Behind the Scenes Minis: Much Charles, Many Dogs

Summary

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Stuff You Missed in History Class

Behind the Scenes Minis: Much Charles, Many Dogs (December 5, 2025)

Hosts: Tracy V. Wilson & Holly Frey
Podcast: iHeartPodcasts

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Episode Overview

This behind-the-scenes minisode accompanies the recent three-part series on Charles Sumner and briefly discusses Cassius Marcellus Coolidge (artist behind "Dogs Playing Poker"). Tracy and Holly reflect on the research process, explore nuanced aspects of Sumner’s life and legacy, address historiographical debates, and share personal stories and humorous tangents about animals in art and life. The episode is bookended and interspersed with lively discussions about kitsch, pets, and the enduring appeal of both highbrow and populist culture.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Reflections on Researching Charles Sumner

(02:31 – 10:48)

• Organizational Challenges:
  • Tracy describes managing mountains of research, which nearly led to a four-part series instead of three due to Sumner’s complex legacy.
  • “I was like, this is going to be four parts and we've only—we've never had like a four part episode on one person.” (03:47, Tracy)
• Unfinished Aspects:
  • The Grant-era Dominican Republic annexation was nearly a fourth episode; had to be cut for time constraints.
  • Sumner’s relevance to both past and modern justice movements is highlighted.
  • “So many of the things he was arguing were things that would be reargued again during the Civil Rights Movement. Some of it is stuff that is being reargued again now.” (05:16, Tracy)

The Caning of Charles Sumner & Its Relevance

(07:22 – 10:48)

• Violence in Politics:
  • Holly emphasizes the chilling nature of Preston Brooks’ pride in beating Sumner.
    • “That letter that Brooks wrote is the chilling wording of a psychopath in my book.” (07:35, Holly)
  • Both hosts draw connections to contemporary violence and society’s reaction to it.
    • “It feels really resonant with things that are happening right now. Like when Paul Pelosi got attacked with a hammer and there were people celebrating it and making fun of him.” (08:45, Tracy)

Historiography and Sumner’s Reputation

(04:37 – 07:12)

• The hosts discuss how early 20th-century historians, influenced by "Lost Cause" mythology, unfairly painted Sumner as radical and inflexible.
• Tracy rejects the narrative that Sumner forced the US into war by being uncompromising:
  • “How about we don’t do that? How about Charles Sumner was correct.” (06:55, Tracy)

On Charles Sumner’s Personal Life and Sexuality

(14:36 – 20:07)

• Interpretations about Relationships:
  • Tracy addresses recent writings about Sumner’s close relationships with men like Longfellow and Howe, noting some historians characterize him as “confused” about his feelings, but she finds this is too simplistic.
  • “It is absolutely true that, like, the identity of gay or queer as it exists today…was not a thing in the mid-19th century.” (15:35, Tracy)
• Differences from Modern Identity:
  • Both hosts argue that Sumner may have understood his feelings clearly, but wouldn’t have had today’s vocabulary.
    • “I don’t think he was confused at all. He knew exactly how he felt…He just used language that’s different than we would today.” (17:43, Holly)
• Limits of Modern Diagnosis:
  • They warn against retroactively diagnosing figures from the past: “It is not possible to diagnose people with things based on their written correspondence and stuff.” (23:34, Tracy)

Sumner’s Values and Backbone

(20:07 – 21:01)

• Holly and Tracy praise Sumner’s integrity, despite imperfection.
• “He sure did put himself on the line for people a lot of the time. Like, literally, physically on the line for them.” (20:24, Holly)

Sumner’s Upbringing and Personal Drive

(21:06 – 23:34)

• Holly critiques the historical norm of expecting children to support families, empathizes with Sumner’s rebellious drive to pursue education and self-betterment.
  • “That attitude always seems so cruel to me…welcome to the world, here’s the anvil that we put around your neck.” (22:08, Holly)

Fun Facts: Boston’s Sumner Tunnel

(24:06)

• Tracy clarifies that Charles Sumner is not the namesake for Boston’s Sumner Tunnel—it’s a different Sumner.

