SYMHC Classics: Cecilia Payne-Gaposchkin

Summary

Stuff You Missed in History Class: SYMHC Classics – Cecilia Payne-Gaposchkin

Released on May 10, 2025, by iHeartPodcasts

Join hosts Tracy V. Wilson and Holly Fry as they delve deep into the remarkable life of Cecilia Payne-Gaposchkin, a pioneering astronomer whose groundbreaking discoveries revolutionized our understanding of the stars. This detailed summary captures the essence of their engaging discussion, enriched with notable quotes and timestamps for a comprehensive overview.

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Introduction

The episode kicks off with an intriguing recognition of Cecilia Payne-Gaposchkin's 125th birthday, highlighting her revolutionary contributions to astronomy. Tracy expresses her admiration for Cecilia, emphasizing both her scientific achievements and the resilience she exhibited in the face of societal biases.

"Cecilia made truly revolutionary discoveries about the chemical makeup of stars, and she's really one of my favorite people I've ever learned about on this show."
— Tracy V. Wilson [02:37]

Early Life and Family Background

Cecilia Payne was born on May 10, 1900, in Wendover, England, into a cultured middle-class family. Her father, Edward, was a barrister and historian, while her mother, Emma, was an artist. From a young age, Cecilia exhibited a profound curiosity and a keen intellect, nurtured by a home rich in music, art, and literature.

"When Cecilia asked for a bedtime story, her mother read her the Odyssey. When Emma decided Cecilia was too old for stories, Cecilia started by telling herself stories at bedtime before moving on to making up bedtime stories for her younger sister."
— Khloe Kardashian [05:30]

Educational Challenges and Determination

Tragedy struck early when Cecilia's father died unexpectedly when she was just four years old, leading to financial strains that nonetheless did not dampen her mother's commitment to providing a culturally rich upbringing. Despite these challenges, Cecilia's academic journey was fraught with obstacles, particularly due to the societal norms that devalued girls' education.

At the parochial St. Mary's School in London, Cecilia faced an education system that was rigid and unaccommodating. Her exceptional academic performance was met with suspicion rather than praise, and the curriculum heavily focused on reading and writing rather than the sciences she was passionate about.

"Cecilia was really bright and driven to learn, when she started school, she had some struggles... So she taught herself to be more ambidextrous and to do things like write upside down using techniques and exercises from a pamphlet that her great grandfather had written."
— Tracy V. Wilson [06:42]

Determined to pursue her interests in science, Cecilia took it upon herself to bridge the gaps in her education. She painstakingly translated a botany book from German and French into English using a dictionary she obtained from school, showcasing her resourcefulness and unwavering dedication.

Transition to St. Paul's Girls School

After being expelled from St. Mary's at 17 due to her relentless pursuit of scientific knowledge, Cecilia was recommended to St. Paul's Girls School, which offered a more academically rigorous environment. There, she finally found the encouragement she needed to excel in her scientific endeavors.

"Cecilia was absolutely captivated by this lecture. She later wrote, 'the result was a complete transformation of my world picture.'"
— Tracy V. Wilson [19:09]

Cambridge University and Pioneering Discoveries

Cecilia's academic journey led her to Newnham College at the University of Cambridge in 1919, where she initially focused on botany, chemistry, and physics. However, a pivotal lecture by Arthur Stanley Eddington ignited her passion for astronomy. This momentous event led her to shift her focus towards astrophysics, despite the prevailing social and academic barriers.

At Cambridge, Cecilia employed innovative techniques to study stellar spectra, ultimately discovering that stars are composed primarily of hydrogen and helium—an assertion that contradicted the then-accepted theories of uniformity in stellar composition.

"There is no joy more intense than that of coming upon a fact that cannot be understood in terms of currently accepted ideas."
— Cecilia Payne-Gaposchkin [44:46]

Her thesis, though initially met with skepticism and the need to include a caveat questioning her conclusions to secure her PhD, was later hailed as one of the most brilliant in the field of astronomy.

Facing Sexism and Advocacy for Women in Science

Throughout her career, Cecilia contended with significant sexism. At Cambridge, women were required to sit separately and were often dismissed by their male counterparts. Despite these challenges, Cecilia persevered, earning recognition and pushing the boundaries for women in the scientific community.

"The completion of her PhD meant that Payne no longer had fellowship money to live off of. So she started looking for a job."
— Tracy V. Wilson [37:48]

Personal Life and Marriage

In 1934, Cecilia married Sergei Gaposchkin, a fellow astronomer who had fled Russia due to political turmoil. Their partnership was both personal and professional, as they collaborated on various research projects. Balancing family life with a demanding career, Cecilia continued to break societal norms by remaining in the workforce after marriage and while raising three children.

Academic Leadership and Legacy

Cecilia's dedication culminated in her becoming the first woman to earn a tenured professorship at Harvard University in 1956. She authored over 150 papers and several influential books, leaving a lasting impact on the field of astrophysics. Her work not only advanced scientific understanding but also paved the way for future generations of women in science.

"She would later say, 'As a warning to the young, if you are sure of your facts, you should defend your findings even with their downplaying.'"
— Tracy V. Wilson [35:53]

In recognition of her lifetime achievements, Cecilia was awarded the Henry Norris Russell Prize in 1976 by the American Astronomical Society, a testament to her enduring influence and groundbreaking work.

