Stuff You Missed in History Class

Behind the Scenes Minis: Much Charles, Many Dogs (December 5, 2025)

Hosts: Tracy V. Wilson & Holly Frey
Podcast: iHeartPodcasts

Episode Overview

This behind-the-scenes minisode accompanies the recent three-part series on Charles Sumner and briefly discusses Cassius Marcellus Coolidge (artist behind "Dogs Playing Poker"). Tracy and Holly reflect on the research process, explore nuanced aspects of Sumner’s life and legacy, address historiographical debates, and share personal stories and humorous tangents about animals in art and life. The episode is bookended and interspersed with lively discussions about kitsch, pets, and the enduring appeal of both highbrow and populist culture.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Reflections on Researching Charles Sumner

(02:31 – 10:48)

• Organizational Challenges:
  • Tracy describes managing mountains of research, which nearly led to a four-part series instead of three due to Sumner’s complex legacy.
  • “I was like, this is going to be four parts and we've only—we've never had like a four part episode on one person.” (03:47, Tracy)
• Unfinished Aspects:
  • The Grant-era Dominican Republic annexation was nearly a fourth episode; had to be cut for time constraints.
  • Sumner’s relevance to both past and modern justice movements is highlighted.
  • “So many of the things he was arguing were things that would be reargued again during the Civil Rights Movement. Some of it is stuff that is being reargued again now.” (05:16, Tracy)

The Caning of Charles Sumner & Its Relevance

(07:22 – 10:48)

• Violence in Politics:
  • Holly emphasizes the chilling nature of Preston Brooks’ pride in beating Sumner.
    • “That letter that Brooks wrote is the chilling wording of a psychopath in my book.” (07:35, Holly)
  • Both hosts draw connections to contemporary violence and society’s reaction to it.
    • “It feels really resonant with things that are happening right now. Like when Paul Pelosi got attacked with a hammer and there were people celebrating it and making fun of him.” (08:45, Tracy)

Historiography and Sumner’s Reputation

(04:37 – 07:12)

• The hosts discuss how early 20th-century historians, influenced by "Lost Cause" mythology, unfairly painted Sumner as radical and inflexible.
• Tracy rejects the narrative that Sumner forced the US into war by being uncompromising:
  • “How about we don’t do that? How about Charles Sumner was correct.” (06:55, Tracy)

On Charles Sumner’s Personal Life and Sexuality

(14:36 – 20:07)

• Interpretations about Relationships:
  • Tracy addresses recent writings about Sumner’s close relationships with men like Longfellow and Howe, noting some historians characterize him as “confused” about his feelings, but she finds this is too simplistic.
  • “It is absolutely true that, like, the identity of gay or queer as it exists today…was not a thing in the mid-19th century.” (15:35, Tracy)
• Differences from Modern Identity:
  • Both hosts argue that Sumner may have understood his feelings clearly, but wouldn’t have had today’s vocabulary.
    • “I don’t think he was confused at all. He knew exactly how he felt…He just used language that’s different than we would today.” (17:43, Holly)
• Limits of Modern Diagnosis:
  • They warn against retroactively diagnosing figures from the past: “It is not possible to diagnose people with things based on their written correspondence and stuff.” (23:34, Tracy)

Sumner’s Values and Backbone

(20:07 – 21:01)

• Holly and Tracy praise Sumner’s integrity, despite imperfection.
• “He sure did put himself on the line for people a lot of the time. Like, literally, physically on the line for them.” (20:24, Holly)

Sumner’s Upbringing and Personal Drive

(21:06 – 23:34)

• Holly critiques the historical norm of expecting children to support families, empathizes with Sumner’s rebellious drive to pursue education and self-betterment.
  • “That attitude always seems so cruel to me…welcome to the world, here’s the anvil that we put around your neck.” (22:08, Holly)

Fun Facts: Boston’s Sumner Tunnel

(24:06)

• Tracy clarifies that Charles Sumner is not the namesake for Boston’s Sumner Tunnel—it’s a different Sumner.