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Cassius Marcellus Coolidge, “Dogs Playing Poker” & The Art of Kitsch

(28:09 – 34:49)

• Coolidge in Context:
  • Holly found it tricky to research Coolidge, but says period newspapers reveal he was beloved in New York pre-“Dogs Playing Poker.”
  • “He was involved in all the things and people literally seemed to love him.” (28:36, Holly)
• Pop Culture Icon:
  • Discusses the frequently referenced “Dogs Playing Poker” in shows like The Simpsons and Cheers.
  • Surprised to learn that some dogs in Coolidge’s works are modeled on Caravaggio figures.
• Kitsch & Democratized Art:
  • Holly defends kitsch, seeing value in art’s ability to bring joy, regardless of intellectual status.
    • “In the kingdom of highbrow intellectualism, I would be the monster…Give me dogs playing poker all day long. Give me all the weird, kitschy art.” (31:32, Holly)
  • Argues popular art reveals cultural context and fulfills needs for humor.
    • “The fact that people need to embrace something silly…probably reflects like the fact that they maybe didn’t always have hilarity and frivolity in their day to day life and they just wanted one damn picture to hang on their wall that made them smile every day.” (32:55, Holly)
• Breed Preferences:
  • Noted that Coolidge’s paintings favor big dogs—little dogs rarely appear.
    • “You do not see a lot of little dogs in these paintings… for the most part they are all bigger dog breeds.” (33:29, Holly)

Personal Pet Stories & Animal Advocacy

(34:49 – 37:31)

• Both hosts share stories about their own pets, pet-sitting, and adorable animal behavior.
• Strong advocacy for adopting shelter animals.
  • “Anything that gets more animals adopted is a good move in my book, because we have plenty of them.” (34:57, Holly)
  • “Adopt them all.” (35:14, Tracy)
• Cute anecdotes about pet jealousy and house rules—especially “Onyx” the cat’s table antics.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Charles Sumner was right. He was right about so much stuff. And so much of the criticism he got at the time was kind of like, wow, that guy, he just wants too much. When what he wanted was the abolition of slavery and equal rights for Black people.”
  — Tracy V. Wilson (05:34)
• “That letter that Brooks wrote is the chilling wording of a psychopath in my book…Being so proud that he caned this person almost to death.”
  — Holly Frey (07:35)
• “He sure did put himself on the line for people a lot of the time. Like, literally, physically on the line for them.”
  — Holly Frey (20:24)
• “In the kingdom of highbrow intellectualism, I would be the monster…Give me dogs playing poker all day long.”
  — Holly Frey (31:32)
• “If they were Louis Wayne cats playing poker, I would have been incredibly into it.”
  — Tracy V. Wilson (33:17)
• “Adopt puppies.”
  — Holly Frey (35:12)

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Important Timestamps

• 02:31 – Reflections on breaking the Sumner series into three parts
• 04:12 – Studying previous four-part topics and separating research threads
• 07:22 – Discussion of Brooks’ letter and political violence
• 08:45 – Modern parallels: Paul Pelosi attack
• 14:36 – Sumner’s personal life & modern interpretations
• 20:07 – Sumner’s actual and moral backbone
• 21:06 – Sumner’s upbringing and Tracy/Holly’s personal rebelling
• 24:06 – Sumner Tunnel name clarification
• 28:09 – Researching Cassius Coolidge and “Dogs Playing Poker”
• 31:32 – Defense of kitsch and democratized art
• 34:49 – Pet stories; animal adoption advocacy

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Tone & Style

Engaging, conversational, and thoughtful: Holly and Tracy blend humor, personal reflection, and serious critique, maintaining an accessible yet analytical approach. Their discussions blend pop culture references, historical analysis, and personal anecdotes, offering warmth and depth for history enthusiasts and casual listeners alike.

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Conclusion

This behind-the-scenes episode offers a compelling look at the research intricacies behind their Charles Sumner series, a thoughtful commentary on historical narrative and modern parallels, a playful appreciation for kitschy art, and heartfelt advocacy for animal adoption—all encapsulated in the approachable and lively manner fans expect from “Stuff You Missed in History Class.”

Transcript

[Tracy V. Wilson]

This is an iHeart podcast guaranteed human.

[Holly Frey]

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Listen to your elders, honey. You might know them from their viral videos. But now the Old Gays are pulling back the curtain with their podcast Silver Linings with the Old Gays, brought to you in partnership with I Heart, Ruby Studio and Veeve Healthcare. Hosts Robert, Mick, Bill and Jasse share their favorite pride, memories and the importance of celebrating all year long in honor of Palm Springs Pride. So check out Silver Linings with the Old gays on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sophie Cunningham]

This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, or OSA in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snored loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at don'tsleep on OSA.com this information is provided by Lilly, a medicine company.

