SYMHC Classics: S.S. Arctic

Summary

Podcast Summary: Stuff You Missed in History Class - "SYMHC Classics: S.S. Arctic"

Original Air Date: January 15, 2014, Re-release: September 27, 2025
Hosts: Holly Fry & Tracy V. Wilson
Podcast: Stuff You Missed in History Class, iHeartPodcasts

---

Overview: Tragedy at Sea and the Enduring Myth of "Women and Children First"

In this classic episode, Holly and Tracy revisit the ill-fated voyage of the SS Arctic, a 19th-century Atlantic steamship whose catastrophic sinking in 1854 cast a long shadow over maritime safety myths and practices. The sinking, notable for the total loss of all women and children on board and the survival of the captain, shattered contemporary expectations of maritime gallantry and has since sparked ongoing reflection about the realities and myths of disaster behavior, including the enduring notion of “women and children first.” The episode follows the rise and fall of the Collins Line, details the disaster, explores survivor testimonies, and examines modern statistical analyses of shipwreck survivals.

---

Episode Breakdown

The SS Arctic and the Collins Line (03:37–07:02)

• Context: The SS Arctic was a state-of-the-art paddlewheel steamer, launched in 1850 as part of Edward Knight Collins’ ambitious Collins Line. This American company was a direct competitor to Britain’s Cunard Line.
• Specs: Originally built for 200 passengers (expanded to 280) and some cargo, the Arctic was 285ft (87 meters) long and weighed 2,856 tons.
• Achievements: The Arctic could sustain speeds over 12 knots—setting a record in 1852 for the fastest eastbound Atlantic crossing at more than 13 knots.
• Business Rivalry: Initially outpaced Cunard in prestige and speed, but high maintenance costs for advanced machinery eroded profits and reliability.

“The Arctic was a wooden hull paddlewheel steamer designed to carry both cargo...and up to 200 passengers...And it was 285ft long, which is about 87 meters, and it weighed in at 2,856 tons.”
– Holly Fry (05:00)

---

The Disaster Unfolds (07:02–12:16)

The Collision

• Departure: The Arctic left Liverpool on September 20, 1854, with 233 passengers and about 150 crew under Captain James C. Luce.
• Disaster: On September 27, in dense fog near the Grand Banks (southeast of Newfoundland), the Arctic collided at full speed with the French steamer Vesta.
• SOP at the Time: Both ships were speeding to get through the fog as quickly as possible—a common, if dangerous, practice.

“It was actually policy at this time in the Collins line to run through a fog as quickly as possible so that they could clear the visual obstruction...Yes, this policy was as unwise as it sounds.”
– Holly Fry (07:48)

Immediate Aftermath

• Damage Assessment: Initial belief (mistaken) that Vesta was sinking prompted its crew to head for the Arctic, until it became clear the Arctic was rapidly taking on water.
• Panic: Multiple large breaches from Vesta’s iron hull overwhelmed the wooden Arctic, inciting chaos as water surged in.
• Lifeboats: Ordered to prioritize women and children, but disorder prevailed—crew and male passengers commandeered lifeboats, while the first efforts ended disastrously (boats destroyed; men lost).
• Survival Stats: Only two of five lifeboats made landfall (in Newfoundland), carrying 45 men (mostly crew). Of about 80 on a makeshift raft, only one survived.

“The panicked crewmen did not follow the captain's orders to prioritize the lives of the women and children, and instead, many of them jumped into the lifeboats themselves.”
– Holly Fry (09:34)

Grim Outcome

• Death Toll: All 109 women and children aboard perished, along with 149 male passengers and 92 crew. Historians note number inconsistencies due to incomplete records.

“There wasn't always a clear line of record as to what had happened to everybody.”
– Holly Fry (10:50)

---

Public and Personal Aftermath (15:57–21:38)

Scandal

• Scandalized Public: The survival disparity, with mostly crew living while all women and children died, became a transatlantic scandal, effectively dooming the Collins Line. The subsequent disappearance of the SS Pacific in 1856 sealed the company’s fate.
• Legacy: The Cunard Line survived and still operates today.

“The disproportionate amount of the crew survivors versus passenger caused a major scandal on both sides of the Atlantic.”
– Holly Fry (16:03)

Captain Luce’s Letter (17:08–21:38)

• Personal Loss: Luce, while surviving, lost his own son in the tragedy and detailed wrenching scenes in his correspondence.
• Testimony: The captain’s detailed letter to E.K. Collins recounted the botched lifeboat attempts, his heartbreak watching the panic and deaths, and his own near-drowning.

