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- [00:00]
Narrator
See Gladiator 2 only in theaters November 22nd. This film delivers action, an emotional and compelling story, and performances and spectacle on a scale unlike anything else. Gladiator 2 stands out with its immersive visuals and a gripping, character driven narrative. The film stars an extraordinary cast including Paul Mezcal, Pedro Pascal, Denzel Washington and Connie Nielsen. Reprising her role as Lucilla, get ready for an epic experience made for the big screen. Gladiator 2 only in theaters on November.
- [00:30]
Tracy V. Wilson
22Nd here's to Turkey Day, the favorite day of the year for many. From cozying up by the fire to watch the parade to gathering in the kitchen to whip up casseroles, it's a time of joy and togetherness. And here's to the Chinette brand for making it all a little easier with the Chinat Classic collection. No need to worry about cleanup. Plus, Chinat Classic plates and bowls are compostable, helping not just to keep the sink clean but also leaving less of a mess for future generations. So here's to being together. Together. Here's to us. All of us. Find a local retailer@mychinet.com what does every.
- [01:06]
Holly Fry
Grocery store aisle now have in common? Products that come in paper packaging, and not just the obvious ones like cereal boxes and juice cartons. From beauty products to boxed water, there are more opportunities to go papertarian than ever before. So why should you? Because paper comes from a renewable resource and can be recycled up to seven times. Simply put, it's the smart choice for the environment and it turns out, the easiest choice for you. Learn more@howlifeunfolds.com Papertarium this episode is brought.
- [01:36]
Toby Ball
To you by Bleecker street and their new film, the Return, the exhilarating finale to the Odyssey. Arriving home decades after leaving for the Trojan War, Odysseus is haggard and unrecognizable as his wife, Penelope is hounded by suitors vying to be king. He must rediscover the warrior within to win back all that he has lost. Ralph Fiennes and Juliette Binoche shine in what the Daily Beast calls a thrilling, terrifying take on the Odyssey. The return, in theaters December 6th.
- [02:05]
Tracy V. Wilson
Do you like podcasts, music and audiobooks? Because when you subscribe to Amazon Music Unlimited, you get all three in one app. Imagine listening to your favorite podcasts and music on the go to work, school, the gym, or better yet, vacation. Now imagine being on vacation with your favorite audiobook from Audible and then listening to a new one every month from a huge selection of popular titles. That sounds like a pretty Good vacation, right? Audible is now included on Amazon Music Unlimited. Download the Amazon Music app now to start. Listening Terms apply.
- [02:40]
Holly Fry
Welcome to Stuff youf Missed in History Class, a production of iHeartRadio.
- [02:51]
Tracy V. Wilson
Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Tracy V. Wilson.
- [02:55]
Holly Fry
And I'm Holly Fry.
- [02:56]
Tracy V. Wilson
I got to talk to Toby Ball recently. That's the creator and host of the podcast Rip Current. Rip Current explores the story of the two assassination attempts that were carried out against President Gerald Ford. Those took place less than three weeks apart in 1975.
- [03:16]
Holly Fry
The first assassination attempt was carried out by Lynette Fromme, also known as Squeaky, who was already infamous because of her involvement with the Manson family. The other was by Sarah Jane Moore, who had become an FBI informant and is most known today for this assassination attempt.
- [03:34]
Tracy V. Wilson
Our interview talks a bit about these two women and some parallels and what led each of them to try to assassinate Gerald Ford. But it's also really about what goes into creating a podcast like this, which incorporates a lot of things like interviews and archival footage. So we'll get to it. Hi, Toby. Welcome to the show.
- [03:56]
Toby Ball
Thanks for having me.
- [03:57]
Tracy V. Wilson
Can you just start off telling me a little bit about your background?
- [04:02]
Toby Ball
Sure. So I've sort of been a jack of all trades, master of none. I started off working at a magazine. I worked at a couple of universities. I've taught high school. I worked at our state Humanities Council. And then I started getting into podcasting about 10 years ago. I'm on a panel discussion that's still going on, sort of reviews, True Crime podcast, and television. And then about five or six years ago, I had been reviewing so many podcasts that I thought maybe I should actually try and make one and see what that was all about and sort of the decisions you have to make and the. The issues run into. And so I did. And that ended up being the first season of Strange Arrivals, which is a sort of a skeptical look at belief in UFOs. I did three seasons of that, and that's an iHeart podcast. And about two years ago, started working on the podcast I'm here to talk about called Rip Current, which was sort of more kind of up my alley and in my area of interest.
- [05:14]
Tracy V. Wilson
Okay. So I'd like our listeners to have sort of a sense of the show that we're talking about. So we are going to play the trailer for it right here.
- [05:25]
Toby Ball
This summer. A lone gunman on a rooftop reminded us that American presidents have long been the targets of assassins. Nearly 50 years ago, President Gerald Ford faced two attempts on his life in less than three weeks. September 5, 1975, Sacramento, California. In a crowd outside the Capitol building, a woman pulls a gun on President Ford.
- [05:53]
Tracy V. Wilson
President Gerald R. Ford came stunningly close.
- [05:56]
Toby Ball
To being the victim of an assassin today. A woman dressed in a long red.
- [06:00]
Tracy V. Wilson
Skirt pointed a 45 caliber pistol at the President. And I saw a woman start to go down and her arm go back and I saw the gun.
- [06:08]
Toby Ball
September 22, San Francisco. On the steps of the St. Francis Hotel, another woman tries to kill the President. A woman fired a shot at President Ford in San Francisco this afternoon. She was right at the front of the robe and 40ft away when he walked out. The President waved to the crowds and.