[BritBox Announcer]

It's the coziest time of year on BritBox. That means curling up with a gripping murder mystery, basking in a sumptuous picture period drama or discovering a new hidden gem. See the holidays differently when you stream the best of British TV with BritBox. Watch Britbox original series including the new season of the award winning Belfast police drama Blue Lights. However you cozy this holiday, it's a bit warmer with Britbox. Watch with a free [e-mail].

[Holly Frey]

Welcome to Stuff youf Missed in History Class, a production of iHeartradio.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Tracy V. Wilson.

[Holly Frey]

And I'm Holly Fry.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

This week we finished off our three part episode on Charles Sumner, the previous two parts happening last week and we just saved most of our behind the scenes on Charles Sumner for today. Rather than trying to have two different Charles Sumner behind the scenes as and keeping track of what was said.

[Holly Frey]

Yeah, we probably would have said A lot of repetitive stuff. If we tried to do it across.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Tv, yeah, it would have been a little weird. So what I will say about Morocco, one of the things that happened, I was working on this before we left for Morocco. I, when we left for Morocco, had a word count in my notes document that was essentially a two part episode already. And so I was like, I'm gonna have to work on this. And yet on my Kindle, I downloaded two different books about Charles Sumner to read on the Morocco trip. One of them I did not read at all. It went back to the library unopened. The other was zacharymese's book Charles Conscience of a Nation. Again, I already had a two part episode's worth of writing when I read this book and I did not start reading it until the last day of the Morocco trip. And I was reading it on my phone and just like highlighting sentences that were like little details that I didn't know already to potentially add into the episode later. As I was working on the episode though, there was a moment where I was like, this is going to be four parts and we've only, we've never had like a four part episode on one person.

[Holly Frey]

Right. We had sort of a four parter.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. Way back we had a sort of four interconnected episodes that were all about China under Chairman Mao. Right. And those had been to some extent researched and written in tandem, but to some extent researched and written separately. And it was just like I kept working on one thing and being like, oh, there's this other thing that's related to this that also needs more time with Charles Sumner. It was just a lot of, it was just he did so much and he was involved in so much and he wrote so much. And part of the reason it was not it did not turn into a four part episode instead of three is that I felt like I did not have the fullest understanding of everything about Grant wanting to annex what is now the Dominican Republic. And that would have been one of the things that could have pushed it into a four part episode. And I was out of time. I needed to finish writing the episode and send it to you so that we could record it so that there will be a podcast coming out on the Monday after we record this, otherwise we would have just not had one. But there's just so much that he was involved with and so much of it was ahead of his time. So many of the things he was arguing were things that would be re argued again during the Civil Rights movement. Some of it is stuff that is being re argued again now. And he was definitely not a perfect person. If he, you know, in. In my ideal world, he would have also spoken out on women's rights and the rights of indigenous people and the. And the rights of other, you know, non white people in addition to the previously enslaved and other people of African descent. At the same time, though, Charles Sumner was right. He was right about so much stuff. And so much of the criticism he got at the time was kind of like, wow, that guy, he just wants too much. When what he wanted was the abolition of slavery and equal rights for black people. Something that was in the outline at one point that I wound up taking out because of the whole I'm trying to keep this to three parts thing, was how in the early 20th century, historians writing about the Civil War and writing about him got really dismissive of him. They. This was, you know, a period of history and historiography that was really informed by the whole Lost Cause mythology of the Civil War, which we have covered as a whole episode on the show before. And so people talked about Charles Sumner, like, wow, that guy really forced the United States toward a Civil War by being so uncompromising about slavery. If he had just moved to the middle and tried to make nice with the Southern people, maybe things would have gone differently. And I'm like, no, how about we don't do that? How about Charles Sumner was correct. Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

I mean, particularly. Here's my thing. I had two things that really jumped out to me in this series. One is very silly, but the one that is germane to this.

That letter that Brooks wrote is the chilling wording of a psychopath in my book.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right.

[Holly Frey]

Being so proud that he caned this person almost to death.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

And that's the person we're supposed to be cool with and work with him. Hard pass.

I don't know. I don't know.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

All of that rhetoric around that and the weird news articles praising it are just like, they make me physically ill. It goes back to the thing we talked about in the behind the scenes when we were talking about ballooning and I said, humans are always just a breath away from violence.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right.

