Behind the Scenes Minis: Math and Falsehoods

Summary

Stuff You Missed in History Class

Episode: Behind the Scenes Minis: Math and Falsehoods
Hosts: Holly Frey & Tracy V. Wilson
Release Date: September 19, 2025
Podcast Network: iHeartPodcasts

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Episode Overview

In this behind-the-scenes installment, Holly and Tracy reflect on two recent main topics:

1. The life and scientific contributions of Augustin-Jean Fresnel, focusing on the development of the Fresnel lens and the science behind it.
2. Maria Amparo Ruiz de Burton, a significant and complex figure in American history, as well as a critical look at a recent spate of misrepresentations about Smithsonian programming circulating in political and media circles.

The conversation swings from personal anecdotes and philosophical musings about work and passion to a careful, point-by-point rebuttal of misleading claims about the Smithsonian’s work, particularly regarding inclusion and representation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Augustin-Jean Fresnel: Science, Passion, and Professional Identity

(02:59 – 12:29)

• Origin of the Episode:

  • Tracy describes how the episode came to be, inspired by audience requests and her own fascination with seeing a Fresnel lens in a museum ([03:02]).
  • Tracy: “I feel like I was at one of the museums in Gloucester, Massachusetts, and saw one of the lenses and was like, that's so cool.” ([03:08])

• Fresnel’s Early Career:

  • Holly recounts how Fresnel, instead of social climbing as expected in early 19th-century French society, simply wanted to learn more science from local teachers ([04:53]).
  • Holly: “He did not care about social climbing... What he cared about was, I really love science and I want to learn more.” ([05:08])

• Scientific Community Drama:

  • Holly discusses infighting among France’s scientific community—rivalries, drama, and pettiness, likening them to “the Real Scientists of France” ([05:29]).
  • She connects this to broader cultural perceptions about “dramatic” women vs. the reality of competitive men in academic circles.

• Work vs. Passion:

  • Holly explores the tension between ‘following your passion’ and the realities of work, using Fresnel’s journey as an example—he built his professional identity through passion, not just his job ([06:50 – 09:41]).
  • Holly: “Your work should almost be the least interesting thing about you.... The second your passion becomes like your responsibility and your way that you make money, it's now a job, the fun falls off.” ([07:43])
  • Encouragement to pursue new interests and not to conflate self-worth with employment.

• Math Anxiety and Self-Worth:

  • Both hosts admit their mathematical limits—complex math terrifies Holly, while Tracy struggles more with arithmetic. They celebrate individual strengths and the diversity of skills ([11:06 – 12:29]).
  • Holly: “If ever you're having one of these moments in your life where you're like, I don't feel like a very bright person because I don't understand this... I bet Augustin Fresnel couldn't make a dress and I can. So everybody has their skill sets.” ([11:47])

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2. Maria Amparo Ruiz de Burton & Falsehoods About the Smithsonian

(16:20 – 36:11)

• Episode Inspiration:

  • Tracy explains that anger from seeing a White House website’s distorted take on Smithsonian exhibits inspired her research into Maria Amparo Ruiz de Burton ([16:20]).

• Dissecting Misinformation:

  • Tracy methodically addresses and debunks misleading claims from the White House site:

    • National Museum of African American History and Culture “work ethic” graphic: She notes that it was interpreted in the least generous way possible and was removed years ago, but the controversy persists ([17:30 – 18:34]).

    • The value of work in American society: Tracy challenges the idea that work should define our worth, connecting the topic to American labor practices and personal anecdotes ([18:04 – 19:19]).

      • Tracy: “We were living in a society where people were like, yeah, that's normal. I think that's bad, honestly.” ([19:02])

    • Latino programming and disability inclusion:

      • Tracy highlights the out-of-context critique of a two-minute educational video featuring a disabled, plus-size actress. She expresses her frustration with hostility toward inclusion ([19:20 – 20:51]).
      • Tracy: “You're mad that there's a two minute video at the website that has a disabled plus size actress”? ([20:42])
      • Holly: “How dare people exist and talk about their existence.” ([20:46])

    • Art, Power, and Identity:

      • The hosts push back on the criticism of exhibits encouraging dialogue about power and identity, noting it’s a basic function of art and museums ([21:15 – 22:06]).
      • Tracy: “If you think the purpose of art is to stand and look at something on a wall and go ‘pretty’, then maybe it is objectionable to you.” ([21:56])

    • Benjamin Franklin and Slavery:

      • Tracy dispels claims that Franklin exhibits “focus almost solely on slavery,” emphasizing the need for context and recognition of the support systems—enslaved people, family members—that enabled historical achievements ([22:06 – 24:02]).

