Child Prodigies: Better to Burn Out Than Fade Away

Summary

Podcast Summary: Stuff You Should Know - "Child Prodigies: Better to Burn Out Than Fade Away"

Release Date: July 31, 2025
Hosts: Josh Clark and Chuck Bryant
Production: iHeartRadio

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Introduction

In this episode, Josh Clark and Chuck Bryant delve deep into the intriguing world of child prodigies, exploring what defines a prodigy, the intricate balance between genius and prodigy, the biological underpinnings, and the pivotal role parents play in nurturing these exceptional talents. The hosts also discuss the potential pitfalls that prodigies may face as they transition into adulthood.

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Defining Prodigies vs. Geniuses

Mozart as a Prodigy: The discussion begins with Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, one of the most renowned child prodigies. They recount an anecdote from Mozart's teenage years (03:16), where at age 14, Mozart transcribed a revered choral piece, "Miserere," from memory after being forbidden to do so. This story underscores Mozart's exceptional memory and dedication:

Josh Clark [05:00]: "Mozart as a precocious 14-year-old couldn't fall asleep, so he woke up and transcribed the piece from memory."

Distinguishing Characteristics: The hosts clarify that while both geniuses and prodigies exhibit extraordinary abilities, they are not synonymous. A genius typically refers to individuals with exceptionally high IQs, often around 140, but who may not necessarily achieve notable accomplishments. In contrast, a prodigy surpasses adult levels of mastery in a specific domain by the age of 10, demonstrating not just potential but actual achievement:

Chuck Bryant [06:24]: "To be considered a prodigy, you have to have achieved something. It's just part and parcel with it."

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Characteristics and Traits of Prodigies

Focused Excellence: Prodigies usually excel in a single domain and often within a specific subsection of that field. For instance, a musical prodigy might specialize exclusively in classical music rather than branching into genres like jazz or ska. They typically exhibit expertise in one type of intelligence—be it linguistic, mathematical, or musical—rather than a broad spectrum.

Working Memory: A significant finding discussed is the exceptional working memory observed in prodigies. Research by Urbach and Satz (timestamp [24:37]) indicates that all studied child prodigies were in the 99th percentile for working memory, enabling them to excel in tasks requiring the recall of recent information, such as playing complex pieces of music or solving intricate mathematical problems.

Chuck Bryant [25:25]: "They all had that same great working memory, so that was sort of proved out a little further even."

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Biological and Genetic Factors

Genetic Predisposition: Ellen Winner, a psychologist and expert cited in the podcast, posits that genetics play a crucial role in the development of prodigies. She emphasizes that inherent brain differences enable certain children to exhibit prodigious talents from an early age.

Jerry [11:07]: "Ellen Winner... believes there's gotta be a genetic component. If a child suddenly at age 3... does it beautifully, this has to be because that child has a different brain."

Neurobiological Insights: Larry Vandervoort's hypothesis links prodigies to enhanced connections between the cerebellum and the cerebral cortex, facilitating superior learning and mastery through repetitive practice. This biological framework suggests that prodigies represent the pinnacle of human cognitive evolution.

Chuck Bryant [19:36]: "Larry Vandervoort believes it has to do with the connection between the cerebellum and the cerebral cortex."

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Environmental Influences and Parental Role

Nature and Nurture: The hosts explore the interplay between innate abilities and environmental factors. While genetic predisposition lays the foundation, early access to expert instruction and supportive environments are crucial in honing a child's talents.

Parental Involvement: Parents of prodigies often invest significant resources and time into their child's development, providing access to top-tier teachers and creating conducive environments for practice. However, this involvement can sometimes be overbearing, leading to negative outcomes such as burnout or strained parent-child relationships.

Chuck Bryant [37:48]: "They have to have access to those teachers... dedicating the time and hiring... experts in this field."

Case Studies:

• Wolfgang Van Halen: Raised in a musically enriched environment with his father, Eddie Van Halen, providing him with firsthand mentorship.
• Stevie Wonder and Srinivasa Ramanujan: Examples of prodigies who overcame resource limitations through self-teaching and innate brilliance.
• Todd Marinovich and Jennifer Caprioti: Illustrate the darker side of parental pressure, leading to issues like substance abuse and legal troubles.

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Psychological and Social Implications

Rage to Master: Ellen Winner introduces the concept of a "rage to master," where prodigies become obsessively focused on their domain, often at the expense of typical childhood activities. This intense drive can lead to social isolation and limited engagement in diverse experiences.

Jerry [19:11]: "These little kids... have a rage to master... They ignore everything else."

Autism Spectrum Connection: Research indicates a correlation between high working memory and attention to detail traits commonly associated with the autism spectrum. However, prodigies typically do not exhibit the full range of autistic traits, distinguishing them from savants.

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Life After Prodigy: Success and Struggles

Successful Transitions: Some child prodigies transition smoothly into adulthood, continuing their contributions in their respective fields. Examples include:

• John von Neumann: Excelled as a mathematician and physicist.
• Pablo Picasso: Continued to innovate in the art world beyond his prodigious early years.

Challenges and Burnout: Conversely, others face significant struggles once the child prodigy phase ends:

• Bobby Fischer: A chess prodigy whose later years were marred by legal troubles and anti-Semitic views.
• Elizabeth Benson: A child prodigy who became a successful adult but was publicly scrutinized for not maintaining her early fame.

Jerry [47:43]: "Elizabeth Benson... she was very happy with her very normal life... she scored perfectly on an IQ test."

Normalization of Childhood: The hosts advocate for allowing child prodigies to experience a typical childhood to prevent burnout and psychological issues. Emphasizing balance and mental health is crucial for their long-term well-being.

Jerry [50:46]: "Try to normalize a child's childhood as much as possible... unless they have a happy, healthy, contented life."

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Conclusion and Advice

Parental Guidance: Parents of prodigies are urged to tread carefully, balancing support with allowing their children to enjoy a well-rounded life. Consulting experts like Ellen Winner can provide valuable insights into fostering prodigious talents without overwhelming the child.