[Holly Frey]

And it's. It's that. It's so upsetting to me that after the fact, nobody's like, ooh, that kind of went too far. I mean, some people were obviously. But the supporters of Brooks were all like, right on. You really almost killed him. That was great. Like, what is wrong with your brain and heart at that point? Like, I don't. I don't Understand, it's very upsetting to me.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, yeah. This is one of the reasons why there have been multiple times over the last several years that I have been like, wow, wish that old episode on the caning of Charles Sumner was more than 12 minutes long because like it feels really resonant with things that are happening right now. Like when Paul Pelosi got attacked with a hammer and there were people celebrating it and making fun of him. Like that kind of reminds me of how people talked about Charles Sumner having been beaten almost to death on the Senate floor. Various examples of like people just spouting absolutely abhorrent rhetoric, like absolutely abhorrent pro slavery rhetoric and other people acting like that is normal.

[Holly Frey]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Like just sort of minimizing it and being like, oh yeah, like the, the Southerners are, you know, they're really attached to slavery. We've said in episodes before, including in this one, that like the, the northern economy was deeply interconnected with that. It was not. Like at this point leading up to the Civil War, the South was where slavery was actively happening, but like the north was complicit in it in a lot of ways, if not actively involved in some ways. But like a lot of the way that people talked about the institution and talked about the people who were enslaved was just horrifying then talked about by people who were sort of seen as moderate at the time as like, yeah, but we really have to make sure that those people have equal power to the free states in Congress. Right. We can't not have equal, equal power between them. So that is how we wound up with a three part episode.

With that. Because that 12 minute one just like could not really be brought out easily as a Saturday classic. When I was like, man, this feels like an echo of Charles Sumner being beaten almost to death.

[Holly Frey]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

It's the coziest time of year on Britbox. That means making piping hot tea on a chilly day, wrapping yourself in something soft on the sofa and getting lost in a brilliant series. This holiday season, Britbox has you sorted with the best of British tv. Curl up with eyebrow raising mysteries on the cliffy English coast in the new season of Beyond Paradise. Escape to sweeping countryside manors where headline making scandal is just another Tuesday in outrageous. Or patrol the charged streets and criminal underbellies of Belfast in the new season of the BAFTA winning police drama Blue Lights. Britbox gives you the kind of entertainment that makes being home on a blustery day a true luxury. So however you cozy, it's all a bit warmer with Britbox See holidays differently when you stream the best of British TV with BritBox. Watch with a free trial today at BritBox.com.

[Holly Frey]

Listen to your elders, honey. You might know them from their viral videos, but now the old Gays pull back the curtain on their podcast Silver Linings with the Old Gays, brought to you in partnership with I Hearts, Ruby Studio and Veeve Healthcare. For a very special bonus episode. Hosts Robert, Mick, Bill and Ja talk about how pride has evolved over the years and their favorite memories, all in celebration. Celebration of Palm Springs Pride because pride should be celebrated all year round. Listen to these fabulous friends swap stories exploring how queer life has evolved over the decades and the silver linings they've collected along the way. Each episode dives into hot topics from safe sex and online dating to untangling Gen Z lingo, as well as insights on how music, art and fashion show up in queer culture. So check out Silver Linings, a show about how pride ages like fine wine, available on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sophie Cunningham]

This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, or osa, in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snored loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at don'tsleep on OSA.com this information is provided by Lilly, a medicine company.

[Ed Helms]

Hey everyone, Ed Helms here and hi.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I'm Cal Penn and we're the hosts of of Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.

[Ed Helms]

This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Jenny Garth, host of the iHeart podcast. I choose me to discuss the new Audible adaptation of the timeless Jane Austen classic Pride and Prejudice. This is not a trick question. There's no wrong answer. What role would I play?

[Holly Frey]

You know what?

[BritBox Announcer]

I can see you as Mr. Darcy.

[Sophie Cunningham]

You got a little Colin Firth.

[Ed Helms]

Okay, that's really sweet. I appreciate that. But are you sure I'm not the dad? I'm not Mr. Bennett here.

Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcast.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

There's been more writing recently, of course, about his relationships with Longfellow and Howe, and one theme that kind of came up that I did not put in the episode because I. I just don't know if I agree with it. And if I had personally read all of his surviving personal documentation, I might feel differently. But I, like, I don't have access to all of that. And it's not reasonable for me to read a person's entire lifetime of, like, personal letters and correspondence and stuff to write up a history podcast. Like, that's just not how it works. But there are people who characterized him as confused about his own feelings for other men. It is absolutely true that, like, the identity of gay or queer as it exists today.

Was not a thing in the mid 19th century.

