D'oh! Operation Flagship

Summary

Stuff You Should Know: Episode Summary – "D'oh! Operation Flagship"

Release Date: February 13, 2025
Hosts: Josh Clark and Chuck Bryant
Production: iHeartPodcasts

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Introduction to Operation Flagship

In the "D'oh! Operation Flagship" episode of Stuff You Should Know, hosts Josh Clark and Chuck Bryant delve into one of the most audacious and cutesy law enforcement operations in U.S. history: Operation Flagship. This episode explores the intricacies of the U.S. Marshals Service's creative sting operations aimed at capturing fugitives during the mid-1980s.

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The U.S. Marshals Service: A Historical Overview

Josh begins by providing a comprehensive background of the U.S. Marshals Service, highlighting its founding in 1789 and its evolution over centuries. From escorting students into segregated schools and enforcing Prohibition to operating the U.S. Census, the Marshals have played diverse roles in American law enforcement.

[02:36] Chuck Bryant: "Just give them a bunch of pencils."

This quote underscores the humorous notion of assigning seemingly trivial tasks to a robust law enforcement body.

Previous Sting Operations by the U.S. Marshals

Before Operation Flagship, the U.S. Marshals Service had already experimented with unconventional sting operations:

1. Mr. Zip: Marshals dressed as mail carriers would deliver fake packages declaring recipients under arrest.

   [05:22] Chuck Bryant: "They’re gonna use their FIST to get you right up your bum."

2. Puno Airlines: A mock airline offering free trips to the Bahamas, enticing fugitives to come forward and get arrested discreetly.

   [07:06] Josh Clark: "Do you think anybody would ever name their airline Fist Airline?"

3. Prior Offenders Employment Opportunity Program: Advertised fake job opportunities to lure fugitives seeking employment reinstatement.

   [10:07] Chuck Bryant: "You might think it's mean to say you've won tickets to the Bahamas, but it’s really mean for someone to want to start their life over and get a regular job."

These operations were characterized by their humorous acronyms and playful deception, aiming to capture multiple fugitives simultaneously in cost-effective and safe manners.

Operation Flagship: Planning and Preparation

Operation Flagship stands out as the pinnacle of these creative stings. Conceived by Howard Safir, then-head of enforcement operations, and Robert Leshorn, the operation aimed to capture a significant number of high-profile fugitives through an elaborate ruse involving free football tickets.

[16:46] Chuck Bryant: "That's right. As a matter of fact, we should probably just stop after this one, because no scam in the history of law enforcement has ever been greater than this one."

Key Planning Elements:

• Fake TV Station: They created "Flagship International Sports Television" (FIST), complete with spoof management names like IM Detnaw ("I am wanted" spelled backwards) and Marcus Cran ("narc" spelled backwards).

  [21:15] Chuck Bryant: "You can see this whole thing play out. It’s incredible. But it looks like a room staffed with 166 cops dressed up as different things."

• Grand Prize: Offering free Washington Redskins (now Washington Commanders) game tickets and a chance to win Super Bowl tickets to entice fugitives.

• Rehearsals: The operation was meticulously rehearsed three times to ensure smooth execution, involving 166 law enforcement agents disguised in various roles, including cheerleaders and limo drivers.

Execution of Operation Flagship

On December 15, 1985, the Washington Convention Center was transformed into a glamorous event space where fugitives believed they had won free tickets to a coveted football game. The atmosphere was festive, with music, balloons, and Marshals disguised as event staff greeting attendees.

Event Highlights:

• Cheerleaders as Marshals: Marshals dressed as cheerleaders greeted fugitives with hugs and pat-downs without revealing their true identities.

  [33:27] Josh Clark: "So what they would do is the cheerleaders would hug you as you were coming in. Would not accept kisses, it turns out, but they would hug you, pat you down..."

• Sting Phase: Fugitives were escorted to separate conference rooms where they were presented with their "winnings." Once confirmed as wanted, they received name tags indicating their status and were swiftly arrested by the concealed SWAT-style Marshals.

  [38:34] Josh Clark: "I have to say something really quickly. ... within seconds of reading that part, it reaches the part in the Beach Boys album where they say, you're under arrest."

• Media Presence: The event was covered by major media outlets like the LA Times, CBS News, and the Washington Post, amplifying the Marshals' success and public perception.

Aftermath and Impact

Operation Flagship resulted in the arrest of approximately 1,600 fugitives, making it the largest fugitive roundup in American history at the time. The operation was lauded for its efficiency and creativity, operating at a cost significantly lower than traditional methods.

[42:22] Chuck Bryant: "But if you do the math on 101 arrest, it cost them $22,100 to pull this off. That breaks down to just $218 if they got 101 arrests."

However, subsequent investigations revealed critical flaws:

• Misidentification: The Marshals mistakenly arrested Charles Watkins Sr. instead of his son, the actual fugitive, highlighting significant oversight.

• Ethical Concerns: Many of those arrested were low-level offenders or cleared due to minor violations, raising questions about the ethical implications of such mass arrests based on deceptive tactics.

[46:08] Chuck Bryant: "Yeah, I mean, it was mainly misdemeanor offenders, a lot of parole violations. There were six traffic offenses in there."

Legacy of Operation Flagship

Despite its controversies, Operation Flagship remains a noteworthy example of innovative law enforcement tactics. It influenced subsequent operations and has been referenced in popular culture, including episodes of The Simpsons and movies like Sea of Love. The operation's depiction in an NFL Films documentary has cemented its place in law enforcement lore, albeit with ongoing debates about its effectiveness and morality.

[48:35] Chuck Bryant: "Yeah, yeah. That was copped directly from this."

Cultural References and Listener Interactions

The hosts also touch upon cultural elements inspired by Operation Flagship, such as its portrayal in media and its influence on fictional sting operations in television and film. Additionally, they engage with listeners through shout-outs and discuss related topics like law enforcement in popular culture and the humorous aspects of mimicking such operations.

[51:43] Chuck Bryant: "I love stuff like that."

Conclusion

"D'oh! Operation Flagship" provides an in-depth exploration of one of the most unconventional law enforcement operations in U.S. history. Through engaging storytelling and insightful analysis, Josh Clark and Chuck Bryant shed light on the successes, failures, and enduring legacy of Operation Flagship, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of its place in law enforcement and popular culture.

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Notable Quotes:

• Chuck Bryant [00:26]: "If you're a criminal and you ever think something might be shady and it might be a sting operation, just look at any name that they've given you and read it backwards..."

• Chuck Bryant [05:22]: "They’re gonna use their FIST to get you right up your bum."

• Chuck Bryant [16:46]: "That's right. As a matter of fact, we should probably just stop after this one, because no scam in the history of law enforcement has ever been greater than this one."