Chuck Bryant [49:56]: "If you have a child prodigy, tread carefully, consult experts. Maybe get in touch with Ellen Winner."

Final Thoughts: The episode underscores the complexity of nurturing child prodigies, highlighting the delicate interplay between innate ability, environmental support, and psychological health. While prodigies can achieve extraordinary feats, it's imperative to ensure their overall well-being to foster not just talent, but also happiness and fulfillment.

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Notable Quotes

• Josh Clark [05:00]: "Mozart as a precocious 14-year-old couldn't fall asleep, so he woke up and transcribed the piece from memory."
• Chuck Bryant [06:24]: "To be considered a prodigy, you have to have achieved something. It's just part and parcel with it."
• Jerry [11:07]: "Ellen Winner... believes there's gotta be a genetic component. If a child suddenly at age 3... does it beautifully, this has to be because that child has a different brain."
• Chuck Bryant [37:48]: "They have to have access to those teachers... dedicating the time and hiring... experts in this field."
• Jerry [50:46]: "Try to normalize a child's childhood as much as possible... unless they have a happy, healthy, contented life."

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Additional Resources

For listeners interested in exploring more about child prodigies, the hosts recommend delving into works by Ellen Winner and examining case studies of both successful and struggling prodigies to gain a comprehensive understanding of this multifaceted phenomenon.

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Note: Advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content sections have been omitted to focus solely on the informative aspects of the episode.

Transcript

[Josh Clark]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Chuck Bryant]

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[Josh Clark]

Welcome to Stuff youf Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

[Chuck Bryant]

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck. And Jerry's here too. And we're all feeling pretty precocious today here on Stuff youf Should Know.

[Jerry]

You know, judging from what just happened, I think if we released a little five minute mini episode every week of the five minutes before we. Where we're recording, but before we start the stuff that we're doing. I bet people would eat that up.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Jerry]

Rated R.

[Chuck Bryant]

So. Yeah, I'm sure some people would like that. The stuff you should know. Army definitely would.

[Jerry]

Yeah, for sure. Everyone else would be like, who cares what these guys are talking about? Off my.

[Chuck Bryant]

Exactly. I tune in for facts and that's it.

[Jerry]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

You know who else would probably eat it up? Chuck.

[Jerry]

Mm. I'm thinking about names in this. I don't know.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, I was just gonna start with Mozart.

[Jerry]

Oh, okay.

[Chuck Bryant]

Wolfgang Amadeus Marzot would love that kind of thing. He was really into hearing people talk candidly to one another. It was one of his things.

[Jerry]

Well, we're talking about child prodigies, and that's why you bring up Mozart, obviously. Thanks to Julia for help with this. And also, this is the first time I think that we're covering something that was a chapter in our book.

[Chuck Bryant]

No, we've done it before and I can't place it, but we definitely. There was one other one that we definitely did.

[Jerry]

Yeah, Mr. Potato Head.

[Chuck Bryant]

No, no, I'll try to think of it and I'll allocate about 5% of my brain to coming up with it while we do the episode. Okay.

[Jerry]

Okay. At any rate, this was one of the chapters from our book and we were both individually relieved when we texted each other that we each read reread the chapter and it was basically the same. And I was worried. I was like, man, this is gonna be so different, that one of them is gonna be sort of wrong. But long way of saying why we talked about Mozart is because if you read anything on the Internet about child prodigies, Mozart's a name that's gonna probably come up. One of the more famous prodigies. And there's Julia. Found a pretty fun story about Mozart as a teenager. Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I actually went and listened to this. Miserere. Yeah, Miserere. It's a choral piece for like, I think nine choral parts. And it was written by Gregorio Alighieri back in. I don't remember when he wrote it, but at least before 1770, because that was the year that a young Amadeus Mozart, who was 14 at the time, went to Vatican City to hear this. And the reason he and his father traveled to Vatican City is because this choral piece was so beloved by the people, the. I guess the Pope and all of his buddies.

[Jerry]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

That they forbade anybody from performing outside of Vatican City. And so, you know, a corollary to that was no one could transcribe it so that it was just to be heard in Vatican City. They thought it was that beautiful. And it's. If you heard it, you probably recognize it. Your mom probably listened to it while she was cleaning the house. Or you heard it on like America's top 40 in the. In the 70s or something.

[Jerry]

I've just. I've been distracted ever since you said the Pope and his buddies because now all I can think of is a sitcom called Pope and Company.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's not bad.

[Jerry]

Ampersand co dot obviously.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right. And the Pope has his like favorite recliner. That's almost like an extra character. Yeah.

[Jerry]

Don't sit in it if you're not.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right.

[Jerry]

Yeah. So anyway, very revered thing within Vatican City. And did you mention that no one could transcribe it?

[Chuck Bryant]

I certainly did.

[Jerry]

While you were spaced out. Yeah. I was really thinking about, like, what the opening credits of that sitcom would look like.

[Chuck Bryant]

Do you have the theme song in your head?

[Jerry]

It's clicking around up there. I'm no prodigy, so it'll take a minute. But you mentioned the transcription because Mozart as a precocious 14 year old couldn't fall asleep, apparently the night after the performance. So he woke up from his slumber and transcribed it even though he wasn't supposed to from memory as a 14 year old. Went back, heard it a couple of days later and was like, oh, I made a couple of mistakes from memory. He realized this and went back and fixed them. He had hid it in his hat because, you know, he wasn't allowed to have this transcribed, but just kind of a fun story of Mozart's precociousness.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And so he was at, he was age 14, so, so technically by this time he was a former prodigy.

[Jerry]

Oh, was that the cutoff?

[Chuck Bryant]

No, 10 is the cutoff. You have to have achieved this by 10 to be considered a prodigy. But the reason I said generally is because if you go by the strictest definition of prodigy, there are only a handful of the ones we talk about in this episode or we'll talk about actually qualify as prodigies. And, and technically Mozart, you could make a case if he was a prodigy. He was kind of a poor example of a prodigy because he went on to do great things as an adult, which is also something that's not usually characteristic of a prodigy.