Cassius Marcellus Coolidge, “Dogs Playing Poker” & The Art of Kitsch

(28:09 – 34:49)

• Coolidge in Context:
  • Holly found it tricky to research Coolidge, but says period newspapers reveal he was beloved in New York pre-“Dogs Playing Poker.”
  • “He was involved in all the things and people literally seemed to love him.” (28:36, Holly)
• Pop Culture Icon:
  • Discusses the frequently referenced “Dogs Playing Poker” in shows like The Simpsons and Cheers.
  • Surprised to learn that some dogs in Coolidge’s works are modeled on Caravaggio figures.
• Kitsch & Democratized Art:
  • Holly defends kitsch, seeing value in art’s ability to bring joy, regardless of intellectual status.
    • “In the kingdom of highbrow intellectualism, I would be the monster…Give me dogs playing poker all day long. Give me all the weird, kitschy art.” (31:32, Holly)
  • Argues popular art reveals cultural context and fulfills needs for humor.
    • “The fact that people need to embrace something silly…probably reflects like the fact that they maybe didn’t always have hilarity and frivolity in their day to day life and they just wanted one damn picture to hang on their wall that made them smile every day.” (32:55, Holly)
• Breed Preferences:
  • Noted that Coolidge’s paintings favor big dogs—little dogs rarely appear.
    • “You do not see a lot of little dogs in these paintings… for the most part they are all bigger dog breeds.” (33:29, Holly)

Personal Pet Stories & Animal Advocacy

(34:49 – 37:31)

• Both hosts share stories about their own pets, pet-sitting, and adorable animal behavior.
• Strong advocacy for adopting shelter animals.
  • “Anything that gets more animals adopted is a good move in my book, because we have plenty of them.” (34:57, Holly)
  • “Adopt them all.” (35:14, Tracy)
• Cute anecdotes about pet jealousy and house rules—especially “Onyx” the cat’s table antics.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Charles Sumner was right. He was right about so much stuff. And so much of the criticism he got at the time was kind of like, wow, that guy, he just wants too much. When what he wanted was the abolition of slavery and equal rights for Black people.”
  — Tracy V. Wilson (05:34)
• “That letter that Brooks wrote is the chilling wording of a psychopath in my book…Being so proud that he caned this person almost to death.”
  — Holly Frey (07:35)
• “He sure did put himself on the line for people a lot of the time. Like, literally, physically on the line for them.”
  — Holly Frey (20:24)
• “In the kingdom of highbrow intellectualism, I would be the monster…Give me dogs playing poker all day long.”
  — Holly Frey (31:32)
• “If they were Louis Wayne cats playing poker, I would have been incredibly into it.”
  — Tracy V. Wilson (33:17)
• “Adopt puppies.”
  — Holly Frey (35:12)

Important Timestamps

• 02:31 – Reflections on breaking the Sumner series into three parts
• 04:12 – Studying previous four-part topics and separating research threads
• 07:22 – Discussion of Brooks’ letter and political violence
• 08:45 – Modern parallels: Paul Pelosi attack
• 14:36 – Sumner’s personal life & modern interpretations
• 20:07 – Sumner’s actual and moral backbone
• 21:06 – Sumner’s upbringing and Tracy/Holly’s personal rebelling
• 24:06 – Sumner Tunnel name clarification
• 28:09 – Researching Cassius Coolidge and “Dogs Playing Poker”
• 31:32 – Defense of kitsch and democratized art
• 34:49 – Pet stories; animal adoption advocacy

Tone & Style

Engaging, conversational, and thoughtful: Holly and Tracy blend humor, personal reflection, and serious critique, maintaining an accessible yet analytical approach. Their discussions blend pop culture references, historical analysis, and personal anecdotes, offering warmth and depth for history enthusiasts and casual listeners alike.

Conclusion

This behind-the-scenes episode offers a compelling look at the research intricacies behind their Charles Sumner series, a thoughtful commentary on historical narrative and modern parallels, a playful appreciation for kitschy art, and heartfelt advocacy for animal adoption—all encapsulated in the approachable and lively manner fans expect from “Stuff You Missed in History Class.”