Editorial Cartoons: Art as Satire

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Editorial Cartoons: Art as Satire"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Stuff You Should Know
• Host/Authors: Chuck Bryant and Josh Clark
• Episode: Editorial Cartoons: Art as Satire
• Release Date: April 8, 2025

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1. Introduction to Editorial Cartoons

The episode opens with Chuck Bryant introducing the topic of editorial cartoons, also known simply as cartoons, which traditionally appear in the editorial or opinion sections of newspapers. Chuck highlights the perceived decline of this profession, noting the drastic reduction from over 2,000 editorial cartoonists a century ago to fewer than 20 today (00:55).

2. The Decline of Newspaper Cartoonists

Josh Clark and Chuck Bryant discuss the factors contributing to the decline of editorial cartoonists in major newspapers. They attribute this trend primarily to the struggling newspaper industry, which can no longer afford to employ full-time cartoonists. However, they reassure listeners that the art form persists online and through syndication companies that distribute cartoons to interested newspapers (01:21, 01:49).

3. The Role of Satire in Cartoons

Satire is identified as a core component of editorial cartoons. Chuck explains that satire in cartoons often aims to influence public opinion rather than merely entertain. Josh adds that satire typically presents a surface-level point to highlight a more sensible counterpoint underneath (03:52, 04:31).

Chuck Bryant (04:31): “If I thought about that and saw it written down, I could probably figure it out exactly.”

4. Historical Origins of Political Cartoons

The hosts delve into the origins of political cartoons, tracing them back to the 16th century when Martin Luther utilized woodcut cartoons to critique the Catholic Church. They discuss how these early cartoons served as political statements, especially in an era when mass literacy was low, making visual propaganda highly effective (08:25).

5. Influential Political Cartoonists

Thomas Nast is spotlighted as one of the most influential political cartoonists of the 19th century. Nast is credited with popularizing symbols such as the elephant for the Republican Party and the donkey for the Democratic Party. Additionally, he played a pivotal role in bringing down corrupt political figures like William "Boss" Tweed through his incisive illustrations (22:30, 25:10).

Josh Clark (25:22): “They also popularized our current conception of Santa Claus.”

James Gilray is acknowledged as the "father of political cartoons," known for his satirical depictions of prominent figures like King George III. His work "Plum Pudding in Danger" exemplifies the early modern political cartoon, blending artistic excellence with sharp political commentary (14:10).

6. Political Cartoons and Social Issues

Chuck and Josh explore how political cartoons have addressed various social issues beyond politics. For instance, Thomas Nast's cartoons not only tackled political corruption but also touched upon immigration, oscillating between critiques of anti-immigrant sentiments and stereotypes of immigrant groups like the Irish (27:28, 28:24).

Another example discussed is the 1903 cartoon "Unrestricted Dumping Ground" from Judge magazine, which harshly depicted immigrants as rodents being "dumped" into American society, reflecting the prevalent nativist attitudes of the time (28:24).

7. Impact of Political Cartoons

Political cartoons have had significant impacts on public opinion and political outcomes. Chuck references Thomas Nast’s cartoons as crucial in the downfall of Boss Tweed, stating that Nast drew over 140 cartoons specifically targeting Tweed's corruption, contributing to his eventual imprisonment and demise (25:29, 26:19).

Additionally, Chuck mentions Herb Block (Herblock), whose relentless cartoons during the Watergate scandal were instrumental in shaping public perception and advancing the investigation, earning him three Pulitzer Prizes (42:20, 42:45).

Josh Clark (42:45): “Political cartoonists are expected to draw a cartoon a day.”

8. Modern Political Cartoons and Memes

Transitioning to the contemporary scene, the hosts discuss how political cartoons have evolved in the digital age. They draw parallels between traditional editorial cartoons and modern internet memes, suggesting that memes like "This is Fine" mimic the concise, impactful messaging of classic political cartoons (53:03).

9. The Current State and Challenges of Editorial Cartooning

Despite their enduring presence online, editorial cartoonists face significant challenges. Chuck points out that declining newspaper revenues have made editors less willing to take risks, leading to fewer opportunities and increased vulnerability for cartoonists who push boundaries. They cite the example of Ann Telnaes, who quit the Washington Post after facing backlash for her cartoons, underscoring the shrinking space for free expression in mainstream media (52:09, 52:59).

Chuck Bryant (52:29): “Herblock, or Herb Block, was there from ‘46 to 2001. He coined the term McCarthyism.”

10. Charlie Hebdo and Its Legacy

Chuck and Josh recount the tragic events surrounding the French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo. They describe the 2015 terrorist attack that killed 12 people in response to the magazine’s provocative cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad. The hosts reflect on the global debate over freedom of expression versus religious sensitivity that ensued, highlighting the lasting impact of Charlie Hebdo on the perception of political satire (46:39).

Chuck Bryant (48:09): “I'm not saying I agree one way or the other. I just think a lot of times opinions change on stuff like that over time for certain people.”

11. Listener Mail

The episode concludes with a heartfelt listener email from Reverend Eric, who shares a touching story about his parents' dedication to playing Scrabble and meticulously recording their game statistics. This segment adds a personal and emotional layer to the episode, emphasizing the diverse range of topics covered by the podcast (54:08, 55:18).

Reverend Eric’s Email (54:08): “When my dad died, I inherited their Scrabble board and their record was in it. And this is one of my most precious possessions.”

Conclusion

In this comprehensive episode, Chuck Bryant and Josh Clark explore the rich history and enduring significance of editorial cartoons as a form of satire. From their origins in the 16th century to their modern-day manifestations as internet memes, the hosts illustrate how political cartoons have influenced public opinion, challenged authority, and reflected societal issues. Despite facing decline in traditional newspapers, the art form remains vibrant online, adapting to new mediums while continuing to wield its unique power to comment on and critique the world.

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Notable Quotes:

• Chuck Bryant (04:31): "If I thought about that and saw it written down, I could probably figure it out exactly."

• Josh Clark (25:22): “They also popularized our current conception of Santa Claus.”

• Josh Clark (42:45): “Political cartoonists are expected to draw a cartoon a day.”

• Chuck Bryant (52:29): “Herblock, or Herb Block, was there from ‘46 to 2001. He coined the term McCarthyism.”

