The Rendition of Anthony Burns, Part 2

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Stuff You Missed in History Class
Episode: The Rendition of Anthony Burns, Part 2
Hosts: Tracy V. Wilson and Holly Frey
Date: February 11, 2026

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Overview

This episode (Part 2) continues the harrowing story of Anthony Burns, a young man who escaped enslavement in Virginia, only to face a dramatic and highly publicized fugitive slave trial in Boston in 1854. The episode follows the legal proceedings, abolitionist actions, riotous public response, and the deep, long-term ramifications for Burns, Massachusetts, and the United States in the years leading up to the Civil War.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Recap of Part One and Setting the Scene

• [02:28] Tracy: Reminds listeners that Burns escaped enslavement in Virginia and fled to Boston, where he was ultimately discovered by his enslaver, Charles F. Suttle, and arrested by Deputy Marshal Asa O. Butman.
• False Charges: Burns was arrested under the guise of a false jewelry store robbery accusation to keep his detention quiet and avoid spectacle.

Burns’s Initial Detainment and Legal Identity

• [03:25] Matt: Suttle and Brent confront Burns, asking why he ran away; Burns downplays his intent to escape but confirms familiarity with Suttle ("You have always given me 12 and a half cents once a year")—later used as identification evidence.
• [04:28] Tracy & [05:00] Matt: Guards recount the fate of Thomas Sims, another captured fugitive, as psychological warfare to demoralize Burns.

The Courthouse Hearing and Legal Context

• [07:05] Tracy: Authorities’ secrecy kept the arrest relatively quiet, avoiding immediate public outcry.
• [07:33] Matt: Introduction of Richard H. Dana, Jr., a prominent abolitionist attorney, who tried to represent Burns pro bono.
  • Quote: Burns, initially refusing help: "It will be of no use. They have got me." - Anthony Burns [08:11]
• [09:03] Tracy: Highlights the legal complexity: Massachusetts state law clashed with federal mandates, and Commissioner Edward G. Loring presided, acting as a federal, not state, official.

Early Legal Proceedings

• [09:59] Matt: Dana, believing Burns was paralyzed by fear, urged Loring to allow proper counsel.
• [10:37] Tracy & [11:00] Matt: Burns, confused and intimidated, agreed to a delay so he could decide about legal representation; the hearing was postponed until May 27.

Mistreatment and Psychological Tactics

• [11:51] Matt: Guards attempted to coax incriminating statements from Burns, sometimes through deceit (asking if Suttle had raised or bought him), but Burns was wary.
• [12:34] Tracy: Describes a failed attempt by guards to get Burns to write a letter clearing Suttle of mistreatment; a visiting minister smartly intervened, and with quick thinking, Burns destroyed the letter before it could be used against him.

Outside Agitation and Vigilance Committee Plans

• [17:12] Tracy: The integrated Vigilance Committee begins planning Burns’s liberation, holding secret meetings and debating how and when to act, reminiscent of earlier rescues like Shadrach Minkins.
• [19:30] Matt: Calls for justice lead to a massive public meeting (2,000–5,000 attendees) at Faneuil Hall on May 26.
  • Quote: "No man's freedom is safe unless all men are free." - Samuel Gridley Howe, presenting resolutions [20:02]

The Attempted Courthouse Break-In and Its Consequences

• [20:43] Matt & [21:20] Tracy: Despite the committee's plan to intervene later, some activists attacked the courthouse directly. Unitarian minister Thomas Wentworth Higginson and others briefly breached the doors. In the ensuing chaos, Deputy Marshal James Batchelder was fatally wounded—a turning point that led to a heavy federal crackdown.

Legal Maneuvers, Troops in Boston, and Failed Negotiations

• [22:32] Matt & [23:16] Tracy: With federal troops now guarding the courthouse (by order of President Franklin Pierce), Burns’s legal team attempted to force a jury trial via a writ of personal replevin—unsuccessfully.
• [24:44] Tracy: Burns’s defense tried to poke holes in witness testimony, e.g., demonstrating Brent lied about seeing Burns in Richmond.
• [25:43–27:34] Tracy & Matt: Local ministers and abolitionist donors attempted to negotiate Burns’s purchase and freedom ($1,200 total), but District Attorney Benjamin Hallett torpedoed the deal, citing government reimbursement claims and unresolved issues around Deputy Batchelder’s death.

The Broader Political Moment: Kansas-Nebraska Act

• [28:20] Tracy: As Burns’s case unfolded, President Pierce signed the Kansas-Nebraska Act on May 30, 1854, increasing anti-slavery fervor.
  • Quote: "We went to bed one night old-fashioned conservative compromise, union Whigs and waked up stark mad abolitionists." - Amos Adams Lawrence [29:10]

The Grim Outcome: Burns is Sent Back

• [33:31] Tracy: On June 1, 1854, Loring ordered Burns returned to Virginia, sending shockwaves through Boston’s increasingly abolitionist public.
  • Quote: "Men who were hostile or unpleasant in 1851 now are cordial and complimentary." - Richard H. Dana Jr. [34:31]
• [36:13] Matt: Federal authorities organized an unprecedented military escort—over 2,000 troops for one man’s transfer.
• [36:56] Tracy: Estimated 50,000 Bostonians lined the streets in protest, businesses draped in mourning; a coffin labeled "The Funeral of Liberty" hung above the street.
• [37:45] Matt: The federal government’s expenses for this singular act estimated at $40,000 (over $1.5 million today).

The Aftermath for Burns

• [38:48] Tracy & [39:23] Matt: Upon arrival in Virginia, Burns was imprisoned in miserable, punitive conditions—hot, cramped attic, meager food, and constant shackling.
• [40:24] Matt & [41:03] Tracy: He tried smuggling letters to allies, but all were intercepted.
• [41:47] Matt & [42:11] Tracy: Suttle ultimately had Burns sold to a North Carolina enslaver, David McDaniel, for $905, who spirited him away at night due to his notoriety.

Burns’s Eventual Emancipation and Later Life

• [42:11] Tracy: Through persistent abolitionist fundraising and negotiation, Burns was finally bought and freed in 1855. He returned to Boston, was celebrated at Tremont Temple, and gave his account to Charles Emory Stevens, who would publish Burns’s biography.