[Jerry]

Yeah. And we also need to kind of spell out the difference between genius and prodigy because they're not necessarily the same thing. Well, they're not the same thing at all, but they can overlap at times, I guess is the better way to say it.

[Chuck Bryant]

But yeah, and I think Mozart would be an example of that.

[Jerry]

Yeah, for sure. But genius us is a high IQ or a high Q score of 140. But they may not ever achieve anything. You can be a genius and not achieve anything great. I mean, you probably will if you're a genius, but not necessarily. Prodigy doesn't necessarily have a high iq. They often do. But. Oh yeah, there it is right there. Generally by the age of 10. But what a prodigy is a kid that achieves like surpasses adult levels of mastery by the time they're 10. Like stuff that, you know, a lot of adults can't even achieve in expertise or, you know, like I can do this math or this chess or this. Play this, you know, instrument better than an adult who's been doing it for decades before the age of 10.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, they reach like the elite level where you can't really get any better as far as adults go by the age of 10. And then one of the other things about being a prodigy then is that by definition you have achieved something.

[Jerry]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Whereas like you said, but being a genius, you're, you are genius throughout your whole life, but you may or may not achieve something Right. To be considered a prodigy, you have to have achieved something. It's just part and parcel with it.

[Jerry]

Yeah. And prodigies were all the rage sort of in the beginning of the 20th century when tabloid journalism started. And when IQ tests started, they were all over the newspapers. People just were, you know, amazed and want, you know, in awe of these, these kids who could do these amazing things. They were all over the place.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. The term pint size was thrown around a lot, but they would, they would, like, reporters would interview them to ask them their thoughts on like current events and stuff like that. And they'd be quoted extensively in the paper. And people, I mean, people like you said were in awe, but they were also like, oh, it's a pretty good point. I hadn't thought about that. You know, so they were taken seriously too. And then there's a couple of other points that kind of make up prodigies that we've kind of figured out over the years. One of the things we should say about prodigies is that there's a surprising lack of people working on this. There are some people who study prodigies and they're, they're experts in, in the psychology and neurology of prodigies. But because there's so few people working on it, we don't have a full grasp on it. So it's largely speculation. But it seems like we're starting to get on track about what makes a prodigy. But even still, there's not like a cut and dried uniform definition of a prodigy. Some extra things, though that usually show up in particular is that they usually excel in just one field of knowledge, a domain, and then in that specific field of knowledge, they excel in one kind of subsection of it. So for example, if you were a music prodigy, you probably are a prodigy in say, classical music. You're not like classical, jazz, ska. Right. You're prodigy in just one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's another, another frequent thing too. You just get really, really, really good at one specific thing that's a characteristic of prodigies.

[Jerry]

Yeah. And they're, you know, you can be a prodigy in anything. A lot of times you'll see it in music and the maths. Chess is another good one that you see a lot of prodigies in. But you can really be a prodigy in anything. But it's like you said, a narrow range. But they usually exhibit one intelligence type. If you're talking about like psychological intelligence type. Linguistic, mathematical, logical, spatial, visual, musical, kinesthetic. Yeah. Interpersonal, intrapersonal, and Naturalistic. And, you know, it's rare that a prodigy excels in more than one of these.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And that's multiple intelligences theory. That Gardner. I can't remember Gardner's first name. Put out in the early 90s. And it basically overturned the idea of general intelligence, which up to that point, that's what everybody thought people had. And Gardner was like, no, actually, I think it's, like, carved into different areas, and people can kind of take from each of those. Then that would. That. That makes up your intelligence, not just a big general encyclopedia version of it. Yeah. But it seems to be pretty well. Pretty well accepted these days. But like you said, most of the time, they'll excel in just one of those. Again, you know, you're probably not a linguistic prodigy and an intrapersonal prodigy, where you are really good at examining yourself.

[Jerry]

Yeah. And how you get to be a prodigy is, you know, pretty complex. And we'll see later. It's probably a combination of a bunch of different things. It's definitely a combination of nature and nurture. And they've done some studying and we'll get to some studies later on about the, you know, genetics and the biology of it all and, like, brain function. But there is a psychologist who is also in our book, Ellen Winner, and she's one of the people, if you look up prodigies, she's one of the few experts you talked about that knows a lot about this stuff. But she believes in both nature and nurture. But she very much is like, there's gotta be a genetic component. And she has a quote. If a child suddenly at age 3, goes to the piano and picks out a tune and does it beautifully, this has to be because that child has a different brain. And I totally agree. Like, there's something you're born with. If you've ever seen the videos of Tiger woods when he's like, 2 years old with a pretty perfect golf swing. Like, it's something that someone is born with.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right. There's also. Julia found a quote from an editor of Vanity Fair who mentioned Elizabeth Benson, who we'll talk about a little bit more. But he agreed that it was probably biology, but he ascribed it to a perfect functioning of her endocrine glands.

[Jerry]

So interesting.

[Chuck Bryant]

He figured it was glandular is what was behind being a prodigy.

[Jerry]

Correct.

[Chuck Bryant]

But the point is, it was biology. And this is 1913, by the way.

[Jerry]

So, like, right now.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right now, it's. No, it's not 1913. It's 1983.

[Jerry]

Oh, God. Thank God I've got on My sun britches and my OP tank top.

[Chuck Bryant]

I know. You look kind of out of place, man.

[Jerry]

So the other thing about genetics is you can see it in, like, you know, there can be siblings that are prodigies, like together, I guess, co prodigies.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Jerry]

So it definitely sort of leans to the idea that it could be genetic. There are quite a few male, very famous male composers who had sisters who were also prodigies and amazing composers and pianists or violinists or what have you. But they didn't get the, you know, the attention that their, you know, brother, sibling counterparts got because they were girls. Maria Mozart was one. Felix Mendelsohn had a sister named Fanny who was a music prodigy. And then others that you often see mentioned, obviously, are Venus and Serena Williams and then the Polger sisters, who were Judit, Susan and Sophia. They were chess prodigies.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right. And you were thinking about Pope & Co. As a sitcom. Well, I was studying this. I noticed Felix and Fanny would make a good children's book series, right?