“I soon found myself on the surface after a brief struggling with my own helpless child in my arms...a most awful and heartrending scene presented itself to my view. Over 200 men, women and children struggling together amidst pieces of wreck...such an appalling scene. May God preserve me from ever witnessing again.”
– Captain Luce (read by Holly Fry, 19:50)

• Aftermath: Despite the disaster, Luce was later welcomed home and continued working in marine insurance until his death in 1879.

---

The "Women and Children First" Myth Examined (25:17–33:43)

Research Spotlight

• Modern Analysis: A 2012 Uppsala University study (Mikael Elinder & Oscar Erixson) of 18 shipwrecks from 1852-2011 (covering 15,000+ people) challenged the assumption that “women and children first” benefits those groups.
  • Key Findings:
    • Women were half as likely as men to survive.
    • Crew had 18.7% better survival odds than passengers.
    • Only 7 of 16 ship captains went down with their ships.
  • Notable Outliers: The 1852 HMS Birkenhead (actual “women and children first” order, all survived in those groups) and the Titanic (high female survival—but mainly among first class).

“Women and children actually have the least likelihood of survival in a maritime disaster.”
– Tracy V. Wilson (25:44)

Chivalry, Class, and Reality

• British Ships: The ideal (“Birkenhead drill”) was more often cited on British ships, where, paradoxically, actual female survival rates were lowest.
• Influencing Factors: Study found captain’s behavior, not ship speed of sinking, set the tone for evacuation.
• Changing Practices: Current maritime procedures stress equality of escape and safety drills; accommodations are for ability or mobility, not gender or class.
• Reflection on Victorians: The emphasis on “women and children first” is rooted in 19th-century British (Victorian) notions and benevolent sexism, not in statistically grounded safety.

“It gets into very interesting stuff. And I like that the study that was done in Sweden to analyze all of this covered such a nice wide range of...1850s to modern day cruise ships.”
– Holly Fry (32:43)

Memorable Observations

• Human Nature in Panic: The hosts discuss how, under duress, theoretical norms give way to self-preservation—and how it’s impossible to predict one’s own response.

“I don't know how I would react in such a moment. I don't think, you know, until you're in it.”
– Holly Fry (29:06)

---

Notable Quotes

• On the shipwreck’s aftermath:
  “All 109 of the women and children that were aboard were killed, as well as 149 male passengers and 92 crew members.”
  – Holly Fry (10:50)

• On class and survival, Titanic:
  “So it was not quite so much women and children first as it was rich women and children first.”
  – Tracy V. Wilson (29:33)

• Historical reality vs. myth:
  “It definitely does seem to come from a sense of chivalry. Yeah. And what we might classify today as benevolent sexism…”
  – Tracy V. Wilson (32:10)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction & Maritime Myths: 03:33–04:37
• The SS Arctic and Collins Line: 04:37–07:02
• The Collision and Sinking: 07:02–12:16
• Public Response and Company Downfall: 15:57–16:55
• Captain Luce’s Account: 17:08–21:38
• Women and Children First – Modern Research: 25:17–32:43
• Class, Chivalry, and Changing Safety Practice: 29:11–33:09

---

Tone and Style

• Engaged and curious; Holly and Tracy discuss the story with empathy for those involved and an eye toward busting persistent historical myths.
• Conversational, with gentle humor and a focus on nuance in human behavior.

---

Episode Takeaways

• The SS Arctic’s sinking is both a maritime tragedy and a lesson in the difference between historical ideals and what happens in emergencies.
• The commonly held “women and children first” principle has rare historical precedent and was largely mythologized—survival in disasters is often a function of chaos, authority action, and luck, rather than gallantry.
• Modern research and practice have shifted focus towards equality, practicality, and accessibility in emergency procedures at sea.

---

Transcript

[Tracy V. Wilson]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Annabe Washable Sofa Advertiser]

Picture it. 1852, a scandal erupts in Charleston not over politics, but over a ruined velvet settee. A guest spilled Madeira wine and tried to blame the dog. If only they'd had an Annabe Washable. Comfortable, practically drama proof. Annabe. A modern sofa for lives as messy as history itself. Built with machine washable, covers, modular design and customizable comfort. It's made to survive every spill, splash and social mishap. Starting at just $6.99 and with up to 60% off right now, there's never been a better time to upgrade. So skip the scandal, head to washablesofas.com and relax, knowing history won't repeat itself in your living room. Shop Anna bay [e-mail] and get 60% off your new washable sofa. That's washablesofas.

