Behind the Scenes Minis: Spiteful Robert

Summary

Stuff You Missed in History Class: Behind the Scenes Minis: Spiteful Robert

Release Date: February 28, 2025
Hosts: Holly Fry and Tracy V. Wilson
Produced by: iHeartPodcasts

---

Introduction

In the episode titled "Behind the Scenes Minis: Spiteful Robert," hosts Holly Fry and Tracy V. Wilson delve into the intriguing world of spite houses and explore the multifaceted legacy of Robert Morris, a lesser-known yet pivotal figure among the Founding Fathers. This comprehensive discussion not only uncovers the architectural oddities born out of personal vendettas but also scrutinizes the moral complexities of one of America's financial architects.

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Spite Houses: Architecture Born from Vendetta

Defining Spite Houses

Holly and Tracy begin by exploring the concept of spite houses—structures built primarily to annoy neighbors or make a statement rather than for practical living purposes. Holly expresses her fascination with these buildings, stating, "I love a spite house... I love holding grudges. And there was a little bit of like, shock." ([02:34])

Notable Examples

One of the primary examples discussed is the Alameda Spite House. Tracy highlights the misconception surrounding it, explaining that the house wasn't built out of spite but rather out of financial necessity: "Frohling's son was like, no, no, dude, we were just poor and that's what we could afford to build." ([03:15])

Legal and Regulatory Challenges

The conversation shifts to the modern-day challenges of constructing spite houses. Both hosts note the stringent building codes and zoning laws that make such endeavors nearly impossible today. Tracy remarks, "There are a lot of building codes that have been created that have very little to do with safety concerns..." ([07:36]) This segment underscores how urban planning and legal frameworks have evolved to prevent the construction of buildings that could disrupt community harmony.

Preservation Efforts

Holly mentions the Plum Island Spite House, emphasizing ongoing efforts to preserve this historical oddity. However, due to legal and financial hurdles, the future of the house remains uncertain: "There's the threat that it's gonna be torn down, but there are a lot of people that are trying to save it." ([02:56])

---

Robert Morris: The Spiteful Founding Father

Unveiling the Controversies

Transitioning from architectural quirks to historical figures, Holly and Tracy examine the life of Robert Morris, a key financier of the American Revolution. Holly introduces unverified anecdotes about his early life, including a bizarre account of his father's death involving a fly and cannons: "His father died in a freak accident where there were two ships involved. A fly allegedly landed on his father's nose..." ([17:38])

Ethical Ambiguities

The hosts critically assess Morris's tenure as Superintendent of Finance, questioning the integrity of his financial dealings. Tracy raises concerns about potential conflicts of interest: "I kind of wondered whether or how his using his position to enrich himself led to any perceptions or standards about doing that in the future." ([20:31])

Legacy and Historical Interpretation

Holly reflects on Morris's dual legacy, acknowledging his indispensable contributions to the nation's financial foundations while also recognizing the questionable aspects of his character: "He clearly did get a lot of stuff done. But it doesn't mean he wasn't a little slippery about some of it." ([22:16]) This balanced perspective invites listeners to consider the complexities of historical figures beyond their celebrated achievements.

Bias in Historical Narratives

In a thoughtful conclusion, both hosts emphasize the importance of recognizing bias in historical accounts. Holly states, "All the stories that you hear are told from someone's point of view... we try to take in all of the information we can from a variety of sources and ideally primary sources, and we try to be objective." ([28:40]) Tracy adds, "It's possible to take a bad faith reading of things and leave stuff out on purpose to tell a specific narrative." ([29:18]) This segment serves as a reminder to critically engage with history, understanding that every narrative is shaped by its storytellers.

---

Notable Quotes

• Holly Fry ([02:34]): "I love a spite house... I love holding grudges. And there was a little bit of like, shock."

• Tracy V. Wilson ([03:15]): "Frohling's son was like, no, no, dude, we were just poor and that's what we could afford to build."

• Holly Fry ([17:38]): "His father died in a freak accident where there were two ships involved. A fly allegedly landed on his father's nose..."

• Tracy V. Wilson ([20:31]): "I kind of wondered whether or how his using his position to enrich himself led to any perceptions or standards about doing that in the future."