• Chuck Bryant [38:34]: "I have to say something really quickly. ... within seconds of reading that part, it reaches the part in the Beach Boys album where they say, you're under arrest."

• Chuck Bryant [42:22]: "But if you do the math on 101 arrest, it cost them $22,100 to pull this off. That breaks down to just $218 if they got 101 arrests."

• Chuck Bryant [51:43]: "I love stuff like that."

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For more engaging insights and detailed explorations of fascinating topics, tune into Stuff You Should Know on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Chuck Bryant]

Welcome to Stuff youf Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

[Josh Clark]

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's here, too. And this is stuff you should know. The Freeze edition.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, you know what edition this is? This is the law enforcement sometimes thinks they're so cute and clever. Addition.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

Man, I can't wait to point out how many cutesy little names and acronyms pop up in this story. And this. And a lesson. If you're a criminal and you ever think something might be shady and it might be a sting operation, just look at any name that they've given you and read it backwards or see if it spells an acronym that says, like, we nabbed you, buddy or something like that. That's how cutesy they got is. Then you'll see. I'll just throw that out there and we'll talk about them as they pop up.

[Josh Clark]

Yep. And there's our daily assistance in helping criminals evade capture by law enforcement.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Was that what I was doing? I certainly was. All right, moving on.

[Josh Clark]

So we're talking about one specific operation, Operation Flagship, which was conducted by the U.S. marshal Service back in, I think, 1985. And it's just kind of mind boggling. Where'd you hear about this? Did somebody write in, or did you already know about it? Being an NFL fan and a kid.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, you know what? I'm not sure, now that I think of it, this may have been a listener request, and I'm going to look that up real quick because I hate not shouting people out. Yeah, I'm with you when that happens.

[Josh Clark]

Well, how about I keep talking while you look?

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay.

[Josh Clark]

So the U.S. marshal Service, they're one of the first American law enforcement agencies. They were founded back in 1789. Dave helped us with this. It's Dave week, by the way. As Dave put it, in the time of George Washington. So they've been around quite a bit, and over the course of this history, like, they've done a lot of different, really kind of great stuff. They. They escorted students into the first segregated schools. Black students to segregated schools. They protected them. They enforced Prohibition, which I guess, depending on your views on Prohibition, it was great. Or not. They operated the U.S. census, which seems like they were at the time just really looking for busy work for the Marshal Service.

[Chuck Bryant]

Just give them a bunch of pencils.

[Josh Clark]

And turn them loose. And then, famously, Chuck, anytime you hear somebody call, like a Wild west law enforcement guy, Marshal, they were a U.S. marshal. That was one of the roles they played they served as the long arm of the law in the Wild west era of American history.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. So they did a lot of things. They found a lot of busy work for them to do over the years these days. Did you mention witness protection?

[Josh Clark]

Not yet.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I mean, basically, these days, they take care of witness. The witness. They run the witness security program, AKA Witness protection. If you see prisoners being transported, like, to court or something, those are marshals doing that. And since 79, they've been in charge of fugitive investigations, which is to say basically, anybody with an outstanding warrant is a fugitive. You don't have to have, like, escaped prisoners. If you're charged with a crime or have been summoned to testify or something like that, and you jump bail, you don't appear in court. If you escape from custody, then you're a fugitive, and the U.S. marshals are gonna try and find you and either put you back in jail or put you in jail for your very first time.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And Tommy Lee Jones doesn't care if you're innocent. His job is to get you and bring you back to jail. No nonsense. Kill my wife, I don't care.

[Chuck Bryant]

So, great, man. One of the great lines in movie history.

[Josh Clark]

So, yeah, you can be a fugitive all sorts of ways. And regardless of how it is, the US Marshals are out there to get you. And for the most part, when they get you, it's because they've tracked you down. Maybe they got a tip. Maybe they just started looking for you and they found that you're actually at your last known address.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And they arrest people quite frequently. I think I saw that they rounded up, like, 75,000 fugitives in 20, 23 or 24.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay.

[Josh Clark]

They arrest a lot of people. But for some reason, during the early to mid-80s, the U.S. marshals Service went on what can only be described as a cutesy streak.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. They said, hey, guys, let's have a little fun with this.

[Josh Clark]

They clearly did. I mean, like, these things. This whole thing was hatched hours into an office Christmas party in 1979. That's the only way to explain. The only explanation for this.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. We'll start with our first qt acronym. In 1981, they launched a program called the Fugitive Investigative Strike Team, AKA fist, because they're gonna use their FIST to.

[Josh Clark]

Get you right up your bum.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. And their goal was to do fugitive investigations not just, like, one person at a time, but, like, let's see if we can get a lot of these people at one time. High concentrations of these fugitives and round them up and bring them in. And how are we gonna do that? We're gonna do that with these really kind of wacky sting operations, which, you know, it's not like they were just out to have fun. There's a lot of merit to doing something this way. They're generally cheaper than just one at a time going after somebody. Resource wise, they're safer because usually when you launch something like this, they're going to be unaware. They're not going to be. They're not going to have a weapon on them. Like they might, you know, behind the door of their own home that they barely crack open. So, you know, it's cheaper, it's generally a little safer. We're going to talk about a few examples of these before we get to flagship. One very successful one was a program called Mr. Zip. And this was just very lo fi. They would have marshals dressed up as US Mail carriers, and they would just knock on your door and say, I got a package from Mr. Homer Simpson. And they would produce their ID and sign their name and they would say, thank you, you're under arrest.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it is you. I think that was actually in the Fugitive too.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, that sounds familiar.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I mean, it's been in a lot of different movies, but like, here.

[Chuck Bryant]

Are your roses, that kind of thing.

[Josh Clark]

Uh huh. Exactly.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So I don't know if this is actually the origin of it or not, but it certainly seems to be because I don't get the impression that they did a lot of this stuff before this era.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. What about Puno Airlines?

[Josh Clark]

That was pretty fun. So Puno means fist in Spanish, right? Exactly.

[Chuck Bryant]

It's also like. It's almost like they wanted people to figure it out.

[Josh Clark]

Yes. That is inherently the problem behind this whole thing is a lot of this. I was about to say steps, but I'm just going to say missteps that happen to work out in their favor. We're just basically like, hey, criminals, do you speak Spanish?

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

Do you think anybody would ever name their airline Fist Airline? Well, they want to give you a free weekend to the Bahamas.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right.

