Battle Royale: Optimists vs Pessimists

Summary

Podcast Summary: Stuff You Should Know

Episode: Battle Royale: Optimists vs Pessimists
Date: December 16, 2025
Hosts: Josh Clark & Chuck Bryant
Producer: iHeartPodcasts

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Episode Overview

This episode, “Battle Royale: Optimists vs Pessimists,” dives deep into the concepts of optimism and pessimism from philosophical roots to modern psychology, exploring their definitions, measurements, and real-life implications. Josh and Chuck bring humor, personal anecdotes, and scientific study findings to discuss why we are the way we are, whether you lean sunny-side up or tend toward gloom—and why both have evolutionary and practical value.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Origins and Definitions

• Philosophical Roots (06:00 – 10:10)

  • Optimism as a concept comes from the French "optimisme," coined in the 1700s by Leibniz, positing that God optimized the universe for maximum good.
  • Pessimism was invented as a counterargument, a philosophical strawman. “Philosophers love to make up stuff to tear one another's arguments apart.” – Josh (08:01)
  • Voltaire mocked Leibniz’s optimistic outlook in Candide.
  • Schopenhauer’s philosophical pessimism: Life is suffering; evil is more prevalent and has a disproportionate impact.

• From Philosophy to Psychology

  • Shift from broad philosophical concepts about the universe to individual outlooks and personal happiness.
  • William James and Abraham Maslow pushed psychology toward focusing on happiness (positive psychology).
  • Martin Seligman later popularized “learned optimism," promoting it as an achievable skill.

Measurement and Psychological Models

• Trait vs. State (12:58 – 14:03)

  • Trait: Your general disposition (long-term, stable).
  • State: Your mood in the moment (short-term, changeable).
  • Studies with twins support the idea that optimism has both genetic and environmental components.

• Dispositional vs. Attributional Optimism

  • Dispositional: How you expect future events.
  • Attributional: How you assign cause to past events.

• Life Orientation Test (LOT-R) (15:17 – 18:48)

  • Measures dispositional optimism/pessimism reliably.
  • “If you take this test at 50, and you take it again… at 55, you're probably going to get roughly the same score.” – Josh (16:19)
  • Scores correlate with age: Optimism generally rises into middle age and declines after.

• Attributional Style Questionnaire (19:56 – 21:39)

  • Developed by Seligman; assesses how people explain events, with pessimists and optimists approaching causes of good/bad outcomes differently.

Nature vs. Nurture (28:05 – 31:26)

• Genetics account for about 25% of the variance in optimism; upbringing and life experiences fill in the rest.
• Positive childhood experiences, secure family relationships, and socioeconomic status boost optimism.
• Religious attendance as a child correlates with optimism, especially in secular societies.

Brain Science and Current Findings (31:33 – 33:12)

• Neurological differences exist between optimists and pessimists—optimists’ brains light up similarly when imagining the future; pessimists’ patterns are more individual.
• “Optimists are the only ones that share the brain pattern. I find that super fascinating.” – Josh (32:27)

Optimism and Health Outcomes (33:14 – 36:11)

• Optimism is linked to better physical health, heart health, immune function, lower stress/inflammation, and longer life.
• Caveat: Socioeconomic status and financial security confound these results; sometimes, people are healthier because of wealth, not just optimism.

Optimism Bias (36:11 – 41:12)

• The human default skews heavily optimistic: about 80% of people.
• Weinstein’s (1980) landmark study—people rate themselves as less likely to have bad things happen and more likely for good things compared to peers.
• Optimism bias can lead to poor preparation and misjudgment (“You might not check if your spare tire's in good shape because you assume you'll never need it.” – Josh, 40:40), even at perilous scales like corporate or governmental planning.

Global and Cultural Perspectives (43:31 – 44:24)

• Most optimism research is Western-centric; cultural norms skew self-reporting of optimism and pessimism.

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Memorable Variations on Optimism & Pessimism (46:54 – 54:38)

• Positive Affect: Enjoying the present vs. optimism’s focus on the future.
• Depressive Realism: Moderately depressed individuals may have a more accurate perception of reality (original study: Langer & Abramson, 1970s).
• Defensive Pessimism: Expecting the worst to control anxiety and drive careful preparation. “If you ever put two words together to describe me, it's defensive pessimist.” – Josh (50:33)
• Fatalistic Pessimism: The belief that nothing can be changed; associated with negative mental health.
• Toxic Positivity: Overly optimistic to the point of being dismissive or delusional.
• Tragic Optimism: (Viktor Frankl) Acknowledging pain and suffering but striving to find meaning anyway.
• Cultural Pessimism: Belief the past was better; present day is decline (“declinism”).

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Interventions & Practical Takeaways (55:05 – 60:33)

• ABC Technique (Seligman, CBT):
  • Antecedent (Adversity), Belief/Behavior, Consequence.
  • Change how you interpret setbacks to alter your emotional response and future behavior.
  • “You've got to get in there between the difficult situation … and the B thing, between the A and B, and change the attribution.” – Chuck (56:00)
• Best Possible Self Writing:
  • Write about your ideal future; this improves well-being and raises optimism.
• Benefits of Pessimism:
  • “If everyone’s looking on the positive side of things, then the people who are doing negative stuff are much likelier to get away with it.” – Josh (59:59)
  • Defensive pessimism and realism can prevent disappointment and encourage better planning.

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Notable Quotes & Banter

• “The upshot of this is that that's not really the best description of optimism and pessimism.” – Josh (06:25)
• “This was one of those ones where I knew very little about what it actually is compared to what I thought I knew. And I love like that.” – Josh (05:44)
• “It can be bad that you'll be more successful than you would. I mean, again, just statistically speaking.” – Josh, on the darker sides of optimism bias (40:01)
• “I feel like just believing that artificial intelligence will be great with no downsides that are worth considering is an excellent example of what you're just talking about.” – Josh (41:59)
• “Or, you know, if you're a defensive pessimist, it's not about aiming low, it's about not expecting too high. And then if you have … realistic expectations and then you outperform those, like, that's gotta feel great to a pessimist, for sure.” – Chuck (60:09)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Topic | Timestamp | |----------------------------------------|-----------| | Philosophical origins | 06:00 | | Trait vs. state, nature vs. nurture | 12:58 | | Psychological tests (LOT-R, ASQ) | 15:17 | | Brain science and patterns | 31:33 | | Health outcomes and optimism | 33:14 | | Optimism bias and global perspectives | 36:11 | | Cultural caution and exceptions | 43:31 | | Variations: depressive realism, etc. | 46:54 | | Defensive pessimism and toxic positivity| 50:33 | | Practical interventions (ABC & BPS) | 55:05 | | Wrapping up, benefits of pessimism | 59:07 |

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Conclusion

Josh and Chuck bring humor and insight to a deep field of research, ultimately suggesting that while optimism offers measurable health and well-being benefits, its opposite—pessimism—can have a protective function, especially when wielded with intention. They advocate a balance: “If you have the ability to shift between pessimism and optimism as the situation calls for, that’s probably ideal.” (Josh, 60:00) Whether optimistic or pessimistic, both approaches have value, and with the right strategies, you can even learn to adjust your perspective.

