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- [00:00]
Chuck Bryant
Hey everyone. We're brought to you today by the Capital One Quicksilver card. Earn unlimited 1.5% cash back on every purchase everywhere. Plus, there's no limit to the amount of cash back you can earn, and rewards don't expire for the life of the account. It's that simple. The Capital One Quicksilver Card what's in your wallet? Terms apply seecapitalone.com for details.
- [00:24]
Josh Clark
What is chronic migraine? It's 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more. Botox Onobotulinum Toxinae prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. It's not approved for adults with migraine who have 14 or fewer headache days a month. Ask your doctor about Botox Botox is a prescription medicine injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions including als, Lou Gehrig's disease, Myasthenia gravis or Lambert Eaton syndrome and medications including Botulinum toxins as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. Talk to your doctor and visit botoxchronicmigraine.com or call 1-844botox to learn more. Welcome to Stuff youf Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
- [01:35]
Jerry
Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck. And Jerry's not here, but she's here in spirit. We're all flashing our pearly whites because we're in a lineup and this is stuff.
- [01:46]
Chuck Bryant
That's right. Or in my case, the front four are my pearly off whites. Because when they made me my new set of four teeth to go up front to replace my four teeth, they were too white and they looked weird.
- [02:00]
Jerry
Oh really?
- [02:01]
Chuck Bryant
And they said we can send them back and have them stain them just a bit more. And I went, yeah, we're going to have to do that.
- [02:07]
Jerry
Like Matt Dillon. And there's something about Mary.
- [02:10]
Chuck Bryant
They weren't quite Chiclet white, but they were enough to where they looked a little different than the others and the others are just going to, you know, as teeth do continue to stain a bit. So yeah, it was like, yeah, why don't we go ahead and knock it down a notch.
- [02:24]
Jerry
You should have just smoked a bunch of cigarettes, done it yourself, saved some money.
- [02:29]
Chuck Bryant
I don't think these implants will. That's the problem is they don't stain while the others are.
- [02:34]
Jerry
Oh, okay. Well, then, yeah, you definitely need to hand those off for staining in the lab.
- [02:39]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah. I'm like, why? I just smoked 80 cigarettes. So today, another. And I thought we were done with forensics, but who knew that lurking out there was the topic of forensic dentistry, which we will learn very quickly, as in right now kind of can be divided up into two things, which is identification of deceased people or peoples from dental records. Like when you hear like, you know, they perished in the fire, but they were able to identify the body. And the much more controversial bite mark analysis, that had been widely used in court and is now generally thought of by most dentists and people in this line of work as junk science.
- [03:27]
Jerry
Yeah, it's. I mean, just from researching this, it's like, what kind of judge is still allowing this in as evidence? It's crazy.
- [03:34]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah.
- [03:36]
Jerry
Yeah. So I guess I just revealed my take on. On forensic dentistry or bite mark analysis, specifically because the other version you said identifying deceased people is. No, it's not. It's. It's pretty. Pretty much set most. I didn't read anybody who was challenging it or its legitimacy. And apparently it's been really useful over the years because the teeth are the strongest part of the body. They can survive fire. They can survive exposure to chemicals that could just get rid of the rest of the body. They can survive explosions up to, I think, 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit. They can take heat up to that. As anyone who's made it far enough in Breaking Bad knows that eventually, if it gets hot enough, they'll pop like popcorn. But most of the time, if a dead person who's unidentifiable comes into a medical examiner's office, they have not been exposed to that level of heat.
- [04:31]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah. And even if the teeth themselves are struggling to hang in there, tooth pulp or dental tissue on the inside of that tooth is very resistant to environmental attacks like incineration, immersion. Like you can be underwater for, I was about to say, a million years, but that's probably not true. But immersion, trauma, decomposition. So extracting DNA from the inside of a tooth is a pretty viable thing. But before 1974, all you really had going was identifying victims of a disaster, usually a natural disaster or human caused disaster. They did not really get into crime scene stuff. Because in 1975 is when that first became permissible in court, where a murder victim had a bite on her nose and three forensic dentists came along and said, hey, it's pretty clear this bite came from this person. It should be maybe the exception to the rule, but we should allow it in court this time.