[Holly Frey]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

There were people who were living together as couples. There were people who, like, we have talked about many people on the show who are examples. There have always been people who's like, the definition that we read, whose sex or gender or sexuality, like, doesn't coincide with what is expected by society. That has always been the case. Right. But this, like, identity and this sense that a person's sexual orientation expresses something intrinsic about themselves, like, that was not really part of the public consciousness when he was living. All that is true. And so there's some interpretation that's like people who sort of conclude, like, I think he was a gay man who was confused because he did not have the language to understand his own feelings. And part of me sees that argument, and part of me also is like, this man was extraordinarily well read. He knew six different languages proficiently to fluently. He read extensively through, like, Latin and Greek literature and literature in other languages. And so it is hard for me to believe that a person who has that enormous breadth of historical and literary knowledge to have no way to sort of look at their own feelings and say.

I have feelings for this person. Like, there's just.

So much, so much that he could have been exposed to in the worlds of history and literature that could given. Have given him a little bit of language. And so there's just this sort of, oh, I think he was just confused. And I'm like, maybe, but maybe also there have always been people who were living outside of these binaries and structures, right?

[Holly Frey]

He.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

There were other examples from literature and history who he could have also had. He wasn't in a vacuum. Does this make sense?

[Holly Frey]

It does. Well, moreover, to me, it doesn't even. Your case doesn't even need to be made. Because even the examples that we shared in the course of this, this is a man who was very in touch with his feelings. You know what I mean? Like, I don't think it was a mystery to him that he loved these men. They may not have had the language to say, oh, I'm gay. He was, like, distraught that they were gonna go into their married, like, heteronormative life and leave him behind. I don't think he was confused at all. He knew exactly how he felt. Like, I compare it, for example, to somebody I always, like, love to talk about this topic, but when you compare it to, like, the way Bram Stoker wrote about other men and like, his letters to Walt Whitman that are very romantic and almost strangely raw about, like, himself and his feelings, but he seemed to not make the connection that, oh, I'm having an attraction to this person. And also, when you then read his oeuvre of work and you're like, wow, women really are scary. Like, I don't think he understood that that was what was going on. Whereas I do feel like Charles Sumner 100% knew he was deeply in love and devoted to these people, and he was grieving the loss of that relationship. I don't think it sounded like he didn't get it at all. He just used language that's different than we would today.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

But, yeah, it is absolutely possible, and it hap. It happens for a person not to have a word for something about themselves, and when they encounter that word for the first time, to be like, oh, that's me, actually. And so I can see how something like that would have applied to Charles Sumner.

[Holly Frey]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

But I just. I found descriptions of him that sort of were just like, yeah, I think he was just confused. And I'm like, I. I don't think confusion is. Confusion doesn't feel like the right word there. Yeah. I. Even though, you know, even though he was not a perfect person in any way, I love him. I did not expect to be ride or die for Charles Sumner, but that is where I wound up over the course of working on this. And, yeah, if I had had more time, we might have wound up with our first four parter on a single subject.

[Holly Frey]

I mean, he's extremely admirable, as you said. Like, he's not a perfect person. Nobody is. Yeah, we know that intrinsically after years of working on this show.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

There are a lot of great people who had problematic views on various things.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

But he sure did put himself on the line for people a lot of the time. Like, literally, physically on the line for them.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Holly Frey]

In ways that he did not have to and that none of his colleagues were doing. He gets points for that.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. Yeah. His telling voters about the three things to look for were. Were backbone, backbone and backbone. Yeah. I have some representatives right now that I'm just like, you want backbone? Yeah. You keep putting on blue sky that you're fighting for us with everything you have. What does that mean? What are you doing specifically?

[Holly Frey]

Right. Do you wanna know the other thing before you get to any sort of summation?

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Oh, sure.

[Holly Frey]

That made me. This is so rebellious 1980s teenager.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

The whole thing with his parents of like, well, you have to get a job sooner rather than later. Cause you gotta support the family. I know that's historically a norm. It makes me crazy every time I hear it. I'm like, I mean, still, the whole idea of people having kids and then burdening them with the responsibility of caring for the family makes me bananas.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

I hate it so much. Again, I know that's a cultural norm in a lot of places, but my whole thing is like.

Is that the only reason you had your kid? Like, I don't.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

Again, I'm a very rebellious. I was always a rebellious kid who was like, I very much played the I didn't ask to be born card a lot.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Oh, sure.

