Behind the Scenes Minis: Questionable Jokes and Turkey

Summary

Stuff You Missed in History Class: Episode Summary Episode Title: Behind the Scenes Minis: Questionable Jokes and Turkey
Hosts: Holly Frey & Tracy V. Wilson
Release Date: November 22, 2024

---

Introduction

In the episode titled "Behind the Scenes Minis: Questionable Jokes and Turkey," hosts Holly Frey and Tracy V. Wilson delve into the intricate and often uncomfortable aspects of historical humor and Thanksgiving traditions. They explore the lives and legacies of historical figures, the evolution of comedic norms, and the complexities surrounding the celebration of Thanksgiving in the United States.

Unpacking Historical Biographies and Racism

The conversation begins with a discussion about Don C. Sites, the biographer of Artemus Ward, a 19th-century humorist. Holly raises a critical point about Sites' biography:

"The introduction has a lot of gross racist stuff in it. [...] the writer's gross racist stuff is worse than Ward's gross racist stuff." ([03:15])

This sets the stage for a candid exploration of how historical figures and their biographers can perpetuate harmful stereotypes and racist ideologies. Holly emphasizes the discomfort in reading such material:

"It's not cool. It is worth reading for the understanding of the situation. But obviously with the lip on it that, you know, it is gross and it sometimes, I mean, I felt it was a stomach journey." ([04:20])

The Evolution of Humor: Offensive Jokes Then and Now

Tracy draws parallels between historical comedic styles and more recent trends:

"Reading about some of his humor reminded me a little bit of the era of comedy that you and I lived through... where there was kind of a vibe of it being okay to be offensive as long as you were being offensive to everyone." ([04:38])

The hosts discuss the problematic nature of "punching down" in comedy—where jokes target marginalized groups—versus "punching up," which targets those in power. Holly articulates the harm in indiscriminate offensiveness:

"Some of those people are gonna be a punch down and you are going to reinforce gross stuff. That hurts those people." ([05:41])

Tracy echoes this sentiment, noting the shift in modern comedy away from these outdated norms:

"I'm generally glad that for the most part, at least, the comedy I'm aware of has moved beyond that." ([05:24])

Artemus Ward and Charles Brown: Complex Legacies

The discussion shifts to Charles Brown, often associated with Artemus Ward, highlighting the complexity of their legacies:

"Everyone who knew him writes about how kind and gentle he was with everyone he encountered, but those are also people who also say gross racist things and may not recognize that he wasn't being kind and gentle." ([08:03])

Holly muses on the duality of Ward's character, questioning whether his offensive remarks were a means to underscore their inappropriateness:

"Is this like a reverse uno that I'm just not fully grasping? [...] He's an interesting one." ([06:15])

Thanksgiving and the Politics of Tradition

Transitioning from historical figures to contemporary traditions, the hosts examine the complexities surrounding Thanksgiving. Tracy critiques a local news article's assertion about the fixed date of Thanksgiving:

"An article stated with lots of authority that Thanksgiving is always the last Thursday in November. And I was like nah, that is not correct." ([14:44])

Holly shares her frustrations with the legislative processes involved in setting the date:

"How much legislative time was wasted on making the president proclaim it? [...] Why do we want to change?" ([15:39])

They further explore the entanglement of Thanksgiving with national identity and wartime propaganda:

"The Thanksgiving holiday has always been about like the identity of the United States as a nation... connections to wars that the nation [...] believed were being undertaken for just reasons." ([18:14])

Tracy references Godwin's Law, highlighting the timeless nature of comparing contemporary issues to historical figures like Hitler:

"Somebody coined that was about things will inevitably be compared to Hitler." ([18:14])

Reflection on Church and State Separation

Holly reflects on the myth of the separation of church and state, particularly in the context of national proclamations:

"I also marveled throughout, even though I have read some of these documents we referenced at just how much the idea of a separation of church and state was such a fib." ([20:29])

Tracy concurs, discussing how presidential proclamations often intertwine with religious references without endorsing specific denominations:

"Washington's proclamations definitely draw on the idea of God and prayer, but without specifying any particular religion or denomination." ([20:49])

Closing Thoughts and Listener Engagement

As the episode concludes, Holly and Tracy extend well wishes to listeners preparing for Thanksgiving. They encourage sharing feedback and subscribing to the podcast:

"If you want to send us a note about this or any other podcast... subscribe to the show on the iHeartRadio app." ([21:24])

Conclusion

"Behind the Scenes Minis: Questionable Jokes and Turkey" offers a thoughtful examination of how historical humor and Thanksgiving traditions reflect broader societal values and conflicts. Holly Frey and Tracy V. Wilson adeptly navigate the sensitive topics of racism in historical narratives and the politicization of national holidays, providing listeners with a nuanced understanding of these enduring issues.

