Behind the Scenes Minis: Unplanned Sarah Week

Summary

Stuff You Missed in History Class: Episode Summary Behind the Scenes Minis: Unplanned Sarah Week
Release Date: November 29, 2024
Hosts: Holly Fry & Tracy V. Wilson
Produced by: iHeartPodcasts

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Introduction to the Unplanned Two-Part Episode

In the episode titled "Behind the Scenes Minis: Unplanned Sarah Week," hosts Holly Fry and Tracy V. Wilson delve into the intricacies and unexpected developments that occurred during the creation of a two-part episode focused on Sarah Winnemucca. Initially intended as a single installment, the depth and complexity of Winnemucca's life necessitated an expansion into a two-part series, leading to delays in the release schedule.

Tracy V. Wilson explains the situation:

"We spent all week talking about Sarah Winnemucca. That was not the plan. I was not expecting this to be a two part episode." ([02:48])

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Exploring Sarah Winnemucca’s Legacy and Controversies

The hosts express their admiration for Sarah Winnemucca, highlighting her multifaceted role as an advocate and her controversial decisions. Winnemucca’s efforts to balance assimilation with the preservation of Northern Paiute culture are examined, particularly her attempts to establish educational institutions that respected her community's language and traditions.

Tracy V. Wilson states:

"I really admire a lot of things about Sarah Winnemucca, and I also understand how controversial she can be." ([04:07])

Winnemucca's collaboration with the U.S. Army is discussed, distinguishing her unique position compared to other indigenous figures of the 19th century. Despite working with authoritative entities, she took initiatives that opposed forced assimilation, such as building a brush arbor for schooling when financial constraints prevented constructing a formal school building.

Tracy V. Wilson notes:

"Some of the stuff she tried to do was really the opposite of assimilation, like trying to start that school." ([04:26])

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Challenges in Research and Narrative Consistency

Creating an accurate portrayal of Winnemucca's life presented significant challenges for the hosts. Discrepancies between Winnemucca's autobiography and historical records led to confusion, particularly concerning the timeline of events and the exact dates of significant moments. This inconsistency required meticulous cross-referencing of sources to ensure factual accuracy.

Tracy V. Wilson shares:

"There were moments where I got so confused because I would have had a source that was like the actual verified year that something happened. And then I would have a piece from her autobiography that said a different year." ([13:33])

Additionally, the various names and statuses of reservations during Winnemucca's time added another layer of complexity. Some reservations mentioned in historical accounts no longer exist or have since been renamed, making it difficult to pinpoint exact locations and contexts within Winnemucca's narrative.

Tracy V. Wilson elaborates:

"Sometimes I'm not sure which reservation is being discussed right now." ([15:17])

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Personal Life and Representation

Winnemucca's personal life, particularly her relationships and marital history, is touched upon. The hosts discuss the limited information available about her marriages, noting that much of the speculation surrounding them is not supported by her own writings. Winnemucca's portrayal in her autobiography does not delve deeply into her father’s death or the outcomes of her marriages, focusing instead on broader social and political issues affecting the Northern Paiute.

Tracy V. Wilson remarks:

"She never had any children, but she did have several marriages and they all seem to have been pretty short lived and not particularly happy." ([16:20])

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Artistic Representation and Public Memory

The episode also examines how Winnemucca is commemorated in public spaces, specifically referencing her statue at the U.S. Capitol. The hosts discuss the artistic choices in the statue's design, noting the dynamic representation of her garments and the mixed-media portrayal of her skin, which combines bronze casting with duller tones to create a visually engaging likeness.

Holly Fry comments:

"It's interesting in that the way it looks. It looks, it's like mixed media in terms of like the way her skin is represented." ([15:54])

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Final Reflections and Episode Wrap-Up

As the episode concludes, Tracy and Holly reflect on the challenges and rewards of bringing Sarah Winnemucca's story to a broader audience. They express hope that listeners will gain a deeper understanding of her impact and the complexities surrounding her legacy.

Tracy V. Wilson concludes:

"We will be back with a Saturday classic tomorrow and something brand new on Monday." ([18:36])

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Key Takeaways

• Unplanned Expansion: The depth of Sarah Winnemucca's life story required expanding a planned single episode into a two-part series, affecting the release schedule.

• Cultural Advocacy vs. Controversy: Winnemucca's efforts to balance cultural preservation with the pressures of assimilation were both admirable and contentious.