Conclusion and Legacy

Cecilia Payne-Gaposchkin passed away in 1979, leaving behind a storied legacy celebrated with portraits and scholarly acknowledgments. Her autobiography, The Dyer's Hand, along with other collected writings, continue to inspire and educate future astronomers.

"Nature has always had a trick of surprising us, and she will continue to surprise us, but she has never let us down yet. I love her."
— Cecilia Payne-Gaposchkin [44:46]

Tracy and Holly conclude the episode by reflecting on Cecilia's mysterious resurgence in listener interest, underscoring the timeless relevance of her contributions to science and society.

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Notable Quotes:

• "I shall never be lonely again. Now I can think about science."
  — Cecilia Payne-Gaposchkin [12:19]

• "There is no joy more intense than that of coming upon a fact that cannot be understood in terms of currently accepted ideas."
  — Cecilia Payne-Gaposchkin [44:46]

• "As a warning to the young, if you are sure of your facts, you should defend your findings even with their downplaying."
  — Cecilia Payne-Gaposchkin [35:53]

---

This episode of Stuff You Missed in History Class not only sheds light on Cecilia Payne-Gaposchkin's monumental achievements but also highlights the personal and professional hurdles she overcame, offering valuable insights into the struggles and triumphs of women in the sciences during her era.

Transcript

[Podcast Host]

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[Jay Shetty]

Podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. May is Mental Health Awareness Month and Talkspace, the leading virtual therapy provider, is telling everyone let's face it in therapy by talking or texting with a supportive licensed therapist at Talkspace, you can face whatever is holding you back, whether it's mental health symptoms, relationship drama, past trauma, bad habits or another challenge that you need support to work through. It's easy to sign up. Just go to talkspace.com and you'll be paired with a provider, typically within 48 hours. And because you'll meet your therapist online, you don't have to take time off work or arrange childcare. You'll meet on your schedule. Plus, Talkspace is in network with most major insurers and most insured members have a $0 copay. Make your mental health a priority and start today. If you're not covered by Insurance, get $80 off your first month with Talkspace when you go to talkspace.com and enter promo code SPACE80. That's S P A C E80. To match with a licensed therapist today, go to talkspace.com and Enter promo code SPACE80. Hey, I'm Jay Shetty and I'm the host of the On Purpose podcast and I'm excited for my next episode with Khloe Kardashian.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

God, I've been through so many things that at this point I would rather not feel than feel because feeling is too much for me to handle. I am Khloe Kardashian Khloe Kardashian, everybody.

[Khloe Kardashian]

Khloe Kardashian.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

No one understands how it's I'm just a TV show.

[Jay Shetty]

Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Happy Saturday, Cecilia Payne Later. Cecilia Payne gaposkin was born May 10, 1900, or 125 years ago today. If you're listening to this episode, on the day it comes out, she made truly revolutionary discoveries about the chemical makeup of stars, and she's really one of my favorite people I've ever learned about on this show.

[Khloe Kardashian]

Our episode on her originally came out on November 9, 2020. Enjoy. Welcome to Stuff youf Missed in History Class, a production of iHeartRadio.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Tracy V. Wilson.

[Khloe Kardashian]

And I'm Holly Fry.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

A couple of months ago, we got a pile of listener requests for an episode on Cecilia Payne Gaposchkin. She was an astronomer who made a lot of firsts, including being the first person to figure out that stars are made of mostly hydrogen and helium. Usually when we get a whole bunch of listener requests, one right after the other, I can figure out what prompted them. Like usually there was a Google doodle or there's a viral post that's circulating around this time. It was kind of a mystery because there is a new biography that came out earlier this year, which is Donovan Moore's what Stars Are Made of, which is beautiful. I recommend it. And there have been some viral posts, but none of this lined up with when we got this pile of requests. And then on top of that, when I tried to go through our inbox so I could make a list of all the listeners that I wanted to thank here at the top of the episode, I found nothing. Zero emails. I remember them coming in, yet I could not find them. Honestly though, this feels like just a mysterious gift from the universe because by the time I got to this end of the research for this, I just loved Cecilia Payne Kaposchkin. I don't love the sexism she faced that we're going to talk about, but like, her whole story, I really delighted in. She grew up in a society that just did not prioritize education for girls and that regarded women's academic ambitions as suspect, but her determination and her creativity at getting around that just was so delightful to me. So that's what we're going to talk about today.

[Khloe Kardashian]

So Cecilia Payne was born in Wendover, England on May 10, 1900. Her father, Edward, was a barrister and a historian, and her mother, Emma, was an artist. Cecilia was the oldest of Edward and Emma's children, with a younger brother, Humphrey, and a sister, Leonora. From a very early age, Cecilia was curious and imaginative, with a keen memory and sharp observation. Their home was full of music, art and literature, and they had a large library.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

They were a pretty comfortable middle class family. They had enough money to afford household help and that allowed Emma to keep working as an art copyist, even when her children were still really small. But that changed after Edward's sudden death when Cecilia was 4. Edward had married Emma somewhat later in life and he died the day after Christmas 1904 at the age of 60. His body was found in a river where he had apparently drowned. He had been experiencing some heart trouble and some dizziness, which may have contributed to his death, but it's, it's just not clear exactly what happened.