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For Further Learning

• Try the Life Orientation Test (LOT-R) or Attributional Style Questionnaire to find your own baseline.
• Man’s Search for Meaning, Viktor Frankl.
• Research on optimism bias (Neil Weinstein, Tali Sharot).

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Episode language and tone: Playful, curious, occasionally self-deprecating, and always interested in practical application (true to SYSK style).

Transcript

[Sponsor/Announcer]

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[Chuck Bryant]

With an autoimmune condition isn't easy, and every journey is different. That's why Season five of Untold Stories, Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition from Ruby Studio and Argenics, shares powerful firsthand stories from people with conditions like MG and cidp. Hosted by Martine Hackett, these conversations dive into what resilience really looks like through setbacks, breakthroughs and finding strength in community. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

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[Chuck Bryant]

All right everybody in Canada, we have a pretty big announcement. We are finally going to do our first big big tour of Canada. Going to announce the dates and the theaters and cities here first and then we're going to give you all the ticket info. Okay, how does that sound?

[Josh Clark]

It sounds great. Chuck, where are we going to go first?

[Chuck Bryant]

On June 25, we're going to be in Montreal at the Olympia de Montreal. The next night on the 26th, we're going to be going to Ottawa at the Hard Rock Live Ottawa. And then on the 27th, finish up in Toronto at Massey Hall.

[Josh Clark]

And then we're going to walk to the next show. So it's going to take us a few weeks.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. On July 23rd, we're going to be in Vancouver at Queen Elizabeth Theater. Friday the 24th of July, we're going to be in Calgary at Jack Singer Concert hall at Art Commons. And we're going to wind it up in Winnipeg on the 25th at Burton Cummings Theater.

[Josh Clark]

That's awesome. So tickets go on sale today, everybody, December 16th, starting at 10:00am Eastern Time and going all the way to Friday, December 19th at 10:00am local time. We're going to have an artist presale. You can buy your tickets early. Just go to stuffyou should know.com and click on the tour button and then click on your city. And when you go to check out, use the promo code sysklive. And if you miss all that, don't worry. Tickets go on general sale on Friday, December 19th at 10:00am Eastern Time. And again, you can get all of the tickets and info you need at stuffyou should know.com and we will see you this summer, Canada.

[Chuck Bryant]

Welcome to Stuff youf Should Know, a production of iHeartradio.

[Josh Clark]

Hi and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. And we're just gonna do a great job here today on stuff you should Know.

[Chuck Bryant]

Hi everybody.

[Josh Clark]

Feeling good, Chuck?

[Chuck Bryant]

Feeling great, Lewis.

[Josh Clark]

That's right. Looking great, Lewis.

[Chuck Bryant]

You want to hear something funny?

[Josh Clark]

I do. Always.

[Chuck Bryant]

You hear that?

[Josh Clark]

Is that your new Windows?

[Chuck Bryant]

No, that is new Windows. What does that mean? That is. We were not able to stay in our home this week because, as you know, because I've told you this, because we're getting our electric panel redone. So I was not able to print out my stuff as usual. And where we were staying, you know, at a friend's, they allowed me to print, but all they had was cardstock. So that is the sound.

[Josh Clark]

Heavy duty research, man. That's like half a tree right there.

[Chuck Bryant]

I know. I feel pretty bad, but God, it feels so good in my hand.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, well. Is this your new thing?

[Chuck Bryant]

I could not justify that, but boy, it feels good. Maybe for the live shows. Cause you know, over the course of a tour which is happening next year, everybody.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, that's a good one. Yeah, we're going out on tour, everyone, soon. Starting January, then April, and then the summer for Canada.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. But, yeah, you know how that document gets a little tattered over time, so I might cardstock it.

[Josh Clark]

I like that. I call that Tour Kisses Tour.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, I thought that was something else. Like after the end of the tour, when we make out a little bit.

[Josh Clark]

You don't talk about that. All right? We don't have a name for that. No, Chuck, we're talking today not about tour kisses of any variety, but about optimism and pessimism.

[Chuck Bryant]

I like this one.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I do, too. This was. Olivia helped us with this. And this is one of those ones where when, you know, it was. I knew very little about what it actually is compared to what I thought I knew. And I love. Like that. Yeah, same optimism and pessimism as pretty much everyone knows. Is this the idea that you have, like, a sunny disposition or maybe you're gloomy and Eeyore Ish. Yeah, I was going back and reading some Eeyore quotes. Man, that guy was great. If you want to entertain yourself, just read a. A Milne Eeyore quotes and you'll be delighted. But the upshot of this is that that's not really the best description of optimism and pessimism.

[Chuck Bryant]

That may be your earliest upshot, by the way.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, is it? I need to break that record next time, then. Yeah, I'll say, hey, and welcome to the Upshot.

[Chuck Bryant]

If you ever go solo, that'd be a great Josh Clark Only podcast the Upshot with Josh Clark.

[Josh Clark]

And if I need to break that, I can say upshot and upshot to the upshot. At any rate, the long and short of what I'm talking about is that our views of optimism and pessimism aren't exactly right, at least as far as psychology is concerned. And in that sense, it kind of confounds things, because I found some of this stuff a little hard to wrap my brain around because my brain's been so primed by pop psychology to think of these things as this when actually we're talking about them like that.

[Chuck Bryant]

Is that what it was? Because I had the same thing where, like, I spent more time on this than things that were seemingly more difficult to understand.

[Josh Clark]

That's the only explanation I can think of. It was preconceived notions.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I think you're right. Shall we go back and just talk about the word? Because I Thought that was sort of interesting in itself.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Was that the original word comes from French optimisme. That was coined in the early 1700s by a philosopher named Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz, or I guess Leibniz. And that's interesting enough. That's fine. The idea was that God optimized the universe for good and minimized evil. But what I thought was super interesting, the word pessimism was literally made up just to counter that, like as a strawman term for people to write and say, well, nah, I don't really think so. So they made up the word pessimism.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I thought that was interesting too. Although if you look at it from, you know, this whole thing finds its roots in philosophy. It's not surprising because philosophers love to make up stuff to tear one another's arguments apart. Right, yeah, good point. I read that Voltaire wrote Candide to mock Leibniz and his idea of the optimized universe because he thought it was so preposterous. Interesting, but you hit on something here. Like the entire concept of optimism and pessimism is rooted in philosophy, not psychology.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And there's pessimism kind of went on to have its own career. Aside from optimism. Schopenhauer came up with philosophical pessimism, which is the basis of all life is suffering. Everybody's heard that one and. Or experienced it. And then there are a couple other versions of philosophical pessimism that I thought were pretty interesting. The one that grabbed me the most is this idea that there's more evil in the world than good. So evil exists in greater quantities, but it's also of greater quality, too. So a small amount of evil can spoil a very large amount of good.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, I agree with that.