[Josh Clark]

That was the Punos Airlines thing. And I love it. Like, I think it's. It's cool. Like in retrospect, but when you stop and actually think of it from a law enforcement perspective, you just end up pinching the bridge of your nose. But it actually worked.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, it did. They mailed these fake letters saying they had won that trip plus 350 bucks in spending money. Fourteen fugitives fell for it. And they send a limo to your house. It's like a big sweepstakes, basically. And most of them were arrested in the limo. Like, the limo driver is a copy. And they just pull over and say, you're under arrest. One guy did make it to the airport at Miami International, and they did have a fake Puneo Airlines ticket counter. So they saw it through. I'll give them that much.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, for sure. I think it was right next to Air Haiti. No, for real.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, was it? Okay. I never know when you're joking anymore, so.

[Josh Clark]

So I know. I'm sorry. I've really messed with reality. That was 1985. There was another one the year before fist seven. Yeah, right. But they would spell it with roman numerals to make it look super cool. It's so funny because I think this is. Yeah, this is the era of the Rocky sequels.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Roman numerals were everywhere.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, that one was enormous. It was a multi state, multi agency sting operation. There were 113 marshals involved, five ATF agents, 105 police officers, all from across eight different states. And it involved a bunch of different scams that really, all together were part of this one big sweep that was just coordinated by the Marshall Service. There was one pretty straightforward in Buffalo where they wrote letters to fugitives and said, hey, you don't know this, but you won $10,000 in the lottery. You know that lottery you may or may not have ever played? Well, you won $10,000, but we can't give you the money unless you come to the lotto office and show us your id and then you can claim your prize.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. That was one of them. One was a job scam. It was called the Prior Offenders Employment Opportunity Program, where they would say, like, hey, are you a prior offender? Like, I know it's hard for you to get a job. We can get you a job. 15 bucks an hour. Just call our number and tell us who you are and where you are, and we'll set you right up.

[Josh Clark]

That one actually seems like the most effective one because it almost has, like, a scam sense to it. Like, outwardly, like, overtly.

[Chuck Bryant]

It may be the meanest, too.

[Josh Clark]

I think so, too. I thought the same thing.

[Chuck Bryant]

Because you might think it's mean to say you've won tickets to the Bahamas, but it's really mean for someone to be like, I really want to start my life over and get a regular job.

[Josh Clark]

Right? And they're like, yeah, have we got an opportunity for you? Yeah, I agree with you in New York, part of Fist7. Their sting was called the Brooklyn Bridge Delivery Service. Not to be confused with New York's finest taxi service. But it's basically the same thing. Yeah, their motto was, don't mess with the rest, come to the best. And it was essentially the same thing as Mr. Zip as far as the scam goes. But they would just leave like, we missed you, slips on their door saying you have a package that you need to come pick up. And there was a guy involved in this. I can't remember his name, but. Oh, Robert Leshorn. He was one of the chief or deputy chief marshals. And he. He. This was his scam. And so part of it was the. The criminal would call to find out where to pick up their package. And depending on what they were wanted for, he would tailor what was supposedly in the package. So he said, like, if you were wanted for robbery or theft or something, it would be like a brand new stereo or something. So he would tailor it, which made sense. And apparently that worked to a certain extent. But all of these, all of them pale in comparison to the one that they ran in Hartford, Connecticut.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, man, I thought you were going on the flagship. I was like, are you not gonna mention this one?

[Josh Clark]

No, not a chance. As a matter of fact, we should probably just stop after this one, because no scam in the history of law enforcement has ever been greater than this one.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, this is part of FIST 7 in Hartford, Connecticut. This was, hey, let's do a fake TV station giveaway where you can win two tickets to a concert, plus dinner and a limo ride. And, hey, it's 1984. You gonna see Van Halen on their big, huge rock tour. No, no, no.

[Josh Clark]

Boy George and Culture Club.

[Chuck Bryant]

You have won tickets to see culture club in 1984. And it worked, apparently. I don't know why they chose. I don't know if it was geographical, if Boy George was just like, sure, I'll take part in this. He probably didn't know anything about it. Or if they did some research, did a little re, and found out that these dudes love Boy. Love Culture Club. I don't know. I have no idea. But that's who it was.

[Josh Clark]

I saw that part of the package that they won was also a photo shoot. I saw that in a couple of.

[Chuck Bryant]

Places with Culture Club.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay.

[Josh Clark]

And then one of the marshals who held, who headed up the Hartford, Connecticut, Boy George scam said it was just like one of the other ones where, like, when you went to get picked up by this limo, Right. When you got in the limo, they arrested you. He said all these people that they got with this were all dressed up to go to the Culture Club concert.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, God.

[Josh Clark]

Can you imagine what they looked like when they arrived in jail? Like those feathers that you clipped to your ear.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Like glitter war paint. Like, on your cheeks. Like the whole. The whole shebang.

[Chuck Bryant]

I wonder if they said, bad karma chameleon for you, my friend. I love all the extras, too. It wasn't just like, tickets to a concert. It was always, like, and dinner and a photo shoot. Like, I guess they really thought they needed to make it something someone couldn't refuse, I guess.

[Josh Clark]

Right? How can you refuse a photo shoot with Boy George?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, but we laugh fist 7 netted 3300 arrests and is the largest fugitive roundup in American history still to this day.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, 3200 of them came from the Boy George scan.

[Chuck Bryant]

That feels like we have to take a break right there, right?

[Josh Clark]

I think we would be violating some sort of unwritten rule if we didn't right now.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, we're going to come back and talk about one that netted fewer arrest but was definitely fun in Operation Flagship right after this.

[David Eagleman]

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[Unknown]

This is David Eagleman, host of the science podcast Inner Cosmos. For Valentine's Day, we're diving into the question, what is love from the brain's point of view? What does love have to do with how you were raised or the symmetry of someone's face? Or the smell of their underarms. Why does the character of love change throughout our lives? Why is heartbreak like drug withdrawal? And what does any of this have to do with sweaty T shirts or. Or rom coms or monogamous animals and the future of love and AI? Join me for this week's Inner Cosmos. For a deep dive into the neurobiology of love, listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Josh Clark]

Okay, Chuck, so we're back and we're finally talking about the titular scam operation. Flagship.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right.

[Josh Clark]

How do you like that?

[Chuck Bryant]

That's pretty good. I love the word titular.