• Holly Fry ([28:40]): "All the stories that you hear are told from someone's point of view... we try to take in all of the information we can from a variety of sources and ideally primary sources, and we try to be objective."

---

Conclusion

In "Behind the Scenes Minis: Spiteful Robert," Holly Fry and Tracy V. Wilson skillfully intertwine the peculiarities of spite houses with the intricate legacy of Robert Morris. By examining both the architectural manifestations of personal grudges and the ethical dilemmas faced by foundational figures, the episode offers listeners a nuanced understanding of how personal motivations and societal norms shape history. The hosts' balanced approach encourages critical thinking and a deeper appreciation for the complexities inherent in historical narratives.

---

For more insightful episodes, listen to "Stuff You Missed in History Class" on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

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[Maria Tremarki]

Welcome to the Criminalia Podcast. I'm Maria Tremarki.

[Holly Fry]

And I'm Holly Fry. Together we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime.

[Maria Tremarki]

Each season we explore a new theme. From poisoners to art thieves, we uncover.

[Holly Fry]

The secrets of history's most interesting figures, from legal injustices to body snatching.

[Maria Tremarki]

And tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in cocktails and mocktails inspired by each story.

[Holly Fry]

Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jon Stewart]

Catch Jon Stewart back in action on the Daily show and in your ears with the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. From his hilarious satirical takes on today's politics and entertainment to the unique voices of correspondents and contributors, it's your perfect companion to stay on top of what's happening now. Plus, you'll get special content just for podcast listeners, like in depth interviews and a roundup of the week's top headlines. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Colleen Witt]

Are you hungry? Colleen Witt here and Eating While Broke is back for season four every Thursday on the Black Effect Podcast Network. This season we've got a legendary lineup serving up broke dishes and even better stories. On the menu. We have Tony Baker, Nick Cannon, Melissa for October London, and Carrie Harper Howey turning Big Macs into Big moves. Catch Eating While Broke every Thursday on the Black Effect Podcast Network. IHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts. Wherever you get your favorite shows, come hungry for season four.

[Holly Fry]

Welcome to Stuff youf Missed in History Class, a production of iHeartradio. Hello and happy Friday. I'm Holly Fry.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And I'm Tracy V. Wilson.

[Holly Fry]

We talked about spite houses this week. I love a spite house. You know why?

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Why?

[Holly Fry]

Because I love a grudge. I love a grudge. I think this came up when we were in Iceland on the bus one day where I was like, I love my Grudges. And I tend to them like a garden. And I love holding grudges. And there was a little bit of like, shock. Yeah. There was some like, what you do what? I love a grudge. I love them. I don't. I don't have a grudge unless someone earns it. And then.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Then it's a grudge forever.

[Holly Fry]

You don't make the team again next year or ever again, you're off the list. But I also just love that level of petty where you're like, you know, what construction project? But as we noted in this, in that episode, some of these spite houses don't seem like spite houses.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right.

[Holly Fry]

I especially liked talking about the Alameda spite house and the fact that Frohling's son was like, no, no, dude, we were just poor and that's what we could afford to build. He couldn't buy another lot. And we wanted. And he wanted a place to raise his family. So that's the house we made. I sort of love that. It's very charming in its own right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

There were a couple things I wanted to say about John Hollensbury.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Okay.

[Holly Fry]

One is that. Cause I was really trying to find out more about him and information was pretty sparse. But one thing that I did finding in old newspapers were these ads that he would place selling things in the local paper. Like, this is a man who would have loved like Facebook Marketplace or like Craigslist. Because there were a lot of things of like one, he was a brick maker. So these make sense. But the way the ads were placed, it was like, if you would like a thousand bricks, come to my house. They're really, really like, please call on John Hollensbury and that would be it. Or like, I have carriage horses to sell. Please come to my house. Like, they were all very charming that way. And I wonder too if because he had built this house, everybody just knew which one was his house. So he didn't put anything other than come to my house, come to the Hollensbury home. There's another thing that I couldn't definitively tie to him. I found a patent for a John W. Hollensbury of Alexandria, Virginia, in, I think it's from 1824 and it's for a breech loading cannon. And I couldn't find any other John Hollensburies that were in the area, but I also couldn't be certain it was him.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Okay.