[Josh Clark]

I think I do, too. I thought of a good example is, let's say you have an executive who works at a charity and they get caught stealing money from that charity. Well, when word gets out, a lot of people probably are going to stop giving to that charity, and then the good that charity was doing for other people is going to dry up all because of the one act of that one person.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Or let's say you throw a birthday party for your kid and the whole. The whole day goes great, and at the end, some little jerk kid spoils it all by doing just this one thing, like smashes your kid's face in the cake or something.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, man, talk about an upshot.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right? But I think the long and short of this sort of the early philosophical stuff was it was way more sort of broad as, like the Whole morality of the universe. And Right. Since then, we've really narrowed it down more to like, your just very personal outlook on stuff.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And it's gotten even more kind of refined than that. The idea that we should use or seek optimism, we should optimize our optimistic outlook.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

Is pretty old. William James, who essentially founded modern psychology as a field, the late 19th, early 20th century, he was basically talking about that very issue too. It got picked up about 50 years later by Abraham Maslow, who came up with the hierarchy of needs. He also said, hey, yeah, we're really into this abnormal psychology because it's really interesting, but we should focus on optimizing people's happiness. We'll call it positive psychology. And I remember that. Do you remember when we started writing at How Stuff Works and every third article we wrote was about happiness? There's like a whole happiness craze that came out of Maslow's whole positive psychology thing being picked up and dusted off in the late 90s.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And I remember even in the 80s and 90s, and I don't know if this came from. And we're going to talk a lot about this guy, Martin Seligman. He was in the 90s. He was the president of the American Psychological Association. He talked a lot about positive psychology. But I remember a lot about just pma, your positive mental attitude, and improving your pma. And that was just sort of the key to everything, man. If you can just. If you can just get your head right and that pma. Right. Like everything's going to fall into place for you.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And I mean, I. I remember thinking Martin Seligman, I thought he came up with positive psychology. I didn't realize it was an already existing thing, but that was so pushed and pedaled, what you just described around 2008, 2009, that I thought this guy was a total fruit loop. But then looking into this stuff, his research on optimism and pessimism, I'm like, oh, this actually. This dude's pretty pretty with it. And I guess maybe being grown up, a little less cynical, certainly less cigarette smokey.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. In that kind of hindsight, I'm like, I think there's actually nothing wrong with trying to figure out how to. How people can be as happy as possible. There's a problem with foisting it on people and saying, you have to be happy. There's something wrong with you not happy. That's not what these people are talking about. They're just trying to figure out things that people can do to make Themselves happier if they feel like they need to make themselves happier.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. And as we'll see, you know, we'll get to, like, studies and stuff, but there's. There's definitely plenty of benefits to trying to be positive and have an optimistic outlook, as far as. I mean, we'll get to all the different things, including, like, real health outcomes.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

But there are also some positives to pessimism, as we'll learn, which was not surprising. But once I read it, it kind of. You know, a lot of that makes a lot of sense to me.

[Josh Clark]

Bravo, baby.

[Chuck Bryant]

One big thing, if you look at the, like, the. How psychology really views it today, and this is sort of true across a lot of psychology is sort of a nature nurture thing, or in this case, they refer to it as state versus trait state. Meaning, like, are you feeling that way right now, or is it generally your trait as a person of, like, oh, nothing good ever happens to me. And it's not just like, I'm having a bad day or something.

[Josh Clark]

Right. You can kind of think of states as moods and traits as your personality.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, exactly.

[Josh Clark]

One's way more stable than the other. And psychology tends to focus more on the trait side because they want to figure out what it is that makes people actually adopt or grow up or be bestowed genetically. Who knows? With an outlook on life that's way more positive than somebody else who may even have been, like, in the womb with them, but raised in a different house. You know, like, twin studies have shown there's actually huge variations in pessimism and optimism among twins who were separated at birth.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Those studies are always really telling to me, because that's probably not the hugest cohort, but I think it just speaks a lot to a lot of different things.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And there's a lot of really unethical stuff. Studies that were carried out with twins.

[Chuck Bryant]

Too, like, I imagine, splitting them up. Right.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I think there was a researcher at some point in the 70s maybe, who specifically was splitting up twins to study them.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right. I'm gonna put on my optimist cap and just think that everything worked out great for them because they were eventually reunited.

[Josh Clark]

That's wonderful.

[Chuck Bryant]

So when you talk about the psychology side of things, there's a couple of ways that they like to look at it, which are dispositional and attributional. Dispositional is how we predict future events. And attributional, obviously, is like, basically saying, like, this happened because of this, assigning either credit or blame for the reason that something good or Bad happened to you.

[Josh Clark]

Right. And those two are trait based, optimistic or pessimistic views. It's not. We're no longer talking about state and trait. These are all traits from what we're talking about. Like this is how you view life. Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

One of the first tests of this that has proven to be really viable and valid. It's called the Life orientation test. The lot. That was in 1985, and I think in the mid-90s they revised it. So it's the lot dash R. Lot dash revised?

[Chuck Bryant]

Is that what it stands for? I kind of figured, but I didn't bother looking.

[Josh Clark]

Sure. Anytime you see the R with something like that, it almost certainly is revised.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

It could also be revved up, I guess.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Or really the right test.

[Josh Clark]

Right. The other letters are just kind of implied. Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

The LOT was conceived by two dudes named Michael Shire and Charles Carver. Uh, and what they were trying to do and did a pretty good job of it, I think, was measure. You know, I talked about dispositional, which is how we predict future events. They're trying to measure dispositional optimism and pessimism with this test.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So what they found is that, like I said, the, the test is actually really reliable. That was the word I was looking for before.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Because if you take this test, you know, at 50, and you take it again on a totally different day, in a totally different state, in a totally different state of mind.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

At 55, you're probably going to get roughly the same score. Right. So it is a very reliable test. Interestingly, what they found is that over the course of life, optimism tends to rise and pessimism tends to fall from young adulthood to middle age. And then it starts to decline, which I can tell you firsthand, that is totally true.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, I don't want to self reflect too much on this one.