[Khloe Kardashian]

Although Emma received a widow stipend after Edward's death, it really didn't match what his income had been and money was a lot tighter. Even so, Emma tried to make sure that her children were immersed in culture. She would scrape together enough to travel and attend concerts and go to museums. The children's upbringing also wasn't always conventional. When Cecilia asked for a bedtime story, her mother read her the Odyssey. When Emma decided Cecilia was too old for stories, Cecilia started by telling herself stories at bedtime before moving on to making up bedtime stories for her younger sister.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Although Cecilia was really bright and driven to learn, when she started school, she had some struggles. The teachers at the little school across the street from their home, which she was attending, they encouraged her. But Cecilia was also left handed and they taught her to write with her right hand. This really deeply frustrated her. So she taught herself to be more ambidextrous and to do things like write upside down using techniques and exercises from a pamphlet that her great grandfather had written. That pamphlet was called Painting With Both Hands.

[Khloe Kardashian]

I know so many people who were natural lefties that were forced to write right handed and it was never delightful for anybody.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

No. My preschool teachers kept telling me to put the pencil in the hand that felt most comfortable in, and I was like, I don't know what you're talking about. So I just imitated what the other children were doing. And I, to this day don't know if I really should have learned to write with my left hand. And that's why my penmanship has been terrible my entire life. Entire life. Or maybe my penmanship is just terrible for my entire life.

[Khloe Kardashian]

You know, everybody's scribbling. My dad was a lefty that was pushed to right handedness, and his penmanship has always been a little bit fraught. Looking like it always looks stressed.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Khloe Kardashian]

But when Cecilia was eight, she was out in the family's orchard when she spotted a bee orchid growing in the grass. She recognized it, not because she had seen one before, but because her mother had described one to her once. And when she convinced her mother that yes, there really was a bee orchid growing out in the orchard, Emma had the gardener transplant it to a better location. And after this experience, Cecilia decided that the one thing she wanted to do was study nature and science.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

It was a few years before she could really do that, though. When Cecilia was 12, the family moved from Wendover, which was a little more rural, surrounded by woods and hills, to the Bayswater neighborhood of London. They moved there for the sake of her brother Humphrey's education, to give him access to a better public school. Cecelia was enrolled in a parochial school called St. Mary's that school was really.

[Khloe Kardashian]

Not a good fit for Cecilia, though. A big part of her school day was religious instruction, which really did not interest her. So much so that she would pretend to faint to try to get out of going to chapel. She also tried to get a book binder to make her an edition of Plato in a Bible cover so that she could read classical philosophy during her religion classes. Unfortunately, that brilliant plan was thwarted because the bookbinder said no to it.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, apparently the bookbinder was appalled by that very suggestion. On top of all of that, girls who truly wanted to learn and who excelled at school were viewed with a lot of suspicion. When Cecilia, who was in the youngest class, came in second out of the entire school in a year end exam, she wasn't praised for her performance. The other students were scolded for allowing her to beat them. Classes for girls were also mostly focused on reading and writing, not on the subjects that Cecilia felt a real passion for.

[Khloe Kardashian]

Cecilia turned to the family library to try to make up for what she saw as huge holes in her education. And while she did love theater, opera, music and literature, which were all represented there, what she really wanted to study was science. And there were almost no books on science on the family shelves. She finally found one book on botany, but it was in German and French, which she did not speak. So she got a dictionary from school and laboriously translated that book into English. She turned to this kind of resourcefulness again and again during her education, including, for example, transcribing an entire textbook from the library by hand before she started at Cambridge because she could not afford to buy a copy of her own.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Eventually, the teachers at St. Mary's started to get really tired of Cecilia's persistence at demanding to study science and to be more challenged in her schoolwork. In addition to trying to teach herself outside of school, she was essentially badgering her teachers into tutoring her in other subjects than the ones that the school offered. Finally, somebody told her that the only way she might be able to study science was as part of training to become a schoolteacher. So she volunteered to teach Sunday school classes to try to prepare herself. Although she focused her Sunday school teaching a lot more on science than on the Bible.

[Khloe Kardashian]

Today's lesson Dandelions. What? Cecilia spent years at St. Mary's butting up against all kinds of barriers to the education that she wanted for herself. And that, of course, was frustrating and exasperating for everyone involved. Teachers and administrators saw her behavior as inappropriate and disruptive. And when she was 17 and had just a year left to go, she was expelled. However, it does seem that the headmistress of St. Mary's wrote a letter encouraging St. Paul's Girls School, which had been established by the Worshipful Company of Mercers, to allow her to enroll there for her last year.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

St. Paul's was far more focused on the academic success of its students than St. Mary's had been. And once she got there, Cecilia was finally encouraged in her pursuit of science. And she excelled in other courses there as well, including polishing her skills in public speaking and studying music, which was actually being taught by Gustav Holst, who was not a famous composer yet. When Holst finished his orchestral suite that's known as the Planets, Cecilia was actually one of the students who got to hear a performance of it that is.

[Khloe Kardashian]

The coolest later on. Cecilia Payne Gaposchkin wrote in her autobiography that the first time she walked through the door at St. Paul's she thought, quote, I shall never be lonely again. Now I can think about science. She finally had the freedom to really pursue her ambitions. And one of those ambitions was to go to Cambridge, which we'll talk about after a sponsor.

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[Tracy V. Wilson]

I found out that was related to the guy that I was dating.

[Jay Shetty]

I don't feel emotions correctly.

[Khloe Kardashian]

I am talking to a felon right now and I cannot decide if I.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Like him or not.