[Jerry]

Oh, yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Like, I just imagine them as little kids and in between piano lessons, they go off and solve mysteries together. Felix and Fanny series. And so anytime I think of children's books, I think of our literary agent, our former agent, Stephen Barr.

[Jerry]

Oh, yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

So I looked him up to say hi, and I was looking him up on the Internet. He has his own children's book that he wrote and published. It's called the Upside Down Hat. And so I emailed him and congratulated him. I was very excited to see that. Yeah. And he's got some more coming, too.

[Jerry]

Steven was the best, and I knew he had a kid since we had worked with him. So that's super cool. I love that.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. He's got two now. He says two kids or two children's books? Two kids. Three children's books, including the two that are coming out soon.

[Jerry]

Well, I guess he needs to get a third kid at the max, Right?

[Chuck Bryant]

One for each. Yeah, it's called the Upside Down Hat, and it's pretty cute looking.

[Jerry]

Oh, that's wonderful. So I guess let's take a break. Well, I guess the last thing we should say is, you know, I mentioned sort of the perfect storm of things to make a prodigy. And that definitely seems to be the consensus. Like, there's some genetics at play, but the cognitive, developmental, and environmental factors are all kind of coming together at the same time to lead to that, what Ellen Winter calls a rage to master, which we're going to talk about out of the break. That seems to be the recipe.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right? It makes me wonder, like how many things have we just not understood that we could have already had we not constantly been trying to boil everything down to one thing, like this is one cause for all this other stuff? Like is it nature? Is it nurture? No, it's both. And I'm glad to see that prodigy researchers have accepted that fact.

[Jerry]

Agreed.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay, well, let's take that break then.

[Jerry]

All right, we'll be right back.

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[Janae]

When I became a journalist, I was the first Latina in the newsrooms where I worked. I'm Maria Hinojosa. I dreamt of having a place where voices that have been historically sidelined would instead be. For over 30 years now, Latino USA has been that place. This is Latino USA, the radio journal of News and Cultura. As the longest running Latino news and culture show in the United States, Latino USA delivers the stories that truly matter to all of us. From sharp and deep analysis of the.

[Jerry]

Most pressing news, they're creating this narrative.

[Josh Clark]

That immigrants are criminals.

[Chuck Bryant]

This is about everyone's freedom of speech. Nobody expected two popes from the American.

[Janae]

Continent to stories about our cultures and our identities.

[Chuck Bryant]

When you do get a trans character like Emilia Perez, the trans community is going to push back on that colorism.

[Jerry]

All of these things that exist in.

[Janae]

Mexican culture and Latino culture. You'll hear from people like Congresswoman aoc.

[Maria Hinojosa]

I don't want to give them my fear. I'm not going to give them my fear.

[Janae]

Listen to Latino USA as part of the My Cultura Podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your PODC podcasts.

[Josh Clark]

Hi, everyone. It's Janae, aka Cheekies from Cheekies and Chill Podcast, and I'm launching an all new mini podcast series called Sincerely Janae. Sure, I'm a singer, author, businesswoman, and podcaster, but at the end of the day, I am human, and that's why I'm sharing my ups and downs with you guys. Hi, guys. I was sitting here recording episodes of Dear Cheekies and Cheekies and Chill, and I just had to take a timeout and purge my thoughts and feelings here on Sincerely Janae because I've been so emotional lately, you guys. Whether I'm in my feels, I've just had a breakthrough with my therapist, or I've just had a really deep conversation with my siblings, or I'm in glam getting ready for an award show, I'm sharing my most intimate thoughts with you on the podcast. You guys know I always keep it real with you guys, but this time, I'm taking it to the next level.

[Chuck Bryant]

Level.

[Josh Clark]

Listen to Cheekies and chill on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jerry]

All right, so I mentioned the phrase rage to master, and that was something I believe Ellen Winner came up with. And that's kind of exactly what it sounds like, which is something that they found with prodigies at these. These little kids come out of the womb, they get to be like 2, maybe 3 years old, and all of a sudden, out of nowhere, they exhibit a gift, and that's the only thing they want to do. And this is not some kid who's like, hey, they turned out to be pretty good at this. And they played a lot of piano. Like, we're talking about prodigies. Like, they become obsessed with. They have a rage to master this thing.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And it's just basically like they. They ignore everything else, even stuff that. That little kids would want to do. Like, fun playing stuff, going to the.

[Jerry]

Movies or whatever, making friends.

[Chuck Bryant]

All they want to do. Yeah, all they want to do is that one thing over and over and over again and master it. And so there's a researcher named Larry Vandervoort who believes that it has to do with the connection between the cerebellum and the cerebral cortex. And the reason he focuses in on the cerebellum is because apparently that is where we learn things. We become experts in things, we learn to practice things. And the cerebellum has a bunch of connections to the cerebral cortex. Cerebral cortex is in charge of our higher functioning. So with those Two combined together, working together, us doing things repetitively is how we learn to get better and better at it. Right. His whole thing is that with a prodigy, what we're seeing is the evolution of humanity at its brightest point. Like, these are examples of what could conceivably be every single person if that perfect storm you're talking about came together. And it's just like the most finely tuned, functioning example of what our brains have evolved to be able to do. That's what he says prodigies are.

[Jerry]

Yeah, it's pretty interesting. He theorizes that the cerebellum creates some kind of feedback loop, is what he calls it, where you have some kind of selective affinity or a talent or an interest in something. And getting better at that. I mean, it's gotta be like a dopamine reward or something. Like, it hits those reward centers and there's some sort of psychological gold star that you give yourself. And that feels so good that the kid with a prodigious brain is constantly seeking that reward. And it creates what he calls a maximal grip. Like, this grip has just got hold of this kid because they're always seeking that mental gold star of getting better and better and better at that one thing.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, Right. So it's almost like they have no chill. Right. It's like their brains get stuck in a natural progression or natural part of developing as a human being from childhood to adulthood, and they just go off like a rocket. On that one tangent.

[Jerry]

Yeah. That was not me.

[Chuck Bryant]

No, it wasn't me either.