[Holly Fry]

So he may have also invented a cannon, in which case, you know, he doesn't only have to have the one identity of making A spite house, even though that's what everybody knows him for.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Mm.

[Holly Fry]

I just found that interesting. Yeah. You can't build a spite house now. It's too hard. Nobody will allow it. Nobody will give you the permits to build a spite house.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah. Most municipalities have carefully recognized, like, if your structure is going to be obstructive to your neighbors in a way that is not reasonable, you can't build this. Or if the size and shape of it are in a way that doesn't make a lot of sense, like, they can't be. You just can't do it. Which is.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

I'm like, is this gonna be an art form that will be lost over the time?

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I think in addition to building codes and zoning requirements and stuff like that, now there is much more coordinated and easy to activate group in a lot of communities to argue against housing and for whatever reason.

[Holly Fry]

Oh, yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Like. Like, there are a lot of building codes that make it really a. A lot easier now than before the days of building codes to bog down a project in approvals and hearings and public comment and that kind of stuff. So, like, in addition to the building codes themselves, which I feel like a building code that prevents you from building an inherently unsafe thing that is so close to the neighbor's house that, like, you have to, like, with the less than an inch of space between your house and the neighbors, I'm like, I foresee this causing big problems in the future. So, like, in addition to having laws to prevent that kind of building, like, also having a system that makes it a lot easier to derail projects, basically.

[Holly Fry]

Right. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. Right. The idea of building code gets into a whole other space. Right. Because there are certainly a lot of building codes that have been created that have very little to do with.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

Safety concern for anybody that are, like, inherently racist. Like, there's certain kinds of buildings you can't put in a neighborhood that would be primarily occupied by marginalized communities that are very racially oriented. And it's designed to keep those communities from thriving and having any kind of upward mobility for anyone. There are a lot of those. But I think for a lot of spite houses, it's more like, please don't ruin your neighbor's life because you had a fight.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. Yeah. I think there are a lot of building codes. We've talked about so many fires especially.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And like, building codes are important and necessary to build structures that hopefully are not deadly fire traps from the moment that they're opened. But also, like, there's A lot of building codes that have been passed in the last decades and centuries that just create a bottleneck for actually building the housing that communities need. Some of the reasons we have a housing crisis in a lot of the.

[Holly Fry]

United States, a lot of giant empty houses and people with nowhere to live simultaneously.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

It's one of the. One of the. One of the causes. Please, please do not email me lengthy explanations about the causes of the housing crisis. I'm aware.

[Holly Fry]

Right. Like I said, there are a lot of other spite houses that I want to talk about. If anyone listening is a big fan. Plum Island Spite house and the efforts going on right now to try to save that house, please know I know about it, and it's top of the list for next time around. But part of why it didn't go on this one, there's some legal and financial juggling going on right now. It's an older structure, and it's in very bad shape, and there is the threat that it's gonna be torn down, but there are a lot of people that are trying to save it. And that is in, like, a stasis state, it appears, right now, at least in terms of what I was able to uncover. So I didn't want to just, like, leave it as kind of a floopy. I don't know, maybe it's still there when we publish. Maybe it got torn down in the two weeks between when we recorded and when it goes live. So that's why that's not on there. But it is on my list for a future version of this. I think of these, the only one we know for sure is a spite house is the Dr. Tyler one who was like, no, no, no road here. I'm under construction. I love that idea. So much bias for action, for spite is very much in my wheelhouse of love. That might be my love language.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

Well, in that case in particular, right, because he did try to do everything through legal channels. You know, he went to city planning meetings. He went through various offices and filed protest documentation and tried to explain that that was gonna, you know, impact him in a negative way. And they were like, too bad. Too bad. So he, you know, took matters into his own hands.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

Spite. Spite house. I love you, Spitehouse. If you would like a thousand bricks, just come to my house. I gotcha. I don't know why that's so funny to me. Yeah, just come to my house, dude. I gotcha. I gotcha. It occurs to me that it would be fun to do a tour of spite houses.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