• [43:49] Tracy & [44:54] Tracy–[46:50] Matt: Burns struggled with the idea of profiting from his story, declining lucrative offers such as from PT Barnum. He focused on ministry and education (Oberlin College scholarship). His correspondence with his old church in Virginia includes stirring defenses of self-liberation and moral law.

  • Quote: "God made me a man, not a slave, and gave me the same right to myself...You can do no more. You cannot exclude me from heaven. You cannot hinder my daily fellowship with God." - Anthony Burns [44:54, 46:50]

• [46:50] Tracy: Burns ultimately settled in Canada, as racist state laws in the U.S. (e.g., Indiana’s black exclusion) barred ministry opportunities. He died of tuberculosis in 1862, aged just 28. A 2000 restoration renewed his grave at St. Catherine's Cemetery.

  • Quote: "[His] gentle, unassuming and yet manly bearings secured him many friends. His removal is felt to be a great loss, and his place will not soon be filled." - St. Catharines obituary [47:31]

Broader Legal and Political Repercussions

• [47:51] Tracy: Commissioner Loring suffered professional repercussions for his role; he lost academic and judicial posts amid outrage, though was later appointed to the federal bench by President Buchanan.
• [48:41] Matt & [49:27] Tracy: Massachusetts enacted a very strict personal liberty law in 1855, directly limiting the Fugitive Slave Act’s application, including mandatory jury trials and shifting burdens of proof to enslavers—effectively ending fugitive slave renditions from the state.
  • “Anthony Burns was the last person to face a rendition hearing… in Massachusetts.” [49:27]

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Burns, resigned and frightened:
  "It will be of no use. They have got me." – Anthony Burns, refusing representation [08:11]
• Samuel Gridley Howe at the public meeting:
  "No man's freedom is safe unless all men are free." [20:02]
• Amos Adams Lawrence on abolitionist transformation:
  "We went to bed one night old-fashioned conservative compromise, union Whigs and waked up stark mad abolitionists." [29:10]
• Anthony Burns’s powerful declaration against slavery:
  "God made me a man, not a slave, and gave me the same right to myself…" [44:54]
• Boston in mourning at Burns’s rendition:
  "A coffin draped in black cloth was suspended over the street...the Funeral of Liberty." [36:56]
• St. Catharines obituary:
  "His gentle, unassuming and yet manly bearings secured him many friends. His removal is felt to be a great loss..." [47:31]

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [02:28] Recap and context of Anthony Burns’s story
• [07:33]–[08:11] Arrival of Richard H. Dana, Jr., and first offer of legal support
• [17:12]–[20:02] Vigilance Committee planning, public outcry, and Faneuil Hall meeting
• [21:20]–[22:14] Courthouse breach, Deputy Batchelder’s death, and federal intervention
• [22:32]–[28:20] Prolonged legal battles, military occupation, failed negotiations
• [33:31]–[36:56] Final order to return Burns, massive public protest, “Funeral of Liberty”
• [38:48]–[42:11] Burns’s ordeal in Virginia and ultimate sale to North Carolina
• [42:11]–[46:50] Emancipation, brief ministry, and stirring letters on freedom
• [47:51]–[49:27] Broader impact: Loring’s ouster and new personal liberty laws

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Tone and Style

Tracy and Holly relay the narrative in a clear, empathetic, and informative style, highlighting the immense human cost and profound injustice of the Fugitive Slave Act while grounding the episode in vivid details, contemporary voices, and the powerful words of Anthony Burns himself.

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Conclusion

This episode powerfully encapsulates how the tragedy of Anthony Burns’s forced return to slavery became a catalyst—transforming Massachusetts law, public sentiment, and the broader national conversation about slavery in the years before the Civil War. Through primary voices, legal intricacy, and the human story of Burns, Tracy and Holly illuminate not just “stuff you missed in history class,” but why history like this matters.

Transcript

[Tracy V. Wilson]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.

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I'm Bowen Yang.

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And I'm Matt Rogers. During this season of the Two Guys.

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Five Rings podcast, in the lead up to the Milan Cortina 2026 Winter Olympic Games, we've been joined by some of our friends.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Hi, Bowen. Hi, Matt.

[Matt Rogers]

Hey, Elmo.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Hey, Matt.

[Bowen Yang]

Hey, Bowen.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Hi, Cookie.

[Bowen Yang]

Hi.

[Matt Rogers]

Now the Winter Olympic Games are underway and we are in Italy to give you experiences from our hearts to your ears. Listen to Two Guys Five Rings on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Over the last couple years, didn't we learn that the folding chair was invented by black people because of what happened in Alabama Montgomery Brawl? This Black History Month, the podcast Selective Ignorance with Mandy B unpacks black history and culture with comedy, clarity and conversations that shake the status quo. The Crown act in New York was signed in July of 2019, and that is a bill that was passed to prohibit discrimination based on hairstyles. Associ to hear this and more, listen to Selective Ignorance with Mandy B. From the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts, you can scroll.

[Bowen Yang]

The headlines all day and still feel empty. I'm Ben Higgins, and if youf Can Hear Me is where culture meets the soul. Honest conversations about identity, loss, purpose, peace, faith, and everything in between. Celebrities, thinkers, everyday people. Some have answers, most are still figuring it out. And if you've ever felt like there has to be more to the story, show is for you. Listen to if you can Hear me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Matt Rogers]

Hey, I'm Jay Shetty, host of the On Purpose podcast.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

On a recent episode, I sat down.

[Matt Rogers]

With Nick Jonas, singer, songwriter, actor and global superstar. I went blank.

[Bowen Yang]

I hit a bad note, and then.

[Matt Rogers]

I couldn't kind of recover.

[Bowen Yang]

And I built up this idea that music and being a musician was my whole identity.

[Matt Rogers]

I had to sort of relearn who I was. If you took this thing away, who am I?

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or.

[Matt Rogers]

Wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Stuff youf Missed in History Class, a production of iHeartradio.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Tracy V. Wilson.

[Matt Rogers]

And I'm Holly Fry.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

This is the second part of our two parter about Anthony Burns, inspired by how frequently I have seen a quote about him on social media over the last several months. In part one, we talked about his life in Virginia up until about the age of 20, during which he was enslaved. Then in 1854, Burns escaped aboard a ship bound for Boston, where we left off. His enslaver, Charles F. Suttle, had learned where Burns was and had filed the necessary paper to have him pursued as a fugitive slave catcher. And Deputy Marshal Asa O. Butman had arrested Burns under false pretenses on the evening of Wednesday, May 24, 1854, saying that Burns had been accused of robbing a jewelry store. Burns was taken to the courthouse and held in the jury room, where he was kept under guard.