[Podcast Host]

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[Tracy V. Wilson]

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[Jay Shetty]

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[Podcast Host]

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[Holly Fry]

Have you ever wished for a change but weren't sure how to make it? Maybe you felt stuck in a job or a place or a relationship or Join me Emily Tish Sussman over on she Pivots where I explore the inspiring pivots of women Dig deeper into the personal reasons behind them and leave you with the inspiration you need to make your next pivot. In honor of Mother's Day, we have some very special guests. I'm Elaine Welteroth.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And I'm Caitlin Murray.

[Holly Fry]

Both women pivoted out of their careers after having their kids, proving that motherhood is just another chapter in our journey, not the end. Like, it's kind of like, will you have more babies? Yes. Will I always be me? Yeah. And will I continue growing? Yes.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Because I was really in the trenches and I knew my worth and my value as a mom.

[Holly Fry]

Come on over to hear their full stories. You can listen to she pivots on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Oh, there's Cecilia Payne really thrived in the year that she spent at St. Paul's she still had a huge amount of catching up to do if she wanted to go to the University of Cambridge. It wasn't just the challenge of getting into school there. She could only afford to go if she got a scholarship. And aside from her self taught knowledge of botany from that book she translated herself out of the dictionary. She was way behind in all the sciences and in math. But she devoted herself to catching up. And in the end, not only did she get into Cambridge, but she also scored well enough on a competitive exam to earn the only scholarship that was big enough to cover all of her expenses in full. Cecilia started at Newnham College, which is a women's college at Cambridge, in 1919.

[Khloe Kardashian]

Getting into Cambridge, though, did not mean that she had left behind the kind of sexism that was such a big part of her earlier education. Newnham is a women's college and it had strict rules for students behavior, from standards of dress to curfews to a ban on male visitors. There were also specific rules for Newnham students when they attended lectures or other functions at other Cambridge colleges. And even though all the students at Cambridge were meeting the same academic requirements, regardless of their gender, only men were actually awarded degrees.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

There were also expectations about which courses women should take. There wasn't really a barrier to studying the natural sciences in general, but in the first part of their time at Cambridge, women studying the natural sciences were expected to focus on botany. Botany was like the women's science students selected two other subjects to go along with that primary focus, and the companion courses for botany were typically zoology and chemistry. So if a woman wanted to study science at Cambridge during this time, it was just generally understood that she would start out studying Botany, zoology and chemistry.

[Khloe Kardashian]

Well, of course, because ladies like flowers and animals.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Correct.

[Khloe Kardashian]

In spite of Cecilia's childhood experience with the bee orchid and her self taught study of botany, by this point she was really a lot more interested in chemistry and physics. At the same time. Trying to make either of those her primary course of study seemed incredibly risky given how shaky her earlier instruction in these subjects had been and in the math that was required, which she was also behind on, and in the uphill battle she would face as a young woman pursuing either of these subjects. So she initially chose to study botany and chemistry as expected, but she added physics to that rather than zoology.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

But on December 2nd of 1919, Cecelia Payne had an experience that completely shifted her focus, much like the discovery of that bee orchid had when she was a child. This time it was a lecture by Arthur Stanley Eddington. Eddington had been part of an expedition to view the total solar eclipse that took place on May 19th of 1919. And that expedition was to measure how the sun's gravity affected light from star stars. We talked about that expedition in our 2017 episode on historical eclipses. The data gathered during this eclipse supported Einstein's theory of general relativity.

[Khloe Kardashian]

And Cecilia was absolutely captivated by this lecture. She later wrote, quote, the result was a complete transformation of my world picture. When I returned to my room, I found that I could write down the lecture word for word.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

At about the same time, Cecilia was also starting to question her choice of studying botany. Most of the material that she was hearing in lectures was already familiar to her, but at the same time, she was so inexperienced at the more practical side that she made mistakes that caused her to doubt herself. After Eddington's lecture, she really wished she could change her focus to astronomy, but that was flatly impossible. Astronomy was classified under math, not under natural science, and students could not jump into a totally different course of study that way.

[Khloe Kardashian]

So she changed her main focus from botany to physics. And since students were allowed to attend lectures outside their particular field of study, she also went to astronomy lectures and spent as much time at Cambridge Observatory as she could with the help of astronomer L.J. comrie. She also repaired the clock at Newnham's small observatory and started spending her evenings there making observations and recording data.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

At one point, she ran into Arthur Eddington again at Cambridge Observatory and told him that she wanted to be an astronomer. When he realized how set she was on this idea and how much study she had already done on her own, he recommended some journals that she could use to continue her studies and also told her that she could use the Cambridge Observatory library.

[Khloe Kardashian]

As all of this had been happening, debate had been ongoing about how women's education should work at Cambridge. And on October 24, 1921, the Cambridge Council of the Senate voted that women would be granted titular degrees from the university. This was better than the previous setup, which was that women who completed all the requirements of the degree were awarded nothing. But it also meant that women were to be given the title of the degree, but not the degree itself. This sparked outrage, mainly from men who objected to women being acknowledged at all.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

In early 1923, Cecilia Payne was getting toward the end of her study at Cambridge, and she had spent those years dividing her time adding as much astronomy as she could to her study of physics and natural sciences. She had learned from luminaries like Niels Bohr, who was awarded the Nobel Prize for his work with Adams in 1922. She also studied computing, including joining the computing section at the British Astronomical Association. And she had been elected to the Royal Astronomical Society while still a student as well.