But the Problem is that many of these are privately owned homes.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yes. Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

The people that own. I'm trying to remember which one it might be. The Alameda Spite. Spite house. Which again, is not really a spite house. In the interview with the East Bay Times that they did, they mentioned, like, people are not especially respectful of them as a private residence. Oh, yeah, like she, the woman that was interviewed told a story about how like at one point on Halloween, a trick or treater just walked in and started commenting on the house and she was like, not someone she had invited in, just like barely passed her, just a person and that, like people will just come and knock on the door and stuff. So that would be the downfall or the downside, I guess, of living in a unique structure like that. I mean, the flip, right? The one in Alexandria, those people seem pretty accustomed to people doing that. However, it is also not their only or primary residence. So it probably is not as disruptive to their day to day lives to have tourists standing outside it, reaching their arms out and going, look how skinny this house is. Which brings me to my last point.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Okay.

[Holly Fry]

People may have noticed that we avoided superlatives like, this is the skinniest spider. This is the. Oh, sure, several houses claim that. I think, unless there's one, I haven't found that the one in Alexandria is the narrowest at 7ft because the others that we mentioned are all like 10ft. The other two that we mentioned, but I don't know for sure. And I don't, you know, they're all just interesting in their own right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right.

[Holly Fry]

I'm here for the spite house. There are also a couple I want to cover that are no longer exist. And so it's going to take a little more work to find information and make sure I have the right info on them. But spite houses.

[Maria Fernanda Diaz]

Hey, y'all. I'm Maria Fernanda Diaz. My podcast when youn're Invisible is my love letter to the working class people and immigrants who shaped my life. I get to talk to a lot of people who form the backbone of our society, but who have never been interviewed before. Season 2 is all about community organizing and being underestimated.

[T-Mobile Advertiser]

All the greatest changes have happened when.

[Emea]

A couple of people said, this sucks.

[T-Mobile Advertiser]

Let'S do something about it.

[Paola Pedrosa]

I can't have more than $2,000 in my bank account or else I can't get disability benefits. They won't let you succeed. I know we get paid serve you guys, but like, be respectful. We're made out of the same things. Bone, body, blood.

[Emea]

It's rare to have black male teachers. Sometimes I am the lesson and I'm also the testament.

[Maria Fernanda Diaz]

Listen to when you're invisible as part of the my cultura Podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Maria Tremarki]

Welcome to the Criminalia Podcast. I'm Maria Tremarke.

[Holly Fry]

And I'm Holly Fry. Together we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime.

[Maria Tremarki]

Each season we explore a new theme, everything from poisoners and pirates to art thieves and snake oil products and those who made and sold them.

[Holly Fry]

We uncover the stories and secrets of some of history's most compelling criminal figures, including a man who built a submarine as a getaway vehicle. Yep, that's a fact.

[Maria Tremarki]

We also look at what kinds of societal forces were at play at the time of the crime, from legal injustices to the ethics of body snatching, to see what, if anything, might look different through today's perspective.

[Holly Fry]

And be sure to tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in custom made cocktails and mocktails inspired by the stories. There's one for every story we tell.

[Maria Tremarki]

Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Emea]

I started to live a double life when I was a teenager. Responsible and driven and wild and out of control. My head is pounding. I'm confused. I don't know why I'm in jail. It's hard to understand what hope is when you're trapped in a cycle of addiction. Addiction took me to the darkest places. I had an AK47 pointed at my head. But one night, a new door opened and I made it into the rooms of recovery. The path would have roadblocks and detours, stalls and relapses. But when I was feeling the most lost, I found hope with community and I made my way back this season. Join me on my journey through addiction and recovery. A story told in 12 steps. Listen to Crumbs as part of the Michael Lura Podcast Network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Paola Pedrosa]

Welcome. My name is Paola Pedrosa, a medium and the host of the Ghost Therapy podcast, where it's not just about connecting with deceased loved ones. It's about learning through them and their new perspective. Join me on the Ghost Therapy podcast.

[Colleen Witt]

Whoa.

[Holly Fry]

My lights in my living room just flickered. I'm a little nervous. I'm excited. I'm excited, nervous. You know, I'm a very spiritual person, so I'm like, I'M ready and open.