[Matt Rogers]

While Anthony Burns was being held in the jury room at the courthouse, Charles F. Sutle and William Brent, ARR. And they were let in to see him. As we talked about in part one. Burns had previously worked for Brent for a couple of years, and Brent was managing his hiring out in Richmond, so Brent knew Burns and could identify him. Subtle asked Burns why he had run away, and Burns told him he had fallen asleep on board the vessel where he had been working, and when he woke up, the ship had set sail and carried him off. This, of course, had some elements of the truth, but without an admission that he had been trying to escape.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Then Suttle asked Burns whether he had always been good to him, whether Suttle had given Burns money when he needed it, and Burns answered, quote, you have always given me 12 and a half cents once a year. This statement would later be used as evidence that Burns knew Suttle and that he was the fugitive that Suttle was seeking.

[Matt Rogers]

Since it was late, Burns was held in the jury room overnight to appear before the commissioner. On the morning of May 25, Butman and several of his men stayed in the room to guard him. They had dinner delivered, which they did not share with him. They amused themselves by playing cards and by telling Burns about Thomas Sims, who had been held in the same room after being arrested on April 4, 1851, about six months after the Fugitive Slave act of 1850 was signed into law.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Thomas Sims had been enslaved in Georgia, and he was about 17 when he escaped to Boston by stowing away on a ship. Asa Butman had been one of the men involved in his capture. Commissioner George Tickner Curtis had presided over the hearing and had ruled in favor of SIMS's enslaver. About 300 armed police and members of the city watch had escorted Sims to Long Wharf. He was placed aboard a brig called the Acorn, which set sail for Savannah with him aboard on April 12, returning him to slavery.

[Matt Rogers]

Abolitionists had made a plan to try to liberate Sims from the courthouse, which they had successfully done in the case of Shadrach Minkins just a couple of months before. In Minkins case, a group of black men led by Lewis Hayden had burst into the courtroom during his hearing and rescued him. Afterward, Minkins had been moved from one hiding place to another in and around Boston before being successfully taken to Quebec.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Burns's jailers did not tell him about Menken's successful escape, but that escape is probably why the plan to rescue Thomas Sims had failed. After the liberation of Shadrach Menkens, authorities had prepared for Sims's hearing by draping chains around the courthouse, placing the courthouse under guard, barring all the windows and doors, and garrisoning a militia nearby at Faneuil Hall.

[Matt Rogers]

Hearing about someone whose story was so similar to his own, who was so close to his own age, who had been held in the same room and then returned to slavery even after people tried to free him, was as intended, demoralizing for Anthony Burns. When his guards were brought breakfast in the morning, they offered to share it with him. But after all of that, he had no appetite. He was placed in shackles before being taken to the courtroom where U.S. marshal Watson Freeman posted guards around him.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Authorities had managed to keep Burns arrest pretty quiet. That was one of the reasons that Butman had told Burns he was being arrested for robbing a jewelry store. They thought that if they told him the real reason he was being arrested that he would probably fight back. He might make a much bigger spectacle. He might even be killed in the process. So by the morning of May 25, Burns arrest had not really raised much of an outcry.

[Matt Rogers]

But attorney Richard H. Dana, Jr. Was passing by the courthouse that morning and heard people talking about what was going on. Dana was a prominent abolitionist. He had helped establish the Free Soil Party and was a member of the Boston Vigilance Committee. Dana had previously helped to defend both Thomas Sims and Shadrach Minkins. He did other anti slavery legal work as well, and he refused to take payment for any of it. He was also well known because of his 1850 memoir, Two Years before the Mast, detailing his time on a merchant ship.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Dana made his way into the courtroom and he offered to represent Anthony Burns. At first Burns refused, saying, quote, it will be of no use. They have got me. Byrnes also thought that if he did anything other than just comply with what he was told to do, that things would be much harder for him when he was inevitably returned to Virginia.

[Matt Rogers]

As word of Burns arrest started to Spread around Boston. More people started arriving at the courthouse, including other prosecutors, prominent abolitionists. A minister named Theodore Parker approached Burns, told him who he was, and again asked if he wanted representation. Burns answered, quote, I shall have to go back. Mr. Suttle knows me. Brent knows me. If I must go back, I want to go back as easy as I can.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

United States Commissioner Edward G. Loring was presiding over this hearing, and his participation in this was complicated. He was acting as a federal commissioner, but he was also a Massachusetts probate judge. Massachusetts had passed a personal Liberty Law in 1843 after efforts to return a man named George Latimer to slavery. This law prohibited state officials from arresting and detaining, quote, fugitives from service. So Loring's interpretation was that he was acting in his service federal capacity for this hearing, not in his state capacity, which would have prohibited him from being involved. This same argument was also being made for the Suffolk county courthouse where Burns was being held and where this hearing was taking place. It was a county courthouse, but it was being used also for federal cases.

[Matt Rogers]

Although Burns had virtually no rights guaranteed to him under the Fugitive slave Act of 1850, Loring had some leeway in how he conducted the proceedings. When he entered the courtroom, Dana approached him regarding his offer to represent Burns. Dana said that he thought Burns was terrified, truly paralyzed with fear and, quote, in a condition wholly unfit to act for himself. He suggested that Lauren call Burns to the bench and try to figure out what his actual wishes were, rather than questioning him while he was sitting right next to Suttle, whose presence was obviously intimidating.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Loring started the hearing. Suttle's attorneys were Seth J. Thomas and Edward G. Parker. One of them read the warrant for Burns's arrest, along with the document that had been issued in Virginia finding that Burns was settle's property. William Brent was called to the stand as a witness that Burns was the man who was named in these documents.

[Matt Rogers]

There was really no legal requirement for a more thorough proceeding than this or for Burns to have any kind of legal representation. But at this, Dana stood up. He had no authority to represent Burns in any official capacity, so he addressed Loring as a friend of the court and made a motion that Burns be allowed to have counsel. Suttle's attorneys objected to this, but then another attorney, Charles M. Ellis, made a similar motion to Dana's commissioner.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Loring asked Burns to be brought to the bench and for his shackles to be removed. He asked whether Burns wanted to make a defense. When Burns did not answer, Loring asked if he would like a delay for a day or two to make a decision. Burns ultimately said that he did, and Loring postponed the proceedings until May 27.