- [05:37]
Jerry
Yes. And that was a very fateful decision, because as that case made its way through appeals and a final appellate court upheld it, that also simultaneously not only convicted the killer, it also, it said, this is legitimate. Bite mark analysis is admissible in courts. It set a precedent. And that exception that those three forensic dentists in their defense went to bat for, for use in this particular case became the rule. And there was no longer like, hey, this is not actually that great of an idea. It was, hey, we've got this new way of prosecuting scumbags. Let's use it to the max. And there was a really famous case within just a couple of years of it becoming widely used in American courts that's still celebrated today as one of the great successes of bite mark analysis. Because it's not like every single case is worse than the last, but there's enough bad cases and enough people who've been wrongly convicted and later exonerated based on bite mark evidence that it should not. It's not. It should not be allowed. You just go figure out who did it some other way. Stop using bite mark analysis.
- [06:50]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah. Dozens of people, according to the Innocence Project. And we should point out from 1975 until just recently, like 2016, is when they finally made a firm decision, which we'll hold onto that one, but that's really when things changed. But I think the case that you were talking about is Ted. Ted Bundy. In 1978, a notorious serial killer, Ted Bundy, would sort of wind up his serial killing career by wandering into the Chi Omega sorority house at Florida State University and bludgeoning and killing four students, sorority sisters there, including one victim, where he bit her and left very clear bite marks. And those bite marks were instrumental in Ted Bundy's conviction.
- [07:42]
Jerry
Yeah. The two Chi Omega women were. Who were. Who died, who did not manage to live, were Lisa Levy and Margaret Bowman. But he did some pretty terrible damage to some the other two, I guess. But that bite mark, apparently Ted Bundy had extremely crooked front teeth. So much so. And the bite mark was clear enough that they used that bite mark analysis in part to convict him for those murders. Those were. He apparently admitted to killing 30 women, possibly killed as many as 100. And so one of the, one of the cases he was prosecuted for were the Chi Omega murders.
- [08:20]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah, that's right. So that's a good setup. We should just mention sort of as far as the identification, the non controversial part. Adults usually have 32 teeth. Four incisors, four canines, eight premolars, 12 molars and four wisdom, depending on if you still have those. And when you go to the dentist, they, you know, we've been to the dentist and they do a lot of notating. They notate your teeth, variations in your teeth, changes in your teeth. If you chip a tooth, any dental work you've gotten, like crowns or fillings or bridges or in my case, four implants, periodontal disease, receding gums. There are X rays and there are just the tooth charts. And these are the dental records that we speak of. When they say, you know, a body was identified via dental records, it's because of all this work that you get over the years at the dentist. I guess if you. Well, this doesn't have so much to do with bite mark analysis. I guess it could, but the records, it seem like, are mainly about identification.
- [09:24]
Jerry
Yeah. And also by law, I think every state requires dentists to keep dental charts on their patients. And then they also have to retain them for set number of years, depending on which state demands what. So they do come in handy. Just the charts alone will, like, there's not going to be X rays with them necessarily. There's not going to be any photographs just from the charts. And the, the, the coding systems that they've worked out to codify teeth can conceivably give you enough information that you could use it in some form of forensic dentistry. That's how accurate the charts are meant to be.
- [10:04]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah, for sure. So, you know, we mentioned all the ways teeth can hang in there and stay, you know, a part of your skull when other parts of your body have deteriorated. Teeth can shrink, they can become fragile. But if you handle them gently and with care, you can preserve them in lacquer. And what will happen if you need to identify a corpse usually is a dentist will go to the morgue, they will surgically expose the jaw and examine things. That's if you have like, you know, a pretty recent dead body that hasn't decomposed too much, if all you've got is a handful of teeth, that still may be enough due to those X rays and charts. But if it's mass casualties, a dentist is gonna. And these are forensic dentists, by the way. It's a specialty. They get a list of possible victims and then you start comparing different records of the different people to try and sort out who is who.
- [11:04]
Jerry
Yeah, yeah. It takes a special kind of dentist to do this kind of work. Because by the time the cadaver, the corpse has made it to the forensic dentist, everybody else upstream has said like, no, they don't have fingerprints, their face is unrecognizable. It just keeps going on and on and on until finally your last chance of identifying the person is forensic dentistry. And they'll often, I mean, like, if it's a mass casualty, you know, you know who is on the plane. Apparently that's when it comes in handy a lot for plane crashes. You know, all the passengers on the plane, you go get their dental records, you hand them over to the forensic dentist and say, good luck. Can you match any of these teeth with these charts? And they're, they're. I mean, they're a huge part of a forensic team in like, mass casualty events. They're, they're really important because again, they're like the last hope of some families getting closure, being able to like, give their loved one a funeral or something like that. Like, that's the role that they're, they're playing. They're not doing this because they like just playing with dead people's teeth or anything like that. Like, they are helping other humans with their work by identifying disaster victims. I'm not extending that to bite mark analysis.