[Josh Clark]

Well, something that I'm really hanging on to is I've been told that, like, your 40s are far and away your worst decade.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

I've heard that almost across the board, you've got way more responsibility. Like you're not as young anymore, your body's starting to change. Like it's just a bad decade. 50s, it starts to pick up. But I remember we talked about this before. In your 60s, your happiness starts to go back up to levels that it was when you were younger. So I'm really holding out for my 60s, man, I'll tell you that.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, I'm closer than you. That for once it's a benefit. I know I'm jelly So the LOT R, which I guess it could stand for reliable.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

So the lot R comes along. The revised test, it is 10 questions. Six of them are scored, four of them are fillers, and the scored ones are things like, uh, I think Livia found these exact questions. In uncertain times, I usually expect the best. Um, if something can go wrong, for me, it will. And you're responding to how much you agree with something, and they score it in a pretty straightforward way. Where from 0 to 24, where 0 is very low optimism and high pessimism. And 24, man, you are maxed out. Optimist.

[Josh Clark]

I know.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Uh, you got a permagrine, right?

[Sponsor/Announcer]

I guess.

[Josh Clark]

So I took that test. I actually found the test that, like, a clinician would give to, like, a patient. It had, like, all the. All the explanations and all that stuff on it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. You're going to reveal your score.

[Josh Clark]

So out of 24, I scored 11. And I was like, that doesn't sound very good. And I looked at the explanation and scoring, and it says, below 13 is lower than typical optimism and may warrant clinical attention. So I got really upset about this because that's like, basically the test scoring academic version of going, ouch.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, ooh, I want to take that test. So send that to me, will you?

[Josh Clark]

You should. I'll send it to you.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay.

[Josh Clark]

But I went on, I guess, a bit of a tailspin. So I tried to make myself feel better. I went and listened to some Kenny G to brighten my mood.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

That'll do it.

[Josh Clark]

And I was just sitting there. I realized I was just sitting there waiting for him to screw up eventually. So I stopped listening to Kenny G. And I went to alone again, naturally. And then everything was all right again. Okay, that's good.

[Chuck Bryant]

Attributional optimism or pessimism is what we mentioned earlier, is the other side of that coin. And that's when you're either saying, like, this thing that was good in my life happened because of this good thing only, or this bad thing that happened because of this bad thing only. It's basically assigning blame to what happens in your life. And if you're, you know, some of this stuff is kind of no brainer. If you're optimistic, you are much more prone to attribute negative events to a specific thing. Like, hey, things usually work out for me, and this didn't just because of this. Whereas if you're a pessimist, it's like, no, this happened to me just because this kind of stuff always happens to me.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And in the same Vein, if you're a pessimist and something good happens to you, like that was just one in a million chance, it's never going to happen again.

[Chuck Bryant]

That makes me so sad.

[Josh Clark]

It is, but that's usually how it works on this test, the Attributional Style Questionnaire. I looked at that one too. That's a Martin Seligman joint. And it's 12 questions, 12 situations actually, where it says, so for example, one of them will say a friend compliments you on your appearance and then it asks you to write in what the cause was. Right? Like you got some new duds or something like that, right?

[Chuck Bryant]

Fresh haircut.

[Josh Clark]

I've got an even better example. There's one. It said you've been looking for a job unsuccessfully for a long time. Then you'd write in the cause. Say you said it was a bad economy. Or you even said I'm not good at interviewing. Then it says, okay. They ask you questions about the cause, like how much of that is due to the actions of yourself versus other causes. And so you might say like, well, I'm going through a bad spell right now, so you know, it's probably me in my gloomy nature right now. And they'll say, well, how likely is it that the issue is going to be present the next time, say you interview? You can say, well, I expect to be feeling a lot better next time, so maybe I'll be doing a little better. And then how much does it extend to other parts of your Life? So there's 12 of those and from that apparently you can glean quite clearly whether somebody leans pessimist or optimist based on their responses. Because again, it's, do things happen because you screwed up?

[Chuck Bryant]

Right?

[Josh Clark]

Or because you are capable of achieving good things? Is it always that way if you, if, if things go wrong for you, is that just par for the course? And then if something goes wrong for you, does your whole life just get disrupted? Like those things he figured out are actually really predictive and it makes a lot of sense.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, it's, it's interesting. It's almost like someone who is like a self actualized person as opposed to someone who feels like they're just sort of a victim in life.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, for sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

You know, for sure. So Martin Seligman, once again, he put forth this idea that though there was an antidote to this idea of learned helplessness, which is this, I imagine it's awful, this really draining thought that I just can't control anything that happens and all these negative things that Happen to me. Like, I can't do anything about that. He put forth the idea of learned optimism, but that has to go on the assumption that optimism and pessimism aren't just these fixed things in your life, and it's more of a strategy that you employ.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Which is really significant because I think it's easy for people who, say, have a generally gloomy outlook to forget that there's plenty of times where they are excited about the future, where they do expect something good to come for, like, down. Down the road for them.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

It's just easy to get caught up in that. So to look at them is like, no, this isn't like just your genes, like, making you move and walk like Master Blaster from Mad Max. Right. This is just you not even being aware that you're adopting these things as strategies to kind of negotiate life, because this is the strategy you learned based on all these other different events in your life that led up to this. Which means, Chuck. And this is the most hopeful thing of all. You can learn and unlearn strategies that you're not aware you're using by recognizing them as strategies.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And by the way, I just realized I cannot say that movie character name from the Mad Max without saying it like Tina Turner. I could only say Master Blaster.

[Josh Clark]

It sounds like Tim Curry doing Tina Turner.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

Wow.

[Josh Clark]

All right. Yeah, I like it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I like that, too.

[Josh Clark]

How's Tim Curry doing these days?

[Chuck Bryant]

You know, I actually saw something recently where he was interviewed and he has recovered from his stroke such that he can speak and, you know, I mean, I think he's doing as well as he can be for, you know, such a. I think it was a pretty massive stroke. But the interview I saw was like, he had a sense of humor and was engaged in. People really, really loved hearing from him again.

[Josh Clark]

That's wonderful. I'm glad I asked then.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I just saw that kind of recently, too. That's funny. You must be in my algorithm.

[Josh Clark]

I'm all up in that.

[Chuck Bryant]

Should we take a break or should we go through this last bit?

[Josh Clark]

We should go through last bit.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay. So here's something that's probably not surprising is that dispositional and attributional optimism are really correlated to one another. And really, no surprise, they're also. I was about to say comorbid, but that always sounds bad. But correlated to high self esteem, positive affect, feeling like you're in control of your life and your outcomes, and obviously negatively correlated with feeling depressed or stressed or alienated or having anxiety or hopelessness.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And as far as Big five personality traits goes, it's most closely related to emotional stability. Optimism is.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So essentially, if you put all that together, that's the kid from your high school that you hated because everybody loved him and he was in a great mood all the time and he loved you.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, that was kind of me.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, no. Oh, really?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, sort of.