[Matt Rogers]

Burns continued to be held in the courthouse, in the jury room, manacled and guarded by four men. In the words of his biographer, Charles Emory Stevens, quote, the interval was industriously employed by these tools of the slaveholder in the livery of the federal government in attempts to lead Burns into making admissions fatal to himself. For example, quote, they plied him with questions which quietly, assuming the fact that he was subtle slave, looked toward information on unimportant points. Thus they inquired whether subtle raised or bought him. In this instance, Burns proved too shrewd for them and told them to find out some other way.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

He wasn't always shrewd, though. At one point one of the guards told him that word around town was that Suttle had mistreated him. The state of his hand from when he had been injured working at a sawmill in his early teens was seen as proof of this alleged mistreatment. The guard said that Suttle was very annoyed by this and that it might help things go better for Burns if he wrote a letter setting the record straight. So Burns did this, and then a minister who came to visit him immediately realized what was going on, that this letter was going to be incriminating evidence, and demanded that it be destroyed. The guards, of course, refused to destroy the letter, but then Byrnes said that he had something to add to it. They gave it back to him. He destroyed it himself.

[Matt Rogers]

We will talk about what was happening outside the courthouse during this delay after we pause for a sponsor break.

[Bowen Yang]

What do you do when the headlines don't explain what's happening inside of you? I'm Ben Higgins, and if you can hear me is where culture meets the soul, a place for real conversation. Each episode, I sit down with people from all walks of life, celebrities, thinkers, and everyday folks. And we go deeper than the polished story. We talk about what drives us, what shapes us, and what gives us hope. We get honest about the big stuff. Identity when you don't recognize yourself anymore. Loss that changes you purpose. When success isn't enough. Peace when your mind won't slow down. Faith when it's complicated. Some guests have answers. Most are still figuring it out. If you've ever felt like there has to be more to the story, this show is for you. Listen to if youf Can Hear me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Bowen Yang.

[Matt Rogers]

And I'm Matt Rogers. During this season of the Two Five.

[Bowen Yang]

Rings podcast, in the lead up to the Milan Cortina 2026 Winter Olympic Games, we've been joined by some of our friends.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Hi, Bud. Hi, Matt.

[Matt Rogers]

Hey, Elmo.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Hey, Matt.

[Bowen Yang]

Hey, Bowen.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Hi, Cookie.

[Bowen Yang]

Hi.

[Matt Rogers]

Now. Now the Winter Olympic Games are underway and we are in Italy to give you experiences from our hearts to your ears. Listen to Two Guys Five Rings on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In the middle of the night, Saskia.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Awoke in a haze. Her husband Mike was on his laptop.

[Matt Rogers]

What was on his screen would change Saskia's life forever. I said, I need you to tell me exactly what you're doing.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And immediately the mask came off. You're supposed to be safe. That's your home. That's your husband. To keep this secret for so many years, he's like a seasoned pro. This is a story about the end.

[Matt Rogers]

Of a marriage, but it's also the story of one woman who was done living in the dark.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

You're a dangerous person who preys on vulnerable and trusting people. You're a predator. Michael Levengood. Listen to Betrayal Season 5 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the A Building.

[Bowen Yang]

I'm Hans Charles.

[Matt Rogers]

I'm inalec Lumumba. It's 1969. Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr have both been assassinate and black America was at a breaking point. Rioting and protest broke out on an.

[Bowen Yang]

Unprecedented scale in Atlanta, Georgia. At Martin's alma mater, Morehouse College, the students had their own protest. It featured two prominent figures in black history, Martin Luther King Sr. And a young student, Samuel L. Jackson. To be in what we really thought was a revolution.

[Matt Rogers]

I mean, people were dying.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

1968, the murder of Dr. King, which traumatized everyone. The FBI had a role in the murder of a Black Panther leader in Chicago.

[Matt Rogers]

This story is about protest. It echoes in today's world far more than it should, and it will blow your mind.

[Bowen Yang]

Listen to the A building on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

While Anthony Burns was being held in the courthouse, Boston's Committee of Vigilance was working on a plan to free him. This racially integrated committee had been formed after the passage of the Fugitive slave Act of 1850 to fight back against the act and to try to protect people who were affected by it. The committee monitored Southerners who arrived in Boston to figure out if they were there to apprehend somebody or for some other reason. If they heard somebody had escaped and boarded a ship to Boston, they would try to send a smaller vessel to intercept that ship before it got to the harbor. Sometimes they would make up a purportedly legal reason that they needed to get aboard. They would then try to get that person to shore outside of town rather than in Boston harbor, so that they had a better chance of getting away. The committee also tried to shelter and protect people who arrived in Massachusetts as fugitives. So they had a lot of connections to the Underground Railroad. They had been involved in the efforts to rescue Thomas Sims and Shadrach Minkins in 1851.

[Matt Rogers]

The committee and other activists in Boston started working on a plan as soon as they heard Burns was being held at the courthouse. They also set around the clock watch on the courthouse in case authorities tried to move Byrnes somewhere else or to hold his hearing in the middle of the night. To try to avoid spectators, members of.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

The committee held secret meetings at Faneuil hall and Tremont Temple, and two prevailing thoughts emerged. One group thought that they should break into the courthouse and remove Burns by force as soon as possible, as had been done with Shadrach Minkins. Others thought that they should wait until the commissioner announced his decision, and if Burns was going to be returned to slavery, then they should rally support from all over Boston, fill the streets when he was being taken to the harbor. They would make themselves into a physical human barrier so they could get him to safety in the ensuing chaos. Ultimately, the committee voted in favor of trying to rescue Burns after the hearing when he was being taken to the harbor, not trying to get him out of the courthouse at itself.

[Matt Rogers]

A public meeting was also planned, with announcements in newspapers and notices posted all over the city that read, a man kidnapped. Public meetings at Faneuil hall will be held this Friday evening, May 26th at 7 o' clock to secure justice for a man claimed as a slave by a Virginia kidnapper and now imprisoned in Boston Courthouse in defiance of the laws of Massachusetts, shall he be plunged into the hell of Virginia slavery by a Mass. Massachusetts judge of probate.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Somewhere between 2,000 and 5,000 people attended this public meeting. I saw both of those numbers. One of the speakers was George R. Russell, former mayor of Roxbury, who said in part, quote, the boast of the slaveholder is that he will catch his slaves under the shadow of Bunker Hill. We have made compromises until we find that compromise is concession and concession is degradation. Samuel Gridley Howe also presented a set of resolutions that were adopted by the meeting including no man's freedom is safe unless all men are free.