---

Notable Quotes:

• "The introduction has a lot of gross racist stuff in it." – Holly Frey ([03:15])
• "Some of those people are gonna be a punch down and you are going to reinforce gross stuff." – Holly Frey ([05:41])
• "Thanksgiving holiday has always been about like the identity of the United States as a nation." – Tracy V. Wilson ([18:14])

---

For more insightful discussions and historical explorations, subscribe to "Stuff You Missed in History Class" on the iHeartRadio app or your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Movie Trailer Voice]

See Gladiator 2 only in theaters this film delivers action, an emotional and compelling story, and performances in spectacle on a scale unlike anything else. Gladiator 2 stands out with its immersive visuals and a gripping, character driven narrative. The film stars an extraordinary cast including Paul Mezcal, Pedro Pascal, Denzel Washington and Connie Nielsen, reprising her role as Lucilla. Get ready for an epic experience made for the big screen. Gladiator 2 only in theaters Shop Dell Technologies Black Friday Event for their lowest prices of the year, the future is on sale today with limited time deals on select PCs like the XPS 16 that accelerate AI with Intel Core Ultra processors. Black Friday is their biggest sale of the year and the best time to upgrade, but it's only here for a limited time. Shop [e-mail] deals that's dell.com deals.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Do you like podcasts, music and audiobooks? Because when you subscribe to Amazon Music Unlimited, you get all three in one app. Imagine listening to your favorite podcasts and music on the go to work, school, the gym, or better yet, vacation. Now imagine being on vacation with your favorite audiobook from Audible and then listening to a new one every month from a huge selection of popular titles. That sounds like a pretty good vacation, right? Audible is now included on Amazon Music Unlimited. Download the Amazon Music app now to start listening terms Apply what does every.

[Holly Frey]

Grocery store aisle now have in common? Products that come in paper packaging, and not just the obvious ones like cereal boxes and juice cartons. From beauty products to boxed water, there are more opportunities to go papertarian than ever before. So why should you? Because paper comes from a renewable resource and can be recycled up to seven times. Simply put, it's the smart choice for the environment, and it turns out, the easiest choice for you. Learn more at howlifeunfolds.com Papertarian welcome to.

[Tonya Rad]

The world of Bose Ultra Open Earbuds, the perfect gift for the music lover in your life. And now they're $50 off until December 29th. They even made Oprah's Favorite Things gift guide for 2024. Picture this a walk on a sunny winter day. You can hear the satisfying crunch of snow beneath your feet and your favorite holiday song playing. That's the magic we're talking about. Hear life and music at the same time. Act fast to shop Bose's holiday [e-mail].

[Holly Frey]

Iheart welcome to Stuff youf Missed in History Class, a production of iHeartradio. Hello and happy Friday. I'm Holly Frey.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And I'm Tracy V. Wilson.

[Holly Frey]

We talked about Charles Brown Slash Artemus Ward this week. Yep. I also said that I would talk about Don C. Sites this year. You did say that it was his biographer. He wrote a biography of Ward in the. I think it was 1919. I just want to warn anybody because it's an interesting biography, but if you go to read it, the introduction has a lot of gross racist stuff in it.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

Which was definitely like part of the time. But this writer's gross racist stuff is worse than Ward's gross racist stuff.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Huh?

[Holly Frey]

Like, it's really like, I don't even want to tell the stories involved. Cause they're so yucky.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

But like, it's one of those things where there's an instance where Charles Ward does something to kind of like show how stupid this black man he's talking to is. And then Sites makes a comment on the whole thing that is very, very gross. So just if you wanna go read some of this stuff, please know it is laced throughout with things like that. And it's not cool. It is worth reading for the understanding of the situation. But obviously with the lip on it that, you know, it is gross and it sometimes, I mean, I felt it was stomach journey. It was like, oh, even for the time, you are really just. No. So Brace.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. Reading about some of his humor reminded me a little bit of the era of comedy that you and I lived through. But like, our younger listeners may not personally remember.

[Holly Frey]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Where there was kind of a vibe of it being okay to be offensive as long as you were being offensive to everyone.

[Holly Frey]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And having like a weird edginess to all of the humor that was kind of like, would include a lot of really racist and sexist jokes, but with such a broad spectrum of them that it was like. Well, it's not that they're racist or sexist. It's that they are making fun of everyone.

[Holly Frey]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I'm kind of glad that. Not even kind of. I've generally. I'm generally glad that for the most part, at least, the comedy I'm aware of has moved beyond that.