- [12:20]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah, yeah, for sure. There's a lot of things you can sort of glean from looking at a person's teeth, about that person. It's not the most exact science, but we know generally how fast teeth grow, about 4 micrometers per day. So you can estimate someone's age based on their teeth?
- [12:39]
Jerry
Well, not only that, you can also, like when your teeth develop as a human, it follows a set pattern. So you can go and look at somebody's development, especially if they're under age, I think 20 something or 35, and say, well, they've developed this tooth, but they haven't developed this tooth. So they're probably 18ish.
- [12:59]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah, exactly. They can get it in a wheelhouse. Sometimes you can learn a little bit about someone's ethnicity because, you know, some ethnicities have teeth that are a little different. Apparently some Native Americans and some Asian people have incisors that have scooped out backs. You can determine sometimes some socioeconomic background. If there's, you know, a lot of really expensive restoration work that'll tell you that they probably had a lot of money or, you know, at least money to afford that.
- [13:31]
Jerry
Right.
- [13:31]
Chuck Bryant
Also, the methods that are used are used in some parts of the world and not in others. Like some geographic areas, person's lifestyle, like if they were a smoker. This is kind of fun. If you're a pipe smoker or if you play the bagpipes, you have a very distinctive wear pattern on your teeth.
- [13:50]
Jerry
Did you see any pictures of a skull with a wear from pipe smoking?
- [13:55]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah.
- [13:55]
Jerry
It's crazy. It's like the person's teeth curve up at some point. Like on. Basically, I think it was the right side of their face just from holding a pipe in their teeth for years and years and years.
- [14:08]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah. And then just sort of the obvious stuff, like a family member saying, like, no, they were definitely missing that tooth or that, you know, that distinctive crown with the diamond. CWB for Charles W. Chuck Bryant.
- [14:23]
Jerry
I know. I can't believe you got that stuff.
- [14:26]
Chuck Bryant
That was definitely their mouth or that tooth was broken. So beyond just dental records, like, family members can sometimes help out.
- [14:34]
Jerry
I also saw another lifestyle. One was something called a tailor's notch. This is pretty arcane, but if you find a tailor's notch, there's a chance that this was a dressmaker, a tailor, something like that. Because they hold pins in their. Their mouths.
- [14:48]
Chuck Bryant
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [14:49]
Jerry
As part of their profession, usually in their teeth. And when you do that enough times, it actually wears a little indentation in the tooth that you normally hold the sewing needle in. So do you want to talk about the Black Death or just keep moving on?
- [15:04]
Chuck Bryant
Let's take a break.
- [15:05]
Jerry
Okay.
- [15:06]
Chuck Bryant
All right, we'll take a break and we'll talk about the Black Death. And then dive into the more controversial bite mark analysis.
- [15:21]
Advertiser
Foreign.
- [15:26]
Chuck Bryant
We're brought to you today by the Capital One Quicksilver card. Earn unlimited 1.5% cash back on every purchase everywhere. Plus, there's no limit to the amount of cash back you can earn. And rewards don't expire for the life of the account. It's that simple. The Capital One Quicksilver Card. What's in your wallet? Terms apply C capital 1.
- [15:48]
Advertiser
For details, head over to NFLShop.com for the largest collection of officially licensed gear from all your favorite brands. NFL Shop is your ultimate gifting destination for jerseys, T shirts, headwear, and more. Take your game day style to the next level with the best selection of NFL gear anywhere. Show off your team pride this holiday season with styles fit for the whole family. To shop now, go to NFLShop.com Congratulations.
- [16:20]
To the University of Miami Miller School of Medicine for the first ever Malcolm Gladwell Tipping Point designation at this year's unconventional awards by T Mobile for Business. The University used integrated IoT devices and 5G solutions from T Mobile to enable multiple synchronized health monitors allowing for real time remote data collection and analysis. The initiative will shape patient care moving forward, and for that, T Mobile congratulates the University of Miami Miller School of Medicine.