[Holly Frey]

But like, I just. That attitude always seems so cruel to me.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

Because it's like, welcome to the world. Here's the anvil that we put around your neck. Like, I don't know.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, yeah, I understand. So I'm under the impression that like their parent, his parents were like, very strict and not particularly demonstrative people. But it was a time when it was the norm to have big families and fewer really effective ways to prevent pregnancy. It's like, there's multiple layers of stuff going on there. And the fact that he was the oldest put him in the position of, like, having that expectation of also caring for younger siblings. And he also made it clear that. That he was like, no, I want to. I want to go to the fancy school. I wanna, like, this is what I want. And I'm gonna study Latin in secret.

[Holly Frey]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

To convince you to let me do it.

[Holly Frey]

Yeah. This is where I'm like, dude, I get you. I 100% get you. Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I was like, dude, I get you. When he was just like, I'm gonna make big lists of facts.

[Holly Frey]

Well, it reminded me, I know I've told the story before on the show of how I used to write little pamphlets and leave them around the house in the hopes of educating my family.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

Seriously. I was not a cool 7 year old. I was mean. I was very judgy. But it reminded me of that. I was like hehehe.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I get you.

[Holly Frey]

I get you.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. We also have talked many many times about not wanting to try to diagnose people with things like it is not possible to diagnose people with things based on their written correspondence and stuff like just he is not here to talk about. But I did see some speculation about him possibly being like neurodivergent in some way. Which possibly, possibly. So who knows really. But anyway, I I love him if you live in the Boston area, I learned when I said into my group chat that this is who I was working on a podcast on he is not the person the Sumner Tunnel was named for that was a different Sumner. Just in case you're curious.

It's the coziest time of year on Britbox. That means making piping hot tea on a chilly day, wrapping yourself in something soft on the sofa, and getting lost in a brilliant series. This holiday season, BritBox has you sorted with the best of British TV. Curl up with eyebrow raising mysteries on the cliffy English coast in the new season of Beyond Paradise. Escape to sweeping countryside manors where headline making scandal is just another Tuesday in our outrageous or patrol the charged streets and criminal underbellies of Belfast in the new season of the BAFTA winning police drama Blue Lights. Britbox gives you the kind of entertainment that makes being home on a blustery day a true luxury. So however you cozy, it's all a bit warmer with Britbox. See holidays differently when you stream the best of British TV with BritBox. Watch with a free trial today at BritBox.com.

[Holly Frey]

Listen to your elders, honey. You might know them from their viral videos, but now the old gays pull back the curtain on their podcast Silver Linings with the Old Gays, brought to you in partnership with I Hearts, Ruby Studio and Vive Healthcare for a very special bonus episode. Hosts Robert, Mick, Bill and Jesse talk about how pride has evolved over the years and their favorite memories, all in celebration of Palm Springs Pride. Because pride should be celebrated all year round. Listen to these fabulous friends swap stories exploring how queer life has evolved over the decades and the silver linings they've collected along the way. Each episode dives into hot topics, from safe sex and online dating to untangling Gen Z lingo, as well as insights on how music, art and fashion show up in queer culture. So check out Silver Linings, a show about how pride ages like fine wine, available on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sophie Cunningham]

This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, or OSA in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snored loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at don't sleep on OSA.com this information is provided by Lilly, A Medicine company.

[Ed Helms]

Hey everyone. Ed Helms here.

[Holly Frey]

And hi, I'm Cal Penn and we're.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

The hosts of Earsuit, The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.

[Ed Helms]

This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Jenny Garth, host of the iHeart podcast. I choose me to discuss the new Audible adaptation of the timeless Jane Austen classic Pride and Prejudice. This is not a trick question. There's no wrong answer. What role would I play?

[Holly Frey]

You know what?

[BritBox Announcer]

I can see you as an Mr. Darcy.

[Sophie Cunningham]

You got a little call in first.

[Ed Helms]

Okay, that's really sweet. I appreciate that. But are you sure I'm not the dad? I'm not Mr. Bennett. Here.

Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcast.

[Holly Frey]

We talked about Cash Coolidge this week. Yeah, this one was a little bit tricky because there is some scholarly work around his oeuvre, but not as much as I would like. But then when you start kind of digging into newspapers, he gets mentioned so much that it's easy to pull stuff because he was a busy bee in New York in the 1890s.

He was involved in all the things and people literally seemed to love him. So he seems like he must have been a fun guy to hang out with even before he started painting Dogs Playing Poker. Yeah. Which I love. Dogs Playing Poker has been referenced so much in pop culture.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

A ton. A ton.

[Holly Frey]

Everything. The Simpsons, Cheers.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

The Simpsons was the first thing that I thought of.