[Josh Clark]

Mine was Scott Galvin or Tony Appy.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

Ah, man.

[Chuck Bryant]

Tony Appy. That guy.

[Josh Clark]

So I say we take a break.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay, we'll take a break. We're going to think about our lives and where this podcast is headed, and I'm feeling pretty good about it and optimistic. We'll be right back.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

Support for this show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI, it all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, buys one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.comsysk and earn an uncapped bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.comSYSK paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures [e-mail] disclosures.

So you're telling me that the AI that's meant to make everyone's job easier to manage just adds more to manage? On top of the thousands of apps the IT department already manages? Funny how that works. Any business can add AI. IBM helps you scale and manage AI to change how you do business. Let's create Smarter Business. IBM.

[Josh Clark]

And now Superhuman Shack.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

I keep telling them not to say that. I'm no superhuman. Believe it or not, I struggle with moderate obstructive sleep apnea or OSA in adults with obesity. Moderate to severe OSA is a condition where breathing is interrupted during sleep with loud snoring, choking, gasping for air, and even daytime fatigue. Let's just say IT can sound a lot like this. Sound familiar? Learn more@don'tsleeponosa.com this information is provided by.

[Josh Clark]

Lily, a medicine company.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

Stop. You. You know. Stop. Stop. You should know. Stop. You, you know, Stop. Stop. You should know stuff. You should know.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, so the thing that was on my mind, and I'm glad she included this bit Livia did, is like, you know, is this stuff nature or nurture? Like, are we kind of born this way or are we made this way? And no surprise, it's a bit of both. I think, generally speaking, they've come to a consensus that about 25. And anytime you hear percentages like this is sort of take it with a grain of Salt, but about 25% genetic. And the rest is a mix of, like, your childhood and the environment that you were raised in, obviously, and then still stuff that happened to you since then.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And a lot of it's pretty intuitional, right?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Intuitive.

[Josh Clark]

Sure. Yes. That's why I was like, that doesn't sound right. Yeah. Like, if you are a developmental psychologist, you would say, well, your early life experiences and being raised in a family that neglected you or abused you or criticized you constantly, you're going to develop negative patterns of thinking, and they're going to frame the way that you look at the world. Of course.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So, I mean, it makes sense at jibes. It's not one of these things. It's like this one subgroup in psychology is working on optimism and pessimism and having to try to do all these mental gymnastics to reverse shoehorn it into other stuff. It just fits with other concepts. So it's very clear that there are. There's something to optimism and pessimism. They do exist as a thing, psychologically speaking, and stuff like that just backs it up.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. There was a study this year, actually pretty robust, where they had 200,000 adults. And this one's good because it was spread out over 22 different countries. And we'll talk about a little bit of the bias of just studying sort of Western countries with optimism and stuff, but they compare their levels of optimism with how they remember their childhood and across all the geographies. And again, no surprise, people who had positive relationships in their family with their parents and siblings, they had better financial status, better health outcomes, and obviously were more optimistic. Interestingly, if you had frequent religious attendance when you were a kid, they associate that with optimism. But most strongly in more secular countries, which I thought was pretty fascinating.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I was trying to figure that out. And the best I could come up with is that they stood out more because they were fewer and farther between. I'm not sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

I don't know. Or maybe in more religious countries, you're just sort of more expected to be dragged to church. And it wasn't like, a conscious choice you made to go? I don't know.

[Josh Clark]

That's a better interpretation. Okay. And also, like I was saying, divorce, abuse, feeling like an outsider in your family, all associated with lower optimism.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And they did say, like. Okay, there is possibly something we should mention here. It's possible that these people who are recalling their childhood are the optimists are recalling their childhood in more favorable terms, and the pessimists are recalling them in less favorable terms. And there has to be, like, a word for when the thing you're studying acts as a confounding factor in the study of itself.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Could not find it to save the life of me. So if you're a researcher out there and you know what that is, tell me, because I've been dying. But that's essentially what they were saying. They still said, no, this study still stands, but they at least did acknowledge that it's possible it was the thing being studied. Optimism was influencing the study itself.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. There's gotta be a certain bias, like.

[Josh Clark]

A blank bias, you know, Blank bias. Good enough.

[Chuck Bryant]

If you're wondering about the brain itself, like just your physical brain, your noodle, as they say, they have found differences, obviously, in optimist and pessimist brains and how they're built, like your gray matter volume, but also how they activate. There was a study again from this year in 2025, where. And I thought, this is pretty interesting, where optimists share patterns like, the wonder machine lights up in kind of the same way when optimists imagine future events, whereas when pessimists imagine future events, they may all be imagining something negative, but it's all individual to that person. And how the MRI machine lights up.

[Josh Clark]

I think this is maybe the most interesting thing that has been turned up about this so far.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, it is. It's just like, groupthink versus, like, no, I have a personal negative outlook. That's only mine.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I mean, I saw somebody point out, like, maybe this is why some people click with other people. Like, they share a literal brain pattern in the way that they think about the future outlook on life. Whereas, you know, people who are, like, have lower optimism or higher pessimism are tend to think. Be thought of as, like, mopey, alienated off by themselves. So they can't even connect with one another because they have varying brain patterns. It's not like optimists all have one brain pattern and pessimists all have one brain pattern. Optimists are the only ones that share the brain pattern. I find that super fascinating.

[Chuck Bryant]

No, totally. And it also sort of lends itself to, like, if you're pessimistic, you may have a harder time finding a community because it's your own and not one that you share.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

As you know, we're talking about health outcomes. If you read especially, like, when you were saying, like, the earlier 2000s, when it was all this happiness stuff, it makes it seem like optimism is basically just the key to life across every single factor, from health to your finances, everything, your focus and your decision making and your motivations. And a lot of that is true to a certain degree. It's not a magic pill. But there's no doubt that optimism is linked to better literal health outcomes. Better heart health, lower inflammation, better immune responses, sleeping better overall mortality rates. One suggestion is like, yeah, because you're not as stressed out and stress is the cause of a lot of that stuff. So that just sort of makes sense.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, you have less inflammation, which is a big one. I mean, that could explain it right there as far as health outcomes. But also they're like. Well, hold on. I mean, like optimists. One of the things that defines optimists is that they are undeterred in seeking their goals because they generally believe they're going to be successful.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

Whether all odds are against it or not doesn't matter. They're. They're just gonna go and do their thing because they think it's gonna be fine. So that would include things like quitting smoking, exercising, eating right. Having goals, and then just working toward them is almost always aligned with better health and, like, having better health habits, too. So that would definitely explain one reason why they are probably healthier.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. There are some big caveats that Livia was keen to point out. And a lot of these studies, that sort of tie between being optimistic and having good health, it gets ticked down quite a bit when they look into the details of someone's, I don't know, bank account, and they're like, oh, well, yeah, this person that's got loads of money. Yeah, they're more optimistic. And so, yeah, they're healthier because a lot of that just financial stress and all that stuff goes out the door. And, you know, when you're stressed out about money, like, that may lead to, like, drinking More or starting smoking. And so you really have to sort of caveat that to death, you know?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And similarly, these studies are usually just taking a snapshot of what that person's like right then. Right. So you score very high on the, an optimistic. The life orientation test. Right. And you also say, like, I don't smoke. I eat 5 servings of vegetables every day. It's not clear from that study they're correlated. But is it that people who eat better and don't smoke tend to have a more positive outlook? Or do you not smoke and eat better because you have a positive outlook? There's a whole chicken and the egg thing. I just coined that phrase, but I think it's going to stick around.