• Reverend Eric’s Email (54:08): “When my dad died, I inherited their Scrabble board and their record was in it. And this is one of my most precious possessions.”

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Timestamp Reference Key:

• 00:55: Decline of editorial cartoonists
• 01:21: Persistence through online platforms
• 03:52: Satire in cartoons
• 04:31: Nature of satire
• 08:25: Martin Luther’s early cartoons
• 14:10: James Gilray’s influence
• 22:30: Thomas Nast’s contributions
• 25:10: Santa Claus and Uncle Sam
• 27:28: Nast on immigration
• 28:24: Immigration cartoons
• 42:20: Herb Block’s legacy
• 46:39: Charlie Hebdo attack
• 48:09: Changing opinions on Charlie Hebdo
• 52:09: Ann Telnaes’ challenges
• 53:03: Political memes
• 54:08: Listener mail
• 55:18: Value of personal stories

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Note: This summary captures the essence and key discussions of the podcast episode, providing an insightful overview for those who haven't listened to it.

Transcript

[Jeremy Scott]

Something unexpected happened after Jeremy Scott confessed to killing Michelle Schofield in Bone Valley season one.

[Gilbert King]

Every time I hear about my dad is, oh, he's a killer. He's just straight evil.

[Jeremy Scott]

I was becoming the bridge between Jeremy Scott and the son he'd never known.

[Gilbert King]

At the end of the day, I'm literally a son of a killer.

[Jeremy Scott]

Listen to new episodes of bone Valley Season 2, starting April 9 on the iHeartRadio app. App, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Chuck Bryant]

Welcome to Stuff youf Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

[Josh Clark]

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too. And this is stuff you should know. And that's it. It's the Andom edition. Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

This is about editorial cartoons, AKA cartoons. They are one and the same. They're, you know, usually appear in the traditionally in the editorial section or the opinion section of newspapers. So that's why you can call them either. And this is a profession that appears to be dying out. If you look at the number of editorial cartoonists that are like full time staff at major newspapers.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

Cause there used to be more than 2,000 about 100 years ago. Now there's less than 20. And Dave helped us with this and found that stat. And I think we were both initially like, oh my God, they're all going away. Not necessarily true. Those are full time staffers on newspapers. Newspapers are in trouble. So that's a big reason why we'll get to that. But there are still plenty of editorial cartoonists and political cartoonists mainly working online, right?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And for syndication companies, like you can work for a syndicate and they'll distribute it to newspapers that want to run your political cartoon. Just like with comics.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. So I won't say like we're at peak, the golden age of it, but it's still alive and well in just sort of a different form.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I've seen the golden age referred to as in the 19th century. And I'm like, these people didn't live through the 80s. That was the golden age, baby.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, man. I saw if I had a dime for every like cartoonish drawing of Tip O'Neill or Ronald Reagan I saw growing up as a kid, I didn't even like, who are these people?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, no, that's a really great point. They editorial cartoons are like of the moment sometimes, like of the day where they like, they'll still make sense later that week, but they're not hidden because something already changed or moved on and they Don't. As such, it's very rare that an editorial cartoon can still, like, land the way it originally did. That means that whatever it was talking about was so historic that. That people, decades on, know what, like the ins and outs of it that the political cartoon is referring to. But for the most part, it's like daily minutiae of ongoing politics and government. And if you just go back like 10 or 15 years, it's like, I forgot John Boehner even existed until I went back and looked at some of the old political cartoons. And it's so important at the time. But, you know, all these years on, it does not matter what that political cartoon was saying at the time. It was. And that's a huge point about those things.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's why Michael Dukakis drove a tank.

[Josh Clark]

I remember that.

[Chuck Bryant]

Who's Michael Dukakis?

[Josh Clark]

Yep, I remember. And Kitty.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's funny stuff. Oh, yeah, his wife Kitty. That's right. And Dan Quayle spells potato wrong. Like, it's so funny to kind of think about the greatest political hits of our childhood.

[Josh Clark]

Yep. Yeah, it's really far away, Chuck.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, but like you said, it's sort of like greatest hits. You can look back at some Nixon, Watergate, political cartoons and totally get it, and they land, but they're not always funny. And that's the whole point of this. Or not the whole point, but it's satire. Satire can be super, super funny. Like if you read the Onion or something like that, or a well made satirical film or television show. But it's a different kind of humor a lot of times. Satire isn't necessarily laugh out loud stuff because the point of satire usually is to influence what somebody thinks about something through. In this case, an image.

[Josh Clark]

Right. One of the explanations I saw for satire is that it uses like a surface level presentation of a point to point out that the counterpoint is actually the more sensible thing.

[Chuck Bryant]

If I thought about that and saw it written down, I could probably figure.

[Josh Clark]

Out exactly, okay, I've got one for you. Alexander Pope said, praise undeserved is satire in disguise. No. Still nothing. Okay. Go watch the movie Soul Plane or Brian's Song and you will know what I'm talking about with satire.

[Chuck Bryant]

Brian's Song, you know, they used to use that in crying studies. That's the one thing I remember about Brian's Song was when I was a kid, I saw a news report where they're like, this new movie is so sad. And it showed people, like, in a room watching Brian's Song with these little Tear gutters strapped to their face and just like bawling at that movie.

[Josh Clark]

And I'm sure the political cartoon of the day about that had people crying and somebody said, are they watching Brian's Song? And the guy says, no, they just found out Ronald Reagan was re elected governor.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, we also, you and I are, as we said on record many times before, grew up as adherence to Mad magazine. And they didn't. I mean they did political cartoons essentially. It just wasn't for a newspaper. But there was plenty of that stuff in there.

[Josh Clark]

Nice point. One of the other things about political cartoons is they present an opinion. They do it in a way that's humorous, that's recognizable, you don't have to know how to read, which was for a long time the, the point of political cartoons. And it's presented in a way so that it takes everything you know, it makes assumptions about what you know. But usually they're pretty good at that. And it, it takes everything you know and, and can turn it on its head, can point out the folly, the ridiculousness of usually governments, politicians, policies, that kind of stuff. But sometimes it's aimed unfairly at groups of people. The other point about it is that the actual types of art it uses have been shown to neurologically hit us different than say a photograph.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. When you draw a caricature of someone or exaggerate.