[Josh Clark]

Thank you. It's arousing. I can't put another word for it, but let's just say arousing.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Yeah, this was thought up. It was a brainchild of a guy named Howard Safir. He was head of enforcement operations at the time. FIS 7 was a big success and he's like, what? At the Christmas party he was a little toasty and said, what has everybody got? He had too much of grandma's Christmas breath. And he said, what's everyone got? I need some fun ideas. And Robert Leshorn, the guy, the Brooklyn Bridge delivery service guy, still basking in the glow of those tailor made packages to the criminals. He apparently came up with this idea and it was football tickets. One of the hottest tickets in football at the time in 1985 was there at RFK Stadium for what was then the Washington Redskins. Now the Washington commander since the name change. But they were the Redskins then. They had won the super bowl, beat The Dolphins in 83, lost to the Raiders in the Super bowl in 84. In 85. Expectations were high. Season tickets. 25 year waiting list for season tickets. Every game is sold out at rfk. And so offering up free tickets to criminals in the D.C. area seemed like a no brainer.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. This particular game versus the Bengals on December 15, 1985, it was to whoever won was going to win a wild card playoff. Bertha. Which has significance. So it was an important game.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, do you. I feel like, I don't know, you should get a little gold star for your football knowledge right there.

[Josh Clark]

Thank you. Also, not to mention too, I mean, even looking back, you're like, wow, these guys were great. But at the time, these two were at the peak of their careers. It was Theisman vs. Esiason. As far as the quarterbacks went.

[Chuck Bryant]

Theisman. Is it really Theisman? Yeah. The story goes, it was Joe Theisman. And in college, he changed it to Theisman to rhyme with Heisman.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, really?

[Chuck Bryant]

That's what they say, huh? I'm not sure he win the Heisman.

[Josh Clark]

I mean, the Heisman.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, you know, I'm actually not sure if he did or not, but his leg got snapped on national tv. I was watching that game. It was horrific.

[Josh Clark]

Wasn't that a Super Bowl?

[Chuck Bryant]

No, it was a. No, no, no, it wasn't a Super Bowl.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, that was horrific. I mean, it was a compound fracture that came out of his thigh. Right?

[Chuck Bryant]

I don't think it was his thigh. I think it was a lower leg. But I just. I remember it was. That was the first horrific injury that I saw on TV that, even though I didn't know it at the time, activated my mirror neurons in a way that was quite striking.

[Josh Clark]

One of the ones that got me, there was a Miami Hurricanes player in early 2000s, and he was like, running down the sideline and somebody dove to. To knock him out of. Well, out of.

[Chuck Bryant]

Bounce, bounce.

[Josh Clark]

And. And they got him right in his knee and his knee turned into like, his whole. His whole leg, but the apex was his knee just turned into a rubber band that went really far to the left.

[Chuck Bryant]

And it's always so disturbing.

[Josh Clark]

It was. They kept show like, this was. This is the zeitgeist at the time. They showed that injury in slow motion 15 times.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, they did.

[Josh Clark]

While the dude was laying on the field. They didn't cut to anything. They just kept showing it over and over, like it was a new volume of Faces of Death or something like that.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, they did that for up until not too, too long ago. And then they stopped. Anytime there's a serious injury like that, they're like, we're not, you know, we don't show the replays of these things.

[Josh Clark]

Anymore, but we probably shouldn't feed the bloodlust.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, exactly.

[Josh Clark]

But, yeah, so anyway, that was. That was. It's forever burned into my brain that. That image. And I don't think he broke anything. He just apparently has, like, the most flexible, resilient leg of anybody's.

[Chuck Bryant]

So he was fine.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I don't know if he was fine. I don't remember that. I just remember, like. I don't think he was like anything broke. It just went.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, was that old rubber knee Richards?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, yeah. But ironically, I think he had the nickname before that because he could play the rubber bands on his knee.

[Chuck Bryant]

This has gotten so off the rails.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah, we're talking about the cops and the.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, that's Right. All right, so we're back to Robert Leshorn. He's the one that came up with this idea to give away these tickets. He said, here's what we'll do. We'll create a fake TV station, like a rock music TV station, like a local mtv, basically, WROC video. And that's gonna head up this whole thing. And this is where they get queued again. The prize letters that they sent out were signed by station manager IM Detnaw. If you spell that backwards, it is I am wanted. Get it?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

And then the guy who they said you had to call in or whatever, the business manager that took the phone call, his name was Marcus Cran. C R A N spelled backwards as narc.

[Josh Clark]

No.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yes. And supposedly. And I did not verify this, but there was one source that said the whole music when you called was I fought the Law and the law won by Bobby Fuller. And I was like, come on. Really?

[Josh Clark]

Right. So even taking that one out, it is 100% confirmed that they signed it I am wanted backwards. I am Detanal.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

The crayon thing, is that pretty much 100%.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, yeah. I mean, it's in the NFL Films documentary. You see the guy typing that name in a computer.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So, like, this is like these are the things that they're doing to just make it like a whole tee hee hee thing.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

Right. To where if you. Again, for no reason. No reason but to amuse themselves. Like, there's no reason. As we'll see. I'm sure part of the reason also is for the media blitz that they knew was coming after they pulled this off.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

But not only is there really no reason for it, you're actually sacrificing potential captures.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Because there's your tempting fate. Some of these people have wives. All you had to do was show your wife that letter and say, let's just want it backwards, you know, like, dummy. Yeah. How many of these people were, like, fell through the dragnet because they saw that detonaw is wanted backwards, and they're like, I think this is not legitimate.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Yeah. They mailed out 3,000 of these letters to fugitives for a total of 5,117 outstanding warrants. Between those 3,000 said you won this thing plus a grand prize drawing for super bowl tickets. That year, the flagship international sports television was the fake station fist. So they did it again. About half the letters came back returned to sender. The others again were told to. To call Marcus Cran to confirm their attendance. And a few of the people that called in were like, wait a minute, this is the cops. But out of the 3,000, it's not very many. Apparently about 160 people RSVP'd, which would still be a pretty good take, I guess.

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

And they said, all right, come on down to the Washington convention center at 9am on game day. We're gonna have a big brunch and a big party and then shuttle you over to the game.

[Josh Clark]

Yes. And I thought something you mentioned is worth emphasizing that being entered in a grand prize drawing for tickets to Super Bowl 20 in New Orleans. Yeah, that actually struck me as a really nice touch because now you've moved the focus a little further out and you're diluting the focus that's being paid to this most immediate thing. So they're thinking about something else as well. It just really. I thought that really was a good touch.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I agree.

[Josh Clark]

So to get prepared for this whole thing, they held three different dress rehearsals. That's dedicated for sure. Because this was a big production and it was smart that they held three different dress rehearsals because again, there's a lot of moving parts. There's a ton of different cops. I think 166 different agents were involved.