[Chuck Bryant]

Then there's something called optimism bias, which I thought was pretty interesting. As a human race, we have an optimism bias. They've studied it to death. And they found that just for the general population, the default is about 80% of people are generally optimistic, 10% are generally pessimistic, and about 10% can go either way or maybe are neutral. And there was a psychologist named Neil Weinstein. I think this was in the very early 1980s. Yeah, 1980 was his initial study where he was the first guy to say, yeah, I mean, we are pretty much biased toward being optimist. And, you know, one reason may be because it's so shoved down your throat that that's the key to everything good in life, you know.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, maybe. What? Weinstein. I'm going with Weinstein, but I get Weinstein too.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

I think one thing that his study, it was a landmark study from what I could tell. In 1980, he tested, I think, 200 students and said, okay, of these positive things and of these negative things, what is the likelihood it'll happen to you? And what is the likelihood it'll happen to your classmates? And just across the board, students said that positive things were much more likely to happen to them than to their classmates. Negative things were much more likely to happen to their classmates than to them. And we're talking things like liking your post graduation job or your house doubling in value in five years, or this one, I love this one. Your achievements being written up in the newspaper. Like all those things were much likelier to happen to the test taker than they were to their fellow students. And that kind of gets to the basis of this optimism bias that everyone thinks that they're above average in a lot of different ways, which is of course impossible because there have to be people who. That isn't true for or else there wouldn't be an average. We'd all be above average. That's not possible. And so here's where we get to stop talking about optimists as if they're the greatest thing that ever happened. Because one of the big problems with optimism is this bias and making terrible predictions about the outcomes of events.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Well, there was another study that kind of tied into that. It was from Tali Sharat, who's a cognitive neuroscientist at the University College of London, and kind of took that experiment and ran with it and said, all right, I'm going to ask you about the likelihood of something good or bad happening in your life. Get that answer. And then they say, well, here's actually the average likelihood of that kind of thing happening. And now let me ask you again. And they found that people change their answers more in response in the positive way than in the negative way, which I thought was sort of counterintuitive.

[Josh Clark]

It is, because you'd think if you said, like, what's your chances of winning the lottery tomorrow? And somebody said 80%, and then the people said, actually, it's 90%, and they'd go, great, let's say 100% for me.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

So that's what people would do. But if the researchers said, actually it's more like 20%, they'd be like, no, 80% for me. And that's what I was talking about. People tend to think that good things are likely to happen for them, even in knowing that, statistically speaking, overall, it's very unlikely to happen to just anybody. But they're not just anybody. This is the optimism bias that's been turned up and reinforced year after year, every year. It's an annual thing.

[Chuck Bryant]

And speaking of reinforced, it seems that optimism reinforces optimism when they've studied this, that positive life events just tend to make you even more optimistic, which makes a lot of sense. But if you have something negative that happens, it doesn't generally all of a sudden make you more pessimistic. It's just like, well, that happened.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Some other examples are when you expect things to be easy for you. A lot of people do that. I understand that one, too. It can be bad that you'll be more successful than you would. I mean, again, just statistically speaking. And then also that we spend a lot more time thinking about good things that are coming down the pike than bad ones, which I also can associate with. I mean, it just seems unusual for the average person to sit around and be like, well, I'm probably going to get a flat tire in the next year and a half, statistically speaking. I should probably think about that for a little while.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[Josh Clark]

But there is some sort of, I guess, prophylactic influence of that, which is you might go make sure that your spare tire is doing okay. And that kind of belies this. I'm not sure if I'm using that word correctly, but this, that, that goes to show that the optimus bias can actually be harmful in some ways because it will prevent you from doing something like going to check your spare tire because of course you're not going to get a spare tire because that wouldn't happen to you.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, Emily and I talk a lot about it. Like the Pollyanna thing, that doesn't seem to serve people well because then you're all of a sudden ignoring, or maybe not ignoring, but at least not putting as much weight into the things you do and the decisions you make day to day that might have a bad outcome. And all of a sudden you're caught unaware when that bad outcome happens, which is it's bad enough when you're just an individual, but if you're a corporation or a frigging government and you're caught unaware because you thought something was going to go too well or you didn't put the budget or the time into something that you should have because you just thought it was a no brainer or something like that, that can be really destructive to a business or to a nation.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I feel like just believing that artificial intelligence will be great with no downsides that are worth considering is an excellent example of what you're just talking about.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure.

[Josh Clark]

So you might say, okay, well then if 80% of people are optimistic, that kind of suggests that this is like maybe humanity's default setting and that pessimism is like maybe a malfunction even. The, the thing about that is that it doesn't really make sense that it would be evolutionarily favorable for us to be optimistic because of this optimism bias that can get us into trouble. But you can look at it a certain way and say like, actually it does make a lot of sense because if we didn't have an optimistic bias, we might not go try new things. We might not make it out of the cave and learn to make fire ourselves. Or kind of put differently, if you have a problem that's life or death and you throw a bunch of people at it and all of them are kind of pre tuned to expect their attempt at being successful to work the ones who die trying don't get to reproduce. The ones that succeed do get to live to reproduce. And not only do they get to live to reproduce and pass on that optimism bias, it's reinforced because they were successful and they think all the more now I can successfully predict my future and I'll be successful in that future.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. And you know, I mentioned the caveat about the Western societies being the most studied. A lot of these are definitely, you know, slanted toward, you know, the American way of life or the Western way of life and thought they're really not super sure about sort of worldwide. There is some evidence that like in Japan that like, they might not anticipate positive outcomes as much for their own selves, like we do here in the United States, but they also make the point like, well, we're also, you know, all of these things are people self reporting. So in places like the United States or Australia, they may just be more likely to say out loud that they're optimistic, whereas in another country they may feel that way, but just, you know, no whammies kind of style. Or maybe they just are not as outwardly optimistic, but they really feel it. They just don't want to say it.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it's not cool to be optimistic in those countries.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

You want to take a break and then come back and talk about some variations on this theme?