• The Statue of Liberty with Tomatoes:

  • Tracy discusses perhaps the most egregious example of distortion: criticism of a museum artifact—a papier-mâché Statue of Liberty holding tomatoes, created by the Coalition of Immokalee Workers ([27:55 – 30:58]).
    • She explains its origin as a symbol for migrant tomato-pickers' fight for fairness, and how its presence in the Smithsonian is entirely appropriate as a record of American labor activism.
    • Tracy: “The bosses were refusing them a penny per bucket of tomatoes.” ([29:34])
    • “If you have a problem with this, I am angry at you personally.” ([30:38])

• Art as Political Target:

  • Both hosts express outrage at the current political targeting of inclusive museum exhibits and the propagation of misinformation by prominent actors ([30:58]).

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3. History’s Interconnections & Personal Reflections

(31:56 – 35:47)

• Maria’s Life and Community:

  • Holly notes Maria’s connection to other historical women like Harriet Williams Russell Strong, admiring the unexpected webs of influence in history ([32:12]).
  • Holly: "The spider web of history stories that all kind of come together to make the fabric of our story as humans. I was like, oh, I see the tendrils reaching each other." ([32:36])
  • Holly and Tracy consider the complexities of Maria’s relationships, notably her friendship with Verena Davis (Jefferson Davis’s wife) and with Mary Todd Lincoln ([33:08 – 34:18]).
    • Tracy admits her limited Spanish prevented deeper research into Maria’s correspondence; Holly voices discomfort with socializing with those with fundamentally differing human rights beliefs ([34:30 – 34:50]).

• Maria's Social Circle and Complexity:

  • Discussion of the complicated landscape of abolitionists, racism, and privilege within Maria’s environment ([34:52 – 35:47]).
  • Tracy: “She was operating within her own prejudices as well. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I find her very interesting.”

• End-of-Episode Well Wishes:

  • Tracy wishes listeners a restful weekend: “Whatever is happening for you this weekend, I hope it is great… If you’re able to take some time to… recover from my lengthy diatribes in today's behind the scenes, we’ll be back with a Saturday classic tomorrow and something brand new on Monday.” ([35:53 – 36:13])

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “He did not care about social climbing... What he cared about was, I really love science and I want to learn more.”
  – Holly ([05:08])

• “The panel, like Arago and Biot had fallen out and then Poisson had become Arago's enemy because they had both been up for the same academic appointment. And... just drama. So, like, it's again, one of those things where... the proclivity... to characterize women as being, you know, kind of dramatic... there's so many historical and contemporary, frankly, examples of that not being the case at all.”
  – Holly ([05:29])

• “Your work should almost be the least interesting thing about you... The second your passion becomes like your responsibility... it's now a job, the fun falls off.”
  – Holly ([07:43])

• “If ever you're having one of these moments in your life where you're like, I don't feel like a very bright person because I don't understand this... I bet Augustin Fresnel couldn't make a dress and I can. So everybody has their skill sets.”
  – Holly ([11:47])

• “The incredibly reductive, least generous possible read on that kind of stuff is what wound up going viral, of course.”
  – Tracy ([17:31])

• “We were living in a society where people were like, yeah, that's normal. I think that's bad, honestly.”
  – Tracy ([19:02])

• “You're mad that there's a two minute video at the website that has a disabled plus size actress?”
  – Tracy ([20:42])

• “If you think the purpose of art is to stand and look at something on a wall and go ‘pretty’, then maybe it is objectionable to you.”
  – Tracy ([21:56])

• “The bosses were refusing them a penny per bucket of tomatoes.”
  – Tracy ([29:34])

• “If you have a problem with this, I am angry at you personally.”
  – Tracy ([30:38])