[Matt Rogers]

Even though the Vigilance Committee voted to rescue Byrnes after the hearing, some of the advocates for breaking him out of the courthouse went ahead with that plan, including getting some axes to try to break down the doors. After the public meeting at Faneuil hall, word spread that people were attacking the courthouse and thousands of people arrived on the scene. Someone grabbed a beam from a nearby construction site to use as a battering ram. As all of this was happening, Burns was placed in the corner of the jury room farthest away from what was taking place outside.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

The people who were attacking the courthouse doors did manage very briefly to get through. One of them and Unitarian minister Thomas Wentworth Higginson and another man both wound up inside the building. Not for very long, though. They were quickly forced outside again. But during this struggle, several people were injured and 24 year old Deputy Marshal James Bachelder was fatally wounded. He was either shot or stabbed and he bled to death within minutes.

[Matt Rogers]

It is not clear exactly what happened. Different physicians who examined the body came to different conclusions and multiple people believed that they had either fired the fatal shot or had accidentally stabbed him. It is not even clear whether Bachelder was struck by one of the attackers trying to get into the building or one of the people trying to defend the building.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

The U.S. marshal called for federal troops to restore order. This included Marines from Fort Warren and the Charlestown Navy Yard. Multiple people were arrested and over the next couple of days nine people were charged with murder, including Higginson. Although none of these charges ever came.

[Matt Rogers]

To trial, on May 27, Burns hearing resumed and President Franklin Pierce ordered federal troops to guard the courthouse. Dana and Ellis had been joined by Robert Morris, who we talked about in our episode on Charles Sumner. Morris was one of the first black attorneys in the United States. They were trying to find a way to shift the legal proceedings from the administrative hearing that was outlined under the Fugitive slave Act of 1850 to an actual trial with a jury. This would not only give Burns rights and protections he was not entitled to under the Fugitive Slave act, but it could also potentially lead to a case that could challenge the constitutionality of the Fugitive Slave Act.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

One of the things they tried to do was to file a writ of personal replevin, which is somewhat similar to a writ of habeas corpus. With a writ of habeas corpus, authorities who are keeping someone in custody have to produce that person in court. In Massachusetts in 1854, a writ of habeas corpus did not necessarily result in A jury trial, but a writ of personal replevin did at that trial. Under the way this writ worked, it was up to the defendant, meaning in this case the authorities that were detaining someone to prove that detention was valid. So the hope was to use a writ of personal replevin to force Suttle and his attorneys to prove their case in front of a jury.

[Matt Rogers]

This process took days, during which they got another postponement of the hearing. The coroner had been tasked with serving the writ, and the first time he tried to do so, the US Marshal simply refused, saying that Burns was being held under the legal process outlined in the Fugitive Slave Act. The federal troops who were stationed around the courthouse were also trying to prohibit access to the building. A number of Boston officials, including some of the Board of Aldermen, met with the Chief of Police to figure out how to serve the writ without the interference of federal troops.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Burns attorneys were also trying to gather evidence that could raise reasonable doubts if this did get in front of a jury like Burns had been identified based on a scar on his face and the one on his hand from when he was injured as a teen. But when William Brent testified about Burns identity, he said that he had seen Burns in Richmond at the end of March. That was impossible. At the end of March, Burns was already in Boston, and there were multiple witnesses from Boston who could attest to that.

[Matt Rogers]

As the public furor over Burns's detention increased around Boston, the troops who were guarding him started saying that they were fearing for their lives. Some reported taking indirect routes to and from the courthouse with the hope of avoiding demonstrators. Subtle moved from the ground floor of his lodgings to the attic and went around with a bodyguard made up of Harvard students from the South.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Negotiations to secure Burns's freedom were also going on outside the courtroom. And on Saturday, May 27, Suttle agreed to sell him for twelve hundred dollars. Even though the ultimate purpose of this sale would be to free him, it would have been illegal in Massachusetts. Even so, the Rev. Leonard A. Grimes, pastor at Twelfth Baptist Church, started working on raising that money. He got subscriptions from wealthy people around Boston, including one that was basically a $400 loan to just enable this transaction to happen. But they would need to raise that money to return it to the donor. After the sale was over, everything seemed.

[Matt Rogers]

To be lining up for Burns to be freed, and Suttle signed paperwork agreeing to this sale. But as they were in the US Marshal's office finishing the negotiations, District Attorney Benjamin Hallett arrived and refused to honor that sale. He argued that if Subtle sold Burns to abolitionists, the US Government would have no opportunity to recoup the expenses that had already gone into these proceedings. And there would also be no opportunity for restitution in James Batchelder's death.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Arguing over this stretched past midnight, at which point it was Sunday being the Sabbath and Commissioner Loring told everyone they would have to leave and reconvene on Monday morning, May 29th. When they did reconvene that Monday, settle said his offer to sell Burns had only been good for May 27 and it had expired. When that matter was not settled before midnight, Suttle said he would still sell Burns, but only after the hearing was over and had been found in his favor and he had returned to Virginia.

[Matt Rogers]

Although Burns attorneys were not successful in their efforts to get him a jury trial, he did have a longer hearing than the simple administrative hearing that the law required. Over the next two days, attorneys on both sides submitted their evidence for and against Anthony Burns. Richard Dana also delivered a four hour closing argument in which he pointed out various contradictions in the testimonies of Suttle and Brent and their legal documents from Virginia and and spelled out arguments Loring could use to justify freeing Byrnes. This included arguing that since Brent was the one responsible for Burns when he left Virginia, Suttle didn't even have standing to initiate the proceedings to have him returned.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, this whole argument was very explicit. It was like you can say these things. It is a compelling legal argument to find in Burns favorite. As all of this was happening, on May 30, 1854, President Franklin Pierce signed the Kansas Nebraska act into law. We talked about this act in our episode on Charles Sumner last year as well. Under the Missouri Compromise of 1820, a dividing line had been established with slavery outlawed in new states and territories north of that line. But the Kansas Nebraska act repealed that compromise, leaving the question of whether slavery would be allowed in the newly formed territories of Kansas and Nebraska up to popular sovereignty or voting.