- [06:28]
Tracy V. Wilson
They had cheered him.
- [06:29]
Toby Ball
And that's when it happened. I yelled, the has got a gun. In 250 years of US history, these are the only two times we know of that a woman has tried to assassinate a sitting president. The two events were separated by 17 days and less than 90 miles. And the two assassins had never met. One was the protege of infamous cult leader Charles manson. She is 26 year old Lynette Alice Fromm, nicknamed Squeaky. I always felt like Lynette was kind.
- [07:03]
Tracy V. Wilson
Of his right hand woman. What kind of guy was Charlie?
- [07:07]
Toby Ball
He's a good person, very good person. Got out of peace. The other, a middle aged housewife. An aspiring radical working undercover for the FBI in the violent revolutionary underground.
- [07:20]
Tracy V. Wilson
Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore, in her 40s.
- [07:24]
Toby Ball
Because she didn't look like a radical, she could enter into these areas that other people couldn't. A spy. Basically. I was the person and the intent was exactly as I stated in court, to willfully and knowingly assassinate Gerald Offor, the President of the United States. This season on the podcast RIP Current, we ask why these women? She was a gentle, quiet, I thought, peace loving girl. Why did they want to kill President Ford?
- [07:56]
Tracy V. Wilson
Being the appointee of President Nixon, it's understandable to me that in their minds.
- [08:00]
Toby Ball
He should also be the object of their hatred. And why this time, this place?
- [08:05]
Tracy V. Wilson
One does not have to condone everything in Haight Ashbury to know that it exists.
- [08:11]
Toby Ball
Back then there were, there were lots of communes, there were lots of guru varieties.
- [08:16]
Tracy V. Wilson
Manson told his followers that this would be a bloodbath in the streets of every American city. What starts as a hippie love cult transmogrified into a violent criminal enterprise.
- [08:26]
Toby Ball
Five persons, including actress Sharon Tate, were found dead. We realized that we were dealing with.
- [08:32]
Tracy V. Wilson
Very violent underground groups.
- [08:34]
Narrator
All corporate enemies of the people will.
- [08:36]
Tracy V. Wilson
Be shot on site at any Time and at any place.
- [08:40]
Toby Ball
The goals were anarchy.
- [08:42]
Tracy V. Wilson
Out of anarchy, the revolution.
- [08:44]
Toby Ball
Revolutionary groups would get their power. The bloodiest and most massive gun battle.
- [08:48]
Tracy V. Wilson
In the history of Los Angeles.
- [08:50]
Toby Ball
Random violence, political violence. There was just no let up. Death to the fascist insect that preys.
- [08:57]
Tracy V. Wilson
Upon the life of the people.
- [08:58]
Toby Ball
These people aren't just a bunch of nuts. They're perfectly willing to die for what.
- [09:04]
Tracy V. Wilson
They'Re doing someplace else. That would have been like a big deal, but not in California.
- [09:10]
Toby Ball
The story of one strange and violent summer this season on RIP Current.
- [09:17]
Tracy V. Wilson
So tell me, what drew you to this particular story?
- [09:22]
Toby Ball
So I was doing some research. I wanted to do something about, you know, radicalism. I was looking at the 1970s, I was doing a lot of research, and I ran across the story of Sarah Jane Moore, who I'm sure we're about to talk more about. She's just a very interesting story. And then doing that research, found out that she was actually the second person to try and assassinate Gerald Ford in September of 1975. And the first person was a woman named Lynette Fromme, better known as Squeaky Fromm, who was one of Charles Manson's followers. And in fact, those are the only two women who have ever tried to assassinate a sitting US President as far as we know. So starting with that seemed like a quirk of history. So started doing some more research into them and trying to find out are there commonalities between their two stories, like why in 250 years of US history are there only two times that a woman has tried to assassinate a president? And why was it 17 days apart in September of 1975? So I had sort of these questions. I wasn't sure if there was going to be sort of a satisfactory answer. Right. It could just be a complete quirk or one could have been inspired by the other. But the more I kind of dug into it, the more sort of patterns sort of emerged and things commonalities you could find, even though it wasn't. They didn't follow exactly the same path. There was enough that was common in their situations and then also some other people who are sort of tangentially involved in the story.
- [11:14]
Tracy V. Wilson
So one of the things that really has stood out to me in the episodes that I've listened to, which are the ones that are publicly available as of when we are recording this, is that you have really gone deep into the background on both of them. So the first several episodes we've got a lot of context, setting about the Manson family to give all the detail of sort of how Lynette Fromme got to where she was. Same thing with the episodes that get into the background involving things like the Sambanese Liberation army and the SLA kidnapping of Patty Hearst. Kind of telling the story of how Sarah Jane Moore got to where she was. How did you decide how much background you wanted to include on these two women and the other organizations and other movements that they were connected to?