[Josh Clark]

That was beautiful.

[Chuck Bryant]

The three year old. If you exaggerate something.

[Josh Clark]

Wait, hold on. You can't do it as well as you.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. That's pretty good. Yeah. It has more of a, like neurologically more of an impact than an actual photograph of somebody doing something even ridiculous.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. It's called a super normal stimulus or a super stimuli, which is, it just hits your brain that much harder. And so the caricature, like it's just something people just figured out over time, building little by little to create the optimal political cartoon, which apparently popped up around the 1950s.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, or if you go to a theme park or the streets of Paris or something and you see a caricature artist parked next to the realistic, like I'll do a realistic pencil sketch of you. You got like one person over there, you got 10 people in line trying to get a big old fathead version of themselves.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Cause they want to be super stimulated.

[Chuck Bryant]

Can I amend one thing that you said? You said that they use humor almost always. That's the case. But some of my favorite political cartoons over the years, sometimes they'll have just the really brutally gut punchy sad ones that Are very, very effective, you know, hilarious.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, no, they definitely. It doesn't always have to be humor. You're right, for sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

But what it always has to do is prove some kind of a point. There's never a political cartoon that's like, oh, this is just funny or something, because that's a comic strip or that's Family Circus.

[Josh Clark]

Exactly. So I say we go back, way back, to potentially the origin of political cartoons, which were religious in nature. Because back in the 16th century, when Martin Luther was trying to reform the Catholic Church and ended up just kind of spinning off his own jam, religion was politics. They were interchangeable. It was one of the same. So when he started printing woodcut cartoons that were really unflattering depictions of the pope and the bishops and the cardinals who aided the pope, he was making a political statement. And so some people say that. That some of these prints from, like, way back in 1545, there's one called the Birth and Origin of the Pope, that this was essentially the first political cartoon ever printed, because that's another thing, too. You have to have a mass medium to spread this idea. And so this was shortly after the printing press was invented. And almost off the bat, Martin Luther was among the people who were using it to make political statements. Using cartoons.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. And if you're at home saying, like, I bet he did that because so many people couldn't read yet, you're exactly right. The printing press was brand new, and that changed literacy for the world, basically. But right after it was invented, a lot of people still couldn't read. And so he knew that if he wanted to hit his target audience in the right way, the Birth and Origin of the Pope was a good way to do it. We'll describe a few of these that are sort of easy to picture. We're not gonna get in the weeds, I think, kind of describing in detail pictures on a audio show. But this one is very simple. It was the Pope and the cardinals being pooped out by a she devil.

[Josh Clark]

And then. Yeah. And then nursed by other she devils. Medusa's breastfeeding. Looks like a bishop in one part of this. It's really something. And that was. I think I said 1545, and then nothing happened for 200 years. And then a guy came along named William Hogarth. And those of you who really, really, really pay attention to the stuff we say might find that that name rings a bell. And that would be because we talked about William Hogarth in our Gin episode.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. There was a political cartoon. He drew about drunks basically living at the corner of Beer street and Gin Lane. And that was Hogarth, who's considered the grandfather of political cartoons. He was a serious painter, but then he got into making fun of rich folks in London.

[Josh Clark]

Yes, for sure. And it was a social commentary. So it was satire, it was exaggerated. That's another kind of key part of political cartoons. And it made a point about, in this case, society rather than politics. And so as, as a result, William Hogarth is considered the grandfather of political cartoons. He was not making political cartoons, but he definitely set out some of the points on the table that would later be picked up actually fairly quickly by printers, publishers and cartoonists. Among whom was Benjamin Franklin, who started, he ran what's considered the first American political cartoon back in 1754.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, so that was only, you know, a couple of decades after Hogarth, man. Hogarth, Hogarth, his earliest work. So it was sort of in the same era. And as we all know, or maybe some people don't know this, Benjamin Franklin ran a newspaper, the Philadelphia Gazette. And it was a cartoon. It was a cut up rattlesnake with each section of the snake being a colony like New York had the abbreviation of the colony and it said Join or die. And it was to try and rally people to unify against France in the lead up to the French and Indian War. And he is credited as, even though he probably didn't draw this thing, he ran it. He is credited for making the rattlesnake, a popular symbol for the colonies of the United. Well, not United States yet. The colonies, yeah, that's all I need to say.

[Josh Clark]

And that's a pretty famous image, that cut up snake as far as the US is concerned. But that was almost like a little sidestep for political cartoons because again, nothing happened for a good 50 years. And then along came James Gilray. He is considered the father of political cartoons. He was drawing satirical images to lampoon and point out the folly of people in charge. In this case, King George III was his favorite target because he was British. He was also anti colonial too. And so there was one very famous one that he did that depicts the prime minister at the time, William Pitt, with Napoleon carving up the world to eat. Yeah, it's in the form of a plum pudding, also known as plum poutine. And Pitt and Napoleon are sitting at a table carving it up, just greedily eating the rest of the world. And apparently Napoleon was well aware of James Gillray because he had a pretty great quote, didn't he.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I used to do a good Napoleon. I'm not going to try, though.

[Josh Clark]

Really.

[Chuck Bryant]

He said that Gilray did more than all the armies of Europe to bring me down. And if you look at this cartoon, it really sort of looks like what we know as a modern political editorial cartoon. It's really, really cool looking. It looks great, the art is great, but it just. It sort of has that look. It seems like one of the. Or probably the first person who was making these cartoons that look like what we have today.

[Josh Clark]

Right. That's why Gilbert's considered the father of the whole thing.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right.

[Josh Clark]

And he came around, I think that the Plum Pudding in Danger was the name of the one we were just talking about. That was in 1805. And at the same time, magazines started being established and founded around this time that were dedicated to satire. So the. The form. The art form of political cartoons and political satirical magazines came together at the very beginning of the 19th century, not just in Britain, but France. Turns out France is basically the spear's point of satire. Did not know that, but it's the truth, everybody.

[Chuck Bryant]

I remember when the Charlie Hebdo stuff came out, and we're gonna talk about that in the Act 3 here. But that's when I sort of learned how astute and on point their satire had been for a long, long time. I didn't know that previously.

[Josh Clark]

Right, yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Doesn't seem like a very French thing, but I don't know, maybe it is.