[IBM AI Agent Advertiser]

So your AI agents, they make the team that uses them more productive, right? But if they aren't connected to other agents or your data or your existing workflows, how productive can they really make your teams? Any business can add AI agents. IBM connects your agents across your company to change how you do business. Let's create Smart to Business IBM.

[Old Gays Podcast Promoter]

Listen to your elders, honey. You might know them from their viral videos, but now the old gays are pulling back the curtain with their new podcast, Silver Linings. With the Old Gays, brought to you in partnership with iHeart's Ruby Studio and Veeve Healthcare, hosts Robert, Mick, Bill and Jesse serve their lifetime of wisdom when it comes to love, sex, community and whatever else they've got on the gay agenda. So check out Silver Linings with the old gays on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts at T. Rowe Price, their experience helps them see investment potential differently. Instead of quick answers, they know that what really leads to confident investing is true curiosity. And since you're listening to this podcast, we know you value curiosity too. It's what drives them to ask the questions that really matter in our ever changing world, like can healthcare innovations create a healthier world? And how will AI be a part of a new tomorrow? Just like you, their curiosity runs deep. And with it comes the power to help you invest more confidently.

[Holly Fry]

Better.

[Old Gays Podcast Promoter]

Better questions, better outcomes. T. Rowe Price. Learn more@t rowprice.com Curiosity Happy Saturday. The SS Arctic sank on September 27, 1854, or 171 years ago. Today, on the day this episode is coming out, our episode on this disaster is today's Saturday Classic.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Please Excuse our pronouncing the word Newfoundland the way we were taught to pronounce it in school, which is also how it's listed as pronounced in American English dictionaries, rather than the way many Canadians have told us that it ought to be pronounced.

[Old Gays Podcast Promoter]

This episode originally came out on January 15, 2014. Enjoy. Welcome to Stuff youf Missed in History Class, a production of iHeartRadio.

[Holly Fry]

Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly Fry.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And I'm Tracy V. Wilson.

[Holly Fry]

And if there's a thing we get lots of requests for, it is more maritime and shipwreck story.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yep.

[Holly Fry]

So we're gonna head back to the ocean today. And this particular incident is often held in a particularly tragic light because it seems that in the sinking of this ship, which was the SS Arctic, what we now today perceive as a rule of women and children first, and the captain goes down with this ship, those things did not hold true. None of the women or children aboard the vessel survived the sinking. Spoiler alert. And the captain did survive, even though he did not expect to. He did not abandon ship, but he did survive the ordeal.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. We'll also talk about this whole women and children first idea.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

End of the episode. Once we have all this context under our belts.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah. There's some cool modern statistical analysis that's been done, as well as some research on sort of where that concept came from. And it puts things in an interesting light, I think, when we talk about shipwrecks.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. So we're going to start with talking about the SS Arctic. And it was completed in 1850, and by every account, it was a really glorious ship. She was the third of four Atlantic steamers in the Collins fleet, and they were recognized as just the finest of their time when they were introduced. The other ships were the Atlantic, the Pacific, and the Baltic.

[Holly Fry]

And the pride of the Collins Line of New York, which was founded by Edward Knight Collins. The Arctic was a wooden Hul paddlewheel steamer that was designed to carry both cargo a small amount and up to 200 passengers. Although the passenger space was expanded to accommodate 280 passengers in 1851. And it was 285ft long, which is about 87 meters, and it weighed in at 2,856 tons.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Although it launched on January 21, 1850, its maiden voyage didn't happen until October 27 of that year.

[Holly Fry]

And like her three sister ships, the Arctic could maintain a speed of 12 knots, which is really fast for the time. And In February of 1852, the Arctic set a record for the fastest eastbound crossing of the Atlantic, hitting a speed of more than 13 knots and sustaining it for a while.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

When the Arctic started its career, it was part of a lucrative contract that the Collins Line had with the United States government to be a mail runner between America and Great Britain. And in addition to their income from mail service, they competed with the well established Cunard Line, which came out of Britain for passenger service.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah, and initially the Collins line did very well against Cunard. Their ships were really big and beautiful. They were brand new, they could run several knots faster than the Cunard fleet. But the cost of ongoing maintenance of this advanced machinery that was in the Collins ships did draw off some of their competitive edge. And sometimes it would put their ships out of rotation while they were being serviced. So when you see sort of a business analysis of the situation, it's like Collins arrived on the scene and initially stole a lot of business from Cunard. And then it kind of leveled out as it became apparent that, you know, they couldn't always be running all of the ships and it did cost a lot. So their, their initial wide profit margin shrank a little bit as it had to be allocated into just maintaining the fleet.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

On Wednesday, September 20, 1854, the SS Arctic departed from Liverpool on what would be its last voyage. On board were 233 passengers and 150 or so crew members. The captain was James C. Luce.

