders, honey. You might know them from their viral videos, but now the old gays are pulling back the curtain with their new podcast, Silver Linings with the Old Gays, brought to you in partnership with iHeart's Ruby Studio and Veeve Healthcare. Hosts Robert, Mick, Bill, and Jesse serve their lifetime of wisdom when it comes to love, sex, community, and whatever else they've got on the gay agenda. So check out Silver Linings with the old gays on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Manny or Noah or Devin (No Such Thing hosts)]

Why are TSA rules so confusing?

[Tracy B. Wilson]

You got a hoodie on. Take it all.

[Manny or Noah or Devin (No Such Thing hosts)]

I'm Manny. I'm Noah.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

This is Devin.

[Manny or Noah or Devin (No Such Thing hosts)]

And we're best friends and journalists with a new podcast called no Such Thing, where we get to the bottom of questions like that. Why are you screaming at me? I can't expect what to do now? If the rule was the same, go off on me. I deserve it, you know? Lock him up. Listen to no Such thing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

No Such Thing.

[John Lithgow]

Hello, I'm John Lithgow.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

We choose to go to the moon.

[John Lithgow]

I want to tell you about my new fiction podcast.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

It's One Small Step for Man about.

[John Lithgow]

Buzz Aldrin, one of the true pioneers of space.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

You're a great pilot, Buzz.

[John Lithgow]

That's the story you think you know. This is the story you don't. Buzz, starring me, John Lithgow, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Will Lucas]

It's Black Business Month, and black tech green money is tapping in. I'm Will Lucas. Spotlighting black founders, investors and innovators building the future one idea at a time. Let's talk legacy tech and generational wealth.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

I had the skill and I had the talent. I didn't have the opportunity. Yeah, we all know, right? Genius is evenly distributed. Opportunity is not.

[Will Lucas]

To hear this and more on the power of black innovation and ownership, listen to Black Tech Green Money from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Holly Fry]

Welcome to Stuff youf Missed in History Class, a production of iHeartradio.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

Hello and happy Friday. I'm Tracy B. Wilson. And I'm Holly Fry. We talked this week about Estevan, and by extension also talked about some very unsuccessful Spanish efforts to explore and colonize what's now Florida and the whole coast from there into Mexico. Did not work out for them. I've had him on my list for a really long time with a question mark after it, just because I was not sure if it was ever going to happen. And then when I was looking specifically for something related to Morocco, that is where I wound up. He's got some similarities to Sidi Mbharak Bombay, who we talked about a couple or three months ago. Not exactly the same situation, but in both cases, like European folks really depending on their skill and knowledge to be able to survive in an environment that they were not used to. There are some sources that describe Esteban as the first African American, which I get wanting to say that. Yeah. But that is not an idea that existed in any way in the 16th century when he was living. So one of the things that's interesting to me is how this fits in with the progression of how people thought, how specifically European people thought about race. Because there wasn't really an idea of white at that time.

[Holly Fry]

Right.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

There was an idea of black encompassing most people who were African, and in some contexts, other people, not generally from Europe, but the folks that might be grouped together today as white were more described as Christian.

[Holly Fry]

Right.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

And when what would become sort of the. The European powers colonizing the Americas were getting started in the. In the idea of, like, not just having slaves, but, like, building a society that was rooted in slavery. Initially, it had been thought of as acceptable to enslaved people who were not Christian. So it would, you know, within the. The European Christian context, it would be acceptable to enslave Muslims or enslave African people of an indigenous African religion, or to enslave indigenous American people who were not Christian. But then there were also missionary and evangelical efforts to convert people to Christianity. So it's like you convert your enslaved population to Christianity now what. And it was through that shift that categories began to be created, separating black and white. These are both socially constructed things. They do not have any basis in biology or anything like that.

[Holly Fry]

Their basis is in generational sun exposure.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

Right.