- [17:07]
Jerry
So we promised talk about the Black Death. Apparently, one of the high profile, I guess, forensic dentistry cases recently was a study that looked at the teeth of, or I think it extracted DNA from the pulp of the teeth of medieval villagers who died from the plague. And I guess they were able to exclude the plague in some cases, like people had died and it was falsely attributed to a death from the plague. That seems almost inconsequential to me because the other thing that they did was definitively prove that Yersena pestis, which is a bacteria, I think, a bacteria that's carried by fleas typically. So the rats came to town, the fleas were on the rats, the bacteria was on the fleas, and that's what spread the Black Death. That's what they've long said. And they extracted that from the DNA of the pulp of teeth of medieval people who died from the plague. Definitely died from the plague. And said, yep, here's your smoking gun. There's your problem.
- [18:12]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah. And with something this old, a DNA isn't readily available. M DNA, mitochondrial DNA can also be very useful.
- [18:19]
Jerry
And I also saw the oldest tooth that they successfully sequenced the genome from by extracting DNA from The pulpit was 6,000 years old from about 4,000 BCE back in 2005. They managed to do that. And you know, those people are still talking about like, hey, did I ever tell you about the 4000 BCE tooth we extracted DNA from?
- [18:39]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah. Oh, boy. The smell of that tooth pulp.
- [18:41]
Jerry
Oh, God. Good God. That was awful. I was not expecting that.
- [18:48]
Chuck Bryant
All right, so now this is where things get a little hinky because we're going to talk about the other aspect of forensic dentistry, which is the very controversial, very complex bite mark analysis, which. And we'll get to the admissibility of it now in a bit, but they still do collect the evidence, which, you know, you should do. I don't think anyone's saying, like, hey, stop even doing this as far as evidence collection goes, but here's how they do that. If you see a bite mark or anything you think is a bite mark in a murder case, let's say you call in that forensic dentist who's just sitting around like so happy they don't have their hands in a live human being's mouth at the time.
- [19:29]
Jerry
Right.
- [19:30]
Chuck Bryant
And they gotta do it quick because time is of the essence. Because bite marks can change a lot pretty quickly, especially if a body has been deteriorating for a few days. Like the location of that bite may be entirely different because the skin is slipping and shrinking.
- [19:47]
Jerry
Yeah, that's a big one. Also, bruising and lividity can also obscure a bite mark or change it or alter it. So they often have to wait for the bruise to heal if the human's still alive, or wait for the lividity, the pooling of blood to just kind of come and go before they really examine it.
- [20:07]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah, they're going to take pictures with a ruler next to it. You've probably seen that in some movies.
- [20:13]
Jerry
I have. I saw it in Silence of the Lambs, right?
- [20:15]
Chuck Bryant
Oh yeah, that's right. Bite photography is very specific and very precise, or at least it should be. And then you can magnify those photos and stuff. But while they're doing this, the first thing that they're going to identify is like, was it a human bite or not? And seems like a no brainer. Like I could even tell. But you found a study from 2015 that doesn't quite hold up. I mean, that's about animals and human differences, right?
- [20:39]
Jerry
Yeah. There was a 2015 study that found they used 39 experts. These were board certified forensic odontologists or members of the American Board of Forensic Odontologists, the accrediting body. I don't know why I went into that much detail, but there you have it. They're the official people in this study with this 39 experts, they showed 100 photographs of bite marks and said, okay, we want some information about this. Are these. Let's just start with, is this a human bite mark or an animal bite mark?
- [21:13]
Chuck Bryant
The easiest thing in the world. Was this a dog or an adult human biting this person?
- [21:18]
Jerry
Exactly. And only 8% of the photographs. So eight of a hundred photographs. I just did that math and I'm quite confident it's correct.
- [21:27]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah, you nailed it.
- [21:28]
Jerry
Could 90% of those experts, I don't know what 90% of 39 is, come to consensus that yes, this is definitely human or yes, this is definitely animal? They did not.
- [21:40]
Chuck Bryant
Hard to believe.
- [21:41]
Jerry
Yeah. They did not agree on the other 92 photographs.
- [21:45]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah, I would think human and animal would be pretty easy to tell the difference, but you know, apparently not yeah.
- [21:52]
Jerry
Especially if the animal's wearing human dentures at the time.
- [21:55]
Chuck Bryant
Right, Good point.
- [21:59]
Jerry
Yeah, like that. You know that cartoon wolf from the old timey 1930s?
- [22:05]
Chuck Bryant
I don't think I know that.