[Holly Fry]

And on September 27th, so a week into the voyage, the ship entered into a thick fog while it was approaching the Grand Banks, which is southeast of Newfoundland, Canada.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Also in the fog was the French vessel Vesta, which was headed for Grandville, France. When the Vesta was spotted, they sounded the alarm, but both ships were traveling at full speed and it was just too late. A collision was unavoidable at that point.

[Holly Fry]

And while it may sound incredibly reckless for a ship to be running ahead full in dicey visibility, it was actually policy at this time in the Collins line to run through a fog as quickly as possible so that they could clear the visual obstruction in the shortest possible time. Yes, this policy was as unwise as it sounds, though it was not uncommon for ships to do this at the time because the Vesta was doing a similar thing. So I feel like it's important to mention that this was not a poor judgment call on the captain's part. That was just standard operating procedure.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right.

[Holly Fry]

To get in a fog and gun.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Does in sort of a Hindenburg kind of a situation. Yeah, in hindsight, what a poor idea. Both of the ships were damaged in the collision. And initially it was believed that the Vesta, in spite of having this iron hull, had been damaged much worse. This belief was so pervasive that the passengers and the crew of the Vesta started traveling to the Arctic. But it became quickly apparent that the Arctic was sinking and was not going to help anybody in the situation.

[Holly Fry]

And the Arctic's wooden hull had been basically annihilated by the iron hull of the Vesta. There were multiple holes, and the ship quickly took on water. And the speed of the ocean rushing in through these multiple large holes caused a panic aboard the Arctic.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

The captain directed the crew to point the ship toward the closest land, which was Cape Race, and they started to accelerate toward it, but they took on more and more water and started to sink faster. Within four hours, the ship's furnaces were taking on water, and that just stopped the steamer dead.

[Holly Fry]

And meanwhile, the panicked crewmen did not follow the captain's orders to prioritize the lives of the women and children, and instead, many of them jumped into the lifeboats themselves.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

The first attempts to launch the lifeboats resulted in those boats being destroyed, and the men aboard were lost. Subsequent boats did launch successfully, but most of them were lost at sea. A large raft that was assembled from the wreckage started out with nearly 80 passengers, but all but one of them were eventually swept into the water.

[Holly Fry]

And only two of the lifeboats reached Newfoundland, carrying a total of 45 men. And two thirds of those men were, I think it's 31 men and 14 as the numbers. Two thirds were crew members and only 14 were passengers.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Captain Luce had tried to save his unconscious son, although as the ship continued to break apart, he was hit in the head by a piece of debris and killed. The captain managed to scramble aboard a paddlebox and use it as a raft, and he and two other men were eventually picked up by the Cambria. The Cambria was captained by John Russell, and it picked them up on September 29th.

[Holly Fry]

So all 109 of the women and children that were aboard were killed, as well as 149 male passengers and 92 crew members. And then I think we should have a note on these numbers, because the actual number of deceased fluctuates a good bit. Amongst accounts, you'll see anywhere from 285 to 351 listed. So the counts, even in women and children, passengers and crew, should not be taken as absolute. Some passengers managed to make it to the Vesta, and they would have been theoretically reported. And others were picked up adrift in the water. But there wasn't always a clear line of record as to what had happened to everybody. So even like the captain's account, which we'll get to in a bit, he lists the 233passengers, but other historical accounts will list different ones. So just keep that in mind that there's some sponginess to the math on this whole thing.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. Well. And at the point that he was rescued, he'd been in the water for a couple of days.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah. So we, we do not. We cannot imagine his mental state. No. Although based on his description, which we'll get to shortly, it was an extremely rough experience, as you would imagine.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Also aboard the ship during this wreck were E.K. collins wife and his children. And they naturally, based on those numbers that we just said, did not survive.

[Holly Fry]

The Vesta did manage to make Port in St. John's three days after the collision. And accounts of the time kind of talked about the great skill of her captain at managing to take that damaged ship into port. But before we get to the next little bit of business and how this affected the Collins line, would you like to take a moment and talk about our sponsors?

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Let's do that.