[Holly Fry]

Like, I always. When I boil it down to that, it's so absurd.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

That it's hard not to laugh. But I also then feel guilty for laughing because what a mess we have made because of it.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

So much of a mess. I don't remember the person's name, but there is one particular person that's like, one of the earliest people to have seen started conceiving of, like, all Africans as one race, which is just not an idea that had existed before. Right. So Estevan lived at a time that, like, these categories were still being thought of and formula and formalized and adopted within European societies. And the idea of African American as that means something today, that was not even. That was so far away. He's like we said, the first non indigenous person of any race to make it as far into North America as what we know as New Mexico and Arizona. But that is not the same thing as being an African American as that term means today.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah. If you could speak one of the many languages he spoke and went back in time and tried to explain this, you would get what?

[Tracy B. Wilson]

Yeah. Stairs, blankness.

[Holly Fry]

This episode was wild to me because it's talking about like where I grew up.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

Oh, yeah.

[Holly Fry]

You know, after I was nine, I grew up on the Gulf coast and I actually just got back from Tampa Bay. So like, it was just like, is this the time travel.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

Of my map story?

[Tracy B. Wilson]

Yeah, kind of.

[Holly Fry]

Kind of, yeah.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

I also read a number of essays that were talking about whether, like how his position within this group of four changed over the course of their efforts to get back into Spanish controlled territory. And then after they got to Mexico City and how it seems like he was in a kind of gray area for a while where he maybe wasn't being seen exactly as enslaved, but also didn't seem to be free. And there was an argument in some of these essays that I found interesting but also incorrect because a lot of them were like, they couldn't have thought of him as their slave because they were relying on him for their safety and survival. And I'm just like, yeah, like the entire American south, for the entire history of slavery, you had enslaved people who were making people's food and delivering people's babies and driving their carriages, like literally doing all of the things that were required for survival. That wasn't exclusive to the American south, but like the American south became a society where that was entrenched and a lot of enslaved African people were handling everybody's very survival all the time. And even after you got out of the south and slavery was abolished, in places outside of the south, there were still people who were free black people being treated as second class citizens who were still doing all that completely critical. And I was like that just you, you cannot say he wasn't like their slave because he had, he had their lives in his hands. I'm like that a lot of enslaved people had white people's lives in their hands. Like they literally took care of their infants. Like, yeah, yeah. That doesn't make any sense. It was. I was like that. Your argument is not adding up to me. It does for sure seem like that he based on other things beyond the fact that he had their lives in his hands, that it seems like that they. He wound up in kind of a nebulous area. But, yeah, I was like, this argument is not adding up to me.

[Holly Fry]

This is one of those things where I hope. Well, I don't want to say that. I was going to say I hope no one ever makes a movie about him because I feel like it would very quickly devolve into like, super tropey.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

Feel good, like.

[Holly Fry]

But then if the right person made the movie, it would be fine. But I just think the odds would be long that it wouldn't get a little whitewashed.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

There are a couple of biographies about him. One of them, I think was written in the 60s, if I remember correctly. I did not read that one, but I did read. I think read is. I did not thoroughly read it. I did read Esteban by Dennis Herrick with reading more meaning, confirming particular details, not reading the whole thing thoroughly. And that one just came out in 2018. So it's a pretty new. And it is from the University of New Mexico Press. I generally found it to be more accessible than a lot of things that are published through university presses. Yeah. I'm not saying that university presses are inherently inaccessible, but I do read some books that have come from university presses that are more. There's like more jargon from the field of history. Right.

[Holly Fry]

They're just more academic. They're not intended for a general audience.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

That's a better word than what I was trying to say.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

And this one, I thought I felt like, did a really good job of setting some context that will make parts of it more understandable for a general audience. That a lot of times the more academic work would just skip over, kind of assuming that the audience reading it would already know this stuff.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

And that was one of the things that I was like, oh, I like that this is included. Which is something that I would not necessarily see coming from an academic press in a lot of the cases. So if people want more detail, because there is so much more detail about this whole expedition, that's one of the places you could go look for it again. That is Esteban by Dennis Herrick, which came out in 2018 from University of New Mexico Press. I tried to read a lot of stuff from a lot of different perspectives to see how, like, how our scholars who grew up in Morocco talking about him, how our indigenous anthropologists and historians talk about them talk about him. There's a lot. There's definitely more about him now. Than there was even 10 years ago. Available for folks who are interested.