[Holly Frey]

I mean, it still happens. It's that thing where, you know, I mean, I understand how somebody lands there and thinks that's okay. Because I am definitely like, I don't take anything too seriously myself, least of all.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right.

[Holly Frey]

But the problem is, even if you're making fun of everybody, some of those people are gonna be a punch down and you are going to reinforce gross stuff.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

That hurts those people. Whereas if you're punching up at people who have way more power and privilege than you with your jokes, they are going to be unharmed.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right.

[Holly Frey]

And that is why it is not okay to use the I mess with everybody like approach.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right.

[Holly Frey]

There are still people learning that lesson, or not learning it, as the case may be. But that's. Yeah. Artemis Ward.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

Yuck. Now, there's also the part of me, right. That is like. Is this like a reverse uno that I'm just not fully grasping? Was he doing some of these things as this character who was obviously kind of a train wreck to point out that they were gross?

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Oh, yeah.

[Holly Frey]

I don't know.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

It's a little bit weird because everyone who knew him writes about how kind and gentle he was with everyone he encountered, but those are also people who also say gross racist things and may not recognize that he wasn't being kind and gentle.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right.

[Holly Frey]

So it's a little bit tricky.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. I. I don't really ever post on any social media anymore, except for very occasionally Instagram. But one of the things that I got really tired of was the people who would say the thing quote ironically, but, like, really, you're just saying the same thing.

[Holly Frey]

Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And so I kind of wonder if some of his humor fell into that.

[Holly Frey]

Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I'm being ironic, but really, you're still just. You're saying the same thing.

[Holly Frey]

Right. That is. That is the trick of ironic humor. You cannot.

[Tonya Rad]

You.

[Holly Frey]

You can't always count on your audience to get the joke. Yeah. It's not amazing.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

Well, he's an interesting one. I like this idea that you can pinpoint a moment where kind of standup comedy happened for the first time. I find it hilarious that there's an elementary school named after him. I'm like, but is that weird?

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, it's a weird. A weird name choice in my opinion at this time.

[Holly Frey]

I.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

So there was an era. I mean, I'm sure this still happens at some points, but like, there. There was kind of an era in writing when it was way more common to render thickly all the way through the writing. Someone's accent and dialect.

[Holly Frey]

Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Like Bram Stoker did this also in a lot of his work. I find it so exhausting to read works that are written like that. And somehow, by coincidence, I wound up with the two longest passages of his writing.

[Holly Frey]

I swear I did not do that on purpose.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. I find it. As someone who loves to read and has always been a really good reader, I find it tiring to try to get through it.

[Holly Frey]

It's tricky.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Differently than when I am reading, you know, historical documents that have non standard today. Spellings.

[Holly Frey]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Or things that were printed at a time when they the long S's that looks like F's were in use. Like that's a little bit different way of brain power needing to be put toward it than the invented spellings and phonetic renderings of things that are part of this.

[Holly Frey]

Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. Charles Brown.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yep.

[Holly Frey]

Which makes me go, are you the. Is Charlie Brown named for you? I didn't look it up. I don't know. I don't know. It is funny. The one thing that I find kind of hilarious is how he was kind of like the predecessor by Minutes to Mark Twain. They definitely had similar style. So I don't know if that's just because they were dressing in the manner of the day or if it's because Twain kind of modeled himself on Artemus Ward. Charles Brown I don't know.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

But it's interesting.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Movie Trailer Voice]

See Gladiator 2 only in theaters this film delivers thrilling action, a compelling story, emotionally charged performances and spectacle on a scale unlike anything else. Only Ridley Scott could pull off a cinematic marvel at this scale. With sweeping storytelling and relentless action, Gladiator 2 stands out in the modern cinematic landscape with its immersive visuals, incredible score and a gripping character driven narrative. The film stars an extraordinary cast including Paul Mezcal, Pedro Pascal, with Denzel Washington and Connie Nielsen reprising her role as Lucilla. The fate of Rome rests on an uneasy alliance between Lucius and Macrinus who need each other to further their ambitions. Gladiator 2 is a complex political chess game, action packed revenge story with a beating emotional core. You will be on the edge of your seat as you experience the unexpected twists and turns throughout the film. Get ready for an epic, immersive, visceral experience made for the big screen. See Gladiator 2 only in theaters. Don't miss it.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Do you like podcasts, music and audiobooks? Because when you subscribe to Amazon Music Unlimited, you get all three in one app. Imagine listening to your favorite podcasts and music on the go to work, school, the gym, or better yet, vacation. Now imagine being on vacation with your favorite audiobook from Audible and then listening to a new one every month from a huge selection of popular titles. That sounds like a pretty good vacation, right? Audible is now included on Amazon Music Unlimited. Download the Amazon Music app now to start Listening Terms.