- [12:11]
Toby Ball
That's actually the stuff that I found most interesting when I was doing the research. I sort of feel like my sort of modus operandi is, what am I finding really interesting? And can I sort of maximize that as I'm telling this story? And in fact, the actual assassination attempts themselves are interesting, and especially Sarah Jane Moore's is sort of suspenseful, but that's just a very small part of the story. The real story to me is, how did they get to this point? Right. And then by going through the research, I sort of developed this theory is probably too strong a word, but sort of recognized sort of this pattern that was occurring with them. And I wanted to kind of demonstrate how, despite the fact that their lives were quite different in a lot of ways, and especially the details, they sort of unfolded in a sort of generally similar way. And that. That might in some way have led them to taking this sort of very strong, probably irrational action, which is trying to kill the president. So, as far as Lynette Fromme goes, you know, her story is really about being with Charles Manson. And then when Charles Manson goes to prison, she still remains sort of very devoted to him. And so she tries to help him while she's outside and he's inside prison. And she's in this very strange situation where she's famous. You know, people know who she is, but that doesn't really help her in any way. It actually hinders her. Like, nobody's gonna hire her to work. She really lives on the fringes up until the time that she takes a shot at Ford with Sarah Jane Moore. Sort of the crux of her story, in my mind, is a woman who's lived this fairly, you know, from a distance, looks very conventional. Life of. She was married and divorced several times, but, you know, she was. She was married to a couple of military men. She was married to a Hollywood sound designer. She was married to a doctor. So this was kind of her life beforehand. And then she goes through a series of events having to do with Patty Hearst's kidnapping. She becomes an underground informant for the FBI in the radical scene in the Bay Area in 1974. And 1975. So she goes from this very well off conventional lifestyle to suddenly being in the midst of really the furthest reaches of violent radical groups. And so that was why sort of diving into the Simeon Liberation Army. We probably haven't gotten to tribal thumb yet.
- [15:19]
Tracy V. Wilson
No.
- [15:21]
Toby Ball
Or some of these other smaller groups that she interacts with. And her story is really one of feeling increasing pressure on her, feeling increasingly in danger as the months go on and she gets further and further sort of ensconced in this atmosphere. So some of it's set up to sort of tell these stories, but it's also. I just found it really interesting in and of itself, especially Bay Area middle 70s. It's sort of the last vestiges of 60s radicalism. And you have these very small groups with these very big plans about overthrowing the government, but without really much of a plan to do it. I mean, I don't know how you overthrow the government with 12 or 15 people. So anyway, that was kind of what I thought was really interesting and might have some parallels to stuff that's going on now.
- [16:26]
Tracy V. Wilson
Yeah. And you also talk a lot about the idea of middle America and how middle America was responding to what was happening with all the radicals in the Bay Area and the climate, like the political climate of the day, which that's the year that I was born. So I have no memory of it personally, but there are definitely elements of it that I. I'm like, this feels very comparable to things that happen now regarding sort of what you think of as the mainstream reacting to what the mainstream considers to be a fringe element, with some of those fringe elements later becoming like more of a mainstream thought. Like some of the things that were that you talked about in terms of Squeaky fr's activism were about climate and what was happening to the planet. And I think the perception of people who are looking at the climate in 1975 versus today, like there are some parallels and some dissimilarities. And so I thought those were all really interesting things to talk about in your show also.
- [17:32]
Toby Ball
Yeah. So it's funny because when Lynette Fromme and her sort of best friend, this woman, Sandra Good, who is also a Manson follower, move to Sacramento, they catch this sort of environmentalism bug. But the way two former Manson girls approach environmentalism is to send threatening letters to CEOs of companies and government officials who oversee the maintenance of wilderness areas, particularly in California. So they become very concerned. They're both sort of interacting with the local press. Instead of giving them press releases, they send These threatening letters. At the time, Lynette and Sandra are sort of dressing in these weird outfits which are sort of these long gowns with these. I don't know how to describe them other than as sort of like deflated witches hats where they would be like tall coned hats, except there's nothing holding the cone up, so it just kind of flops over to the side. And Lynette would wear red and Sandra would wear blue. And they. You know, even in 1974, 1975, they look very distinct. They don't look like anybody else. And at one point, they go to San Francisco and they go to Berkeley and they go to the offices of CEOs and try and get meetings with them dressed like this. I mean, it's very strange. And I think, you know, people didn't know really what to make of it and whether to take them seriously. After Lynette tries to shoot forward and gets arrested, Sandra Good ends up being interviewed quite a bit. And she's talking about how they're part of this organization, which is completely fictional, called the International People's Court of Retribution that was going to carry out, you know, hundreds of assassinations around the world to save the environment. So it's really. It's pretty. It's pretty strange. Crazy stuff.
- [19:55]
Holly Fry
Yeah.
- [19:56]
Tracy V. Wilson
Listening to the, like, audio from interviews where she is being asked one question and the answers are not answers to that question. They are answers about the environment and what's happening to the planet. And the whole time I was. I was like, this is. This is wild. Like, it goes much farther than hearing somebody spin an answer into the direction. It's just answering a totally different question.
- [20:24]
Toby Ball
And just very aggressively, too. Right. She's this very antagonistic. In one of the episodes, we play sort of. Sort of an extended bit of an interview that Sandra does just a few days after the assassination attempt with the Canadian Broadcasting Company with this very sort of nice professional reporter. And Sandra just, you know, she's just clearly so angry and just wants to sort of take a bite out of this woman who's trying to get sort of the information that you'd expect a reporter to get. And Sandra just doesn't have any time for it.
- [21:02]
Tracy V. Wilson
Yeah.