- [22:06]
Jerry
Oh, sure you do. He was always like. His eyes would pop out of his head and, like, he was a wolf, you know, like.
- [22:11]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah, yeah, I gotcha.
- [22:13]
Jerry
So what else, Chuck?
- [22:15]
Chuck Bryant
Well, this is a pretty disturbing but, I guess, helpful thing that I never knew. After they inspect the body for the bite marks and all that stuff, they will actually cut out the bite mark and preserve it.
- [22:30]
Jerry
They're like, can I take this home?
- [22:32]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah. So they will cut the bite mark from the skin, preserve it in formaldehyde, and then make a silicone cast of the bite mark, which makes total sense. I just never thought about how gross that would seem.
- [22:44]
Jerry
Yeah, it is pretty gross. I mean, the whole process from start to finish is fairly gross.
- [22:48]
Chuck Bryant
In that case, what kind of bite marks, though, can they make?
- [22:51]
Jerry
Well, they classify them based on the kind of transfer pattern is what they call it. And it's not just specific to forensic odontology. Transfer patterns are what you're looking at when you look at the rifling on a bullet to try to identify what gun it came out of, which also apparently is junk science. Fingerprints. You're transferring your fingerprints, so it leaves a transfer pattern. Same thing with forensic odontology. And the different kinds of forensic patterns are based on the damage that the bites do. So if it scrapes, like, if you're. I don't need to put it any other way. That's considered an abrasion. Bite.
- [23:28]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah.
- [23:29]
Jerry
An artifact is when. Yeah, when there's an actual part of the body missing from. Because of the bite. It's not just a bite mark. There's actually tissue or something missing. Like an earlobe, I think is like Evander Holyfield's earlobe.
- [23:44]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah, I was about to say Mike Tyson bite.
- [23:47]
Jerry
So he's got a fight on Friday.
- [23:49]
Chuck Bryant
Oh, is he fighting that guy Friday on Netflix?
- [23:53]
Jerry
Shoot.
- [23:54]
Chuck Bryant
I'm not even gonna be here. I wanted to see that.
- [23:55]
Jerry
I'll tape it for you on the vcr.
- [23:57]
Chuck Bryant
You can tape it. All right, send me the tape. We also have avulsions. That is when just some of the skin is removed, I guess. Not an entire piece of the body. You have contusions, which is, of course, a bruise. If it's profusely bleeding, it's a hemorrhage. If it's a nice, clean, neat wound, then you have a very precise spider, and they call that an incision and then a puncture wound is a laceration.
- [24:20]
Jerry
Yes. And then there's also the different, like, depths or the obviousness of the bite mark is another category that they use. And it starts from lowest to highest. It took me a minute to figure this out because I don't think the wording they used is really good.
- [24:38]
Chuck Bryant
Agreed.
- [24:39]
Jerry
A clear impression means that there was significant pressure used. That's the lowest of the three categories.
- [24:46]
Chuck Bryant
Yes.
- [24:47]
Jerry
An obvious one signifies medium pressure, which that to me just like shows that this is not accurate science. Medium is a type of fry order, French fry order, not the depth of a bite mark. Like, medium is so subjective, Right? Yeah, all three of these are. And then noticeable. That seems to me like that would be the. The least of the three. That's the most pronounced bite mark of all. Because the biter used violent pressure to bite down.
- [25:20]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah, it should be obvious. Oh, my God. And holy crap, for the love of God, what was this person doing?
- [25:30]
Jerry
Yeah, for sure. There's also some. Some other things that the biter can do during the biting. If they, you know, if they, like, use their jaw a bunch, it's not just like one bite where they clamp down. If they bite in succession a few times, that was going to leave a totally different mark from one that is going to where they just clamp their jaw down or something. If they move their tongue, it will move the skin around and will affect the bite mark that's left behind. We should have probably given like a heads up at the outside of this episode, huh?
- [26:06]
Chuck Bryant
Well, I think Forensic Dentistry is a creepy enough title. Or maybe I'll title it Forensic dentistry colon, enter at your own risk or something like that.
- [26:14]
Jerry
Oh, good one. And then there's another one too, if the victim is being. Is still, which to me means dead, because nobody's going to sit still while they're being bitten hard enough to leave a bite mark that could be used against you in court. But if they're moving, that's going to affect the bite mark that's left behind too. And then of course, also the kind of tooth profile they have too, right?