[Matt Rogers]

Abolitionists in Massachusetts and elsewhere were outraged over the Kansas Nebraska act, which had the potential to allow slavery in places where it had previously been illegal. And it made a lot of the people who were opposed to Anthony Burns being returned to slavery even angrier. The following day, June 1, Amos Adams Lawrence wrote a letter to his father in law, Giles Richards, that said in part, quote, we went to bed one night old fashioned conservative compromise, union wigs and waked up stark mad abolitionists.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

We'll get to what happened next after a sponsor break.

[Bowen Yang]

What do you do when the headlines don't Explain what's happening inside of you. I'm Ben Higgins, and if you can hear me is where culture meets the soul. A place for real conversation. Each episode, I sit down with people from all walks of life. Celebrities, thinkers, and everyday folks. And we go deeper than the polished story. We talk about what drives us, what shapes us, and what gives us hope. We get honest about the big stuff. Identity when you don't recognize yourself anymore. Loss that changes you. Purpose when success isn't enough. Peace when your mind won't slow down. Faith when it's complicated. Some guests have answers. Most are still figuring it out. If you've ever felt like there has to be more to the story, this show is for you. Listen to if youf Can Hear me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Bowen Yang.

[Matt Rogers]

And I'm Matt Rogers. During this season of the Two Guys.

[Bowen Yang]

Five Rings podcast, in the lead up to the Milan Cortina 2026 Winter Olympic Games, we've been joined by some of our friends.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Hi, Bowen. Hi, Matt.

[Matt Rogers]

Hey, Elmo.

[Bowen Yang]

Hey, Matt. Hey, Bowen. Hi, Cookie. Hi.

[Matt Rogers]

Now the Winter Olympic Games are underway and we are in Italy to give you experiences from our hearts to your ears. Listen to Two Guys Five Rings on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In the middle of the night, Saskia.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Awoke in a haze. Her husband Mike was on his laptop.

[Matt Rogers]

What was on his screen would change Saskia's life forever. I said, I need you to tell me exactly what you're doing.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And immediately the mask came off. You're supposed to be safe. That's your home. That's your husband. To keep this secret for so many years, he's like a seasoned pro. This is a story about the end of a marriage, but it's also the.

[Matt Rogers]

Story of one woman who was done living in the dark.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

You're a dangerous person who preys on vulnerable and trusting people. Your creditor, Michael Levengood. Listen to Betrayal Season 5 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Bowen Yang]

Welcome to the A building. I'm Hans Charles.

[Matt Rogers]

I'm inalec Lumumba. It's 1969. Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr have both been assassinate. And black America was at a breaking point. Rioting and protest broke out on an.

[Bowen Yang]

Unprecedented scale in Atlanta, Georgia. At Martin's alma mater, Morehouse College, the students had their own protest. It featured two prominent figures in black history. Martin Luther King Sr. And a young student, Samuel L. Jackson, to be in what we really thought was a revolution.

[Matt Rogers]

I mean, people were dying.

[Bowen Yang]

1968, the murder of Dr. King, which traumatized everyone.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

The FBI had a role in the murder of a Black Panther leader in Chicago.

[Matt Rogers]

This story is about protest. It echoes in today's world far more than it should, and it will blow your mind.

[Bowen Yang]

Listen to the A building on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

On June 1, 1854, Commissioner Edward Loring ordered Anthony Burns to be returned to slavery in Virginia. And while there were, of course, pro slavery people in Boston, a significant part of the population was outraged. This was a shift from the public sentiment in 1851, when Shadrach Minkins had been freed from the courthouse and taken to Canada and when Thomas Sims had been returned to enslavement in 1851. The Fugitive Slave act had been controversial, but more people had supported it or thought it was necessary to keep the Union intact. This shift is something Burns's attorney, Richard H. Jayna Jr. Remarked on saying, quote, men who were hostile or unpleasant in 1851 now are cordial and complimentary. And the prevailing talk among merchants and lawyers is that of hostility to slavery and the slave power.

[Matt Rogers]

Amos Adams Lawrence, for example, was from a family whose wealth had come from the textile industry, and that meant it was reliant on southern cotton. He had written a letter in 1851 expressing a willingness to lynch the people who had freed Shadrach Minkins. In addition to the sentiments expressed in the letter we've quoted in these episodes, in 1854, he offered to pay all of Dana's legal expenses. Not long after this, he would also pour huge amounts of money into anti slavery efforts in Kansas. The city of Lawrence, Kansas, is named for him.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, I read a couple of articles that kind of characterized him as being radicalized by the case of Anthony Burns. The federal government, of course, wanted to ensure that the Fugitive Slave act was upheld and that Burns was successfully put on a ship and sent back to slavery in Virginia. Once again, federal troops were tasked with doing this. On June 2, more than 2,000 federal soldiers and marines were stationed around Boston. City police and Boston militia also lined the streets. A 1925 piece by Canadian historian Fred Landon described the law enforcement and military presence that day. This way, quote, in the guard that marched that day through the streets of Boston surrounding Burns, there was a regiment of artillery, a platoon of US Marines, the marshal's civic posse of 125 men, close in about the prisoner, two further platoons of Marines immediately behind with a field piece and yet another platoon of Marines to guard it.

[Matt Rogers]

The city of Boston had a population of about 137,000 people in 1854, and an estimated. An estimated 50,000 of those people took to the streets on June 2 to protest the rendition of Anthony Burns. People yelled things like shame and kidnappers at the federal troops who escorted him to the harbor. Some threw bricks and rocks, and there were a number of skirmishes along the route, some of them resulting in injuries. Businesses and homes draped their windows with funeral bunting. A coffin draped in black cloth was suspended over the street in front of the old State House, emblazoned with the words the Funeral of Liberty.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, rendition, if you're not familiar with that use of that term, is sort of the legal term for an interstate extradition in the United States. Richard Dana and the Reverend Leonard Grimes asked for permission to accompany Byrnes to the harbor, but that permission was refused. So he walked alone, flanked by soldiers, through cordons established by law enforcement, wearing a new suit that had been given to him by some of the militia. When he got to the wharf, he was put aboard a federal ship which had a naval escort out of Boston Harbor. The cost of Burns transportation to the harbor and back to Virginia, which was paid for by the federal government, was about $40,000, which is very roughly equivalent to one and a half million dollars today.