[Jerry]

I can do a lot of things pretty good.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. A dilettante.

[Jerry]

Yeah. I mean, that's always been my thing, like, with sports. I was never, like, built the way you needed to be built to play, like, varsity sports. But I could throw a football and catch a football and punt a football. And I could play a little tennis. I can play a little golf. I can, you know, I played, you know, a little baseball, a little softball, a little soccer. I can kick a soccer ball.

[Chuck Bryant]

Wow.

[Jerry]

I can throw Frisbee. Like, you know, I'm well rounded athletically, but I was never gonna be on a. Like a high school team.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right. I gotcha.

[Jerry]

I was okay in church league.

[Chuck Bryant]

Everybody wins.

[Jerry]

But I wouldn't embarrass myself in anything.

[Chuck Bryant]

You know, I excelled as a child in hiding my knockoff Flintstone vitamins in my Lincoln log houses. Cause they were so disgusting. I couldn't eat them. Man, they were gross. I can actually almost make myself nauseated thinking about them now. Really.

[Jerry]

Betty was not a vitamin I don't remember that.

[Chuck Bryant]

Was she not. She was missing?

[Jerry]

I don't think so. Because there was a local band in Atlanta called Betty's Not a Vitamin.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, okay.

[Jerry]

Because of that factoid.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, had she been in the Flintstone knockoff vitamins I had, she would have looked all misshapen and her name would have been like Teddy or something like that with two, with three T's.

[Jerry]

I love it.

[Chuck Bryant]

There's one other thing about Larry Vandivert's hypothesis about the cerebellum because he said, you know, this is a weird, like, example of human, natural human development. He pointed out that part of what being a prodigy is excelling at something cultural. Right. Like everything that prodigy kids do, they're not inventing anything. They're just getting good at something that already exists.

[Jerry]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

So part of his theory or hypothesis is that you couldn't have a prodigy by definition before the advent of culture. So he theorizes that probably about 10,000 years ago is when the first prodigy started to pop up.

[Jerry]

Oh, interesting. I thought that was son or daughter.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, maybe Great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great. Grandson or daughter.

[Jerry]

Okay, yeah, good point.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's my posit.

[Jerry]

I never remember when Tuk Tuk lived. So you know me, I get a little confused.

[Chuck Bryant]

He's all over the place.

[Jerry]

So another really interesting biological piece to this is memory. And working memory is something that they found, I think. There was a paper in researchers Urbach and Ruth Satz. They gathered cognitive data from eight child prodigies. And they looked at a couple of things. They looked at their developmental history. They looked at scores on The Stanford Bineth 5th Edition Intelligence Test and the Autism Spectrum Quotient. And they found, you know, there were different range of IQs, but even the ones that had high IQs weren't on the extreme end of like, you know, super genius or anything. But what they did find was that every single one of them were in the 99th percentile for working memory.

[Chuck Bryant]

I saw some also scored in the 99.9 percentile.

[Jerry]

Yeah. So there's something there.

[Chuck Bryant]

I was reading, I think, a Scientific American article on this and they said that if you just randomly selected eight people and gave them this test, there's a zero chance that they would all score in the 99th percentile. So, yeah, it is quite a finding. But I think also like a really important finding too is that their IQs aren't particularly eye popping.

[Jerry]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

You know, some of them were, I think past 140. And that's the, the 140 is the minimum for genius. 130, I think, is where being gifted starts. At least one of them had an IQ of a hundred. And that is exactly average iq.

[Jerry]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

So IQ or intelligence, or at least the way that we understand measuring intelligence with IQ doesn't seem to have that much to do with being a prodigy. Has some, because again, 100, I think, was the minimum and they went up to genius level and passed. But it doesn't have nearly as much as you would think.

[Jerry]

Yeah, for sure. But working memory, like, that's really interesting to me because that's the last. Like, that's your active working memory, the last few things that have happened, calling those up really easily. So if you're talking, you know, about obviously with, you know, musicianship and chess and math and things like that, like being able to really quickly recall the last few notes you played or the last few parts of this logarithm, that's. That's gonna have a big impact, obviously, for sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

There's a good example that I found of that John von Neumann, who would go on to become a great mathematician, physicist, pioneer in computer science. He, as a child prodigy, would entertain his parents, friends at their parties by. They'd give him a phone book and he would read over one of the pages and then hand the phone book back. And they'd ask him questions like, what's. You know, they'd pick a name and say, what's their phone number and address? And he'd tell them, and then they'd say, well, recite this whole page. And he would recite it verbatim just after looking at it for a little while, which is an amazing example of working memory. But that's also. I mean, he was a phone book prodigy, pure and simple.

[Jerry]

As you know, I recently had lunch with a friend of the show and pal Kevin Pollock, the actor and comedian. And sadly, you were out of town, so you couldn't go. But Pollock's first. His first act was not doing it because he's a great impressionist, as we all know, not doing impressions of comedy albums like a lot of kids. The first thing they do is like, just repeat the bits from comedy records or specials, right? He would. He would mouth them in perfect synchronicity.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, wow.

[Jerry]

So he would do air. Air comedy. And he would do like the throat clears and everything. And he did it, you know, as like. I don't know how young he was. He said he was like 6 or 7. To where like one of his mom's neighbors or one of his Neighbors or one of his mom's friends was like, you're doing this at the, you know, the Shine Bombs bar mitzvah next week. Like, I'm booking you. And he was like, for the first time, six years or so of his life, like he did at school, like, my act was completely just mouthing these comedy bits.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's pretty awesome. Yeah, that's pretty funny. It's impressive. He was a Richard Pryor comedy album prodigy.

[Jerry]

Well, I mean, he made a good point, which was he was like, the material killed because the material was great, because it was like the best comics. And he went. And then I got it down so good, that part killed. And he was like, I couldn't fail, basically.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's pretty great, man. Yeah.

[Jerry]

Fun story.