- [26:38]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah, for sure. I mean, if I would have bitten somebody in a violent episode when I had my front tooth or my two front teeth missing, it would be pretty obvious when you saw that bite mark. Ted Bundy, like you said, had crooked teeth. And so that will leave a crooked impression. Obviously you need chips on your teeth are gonna make a more sort of jagged impression.
- [27:01]
Jerry
Yeah. Like if you ate a bunch of chips and they're just stuck between your teeth.
- [27:04]
Chuck Bryant
Oh, God.
- [27:06]
Jerry
Is that what you meant?
- [27:08]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah. Okay, here's an earlobe and some Dorito. So let's put that in an evidence baggie.
- [27:14]
Jerry
You're welcome. Dorito for the plug and then braces.
- [27:18]
Chuck Bryant
You know, if you got braces or implants or something, or a bridge, that can leave a pretty distinctive impression for sure, once. And this is sort of how it used to work. But once they identify a subject, they're gonna get a warrant to take a mold of a suspect's teeth so they can compare it. They'll take a lot of pictures of their mouth and stuff opening, closing, biting, stuff like that. And then in the old days, they would go to court and compare those, and a forensic dentist would take the stand and say, hey, that bite mark looks like that person's mouth to me. Jury that can be a major reason why you convict.
- [27:58]
Jerry
In some cases, they would say things like, with a hundred percent certainty.
- [28:03]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah.
- [28:03]
Jerry
Another thing that they say, too, that we'll find that seems to not be at all true is that each person's arrangement and teeth, like your mouth, everything inside your mouth is totally unique, like your fingerprints. And that apparently is not true at all, but you'll find it all over the Internet as fact.
- [28:23]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah, I mean, there are some professional dentists and forensic dentists that still believe that. I mean, that thing I sent you was from last year and is on the National Institutes of Health US Government website. And those four accredited dentists, dental experts flat out say like, a person's bite mark is unique, like DNA or fingerprints. When. And I guess we should probably take a break and get into the studies and stuff like that, but it seems like study after study has kind of confirmed that it's just not the case.
- [28:56]
Jerry
Yeah, well, let's take that break and we'll come back and we'll talk about all the controversy surrounding bite mark analysis as a part of forensic odontology.
- [29:04]
Chuck Bryant
Man, that's a mouthful.
- [29:13]
Advertiser
Foreign.
- [29:19]
Chuck Bryant
We'Re brought to you today by the Capital One Quicksilver card. Earn unlimited 1.5% cash back on every purchase everywhere. Plus, there's no limit to the amount of cash back you can earn. And rewards don't expire for the life of the account. It's that Simple. The Capital One Quicksilver Card. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. C Capital One.
- [29:41]
Advertiser
For details, head over to NFLShop.com for the largest collection of officially licensed gear from all your favorite brands. NFL Shop is your ultimate gifting destination for jerseys, T shirts, headwear and more. Take your game day style to the next level with the best selection of NFL gear anywhere. Show off your team pride this holiday season with styles fit for the whole family. To shop now go to NFLShop.com Congratulations.
- [30:13]
To the University of Miami Miller School of Medicine for the first ever Malcolm Gladwell Tipping Point designation at this year's Unconventional awards by T Mobile for Business. The University used integrated IoT devices and 5G solutions from T Mobile to enable multiple synchronized health monitors allowing for real time remote data collection and analysis. The initiative will shape patient care moving forward and for that, T Mobile congratulates the University of Miami Miller School of Medicine.
- [30:59]
Chuck Bryant
All right, so you did some extra digging and you know, it was pretty clear from doing the research that this is basically known as junk science. Now to most people, despite those four people who wrote the article on the National Institutes of Health.
- [31:13]
Jerry
Right.
- [31:15]
Chuck Bryant
But there was a review in 2022 and a report from the NIST. What does that stand for?
- [31:23]
Jerry
The National Institute of Standards and Technology. They're like a federal agency if I'm not mistaken.
- [31:29]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah. Okay. So they released this report that said. And there were previous reports that we'll talk about too, I guess, but this is the most recent that said bite mark analysis is not real science and it's based on these three sort of faulty premises. One which you already mentioned, which is that a person's dental pattern is unique to that person. And you know, there haven't been any studies that really confirm this. There was a 2013 study from the United Arab Emirates that found, and I think there's. Is that sort of a dental capital of the world? Because I saw a lot of dentists from like Saudi Arabia and uae.