[Washable Sofas Advertiser]

This Labor Day. Say goodbye to spills, stains and overpriced furniture with washablesofas.com featuring Anabe, the only machine washable sofa inside and out where designer quality meets budget friendly pricing. Sofas start at just $6.99, making it the perfect time to upgrade your space. Anibe's Pet Friendly stain resistant and interchangeable slipcovers are made with high performance fabric built for real life. You'll love the cloud like comfort of hypoallergenic high resilience foam that never needs fluffing and a durable steel frame that sticks stands the test of time with modular pieces you can rearrange anytime. It's a sofa that adapts to your life. Now through Labor Day. Get up to 60% off site [e-mail] Every order comes with a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not in love, send it back for a full refund. No return shipping, no restocking fees, every penny back. Shop [e-mail] Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Manny or Noah or Devin (No Such Thing hosts)]

Imagine that you're on an airplane and all of a sudden you hear this.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

Attention passengers. The pilot is having an emergency and we need someone, anyone to land this plane.

[Manny or Noah or Devin (No Such Thing hosts)]

Think you could do it? It turns out that nearly 50% of men think that they could land the plane with the help of air traffic control. And they're saying like, okay, pull this. Until this, pull that, turn this. It's just I can do my eyes closed. I'm Manny.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

I'm Noah, this is Devin.

[Manny or Noah or Devin (No Such Thing hosts)]

And on our new show, no such Thing, we get to the bottom of questions like these. Join us as we talk to the leading expert on overconfidence.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

Those who lack expertise lack the expertise they need to recognize that they lack expertise.

[Manny or Noah or Devin (No Such Thing hosts)]

And then as we try the whole thing out for real. Wait, what? Oh, that's the run, right? I'm looking at this thing.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

See?

[Manny or Noah or Devin (No Such Thing hosts)]

Listen to no such thing on the I Heart Rate radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

December 29, 1975. LaGuardia Airport.

[Law and Criminal Justice System Narrator]

The holiday rush. Parents hauling luggage. Kids gripping their new Christmas toys. Then at 6:33pm, everything changed.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

There's been a bombing at the TWA terminal. Apparently the explosion actually impelled metal glass. The injured were being loaded into ambulances. Just a chaotic, chaotic scene.

[Law and Criminal Justice System Narrator]

In its wake, a new kind of enemy emerged. And it was here to stay. Terrorism, law and order, criminal justice system is back in Season two, we're turning our focus to a threat. Threat that hides in plain sight that's harder to predict and even harder to stop. Listen to the new season of law and criminal justice System on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[John Lithgow]

Hello, I'm John Lithgow.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

We choose to go to the moon.

[John Lithgow]

I want to tell you about my new fiction podcast.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

That's One small step for man.

[John Lithgow]

It's about Buzz Aldrin, one of the true pioneers of space.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

You're a great pilot, Buzz. As far as I'm concerned, the best I've seen.

[John Lithgow]

That's the story you think you know. This is the story you don't predisposition.

[Washable Sofas Advertiser]

To depression, alcohol abuse, and suicide.

[John Lithgow]

We'll see Buzz try to overcome demons.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

What do you say, Buzz?

[Manny or Noah or Devin (No Such Thing hosts)]

Another beer.

[John Lithgow]

And triumph over addiction.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

Here's to you, Buzz Aldrin.

[John Lithgow]

Good luck to you and become a true hero.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

Buzz and I will proceed into the.

[John Lithgow]

Lunar module not because he conquers space, but because he conquers himself.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

Buzz, we intercepted a Soviet radio transmission.

[John Lithgow]

Starring me, John Lithgow.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

Can you put it through?

[John Lithgow]

Can you Translate on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

Columbia, you. We talked about Buck versus Bell this week.

[Holly Fry]

Oh, we sure did.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

The like that case has come up in a number of previous episodes. I. I did not have the experience I expected to find when I started researching it, because I knew. I knew the basics of the case, right? I knew that Carrie Bell had a child and that Carrie's mother had also been institutionalized, and that there was this argument that Carrie should be sterilized so she could not have any more children. And that three generation of imbeciles is enough is quoted all over the place.