[Chuck Bryant]

Um. Oh, yeah. So one other thing about working memory, Chuck, before we move on it, one of the things that it helps with is learning things like chess or math or things that have steps to them. You're keeping the information you need to complete this step so you can move on to the next. And you're probably also thinking about what the next step is, too, simultaneously. Working memory really comes in handy for that. So it makes sense that they have just amazing working memory levels.

[Jerry]

Yeah. And the connection to autism is really interesting, too, because in that paper, you know, and from 2012, I mentioned that they looked at cognitive data for several things, one of which was the autism spectrum quotient. And they found it. You know, they found a pretty undeniable connection. They found that subjects who were prodigies had definitely had more autistic relatives than the general population does, and very high scores in the attention to detail part of the autism spectra quotient. So attention to detail is something obviously, if you have a gift for, you might wind up a prodigy.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. But they didn't score high or beyond the general population in the other parts of the autism spectrum quotient. So they don't have autism. I think that's because there's a separate group where if you have, like, severe autism or some other cognitive difference, you are a savant. You're not a prodigy, you're a savant. Even though the stuff you're doing is prodigious, It's.

[Jerry]

Yeah, you're.

[Chuck Bryant]

You're considered separate for some reason. I don't know why, but that seems to still be the case.

[Jerry]

Yeah, that's interesting. Those same two researchers, Ruth Zotz and. Was it Ulbach? Ulrak. Urbach. Urbach.

[Chuck Bryant]

Jerry Orbach.

[Jerry]

Jerry Orbach. They authored a second paper, and this was from 2014, where they studied 18 prodigies this time. And they were masters, these 18 in either math, music or art. And some of the patterns they found were pretty interesting. They all had that same great working memory, so that was sort of proved out a little further even. But the music and math prodigy scored a lot higher on working memory than even the art prodigies. And this was super interesting to me. The math prodigies displayed the highest levels of overall intelligence and extraordinary visual spatial skills, whereas the art prodigies had the lowest visual spatial scores.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Which is weird.

[Jerry]

Yeah. Counterintuitive.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Should we take a break or keep going?

[Jerry]

Yeah, let's take a break.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay, we're going to take a break, everybody. Here we go.

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[Janae]

When I became a journalist, I was the first Latina in the newsrooms where I worked. I'm Maria Hinojosa. I dreamt of having a place where voices that have been historically, historically sidelined would instead be centered. For over 30 years now, Latino USA has been that place. This is Latino USA, the radio journal of news and cultura. As the longest running Latino news and culture show in the United States, Latino USA delivers the stories that truly matter to all of us. From sharp and deep analysis of the most pressing news, they're creating this narrative.

[Josh Clark]

That immigrants are criminals.

[Chuck Bryant]

This is about everyone's freedom of speech. Nobody expected two popes from the American.

[Janae]

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[Chuck Bryant]

When you do get a trans character like Emilia Perez, the trans community is going to push back on that colorism.

[Jerry]

All of these things that exist in.

[Janae]

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[Janae]

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[Josh Clark]

Hi, everyone, it's Janae, AKA Cheekies from Cheekies and Chill Podcast, and I'm launching an all new mini podcast series called Sincerely Janae. Sure, I'm a singer, author, businesswoman, and podcaster, but at the end of the day, I am human, and that's why I'm sharing my ups and downs with you guys. Hi, guys. I was sitting here recording episodes of Dear Cheekies and Cheeky's Chill, and I just had to take a timeout and purge my thoughts and feelings here on Sincerely Janae because I've been so emotional lately, you guys. Whether I'm in my feels, I've just had a breakthrough with my therapist, or I've just had a really deep conversation with my siblings, or I'm in glam getting ready for an award show, I'm sharing my most intimate thoughts with you on the podcast. You guys know I always keep it real with you guys, but this time I'm taking it to the next level. Listen to Cheekies and chill on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay, Chuck, so we've talked a couple of times about how prodigy experts agree that it does seem to be a combination of nature and nurture. I think perfect storm is a term that people use a lot. So the, the, the parents of a prodigy definitely do have a role in, in their development as a prodigy. And there have been parents of prodigies who have really kind of claimed that they're essentially responsible for their child's prodigy. There was a, I think William James Siddis's dad. Remember we did a whole episode on that. Poor guy.

[Jerry]

Oh, yeah, his dad.

[Chuck Bryant]

What's this deal? He was one of the most amazing child prodigies of all time. Just beyond gifted, just dusted other prodigies, like, made him look like just lumps of unmolded clay done by a artist prodigy with terrible visual spatial skills, essentially.

[Jerry]

I love it.

[Chuck Bryant]

But he was worth his whole. His own episode. It was a good episode. But his dad, Boris, was taught him from a very early age, essentially from basically when he was born, and he, he essentially claimed responsibility. There's another very famous prodigy whose name was Winifred Sackville Stoner Jr. And her mom was Winifred Sackville Stoner Senior and her mom claimed responsibility for her child's prodigy. We'll talk a little bit more about them. But parents do play a huge role, even when, even if it's not quite as far as some of them boast.

[Jerry]

Yeah, I mean, you know, if you're going to be a prodigy at golf or tennis or, you know, piano or something like that, it requires, you know, those, those things aren't cheap. I mean, certainly there are stories of people who, from a family that maybe, you know, didn't have the kind of resources that other families might have that, that, you know, find a local municipal golf course where they can go and play super cheap. But those are like, those are kind of rich kids. Sports pianos cost a lot of money. So a lot of times with these, if you look at the parents and the family situation, they are very involved parents who have resources to make it happen, not only with equipment, but dedicating the time and hiring a lot of times at very expensive hourly rates like masters in that thing to help teach that kid.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, you can boil it down to a handful of factors that parents play a large role in. First, you have to start with the kid has a natural ability. Right. You don't teach that. That has to exist already.

[Jerry]

Yes.

[Chuck Bryant]

Then the kid has to have access to those teachers. And like you said, these aren't Joe Schmo teachers, like teaching out of their house on the side for a little extra cash. These are like the best of the best teacher experts in this field. That's who the parents need to have the resources to pay. And those teachers have to come in at just the right moment. I don't think it's necessarily down to the minute, but they have to come pretty early in the kid's development so that the kid doesn't get bored because they've gone as far as they can go or because they don't necessarily understand what would even be next.