[Holly Frey]

Yeah, I don't know if you watched Cheers when you were growing up, but I think Sam had a collection of Cash Coolidge pieces or he was really into it.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I've more watched it in syndication. Like I watched it some when I was growing up, but it has. When it has been either in syndication or on streaming services. I've watched an amount of it.

[Holly Frey]

Yeah, I love those paintings. It's a little bit funny to me we included talk about it in here because it does come up a lot. So I Didn't want to act like that was not part of the zeitgeisty discussion about it. The whole, like, people love his work. Cause it's a man's world. And I'm like, that never even occurred to me. No. Growing up or looking at any of these pieces of art, I always just thought they were hilarious and fun. And I never was like, right. Cause they're also very masculine. That never crossed my mind for a second. Cause it's puppies.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

I was sort of surprised when I came across and then saw it in multiple examinations of his work. The fact that he modeled some of the dogs on Caravaggio figures, that was.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Very funny to me.

[Holly Frey]

And then I was like, I need an image of the card sharps immediately. And I was like, oh, yeah, he did model some of those dogs.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

I don't know why that's so funny to me.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. I'm obviously familiar with the dogs playing poker. And I had just never really seen the appeal of it. They existed. And I was like, okay, it's dogs, and they're playing poker. And I've been candid about the fact that I have always been more of a cat person than a dog person. And I don't know if that's related to the fact that my response to them has always just been kind of like, huh, it's dogs and they're playing poker. Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

I love. I love. I love. But I also. I love kitsch, which is like, I always crack up when I think about how much I love kitschy things. Because do you remember in the Unbearable Lightness of Being when Sabina says to Thomas, in the kingdom of kitsch, you would be a monster. And it's like a compliment to him that he is, you know, intellectual and highbrow, and he is not in any way interested in, like, trashy things. And I'm like, well, I guess in the kingdom of highbrow intellectualism, I would be the monster.

I'm like, yeah, give me dogs playing poker all day long. Give me all the weird, kitschy art. I just think it's fun. And I also think it's an interesting. I mean, one. We've talked so much on the show about my feelings about art and how art should be democratized and this idea of only fine art should count as art is messed up. Yes. Love all the masters. I mean, you've seen me cry in front of any Dutch Golden Age painting we encounter in our travels. But there is also an interesting place not just to say, like, this is or is not like high quality in terms of realism or its proportions or whatever, like actual technique. But it also says something about the world that it was created in. There is something to be gleaned from the fact that in the early 1900s there was a company that was like, you know what's gonna sell a kajillion copies? Calendars with these dogs playing poker. Like clearly the appeal of that in that moment.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right.

[Holly Frey]

Speaks to what that moment was like to live in. And that to me is the interesting part. And they did. I mean they were right. Those things sold like crazy.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

That's why they then were like, well let's put em on plates and on socks and prints and everything else. Because people love it.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

And the fact that people need to embrace something silly sometimes that is humorous probably reflects like the fact that they maybe didn't always have hilarity and frivolity in their day to day life and they just wanted one damn picture to hang on their wall that made them smile every day.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

Bring on the kitsch, baby.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

If they were Louis Wayne cats playing poker, I would have been incredibly into it.

[Holly Frey]

Your species is Tracy.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I guess so.

[Holly Frey]

I love a big goofy dog. I do love that he very clearly had breed preferences. Right. You do not see a lot of little dogs in these paintings. Once in a while you'll see one pop up in like a background of a big scene. But for the most part they are all the bigger dog breeds. The like cobby bodied dogs. It's kind of funny, I feel like if he were watching the Westminster Dog show, he would have clearly very big interest in certain groups and not others.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Holly Frey]

He'd be like, you keep your toy group away from me is what he would say. I wouldn't say that I want all the groups, but I love it. I love my.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

What I love, speaking of dog shows, is watching the dogs that do so terribly at agility trials. That is my favorite dogs.

[Holly Frey]

Like when they're just ill behaved and they won't pay attention to cues.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. And they're just like. Or I mean my favorites are the dogs that do seem to be trying but don't quite understand what needs to be happening right now and they'll get confused and turn around and go backwards or they will run partway over the little teeter totter and then go back or I find it all very delightful.

[Holly Frey]

I know you want something. I'm going to try a number of things and hope one of them is the right one.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

They're very cute.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

They delight me.