[Josh Clark]

I didn't either. But there was a guy from the early 19th century, I think, named Honore Daumier. And Daumier actually got in trouble. I think he actually went to prison for his political cartoons. Right?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. In the 1830s, the French government sort of relaxed their laws against censorship. And so he had a little bit more leeway, I guess, to operate. And initially in 1831, he was threatened with a 6,000 franc fine. In 1831, that's. I don't know what the conversion is, but that's gotta be a lot of dough.

[Josh Clark]

It's US$45,000 today, which you'd think it'd be way more, but that's.

[Chuck Bryant]

What, did you really do that?

[Josh Clark]

I found a Swedish currency converter. Historic currency converter.

[Chuck Bryant]

So inflation and currency conversions.

[Josh Clark]

Yes.

[Chuck Bryant]

Amazing. And that's why you're Josh Clark.

[Josh Clark]

I didn't make this restaurant. I just used it.

[Chuck Bryant]

6,000 franc fine. He drew a caricature of King Louis Philippe with a pear for a head. And then when he was threatened with this fine. He put out possibly one of the first or the first multi panel cartoon, a four panel cartoon showing the metamorphosis from this king going like he's the king as a caricature. And now he looks a little more like a pear. A little more like a pear. And then he just has a pear for a head.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And the whole point was, come on, like the guy looks like a pear. And it's ridiculous that you would try to fine me $6,000 for pointing out something so obvious.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And I guess he avoided that fine at the time, but afterward he's like, okay, I really need to, to get in trouble. So I'm going to create one called Gargantua. And this one was way worse than, than saying the king looks like he has a pair for a head. This was the king giant, like gorging himself on taxes that were being fed directly to him by the poor people. He's sitting on his throne and then he's pooping out like tax breaks and special treatment for the wealthy friends of his. And that one got him in trouble.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, it's a good cartoon. It's a ramp from the ground straight up to this giant's mouth with people in their wheelbarrows, just like walking up and getting in his mouth and being pooped out as spoils.

[Josh Clark]

It's a great piece of art too. Not just the political version of or political aspect. It's beautiful as far as art goes.

[Chuck Bryant]

But that got him six months in the huskal. But they let him out and he started working again. King Philippe was asked about this and, you know, kind of like, why are you cracking down on this? But people can have a pamphlet printed with words that are very critical of you. And he said, a pamphlet is no more than a violation of opinion. A caricature amounts to an act of violence.

[Josh Clark]

You started out with almost a French accent there for a second, and then.

[Chuck Bryant]

I debated it, then I came back and then it was British for a hot second and then it was just regal. General regal.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. It really did evolve that quickly too. So, yeah, King Louis Philippe put his finger on something that there's something special or something different about a political cartoon. That is way different than, say, a news article or even a photograph. You know, you can make the point. The news article for centuries and centuries could only be read by a select number of people. Everybody could get a political cartoon. But there's something more than that too. There's. There's just something about a political cartoon that people who've been taken down by political cartoons have. Have been able to put their finger on and. And said there's. This is way worse than just writing about me for some reason.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I think that tracks, too, even to, like, if you think about in, like, high school, if a teacher caught you writing, like, a note to your friend that said, you know, Mr. Clark is such a jerk. I think that would be taken different than if someone drew a picture of Mr. Clark, like, bent over being paddled by a line of students or something, you know? Don't you think?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. No.

[Chuck Bryant]

Or would it be equal?

[Josh Clark]

No, it'd be equal unless you put, like, stink lines coming off of me, and then it'd be really hurtful.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, man. Stink lines. Who's the first person to do the stink lines?

[Josh Clark]

I don't know. I'll bet it was a political cartoonist, too. Wasn't that great?

[Chuck Bryant]

Should we take a break?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, let's take a break and we'll come back and talk about one of the more famous political cartoonists of all time, Thomas Nasty.

[Jeremy Scott]

Something unexpected happened after Jeremy Scott confessed to killing Michelle Schofield in Bone Valley season one.

[Chuck Bryant]

I just knew him as a kid.

[Jeremy Scott]

Long, silent voices from his past came.

[Gilbert King]

Forward, and he was just staring at me.

[Jeremy Scott]

And they had secrets of their own to share.

[Gilbert King]

Gilbert King. I'm the son of Jeremy Lynn Scott.

[Jeremy Scott]

I was no longer just telling the story. I was part of it.

[Gilbert King]

Every time I hear about my dad is, oh, he's a killer. He's just straight evil.

[Jeremy Scott]

I was becoming the bridge between a killer and the son he'd never known.

[Gilbert King]

If the cops and everything would have done their job properly, my dad would have been in jail. I would have never existed.

[Jeremy Scott]

I never expected to find myself in this place. Now I need to tell you how I got here.

[Gilbert King]

At the end of the day, I'm literally a son of a killer.

[Jeremy Scott]

Bone Valley Season 2 Jeremy.

[Josh Clark]

Jeremy, I want to tell you something.

[Jeremy Scott]

Listen to new episodes of bone Valley Season 2 starting April 9 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear the entire new season ad free with exclusive content starting April 9th. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Charles W. McCoy]

Lately, I've been learning some stuff about insomnia or aluminia. How about the one on borderline disorder? Better yet, reporter. Heard that one before, but it was so nice out. Learned it twice. Everybody, listen up. Oh, it's Charles and Joshua. It stops. It stops. It stops now.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, we're back. Josh promised talk of Thomas Nast he's the most famous American political cartoonist, probably very influential cartoonist of the 19th century. And that's early on. You were like, what. What was going on back then? Well, the Civil War was going on back then, and he was a German immigrant who drew for Harper's Weekly when Harper's Weekly was really growing in their readership with a lot of pro Union political cartoons.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, there was one, I think, kind of tracks with what you were saying that's not at all funny, but it's super poignant.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

Called Compromise with the South. The Democrats had run on a platform that the Civil War had been a failure up to this point for the 1864 election, when Lincoln was standing for re election and that we should basically work with the south to just forget about the Civil War and end this. And Thomas Nast didn't like that one bit. So this Compromise with the south image shows a amputee, a Union soldier standing on a crutch, shaking hands with his head bowed, shaking hands with a triumphant Confederate officer.

[Chuck Bryant]

Who's got Jefferson Davis?