- [21:06]
Narrator
See Gladiator 2 only in theaters November 22nd. This film delivers thrilling action, a compelling story, emotionally charged performances and spectacle on a scale unlike anything else. Only Ridley Scott could pull off a cinematic marvel at this scale. With sweeping storytelling and relentless action, Gladiator 2 stands out in the modern cinematic landscape with its immersive visuals, incredible score and a gripping, character driven narrative. The film stars an extraordinary cast including Paul Mezcal, Pedro Pascal with Denzel Washington and Connie Nielsen reprising her role as Lucilla. The fate of Rome rests on an uneasy alliance between Lucius and Macrinus who need each other to further their ambitions. Gladiator 2 is a complex political chess game, action packed revenge story with a beating emotional core. You will be on the edge of your seat as you experience the unexpected twists and turns throughout the film. Get ready for an epic, immersive, visceral experience made for the big screen. See Gladiator 2 only in theaters on November 22nd. Don't miss it. Hey, it's Austin James. If you're like me, trying to live your best life while living with diabetes, you can relate to worrying if you're doing a good job managing your diabetes. I use the freestyle Libre 3 Plus sensor to get real time glucose readings and see the impact of every meal and activity to make better decisions. The freestyle Libre 3 Plus sensor can help me live life with diabetes on my own terms and it gives me more time for the things I love like being a dad and a musician. Now this is progress. Learn more at Freestyle Lead for Prescription.
- [22:32]
Toby Ball
Only safety info found @freestylelibre us.
- [22:36]
Tracy V. Wilson
Do you like podcasts, music and audiobooks? Because when you subscribe to Amazon Music Unlimited you get all three in one app. Imagine listening to your favorite podcasts and music on the go to work, school, the gym, or better yet, vacation. Now imagine being on vacation with your favorite audiobook from Audible and then listening to a new one every month from a huge selection of popular titles. That sounds like a pretty good vacation, right? Audible is now included on Amazon Music Unlimited. Download the Amazon Music app now to start listening terms Apply Wow.
- [23:12]
Toby Ball
What is this place?
- [23:13]
Holly Fry
Welcome to Cloud 9. How exactly did I get here? You're a Toyota Crown driver and only Crown drivers ever reach this level of pure bliss. The refined but elegant design makes you sit up a little straighter. It gives you a rush of confidence as soon as you're behind the wheel and a feeling of all eyes on you. That's how the Crown transports you here. It's pretty awesome, right?
- [23:36]
Toby Ball
The captivating Toyota Crown Family Toyota let's go Places.
- [23:41]
Holly Fry
If you use paper, you're a human, but if you choose paper, you're a papertarian. Someone who lives a paper based lifestyle because it has a positive impact on the planet and also because it's the easiest choice you'll make all day. Seriously, it's as easy as reaching for boxed instead of bottled water. It's as easy as opting for beauty products that come in paper packaging. It's as easy as grabbing eggs in a cardboard container. And that's all in one trip to the grocery store. Which, if everyone's being honest, you were planning to go to anyway. But paper isn't just an easy choice. Papertarians know that. It's the smart choice too, because paper comes from trees, a renewable and sustainably managed resource, and paper products are designed to be recycled. In fact, when you choose products that come in paper based packag, those fibers can go on to be recycled up to seven times. So why wouldn't you go papertarian? Learn more@howlifeunfolds.com paperTarian.
- [24:48]
Tracy V. Wilson
So your podcast Rip Current is radically different from Stuffy Myths. In history class we have a show, it's Holly and me most of the time. Sometimes we have a guest, but like it's each of us, we are talking into the microphone and we are usually telling a pretty linear story that has a beginning and a middle and an end in most cases. And Rip Current is very different. You've got all of these interviews and clips of audio, or you know, the audio from video footage from the time and in some cases reenactments. Tell me more about the process of what it takes to go through all of that and put it together into an episode of a podcast.
- [25:31]
Toby Ball
That's an interesting question. The way it worked, I guess it's worked with all the sort of podcasts like this. I've done limited series. It's really I do a lot of research before I even start working on scripts and things like that. And so it's some of it's sort of what you would consider, I think, more traditional research. I go through newspapers that were current at the time, books that have been written about the subjects, court documents, things like that. And then I try and identify people who would have some insight or some firsthand knowledge. So in the case of Ripcurrent, especially about Lynette Fromme, there's been a bunch of books written about her and Charles Manson and that whole thing. So identifying authors who I could talk to either generally about what was happening in her life or about specific little bits. And so there's a bunch of author interviews. And then as far as sourcing sort of archival audio, you know, it's just a lot of web searching, to be honest with you. It's finding what's available out there. As I kind of went through the process, I got a little bit better about finding where Things might be. There are universities that have collections of local news broadcasts. At times, San Francisco State University was a place that I. I got a lot of stuff from some State History Museums, archive.org, which, as a recording, has been taken down.
- [27:17]
Tracy V. Wilson
I'm so upset about it.
- [27:18]
Toby Ball
Yeah, I know.
- [27:19]
Tracy V. Wilson
We just talked about it in our behind the scenes that I. Oh, you did? Yeah. I think it will have come out before this episode comes out because archive.org is a major part of our research also.
- [27:29]
Toby Ball
Yeah, hopefully that comes back up. I think there's a lot of podcasters who are sweating it out. Yeah. So I spent a lot of time listening to three hours of a Pacifica radio broadcast from 1975 to try and find little clips that are contemporaneous about the events that I'm covering or about some of the people or sort of explaining how things were thought of at the time that we're talking about. So I guess that's kind of the process. And then I end up. I'm kind of old school in the way. I mean, people aren't going to be able to see it, but I'm holding up. I use index cards and I take notes on index cards and then sort them into piles about which notes go with which episode. And then I take from transcripts of interviews, transcripts from audio notes I've taken from written sources, and kind of sort of place them in an order that seems to make sense in a script, and then write narrative to kind of tie everything together and explain the things I want to explain and set things up. So that's kind of the process. I've never really tried to explain it before, actually, but I think that's kind of what I go through.