• Research Challenges: Discrepancies between Winnemucca's writings and historical records posed significant challenges in accurately portraying her timeline and activities.

• Limited Personal Insights: Winnemucca's personal life remains partially obscured due to limited references in her autobiography, leaving much to scholarly interpretation.

• Artistic Representation: The statue of Sarah Winnemucca at the U.S. Capitol serves as a testament to her enduring legacy, with thoughtful artistic design choices highlighting her significance.

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This episode offers listeners an in-depth look behind the scenes of producing a historical podcast episode, navigating the complexities of Sarah Winnemucca's life and legacy. Through thoughtful discussion and critical analysis, Holly Fry and Tracy V. Wilson provide valuable insights into both the historical figure and the podcasting process.

Transcript

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[Holly Fry]

Welcome to Stuff youf Missed in History Class, a production of iHeartRadio.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Happy Friday. I'm Tracy V. Wilson.

[Holly Fry]

And I'm Holly Fry.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

We spent all week talking about Sarah Winnemucca. That was not the plan. I was not expecting this to be a two part episode. And as a one part episode, it would have come out many weeks earlier than it is, in fact, coming out, because for reasons, we had multiple consecutive weeks where one episode was already spoken for. And we like to have our two parters both running together in the same week. And so once I realized it was a two part episode, it was like, well, this is not going to come out for several weeks later than I had planned. Which is fine. It just means that we are recording this behind the scenes on October 29, and it is not going to come out for almost a month, maybe exactly.

[Holly Fry]

A month that time will fly. So.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Time, yeah, time will fly. We will be away. I think it's exactly. It's exactly a month that this before. This will come out. For a week of that, you and I will be away, but then we will be back, and this episode will already be recorded. Well, well, well, in advance. I. I said in this episode, I really admire a lot of things about Sarah Winnemucca, and I also understand how controversial she can be. Oh, yeah. And I also think a lot of people. We have talked about, a lot of indigenous people from the 19th century in the United States have in one way or another talked about assimilating with white culture, believing that was, like, the only way that they would be able to survive.

[Holly Fry]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And my total outsider's perspective, I am not Indigenous. I definitely am not Northern Paiute. I feel like I have seen more criticism of her today for some of these things than some of the other folks that we've talked about. And I think some of that might be influenced by the fact that she worked directly with the army, which has not been the case with other folks that we have talked about. But some of the stuff she tried to do was really the opposite of assimilation, like trying to start that school. And I love the fact that when she was like, I don't have the money to build a school building, she was like, all right, we're building basically a brush arbor, and we will have school in the brush arbor, and that will be fine. Her focus there, I also thought, was the idea of having the students speak to her in their first language. And her translating that into English as a way of learning English, I thought was really interesting.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah, yeah. She. Her whole life feels like she walked that line in a way that is not easy to really define her role in either World.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. Yeah. It's one of the common themes of.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah. Which, you know, I, I understand the feelings on both sides of that equation.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. Yeah. I also, I think I've said before that, like, I am hard pressed to say what I would do in that situation, like if I were part of a culture that was being aggressively colonized.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

What decisions I would make, what I would think was the best thing to do to try to protect everyone. Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

I have no idea.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

There's a lot of interesting literary and sort of ethnography study of her book. We talk in the episode about how some people describe it as an autobiography, some as an ethnography. I actually read one paper that described it as a captivity narrative. And usually the term captivity narrative is used to describe white people's accounts of being held captive by an indigenous group.

[Holly Fry]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

But this person who had written this paper was talking about all the common themes about this idea that so often she and her people were being held captive. Another thing that jumped out to me is her, her discussion of her father's letter that he came back with after, after the Mexican American War and how he called it his rag friend, which that just charmed me.

[Holly Fry]

That phrase is good.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

But her description of it as a talking paper, the idea that paper and books and writing talk comes up a lot in books by people who were not literate at the time of what they're relating, but they have either become literate later or they have dictated an autobiography to somebody else. So it comes up a lot in things like slave narratives.

[Holly Fry]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Descriptions of like the talking book that somebody had an encounter with. Because until that moment, like, they, the. Their conception of language had not been quite the same. And so the idea that like this piece of paper containing written language was something that spoke comes up in a lot of different contexts.

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[Holly Fry]

Here's what's the most relatable about Sarah Winnemucca to me, and it has nothing to do with any of this. It's that she has this narrative of her life and that there are huge gap years in it.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

There's a bunch of gaps.