[Annabe Washable Sofa Advertiser]

Picture it. 1852, a scandal erupts in Charleston. Not over politics, but over a ruined velvet settee. A guest spilled Madeira wine and tried to blame the dog. If only they'd had an annabe Washable. Comfortable, practically drama proof. A modern sofa for lives as messy as history itself. Built with machine washable covers, modular design and customizable comfort, it's made to survive every single spill, splash and social mishap. Starting at just $6.99 and with up to 60% off right now, there's never been a better time to upgrade. So skip the scandal, head to washablesofas.com and relax, knowing history won't repeat itself in your living room. Shop Annabe [e-mail] and get 60% off your new washable sofa. That's washablesofas.com.

[Oregon Home Care Jobs Advertiser]

Youm can make a difference in someone's life, including your own. With a job in home care. These jobs offer flexible schedules, healthcare, retirement options and free training. They also provide paid time off and opportunities for overtime. Visit oregonhomecarejobs.com to learn more and apply. That's oregonhomecarejobs.com.

[Mario Lopez]

Hey, what's up? It's Mario Lopez. Back to school is an exciting time, but it can also be overwhelming. And kids may feel isolated, a vulnerability that human traffickers can exploit. Human Trafficking doesn't always look like what you expect. Everyday moments can become opportunities for someone with bad intentions. Whether you're a parent, teacher, coach or neighbor. Check in, ask questions, Stay connected. Blue Campaign is a national awareness initiative that provides resources to help recognize suspected instances of human trafficking. Learn the signs and how to [e-mail] blue campaign.

[Old Gays Podcast Promoter]

Listen to your elders, honey. You might know them from their viral videos, but now the old Gays pull back the curtain on their brand new podcast, Silver Linings with the Old Gays, brought to you in partnership with iHeart's Ruby Studio and Veeve Healthcare. With over 300 years of experience between them, hosts Robert, Mick, Bill and Jesse serve four lifetimes of wisdom when it comes to love, sex, community and whatever else they've got on the gay Agenda. Listen in to these fabulous friends swap stories exploring how queer life has evolved over the decades and the silver linings they've collected along the way. Each episode dives into hot topics from safe sex and online dating to untangling Gen Z lingo, as well as insights on how music, art and fashion show up in queer culture. So check out Silver Linings, a show about how pride ages like fine wine. Available on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

So let's get back to what happened once people realized the death toll.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah, so as news of this horrible incident reached news outlets and the shore, the disproportionate amount of the crew survivors versus passenger caused a major scandal on both sides of the Atlantic. And it really, really set in motion what was eventually the financial ruin of the Collins Line.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

While the American Maritime Company had initially been a huge threat to the established Cunard Line of Britain, the sinking of the Arctic followed by the disappearance of the Pacific during a voyage in 1856 meant that the Collins Line was basically finished. Despite attempts to revive their reputation with a new and larger vessel named the Adriatic, they went bankrupt just a few years after the Pacific was lost.

[Holly Fry]

And as a point of interest, the Cunard Line is still in business today. They did quite well for themselves and survived. And now we get to Captain Luce's account of what happened.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

So on October 14th of 1854 in Quebec, the captain wrote a letter to E.K. collins to describe the incident and notify him of his family members deaths.

[Holly Fry]

And the letter begins with Dear sir, it becomes my painful duty to inform you of the total loss of the Arctic under my command with many lives and I fear among them must be included your own wife, daughter and son, of whom I took A last leave the moment the ship was going down, without ever expecting to see the light of another day. To give you an account of the heartrending scene, he goes on to say.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

That about 15 minutes after leaving the deck at noon, he heard hard starboard, called out from the officers of the deck.

[Holly Fry]

And immediately after the crash, Luce himself believed that the primary goal that he and the crew should focus on should be the rescue of the people aboard the Vesta. They really did think that the Vesta was the one that was going to go down. And his account says that his first officer took six men and one of the boats with the intent that they were going over to the Vesta to collect people to bring back to the Arctic.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

He also describes the general state of panic and the abandonment of the women and children. He writes, finding the leak gaining on us very fast, notwithstanding all our very powerful efforts to keep her free, I resolved to get the boats ready and as many ladies and children placed in them as possible. But no sooner had the attempt been made than the firemen and others rushed into them in spite of opposition. Seeing this state of things, I ordered the boats astern to be kept in readiness until order could be restored. When, to my dismay, I saw them cut the ropes in the bow and soon disappear astern in the fog. Another boat was broken down by the persons rushing at the davits, and many were precipitated into the sea and drowned. This occurred while I had been engaged in setting the starboard guard boat ready. And placed the second officer in charge. When the same fearful scene as with the first boat was being enacted. Men leaping from the top of the rail 20ft, pushing and maiming those who were in the boat.