• “The spider web of history stories that all kind of come together to make the fabric of our story as humans...”
  – Holly ([32:36])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Fresnel’s social quirks and love of science: 03:42 – 05:25
• Science drama and gender stereotypes: 05:29 – 06:50
• Work, passion, and identity: 06:50 – 09:41
• Math anxiety and individual skills: 11:06 – 12:29
• False claims about Smithsonian; in-depth rebuttal: 16:20 – 30:58
• Statue of Liberty with tomatoes; symbolism, context, and outrage: 27:55 – 30:58
• Interconnections in women's history: 32:12 – 33:40
• Maria’s correspondence and complexity: 33:56 – 35:47

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Tone and Style

The hosts maintain an engaging, conversational, and often humorous tone, balancing thoughtful critique with moments of warmth and self-deprecation. Their candor and passion for both history and social equity shine throughout, making complex and sometimes frustrating topics relatable and accessible to listeners.

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This summary encapsulates the essential points, thoughtful critiques, and delightful tangents of this episode—offering context, insight, and heart even for listeners who missed the original.

Transcript

[Tracy V. Wilson]

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[Holly Fry]

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[Tracy V. Wilson]

And I'm Tracy V. Wilson.

[Holly Fry]

We talked about Augustin Jean Fresnel this week.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

We did. I'm glad you put this on your list, because someone asked us at some point in the past for an episode on the Fresnel lens. And then I was at. I feel like I was at one of the museums in Gloucester, Massachusetts, and saw one of the lenses and was like, that's so cool. Someone asked us for an episode on this. Maybe I will put that on the list. And when I started looking into maybe doing an episode, I was so focused on the lenses that I was like, I don't think I can make this work. But you made it work.

[Holly Fry]

Barely. Because, like, I'm on the struggle bus with the science of this one. So hopefully, whoever wanted this episode. I don't recall that email. Is not like, you. You messed it all up. You made a mess. Fingers crossed. So one of the things that is very cute and interesting about Fernell is that when he started his career as a civil engineer, and I think this story, it's from a biography I read on him, and it was when he was not fully completed. He was, like, in his student but working the job phase that he got posted to one of these towns where he was working. And the expectation would be, as someone is starting their professional career, for them to seek out, you know, the town's leadership, society, people, et cetera, as, like, just a matter of course in how you would establish yourself in French society at the time. But he apparently didn't do any of this.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

He instead got to be friends with one of the teachers in town and just wanted him to, like, teach him about more science stuff. And it was like, okay, I just want to be a goofball and learn.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

Nerdy thing. I. I found that so charming. Like, he did not care about social climbing.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

Even if it was going to help his career. What he cared about was, I really love science and I want to learn more. Who knows what? I don't know. That's very, very charming.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Let me go find that person.

[Holly Fry]

I love them so much. I love that so much.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

There was also, and I didn't get into all of it because, one, it would have taken us down a side street that I didn't think was really that interesting. And two, I honestly had a hard time parsing it all out. That council of scientists that were reviewing his work, like Arago that Arago was on, there was so much infighting among those men, like that it was, it was like the real scientists of France. It was, they just wanted to argue about everything and like, they would be best friends for a little while, then they would have a falling out and then they would, you know, work on a project together and then get in an argument over who did more work. And just like the, the panel, like Arago and Biot had fallen out and then Poisson had become Arago's enemy because they had both been up for the same academic appointment and Poisson got it and Arigo didn't, even though he was the more deserving on paper. And like, they just drama. So, like, it's again, one of those things where I listen, I watch Real Housewives and I will judge no one for watching garbage television. But the proclivity. Many people have to characterize women as being, you know, kind of dramatic and argumentative with their friends. And for there to be like, frenemy issues is usually characterized as something that women engage in. Whereas you'll see all the time on social media everywhere where it's like, men are just like, yeah, whatever, and they just keep going. And it's like there's so many historical and contemporary, frankly, examples of that not being the case at all. And this was one because. Woo, woo. The cat fights in this group. Here is my other personal takeaway from this, which I love. Okay? And I want to preface this by saying this is not me in any way voicing my displeasure at my own work, but I have always felt very strongly, and I know people will disagree, that like, your work should almost be the least interesting thing about you. You know what I mean? Like, that whole thing of like, follow your passion and it will never be work for a lot of people. That is baloney. Because the second your passion becomes like your responsibility and your way that you make money, it's now it's a job, the fun falls off. But I love that Frenell had a whole career that he was doing in civil engineering, but he got famous for his passion. And that makes me very happy. Yeah, because you can always. You're never locked into the one thing that you do to make a living. Right. You can be. And if you love your job, that's awesome, that's amazing and cool. But like, I know a lot of people who spend a lot of time saying things like, I wish I were doing something that is not my job, and I'm always that friend. That's. It's not too Late, you go back to school, get your Egyptology degree, do the thing or the thing. And I know that there is also the fact that I do not understand because I am not a parent. Like, if you have a family, they're just Extra.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Holly Fry]