[Holly Fry]

Like, for anyone who's ever been like, I am going to consistently journal, you will be like, whoops, I've. The last time I wrote in this journal was 11 months ago. I'll pick it back up again. I'll do better this time. And then. And I just kept thinking about, even though I know this narrative is written in a different way and not necessarily as a journalist, but I just like, every time we would get to a point where it'd be like, then there's a gap of about a year before she did, I was like, oh, this is very relatable to me.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. Yeah. It also, it made the writing process of this episode a challenge because people who have really studied her book have cross referenced it with, like, other historical sources and have found that it aligns with things that are documented in other places, but it was also something that she was writing years or decades after things had happened. And so sometimes her timeline is, like, a little bit off. Sometimes she will say a specific year, and it's not the exact right year. So the things are happening in the right order, but the year that she says is not quite the same. And because my process of writing these episodes is that I have notes that I take from a lot of different sources, and I put these notes all into a document, and then I synthesized that into a new, original piece of writing. I. There were moments where I got so confused because I would have had a source that was like the actual verified year that something happened. And then I would have a piece from her autobiography that said a different year. And I would have a moment where I was like, wait, I thought she was in California now. Why is she in Nevada? And it's just like a year. Discrepancy between her writing and some other historical documentation and getting the stuff to be back in the right order was a challenge. Another challenge was the reservations that were part of this episode. People called them a lot of different names at the time.

[Holly Fry]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And some of them don't exist anymore. So there would be times that I was like, I'm not sure which reservation is being discussed right now.

[Holly Fry]

Mysteries. Mysteries.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. So the statue of her is at the capitol in Washington D.C. i have been to the Capitol. I don't think I have seen it in person. But the way that it is sculpted, her clothes, her garments are moving in a way that's really evocative to me.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah, I agree.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

It's also interesting in that the way it looks. It looks, it's like mixed media in terms of like the way her skin is represented. None of it is like true color, but it has like that bronze ish cast, whereas the rest of it looks like a duller tone, which is just interesting. It's an interesting choice.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. I will note, she does seem to have had terrible luck with men.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

To our knowledge, she never had any children, but she did have several marriages and they all seem to have been pretty short lived and not particularly happy. And a couple of the people who's writing about her, I read, speculated about how she wound up in a series of marriages that were not great. But it's all 100% speculation. We have zero commentary from her about that. And in some cases she didn't mention a marriage at all in her own writing, unless I missed it, even though it chronologically had already happened. She doesn't talk about her father's death in her book. I went back to go try to figure that out because I felt like we say that her father died and then we don't really say anything further about it. It did happen chronologically during the period that her book covers, but only barely.

[Holly Fry]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And if she had tried to talk about it in detail, it would have kind of derailed the thing that she was really ending on, which was the situation that the Northern Paiute were in right now and what had happened with the Secretary of the Interior and all of the unfulfilled promises around that. So it is possible that she did include something about his death that just didn't stick in my memory, but when I went back for it, I was like, no, I really don't see it here. Yeah. So whatever's happening this weekend for folks, I hope it's going really well for you. I can't remember exactly when this episode is coming out, except that it's the 29th of November, which I think will. I think today is the day after Thanksgiving. If people are listening to this episode on when it comes out, maybe that sounds right. If so, you know, if this is a holiday you celebrate, I hope you are just having a great time with as many leftovers as you want.

[Holly Fry]

Oh my gosh. Put them all in the waffle iron. Every one of them.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. So we'll be back with a Saturday classic tomorrow and something brand new on Monday. Stuff youf Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Here's to the season. From hanging ornaments in matching pajamas to building gingerbread houses with extra icing and staying up late to wrap gifts and watch movies, these traditions make the holidays truly special. And through it all, the Chinet brand is there to share in the joy. With the Chinat Crystal Collection, holiday tables are perfectly coordinated, allowing for excellence with less cleanup so everyone can focus on what really matters. Here's to the traditions that bring everyone together year after year. Here's to us, all of us. Find a local [e-mail] do you like podcasts, music and audiobooks? Because when you subscribe to Amazon Music Unlimited, you get all three in one app. Imagine listening to your favorite podcasts and music on the Go to work, school, the gym, or better yet, vacation. Now imagine being on vacation with your favorite audiobook from Audible and then listening to a new one every month from a huge selection of popular titles. That sounds like a pretty good vacation, right? Audible is now included on Amazon Music Unlimited. Download the Amazon Music app now to start listening terms apply. Hey, come on in.

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[Tracy V. Wilson]

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