[Chuck Bryant]

They were all cops. Everyone there was a cop. Like, the busboy was a cop. The person serving your drink was a cop.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. The janitors were cops. Everybody was cops. Like, when you walked into the Washington Convention center that day, there was no one who wasn't a cop, a wanted fugitive or the plus one of the wanted fugitive who had the haplessness of being brought along to this whole.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, the real victims.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, so. So they rehearsed it many, many times. And one of the things I saw of these 166 law enforcement agents that were part of this, a lot of them were brought in from out of state because they didn't want to risk some of these fugitives from recognizing the marshals who say, like, were in the courtroom with them when they were first brought to trial or had escorted them from jail to prison before they escaped or something like that. So they brought in a lot of ringers from around the country. So there was a lot of cops working from a lot of different offices, all for this one huge scam operation flagship.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, they had to shave a lot of about half of their mustaches. Yeah, if you watch, I mean, you can see this whole thing. There's a. It's. It's only like 12 minutes long. An NFL Films documentary on this, on YouTube or wherever. And you can watch the whole thing play out. It's incredible. But it looks like a room staffed with 166 cops dressed up as different things.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I made it through up to, I think, minute three. Whereas, like, I cannot watch law enforcement try to play it tongue in cheek. It's just. I can't do it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Even the cheerleaders who were not dressed as cheerleaders, they were dressed in tuxedos. Like, everyone there was wearing a tux, which was hysterical. Cause, you know, it was 1985. That's the epitome of class. But they were all cops. And one of the women that was interviewed, she was like, I didn't want to do a cheerleader. She was like, I was in this. I was a U.S. marshal. I was rough and tumble, and I wanted to throw some guys on the ground and put the cuffs on them. But they were like, no, we need you to be a cheerleader. And you're actually the first line of defense. Because what they did was they hugged these guys upon greeting, like, hey, we're cheerleaders. Hug, hug, hug. And they're sort of patting them down and feeling for weapons.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

Which is amazing.

[Josh Clark]

What was that? There was some movie where they do that to great comedic effect.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, really?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I can't remember, but they're, like, hugging people while patting them down, but, like, just clearly patting them down.

[Chuck Bryant]

Man, that sounds familiar.

[Josh Clark]

Drive me crazy.

[Chuck Bryant]

You'll think of it later.

[Josh Clark]

Or somebody will email in. I'll bet at least one person does.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So, yeah, like we said, everybody there who was in this building was a cop. Including the. The San Diego Chicken.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Was armed. Was an armed cop. That just goes to show you how big the San Diego Chicken was in the early to mid-80s. That they were like, bring the San Diego Chicken in for this Washington, Cincinnati football game on the other side of the country. Make sure the San Diego chickens there just to legitimize things.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Because that was. The chicken was for the Padres, not the Chargers. Even at the time, the only explanation I saw in the video was they said something about Santa Claus was going to be there. And I don't know why. This is the part that has no explanation. He said, oh, we were like, we can't have Santa Claus, so let's get the San Diego Chicken. I was like, he said that as if that was the most reasonable statement he could make.

[Josh Clark]

Really? That's hilarious.

[Chuck Bryant]

It's very funny.

[Josh Clark]

That shows a little heart.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure.

[Josh Clark]

I should also say I poked fun at law enforcement trying to be funny. So I looked up to see if there's any cops turned comedians. And there are.

[Chuck Bryant]

Sure. I bet there are. And I bet that's their whole act.

[Josh Clark]

I don't know if it is or not, but I can just tell you to go out and check these guys out. There's Kevin Jordan, Chad Ridgely, who went on to be a groundling. Jim Perry, Officer Perry, Alfie Moore, and I defy you to find the one Brit out of those.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I bet it's not Alfie. All right, so I'm a bobby, right.

[Josh Clark]

Wow, that was a great Alfie Moore impression.

[Chuck Bryant]

He's the kind of guy that talks like that, I think.

[Josh Clark]

Anyway, I just wanted to toss that out there because.

[Chuck Bryant]

Very nice. Thanks, Leshorn. As for his part, he's in the video, he's saying, like, nobody can act like a cop here. We gotta smile. And he says in the NFL film scene, he goes, I know we're not used to smiling at bandits, but today we need to. I was like, bandits? What is happening in 1985?

[Josh Clark]

That's right. Yeah. He said, no one can act like a cop. Kill them with smiles.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right? Yeah. Not with a planted gun.

[Josh Clark]

Right, Right. Oh, my gosh. So, like I said, there's a lot of moving parts in a skiing where you're trying to nab 160 or so criminals all at once. Again, they rehearsed it three different times, but there's still tons of X factors that can crop up that you just can't plan for. And one of the. One of the reasons why they were really kind of on edge is some of these criminals who they'd invited were pretty hardcore. They were like armed robbers, rapists. There was one murderer in particular who was. Who had escaped from prison. He and two other guys had dressed up as security or not security guards, prison guards. And they. From what I was reading, they have no idea where they got these prison guard uniforms, but they managed to escape. The other two guys got caught. The other guy, Charles Watkins, again, who was in on murder, he had become a fugitive and was wanted as a top 10 fugitive in the D.C. area. So he was a big fish that they were trying to reel in. But at the same time, this guy's a murderer on the run. You have no idea what he's going to do. So you really had to kind of keep it tight as much as possible. I say that before we get to the actual day. December 15, 1985.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

We take another break.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, let's do it.

[Unknown]

This is David Eagleman. Host of the science podcast Inner Cosmos. For Valentine's Day, we're diving into the question, what is love from the brain's point of view? What does love have to do with how you were raised? Or the symmetry of someone's face or the smell of their underarms? Why does the character of love change throughout our lives? Why is heartbreak like drug withdrawal? And what does any of this have to do with sweaty T shirts or rom coms or monogamous animals and the future of love and AI? Join me for this week's Inner Cosmos. For a deep dive into the neurobiology of love, listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Chuck Bryant]

Alrighty. We are back. It is not Christmas, but it certainly feels like it in 1985. It's December 15th. The Washington Convention center is decked out. There's a big TV playing highlights of the Redskins season thus far. There's music playing. Everyone's in those tuxes. They got red and gold balloons they're handing out. It's really fun to watch this. This thing play out. You've got these cheerleaders hugging and patting these guys down. One guy is, like, leaning in, trying to kiss one of the women, and she's just, like, pulling her face away and still has her arm around it. In fact, she actually, Stacia Hilton, she was the U.S. marshal, the cheerleader that they interviewed, or fake cheerleader. And later on, she had gotten out and was brought back into the service as an appointment as Director of U.S. marshal Service by President Obama.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, but so for this day, she's a Redskins cheerleader.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, exactly.

[Josh Clark]

So what they would do is the cheerleaders would hug you as you were coming in. Would not accept kisses, it turns out, but they would hug you, pat you down, although you weren't supposed to know that you were being patted down. They would direct you toward a table.

[Chuck Bryant]

She's a good hugger, right?