Extra. I don't want to say it in a way that sounds like, you know, I'm. I'm denigrating kids or families, but there are extra responsibilities that are a drag on your time and energy that would make it harder to do extra stuff, extra projects. Yeah, but I just. You. You can do things that are not. It's kind of like what I always tell people that want to get into podcasting, that only want to pitch shows to networks. And I'm like, why? Because you have all the technology in your pocket. If you just want to start a podcast today, you could do it. And I. I think people think they will magically get, like, a big paycheck if they sign a deal with a network. And that's not really always the case. And I'm like, but if you just want an easier job, there are probably others that are actually easier.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

And that's grabbling on the front end. Right. Especially I. You know, anyway, there's. I could have a hold discussion about podcasting, but my point being, you can. You don't have to ask permission to do the projects that you want to do. I know some things require more overhead and resources than maybe the average person has, but I also just feel like if you can figure out a way to engage with the thing that you love, you might be more fulfilled. And for me, I mean, I. I care about the things we talk about, and I enjoy getting to learn things all the time and share things all the time. But I also, I. I always caution people about your job is not your identity, because unless you work for yourself, it can always change on a dime, and then it's very harrowing. So, anyway, yeah, anyway, that's Holly's life lessons that you may or may not want to discard. But anyway, August Fresnel, smarter than I can really comprehend. Like, the whole idea of measuring waves of light and making mathematical equations around them not only is inscrutable to me, but it terrifies me. Like, I'm literally stricken with, like, oh, I think my tummy hurts.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Like, I don't.

[Holly Fry]

I don't mean to sound like a math is hard person, but for me, mathematics is a challenge at that level when you are trying to make sense of things that are hard to easily see visually. Like, you can make a chart of what it is. You can make a drawing of how a light wave works. But I still am like, yeah, for.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Me, arithmetic is the bigger challenge.

[Holly Fry]

See, the arithmetic part, I'm actually usually okay with the actual, like, doing of the sums and calculations, but coming up with the equations is the part that for me, I'm like, no, thank you. But then I remind myself, if ever you're having one of these moments in your life where you're like, I don't feel like a very bright person because I don't understand this. My thing that I always tell myself is, well, I bet August Nfronel couldn't make a dress and I can. So everybody has their skill sets.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

And you can learn most things if you really, like, focus your energies on it. But I know that I will never want to expend the level of energy and focus to learn these kinds of mathematics that it would take. So I'm just gonna sit in awe of the people for whom they come naturally or for whom they have learned how to do them. And then I'll go make a dress.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, do that.

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[Tracy V. Wilson]

This week we talked about Maria and Para Ruiz de Burton, who I find very interesting. Most of what I have to talk about in the behind the scenes though, is not about her. It is about the thing that inspired the whole episode, which was the thing from the White House website that alleges that President Trump is right about the Smithsonian by using a bunch of out of context and distorted and sometimes just frankly false stuff. The first thing on there we said in the episode is this. It was like an image from a portal that was called Talking about Race that was at the National Museum of African American History and Culture. And so I want to start by saying I do understand why there were people that found this objectionable and there were people that found it objectionable coming from multiple directions because this was a graphic that was about like things that are part of what we think of as like the dominant white culture in the United States.

[Holly Fry]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And it had things on it like, like what was a good example? It had things on it. Like there were things about it that were related to like, work ethic. And so the incredibly reductive, least generous possible read on that kind of stuff is what wound up going viral, of course. And so people interpret it, interpreted it as saying, like the Smithsonian is saying that black people don't have a work ethic. Well, that's not what it was saying at all.