[Tonya Rad]

Apply this holiday season, surprise everyone on your list with the best gifts Tickets to see their favorite artists live. Choose from thousands of concerts and comedy shows including Mariah Carey, Mary J. Blige, Matt Matthews, Metallica Thomas Rhett, Trans Siberian Orchestra, Sarah Silverman and so many more. Share a memory together or give a gift they'll never forget. Find the most exciting gift for every [e-mail] gifts that's livenation.com gifts Congratulations to Easterseals Southern California on their first place win for Innovation in Customer Service at this year's Unconventional Awards by T Mobile for Business. Easterseals has used T Mobile 5G to create immersive VR development tools that aid people with autism in addressing transportation barriers. These tools are shaping the way safe and personalized skill building is delivered, and for that, T Mobile congratulates Easterseals Southern California for their unconventional thinking if you.

[Holly Frey]

Use paper, you're a human, but if you choose paper, you're a papertarian. Someone who lives a paper based lifestyle because it has a positive impact on the planet and also because it's the easiest choice you'll make all day. Seriously, it's as easy as reaching for boxed instead of bottled water. It's as easy as opting for beauty products that come in paper packaging. It's as easy as grabbing eggs in a cardboard container. And that's all in one trip to the grocery store. Which, if everyone's being honest, you were planning to go to anyway. But paper isn't just an easy choice. Papertarians know that. It's the smart choice too, because paper comes from trees, a renewable and sustainably managed resource, and paper products are designed to be recycled. In fact, when you choose products that come in paper based packaging, those fibers can go on to be recycled up to seven times. So why wouldn't you go papertarian? Learn more@howlife unfolds.com Papertarian.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

One of our episodes this week was about Franks giving. Ooh yes, it was Thanksgiving a week earlier.

[Holly Frey]

I have so I have so many thoughts on this one.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I have a lot of thoughts too. As I was doing research on this I had a bunch of things bookmarked and I think I've said before, like I'll just, I'll bookmark broadly and then I will go back to go through stuff. And one of the things I had bookmarked is like a local news article that was kind of generally about this, but this article stated with lots of authority that Thanksgiving is always the last Thursday in November. And I was like nah, that is not correct.

[Holly Frey]

Actually.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Something I wanted to put in the episode and I just didn't feel like had a good place in the rhythm of how things were going is that in Oklahoma there was some debate about which day the banks would be closed. The state was observing Thanksgiving on the 30th, but the bank holiday had already been established as the 23rd. And Attorney General Mack Williamson issued a legal opinion in this matter that had a little poem in it. And the poem went 30 days. Half September, April, June, and November. All the rest have 31. Until we hear from Washington. What are some of your thoughts, Holly?

[Holly Frey]

While we were recording, I just scribbled on my notepad that I keep by my computer, Sweet baby Greedo Thanksgiving. Get your act together. Here's my thing. Two things. One, how much legislative time was wasted on making the president proclaim it? Every time. Just a lot, right? Like, well, just set it and forget it. But it's my thing. But two, what it really, really reminded me of as, like, it was getting into the nitty gritty of, we're gonna change it to give more space. Everybody's freaking out, but we already printed the things, and we're already. And we already have the thing, and we're doing it this way. We've always done it this way. Why do we want to change? It reminded me of anybody that's worked in, like, a corporate setting or even a not corporate setting has had this moment where, like, there's some process or even lack of process that has been the standard mode of doing things that has problems. But even when somebody presents a solution that will require a little transition awkwardness, people are so mad about that part that they can't.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Oh, yeah.

[Holly Frey]

Get past it. And they fight. I mean, I've been on both sides of that equation where I'm like, no. And also, come on, you guys. This is never gonna get better if we don't have this two weeks that stink. And that's what it made me think of. Like, just if everybody could just chill out for, like, a minute. Yeah, we can make this decision. We know it's gonna be awkward. I'm a big fan of the let's just celebrate it twice if you love the other one so much, while we figure this out. But I did. It made me think about that a lot.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I was not really as focused on, like, the time spent doing the proclamations, because presidents and governors issue a lot of proclamations about a lot of stuff. And so, like, that did not. I didn't even really think about that as a factor in all of it. The amount of debating that could go into the passage of laws and, like, whether to ask the president to issue a proclamation. That did crack me up a little bit also. Just. I mean, I said it in the episode, it was really not necessary to manufacture a connection to this like the, you know, sort of mythical first Thanksgiving.