[Jerry]

Yeah. Or, you know, you might get lucky and have that within your own family. Like I, I mean, I think Wolfgang Van Halen.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Jerry]

I don't know at what age he achieved his level of talent, but you know, he had a built in situation with his father and was the touring bassist and backup singer with Van Halen when He was like 16 years old and can play everything. Like, I mean, he's not just a guitar guy, but he plays on his records with his band Mammoth. He plays it all. He plays the drums, he plays the keyboards, he plays the bass, he plays the guitar, he does all the singing. He's like, you know, he's a prodigy and he had a built in teacher as a, you know, one of the greatest guitar players of all time.

[Chuck Bryant]

I thought you were joking. I didn't realize that Eddie Van Halen's son is named Wolfgang. I thought you were making a joke about Mozart.

[Jerry]

Well, no, I mean that is kind of funny.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, Mozart's father is. He was a music teacher as well.

[Jerry]

Or a musician and his name was Eddie Van Halen, ironically.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right. Yeah. So yeah, if you have a, like you said, a built in family member already that's, that's knows what they're doing and can teach you at least early on, that helps a lot. I think also Picasso, his father was an art instructor, but he.

[Jerry]

Oh, I didn't know that he.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, Picasso just excelled way beyond his father very, very early on. I think his father also kind of took that a little personally. Seems like the type of.

[Jerry]

Yeah. And you know, there are some exceptions here, like with everything. It's not like every single prodigy has had the means and the resources and the parents that threw everything at them to try and help them. And one notable exception Julia found was Blaise Pascal, the French math prodigy. He was born in 1623 and at the beginning of his schooling, his dad, very famous mathematician Etienne Pascal said I want my kid to learn more than math. And math is so interesting. If he gets a hold of these math books, he's going to ignore everything else because math is so incredible. And so he hid all the math books in his house. But young Pascal got an outdated math book somehow that was in English, even though he only spoke French. And he was so smart and such a prodigy. He translated that and reinvented parts of that of like geometry in that book that, that weren't in the book.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right? Yeah. He also came up with probability theory later on. Like he, he was definitely a math prodigy. And so he overcame an absence of material. There's also some good examples of prodigies who overcame a, like an absence of resources. Right. So like they came from very poor families. Like Stevie Wonder is a very good example of that. Self taught musician on all sorts of different instruments. And his parents did not have the resources to buy him all these things. There was another guy from the turn of the last century named Srinivasa Ramanujan and he was very poor in India, came from a very poor family. And he like Blaise Pascal, got his hands on an outdated math book and just taught himself math and became. He ended up studying at Cambridge.

[Jerry]

Yeah, for sure. I mean There are definitely those examples, but there are also on the other side, like plenty of examples of the nurture thing going in a bad direction where the parents have. And I know Julie didn't cover this, but in our book we covered. Do you remember who wrote that chapter, by the way?

[Chuck Bryant]

I think it was yours.

[Jerry]

I think it was too. So long ago, I don't remember.

[Chuck Bryant]

I know what you mean, but I.

[Jerry]

Think it might have been mine because I remember very much wanting to include and did include in the book the story of Todd Marinovich, who was a prodigious quarterback. And another example is Jennifer Capriotti, the tennis prodigy. They were kids who were both excelling to the point where they were young teenagers and Sports Illustrated being written about. And they were pushed by these overbearing fathers in their case, and they both burned out and washed out and ended up, you know, having problems with drugs and problems with the law and stuff like that. So there are some pretty sad cases there where parents take what could potentially be a good thing and just ruin it because they're parents.

[Chuck Bryant]

You know, I was reading today about Venus and Serena Williams and their tennis prodigy status, I guess. But yeah, Richard, their father, Richard Williams, he had Venus turn Pro at age 14 because the USTA was about to release the Capriati rule, which was like, you can't turn pro after a certain age because Jennifer Capriotti was such a cautionary tale. So before the rule could be passed, Richard was like, you're turning pro now. And her debut, she beat number 66 and almost beat number the top seeded player at her first, her first professional tournament, age 14. Yeah.

[Jerry]

Boy, those Williams sisters were fun. Or still are fun to watch. I didn't see that movie, did you, King Richard?

[Chuck Bryant]

No, I didn't.

[Jerry]

Okay, moving on.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, we have nothing to say about it then, apparently.

[Jerry]

Well, speaking of moving on, we're to the point where we talk about when you're not a prodigy anymore, because you mentioned early on, you know, once you have mastered this thing, that's it. And a lot of times that is it. Some, you know, there are different stories. Some flame out and go down a bad road. Some go on to have, you know, great careers doing their thing. Like you mentioned Mozart, obviously, but some go on to have great careers and it's not like a super famous situation like Mozart, but they do great for themselves. But, you know, it's like being a child movie star. Like once you reach a certain age, that sort of appeal might be over. The adorableness of the kid that can play the piano at 10 years old and you're just an adult who can play the piano really well and all of a sudden you're not special anymore. And that can lead to a big fall.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, yeah, it can. Cause you're essentially. Especially at the early on in the 20th century when the papers would track you down and ask your opinion as a child prodigy, you were a child star, essentially. And that is not something that society has figured out how to handle properly. We don't know what to do with child stars, so instead we just chew them up and spit them out and say, good luck, we don't need you any longer. That same effect in general can happen to child prodigies. And one really good example is Bobby Fischer. He's the cautionary tale for child prodigies and how bad things can get after you're not a prodigy anymore.

[Jerry]

Yeah, for sure. He was the chess prodigy. I've recommended it before. But the great, great film, Searching for Bobby Fischer is so, so good. Highly recommended. But he was born in Chicago in the 40s, was playing competitive chess by the age of eight and won the US Open at 14 and became the youngest International Grandmaster at 15 years old in 1958. 15 years old in six months. But when his career fell, he fell hard and spent a couple of decades roaming around Southern California destitute. He spent nine months in a Japanese prison and is kind of known for the last couple of decades of his life as being a pretty hateful anti. Semite.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, yeah. I don't know if he had a blog or something like that, but after 9, 11, he publicly celebrated it on his blog. He really just took some seriously weird turns. And yeah, he was. He's just a great example of how bad things can get after society's done with you and you're not. You're not useful anymore. Not adorable or noteworthy. I think also he clearly had some mental health issues that were. Yeah, probably going to emerge either way. But yeah, yeah, being a child prodigy and just. It's such a weird way to grow up. That could not have helped at all.