[Holly Fry]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And also, like, I can see how the knee jerk response to that from multiple different angles could be like, that is upsetting. But also I think about the fact that like, we live in a society where so much about a person's value is connected to their work and how much they work. And like, it's kind of a crappy way to live.

[Holly Fry]

Honestly, this ties into our recent discussion where I went on a soapbox about how your job should not be your identity.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. As I was thinking about this, I was thinking about how at the beginning of my career I had a series of jobs in North Carolina, not a great state for worker protection. In fact, I think it has been ranked last for worker protection. But I had a series of jobs where in your first year of work you accrued five days of vacation, but you were not allowed to take any of that vacation until you had worked there for a year.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah, that's rough.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Which is stingy. And because these jobs were terrible, I changed jobs after about a year, like three different times, which kind of meant that like I, I went three years with no kind of time off.

[Holly Fry]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And you know, we were living in a society where people were like, yeah, that's normal. I think that's bad, honestly. So thing number one that was on this like White House article number one. I, I can, I understand some of the criticism. It was also at the time framed in like a very reductive and out of context kind of way and again, taken down five years ago and is still the thing that people trot out to say, this is why I think the Smithsonian is bad. Also, some of the stuff that is in this list, I'm just going to read a quote. The National Museum of the American Latino features programming highlighting. And then a scare quote starts. Animated Latinos and Latinas with disabilities. That's actually a quote from the museum website with content from a disabled plus size actress and an ambulatory wheelchair user who educates on their identity. Being Latinx or Latinx, people pronounce that two different ways. LGBTQ plus and disabled. This is referencing A literally two minute long video with an audio description of some of the visual elements so that it is accessible to blind people. And I'm, I'm like, what is your problem with this? You're mad that there's program, there's a, there's a two minute video.

[Holly Fry]

Yep.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

At the website that has a disabled plus size actress.

[Holly Fry]

Like, because how dare, how dare people exist and talk about their existence.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Ambulatory wheelchair users also exist and face a layer of like hostility in public. That is infuriating. Hey everybody. If you see a person who is using a wheelchair and they get out of the wheelchair for some reason, this is a normal thing that can happen. Mind your business.

[Holly Fry]

It doesn't mean they don't need the wheelchair.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Correct. The next thing I wrote down on this list. The Museum of American Art uses American sculpture to invite dialogue and reflection on notions of power and identity. Who cares? What do you think art is for? Whoever or whatever wrote this article?

[Holly Fry]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right. This is, I mean my spouse thinks that a large language model wrote this and that that would explain the garbled sentence that inspired the episode.

[Holly Fry]

That seems fair. I also though could see people who don't like art writing that, who don't understand what art is.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

If you think the purpose of art is to stand and look at something on a wall and go pretty, then maybe it is objectionable to you or.

[Holly Fry]

To validate what you already think you know.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

That's not art. Invite dialogue. Fine. Reflection on notions of power and identity. Fine. It also says the American History Museum's exhibit about Benjamin Franklin focuses almost solely on slavery, directing visitors to learn more about his electrical experience experiments in the enslaved people of his household, noting his scientific accomplishments were enabled by the social and economic system he worked within. The statement that this exhibit about Benjamin Franklin at the American History Museum focuses almost solely on slavery is patently untrue. Also, it's important that we recognize how many people's discoveries and accomplishments were facilitated by the enslaved people who were enslaved to their households, family members, including a lot of times wives, daughters, sisters who were doing a lot of the behind the scenes work. If you have a problem with this, this is your problem, not the Smithsonian's.

[Holly Fry]

Well, and the thing is too, I think even if it's not a direct part of someone's work that they got credit for, when you think about how much of so many people that we have as a country long revered as important and great thinkers, lawmakers, et cetera, how much of their day to day life was just easier and enabled them to think about those things, invent things, et cetera. Because other people were handling just the basics of their lives right, like making sure they were fed, that they had a clean place to sleep and that they like that is also part of that contribution that enabled those achievements. That is not necessarily a direct collaboration on any of it, but is still a very important part of it happening. Yeah, that just nobody gets acknowledged.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right?