- [32:11]
Jerry
Yeah, no, I didn't know that. I didn't see that.
- [32:12]
Chuck Bryant
Maybe I have a hunch that that's the case. So maybe someone will confirm or deny that. But that study found that 51% of the 2,000 dental charts that they examined were unique. One more than half. And the rest were identical to at least one other. The only thing I'll say in defense is that it may not be truly unique, but if 49% are unique, then that's unique enough to talk about, maybe not to be used in court, but enough to talk about.
- [32:46]
Jerry
Yeah, yeah.
- [32:47]
Chuck Bryant
In my opinion.
- [32:48]
Jerry
Yeah, for sure. But the, the fact is that study, and we should also caveat that with the fact that this study used dental charts only and they made sure that they were highly high quality dental charts that they examined. But the fact that they were able to find dental charts that were identical between two people totally undermines the. The idea that everybody's mouth is unique, everybody's teeth arrangement is unique.
- [33:17]
Chuck Bryant
It seems like about half of them are, if you go by the data here.
- [33:21]
Jerry
Yeah. And this was 2,000 dental charts. They didn't choose like three. Like, this was a pretty decent, high quality study. And yeah, I think it totally undermines that. But like you said. Yes. There's also enough uniqueness that you can kind of use this. And I think, like you said, nobody's really saying, like, stop doing bite mark analysis entirely.
- [33:43]
Chuck Bryant
Right.
- [33:43]
Jerry
The. And actually in their defense, the American Board of Forensic Odontology says they basically admit, like, hey, we made some mistakes in the past, we've cleaned up our act, we've revised our guidelines, and now if you're a legitimate forensic odontologist, the furthest you will go is to make three different calls. One, exclude, meaning that this person's teeth could not have possibly made the bite mark that you're showing me. Cops.
- [34:15]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah.
- [34:16]
Jerry
Not exclude, which is only saying it's possible. I'm not going to go any further than that. But their teeth resemble enough this bite mark pattern, this bite pattern, that it's possible that this person made it and then inconclusive. And that's as far as they're supposed to go. They're not supposed to. In that sense. They're not. I guess you could testify those three things. But if the prosecutor is like, okay, so, so not exclude, you're saying it's his right there. They're supposed to bail essentially at that point. They're not supposed to go any further than that. That's the standard in the guidelines for forensic dentists doing bite analysis. Bite mark analysis today. But there's still plenty of people out there who are going beyond that.
- [34:59]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah. And you know, that's the kind of situation too where you also have to really educate a jury over like the data on what that really means, you know what I'm saying? And say, like, hey, half the time these aren't unique. So you have to understand that going in. So, you know, that was the first thing. And you know, there was that one case that you sent where. And this kind of factors into number two, number one was that they're unique. Number two is that the patterns can be accurately transferred to the human skin. Because we've already talked about the fact that there can be a lot of distortion by skin's elasticity. And if the person sort of does a sawing motion, it completely distort the bite mark. But you sent that one case of the guy who was convicted, who was missing a tooth entirely, which should show a pretty clear, like, hey, we can exclude this one because the bite mark didn't have a gap. But they were like, yeah, but if he grinded his teeth and kind of did a sawing motion, it could look like this. And he was found guilty, you know, and he was not guilty.
- [36:05]
Jerry
Yeah, he was sentenced to jail, I think. Was that Roy Brown?
- [36:09]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah, in 2007.
- [36:10]
Jerry
Okay. So, yeah, he spent almost 20 years in jail, 15 years from 92 to 2007. Largely based on that bite mark analysis testimony.
- [36:22]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah. And both forensic dentists that worked on that case recanted their testimony, like, completely.
- [36:29]
Jerry
Yeah, that was a big one, too. I think maybe in one of those cases where they were appealing it. I don't know if it was Roy Brown's, but there have been plenty of forensic odontologists who have gone back and been like, what I was saying apparently is not right or grounded in science. I recant my testimony, and at least one judge that I read was like, well, we didn't really need you. The jury could have come to the same conclusion, that the bite mark matched their teeth. So I'm not going to overturn this case, which is nuts in and of itself, but Roy Brown is far from the only person who has been exonerated after being convicted on bite mark analysis, too. Right. Like, haven't there been, like, at least 26 people?
- [37:10]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah, at least 26. That DNA evidence is now cleared where bite mark analysis was, if not the smoking gun, like a pretty key part of the jury's, you know, findings.