[Holly Frey]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Because the Thanksgiving holiday has always been about like the identity of the United States as a nation, you know, since there started to be national proclamations about it and very, very often connections to wars. Wars that the, you know, the nation and the, you know, the legislative branch and the executive branch believed were being undertaken for just reasons. Right. And the idea that like Providence was smiling on our war effort because our war effort is good, like that underpinned so much of it, which that's a whole other can of worms. But like we. It's probably a little harder for a kindergartner to wrap their head around than a feel good story about sitting down to a big dinner. But um, like those connections, there was plenty of other fuel for elementary school classes and whatever that did not involved having children make paper headdresses and wear them, for example. I know there are still schools that are doing that. Yeah. Um, so yeah, yeah, I forgot. What is the thing that somebody coined that was about things will inevitably be compared to Hitler? There's some term that somebody coined, oh, I don't know on the Internet, some law, somebody. I'm just gonna Google it. This is Godwin's law, which is as online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one. That of course was not coined until apparently 1990 according to this Google search that I've just done so many decades after Frank's giving discussion. But yeah, not a new phenomenon.

[Holly Frey]

No, not in the least. Anyway, I, I also marveled throughout, even though I have read some of these documents we referenced at just how much the idea of a separation of church and state was such a fib. Yeah, just such a fib.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. One of the things that I read about Washington's proclamations specifically was that like Washington's proclamations definitely draw on the idea of God and prayer, but without specifying any particular religion or denomination or sect within a religion, but still with the presumption that everyone has like a commonality to their religious belief that involves God in prayer.

[Holly Frey]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

But yeah, the idea that the, like that the first presidents or the so called founders were not really focused on God does not hold up in this episode.

[Holly Frey]

Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Anyway, I hope if folks are preparing for their own Thanksgiving meal, I hope those preparations are going well. I know stuff can start really early with making sure you can find the right potatoes for your potato casserole or whether they're going to be sold out of cranberries at the grocery store. So, you know, whatever you're working on with that in mind, I hope it's all going really well. And if you are having a Thanksgiving holiday in a couple weeks or a week, I guess no, I hope that's going to be great. As great as possible. If you want to send us a note about this or any other podcast or history [e-mail] and you can subscribe to the show on the iheartradio app and wherever else you'd like to get your podcasts. Stuff youf Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite show. Here's to Turkey Day, the favorite day of the year for many. From cozying up by the fire to watch the parade to gathering in the kitchen to whip up casseroles, it's a time of joy and togetherness. And here's to the Chinette brand for making it all a little easier with the Chinette Classic collection. No need to worry about cleanup. Plus Chinat Classic plates and bowls are compostable, helping not just to keep the sink clean, but also leaving less of a mess for future generations. So here's to being together. Here's to us. All of us. Find a local [e-mail] do you like podcasts, music and audiobooks? Because when you subscribe to Amazon Music Unlimited, you get all three in one app. Imagine listening to your favorite podcasts and music on the go to work, school, the gym, or better yet, vacation. Now imagine being on vacation with your favorite audiobook from Audible and then listening to a new one every month from a huge selection of popular titles. That sounds like a pretty good vacation, right? Audible is now included on Amazon Music Unlimited. Download the Amazon Music app now to start listening Terms apply.

[Tonya Rad]

This is Tonya Rad from Scrubbing in with Becca Tilly and Tonya Rad. This is what you do when you've just found that statement handbag on ebay and you want to build an entire wardrobe around it. You start selling to keep buying. Yep. On ebay over that all black everything phase. List it and buy all the color, feeling more vintage than ever. It's out with the new and in with the pre loved. Next thing you know you've refreshed your wardrobe basically without spending a dime. Yeah, ebay the place to buy and sell new pre loved vintage and rare fashion ebay things people love this holiday season. Surprise everyone on your list with the best gifts. Tickets to see their favorite artists live. Choose from thousands of concerts and comedy shows, including Mariah Carey, Mary J. Blige, Matt Matthews, Metallica, Thomas Rhett, Trans Siberian Orchestra, Sarah Silverman, and so many more. Share a memory together or give a gift they'll never forget. Find the most exciting gift for every [e-mail] gifts. That's livenation.com gifts. You wake up, put on your Ray Ban meta glasses. You're living all in. You realize you need coffee so you say hey meta. How do I make a latte through two shots of espresso? After Meta AI gets you caffeinated, you're ready for some beats. Hey Meta. Play hip hop music. You head to meet some friends but can't remember the place. Hey Meta. Call Eva Ray Ban Meta glasses, the next generation of AI glasses. Just say hey Meta. To harness the power of Meta AI, shop now at meta.com smartglasses.