- [28:48]
Tracy V. Wilson
Index cards sorted into piles was my way of structuring writing for a long time before. Before, like, word processing software really got to the point that you could just move things around with the mouse, which has become how I do that kind of a thing now. So, yeah, that's a blast of nostalgia.
- [29:10]
Toby Ball
Yes. I've got colored note cards, too. So there's green for one thing, pink for another, orange for another.
- [29:17]
Tracy V. Wilson
Nice.
- [29:18]
Toby Ball
It's. It's definitely sort of seventh grade stuff.
- [29:22]
Tracy V. Wilson
So, like, how many people does it take to then craft that into an episode of the podcast? Because I know there are three producers from iHeart that are credited on the podcast, but I don't have a sense of, like, what each of them do on the show.
- [29:34]
Toby Ball
Sure. So I write all the scripts, I record voiceover and send it to them, and then there's an executive producer and then three other producers. And so there's a couple of rounds of putting things together. That's what they call the dry pass or the dry cut, which is without any sort of sound design behind it. It's just each piece of spoken or archival audio placed in the right places. And you kind of listen. You say, separate these a little bit. This looked great on paper. It doesn't sound so good when you're listening to it on tape. And then the second pass is where they take the musical score, or if you're gonna add sort of, you know, sound effects, which we don't really do very much, and you add that in to sort of create the tone and feel of the program. You know, add, you know, suspenseful music where it should be, propulsive music where it should be, things like that. And that's each of the three producers would kind of take. There's going to be 12 episodes and then seven, I guess, bonus episodes. So they get split up among the producers, and they take a certain amount, so they're sort of responsible for both mixes. And then they pass it on to an executive producer who does sort of the final mix and quality assurance and all that.
- [31:04]
Tracy V. Wilson
One of the things that you encountered while working on this was a news organization that did not allow footage of the reporters to be reused. Can you tell me a little bit about that and how you wound up recording instead reenactments of that?
- [31:22]
Toby Ball
One of the television stations in Sacramento, which is owned by a huge news organization, they, you know, you can find on YouTube if you just search on squeaky from Ford assassination news coverage or whatever, you can find it all on YouTube. But they don't license if any of their actual reporters are talking. And they had this really, really interesting piece of a reporter who goes to. When Lynette Fromm and Sandra Good move to Sacramento and it becomes known, she's like, well, I'll just go and see what they're up to. So she goes to their house and sort of interviews them and stuff. You don't see that. But after the assassination attempt, she's on the set of the newscast, and she just kind of talks about her experience going in there and what they were like and what their apartment was like and stuff like that, but in a very sort of conversational, not very newsy way. And, you know, when we were putting together an early version of the episode, we. We cut the stuff we wanted in there to see how it sounded. Sounded. Sounded great. But, you know, through multiple email exchanges, the, you Know, the parent company was just not going to budge. So it kind of. It came down to we were trying to figure out, is this something that we can just let. Let go. But we thought it was. It really gave the best picture of what Lynette's life was like at the time, right before she made the assassination attempt. So then it was, do we want me just sort of summarizing what she said as sort of the omniscient narrator, or do we want to bring in an actor to sort of, you know, basically read from the transcript? You know, but in a way that is a little more immersive than my, like, struggling not to do a monotone. And so that's what we ended up doing. And it kind of felt like as long as we're upfront about the fact that this isn't actually that piece of footage, but that we have an actor reading from the transcript and that we're doing it for this reason, which is we can't get the rights, but we still feel like it's important. Yeah. So that was sort of the process there. It was. It was. It's frustrating. It's always kind of interesting what rights you can get and what rights you can't because it's not always intuitive.
- [33:57]
Tracy V. Wilson
I wonder if that had anything to do with like, likeness rights for the reporter and whether it just wasn't something somebody foresaw in that Reporter's contract in 1975, that one day there might be a podcast that would.
- [34:13]
Toby Ball
Right.
- [34:13]
Tracy V. Wilson
Want to use the audio for something? That's the explanation I can think of. Anyway, let's take one more quick break and then we'll be back to talk a little bit more about the show.
- [34:28]
Narrator
See Gladiator 2 only in theaters November 22nd. This film delivers thrilling action, a compelling story, emotionally charged performances and spectacle on a scale unlike anything else. Only Ridley Scott could pull off a cinematic marvel at this scale. With sweeping storytelling and relentless action, Gladiator 2 stands out in the modern cinematic landscape. With its immersive visuals, incredible score and a gripping character driven narrative. The film stars an extraordinary cast including Paul Mezcal, Pedro Pascal, with Denzel Washington and Connie Nielsen reprising her role as Lucilla. The fate of Rome rests on an uneasy alliance between Lucius and Macrinus who need each other to further their ambitions. Gladiator 2 is a complex political chess game, action packed revenge story with a beating emotional core. You will be on the edge of your seat as you experience the unexpected twists and turns throughout the film. Get ready for an epic immersive visceral experience made for the big screen. See Gladiator 2 only in theaters on November 22nd. Don't miss it. Hey, it's Austin James. If you're like me, trying to live your best life while living with diabetes, you can relate to worrying if you're doing a good job managing your diabetes. I use the Freestyle Libre 3 Plus sensor to get real time glucose readings and see the impact of every meal and activity to make better decisions. The Freestyle Libre 3 sensor can help me live life with diabetes on my own terms and it gives me more time for the things I love, like being a dad and a musician. Now this is progress. Learn more at FreeStyleLibre US.
- [35:54]
Toby Ball
For prescription only safety info found at FreeStyleLibre US.
- [35:59]
Tracy V. Wilson
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- [36:34]
Toby Ball
What is this place?