[Josh Clark]

Exactly. Very thorough. So they would. They report you to this table where you would check in and to claim your prize. To make sure you were you, you had to show positive id. And then when they. When they verified that you were on the list, meaning that you were a wanted fugitive who just showed up to claim your two free tickets to the. The Washington Redskins football game, they would give you a name tag, and the name tag would say confirmed winner. And then if you were a dangerous criminal, they would give you a name tag that said double winner. And I could not find anywhere how they Would explain why somebody was a double winner and not just a confirmed winner.

[Chuck Bryant]

Like, hey, what does that mean?

[Josh Clark]

Right. Exactly, like, why me? I have no idea what they said. Surely they had to say something. But I could not find it. It's lost the history.

[Chuck Bryant]

He said, you're dangerously close to winning the super bowl tickets.

[Josh Clark]

That was great.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's how they do it in the movie, at least. So one person came that was not expected was an attorney from a local TV station that had the local broadcast rights to the games. He heard about this flagship international sports television, AKA Fist, and he was like, wait a minute. They can't do this.

[Josh Clark]

I'm gonna get a mess in my mind.

[Chuck Bryant]

Exactly. He shows up with a cease and desist letter, and the cops got him out of there. They were like, here, why don't you go have a talk with these two cheerleaders? You're like, buddy, you're gonna blow our cover here.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, they shot him in the leg.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, he hobbled out of there.

[Josh Clark]

No, they took him outside. They had to keep it under wraps, so. Okay. You want to talk about unexpected guests?

[Chuck Bryant]

Sure.

[Josh Clark]

Do you want to know the definition of a scumbag?

[Chuck Bryant]

Sure.

[Josh Clark]

A fugitive who gets caught up in the dragnet of a scam carried out by the US Marshal Service in 1985 and shows up without bothering to RSVP. There were 15 of them.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's funny. They just. They just came.

[Josh Clark]

Yep. They just showed up. Didn't even bother to rsvp. It just got under my skin when I saw that.

[Chuck Bryant]

His bad manners, for sure.

[Josh Clark]

So there was a decent amount of people in this convention center. I mean, 150 cops, I think. 160. A little over one cop to one fugitive. And then most of these fugitives had a plus one, if not all of them. So there is hundreds of people in this convention center. And like you said, it was a big party atmosphere, but right under the surface, there's a bunch of people with guns ready to, like, take you to jail. But the problem is you can't just round everybody up all at once, right?

[Chuck Bryant]

No.

[Josh Clark]

So what they did was pretty clever. They would take 15 to 20 winners at a time to one of, like, the separate conference rooms in this convention center, which really, it made me nostalgic, Chuck, because we played a show or two in the. In the conference room of a convention center, you know? Yeah, Australia loves. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they would sit them down and they would present them with some, I guess, spiel to start as they shut the doors and everybody was settling into their chairs.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, this is Louis McKinney. He's on a stage. And then again, this is just like, hey, this is the party room where you're gonna get your actual tickets. And he's the emcee. He's the master of ceremonies. He's wearing a top hat, a literal black top hat. And he doesn't just go up there and say, you're all under arrest. He settles everyone down. He said he wanted everyone to kind of get settled in and calm. So he's just doing a bit. He's doing stage work about how excited everyone is and getting everyone, like, pumped up. And then. And you can literally watch this happen. He says, on behalf of Flagship International, we have a big surprise for you this morning. Everybody's under arrest. And you see behind the doors, you see all these, like, SWAT Cops is their version of the swat, their SOG Special Operations Group. That doesn't spell anything clever. They're like. Have literal shotguns, and they're just like. They're right behind the door. Yeah, exactly. Hut, hut, hut. That's right. They rappel in through the windows, you know, Break through the windows. No, they literally just, like, kick in the door and go running in with shotguns. And you see these guys that, like, about a third of them, like, immediately sort of put their hands on their heads as they were being directed to and get on the ground. And about a third of them are like, what's happening here?

[Josh Clark]

Is this part of the process?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. They didn't know what was going on, but, you know, soon enough, they had them, you know, face down on the floor.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Arresting violently.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Fifteen people at a time. Then escorting them out a different door. And just, you know, keep doing that over and over until they got everybody.

[Josh Clark]

I have to say something really quick. While I was researching this, I had a great little brush with coincidence that I was reading. I got to that part where McKinney says, Everybody's under arrest, and I just happened to be listening to the Beach Boys Smile album at the time.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, yeah.

[Josh Clark]

It's not something I listen to a lot. I just happened to decide to listen to that while I was researching this. And within seconds of reading that part, it reaches the part in the Beach Boys album where they say, you're under arrest.

[Chuck Bryant]

Wow.

[Josh Clark]

And that it's worth. I mean, that's something, right? I mean, that's not your everyday coincidence.

[Chuck Bryant]

No, I love stuff like that.

[Josh Clark]

I do, too. So, anyway, back to the story. Dave, like I said, helped us with this, and he wondered something that I did as well. What happened to all the. All the guests who are like. The crowd of plus ones are getting left behind in larger and larger droves as this party room is like, you know, set and reset and people get taken out of the back door to jail.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And no one knows. I mean, no. At least no one ever covered what happened. They just.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I mean, I imagine it was. I've got some bad news and some more bad news.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

Like, there is no good news. It's like your friend has been arrested and you're also not going to this football game, and you also have to find your way home somehow.

[Josh Clark]

Exactly.

[Chuck Bryant]

Surely they gave him a ride home at least.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, I don't know about that. I don't know about that.

[Chuck Bryant]

I mean, I was laughing about they're their victims, but they really are. I mean, what a bummer for sure.

[Josh Clark]

Especially those wives that found out that their husbands didn't let them read the letter from I am Detnaw and didn't.

[Chuck Bryant]

Want to go to the game to begin with.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, my God. There are definitely plus ones like that.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, man. So when this whole thing was pulled off, the reason why the NFL Films little mini documentary is so thorough is the media was there. And it would make sense the media was there because this is supposed to be some big deal celebration. So you see people who are like fugitives about to be arrested coming into the convention center, like, party, like into the cameras.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

That are really, like, there to film their arrest, but they think they're there to film this big celebration because they won these tickets. The LA Times was there, CBS News was there. Washington Post was there. They were like, journalists were allowed to go basically everywhere. They're allowed to interview all of the. All of the higher ups conducting this thing. I guess they were just required to basically play it straight and pretend like they didn't know what was going on. But as a result of this direct involvement of the media, there was a huge national, like, celebration for how great the U.S. marshal Service was and how well they pulled off this amazing sting with not a single shot fired. And aside from violently throwing some of these people to the floor, totally Nonviolent roundup of 100 plus perps.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I mean, that's the. That's why you do it like this. For the. For the safety and for the money, savings or the efficiency, rather, I guess, financially. But the PR aspect of this should not be overlooked. Like, they wanted them to film this. They wanted them to know all the cutesy stuff. So one day NFL Films would release a mini doc and future podcasters would talk about it and sort of make fun of it, but also bring them some attention. So the PR part of it was a very purposeful big deal. The guy. I've seen lots of different numbers bandied about by how many people they actually got. I think 144 arrests is what Dave saw. But in the documentary, the guy whose brainchild it was said it was 101.