[Paola Pedrosa]

That was amazing. I feel so grateful right now. I got to speak to my great grandmother Abuela, and she gave me a lot of really good advice that I'm going to have to really think about.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Wow.

[Paola Pedrosa]

Okay.

[Holly Fry]

That's crazy.

[Paola Pedrosa]

Yes, that is accurate. Listen to the Ghost Therapy podcast as part of the My Cultura Podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Holly Fry]

We talked about founding father Robert Morris this week. Yeah, I have some thoughts about him.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, I like how we both just sort of stopped. Tell us your thoughts, Holly.

[Holly Fry]

Well, first I'll. I'll include a thing that I didn't put in the episode. There are a couple things about his youth and his father that are not really substantiated. One is that his father died in a freak accident where there were two ships involved. A fly allegedly landed on his father's nose and he swatted it away, and the other ship took that as a signal to fire their cannons, and that's how he died. I don't know if that's true, but it's an interesting story.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Okay.

[Holly Fry]

Also, how would anyone survive to know there was a fly involved at that point? I don't know.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I have that question with a lot of stories like this. Seems like no one would have been there to witness this. So how do we know?

[Holly Fry]

And if they were, who are they? The other thing that can't really be substantiated at all. And I wondered it from the gate. In reading the little we have about his youth, I was like, wait, why was his dad in the colonies already while he was still in, like, what is going on there? And the supposition by some historians is that Robert may have been born out of wedlock. He appears to have been raised by his maternal grandmother. So it could just be that his mom was somehow not in the picture for another reason, but that his grandmother raised him until he was old enough to go to be with his father. Okay, again, that's not substantiated, but I wanted to mention it in case anybody's like, yeah, but what. What exactly was going on there? I don't know for sure. That seems like a sound theory, but can you imagine? I can. If someone like a congressman was like, oh, yeah, I was on this committee that was supposed to raise money, and we didn't raise enough, so I just wrote a check. What? Like, if it's supposed to be an official government channel situation.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right, right.

[Holly Fry]

Seems very odd to me. Somebody's gonna write us and be like, that happens all the time. Here are examples. And maybe. But I don't think so. No.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I feel like everything I could say about this is just gonna get me yelled at.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's fascinating. I also do like that the way the investigation into his dealings as Superintendent of Finance is very like, don't worry about it. We looked into it.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

Well. And.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I kind of wondered whether or how his. You using his. His position to enrich himself led to any perceptions or standards about doing that in the future. Because there are still plenty of ways that people serving in the US Government can enrich themselves through their jobs.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Some of which are basically illegal, but others are not. And so I was just. I don't know. It was. I was curious about that. And that also seems like the, you know, somebody's PhD thesis. Not something that we can figure out in a week on our podcast.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah, yeah. Because there. It may have been a factor, but we would have to comb through, like, all of the writing of every legislator who introduced bills or whatever trying to reform and amend those kinds of practices, which, as you just said, is not really something we can do over the course of a week. Yeah. I definitely found it very, very intriguing how much, in reading about him, it splits. So 50, 50 of super crazy he was. You know, he's the reason that the US Exists, because without the money that he came up with, we never would have been able to stand up to Britain, blah, blah, blah, et cetera, et cetera, and others who are, like, super shady.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right.

[Holly Fry]

It splits completely down the middle. Yeah. Yeah. My take is always that probably irritatingly middle ground of, like, both can be true. You know, he clearly did get a lot of stuff done. He clearly was close with a lot of the people that the US Likes to hold up as, like, icons of our foundation. But it doesn't mean he wasn't a little slippery about some of it.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Mm.

[Maria Fernanda Diaz]

Hey, y'all. I'm Maria Fernanda Diaz. My podcast, when youn're Invisible is my love letter to the working class people and immigrants who shaped my life. I get to talk to a lot of people who form the backbone of our society, but who have never been interviewed before. Season 2 is all about community organizing and being underestimated.

[T-Mobile Advertiser]

All the greatest changes have happened when.

[Emea]

A couple of people said, this sucks.

[T-Mobile Advertiser]

Let'S do something about it.