- [36:36]
Holly Fry
Welcome to Cloud 9. How exactly did I get here? You're a Toyota Crown driver, and only Crown drivers ever reach this level of pure bliss. The refined but elegant design makes you sit up a little straighter. It gives you a rush of confidence as soon as you're behind the wheel and a feeling of all eyes on you. That's how the Crown transports you here. It's pretty awesome, right?
- [36:59]
Toby Ball
The captivating Toyota Crown family Toyota let's go Places.
- [37:04]
Holly Fry
If you use paper, you're a human. But if you choose paper, you're a papertarian, someone who lives a paper based lifestyle because it has a positive impact on the planet and also because it's the easiest choice you'll make all day. Seriously, it's as easy as reaching for boxed instead of bottled water. It's as easy as opting for beauty products that come in paper packaging. It's as easy as grabbing eggs in a cardboard container. And that's all in one trip to the groc store, which, if everyone's being honest, you were planning to go to anyway. But paper isn't just an easy choice. Papertarians know that. It's the smart choice too, because paper comes from trees, a renewable and sustainably managed resource, and paper products are designed to be recycled. In fact, when you choose products that come in paper based packaging, those fibers can go on to be recycled up to seven times. So why wouldn't you go Papertarian? Learn more at howlifeunfolds.com Papertarian.
- [38:10]
Tracy V. Wilson
So earlier today I was listening to the seventh episode of the podcast and there was an incident in which Sarah Jane Moore, what, did not have ID with her but did have several pictures of herself. And it's obvious from the context, the description of that, that at the time, that was weird to not have your ID and also to have several pictures of yourself just on you. And what really hit me in that moment was that today a lot of us are walking around with a phone full of selfies. It's very normal to just have a bunch of pictures of yourself on you at all times. Are there things that similarly really stuck out to you in terms of differences in day to day living between what was happening in this period that you are reporting on, on this podcast and now that's interesting.
- [39:07]
Toby Ball
I guess what kind of struck me is how much more connected we are or potentially connected we are with everybody all the time that we want to talk to now that everybody's walking around with cell phones. Because a fair amount of what's going on in San Francisco at the time, sometimes the communication is done literally through the letters page of a newspaper. Right? There's no way to get a message to somebody physically. When everybody's underground and people are suspicious of each other and they think there may be FBI plants and stuff, suddenly communication becomes very, very difficult. So that was one thing. It's a really interesting question. I just kind of feel like now somebody like Lynette Fromme would be in the news on cable TV all the time if she had been involved in something. I mean, she wasn't amongst the people who committed the Charles Manson associated murders, but she was a very well known, high profile member of his group. And the idea that, you know, she basically goes off the grid, like people don't really know much about what's going on with her and she's kind of involved in these sort of sketchy dealings and every once in a while she'll kind of pop up in the newspaper for something that she's, she's involved in. But for the most part she just kind of lives her life and there's no, there's one of the controversies that comes out of her assassination attempt is that there wasn't any real security. She wasn't considered a security risk. Right? So there she wasn't put under surveillance. People didn't really know where she was. I mean, she wasn't trying to hide. Like, she showed up dressed in her red gown and funny red hat and I mean, she stuck out. Like if you look in the crowd in some of these pictures, it's like, oh, who's that? And it's Lynette Fromme and she's the one who's going to pull the trigger. But the just, you know, the heightened security awareness just kind of wasn't there. You know, there's that and then there's just the general sense at that time in California of the potential for violence. I don't think we've gotten to it yet in what's been released so far. But San Francisco was a very, very sort of violent city at that period of time, both because of radical groups, but just not coincidentally necessarily, but unconnected, is when the Zodiac murders were going on a thing called the Zebra murders, which were these apparently random, didn't turn out to be random murders that were being committed on the street. There was a lot of sort of anti police sentiment going around. And then Patty Hearst was missing. And that is sort of the thing that hangs over everything to do with Sarah Jane Moore and sort of the radical scene in the Bay Area is that this, you know, this Hearst heiress is missing. And it's sort of the biggest story in the country is like, can we find her? And all these groups that Sarah Jane Moore is associating with are at least in the eyes of sort of the establishments or law enforcement and journalism and such are connected to the Symbionese Liberation army, which is the group that has Patty Hearst. So they're under surveillance, the police raid places associated with them. Journalists get in touch with members of these groups, they get in touch with Sarah Jane Moore to see if she can provide information on where Patty Hearst is. So I guess those were the things that kind of kind of stood out to me. But again, I'm looking at this fairly narrow slice of sort of people living in sort of one extreme situation compared to most of what was going on in America.
- [43:25]
Tracy V. Wilson
So beyond that sort of then versus now, things that are different, what really surprised you as you were researching and working on this show?
- [43:37]
Toby Ball
So what I kind of came around to really focusing on was this idea that if you live sort of a conventional life and then under duress are suddenly given this whole new way of looking at things in a situation where you're probably in danger. It happens very, very fast. You don't really have sort of outside moderating influences around you. And what happens to somebody. And so that's what happened with Lynette Fromme. I mean, she essentially got kicked out of her house and left and very quickly ran into Charles Manson and jumped in his van and was part of his group. Sarah Jane Moore, like, volunteered for this thing that was associated with trying to get Patty Hearst released. Met up with these sort of Marxist prison radicals or former prison radicals. The FBI told her to go underground. So she became radicalized while she was in these groups. Like she considered herself sort of a revolutionary after a certain amount of time. She felt like her eyes had been open to the plight of black people at that time that she hadn't really taken in. And she was given sort of a framework with which to look at it both as it was and what could be done about it. She considered herself a Marxist or a Maoist. And then Patty Hearst herself. I mean, she was put in a closet for. For six weeks and sort of pilloried with the beliefs of the Simeon Liberation army, which were sort of a combination of sort of typical revolutionary Maoist ideas and then this other really bizarre sort of conspiracy stuff. But when she was finally given some freedom, she, whether it was a conscious decision or whether it was sort of coercive control, joined her captors, right? And she went in, she helped rob a bank. There's a famous picture of her holding a gun. So that was what I found really interesting was sort of that dynamic and how these people changed. They started off as one thing, went through this process of just rapid sort of under pressure change and came out as people who were willing to do things that you never would have imagined them being involved in prior to that change.