[Josh Clark]

Is it Jefferson Davis? He's got, like, his. His boot standing one foot on Union soldier's grave. And Colombia, who represents the United States, is weeping at that grave. And then also poignantly, there's a Union soldier, an African American Union soldier and his wife who are now on the Southern side, and they're shackled back to being slaves.

[Chuck Bryant]

It's a gut punch, man.

[Josh Clark]

It is. It's a really good example of a political cartoon that isn't funny but really gets the point across. And apparently it had a huge impact on America, especially the Union. Right?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mean, some people say that had a lot to do with Lincoln getting reelected. Lincoln referred to Thomas Nast at one point as our best recruiting agent. And in the 1868 election, Ulysses S. Grant credited his win to the sword of Sheridan and the pencil of Nast. Yeah, I had never heard of Columbia, but you'll see in a lot of these political cartoons, Columbia as a representation of America was used a lot. And I think this is just a guess. I didn't look it up, but it seems like Lady Liberty's Statue of Liberty has sort of replaced Columbia as far as the cartoon ship goes. Because anytime there's like a sort of one of the sad gut punch ones, it's some shameful thing America has done. And like, Lady Liberty is crying somewhere or something like that.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I think Uncle Sam also displaced Columbia as well. And Thomas Nast is the one who popularized the current image of Uncle Sam with His hat.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right.

[Josh Clark]

All that. That was Thomas Nast as well. He had a huge, huge impact as a political cartoonist.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, he did the. He was the guy who came up with the elephant and the donkey for the two political parties.

[Josh Clark]

That's right.

[Chuck Bryant]

And also popularized our current conception, American conception of Santa Claus.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, because remember, German immigrants are the ones who really brought Christmas to the United States. And Thomas Nast was a German immigrant, so he loved Christmas. And, yeah, he gave us our version of Santa Claus. The thing that he's most remembered for as a political cartoonist, though, is that he is credited with taking down William Boss Tweed, who is one of the most corrupt political officials in the history of the United States. Apparently, in a decade, he is thought to have stolen a billion dollars from New York City in today's money.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's incredible. Yeah, he's popped up a lot in our. Obviously, our New York centric episodes about the history of New York. Very corrupt person for the Tammany hall political machine. And I think Nast had more than 140 Boss Tweed cartoons alone in Harper's.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So, yeah, it was a big deal. Boss Tweed, very much like King Louis Philippe, was aware that these things were having an effect on him. And he apparently said, stop them damn pictures. I don't care a straw for your newspaper articles. My constituents can't read, but they can't help seeing them damn pictures. And, I mean, there was a lot of reporting at the time by some of the New York newspapers about Boss Tweed, and they definitely had some effect on getting him investigated and ultimately put into prison where he died. But, like, you really can't. Like, you could put all those articles and combine them pretty much equally with Thomas Nast's political cartoons and be like, this is what took down Boss. Treated these two things basically equally.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. And, you know, a lot of times I think people think about political cartoons as coming from the political left or the liberal progressive side, and that is certainly true. But all kinds of newspapers have always had political cartoons, and all sorts of issues have been attacked from all angles from political cartoonists over the years. There have been plenty of examples of both. Nass was one of those. That was sort of a contradiction. We'll talk a little bit about immigration and political cartoons throughout history. And he was one who kind of hid it from both sides. He would draw one one year in 1870, criticizing anti immigration, the Know Nothing Party. And that was called throwing down the ladder by which they rose. And about a year later had political cartoons out. You Know, criticizing Irish immigrants as violent drunks taking over the country.

[Josh Clark]

Right. Yeah. And this was a time when immigration was huge, huge issue in the United States. For probably the first time, it became like a flashpoint, like, issue that you could run an entire campaign on.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, yeah.

[Josh Clark]

For example, there was a cartoon from 1903 in a satirical weekly called Judge called Unrestricted Dumping Ground.

[Chuck Bryant]

Man, this one's tough.

[Josh Clark]

It is. And there's a lot going on in this.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Cartoon. There's. It's color, which is. It really pops. But Uncle Sam is basically standing at the shores of the United States and there's a bunch of immigrants swimming to the shore, but they're rats with human faces, which, number one, is unsettling, but number two is really offensive. And they're being dumped out of. Basically, it looks almost like a mailbox or something that says the slums of Europe. And they're. They're. They're being dumped into New York harbor. And Uncle Sam's just standing there watching, wondering if he can do anything about it. And then William McKinley is floating in like a cloud. The reason William McKinley was featured is because he was president. He was assassinated by a guy named leo Czolgosz in 1899. And Czolgosz was born in Michigan, but he was considered an immigrant because his parents were immigrants. So, like, this was the kind of stuff that was being run in papers and magazines at the time, basically saying, like, immigrants are rats, and, like, you can't let them in.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Well, and those rats also, just to further drive the point home, they had labels on these individual human rats that said, like, mafia, anarchist, socialist. So it was, you know, pretty on the nose, I guess you could say.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

There was another ad. As far as the immigration front goes, Teddy Roosevelt at one point talked about hyphenated Americans being able to vote. Like that shouldn't happen. Irish American, German American. And this one was from Puck magazine, which was. Was that American or was that British? I thought that was British.

[Josh Clark]

I think Punch was British and Puck was American.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, Punch was British. But it had a caption again, Uncle Sam, saying, why should I let these freaks vote when they're only half American?

[Josh Clark]

Right. Yeah, it's a. Yeah, it's. It's. It's a really bizarre cartoon. It's tough to describe, but go look that one up. So one of the other things we said is, is that political cartoons sometimes also target policies, social issues. And there was a really good one that Dave turned up called from the Cradle to the Mill that really got across child labor or the need for child labor laws. It's this innocent looking little probably five year old kid. I think he's holding a teddy bear still. And this dark ghoulish spirit named Necessity Grim Reaper, basically. Yeah. Essentially has come into the child's house and is taking him by the hand to lead him off to the mill for work. And it really, it gets the point across. Like, you know, this was from 1912 and if child labor was still an issue today, you could run it today. It just really just captured what, what the problem was.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And this was a time, you know, we talked about the, in France, you know, when that, when the one political cartoonist was put in jail for six months. In America at this point, there were limits on freedom of speech. So in 1917, that artist who drew that was targeted by the freshly passed Espionage act, which was part of which was an attempt to silence critics of us going into World War I. And they almost did put him in prison for a cartoon called Having Their Fling. And this is a pretty brutal one too. And it showed the editors, capitalists, politicians and preachers cheering entry into an orgy of death, basically.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, that one hits as well, for sure. Speaking of world Wars, World War II was a big kind of accelerator of political cartoons because by this time newspapers have really hit in the United States and around the world. But there were a lot of newspapers in the middle of the century, the 20th century. And so World War II like produced a lot of fodder for political cartoons. One of whom, one of the, I don't know if he was one of the most famous at the time, but today one of the Most noteworthy was Dr. Seuss, who I think we mentioned in our Dr. Seuss episode, was a political cartoonist for a little while during World War I or 2.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, of course, Theodor Geisel. Yeah, we did talk about this because some of the stuff he worked for a New York newspaper called PM for I think two or three years in the early 40s.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