[Holly Frey]

I love when they use that opportunity to showcase, like, shelter dogs that maybe don't have amazing agility training, but they're very cute and sweet.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

Great. Anything that gets more animals adopted is a good move in my book, because we have plenty of them. Yeah. If you want a dog out there, I guarantee there's a perfect one at a shelter that is exactly the right fit for you and your family.

So adopt puppies.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Adopt them all.

[Holly Frey]

I would love to adopt dogs, but I travel too much and it would make chaos.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

For them, and they would probably be very stressed.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

My cats are stressed, and they are, you know, a different level of care needed. We have a pet sitter who comes when we travel, and they're spoiled, so the pet sitter comes twice a day. But still we get home and they are very needy, and it's clear that they are upset that we have been gone.

[Holly Frey]

Yeah. I mean, we're very lucky because our pet sitter is our close friend that we trade pet sitting with. So, like.

She has been involved in our cats lives from the gate. Like, the day they come home, she will come over and meet them and spend time with them. And, you know, they all know her very well. And, like, she was sending us pictures of while we were in Morocco. The cat's on her lap every night, some of which do not normally sit on our laps. And there was a little bit of like, what do you. What do you mean? Marva sat in her lap? A minor jealousy. She also has a very great way with cats, but even so, I don't think they're as traumatized, but they do get. Like, one of our cats has been a barnacle on me since we got home, where she's like, do not do that again, please. Thank you.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right. Our pet sitter, toward the end of the Morocco trip, sent pictures of one of our cats on the dining room table where she is not supposed to be. She gets up there. She knows she's not allowed up there because if she hears us stand up in the other room, we will hear her jump down off the table.

[Holly Frey]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

But the, you know, pet sitter doesn't know necessarily what all the rules of the house are. And she took a couple of pictures of Onyx on the table. And after we got back, Onyx was like, I'll show you. I will get on the table while you are looking at me. How's that?

[Holly Frey]

Babies still not allowed up there?

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Kitty cat babies.

[Holly Frey]

Yeah. But I do love a pupper. Ooh, they're fun. Doggies are fun. Maybe one day when my life calms down and I stop doing things. I can have a pup, but at this point I also don't want to like jack up the cat's life either. So many considerations.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Sure, sure.

[Holly Frey]

So in the meantime, I just donate a lot to shelters because I want those dogs to have toys and beds and yummy food and all the things they need. Yeah, and you know, maybe we should be donating prints of dogs playing poker so that the dogs will think, hey, I could do other things with my time. I could monetize my adorableness and play poker and win money. I doubt that would really work out, but it's fun to think about. If you are headed into your weekend, I hope that you get to think about doing fun things, whether that is with your pets or without. If you do not have time off, I hope you still get to spend time with pets if you love them, or with other people that make you happy and feel content, or with anything that makes you feel joy, whether that is kitschy or highbrow. Whatever you love is great. Just engage with it and make your heart happy. We will be right back here tomorrow with a classic episode and then on Monday with something brand new.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Stuff youf Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite show.

[Sophie Cunningham]

This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, or OSA in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snore loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at don'tsleep on OSA.com this information is provided by Lilly a medicine company.

[BritBox Announcer]

It's the coziest time of year on Britbox. That means curling up with a gripping murder mystery, basking in a sumptuous period drama, or discovering a new hidden gem. See the holidays differently when you stream the best of British TV with BritBox. Watch Britbox original series, including the new season of the award winning Belfast police drama Blue Lights. However you cozy this holiday, it's a bit warmer with Britbox. Watch with a free [e-mail] hey audiobook.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Lovers, I'm Cal Penn. I'm Ed Helms Ed and I are inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with our new podcast, Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.

[Ed Helms]

Each week we sit down with your favorite iHeart podcast hosts and some very special guests to discuss the latest and greatest audiobooks from Audible.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Listen to Hearsay on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow earsay and start listening on the free iHeartradio app today.

[Coca Cola Announcer]

What a matchup we got, y'.

[Holly Frey]

All.

[Coca Cola Announcer]

This is that classic HBCU vibe. Non stop action. The band is rocking and the crowd lit chant echo drum beat. Everybody showing that school pride game like this. Yeah, it calls for an ice cold Coca Cola. Ah, crisp and refreshing. That's a game changer right there.

Yeah, that taste always hits the right note. Just like the band at halftime. And just like that, we're back at it. Passionate fans, school colors everywhere and an ice cold Coca Cola. That's a winning combo no matter the sport, no matter the yard. Everybody knows fan work is thirsty work so grab a Coca Cola and keep that HBCU pride going.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.