- [46:16]
Tracy V. Wilson
There is so much in the, you know, the episodes that I've listened to so far, so much little details that I really did not know that 1975 is a little more recent than what we normally talk about on our podcast. So it's because it's also a period where my life started. It was not a period when, like myself, school classes did not talk about the history from 1975 and later really at all until I got to college. And even then it was just the sketchiest little amount. So I did not know much detail about a lot of what was happening that you talk about in the podcast. So it's been all very interesting to listen to. I am hoping to keep on top of it. I tend to get very behind in my podcast listening very quickly. So as the subsequent episodes come out, there will be more of them out by the time time this interview comes out for our listeners than there are right now. So I am looking forward to listening to them. Is there anything that you think our listeners should absolutely know either about this podcast or about your work in general? Like what? Is there any particular thing that just folks you want them to be aware of or have in mind?
- [47:32]
Toby Ball
That's another good question that I probably should have given some thought to before we started this. Cause I ask it of people myself. It's not an original thought, but I think being able to look at sort of analogous or somewhat analogous times in history. And for me, it's not even necessarily what people do, but kind of the way they conceive of the situation that they're in and what sort of the possibilities are and what's realistic and what's not realistic. I mean, I think one of the things I found interesting, and I think this is true of the late 60s, or maybe even all the 60s as well, is this idea that you can take a look at our society and think about making major, major changes. Right? And I think that's, you know, that's. It probably started with the civil rights movement, and then people said, well, what else is out there that can make our country, you know, fundamentally fairer or more in line with what I believe? And the thoughts were big. The thoughts weren't, you know, let's mess with the tax code a little bit, you know, or do things like that. It was really like, can we remake our country in a way that sort of is more aligned with what we feel it should be like? And by the time we kind of jump into it in 1974, 1975, in sort of the radical scene, I mean, it's really kind of tailing off. So the people who are left, it's really sort of the most radical people, and there's just not many people out there. But I do spend some time talking about prison revolutionaries in California, which I think is, you know, the more I learned about that, I was like, wow, I could have just done a podcast on this. Because there was a sense that, especially for, you know, black men and Latinos and Native Americans as well, that prison is sort of an extreme example of what society is actually like. And so that, you know, you become radicalized and become a revolutionary in prison. And the idea is that is when you're released, you can bring the fight against the same sort of inequalities and oppressive systems that are very clear in prison, where you have warden and you have guards and you have, you know, things that you can and can't do. And then you go out into the world outside prison and you see the same structures and, you know, you want to address them. And that was how groups like the Simeon Liberation army or Tribal Thumb, which. There'll be stuff on them a little bit later in the season. They're really. They're run by guys who are prison revolutionaries, black men who come out and get largely young, white, sort of college age radicals to kind of follow along with them. And they sort of take in this way of looking at our society. Right. Is that it mirrors sort of the prison system and who has possibilities and things like that. So it's like a lot of words that I just said, which is saying that I'm certainly not advocating for anything that any of these people did in the podcast, because assassinating the president, I mean, these are violent groups that there sort of no hope. But I think the idea of, you know, looking at society in a way of can we make big changes to make things better for people? I guess that might have been actually the sort of what makes me interested in that era is that it just seemed like there was just a lot more sort of big thinking about those things. And sometimes the big thinking ended up in the civil rights movement with its like, absolutely positive outcomes. And then sometimes it's the Weathermen or something who just sort of had this nihilistic view about how you go about affecting that change.
- [51:51]
Tracy V. Wilson
So do you already know what your next project is after this one, or are you just trying to get this one out for everyone to hear?
- [52:01]
Toby Ball
It's funny that you mentioned that. I was actually just working on a proposal for. For the next project. And it's in sort of a similar vein of taking a look at another movement that was trying to make significant change, sort of against the tide of sort of public sentiment, but which in hindsight, in this particular case I'm looking at right now, I think it's kind of been borne out that people should have listened at the time. But yeah. So I'm sort of keeping with this sort of radical thought in action and trying to create a big difference even in a way, in this way it's, I think, a little bit less misguided.
- [52:44]
Tracy V. Wilson
Sure.
- [52:45]
Toby Ball
But the same sort of think big, I guess, is how to summarize it. Yeah.
- [52:51]
Tracy V. Wilson
Well, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me today.
- [52:55]
Toby Ball
Well, thank you.
- [52:57]
Tracy V. Wilson
Most of the episodes of this season of RIP Current will be out by the time this episode airs. So listeners, you can go find all of this to listen to in the. IHEARTRADIO app or wherever else you like to get your podcast. And you'll still have, I think, two or three more episodes to look forward to. That will be coming out after this one airs, but plenty to catch up on if you have not already. Thanks so much to Toby for talking to me. Rip Current is also co hosted by Mary Katherine Garrison, who played Squeaky Fromme in the original Broadway production of Stephen Sondheim's assassin. New episodes of Rip Current come out on Thursdays on the iHeartRadio app and anywhere else you like to get your podcasts. The whole entire limited series will be available just within a couple of weeks from when this episode is coming out.