[Chuck Bryant]

Let's do it.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI, it all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you backtested against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member finra SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures [e-mail] disclosures.

So let me get this straight. Your company has data here, there, and everywhere, but your AI can't use the data because it's here, there, and everywhere? Seems like something's missing. Every business has unique data. IBM helps your AI access your data wherever it lives. To change how you do business, let's create Smile to Business, IBM.

[Josh Clark]

And now Superhuman Shack.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

I keep telling them not to say that. I'm no superhuman. Believe it or not, I struggle with moderate obstructive sleep apnea, or osa, in adults with obesity. Moderate to severe OSA is a condition where breathing is interrupted during sleep with loud snoring, choking, gasping for air, and even daytime fatigue. Let's just say it can sound a lot like this. Sound familiar? Learn more@don'tsleeponosa.com this information is provided by.

[Josh Clark]

Lily, a medicine company. Okay, Chuck, we said we're going to talk about some variations, and I think one thing we should point out is that optimism itself is almost a variation on a theme. When people say, like, somebody's just happy all the time, they're just going through life, they have, like, the best attitude. That's actually not optimism. Optimism is either, like we said, you are expecting good things to happen down the pike, or you assume that you can overcome obstacles. You don't blame other people for your issues. Like, that's optimism with. The other thing that I just mentioned is positive affect, which is more enjoying the present. And optimism is thinking about the future, essentially.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, that's a good thing to point out for sure. Some of these variations that you mentioned we were going to talk about, I thought all these were pretty interesting. One is called depressive realism, and I think they all had their place. Depressive realism is this idea that if you're maybe a little depressed or moderately depressed, then you're actually a realist and you have a way more accurate view of the real world around you. In other words, you're not that Pollyanna. You're a realist. And this came from a Study in the 1970s by psychologists Lauren Eloy and Lynn Yvonne Abramson, where it's kind of a funky study, but they had participants push a button and then judged how effective that might be for causing a light to go on. Like, I'm going to press this button, but I don't think it's going to do anything right. Or, man, this room's going to light up when I press this button.

[Josh Clark]

Right, Exactly. And they said that people with depression tended to more accurately predict whether that button was going to turn the light on or not. Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And so they extrapolated that to say, like, well, you know, that means that people with depression or depressive symptoms are. They have just a greater handle on the reality of reality, basically. They're less likely to make wild predictions about their success, and so they understand reality better. And this was a landmark study that people just immediately put into the pop psychology grind because it's just so contrarian. It's delicious. And it's also one of those landmark studies that people have loved to kind of try to take shots at. And apparently it's not very well replicated. So I don't know its status right now, but it seems like it hasn't been debunked. And it's not unfounded as far as the field of psychology is concerned. But it doesn't seem like it's as golden as it once was to, like a dented landmark. Yeah, I think that's a great one. Like that ball of foil.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. There's another variation called defensive pessimism. I like this one. I mean, this isn't really me, but I think there's a lot of validity here in that if you have lower expectations and you're sort of planning for the worst, that's almost the same as being optimistic in a way, as far as it helping you in life. Cause it can really help manage your anxiety. It can make you feel like you have some sense of control and you're not. You know, like, during COVID they found that if you were a defensive pessimist, then that correlated with taking more precautions and being safer and, I. E. I guess, being healthier.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. If you ever put two words together to describe me, it's defensive pessimist. Yeah, for sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

I could see that.

[Josh Clark]

And I think there's no greater description than this. But defensive pessimists don't focus as much on pursuing happiness. They focus more on avoiding regret.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Which is. I mean, they can still have the same outcome, but it's. It's. What you're chasing is different. You're avoiding a negative outcome rather than pursuing a positive outcome. But the. The outcome's still the same.

[Chuck Bryant]

You succeeded because you're pursuing something.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. You're actually, you're. It's based on the idea that you can change your fate.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

Like, you can take actions to affect this outcome and make it as close to the outcome you want as possible. That's the same thing as optimism. It's just coming at it a different way.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I really like that idea because I Mean, it's not me, but I love it for you because it's not like, well, this is just gonna happen to me no matter what. It's like, boy, I have a bad feeling that this is gonna happen to me unless I take these steps.

[Josh Clark]

Right. The only downside of it is you won't let yourself think about the future being good because you'll jinx it, essentially.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Jinxing's a whole other. Whole other part of this thing.

[Josh Clark]

So what you just described, though, is what I think is the worst one. Fatalistic pessimism, which is everything's wrong and I can't do anything to change it. That is a sad, sad disposition that I like to think that is not set in stone. It's just because of life circumstances or it's a particular, particular low point in your life. I don't know. But I don't like to think that anyone out there is at their base of fatalistic pessimists. That's just sad.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Agreed. On the flip side of that coin, you have toxic positivity. I mean, we almost don't even need to say anything else, because I think everyone knows what that is. It can lead to bad things. Because that's sort of the Pollyanna thing I was talking about. You're ignoring anything negative to, like, basically you're delusional about that. And so you're not gonna attempt to improve things. Cause you're just like, no, it's all gonna work out. It's gonna be great.

[Josh Clark]

One of the ways that this pops up, I think, for people, and they don't really recognize that that's what they're doing, is when somebody shares their feelings or confides in you that they're afraid of something or anxious about something, and you just say, oh, it's all gonna work out. You're being toxically positive. Right. Then you're actually dismissing their fears. And you're probably doing it because you're uncomfortable. Right. Then you don't know what else to say. So you're just going on, well, I can't go wrong by being positive. You actually can. And that's toxic positivity.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And that's. I mean, true in all relationships, supporting a spouse or a friend, but also a lot with parenting, like, that's. That's not a great road to go down with a kid because you're teaching them the wrong things. I feel like you should be saying, like, well, hey, let's think about this. And maybe if you take these steps, you can help affect the Outcome rather than like, it's going to be fine, you're going to be great. Because you're not always going to be great.

[Josh Clark]

No. And that is a good thing to teach a kid for sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

There's also tragic optimism. It was coined by a guy named Viktor Frankl, who is a psychologist, or, sorry, psychiatrist, who actually did. He was interned in a Nazi concentration camp and lost essentially everyone he knew. And he wrote a book called Man's Search for Meaning from that. And it's like a seminal book in search for the meaning of Life. But he coined tragic optimism to basically say, this is the mindset where you are aware that in life you're going to suffer pain, guilt, loss, and that you can accept that that's true and still seek the most positive outcomes you can get.

[Chuck Bryant]

I like that one, too.

[Josh Clark]

Try to be happy even knowing that.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, Yeah, I like that.

[Josh Clark]

And then what's the last one, Chuck?

[Chuck Bryant]

Cultural pessimism. I'm not gonna editorialize here. That's basically just like the belief that the society was better at a different time. You know, decades ago, everything was great in this country, and everything is just going straight down the toilet today.