[Khloe Kardashian]

She had done all this while facing derision and resentment, not just from her male peers, but also, in some cases, from the faculty. At lectures, women were required to sit in the front row by themselves. She described how at the start of his lectures, Ernest Rutherford would very pointedly begin, ladies and gentlemen.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

She'd also come to understand that she just had no future as an astronomer if she stayed in England because of her sex. The only path that was really open to her was still becoming a schoolteacher. L.J. comrie offered to take her to a lecture that Harlow Shapley, who was director of the Harvard College Observatory, was giving in London. Comrie could introduce the two of them, and then maybe that would open a door for Cecilia to continue her education in the United States. States where she might have more opportunities than she did in the uk.

[Khloe Kardashian]

This worked. Payne told Shapley directly that she wanted to come to Harvard to work for him. Shapley encouraged this idea, casually suggesting that she might replace Annie Jump Cannon, Harvard Observatory's curator of astronomical photographs, when she retired. This was more of a reflection on the roles that women filled at Harvard rather than an actual job offer.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, it was sort of like offhanded, hey, maybe you could be Annie's replacement. Because obviously a woman does that job and a woman would do that job anyway. Just as going to Cambridge had required Cecilia to gain admission and also to get a scholarship, going to Harvard also required her to secure some funding, otherwise she just would not have the money to do it on February 26, 1923, she wrote to Shapley about trying to get a fellowship. She also got recommendations From Arthur Eddington, L.J. comrie, and her old headmistress at St. Paul's it really seems like she got a recommendation from every conceivable person that could give her one. She also applied for as many scholarships and fellowships as she could to try to scrape together enough money to afford her passage across the ocean, to buy appropriate clothing, and to pay for her living expenses while she was there.

[Khloe Kardashian]

And once again, she was successful. She as she prepared to leave England, astrophysicist Edward Arthur Milne suggests that if he were in her place, he would take advantage of the wealth of data available at Harvard to verify an equation that astrophysicist Mignad Saha had developed in 1920. This equation expressed the relationship between a star's pressure and temperature and the ionization of the elements in the star.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

We'll get to what she did with that after one more second Sponsor Break.

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[Jay Shetty]

This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. May is Mental Health Awareness Month and Talkspace, the leading virtual therapy provider, is telling everyone let's face it in therapy by talking or texting with a supportive licensed therapist at Talkspace, you can face whatever is holding you back, whether it's mental health symptoms, relationship drama, past trauma, bad habits or another challenge that you need support to work through. It's easy to sign up. Just go to talkspace.com and you'll be paired with a provider, typically within 48 hours. And because you'll meet your therapist online, you don't have to take time off work or arrange childcare. You'll meet on your schedule. Plus, Talkspace is in network with most major insurers and most insured members have a $0 copay. Make your mental health a priority and start today. If you're not covered by insurance, get $80 off your first month with Talkspace. When you go to Talkspace, dot com and enter promo code SPACE80. That's S P A CE80. To match with a licensed therapist today, go to Talkspace.com and enter promo code SPACE80.

[Podcast Host]

I found out I was related to.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

The guy that I was dating.

[Jay Shetty]

I don't feel emotions correctly.

[Khloe Kardashian]

I am talking to a felon right now and I cannot decide if I.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Like him or not.

[Podcast Host]

Those were some callers from my call in Podcast Therapy Gecko. It's a show where I take real phone calls from anonymous strangers all over the world as a phone call fake gecko therapist and try to dig into their brains and learn a little bit about their lives. I know that's a weird concept, but I promise it's pretty interesting if you give it a shot. Matter of fact, here's a few more examples of the kinds of calls we get on this show.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I live with my boyfriend and I found his piss jar in our apartment. I collect my roommate's toenails and fingernails.

[Jay Shetty]

I have very overbearing parents. Even at the age of 29, they don't let me move out of their house.

[Podcast Host]

So if you want an excuse to get out of your own head and see what's going on in someone else's head, search for therapy gecko on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's the one with the green guy on it.

[Holly Fry]

Have you ever wished for a change but weren't sure how to make it? Maybe you felt stuck in a job or a place or a relationship? Join me, Emily Tish Sussman over on she Pivots, where I explore the inspiring pivots of women. Dig deeper into the personal reasons behind them and leave you with the inspiration you need to make your next pivot. In honor of Mother's Day, we have some very special guests. I'm Elaine Welteroth.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And I'm Caitlin Murray.

[Holly Fry]

Both women pivoted out of their careers after having their kids, proving that motherhood is just another chapter in our journey, not the end. It's kind of like, will you have more babies? Yes. Will I always be me? Yeah. And will I continue growing? Yes.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Because I was really in the trenches and I knew my worth and my value as a mom.

[Holly Fry]

Come on over to hear their full stories. You can listen to she pivots on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Cecilia Payne left Cambridge, England for K Cambridge, Massachusetts in September of 1923. Her fellowship at Harvard College Observatory gave her the freedom to choose the focus of her research. And as EA Milne had suggested, she started studying photographic plates of the spectra of stars to try to confirm Saha's.