- [53:49]
Holly Fry
And now do you have some listener mail?
- [53:51]
Tracy V. Wilson
I do have some listener mail. This is from Annette and Annette wrote to us with an update about William Marsh Rice, who, if you do not remember, we did an episode about the death of William Marsh Rice a couple of weeks ago and we talked about a statue of him that was on the campus at Rice University, which is named for him. So Annette wrote, hello Holly and Tracy. A couple of years ago I wrote to tell you that Rice University Task Force on Slavery, Segregation and Racial Injustice had been charged with, among many other things, deciding what to do with the statue of founder William Marsh Rice that was located central to the main campus quadrangle. They announced in February 2022 that the statue would be moved to the perimeter of the quadrangle as part of a design overhaul. In September 2024, the Academic Quadrangle was reopened after about 16 months of construction. The statue is now in a corner of the quadrangle near the first building on campus, Lovett hall and the welcome center, and the newest building on the quad, Sewell Hall. As the landscape architect said in their rededication ceremony, William Marsh Rice is essential to the Rice story, but not central to it. Rice's remains were reinterred in the Rice family plot at Glenwood Cemetery, a historic Houston cemetery. The statue is now at ground level rather than elevated on a high plinth. There's a sign with a QR code that links to information about Rice, including his connections to slavery. Unfortunately, it feels a bit labyrinthine, even using the QR code to get to the document that acknowledges Rice as an enslaver. The platform on which the plinth statue was on has been incorporated into the quad redesign as sort of a speaker's corner near the center of the quadrangle. By the platform is a quote from when John F. Kennedy gave his we chose to go to the moon speech on the rice campus in 1962. Quote we meet at a college noted for knowledge, in a city noted for progress, in a state noted for strength, and we stand in need of all three Sea Attached photos There are also some links about the redesign of the quad and Annette talks about being an alumnus of Rice and one of the many things about this whole thing, meaning that there will now be green space around the quad so that it will not be a heat island as it has been previously. Annette for Pet Tax Attached photos of Swirl, our border collie mix who crossed the Rainbow Bridge some time ago, and a pet portrait that was commissioned for them, which is very sweet. So yes, I've got some pictures here that I'm looking at that sort of show where the new location of the statue is, as well as the plinth that it used to stand on and oh what a sweet puppy dog. Sweet babies. And I love this pet portrait. It was commissioned from a photo. There's also a paw print impression. So sweet. Thank you so much Annette for this and for forwarding along your earlier email as part of it. I had not really kept up with any of the developments in that since we had done that episode a while back, so thank you so much for that. If you would like to send us a note about this or any other podcast, we're at history podcastiheartradio.com you can subscribe to the show on the iHeartRadio app and wherever else you like to get your podcasts. Stuff youf Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Here's to Turkey Day, the favorite day of the year for many. From cozying up by the fire to watch the parade to gathering in the kitchen to whip up casseroles. It's a time of joy and togetherness. And here's to the Chinette brand for making it all a little easier with the Chinette Classic collection. No need to worry about cleanup. Plus, Chinette Classic plates and bowls are compostable, helping not just to keep the sink clean but also leaving less of a mess for future generations. So here's to being together. Here's to us, all of us. Find a local retailer@mychinet.com See Gladiator 2.
- [58:17]
Narrator
Only in theaters November 22nd. This film delivers action, an emotional and compelling story, and performances in spectacle on a scale unlike anything else. Gladiator 2 stands out with its immersive visuals and a gripping, character driven narrative, the film stars an extraordinary cast including Paul Mezcal, Pedro Pascal, Denzel Washington and Connie Nielsen. Reprising her role as Lucilla, get ready for an epic experience made for the big screen. Gladiator 2 only in theaters on November 22nd.
- [58:46]
Tracy V. Wilson
This holiday season, surprise everyone on your list with the best gifts. Tickets to see their favorite artists live. Choose from thousands of concerts and comedy shows including Mariah Carey, Mary J. Blige, Matt Matthews, Metallica, Thomas Rhett, Trans Siberian Orchestra, Sarah Silverman and so many more. Share a memory together or give a gift they'll never forget. Find the most exciting gift for every fan@livenation.com gifts that's livenation.com gifts we've all.
- [59:17]
Narrator
Got a thing, an obsession. For some of us, it's vintage fashion.
- [59:21]
Tracy V. Wilson
Our cars, anything we can collect.
- [59:24]
Toby Ball
They all live under one roof.
- [59:26]
Tracy V. Wilson
EBay. It's where closets get filled with statement pieces and vintage finds, where must have.
- [59:31]
Narrator
Sneakers wait for you.
- [59:33]
Tracy V. Wilson
And designer handbags are the real deal on ebay. Doors open to stacks of the rarest trading cards and a garage stocked with all the car parts you need for any DIY job. EBay's home to whatever thing you're into that keeps you up at night.
- [59:48]
Toby Ball
EBay things people love.
- [59:51]
Tracy V. Wilson
You know that feeling of being in your zone when the world melts away? That's what driving the 2025 Toyota Crown family feels like. Both the sedan and the Crown Signia deliver a quiet, smooth ride with hybrid efficiency and all wheel drive confidence. Oh, and the design. I mean, so bold. Every drive in the Toyota Crown family is an experience that's captivating in every sense. Learn more@toyota.com toyotacrownfamily toyota let's go Places.