[Holly Fry]

So quite clearly not exactly noble or chivalrous behavior. And just as a quick side note, when we reference firemen in this instance, you probably know by context, but they mean the people that are working in the. In the steam engine area, not firemen in the modern sense of people that deal with fires.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right. One of his officers, who was a Mr. Dorian, did try to get a boat filled with women and children loaded. But when an alarm sounded signaling that the ship was sinking, the boat was really hastily shoved off with no oars or other safety equipment.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah, it sounds like he tried to keep the oars out of the boat on purpose so that these gentlemen that were rushing the boats and just trying to take them would not be as tempted to. But as a consequence, those oars got left behind when the boat was shoved off without sort of a proper check. And Luz describes the sinking. And he says, in an instant, about a quarter to 5pm, the ship went down, carrying every soul on board with her. I soon found myself on the surface after a brief struggling with my own helpless child in my arms, and when again I felt myself impelled downwards to a great depth, and before I reached the surface a second time, had nearly perished and lost the hold of my child. As I again struggled to the surface of the water, a most awful and heartrending scene presented itself to my view. Over 200 men, women and children struggling together amidst pieces of wreck of every kind, calling on each other for help and imploring God to assist them. Such an appalling scene. May God preserve me from ever witnessing again.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Luce goes on to give an account of losing his son and watching the others die slowly around him during the days of drift. And it's truly harrowing.

[Holly Fry]

It really is. It's so. It's one of those letters that's clearly written from the point of view of a man who is trying to do his job and write a report and is clearly messed up by the whole thing. And it should be noted that he captained nine other vessels before taking his position on the Arctic, and he had lost only two of them, which was actually quite a good record. He was considered to be a really skillful navigator and a very able captain. And according to his obituary, when he returned to his hometown of Yonkers, New York, after this incident, he, quote, found two long lines of citizens formed through which he walked, receiving warm congratulations and hearty welcome.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

He then went on to work for more than two decades as an inspector for the Great Western Marine Insurance Company. And he died in July of 1879 of heart disease. He was 79 years old.

[Holly Fry]

And we're going to pause one more moment and take another word from a sponsor, and then we're going to talk about some modern analysis of this stuff.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Annabe Washable Sofa Advertiser]

Picture it. 1852, a scandal erupts in Charleston, not over politics, but over a ruined velvet settee. A guest spilled Madeira wine and tried to blame the dog. If only they'd had an Annabe. Washable, comfortable, practically drama proof. A modern sofa for lives as messy as history itself. Built with machine washable covers, modular design and customizable comfort. It's made to stick, survive every spill, splash and social mishap Starting at just $6.99 and with up to 60% off right now, there's never been a better time to upgrade. So skip the scandal, head to washablesofas.com and relax, knowing history won't repeat itself in your living room. Shop Annabe [e-mail] and get 60% off your new washable that's washablesofas.com you can.

[Oregon Home Care Jobs Advertiser]

Make a difference in someone's life, including your own, with a job in home care. These jobs offer flexible schedules, health care, retirement options, and free training. They also provide paid time off and opportunities for overtime. Visit oregonhomecarejobs.com to learn more and apply. That's oregonhomecarejobs.com.

[Mario Lopez]

Hey, what's up? It's Mario Lopez. Back to school is an exciting time, but it can also be overwhelming and kids may feel isolated, a vulnerability that human traffickers can exploit. Human trafficking doesn't always look like what you expect. Everyday moments can become opportunities for someone with bad intentions. Whether you're a parent, teacher, coach or neighbor. Check in, ask questions, stay connected. Blue Campaign is a national awareness initiative that provides resources to help recognize suspected instances of human trafficking. Learn the signs and how to [e-mail] blue campaign.