[Manny or Noah or Devin (No Such Thing hosts)]

I.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

Did not expect, number one, as much information about Carrie Buck as has been unearthed. I mean, there's still big gaps in it, but largely because of the work of Paul Lombardo. Like, there's a lot more known and documented about her and her family today. I was not really expecting. Maybe I should have been, but I wasn't really expecting the story of the court case to involve everybody basically railroading it through. Like, I just. It. It did not really occur to me at the beginning that this was gonna be a story in which the attorney that was appointed to represent Carrie Buck was really gonna be working for the other side for all practical purposes like that. I was not. I did not realize that was gonna be the case. And I said already, like, literally three hours after I emailed you this outline, came all the headlines about the request to overturn Obergfell. And already we have talked earlier this year about the request. Not exactly request, but like the. The attempts to have the Supreme Court overturn the constitutional right to birthright citizenship, I'd already had in my mind, like there have been a lot of times that the Supreme Court has authored decisions that have made things worse. And I wasn't expecting in this case for that to extend to her not even really being defended. Yeah, was just not. I don't know, I was not expecting that.

[Holly Fry]

This one makes me such a rage monster. For two reasons. For many reasons. But the big two.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

Okay.

[Holly Fry]

One, there sure is a lot of discussion about what is appropriate for her and no discussion at all about teaching men not to take advantage of women.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

Right.

[Holly Fry]

Which makes my blood boil. And I want to say a lot of words that are not suitable for this podcast.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Holly Fry]

Two, while we were discussing this, I thought back to my own by choice sterilization and how when I first started raising that issue to my doctor, I think I was 29, I talked to several different doctors about it and at the time all of them wanted to talk to my husband about it. And it's like, you know what, Even if you do want it, you still have to get a dude's permission.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

What the heck, man.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

Those two things really made me irate throughout the reading of this episode.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

Yeah. On your first point, that was one of the lines of argument that her attorney could have pursued if he had wanted to because there was a lot of discussion about like, oh well, she's obviously irresponsible. She's obviously just going to have a lot more children if we don't do something about. Was never brought up that her account was that he had raped her. And that just wasn't brought into the questioning at all. I don't know of any consequence that ever happened to him in any way. And as we said, like his aunt was the person that raised Carrie Buck's baby. All of which is infuriating. And then on your second point, it is the same double standard as we see in gender affirming health care. If you want to have a breast augmentation because you are a cisgender woman who wants bigger breasts, great. Nobody is really going to challenge that. But if you are a trans woman who wants a breast augmentation, there are a bajillion hurdles and attempts to outlaw that entirely. And a bunch of absolutely blatant misinformation about what is happening with children's gender affirming care, which in the vast, vast majority of cases involves things like socially transitioning, so letting kids use the name and wear the clothing that they would prefer to wear. And hormone blockers, which we have plenty of documentation about because they are routinely prescribed to kids who are going through precocious puberty, meaning going through puberty too early. Right. Medically too early. And so like if, if a cisgender child is in precocious puberty, puberty blockers, no problem. If a trans child would like to put off the physical changes of puberty until they are older and can think about what it will mean to have a permanently life changing, physically changing surgery, suddenly puberty blockers becomes a whole big deal. And that also infuriates me. All of this stuff is tied together. Trans rights are connected to disability rights. All of this. There's this, they're, they all, they have a lot of similar roots. I am, I'm frustrated and infuriated the same way you are.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah.

[Washable Sofas Advertiser]

This Labor Day, say goodbye to spills, stains and overpriced furniture with washablesofas.com featuring Annabe, the only machine washable sofa inside and out where designer quality meets budget friendly pricing. Sofas start at just $699, making it the perfect time to upgrade your space. Anibe's pet friendly stain resistant and interchangeable slipcovers are made with high performance fabric built for real life. You'll love the cloud like comfort of hypoallergenic, high resilience foam that never needs fluffing and a durable steel frame that stands the test of time. With modular pieces you can rearrange anytime. It's a size sofa that adapts to your life. Now through Labor Day, get up to 60% off site [e-mail] Every order comes with a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not in love, send it back for a full refund. No return shipping, no restocking fees, every penny back. Shop [e-mail] Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Manny or Noah or Devin (No Such Thing hosts)]

Imagine that you're on an airplane and all of a sudden you hear this.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

Attention passengers. The pilot is having an emergency and we need someone, anyone to land this plane.