[Khloe Kardashian]

Equation, To make sense of what she was doing all the way back. In 1666, Isaac Newton used a prism to separate sunlight into a continuous series of colors, Using the word spectrum to describe what he saw. Later, William Wollaston and Joseph Fraunhofer each observed that if you looked at the sun's spectrum in fine enough detail, There were dark lines within that spectrum. These became known as Fraunhofer lines or absorption lines. But Fraunhofer did not have an explanation for what those lines were or why they were there.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Then, in 1855, Robert Bunsen built on earlier designs to develop the Bunsen burner. The Bunsen burner produced an almost colorless flame, and that made it useful for studying the light that was produced by heating or burning different elements. Not long after, Gustav Kirchhoff suggested that they could use a prism to separate this light into its spectrum. That would make it easier to distinguish the fine differences in flames that had really similar colors. This was an early version of the spectroscope. Through this work, Kirchhoff discovered that each element had its own unique set of spectral lines when it was heated, Almost like a fingerprint.

[Khloe Kardashian]

We talked a little bit about this when we talked about the discovery of helium. Emission lines come from the wavelengths of light that elements emit when they're excited, and absorption lines appear when wavelengths of light are absorbed in between when they're produced and when we observe them today, we know that the presence of these lines Relates to the structure of the atom and what happens when atoms are excited to different levels of energy. But at the end of the 19th century, physicists and astronomers knew that these spectra existed, but they didn't quite know what they meant.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

At Harvard College, Observatory astronomers started using these spectra to classify stars. Wilhelmina P.S. fleming, who had been the housekeeper of observatory director Edward C. Pickering, Developed a classification system that was primarily based on the strength of the hydrogen lines in these spectra. Any jump cannon later simplified and refined this system into one that still exists today. The types O, B, A, F, G, K, and m. Often put into the mnemonic ob. A fine girl, kiss me. That was purportedly coined by Henry Norris Russell. There are also a few other classifications that can be added into that mnemonic and some other attempts at mnemonics that are less gendered, Relying on the idea that, like, you want a woman to kiss you, maybe whether she's really up for that or not. That includes only bad astronomers forget generally known mnemonics.

[Khloe Kardashian]

But as was the case with Fraunhofer's discovery of absorption spectra, Cannon didn't really have a sense of why stars fit into these categories or what those categories meant. She was cataloging, not analyzing or interpreting. But the observatory did have more than 200,000 photographic plates documenting star spectra organized into these categories. Thanks to the work of Williamina Fleming, Annie Jump Cannon, and other women at.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Harvard Observatory, I have Annie Jump Cannon on my list for a future episode, just in case folks are like, I wish you had an episode on. And he jumped Cannon. After getting to Harvard, Cecelia Payne got to work examining these plates through a jeweler's loop. She worked with an intense and unshakable focus, sometimes going days without sleep, chain smoking the whole time, rarely remembering to empty the ashtray. A lot of accounts of her office talk about the like overflowing ashtray. Eventually, she realized that she was seeing four different ionizations of cell silicon represented in the spectra on the plates. This ultimately led her to the discovery that the variations she was seeing among these spectra were coming from different levels of ionization of the elements that were involved, based on the star's temperature, not on actual differences in the amounts of elements that were present there.

[Khloe Kardashian]

Through all of this work folded into Saha's equation, Payne gradually came to understand that all the stars had roughly the same proportions of 18 different elements, with hydrogen and helium being most abundant. However, this was totally contrary to the theories of the day. Most astronomers and physicists at the time were working from the principle of uniformity, that all the planets and stars were made of the same elements, that Earth was in about the same proportions. And while there were a few elements that did have similar proportions to what was found on Earth, she discovered that helium was 1000 times more abundant than expected, and hydrogen, which we now know is the most prevalent element in universe, was a million times more abundant.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

So pain had always been ambitious. But she also realized that it was possible that she had not just discovered something that would completely rewrite our understanding of the stars, that maybe she had just made a mistake. Like, it's a shorter walk to I made a mistake than I have just discovered, something that fundamentally changes our understanding of how the universe works. So she painstakingly went through her work over and over, trying to figure out where she had made an error. And she could not find one. One, because she had not made one. She was right.

[Khloe Kardashian]

At this point, Harlow Shapley was trying to transform Harvard Observatory into a department of astronomy at Harvard. He convinced Payne to use her findings to write a thesis which would allow her to Earn the first PhD in astronomy ever to be awarded at Harvard University. At first, Payne doubted that this would be worth her time, but she ultimately agreed.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

However, some of the people who were involved with reviewing and approving this thesis doubted her conclusions. In particular, Henry Norris Russell, whose work hinged on the principle of uniformity, demanded that she allow for the possibility that she was just mistaken. Her thesis included the caveat. The outstanding discrepancies between the astrophysical and terrestrial abundances are displayed for hydrogen and helium. The enormous abundance derived for these elements in the stellar atmospheres is almost certainly not real.

[Khloe Kardashian]

Russell would not have accepted Payne's thesis without this concession. So if she hadn't included it, she wouldn't have had a thesis at all or been awarded a PhD. So including this couching was a pragmatic decision. This wasn't something that she brooded over, but it was something she regretted. She would later say, quote, as a warning to the young, if you are sure of your facts, you should defend.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Your Even with its downplaying of the most revolutionary for findings. In 1962, Otto Struve and Welta Ziebergs called this thesis, which was published under the title Stellar A Contribution to the Observational Study of High Temperature in the Reversing Layers of Stars. They called it, quote, undoubtedly, the most brilliant PhD thesis ever written in astronomy. It was also the first monograph ever to be published by the Harvard Observatory.