[Old Gays Podcast Promoter]

Listen to your elders, honey. You might know them from their viral videos, but now the old gays pull back the curtain on their brand new podcast, Silver Linings with the Old Gays, brought to you in partnership with Hart's Ruby Studio and Veeve Healthcare. With over 300 years of experience between them, hosts Robert, Mick, Bill and Jesse serve four lifetimes of wisdom when it comes to love, sex, community and whatever else they've got on the gay agenda. Listen in to these fabulous friends, swap stories exploring how queer life has evolved over the decades, and the silver linings they've collected along the way. Each episode dives into hot topics from safe sex and online dating to untangling Gen Z lingo, as well as insights on how music, art and fashion show up in queer culture. So check out Silver Linings, a show about how pride ages like fine wine, available on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

So now let's look at this whole idea of women and children first.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah, that's one of those things where it's a good question to ask where it came from and sort of how that happened. And it's in an interesting coda to this issue. There was a study that was performed by the Uppsala University in Sweden and it was published in July of 2012 and it suggested that women and children actually have the least likelihood of survival in a maritime disaster.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

This study was co authored by two economists, Mikhail Ellender and Oscar Erickson, and they analyzed data from 18 shipwrecks that happened between 1852 and 2011, they only included the instance that involved at least 100 people with at least 5% surviving and at least 5% dying. And these statistics took into account the fates of more than 15,000 people from 30 countries.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah, and that's. Those numbers kind of gave me a bit of a jolt at first. I'm like 15,000 people, but it's only 18 shipwrecks. And when you're thinking about it in the context of a shipwreck like this, where it's roughly 300ish people, that seems impossible math. But then when you think about the more modern ones, cruise liners, for example, can carry anywhere between 2 to 6,000 people, depending on their size. So that kind of makes up for those what seems like a big number gap, maybe on first look. And the Titanic, which was included in this study, had three times more women survive the incident than men. But this turned out to be the exception rather than the rule. A similar outlier was the HMS Birkenhead, which sank in 1852. And in fact, the Women and Children first rule is sometimes referred to as the Birkenhead drill because that ship sinking off the coast of South Africa is usually recognized as the first time that order was ever given. So all of the women and children that had been aboard the Birkenhead did actually survive, while many soldiers just stood there silently sinking with the ship into shark infested waters.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

According to Ellender and Erickson's findings, women were only half as likely to survive a shipwreck as men. Crew members had an 18.7% greater chance of survival than passengers, and only seven out of 16 captains actually went down with the ship in their data set.

[Holly Fry]

And furthermore, women had the worst survival rates on British vessels, even though the Women and Children first order is documented as having been given much more frequently on British ships than other vessels.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, and today people look at it as sort of a Victorian British sensibility in particular.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Prior to this research, there had been a theory that selfish behavior would more likely erupt on fast sinking ships, while a slower sinking would allow people who were involved to stay calmer and exhibit more socially accepted behavior patterns.

[Holly Fry]

But Elsander and Erickson found that it was actually the captain's behavior, rather than a time sensitive situation that tended to determine the crew's behavior. So in only five of those 18 sinkings that they studied was the Women and Children first order issued by a captain.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Ellender frames this information as an insight into human behavior. He says, although maritime disasters are tragic events, they can contribute to our understanding of how people behave under extreme stress and when it is a matter of life and death.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah. I think it's one of those things where it's easy to kind of vilify people or kind of judge them for their behavior, but I don't. I don't know how I would react in such a moment. I don't think, you know, until you're in it.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

Well, unless you've undergone very specific, like, emergency style training.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right. Well. And in their particular study looks generally at the question of men and women, but not at some of the other factors that influence who makes it off the ship and who doesn't. Like on the Titanic, for example, first class women and children had a pretty astounding survival rate, but women and children in steerage did not.

[Holly Fry]

Not so much. Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

So it was not quite so much women and children first as it was rich women and children first. When it came to the Titanic in particular, I kind of. After I read your notes, I kind of went down this rabbit hole of the whole idea of women and children first and where it comes from and what it means today, since when it first came about was in the 1850s, and that was a very different time in terms of gender relations and sort of the perception of women as both whether women were perceived as weak or strong and whether women were perceived as like, actual autonomous people or objects. Right. And so I kind of went down a crazy rabbit hole of that, and it reminded me, in a way of how I've traveled by ship several times in the past few years. And we always have a safety drill, and the safety drill is always about getting everyone off the ship. It's about, like, every person knowing where they need to go to get on a lifeboat, and every ship having enough lifeboat accommodations for every person on the ship to make it off safely.

[Holly Fry]

Yep.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And the only real reference to children that has come up in the. The ships that I have been on has been that for the parents, if their children are not with them, the parents are to go to their lifeboat station and their children will be brought to them by crew because all the children have to have little wristbands or whatever on saying, this is my lifeboat station. So it's like there are still special accommodations for children, but other accommodations seem to be based on, like, actual threats to people's safety, people who may have a mobility impairment that need to be assisted with getting off the ship and not so much based on gender or class.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah. And it is Also a very different time in terms of now, this is kind of always referenced as part of the Titanic's legacy. Now there are enough lifeboats for everyone.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

They did that on purpose. Yes.