And it's, you know, it looks like Dr. Seuss stuff in his total signature style. But he would like some of them would be like against racist and discriminatory hiring practices and policies that are hampering the war effort. But he also, and we talked about this in the Seuss episode many years later, was kind of called out for having a lot of racist caricatures drawn in his work.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, Especially there's one of Tojo who ran Japan at the time during World War II. And in just the most racist Japanese stereotype you can possibly imagine, but Dr. Seuss style.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, exactly.

[Josh Clark]

So, yeah, there was another prominent cartoonist that actually emerged from World War II, like, was drawing editorial cartoons on the front lines of World War II. His name was Bill Mauldin. I want to say maudlin so bad, but it's Malden.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, me too.

[Josh Clark]

And if you see pictures of him when he was, you know, drawing these cartoons During World War II, he looks like a baby. He looks like the kid that necessity comes and takes from his house to the mill in that one 1912 political cartoon.

[Chuck Bryant]

Now, I'm looking up a picture of him because I didn't actually look up the artist. And, yeah, he. He looks like a child.

[Josh Clark]

He really does. And he came up with two of the most. The most beloved characters, recurring characters in the history of political cartoons. In part because there's not really that many recurring characters in political cartoons. Right. But There were two GIs named Willie and Joe, and he just depicted their life in the front lines humorously, for the most part, but sometimes kind of poignantly as well.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And these a lot of times were just. I don't think we mentioned, like, you know, sometimes it'll be an image with a kind of like the back of the New Yorker with those cartoons. They'll have a caption, right.

[Josh Clark]

The New Yorker is stealing my ideas. Ziggy at the complaint window.

[Chuck Bryant]

Most of these had captions, the Willie and Joe stuff. But not all political cartoons use words at all. Sometimes very few words. Sometimes this word's just in the image, like on a sign or something like that. But sometimes it's like a character saying something.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, there's one that I think really kind of stands out of Bill Malden's, that shows a GI returning from World War II. He's sitting in at a table and he's being interviewed by the press. And there's an Army PR man standing next to him and has his arm around his shoulder, and he's speaking on behalf of this gi, and he says he thinks the food over there was swell. He's glad to be home. But he misses the excitement of battle, you may quote him. And it's just kind of. Well, I don't know. I'll leave it to you to decide what it means.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right. Yeah. There's another one here that I'm looking at. That's Willie and Joe reading the papers of their new. A new soldier brought to the battalion. And the new soldier is clearly like, you know, 13 years old or something. And Willie and Joe, he says, oh, that's okay. The replacement center says he comes from a long line of infantrymen.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. His uniform is like hanging off of him.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. So clearly making a point about, like, sending children to war.

[Josh Clark]

There was another thing too, that was a recurring theme in these. In Malden's World War II cartoons. And. And that is how important hearing from people back home was to gis. Like, getting mail was a recurring theme throughout that. And there was one that I saw that it was like you were saying there's no dialogue, there's no caption or anything like that. But it's a soldier and he's sitting there with like, he's. He's sitting down with his back against a tree. He's holding his rifle up, but at his feet is a bunch of packages that say, do not open until December 25th. So like he's in battle carrying around this package that he can't wait to open until Christmas. It's like, it's got a touch of humor to it, but more than anything, it really struck me as quite touching, you know?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, yeah, for sure. The one that artistically is like. I think one of the coolest ones was actually from a German. I mean, I really hate saying this out loud. It was from a Nazi. And what was his name? His name was Harald. He was a Norwegian Nazi named Harald damsle. And in 1944 he drew a political cartoon. The caption reads, the USA shall save European culture from destruction. With what? Right. And it's a picture, you know, sort of pointing out all the hypocrisies of America. Like, you know, this big winged sort of multi armed multi leg beast made out of a drum and has a Klansman head and holding a money bag and there's a noose hanging off. It's just crazy looking. It looks like something like Pink Floyd would have used on an album cover.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it is nuts. It's called Kulture Terror, but spelled with a K. And I think terror's spelled differently too, I guess, in the Norwegian.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, there's your band then. Just call your band that and use that as the album cover.

[Josh Clark]

Colter Terror. Yeah, that's a great idea. You're halfway there, but go check it out because it's striking. Just the art alone is striking, but that the Nazis calling out America for our own misdeeds. Misdeeds. Great, thank you. That was also carried on by some Americans too. There was a black cartoonist named Jay Jackson who drew for the Chicago Defender, which is a black newspaper. And During World War II, did you see the One of the blind leading the blind.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

I mean, talk about striking. So it's America. It's a figure representing America, and he's leading a figure with a swastika. So he's representing Germany. I think it even says Germany on the guy. And they're both blind and they're both wearing dark glasses, and on the lenses, it says race hate. So what he's saying is that, like, you know, both of these countries that are fighting this war for moral superiority are both blinded by their hatred of different races. And it's. It's one of the better political cartoons I've ever seen. Again, not funny, like you were saying, but still just an amazing point.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. We should probably take our last break. Right before the break, I want to mention that they've been giving out a Pulitzer Prize for editorial cartooning. They started that in 1922, and Bill Malden won that Pulitzer for his World War II work. And we'll talk about someone else who won several of those awards right after this.

[Jeremy Scott]

Something unexpected happened after Jeremy Scott confessed to killing Michelle Schofield in Bone Valley Season one.

[Chuck Bryant]

I just knew him as a kid.