[Manny or Noah or Devin (No Such Thing hosts)]

Think you could do it? It turns out that nearly 50% of men think that they could land the plane with the help of air traffic control. And they're saying like okay, pull this until this, pull that, turn this. It's just I do my eyes closed, I'm Manny.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

I'm Noah. This is Devin.

[Manny or Noah or Devin (No Such Thing hosts)]

And on our new show, no Such Thing, we get to the bottom of questions like. Like these. Join us as we talk to the leading expert on overconfidence.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

Those who lack expertise lack the expertise they need to recognize that they lack expertise.

[Manny or Noah or Devin (No Such Thing hosts)]

And then as we try the whole thing out for real. Wait, what? Oh, that's the Runway. I'm looking at this thing.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

See?

[Manny or Noah or Devin (No Such Thing hosts)]

Listen to no Such thing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

December 29, 1975, LaGuardia Airport.

[Law and Criminal Justice System Narrator]

The holiday rush. Parents hauling luggage. Kids gripping their new Christmas toys. Then at 6:33pm, everything changed.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

There's been a bombing at the TWA terminal. Apparently the explosion actually impelled metal glass. The injured were being loaded into ambulances. Just a chaotic, chaotic scene.

[Law and Criminal Justice System Narrator]

In its wake, a new kind of enemy emerged. And it was here to stay. Terrorism, law and criminal justice system is back. In season two, we're turning our focus to a threat that hides in plain sight that's harder to predict and even, even harder to stop. Listen to the new season of law and criminal justice System on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[John Lithgow]

Hello, I'm John Lithgow.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

We choose to go to the moon.

[John Lithgow]

I want to tell you about my new fiction podcast, that's One Small Step for Man. It's about Buzz Aldrin, one of the true pioneers of space.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

You're a great pilot, Buzz. As far as I'm concerned, the best I've seen.

[John Lithgow]

That's the story you think you know. This is the story you don't predisposition.

[Washable Sofas Advertiser]

To depression, alcohol abuse and suicide.

[John Lithgow]

We'll see Buzz try to overcome demons.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

What do you say, Buzz?

[John Lithgow]

Another beer and triumph over addiction.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

Here's to you, Buzz Aldrin.

[John Lithgow]

Good luck to ya and become a true Buzz.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

And I will proceed into the lunar.

[John Lithgow]

Module not because he conquers space, but because he conquers himself.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

Buzz, we intercepted a Soviet radio transmission.

[John Lithgow]

Starring me, John Lithgow.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

Can you put it through?

[John Lithgow]

Can you Translate on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

Columbia. One of the things that I was looking up as I was was like Virginia's apology for this law. There have been some states that have passed laws to compensate people who were sterilized under their eugenics programs. One of those is North Carolina, which is where I am from. North Carolina was the first state to compensate victims of its eugenics sterilization program. I was not. I don't think I was living in North Carolina when this happened, but I was not aware until Googling around while working on this episode that North Carolina's legislation for this was largely led by a man named Larry Womble, who was my assistant principal.

[Holly Fry]

Huh.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

Total news to me. He passed away in 2020, I think. 2020. But yeah, like, he was a big part of getting that pass in North Carolina. Not all states passed such programs. I don't remember if Virginia did or not. There are limits to how much money can compensate a person for surgeries made on their bodies without their consent or in some case even knowledge. I don't know if I have anything else to say about Buck versus Bell today.

[Holly Fry]

Me either. I'm just super mad.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

I'm also super mad. I've said before, it's been a super long time on the show, but I've said before. But I think some of the Supreme Court decisions that people learn the most about in the United States in the world of like K through 12 education, are the Supreme Court decisions that made progress in making sure everyone had access and recognitions of this, of the same rights. So things like Brown versus Board.