[Holly Fry]

Whereas there were not. That was not standard operating procedure for a very long time.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right.

[Holly Fry]

So it did become a matter of who do we save? And there have been some interesting discussions, if you kind of trawl around the Internet and like maritime interest boards at all, where discussions will come up of, well, women and children are less likely just physically to survive something like hypothermia adrift at sea than men might. So in saying women and children first, are we in fact dooming everyone to die? And that gets into a very interesting arena of discussion and can get very heated very quickly. So if you are not ready for very grown up, angry talk, don't visit those boards.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

No. It definitely does seem to come from a sense of like, chivalry. Yeah. And what we might classify today as benevolent sexism, which we. I don't think we've talked about that on this podcast, but, but we have on our, our prior podcast before talked about the idea that there sometimes sexism is intended to be benevolent, even though it doesn't really play out that way when you follow it to its logical end. So it's framed that way rather than in any kind of practical sense of actually ensuring the survivability of the group.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah. It gets into very interesting stuff. And I like that the study that was done in Sweden to analyze all of this covered such a nice wide range of, of, you know, 1850s to modern day cruise ships.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right.

[Holly Fry]

Because that's a pretty wide variety. For example, now we have enough boats for everybody. But even so, they're finding that still, yeah, men have better survival rate.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Well, and the differences between first class and what used to be called steerage are much different now.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah. Yeah. So that's today's maritime story. We'll have more, I'm sure, but everybody loves a good shipwreck tale and it did. This one is interesting to me because it did bring up so many interesting questions about how people handle panic and fear. And yeah, I can't judge anybody. I don't know what I would do.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Thanks so much for joining us on this Saturday. If you'd like to send us a note, our email address is historypodcastheartradio.com and you can subscribe to the show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Mario Lopez]

Hey, what's up? It's Mario Lopez Back to school is an exciting time, but it can also be overwhelming and kids may feel isolated, a vulnerability that human traffickers can exploit. Human trafficking doesn't always look like what you expect. Everyday moments can become opportunities for someone with bad intentions, whether you're a parent, teacher, coach or neighbor. Check in, ask questions, stay connected. Blue Campaign is a national awareness initiative that provides resources to help recognize suspected instances of human trafficking. Learn the signs and how to [e-mail] blue campaign.

[Oregon Home Care Jobs Advertiser]

Let's be real Life happens. Kids spill, pets shed and accidents are inevitable. Find a sofa that can keep [e-mail] Starting at just $699, our sofas are fully machine washable inside and out so you can say goodbye to stains and head hello to Worry free living. Made with liquid and stain resistant fabrics, they're kid proof, pet friendly and built for everyday life. Plus, changeable fabric covers let you refresh your sofa whenever you want. Need flexibility? Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa anytime to fit your space, whether it's a growing family room or a cozy apartment. Plus, they're earth friendly and trusted by over 200,000 and happy customers. It's time to upgrade to a stress free, mess proof sofa. Visit washablesofas.com today and save that's washablesofas.com offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Danielle Fishel]

This is Danielle Fishel from Pod Meets World. Parents, quick question. When is the last time you won snack time? The other day I handed my son a perfectly portioned Pinterest level snack and he traded it for a Mott's Applesauce pouch. I'm not mad, just impressed. And that's why Mott's no sugar added applesauce pouches are perfect to keep on hand. They're made with real apples packed in a super easy pouch. Perfect for tossing in a lunchbox, keeping in the car or grabbing as you're running out the door. Plus, they're a good source of vitamin C and kids love them. Win win. Make sure your kid wins snack time with Mott's Real Apples Make Real Good applesauce. Learn [e-mail] Ah come on.

[Annabe Washable Sofa Advertiser]

Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.

[IBM AI Agent Advertiser]

Still using yesterday's tech upgrade to the ThinkPad X1 carbon ultralight. Ultra powerful and built for serious productivity with Intel Core Ultra processors, blazing speed and AI powered performance that keeps up with your business, not the other way around.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Whoa.

[Annabe Washable Sofa Advertiser]

This thing moves.

[IBM AI Agent Advertiser]

Stop hitting snooze on new tech win the tech search at least lenovo.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Com.

[IBM AI Agent Advertiser]

Unlock AI experiences with the ThinkPad X1 carbon powered by Intel Core Ultra processors so you can work, create and boost productivity all on one device.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

This is an iHeart podcast.