[Paola Pedrosa]

I can't have more than $2,000 in my bank account or else I can't get disability benefits. They won't let you succeed. I know. We get paid to serve you guys, but like, be respectful. We're made out of the same things. Bone, body, blood.

[Emea]

It's rare to have black male teachers. Sometimes I am the lesson.

[Holly Fry]

And I'm also the testament.

[Maria Fernanda Diaz]

Listen to when you're invisible as part of the my Cultura Podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Maria Tremarki]

Welcome to the Criminalia Podcast. I'm Maria Tremarke.

[Holly Fry]

And I'm Holly Fry. Together we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime.

[Maria Tremarki]

Each season we explore a new theme, everything from poisoners and pirates to art thieves and snake oil products and those who made and sold them.

[Holly Fry]

We uncover the stories and secrets of some of history's most compelling criminal figures, including a man who built a submarine as a getaway vehicle. Yep, that's a fact.

[Maria Tremarki]

We also look at what kinds of societal forces were at play at the time of the crime, from legal injustices to the ethics of body snatching, to see what, if anything, might look different through today's perspective.

[Holly Fry]

And be sure to tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in custom made cocktails and mocktails inspired by the stories. There's one for every story we tell.

[Maria Tremarki]

Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Holly Fry]

I'm Mark Seale.

[Nathan King]

And I'm Nathan King.

[Holly Fry]

This is Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli. The five families did not want us to shoot that picture.

[Nathan King]

Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli is based on my co host Mark's best selling book of the same title. And on this show we call upon his years of research to help unpack the story behind the Godfather's birth. From start to finish, this is really.

[Colleen Witt]

The first interview I've done in bed.

[Nathan King]

We sift through innumerable accounts. 35 pages isn't very much, many of them conflicting.

[Holly Fry]

That's nonsense.

[Nathan King]

There were 60 pages. And try to get to the truth of what really happened.

[Holly Fry]

And they said we're finished.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

This is over. It only stopped going to work.

[Holly Fry]

You got to get rid of those guys.

[Nathan King]

Leave the Take the Cannoli features new and archival interviews with Francis Ford Coppola, Robert Evans, James Caan, Talia Scheier and many others.

[Holly Fry]

Yes, that was a real horse's head.

[Nathan King]

Listen and subscribe to Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Emea]

I started to live a double life when I was A teenager, responsible and driven and wild and out of control. My head is pounding. I'm confused. I don't know why I'm in jail. It's hard to understand what hope is when you're trapped in a cycle of addiction. Addiction took me to the darkest places. I had an AK47 pointed at my head. But one night, a new door opened and I made it into the rooms of recovery. The path would have roadblocks and detours, stalls and relapses. But when I was feeling the most lost, I found hope with community and I made my way back. This season, Join me on my journey through addiction and recovery. A story told in 12 steps. Listen to Crumbs. As part of the Michael Luda Podcast Network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Holly Fry]

I loved that quote from the William and Mary 1934 piece where it was like. It was like, no, absolutely. Here are all the ways this could easily work for him to be doing this and juggling money on the back end in ways that no one could ever track. Especially when you consider that when he took that job, he was like, by the way, I have rules. Those rules are nobody's the boss of me. Which is, you know, a thing.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Uh huh.

[Holly Fry]

Let's put kitties in charge.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

It will be like naps in the sunbeam all day.

[Holly Fry]

Maybe. I was just thinking. One of our newer kitties is diabolical. She's super smart and a little bit sneaky, so I don't think she should be in charge as much as I love and adore her. But she's like, I really expect to wake up in the middle of the night and have her tiny paws gripped around my hand with a pen in it, signing away the deed to my house. She's just like that. Smart and diabolical. And her sister is very sweet and not a fool, but she's not that diabolical.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right. Right.