[Jerry]

Yeah. And there are other cases of kids. And here's a piece of advice. You can do what you want if you got a really pretty genius kid, but don't send your kid to college at like 12 years old. No, I don't see that ever leading to good things. I think you should try and normalize a child's childhood as much as possible. Even if they're unchallenged in school. There are other ways that you can foster that I think besides saying you're going to Harvard at 11 and, and you're going to be in the newspapers for that. The case of Elizabeth Benson. She was a 214/iq kid who went to college at 12 and graduated and disappeared. And later on there was one of those like, where are they now? Articles. And this is no shade at somebody who's a cashier. It's a fine job and we need cashiers. But the article very much was like, this former child prodigy is now just a cashier. And that was sort of how it was framed.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. But despite that, she kept like batting away that, that kind of sentiment and just talking about how happy she was. She's, she was married. She was very happy with her very normal life with her very normal husband. And this is a person like a 214 has a plus next to it, which might as well be an asterisk. She scored perfectly on an IQ test. And the reason that plus is there is because they imagined she could have kept going, but they ran out of questions. Anybody got a question? Yeah. So she, and she even considered herself in the article. She said, you know, based on the stories of some of my peers, like, I actually got off pretty well. Like, I'm happy with life as an adult.

[Jerry]

Right. Yeah, yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

But, yeah, she's, she's an example of one that went pretty well. But the best that you could do if you don't eventually turn into an adult who starts contributing greatly to your fields of interest, like Mozart, like John von Neumann, like Pablo Picasso, the best you can hope for is to lead a normal life as an adult. You know, I keep, I keep thinking.

[Jerry]

You'Re going to say Jon Bon Jovi every time.

[Chuck Bryant]

I know. I keep wanting to call him Johan too, and it's not.

[Jerry]

Oh, interesting.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Jerry]

You mentioned Winifred Sackville Stoner Jr. Early on. She was a language prodigy in the early 20th century, probably most famous for. In 1492, Columbus sailed the Ocean Blue was written by Winifred Sackville Stoner Jr. But her mom was one of those parents that really, really pushed her, apparently, and gained a lot of fame like the mother did. She wrote books about. It was sort of like Royal Tannenbaums when Etheline Tannenbaum talked about her prodigious family of children. And I think we mentioned the Tannenbaums in the book, of course, because I wrote that chapter and that's one of my favorite movies. But the mom gained a lot of attention and was on the lecture circuit and stuff like that. And the daughter was like, take my advice, dear mothers, spare your children from so called fame, which easily turns to shame. And be happy if you have a happy, healthy, contented boy or girl.

[Chuck Bryant]

Mm.

[Jerry]

Amen to that.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, it's great advice. Great advice. So if you have a child prodigy on your hands, tread carefully, consult experts. Maybe get in touch with Ellen Winner. I'm sure she'd be very happy to speak with you and tell you what not to do. So there you go. That's our annual dose of advice for the parents of child prodigies.

[Jerry]

Yeah. And I also want to say, I bet it's not the easiest thing, though, to be fair to parents. You know, it's. It puts him in a tough position. If your kid is obsessed with this one thing and clearly super gifted because you don't want to squash that. So it's a tightrope you're walking there. So I get it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. It's not a position I would necessarily want to be in, but heck, no. You got some really great fodder for your annual Christmas letter that you send out with your Christmas card.

[Jerry]

Yeah, for sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

You want to make your sister and Boise feel jealous. You talk about. You talk, talk about your child prodigy and what they're doing. Yeah.

[Jerry]

I've only known one person in my life that does that, and that is in Emily's family. Her Aunt Peg sends out the annual Christmas sort of family catch up thing. And I've always just been delighted to read it and thought it was super cool and wondered why no one in my lousy family ever cared enough to do anything like that.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's a very sohio thing to do.

[Jerry]

Oh, is it? Okay.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure.

[Jerry]

I get it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Before we go on to listener mailchuck, I just want to point out a couple of at least one good band and album named Rage to master.

[Jerry]

Oh, very nice.

[Chuck Bryant]

And then I think you could make a pretty good Bon Jovi tribute band with Johan Bon Jovi.

[Jerry]

Right. Or Jon Bonyohi.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, there you go. John von Neumann. No one would get that except for stuff you should know, listeners. Yeah, that's true. What were you gonna say? Because I wanted.

[Jerry]

You know what I was gonna say.

[Chuck Bryant]

You say it.

[Jerry]

Bada Bing, bada boom, Bon Jovi.

[Chuck Bryant]

And there, Chuck has unlocked listener mail.

[Jerry]

This is a correction of sorts. And this is something I didn't know. I'm glad to know. When we did our USAID episode, we were talking about condoms for Gaza. This is from Bernie. He said, I think you guys did a great job. Just wanted to clarify something, $50 million for condoms was not for Gaza, as in Gaza next to Israel, it was for Gaza province in Mozambique. Elon Musk even corrected this in one of his weird Oval Office press conferences, but as you said, the sound bite had already gone out and people did not want to hear any retraction to what they now believe. So glad. So glad you guys covered this topic. It's so important globally. Someone who's been in this line of work for my entire adult life, this episode really hit home to me. Keep up the great work. All the best. Bernie Fisher Chavez Thanks a lot Bernie.

[Chuck Bryant]

That was very gentle correction and we appreciate those rather than I can't believe you guys screwed this up this badly, which we get once in a while. But for the most part we hear gentle corrections like Bernie. So hats off to you and thanks for setting us straight, Bernie. If you want to be like Bernie and send us an email, you can. You can send it off to stuffpodcastheartradio.com.

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