[Jeremy Scott]

Long, silent voices from his past came.

[Gilbert King]

Forward, and he was just staring at me.

[Jeremy Scott]

And they had secrets of their own to share.

[Gilbert King]

I'm Gilbert King. I'm the son of Jeremy Lynn Scott.

[Jeremy Scott]

I was no longer just telling the story. I was part of it.

[Gilbert King]

Every time I hear about my dad, it's, oh, he's a killer. He's just straight evil.

[Jeremy Scott]

I was becoming the bridge between a killer and the son he'd never known.

[Gilbert King]

If the cops and everything would have done their job properly, my dad would have been in jail. I would have never existed.

[Jeremy Scott]

I never expected to find myself in this place. Now I need to tell you how I got here.

[Gilbert King]

At the end of the day, I'm literally a son of a killer.

[Jeremy Scott]

Bone Valley Season 2 Jeremy.

[Josh Clark]

Jeremy, I want to tell you something.

[Jeremy Scott]

Listen to new episodes of bone Valley Season 2 starting April 9 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear the entire new season ad free with exclusive content starting April 9th. Subscribe to Lava for Good. Plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Charles W. McCoy]

Lately, I've been learning some stuff about insomnia or aluminia. How about the. The one on borderline disorder? Better yet, worth order. Heard that one before, but it was so nice, I learned it twice. Everybody, listen up. Oh, it's Charles and Joshua. It stopped. It stopped. It stopped. You should know how.

[Josh Clark]

Okay, Chuck, I just Want to point out, I think we said we weren't really going to describe images.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, not much. Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

We've been doing it pretty prolifically. I hope it's going well. I can't tell.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, no more.

[Josh Clark]

So I think we should talk about a guy named Herb Block, or Herblock was his pen name. Cartoon name. And he's considered probably the most important political cartoonist of the entire 20th century. He's got three Pulitzers for cartooning alone and an additional Pulitzer for public service that he got for just excoriating Nixon over the Watergate scandal.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Imagine if you're a political cartoonist during Watergate, you're kind of licking your chops.

[Josh Clark]

A bit, you know? Yeah, for sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

Or McCarthyism. Like, he was really around during a fraught, fraught time politically.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. He drew just. Bloch alone drew more than 100 cartoons about Watergate between 72 and 74. And that's something that I think bears pointing out. Political cartoonists are expected to draw a cartoon a day. Like, you didn't write an article every day. You didn't go cover something. You drew a political cartoon five days a week to run in the daily newspaper.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And 25 of them for Saturday and Sunday.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

And Block, actually. I mean, I talked about the time that he was there. I mean, it's actually pretty vast. He was there from 46 to 2001.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

So he got to cover quite a bit politically. He coined the term McCarthyism. I think we talked about that in the McCarthyism episode in a 1950 cartoon. He was definitely on the left side of the political spectrum because he would go after environmental polluters and war, the immorality of war, the government as a whole, and they have named since 2004, the best editorial political cartoonist is named after him. The Herblock Prize.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And I went and looked to see who some of the recent candidates or winners were, and there's one that I noticed. I was looking through current political cartoons, and this guy kept coming up. His name was Pedro X. Molina, and he draws for counterpoint. So he is super lefty. He was a 2024 finalist for the Herblock Prize. But his cartoons are just on point. He's, I think, probably the best working today of the younger generation.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, cool.

[Josh Clark]

One of the ones that I saw was there's an old, like, an extension cord outlet, you know, it'll have, like, the two outlets that you can plug into.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, you sent me this one, right?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. It just looks old and worn and everything. And one of the outlets says Biden and the other one says Trump. And then also in the picture is a Apple Charger and that says Gen Z. They have nowhere to, no one to plug it into. Yeah, and it's just there's no words aside from the names and Gen Z. And like it just again, really gets the point across. But I like that guy's work.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, it also, instead of saying Gen Z, could have said a lot of America.

[Josh Clark]

Right, Right. For sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

So we should finish up by talking a bit about Charlie Hebdo, as promised early on, you mentioned that France has been a hotbed for satire since the get go. And the radical satirical newspaper Charlie Hebdo has been around for a long, long time, since 1960. Their original motto was mean and nasty. And they made we probably would not here in the States unless you just are sort of in the know, not known much about Charlie Hebdo had it not been for a couple of track. Tragic event on Halloween Day in 2011, they published issue number 1011. They retitled instead of Charlie Hebdo, they retitled the issue Charia Hebdo for Sharia law. And it was a cover in response to the Tunisian news where an Islamist party had won parliamentary elections there. And on the COVID it featured a cartoon rendering of the prophet Muhammad. And the caption read, 100 lashes if you do not die laughing. And in Islam, any image of Muhammad is very much forbidden, much less a cartoon making fun of something. And violence ensued because of this.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I think in 2012. No, that same year, 2011. So within a couple months, the offices were firebombed. No one was hurt. But in response, and I didn't know this, I thought it was just that cover, that drawing, which is, you know, like, you don't do that. That's a violation of, of like a huge violation of Islamic custom to, to make any kind of, like you said, picture of Muhammad, let alone making a cartoon. But they, they went even further after the firebombing. And in 2012, they published more cartoons, one of which was Mohammed naked on all fours. And that actually, from what I can tell, is what triggered the murders of a bunch of the people who work at the offices in 2015.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, it was. Two men stormed into the offices, murdered 12 people. This was, you know, the biggest news. There's a cat walking around outside my house right now that I do not recognize. Very interesting. Sorry, just caught me off guard.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it did.

[Chuck Bryant]

I was like, did one of my cats get out? It's like, nope, it's not one of my cats.

[Josh Clark]

It's a burglar.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Murdered 12 people. Probably not the best time to mention that during the middle of this awful, awful retelling, including the editor of Charlie Hebdo, four other cartoonists, it also went on to kill four Jewish people. And then the French police took them out.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And so, like, immediately there were protests and marches in France, like millions of people across the country. And basically a meme was developed almost immediately. It was, je suis Charlie, and it means, I am Charlie. And they were saying, like, I'm standing up for freedom of expression, freedom of speech. And that was pretty much the zeitgeist across all of France. Like, everyone stood up and supported Charlie Hebdo after that tragedy. And I saw, Chuck, that 10 years, on the 10 year anniversary just came and went this past January. They apparently people have changed their opinions in some cases. Just like 31% of people polled agreed with the idea that Charlie Hebdo brought that on themselves, whereas that same. The answer to that question would have probably been in the low single digits.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right after the shoot at the time.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

I just thought that was interesting. I mean, how different things can change in 10 years, you know?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mean, in the wake of a tragedy like that. Yeah. I'm not saying I agree one way or the other. I just, I think a lot of times opinions change on stuff like that over time for certain people.