[Holly Fry]

I'm like in the nature or nurture question. Here's an obvious example. They are from the same litter. And one of them owns the house already and probably has power of attorney I don't even know about. And the other one is like, I just want to sleep in my tower.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

Anyway, I had to turn it to kitties in the interest of levity.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

Just remember, all the stories that you hear are told from someone's point of view. I'll say that. About history. All of history. I mean, we talk about this. We're both pretty transparent about that. With us like it's told from our point of view. And we try to take in all of the information we can from a variety of sources and ideally primary sources, and we try to be objective as we evaluate that information. But everybody comes to every table with a little bit of bias, whether they're conscious of it or not. And even if you're conscious of it and working against it, you can't eradicate it. So. Yeah, always keep that in mind. Just as a rule of thumb.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, well, and I will also say this is totally true, everything that you just said. And it's also totally true that it's possible to take a. Just a bad faith reading of things and leave stuff out on purpose to tell a specific narrative of, for example, the Founders as flawless idealists.

[Holly Fry]

Which to me, I mean, from my perspective, is not very interesting. No, it's more meaningful to me to know that the people that were trying to build something new and what they hoped would be better were messy because, like, it's, it's that. That Blakeian thing of like, you can't really be good unless you know, of evil, unless you, you know, like, it's, it's not, it's not realistic. And it also creates this complete fictional standard of behavior that's not realistic.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right.

[Holly Fry]

It's. It's more interesting to know they were grappling with their own mess and yet still managed to pull through a fairly ideological government plan with a lot of money problems.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. And also problems about who was fully a person.

[Holly Fry]

Right. I mean, obviously that's like a huge thing. There are a lot of problems with, you know, the early stages of the US story that get really, really occluded in a lot of discussion of them. But there are also a lot of founding fathers that we don't talk about very much and we might do some more on, on some more of them because they're, they're there, they count in the, in the mix. But Robert Morris is not somebody I was ever taught a lot about in school.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

No, me neither.

[Holly Fry]

I don't really remember ever being taught about him in school. That doesn't mean I wasn't ever, but I have no memory of it. Yeah. But yeah, definitely not in the mix of all the heavy hitters. Even though he was a heavy hitter. Yeah. So interesting. Just again, history. History comes with bias. If you are headed into some time off this weekend, I hope it's amazing. I hope you can give your brain a rest from the tumult of the world and that you can do some things you love be with the people and animals and whatever else you love, the art you love and that you are cool to everybody that you encounter and everybody is cool to you. If this is not your time off coming up and you have obligations or you have to work, I also hope everybody's really nice to you and nobody's a jerk and that we all try to do better. I can always be improving because I have dark thoughts sometimes. I got mad at somebody on the phone last week. It happens. We're working on it. But in any case, I I hope everybody is finding whatever pockets of joy you can. We will be right back here tomorrow with a classic episode and then on Monday with something brand new.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Stuff youf Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple plus podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Maria Tremarki]

Welcome to the Criminalia Podcast. I'm Maria Tremarke.

[Holly Fry]

And I'm Holly Fry. Together we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime.

[Maria Tremarki]

Each season we explore a new theme, from poisoners to art thieves.

[Holly Fry]

We uncover the secrets of history's most interesting figures, from legal injustices to body snatching.

[Maria Tremarki]

And tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in cocktails and mocktails inspired by each story.

[Holly Fry]

Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jon Stewart]

Catch Jon Stewart back in action on the Daily show and in your ears with the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. From his hilarious satirical takes on today's politics and entertainment to the unique voices of correspondence and contributors contributors, it's your perfect companion to stay on top of what's happening now. Plus, you'll get special content just for podcast listeners, like in depth interviews and a roundup of the week's top headlines. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Colleen Witt]

Are you hungry? Colleen Witt here and Eating While Broke is back for Season four every Thursday on the Black Effect Podcast Network. This season we've got a legendary line lineup serving up broke dishes and even better stories. On the menu we have Tony Baker, Nick Cannon, Melissa Ford, October London, and Carrie Harper Howey turning Big Macs into big moves. Catch Eating While Broke every Thursday on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts. Wherever you get your favorite shows. Come hungry for season four.

[Emea]

I'm Emea, host of the podcast Crumbs. For years I had to rely on other people to tell me my story. And what I heard wasn't good.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

You?

[Emea]

Really? Last night, it felt like I lived most of my life in a blackout. I was trapped in addiction. I had to grab the lamp and smashed it against the walls. And then I decided I wanted to tell my own story. Listen to crumbs on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.