[Holly Fry]

Correct.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

All of it.

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[Holly Fry]

Listen to your elders, honey. You might know them from their viral videos, but now the old gays pull back the curtain on their brand new podcast, Silver Linings with the Old Gays, brought to you in partnership with iHeart's Ruby Studio and Veeve Healthcare. With over 300 years of experience between them, hosts Robert, Mick, Bill and Jesse serve four lifetimes of wisdom when it comes to love, sex, community and whatever else they've got on the gay agenda. Listen in to these fabulous friends swap stories exploring how queer life has evolved over the decades and the silver linings they've collected along the way. Each episode dives into hot topics, from safe sex and online dating to untangling Gen Z lingo, as well as insights on how music, art and fashion show up in queer culture. So check out Silver Linings, a show about how pride ages like fine wine. Available on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. This episode brought to you by T. Rowe Price. It's a quickly changing world, and when it comes to investing, every day brings new questions. The way to truly confident investing? Well, that road is paved with curiosity. That's why at T. Rowe Price, they're relentlessly curious. They don't settle for fast answers, especially when it comes to your retirement. Because yesterday's answers may not be the ones you need today to secure a successful retirement tomorrow. So how much is enough? What if you don't want to stop working or even switch gears and take on Chapter two? These questions just scratch the surface. The possibilities and the unexpected of what your future could hold are endless. Find out more on their podcast Confident Conversations on Retirement, where they dig deep with questions that will get you to the answers you're looking for so you can feel confident investing in your future. T. Rowe Price Confident Conversations on Retirement Podcast. Find it on your favorite podcast platform or visit t rowprice.com podcast.

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[Tracy V. Wilson]

So again, we're not. We're not going to talk about every single thing on this list. There's so much stuff that's in it that is just like really distorted or out of context or cherry picked or framed in a weird way. Or the link goes back to the American Enterprise Institute and not the Smithsonian so you cannot see for yourself what is exactly it's referencing. But here is the thing that infuriated me the most in the moment that I was looking at it. Here's what this the White House website says an American History Museum exhibit features a depiction of the Statue of Liberty quote, holding a tomato in her right hand instead of a torch and a basket of tomatoes in her left hand instead of a tablet. It that is all that the sentence says. I feel like this sentence was selected to make uninformed people think that this is a depiction of the Statue of Liberty. Who is about to throw a tomato at America?

[Holly Fry]

Maybe they're scared of lycopene.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Oh my God. Maybe tomatoes are too acidic for their tummies in their post 50 age. Maybe this this depiction of a Statue of Liberty is also the lead image from this Federalist article that was a source of a lot of these White House complaints about the Smithsonian. And this is the immokalee Statue of Liberty. It was made by the Coalition of Immokalee Workers. The Coalition of Immokalee Workers started out as a coalition of tomato workers in immokalee florid tomato workers are in fields in grueling conditions picking the tomatoes and growing the tomatoes and caring for the plants like they're literally feeding us. They were going On a march for more than 200 miles to try to get better working conditions and a penny more per bucket of tomatoes. A penny. The bosses were refusing them a penny per bucket of tomatoes. Raised penny. They made a representation of the Statue of Liberty with brown skin as many of them have holding tomatoes, and took it on a march for 200 miles to advocate for themselves. And the White House website has pulled this out of context to make it look like a different thing instead of what is fundamentally an American story. Workers in the fields trying to get a better life for themselves with a penny more for per a bucket of tomatoes. If you have a problem with this, I am angry at you personally. Right.

[Holly Fry]

And I think it's important to note this isn't a thing that was made as a piece of statement artwork. It is paper mache.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right.

[Holly Fry]

It's a piece that, as you said, was part of a march that the Smithsonian then acquired as being culturally important in capturing this moment in our history.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. Yeah. It is the kind of thing that should be in the American History Museum. This whole article, we talked about scare quotes at the introduction of the episode. This whole article, I'm putting article in scare quotes. This is a bulleted list that I am uncertain about the prominence of it. I hated it. I hate everything that's going on with the federal government targeting the Smithsonian and making distorted, twisted, untrue arguments about what the museum is doing. And the fact that they were like, let's take this thing that was related to workers trying to get a penny more per bucket of potato. Of tomatoes. I said potatoes. Tomatoes is what it was, obviously. And try to make this, like, distort it. To make a political point of rooted in things that are untrue infuriated me. The whole list was infuriating.