[Josh Clark]

10 years is a long time these days. It didn't used to be, but man, oh, man, a lot can happen in 10 years. We've learned to pack it in.

[Chuck Bryant]

So we mentioned early on that there's only 20 on staff, major newspaper cartoonists. The reason for that, as we all know, is newspapers are having a tough time. Declining subscriptions mean they don't want to have further declining subscriptions by angering readership on either side of the political spectrum. Because people might cancel over something like that and they just can't afford that anymore. So people are more sensitive these days. Sadly, editors are not standing behind their cartoonists like they used to.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, they definitely.

[Chuck Bryant]

And if they flag something, they, you know, they'll pull it and the cartoonist may quit or may be fired.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I mean, if people complain about a political cartoon, it used to be like, hey, it's true. Now it's like, oh, sorry. And then they print a retraction and then fire the political cartoonist. That's new. That's the way that the, the industry is changing, but it seems to be pretty much relegated to newspapers and just some newspapers.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

You know, like Mike Luckovich at the ajc. He's one of the premier editorial cartoonists still working today.

[Chuck Bryant]

For a newspaper man, he's been around for a long, long time.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And he doesn't pull punches. And I think that AJC has stood behind him every single time.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So it's not, it's not like it's going to happen. You know, no matter what newspaper you work at. It just depends on the. Usually the outlook of the publisher.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

And if you offend the publisher used to be like the editors would talk them down, but the editors don't do that anymore. And so you can get fired. And there was a very well known political cartoonist, another Pulitzer winner named Ann telnay's. And in 2019, she kind of saw the writing on the wall and she published like a series or. Not a series is multi, multi panel cartoon that basically was an infographic explaining what political cartoonists do, the danger that they're in right now in the United States as far as like being canceled and fired and then what. What the problem, what the ultimate problem with that is. And she essentially says political cartoonists are the canary in the coal mine. If we start getting fired for expressing opinions and views that are legitimate because people don't wanna hear that, that is a big red flag that freedom of expression is under attack in your country. And she was saying that's basically happening right now. And she ultimately quit just earlier this year, right?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. She had been at the Washington Post for 17 years and quit because her editors there at the Post refused to publish one of her cartoons based only on her opinion. So it's. Yeah, that's kind of the state of things at the Washington Post these days.

[Josh Clark]

Yes. So. And across a lot of newspapers, like, again, they're like an endangered breed. But that's specifically at newspapers. It's still a very thriving art form. And you can make a really good case that it's still around and very popular. It's just transmuted in a lot of cases to memes. I'll give you an example of one I saw recently. You know, this is fine. The dog sitting at the table drinking coffee in a room that's on fire.

[Chuck Bryant]

I haven't seen that.

[Josh Clark]

I think this is fine.

[Chuck Bryant]

I don't see many memes, though.

[Josh Clark]

It's a great meme. But in one panel, he's just sitting there and it says, arson is free speech now. And then the next panel, it's him just sitting there drinking the coffee in the room on fire. And he says this is fine. And that I Mean, it's a meme. Somebody put it together, probably using a meme generator. But you can also make a case that that is, in a lot of ways, it bears a strong resemblance to political cartoons. All right, you got anything else?

[Chuck Bryant]

I got nothing else.

[Josh Clark]

Okay, well, since we got nothing else, that means this episode is done, and it's time for listener mail.

[Chuck Bryant]

This one's Scrabble centric. Before I read this email, we do have to acknowledge that we failed to mention the ultimate Simpsons reference, of course, of Quidjibo. Very, very old Simpsons reference from an early episode where Bart Simpson, I think it was Bart, argued for Quidjibo, which was just the letters as they appeared on his rack was a word.

[Josh Clark]

Right, Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay. So sorry about the quidgybo. We heard from a lot of people, but this is a different email. Hey, guys, the real reason I'm writing is to tell you about the role of Scrabble in my family's history. My parents loved to play Scrabble, and my dad, being the kind of guy he was, made up a table to record their stats by hand, using a ruler, both to make sure the lines are straight and the columns are each the same width from page to page. Ended up using five pages or so of very thin lines. He would record the date in the game that was played in the final score and my mom's final score. Two more columns in which he would track a running total of many games of how many games each of them had won. Besides being a perfect example of my dad, there's also interesting thing about the dates. There are three periods when they begin to play all the time, following periods for which they hardly played at all. In between each, my two siblings and I were born. That's pretty funny. They're like, why did things drop off for two years?

[Josh Clark]

We had other things to do.

[Chuck Bryant]

Exactly. When my dad died, I inherited their Scrabble board and their record was in it. And this is one of my most precious possessions. That is from Reverend Eric.

[Josh Clark]

That's a sweet email. Thanks a lot, Reverend.

[Chuck Bryant]

That was great.

[Josh Clark]

I can just imagine, man, making your own columns and rows with a ruler. That's dedication right there.

[Chuck Bryant]

I know those dads. I'm not that dad, and my dad wasn't that dad, but I've known those dads.

[Josh Clark]

Yep. If you want to be like Reverend Eric and send us an email that tells us how sweet your parents were. We love those kinds of things. You can send it off to Stuff. Podcastheartradio.com.

[Chuck Bryant]

Stuff youf Should Know is a production of iHeartradio. For more podcasts My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartradio app, Apple podcast Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Jeremy Scott]

Something unexpected happened after Jeremy Scott confessed to killing Michelle Schofield in Bone Valley Season one.

[Gilbert King]

Every time I hear about my dad is, oh, he's a killer. He's just straight evil.

[Jeremy Scott]

I was becoming the bridge between Jeremy Scott in the son he'd never Known.

[Gilbert King]

At the end of the day, I'm literally a son of a killer.

[Jeremy Scott]

Listen to new episodes of bone Valley Season 2, starting April 9 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.