[Josh Clark]

Really?

[Chuck Bryant]

But if you do the math on 101 arrest, it cost them $22,100 to pull this off. That breaks down to just $218 if they got 101 arrests. And the average cost of just a per fugitive cost of nabbing a single fugitive was about almost 1300 bucks. So that's a, you know, that's a big, efficient haul, if you really look at it that way.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, for sure. I mean that it's super efficient. And again, not a single shot fired. And don't forget, they nabbed Charles Watkins, the big fish. They were trying to reel in the murderer who had escaped from prison dressed as a prison guard, which really, if you're going to escape from prison, that's a real black eye to that particular prison, dressing up as one of their own guards and escaping. So it was a big deal that they caught this guy. And Stanley Morris, who was the head of the Marshals service at the time, was quoted in the LA Times saying, it's a safe, clean and creative way to get these people off the streets. There's no safer way to make an arrest than away from the home environment.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I mean, he's probably right. As far as Charles Watkins goes in and Dave got some of this. By the way, you wanted to shout out the podcast criminal.

[Josh Clark]

Huge shout out.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Because they covered this and I think Dave listened to that and got a couple of these things in the end here from there.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it was a December 2024 episode.

[Chuck Bryant]

Pretty recently.

[Josh Clark]

Is that the listener wrote in after hearing the criminal episode.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, maybe.

[Josh Clark]

He said, I've got a great idea for your episode.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So go check that out. For criminals point of view, I'm sure it's pretty great. Cause it's a great podcast. But apparently there was a producer from CBS News named Alan Goldberg who went back at the footage and was like, I think he just thought some of this stuff was a little fishier than it was made out to be as some big, huge success. And he saw footage on there of Charles Watkins, a 50 year old man saying, like, you got the wrong guy. You got the wrong guy. And it turns out they got the wrong guy. They got Charles Watkins Sr. Charles Watkins, the murderer that was the felon, or rather fugitive. And felon was his son. He was 20 years old. They got the wrong person. Yeah, apparently the big fish was the wrong fish.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. According to Criminal, like, he. He finally was able to convince them by showing, like, some ID and some other, like, identification, saying, like, I'm not the guy you're looking for. You're looking for my son. And huge, again, hat tip to criminal. They did some serious digging. Like, I was listening to it. And Alan Goldberg, who is a huge source for this, they're the ones that he talked to. This is not, like, all over the place. Like, they found this guy and managed to just completely turn all of the coverage of Operation Flagship. Still today, when you read contemporary stuff about Operation Flagship, it is unquestioningly written about as just this perfect success. Yeah, they found this guy who was like, it's not actually how it went at all. There's actually, in addition to getting the wrong Charles Watkins, the other big fish they were trying to get. Lloyd Golden. He was a top ted wanted fugitive for armed robbery. And this Allen Goldberg, you know, God bless him for his journalist streak, he dug into Lloyd golden and found that he was wanted for selling some drugs, not armed robbery. He wasn't on any kind of top 10 list. So that's bad enough, but when you really start digging into it, you're like, well, this is not only a waste of money. It turns out even though it was super efficient, it's actually legal, but pretty unethical considering who they actually did nab in this dragnet.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I mean, it was mainly misdemeanor offenders, a lot of parole violations. There were six traffic offenses in there.

[Josh Clark]

And now, remember, a lot of these people were thrown to the ground, regardless of their. Of what they were wanted for. They were a fugitive, and they were thrown to the ground violently, in some cases for traffic offenses.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, exactly. There was one guy, and you can see him in the NFL film stock as they're bringing him out. He was like, man, he's like, you know where I live, you could have come to my house. Basically, like, why did you drag me down here and make me go through all this? Just come knock on my door and arrest me.

[Josh Clark]

He's like, I want to speak to Mr. Detinaw. Now.

[Chuck Bryant]

This turned out to be sort of the beginning of the end, though it is, again, still praised as a success. If you look at any U.S. marshal stuff. But they. I think, like, Fist 9 was just regular police work. Over a period of eight weeks, they got a bunch of more fugitives, which is great.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Pretty impressive. 3,500 fugitives in eight weeks over four states and parts of Mexico. That's with no scams whatsoever.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, no scams. But they don't do this stuff anymore. I guess this was sort of the golden age of that kind of thing. They're still out getting fugitives. I think. Last year, they captured more than 3,000 violent fugitives in Operation North Star. But that did not involve Culture Club tickets or sweepstakes prizes or anything like that.

[Josh Clark]

I think the answer is that starting in 1986, they went to nothing but beer and wine at their Christmas parties.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right. Yeah. Not the. The rum punch.

[Josh Clark]

Right, right. So one of the things about Operation Flagship is that it is so nuts that it actually happened. And when you just step back and look at it from the. You know, from the total outside and how great it was and everything, it's extremely entertaining. Cops smart, Criminals stupid. Can you believe they fell for this? There's football involved. Like, it has everything you could possibly want. Right. So it did actually inspire some stuff. Like we said, that whole Mr. Zip thing. Inspired, like the. I've got some rose delivery for you, fugitive. Yeah. This specific Operation Flagship inspired, apparently the opening scene in Sea of Love with Al Pacino, where Samuel Jackson is among the fugitives who were tricked into a Meet the Yankees scam.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, yeah. That was copped directly from this.

[Josh Clark]

I'm sure there was. So have you seen the movie Trap? M. Night Shyamalan's vehicle for his daughter's musical career?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Have you seen it?

[Josh Clark]

No.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay, I just want to talk for one quick minute about this, because I heard this movie on two different movie podcasts I listened to. Scott hasn't seen. He covered this with Mike Castle, husband to Lauren Lapkis, as the guest. And then it was also on the Flophouse, one of my favorite shows that I've listened to forever on the Max Fun Network, where they cover bad movies. Elliot, Dan, and Stu.

[Josh Clark]

So Trapper's bad, then?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, yeah. It's wonderfully bad, though. Like, I heard both of these before I saw it, and I was like, I've got to watch this movie now because it's so funny. Bad.

[Josh Clark]

Wow.