[Holly Fry]

Right.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

Things like Loving versus Virginia, which overturned Virginia's anti miscegenation law, which was also a eugenics law because it was about protecting white racial purity. But there are many, many more Supreme Court cases that were the opposite of that, that were like, I mean, some of which we've talked about on the show before, like Plessy versus Ferguson, Dred Scott versus Sanford. The idea that the Supreme Court is somehow going to save us from horrific lawmakers has not worked out a lot of the time.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of, A lot of the way those syllabi get put together, one, A lot of times they get put into like civics classes that are very much in the rah rah. This is the best way. So of course they're not going to include anything dicey. Yeah. Also, I mean, I will say we joked about it in the show, but like, it is hard to read and parse a lot of Supreme Court opinion writing because it tends to be very long and very verbose. And so the trick is that even if somebody like, especially if you're high school age and you get curious and you go looking, you really need an assist or to find a great study guide to walk you through those. And those aren't always easy to find.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

Right. Sometimes they're also like Supreme Court opinions can be very dense with citations of all of the precedents, which can make it really hard to even get through a sentence sometimes because it feels like there's 9,000 citations in there. And if you're not familiar, you have.

[Holly Fry]

To do extra homework for each sentence.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

Yeah. If you're not familiar with what all of those citations are about, then it's can bog down really quickly. The fact that this decision was so short, we could have just read the whole thing on the show really is wild. Dramatically shorter than most. Most decisions today. And not in a way like if you look at very old laws in the United States, some of them are very short and are much, much shorter than today, where bills can go on for hundreds or thousands of pages. And it's not quite like that. It's. It's that this one was particularly unusually short and awful and never directly overturned. On that note, I hope everybody's Saturday is better than this episode was. Whatever is happening in your world, I hope it is going as well as it can go. And I hope you're able to take some time to kind of center and focus on yourself. I have found in my own life that if I am literally burying myself in every headline and every development all day long, forever, that I stop being able to cope with all of it. And so I have tried to make it a point to, at some points of the day, see what's happening in the world, but at other points in the day, try to be more focused on what I'm actually doing and what I can do to help when that's possible. We will be back with a Saturday classic tomorrow. We will have something brand new on Monday. Stuff youf Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Manny or Noah or Devin (No Such Thing hosts)]

Why are TSA rules so confusing?

[Tracy B. Wilson]

You got a hoodie on. Take it all.

[Manny or Noah or Devin (No Such Thing hosts)]

I'm Manny. I'm Noah.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

This is Devin.

[Manny or Noah or Devin (No Such Thing hosts)]

And we're best friends and journalists with a new podcast called no Such Thing, where we get to the bottom of questions like that. Why are you screaming at me? I can't expect. What to do now if the rule was the same, go off on me, I deserve it, you know, Lock him up. Listen to no Such thing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

No Such Thing.

[John Lithgow]

Hello, I'm John Lithgow.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

We choose to go to the moon.

[John Lithgow]

I want to tell you about my new fiction podcast.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

That's one small step for man about.

[John Lithgow]

Buzz Aldrin, one of the true pioneers of space.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

You're a great pilot, Buzz.

[John Lithgow]

That's the story you think you know. This is the story you don't. Buzz. Starring me, John Lithgow, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Will Lucas]

It's Black Business Month and black tech green money is tapping in. I'm Will Lucas, spotlighting black founders, investors and innovators building the future one idea at a time. Let's talk legacy tech and generational wealth.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

I had the skill and I had the talent. I didn't have the opportunity. Yeah, we all know, right? Genius is evenly distributed. Opportunity is not.

[Will Lucas]

To hear this and more on the power of black innovation and ownership, listen to black tech green money from the Black Effect podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tracy B. Wilson]

Don't let biased algorithms or degree screens or exclusive professional networks or stereotypes. Don't let anything keep you from discovering the half of the workforce who are stars workers skill through alternative routes rather than a bachelor's degree. It's time to tear the paper ceiling and see the stars beyond it. Find out how you can make stars part of your talent strategy at tearthepaperceiling. Org Brought to you by opportunity at work in the Ad Council. This is an iHeart podcast.