[Holly Fry]

Anyway, to make things laughy. Okay. Not that we need to, but this isn't the laughy part, but when the point in Maria's story where her husband dies and she goes back to decide that she's gonna try to run the ranch.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right.

[Holly Fry]

It also made me think of another woman we've talked about in California history who kind of, like, ended up becoming a captain of industry, which was Harriet Williams. Russell Strong.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Oh, yeah. Which also has connections to the stuff that you mentioned. Yeah, correct.

[Holly Fry]

And it was just kind of like the spider web of history stories that all kind of come together to make the fabric of our story as humans. I was like, oh, I see the tendrils reaching each other.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

And then when you mentioned that she knew Mary Todd Lincoln, I started Laughing, which I don't think was edited into the thing, but only because I have been thinking about the play O Mary.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Oh, sure, yeah.

[Holly Fry]

Which I was hoping to see when Jinkx Monsoon was in it and not working out. And hopefully I will get up there for one of the other Marys. But, yeah, just. Yeah, just thank goodness for artists is what I have to say.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. I'm also very curious about her friendship with Verena Davis. Jefferson Davis, wife.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederacy. As I understand it from my limited knowledge, Verena was less. Like, Jefferson Davis was the President of the Confederacy. The Confederacy existed because of slavery, to further the institution of slavery. That is why it was there. And as I understand it, Verena was less strident in these opinions than her husband was. But I did not, you know, I don't know tons of detail about that. But, like, I just. I'm very curious about Maria's friendship with her.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I think we do have some correspondence between the two of them still surviving today. There is a. There's a collection of Maria's correspondence. Much of it is, like, the commentary on the correspondence is in English, but a lot of the correspondence is in Spanish. And my reading of Spanish is, like, preschool level, so it's not something that I could personally read.

[Holly Fry]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

But that is something that, if I had had, like, infinite time to work on the episode, I would have explored more of her relationships with both of them. Both Mary Todd Lincoln and Verena Davis.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah, that's the play. Right. Her relationship with Verena Davis, like. Yeah. I mean, I will say this from my own lens, which is not always the most magnanimous, which is that I have a hard time, like, I don't want to break bread that disagree with me fundamentally on human rights.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right.

[Holly Fry]

So I'm like.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Correct.

[Holly Fry]

Well, how does this work exactly?

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don't know. And it's. I also. I don't fully know, like, how many other women were around when they were in Virginia, you know, where Confederate prisoners of war were being held. Like, what other opportunity does she have for socializing? I did not look much farther into that. It's one of those things where, like, she for sure pointed out hypocrisies related to abolitionists and the fight to abolish slavery with white abolitionists also often being very racist. But, you know, she was operating within her own prejudices as well. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I find her very interesting. And I had not heard of her until this thing from the White House. Website made me so angry that I had to go on a tear for the podcast.

[Holly Fry]

Hooray.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Whatever is happening for you this weekend, I hope it is great. If it can't be great, I hope it's as good as possible and as easy as possible as possible. And if you're able to take some time to I just looked at how long we've been recording and I'm like, man, this is long behind the scenes.

[Holly Fry]

So I hope you're able to take.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Some time to recover. By my from my lengthy diatribes in today's behind the Scenes, we'll be back with a Saturday classic tomorrow and something brand new on Monday. Stuff youf Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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[Holly Fry]

At T Rowe Price, their experience helps them see investment potential differently. Instead of quick answers, they know that what really leads to confident investing is true curiosity. And since you're listening to this podcast, we know you value curiosity too. It's what drives them to ask the questions that really matter in our ever changing world. Like can healthcare innovations create a healthier world? And how will AI be a part of a new tomorrow? Just like you, their curiosity runs deep and with it comes the power to help you invest more confidently. Better questions, Better outcomes. Learn more@t rowprice.com Curiosity for years everyone.

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[Tracy V. Wilson]

This is an iHeart podcast.