[Matt Rogers]

This was one of the most infamous fugitive slave trials in the years leading up to the US Civil War. And it was also the topic of a lot of Sunday sermons that week in Boston and elsewhere in Massachusetts. In the words of Burns biographer Charles Emory Stevens, quote, the extradition of Anthony Burns as a fugitive slave was the most memorable case of the kind that has occurred since the adoption of the federal Constitution. It was memorable for the place and for the time of its occurrence, the place being the ancient and chief seat of liberty in America, and the time being just the moment when the cause of liberty had received a most wicked and crushing blow from the hand of the federal government. It was memorable also for the difficulty with which it was accomplished, for the intense popular excitement which it caused, for the unexampled expense which it entailed, for the grave questions of law which it involved, for the punishment which it brought down upon the head of the chief actor, and for the political revolution which it drew on.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

After arriving in Norfolk, Virginia, Burns was kept in jail for two days before boarding another ship bound for Richmond. There he was incarcerated at a slave trading complex run by Robert Lumpkin, which was known as Lumpkin's Jail. While most of the other people there were being held before being sold and they were kept in cells together, Burns was shackled in an attic room that was accessible only through a trapdoor. Alone. He had a bench rather than a bed and was only given a thin blanket and one meal a day.

[Matt Rogers]

This was an attic room in Virginia in the summer, so it was very hot, and since he was chained by the hands and feet, Burns had no way to try to make himself more comfortable. This permanently affected his health, and he said that it felt like revenge.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

At the beginning of his incarceration, his chains were periodically removed so that he could be taken downstairs and shown to visitors. Most of them wanted not just to gawk at him, but to tell them how they thought he had damaged the state of Virginia and that his life should have been sacrificed for the good of the slaveholding class. These visits eventually tapered off, at which point his only contact with other people was through a hole that he enlarged through the floor with a spoon in the area that was covered up by the trap door. When it was open, he would talk to the people who were in the cell beneath him. Through that hole, he had managed to.

[Matt Rogers]

Conceal a pen and some paper in his clothes while still in Boston, and someone in the cell below had managed to smuggle him some ink. He worked pieces of brick out of the wall, and he wrapped letters around them written to friends in Boston and elsewhere. He would wait until he saw a black person pass by on the street below before dropping them out of the window. And he knew that this was a risk because a black person finding that letter probably wouldn't be able to read and would need to find someone who could. One of these notes ended up being delivered to Suttle, who had his jailers confiscate his paper and pen.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, I think he determined that none of the letters that he tried to send this way actually wound up getting to their intended recipient. Abolitionists in Boston were still trying to get subtle to sell Burns to them, but at this point, he refused. He said that his friends in Virginia were opposed to it. They said it might encourage more people to try to escape, knowing that doing so might lead to their being purchased by somebody in the North. But eventually, some members of the militia got in touch with him about it, and since they were militia and not abolitionists, he seemed more willing to entertain their offer. At this point, though, he wanted $1,500, which they were unable to raise.

[Matt Rogers]

Finally, Suttle sold Burns at auction Telling the auctioneer to make sure that he did not go to anyone in the North. Burns was sold to David McDaniel of Rocky Mount, North Carolina, for $905. McDaniel left Richmond with Burns at night to try to avoid the possibility of an angry mob harassing them on their way out of town.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, he was really notorious in the south at this point. He was getting a comparable level of attention to what he had gotten in Boston, but, like, from the absolute opposite angle. People were ready to tell him that he had harmed the whole state of Virginia, that he deserved everything that he was getting, all kinds of stuff like that. Once he was sold to McDaniel, the people of Boston basically lost track of Anthony Burns. But eventually, one of McDaniel's neighbors realized who he was, and word made its way back to a minister named George Stockwell. Contacted the Reverend Leonard Grime, who worked with black abolitionists in Boston to raise thirteen hundred dollars to purchase Burns from McDaniel. They traveled to Baltimore to make this transaction, which was carried out with some difficulty on February 27th of 1855. And after that, Burns was free. A reception was held in his honor at Tremont Temple in Boston on March 7, 1855.

[Matt Rogers]

After returning to Boston, Burns told his life story to Charles Emory Stevens, who had also witnessed a lot of the events surrounding his case in Boston firsthand. Stevens wrote Anthony Burns a history based on this and other research, and he published that book in 1856. Burns sold copies of the book and also did speaking engagements to help pay for his education. He reportedly refused an offer of $500 to speak at PT Barnum's museum, saying that Barnum wanted to, quote, show him like a monkey.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

He didn't want to earn a living off of this book. And speaking, though, he sort of thought that it was making money off of something evil. What he wanted was to become an ordained minister. A Boston donor funded a scholarship for him to study at Oberlin College in Ohio. It's possible that he also spent some time at Fairmount Theological Seminary in Cincinnati.

[Matt Rogers]

In 1855, Burns wrote to a church that he had attended in Virginia, asking for a letter of dismission, ending his membership there so that he could join another church. This church published its response in the Fort Royal Gazette on November 8, 1855, saying, Anthony Burns absconded from the service of his master and refused to return voluntarily, thereby disobeying both the laws of God and man. Although he subsequently obtained his freedom by purchase, yet we have now to consider him only as a fugitive. From labor as he was before his arrest and restoration to his master.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Burns response to this was printed as an appendix to his biography. He told Stevens that he had some assistance in preparing it, but that the substance was all his own. It said in part, quote, I admit that I left my master, so called, and refused to return, but I deny that in this I disobeyed either the law of God or any real law of men. Look at my case. I was stolen and made a slave as soon as I was born. No man had any right to steal me. That man stealer who stole me trampled on my dearest rights. He committed an outrage on the law of God. Therefore his man stealing gave him no right in me and laid me under no obligation to be his slave. God made me a man, not a slave, and gave me the same right to myself that he gave the man who stole me to himself. The great wrongs he has done me in stealing me and making me a slave, in compelling me to work for him many years without wages, and in holding me as merchandise. These wrongs could never put me under obligation to stay with him or return voluntarily. When once escaped, he went on to.