[Khloe Kardashian]

Cecelia Payne was awarded a PhD from Radcliffe College in 1925, as Harvard itself did not yet award degrees to women. Harlow Shapley had thought her work was so obviously profound and worthy that after she took her final oral exam for her PhD, he didn't tell her she had passed. She only found out after astronomer Margaret Harwood found her weeping inconsolably in her office, thinking that she must have failed. I want to time travel and hug her.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I want to time travel and yell at Harlow Shapley.

[Khloe Kardashian]

Well, I feel like, though his thing wasn't even he was just thoughtless.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, he was like, obviously, you passed. How would. What? Anyway, eventually, the field of astronomy did come to realize that Paine's conclusions about the compositions of stars and the abundance of hydrogen and helium in the universe were correct. This included Henry Norris Russell, who acknowledged that fact in 1929.

[Khloe Kardashian]

The completion of her PhD meant that Payne no longer had fellowship money to live off of. So she started looking for a job. She got offers from other observatories and universities, but she ultimately stayed at Harvard, where she was hired as Harlow Shapley's assistant. This didn't pay very much, and she had to pawn some of her belongings to make ends meet in the gap between when her fellowship ended and when her job started, but it was enough for her to move out of the dorm and into her own apartment as long as she had a roommate.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Being Shapley's assistant also meant that Payne no longer had the freedom to choose the research that she wanted to do, and at first Shapley had her keep working with photographic plates of stellar spectra, even though there was more sophisticated technology becoming available by that point. She was also expected to teach courses for the newly established Department of Astronomy at Harvard, although since she wasn't technically on the faculty, her name was not included in the course catalog. Her students described her as very intense, sometimes intimidating, and her lectures were both beautiful and memorable, even though she was.

[Khloe Kardashian]

Not being paid or recognized accordingly. Shapley was definitely aware of what an asset Paine was. In one letter, he described her as, quote, one of the most outstanding astrophysicists of America, of any and all sexes. In 1926, she also became the youngest person to be listed in American Men of Science. She became a US citizen in 1931.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Then, in 1932 and 1933, Cecilia Payne experienced a series of tragedies. Her closest friend from Harvard was astronomer Adelaide Ames. The two of them were so close that they had been nicknamed the Heavenly Twins. Adelaide drowned after being swept from a canoe during a sudden storm in 1932 while at Cambridge. Cecilia had been similarly inseparable from her friend Betty Leaf, and they had remained very close. In the years that had followed, Cecilia learned that Betty had also drowned in 1933, as she later wrote in her autobiography, quote adelaide and Betty, all that I was not beautiful, delicate, beloved were dead and I was alive. I was absorbed in my work, shy and unattractive. What was I giving? I made a silent resolve. I would open my heart to the world. I would embrace life. She decided to travel, making a trip to the Polkovo Observatory outside St. Petersburg.

[Khloe Kardashian]

During that trip, she also went to an astronomical conference in Gutengen, Germany, and there she met Sergei Gaposhkin. Gaposhkin was from Russia. His parents and most of his siblings had died during a typhus outbreak and at the end of the Russian Civil War, had left him with no money and no documents that could prove his identity.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Eventually, he had made his way into Germany, where he had earned a PhD in astronomy. But Hitler's rise to power put him in a really impossible situation. He was a Russian living in Germany without any papers. Kaposchkin traveled by bicycle for four days to get to Gttingen for this conference with the hope that one of the other astronomers there could help him get out.

[Khloe Kardashian]

And the person who helped him was Cecilia Payne. She got Harlow Shapley to offer him a position at Harvard and to contact the American consul in Germany to try to get Gaposchkin out of the country. After she got back to the United States, Cecilia personally went to Washington, D.C. to try to get his visa expedited.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

In 1934, three months after Sergei arrived in the U.S. he and Cecilia got married. Most of her colleagues were baffled. It did seem quite sudden, but in a lot of ways their marriage really made sense. Both of them were dedicated astronomers, and Sergei was also an artist. At the time, it was expected for women to leave the workforce after getting married. But Sergei was a refugee, and his temporary job at Harvard paid even less than Cecilia's did. If they got married, that meant that he would be dependent on her income to survive. There would be no possible way for her to just leave the workforce because she was a married woman now.

[Khloe Kardashian]

In other ways, it made less sense. Over time, Sergei developed a reputation for being opinionated and hard to work with, and he openly flirted with other women in the observatory. He was a capable astronomer, but Cecilia was brilliant. In some accounts, Harvard tolerated his rough edges just to keep cecilia there.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Between 1935 and 1940, they had three children, Edward, Catherine and Peter. And Cecilia broke with convention yet again by continuing to teach while she was pregnant. Since they couldn't afford childcare, they pretty much brought the kids with them to work.

[Khloe Kardashian]

Cecilia and Sergei also started doing research together, publishing a book on variable stars in 1938. That same year, the American Astronomical Society awarded Cecilia Payne Gaposchkin the first ever Annie Jump Cannon Prize, which still exists today and recognizes outstanding postdoctoral research by a woman. Also in 1938, Payne Gaposchkin was finally named to the Harvard faculty with the title of astronomer.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

In the summer of 1939, Sergei and Cecilia traveled to Paris for a conference, in spite of the growing tensions in Europe. But Sir Arthur Stanley Eddington was also going to be at this conference, and Cecilia wanted the chance to see him again. This actually turned out to be her last opportunity to do so. He died in 1944. Germany invaded Poland just days before Cecilia and Sergey arrived back in the US Aboard a ship, the French vessel called the SS Normandy.