[Josh Clark]

It's called getting old.

[Chuck Bryant]

It's interesting in that you have a tendency, in this case, toward optimism bias about your own life, while also at the same time being pessimistic about society as a whole, which I think is super fascinating.

[Josh Clark]

It is, for sure. Especially when you talk about, like, my economic outlook is sunny, but not for the country.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

I've also seen it called declinism, too.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh.

[Josh Clark]

So let's say you're like, all right, nuts to all this pessimistic outlook that I've got. I want to be an optimist. I'm even willing to try to navigate optimistic bias. That's how bad I want to be optimistic. There's actually some stuff that they figured out that you can do to essentially shift your outlook some. I don't think anyone's saying, like, this is going to rewire your genetic code or anything like that, but there are some proven interventions you can take to help that along. I think probably it's based on your willingness to want to change, too.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I think intervention is a good word because it's like, hey, this is happening. Let me use this specific technique to stop it in its tracks. In the first case is the ABC technique. Our old buddy Martin Seligman came up with this one. It's used a lot in cbt, cognitive behavioral therapy, and the A is the antecedent or adversity. So you encounter something difficult. Livia used a great example of, like, you flunk a test, maybe then you have your belief and behavior, which in this case might be like, I just. I can't pass this test. I can't understand this stuff. I'm too dumb. And then the consequences, the C, which is because you have that fatalistic attitude, I'm just too dumb to pass this test. You don't study, and you fall further behind. And the key here, you know, according to Seligman, is you gotta get in there between the difficult situation, the thing that happens, and the B thing, between the A and B, and change the attribution. So, in other words, don't go to like, oh, I'm too dumb to do this. Go to like, no, that happened because I've been really stressed out. I didn't put the time in that I needed to to study. I really had my priorities out of whack. I didn't sleep well that week. And that's an immediate intervention where you're putting the attribution on something that was temporary, that happened, and not, this is how I am.

[Josh Clark]

Right. And that you can also change, too.

[Chuck Bryant]

Exactly.

[Josh Clark]

And then conversely, too, you can also say, like, I got a good grade. It wasn't just because, you know, I was lucky. You tell yourself, I got a good grade because I worked really hard. I got good sleep this week, and I paid attention. I found this interesting. You can do the same thing, too. The opposite, too, to achieve the same goal. I think you probably have to do both, to tell you the truth.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And this is also a good thing to remember when you're parenting, because when your kids are in school and they maybe get a bad grade, the first question I think you should say is, well, why do you think you got a bad grade? And see what they say and then just kind of go from there.

[Josh Clark]

Right. And then if they get a really good grade, you say, well, why didn't you get a hundred?

[Chuck Bryant]

Exactly.

[Josh Clark]

So there's another one that's even better than the ABC technique that's called the best possible cell for BPS intervention. And apparently everybody loves this one. There's a way of dealing with trauma that they used to have. It's called trauma writing, where you would write out essentially, like, the worst stuff that happened to you, and it would make you feel better having gotten it out on paper. It would also be pretty traumatic to do. Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

The whole basis of that trauma. Well, Laura King back in 2001 said, let's try something Different. Let's write out this sketch of yourself down the road in the future where you've achieved everything you wanted to achieve. It was through hard work. Write that version out and it's less traumatizing, but it also has the same effect. Like it improves your sense of well being and apparently increases your optimistic outlook on things.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, you know, it's the idea, that sort of hippie dippy thing where, you know, close your eyes and envision your future where you were strong and you're not doing the things that you're doing now that are holding you back. And it sounds kind of corny, but I think when you write it down, there's something to that. Just the same as trauma writing. It's different than just sort of mentally visualizing good things happening.

[Josh Clark]

Way different. There's something about writing that's definitely a step plus, you know.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And then. So just real quick. There are some benefits to pessimism too. It's not just, you know, being optimistic. Like, if you are pessimistic, there's some upsides to it. But also, even if you're optimistic, there's maybe a little pessimism you should adopt too. Like, if you want to enact social change, that usually doesn't happen through optimistic leaders. It happens through people who are skeptical and are not falling for the false advertising or false promises, essentially. Right. Like, you can't really be optimistic and get good social change, I think. Yeah. And then also, if you are a group that wants to spur social change, it's probably because you're unhappy with your current situation. And then lastly, this one's always stood out to me. If everyone's looking on the positive side of things, then the people who are doing negative stuff are much likelier to get away with it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, interesting.

[Josh Clark]

So I feel like if you have the ability to shift between pessimism and optimism as the situation calls for, that's probably ideal.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. Or, you know, if you're a defensive pessimist, it's not about aiming low, it's about not expecting too high. And then if you have. And it sounds bad to have, like, you should have low expectations, it's more like realistic expectations and then you outperform those. Like, that's gotta feel great to a pessimist, for sure.

[Josh Clark]

It's like planning for the worst but hoping for the best.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. That old T shirt. Isn't there a cat hanging from a tree or something?

[Josh Clark]

I think that's hanging there, baby. Okay. You got anything else?

[Chuck Bryant]

I got nothing else. That was A good one. I enjoyed it.

[Josh Clark]

Agreed. Well, Chuck enjoyed this one, which means he automatically unlocked listener mail.

[Chuck Bryant]

You know what? I don't have a great listener mail prepped for today. So let's just mention once again that we are going on tour again next year. We are super excited. We got shows lined up in January out west, ish in the Midwest in April and then we're finally going all across Canada. You guys, we're, we're reaching out with an olive, olive branch. Such weird times between our countries and saying, hey, don't boycott us. We want to come visit you. We're going to Montreal, we're going to places we've never been before. And tickets are on sale now and we'd love to see everybody.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Starting out. We're going to be in Denver and then Seattle and then San Francisco on January 27th, 28th and 29th.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And for those tickets and all tickets as they come on sale, you can just go to stuffyouchouldknow.com click on the tour button and it will take you where you need to go.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. Can't wait to see everybody, eh?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Hey, and if you want to get in touch with us in the meantime and send us an email, we would love that. You can send it off to Stuff. Podcastheartradio.com.

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Stuff youf Should Know is a production of iHeartradio. For more podcasts My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartradio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever.

[Chuck Bryant]

You listen to your favorite shows.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

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[Eva Longoria]

From Hungry for History with Eva Longoria and Maite Gomez rejoning. Like the song says, it's the most wonderful time of the year and also a wonderfully busy one. All that merriment can weigh down even Santa's sleigh. So keep it wonderful by keeping yourself wonderful with a crisp, cold Coca Cola. Ah, pause for fizzy joy. Look out for yourself and then look out for everyone else, and together we'll make this season as wonderful as it's meant to be. Enjoy a Coca Cola refresh your holidays.

[Chuck Bryant]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.