[Matt Rogers]

Say, quote, you charge me that in escaping I disobeyed God's law? No, indeed, that law which God wrote on the table of my heart, inspiring the love of freedom and impelling me to seek it at every hazard, I obeyed. And by the good hand of my God upon me, I walked out of the house of bondage. You charge me with disobeying the laws of men. I utterly deny that. Those things which outrage all right are laws to be real laws. They must be founded in equity. You have thrust me out of your church fellowship. So be it. You can do no more. You cannot exclude me from heaven. You cannot hinder my daily fellowship with God.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

In 1860, Burns was offered a position as a preacher at a church in Indianapolis, Indiana. But he wasn't able to accept that position since Indiana's 1851 constitution banned black people from entering, passing through or settling in the state. Not long after, he was hired at Zion Baptist Church in St. Catherine's Canada west, which was later known as Ontario. He moved there and took up his position, but he died of tuberculosis a couple of years later, on July 27, 1862, at the age of 28. He was buried at St. Catherine Cemetery, and his grave there was restored in the year 2000.

[Matt Rogers]

In the words of an obituary in a Saint Catharines newspaper, quote, Mr. Burns memory will be cherished long by not a Few in this town. His gentle, unassuming and yet manly bearings secured him many friends. His removal is felt to be a great loss, and his place will not soon be filled.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

The trial and rendition of Anthony Burns had impacts on a number of other people who were connected to it and on Massachusetts more broadly. In particular, although Commissioner Edward G. Loring had given Burns a more thorough legal proceeding than he was legally entitled to under the Fugitive Slave act of 1850, people were outraged that he had found for Burns enslaver. There were also people who were angry because they thought Loring's role as a state probate judge should have prevented him from being involved in the first place. The Harvard Board of Overseers voted not to reappoint him for his position at Harvard Law. He was also removed from his position as a probate judge. However, President James Buchanan later appointed him to the Federal Court of claims.

[Matt Rogers]

In 1855, in response to the Burns case and the events surrounding it, Massachusetts also passed one of the strictest personal liberty laws in the United States. The legislature had to override the veto of Governor Henry Gardner to pass this law, which was written specifically to limit the power of the Fugitive slave Act of 1850. It explicitly applied the terms of the earlier 1843 Personal liberty law to the Fugitive Slave Act. It declared that, quote, every person imprisoned or restrained of his liberty is entitled as of right and of course, to the writ of habeas corpus. Except in the cases mentioned in the second section of the chapter, a wide.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Array of legal bodies and legal officials were authorized to issue these writs. A court would then have to order a trial by jury at which the confessions, admissions and declarations of the alleged fugitive against themselves would not be admissible as evidence. So you could not, for example, go ask somebody a bunch of leading questions to then introduced the answers to those questions as evidence. The burden of proof was explicitly on the claimant, meaning the enslaver, not on the alleged fugitive. This law is a big reason why Anthony Burns was the last person to face a rendition hearing after escaping from enslavement and fleeing to Massachusetts.

[Matt Rogers]

Where are we at on listener mail, Tracy?

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Well, we are at Iguanodon, Ben. Iguanodon dinner. Hooray. This is from Grace. It's a short email, but Grace said hello. When I started the episode on the New Year's Eve Iguanodon Dinner, I could have sworn that y' all had already done an episode on it until I remembered I was thinking of tasting history. Max Miller did an episode about the dinner and making Salmis de Peardry. I'm saying that real bad. It's French. It's sort of French, which was on the menu that night. Love hearing about something from two different angles. Thanks for joining me on so many car rides and household chores with us. Smile, Grace. Thank you so much, Grace, for this email. I did not watch or really look at this episode of Tasting History when I was working on this, but they did make this dish. I'm always fascinated with the historical recipes. There is a recipe on their website that is from Beaton's Book of Household Management by Isabella Beaton from 1861 that has this whole recipe. And so it is partridge and then salmi is a French cooking method.

[Matt Rogers]

Yeah. It's like roasting.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. And then in a sauce.

[Matt Rogers]

Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I did not look too deeply into what any of the individual dishes that were served in the iguanodon that I had never heard of were actually like. And now I kind of watch to maybe try to recreate as many of them as possible in the cold winter where there's currently so much snow that I definitely do not want to go out to buy ingredients. But anyway, thank you so much for that email, Grace, and for reminding me about tasting history, because I have not really partaken in any tasting history stuff in a while and it's really cool. Cool. If you would like to send us a Note, we'[e-mail] if you want to look at the source list for our episodes, that is on our [e-mail] Also, you can subscribe to our show on the iHeartRadio app and anywhere else you like to get your podcasts. Stuff youf Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Bowen Yang]

I'm Bowen Yang.

[Matt Rogers]

And I'm Matt Rogers.

[Bowen Yang]

During this season of the Two Five Rings podcast, in the lead up to the Milan Cortina 2026 Winter Olympic Games, we've been joined by some of our friends.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Hi, Brian. Hi, Matt.

[Matt Rogers]

Hey, Elmo.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Hey, Matt.

[Bowen Yang]

Hey, Bowen.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Hi, Cookie.

[Bowen Yang]

Hi.

[Matt Rogers]

Now the Winter Olympic Games are underway and we are in Italy to give you experiences from our hearts to your ears. Listen to Two Guys Five Rings on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Over the last couple years, didn't we learn that the folding chair was invented by black people because of what happened in Alabama? This black History Month. The podcast Selective Ignorance with me, Mandy B. Unpacks black history and culture with comedy, clarity and conversations that shake the status quo. The Crown act in New York was signed in July of 2019, and that is a bill that was passed to prohibit discrimination based on hairstyles associated with race. To hear this and more, listen to Selective Ignorance with Mandy B. From the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Bowen Yang]

You can scroll the headlines all day and still feel empty. I'm Ben Higgins and if youf Can Hear Me is where culture meets the soul. Honest conversations about identity, loss, purpose, peace, faith, and everything in between. Celebrities, thinkers, everyday people. Some have answers. Most are still figuring it out. And if you've ever felt like there has to be more to the story, this show is for you. Listen to if you can hear me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Matt Rogers]

Hey, I'm Jay Shetty, host of the On Purpose podcast. On a recent episode, I sat down with Nick Jonas, singer, songwriter, actor, and global superstar. I went blank.

[Bowen Yang]

I hit a bad note.

[Matt Rogers]

Then I couldn't kind of recover and.

[Bowen Yang]

I. I built up this idea that music and being a musician was my whole identity.

[Matt Rogers]

I. I had to sort of relearn who I was. If you took this thing away, who am I?

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or.

[Matt Rogers]

Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.