[Khloe Kardashian]

Cecilia and Sergei continued to work at Harvard during and after the war. Cecilia's name was finally included in the course catalog starting in 1945. In 1956, she became the first woman to be a tenured professor at Harvard, and soon after, she was also the first woman to chair a department that wasn't specifically for women. At this point, her salary was doubled, but her children were still a fixture around the laboratory. The Harvard Observatory Council formally warned Peter, the youngest, to stop bothering the staff in 1958.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

She was away when the meeting happened, when they had this discussion and was outraged about it. It's very embarrassing. And she was also like, he's old enough for you to be talking directly to him about these issues anyway. During her career as an astronomer, Cecilia Payne Gaposchkin published more than 150 papers and several monographs, as well as multiple books and on astronomy. In addition to the one we mentioned earlier. This included the stars of high luminosity in 1930 and variable stars in galactic structure in 1954. In 1976, she was awarded the Henry Norris Russell Prize, which is essentially a lifetime achievement award by the American Astronomical Society. And a nice irony considering his earlier appearance in this story.

[Khloe Kardashian]

Cecilia Payne Gaposchkin died of lung cancer on December 7, 1979. Her daughter published her autobiography, the Dyer's Hand, along with other collected writings in 1984. Today, there is a portrait of Cecilia Payne Gaposchkin hanging in the faculty room in Harvard's University Hall. It is in the style of Vermeer's 1668 painting the Astronomer, and it was painted by Patricia Watwood.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

We will end with a quote from Cecelia Payne Gaposchkin. Quote. There is no joy more intense than that of coming upon a fact that cannot be understood in terms of currently accepted ideas. Nature has always had a trick of surprising us, and she will continue to surprise us, but she has never let us down yet. I love her.

[Khloe Kardashian]

I do, too. She's marvelous. I'm so glad you picked this one.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I'm so glad that mysterious people asked for this a couple of months ago and now I can find no record of it.

[Khloe Kardashian]

Maybe someone will write and explain where they saw. Like what, maybe what Facebook group or Twitter thread or whatever it got brought up on that got so many people excited about her story.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, I tried several different searches to try to try to find the emails. I tried just Cecilia. I tried Goposhkin. I tried her whole name. I remember specifically somebody said, can you do an episode on the woman who discovered helium? And I was like I don't think that's quite right quite what? But like and I like just searching helium I also didn't find it was just a whole big mystery. SA.

[Jay Shetty]

This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. May is mental health awareness month, and Talkspace, the leading virtual therapy provider, is telling everyone let's face it in therapy, by talking or texting with a supportive licensed therapist at Talkspace, you can face whatever is holding you back, whether it's mental health symptoms, relationship drama, past trauma, bad habits, or another challenge that you need support to work through, it's easy to sign up. Just go to talkspace.com and you'll be paired with a provider, typically within 48 hours. And because you'll meet your therapist online, you don't have to take time off work or arrange childcare. You'll meet on your schedule. Plus, Talkspace is in network with most major insurers and most insured members have a $0 copay. Make your mental health a priority and start today. If you're not covered by insurance, get $80 off your first month with Talkspace when you go to talkspace.com and enter promo code SPACE80. That's S P A CE83. To match with a licensed therapist today, go to talkspace.com and Enter promo code SPACE80.

[Emily Tish Sussman]

This week on Dear Chelsea with me, Chelsea Handler.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Connie Britton is here. I think you should encourage your friend.

[Emily Tish Sussman]

To go ahead and not be holding.

[Holly Fry]

Out for any man to have her babies. She could be waiting another 10 years.

[Emily Tish Sussman]

Before she finds the right guy. Connie didn't meet her right guy until.

[Jay Shetty]

You were what, 50, Connie?

[Tracy V. Wilson]

52. 52.

[Jay Shetty]

52.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I kept thinking, oh, I'm gonna meet the guy. I'm gonna meet the guy. I'm gonna meet the guy. I finally was like, what am I waiting for? And I did it. And I'm just so glad that I did.

[Holly Fry]

Listen to Dear Chelsea on the iHeartRadio.

[Emily Tish Sussman]

App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Podcast Host]

I found out I was related to.

[Holly Fry]

The guy that I was dating.

[Jay Shetty]

I don't feel emotions correctly.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I collect my roommate's toenails and fingernails.

[Podcast Host]

Those were some callers from my call in podcast therapy Gecko. It's a show where I take phone calls from anonymous strangers as a fake gecko therapist and try to learn a little bit about their lives. I know that's a weird concept, but I promise it's very interesting. Check it out for yourself by searching for Therapy gecko on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jay Shetty]

Hey, I'm Jay Shetty, and I'm the host of the On Purpose podcast, and I'm excited for my next episode with Khloe Kardashian.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

God, I've been through so many things that at this point, I would rather not feel than feel, because feeling is too much for me to handle. I am Khloe Kardashian. Khloe Kardashian, everybody.

[Khloe Kardashian]

Khloe Kardashian.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

No one understands how it's. I'm not just a TV show.

[Jay Shetty]

Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Podcast Host]

You're listening to an iHeart podcast.