[Chuck Bryant]

And it is. I highly recommend the M. Night Shyamalan Josh Hartnett movie Trap because it is so ridiculous and awful, and the choices that are made as a movie are just bonkers and Hysterical.

[Josh Clark]

Okay. So I know I am a sentient adult human being. And I know that a lot of M. Night Shyamalan's. Some of his films are bad.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Just bad. Terrible. I hated Signs. Hated Signs. Although that was largely because of Mel Gibson's acting or over.

[Chuck Bryant]

Most of them are pretty bad to me.

[Josh Clark]

Huh.

[Chuck Bryant]

He's got a handful of pretty good ones, but.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, well, that's what I was gonna say. I will still watch every movie that that man puts out because they're so imaginative, so creative. I also love the cinematography in his films. It's always so dark and moody.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, they look pretty good.

[Josh Clark]

The Sixth Sense is one of the greatest films of all time.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And even, like, you can give up on him and then come back years later and watch the stuff that you missed and you're like, man, I love this stuff. Such a great thing to watch on like Saturday Afternoon or something like that.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I like the Unbreakable movie and the Split, whatever. There was like a trilogy and then that World the Last and Split. Yeah, I thought all those were pretty good. But yeah, a lot of his movies are really bad, but still well made enough to be worthwhile. Even if it's just sort of like a cringe fun watch. And Trapp is one of them. And you know, whenever he pops up in his own movies, it's always so bad and dumb and obvious. And he does so in the funniest, worst way in Trap.

[Josh Clark]

Okay, good. I gotta see this.

[Chuck Bryant]

It's really a fun bad movie watch. I highly recommend it.

[Josh Clark]

Have you seen a knock at the cabin door?

[Chuck Bryant]

I have not seen that one.

[Josh Clark]

That's good.

[Chuck Bryant]

I don't see them all.

[Josh Clark]

Have you ever seen Servant, the show he made?

[Chuck Bryant]

Uh, Good, Bad?

[Josh Clark]

No, it's really good. It's a really good show. Like, he does a great job.

[Chuck Bryant]

He's a confounding filmmaker.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

You know, just.

[Josh Clark]

Just watch Servant. I think you'll like it. I haven't seen all of the seasons. I might have seen the first three and then I stopped. But I can tell you the first three are definitely worth watching. I think you'll get sucked in pretty quick.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. We cannot finish, though. Even though I did mention Homer Simpson earlier, one of the great, great Simpsons episodes. They had a sting operation where they were giving away a boat. Right?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Yes. I'm sorry. I've watched it the other yesterday, I guess I was watching it and I noticed something that I'd never noticed before.

[Chuck Bryant]

What was it?

[Josh Clark]

At the head of the scene, at the beginning, as they're start as. As they're pulling up to the police station, Homer's falling for a scam like Operation Flagship, but instead of Redskins tickets, it's a free motorboat.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So he's all. He's all ready for this. He's wearing a captain's hat, driving the family up to the police station to claim his free motorboat. And at the beginning of the scene, as they're pulling up, Lou, one of the cops has the door kind of like, slightly ajar and is peeking out. Right. When he sees Homer pull up, he, like, closes the door real quick. Yeah. Oh, my God. You have to see it. Like, I can't do it justice. It's just this extra quick little thing that did not need to be added at all, but makes that whole scene so just perfect.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, just the heyday of that show.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Season nine. And the whole episode, by the way, too. Lisa the Skeptic is like, one of the more heartfelt episodes around, too. So good.

[Chuck Bryant]

Ah, Lou, why are the pretty ones always insane favorites? Also, a little nugget on the end if you're ever in Fort Smith, Arkansas. And why else would you be there? But going to the US Marshall Museum, you can see Louis McKinney's MC black top hat on display.

[Josh Clark]

Very nice. That was a nice little nugget.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Thanks, Dave, for that nug.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Thank you, Dave. That was great. We appreciate the assist on this one and on Harry Belafonte. It's Dave week, everybody.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right.

[Josh Clark]

And since I said it's Dave week again, that unlocked listener mail.

[Chuck Bryant]

Hey, guys. Love the show. I just started listening around 2018. I'm now realizing that was seven years ago. Go. My commute to work is about 15 minutes in each direction, so your release schedule is perfect to listen to a fresh Sysk episode all the time. I was listening to Automats and hearing Chuck weirded out about pie for breakfast is so funny to me because I'm a chef, and I will never understand why pie sweetened, thickened fruit in a pastry is dessert, but a Danish or jelly donut sweetened, thickened fruit in a pastry are breakfast. And by the way, this totally vindicates you because when you were like, pie for breakfast? And I was like, that sounds so crazy. I was. And you said, most breakfast foods are dessert. And I was like, what are you talking about? You're completely right. I wasn't thinking about all this stuff.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, I love it when you say stuff like that.

[Chuck Bryant]

I was thinking about eggs and bacon, but I forgot about the sweet side of breakfast and all that stuff is dessert. Same goes for cake and pancakes. Flour, sugar, eggs, baking powder with a sweet combo. French toast is plain white bread dipped in a sweet cinnamon custard, griddled, and then you drizzle sugar syrup on top of it.

[Josh Clark]

I love that stuff.

[Chuck Bryant]

So, guys, Josh is right. Lots of breakfast foods are pretty much dessert. And I say if it makes you happy, there's no reason to keep away from dessert foods at breakfast. Your stomach doesn't know what time of day it is. Thanks for all the amazing information. I've learned so much from you guys and always have a great time listening. That is from Aaron Brittingham. And Aaron, thanks for proving me wrong. I forgot about all this sweet breakfast stuff.

[Josh Clark]

Thanks for proving me right.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, and not to even mention cereal. I mean, what is Captain Crunch besides a bowl of dessert?

[Josh Clark]

That's right. I like to have a balanced breakfast. I like the dessert part with a bunch of pancakes or French toast and syrup. Then I also like the eggs and the bacon part too.

[Chuck Bryant]

Breakfast is my favorite meal that I never eat, but when I do, by God, I love it.

[Josh Clark]

Well, yeah, I'm the same way. I don't typically eat breakfast. So if I'm going to eat breakfast, breakfast, like it's going to be something like that.

[Chuck Bryant]

Agreed.

[Josh Clark]

I gave up cereal and I'm the better off for it. I just have to admit, yeah, I.

[Chuck Bryant]

Don'T eat that stuff anymore. But if I'm on vacation and there's a good breakfast place, I'm going to party down and then I'll skip lunch.

[Josh Clark]

That's right. Nice work, Charles. Well, if you want to be like Aaron and vindicate me, bring it on. You can send us an email to stuffpodcastheartradio.com.

[Chuck Bryant]

Stuff youf Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite show.