- [37:20]
Jerry
Yeah. Remember when I was saying some expert witnesses on the stand say, like this, it's 100% match. That happened to a guy named Roy Crone. He did 10 years based on bite mark analysis. Because you got to understand, if you're a juror and the prosecution is saying, like, this person is an expert in forensic odontology, and that expert tells you, the jurors, there is 100% match between that man's teeth and this bite mark on this murder victim, it's going to be tough to overlook that for the average juror, I would guess.
- [37:52]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah, for sure. And, you know, the big change that you were talking about with just excluding that came about in 2016. We've mentioned some other studies. There was one we didn't mention in 2009 when the National Academy of Sciences released a report about a lot of problems with a lot of forensic science. But One of those was bite mark analysis. And they basically said, and this was in 2009, and it still took till 2016 to make that change official, was they said, there's no scientific studies that support the assertion that bite marks provide sufficient detail for positive identification. And then a few years after that, doctors from the American Board of Forensic Odontology, like we said, that's sort of the main body, or is the main body. Participants in a study there of certified dentists, overwhelming number of them, couldn't even agree whether they were looking at a bite mark at all.
- [38:47]
Jerry
Yeah, There was another thing, too, I think, from that same study where they took the same experts and went back to them eight weeks with the exact same photos they'd shown them eight weeks before. And some of those experts didn't even agree with their previous assessments.
- [39:00]
Chuck Bryant
Wow.
- [39:01]
Jerry
Yeah. So that was. And they weren't like, hey, you said this before. What do you think now? It was like they. I think they thought that this is a new set of bite marks, and they were just basically guessing is what they found. So it's been pretty thoroughly debunked, but people still use it. The Innocence Project has really taken an interest in this, and I think rightfully so. We did an episode on that with guests. All is on, if I remember correctly. And, yeah, so they're a group that go around and basically free people who are railroaded or wrongfully convicted, usually based on DNA evidence that wasn't heard in their case. And so one of the things that they've done is take an interest in bite mark analysis. And one of the roles they play now is, I don't know how they keep their finger on the pulse, but if a prosecutor, which is very rare these days, from what I understand, tries to introduce bite mark analysis into a case, the Innocence Project will show up and be like, we object to that. This is not science. This should not be admitted. And I think they're fairly successful.
- [40:05]
Chuck Bryant
They throw tomatoes at them, for sure. There was another case. You found a pretty striking one, a guy named John Kunko. He was convicted of rape and assault in 1991. And the main evidence that got him convicted was identification of his voice by the victim, a comment he supposedly made at a party, and then bite mark on the victim's shoulder. All the evidence was a problem. The comment, the party that he supposedly made was not corroborated by. I always have trouble with that word. It's a hard word, corroborated by any other people at the party. The voice ID was made from a Police officer's imitation of Kunko and his lisp to the victim. So I have no idea how that got through. And then I believe the bite mark was infrared light analysis of a bite mark that had already healed.
- [41:03]
Jerry
This is a big one. So there is a forensic odontologist from Mississippi named Michael west, and he essentially just change careers to be an expert witness in forensic odontology. That's how he made his living. And he came up with a technique called the west phenomenon, wherein you can, according to him, using some special goggles and a UV light, you can basically resurrect a bite mark that's healed years later and see it well enough that you can compare it to a suspect's bite and use it to convict. He totally made it up. Apparently, at least in the first case that he used it on. He took photographs, but he wouldn't share them with anybody. So it was just his testimony that this person was convicted on, and it became a tool of the trade. So other people, including John Kunko, were convicted in part because of this west phenomenon, which is part of overall junk forensic science. So this was the junkiest of the junk that people were being convicted on.
- [42:04]
Chuck Bryant
Did he also sell the special goggles on his website?
- [42:07]
Jerry
Yeah, but he sold them as X ray goggles that you could look right through people's clothes with.
- [42:14]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah, it was a picture of him with his. Looking at his hand and the bones.
- [42:18]
Jerry
Yeah. With exclamation points coming off of his head.
- [42:21]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, this is. Everything changed in 2016. One of the big things that happened, I think there was a case in Texas. A guy named Steven Chaney was released by the Texas Court of Appeals. And this is the Texas Court of Appeals. They're not big on releasing convicted criminals.
- [42:40]
Jerry
I noted that, too.
- [42:42]
Chuck Bryant
But the Texas Forensic Science Commission in 2016, because of this kind of fraudulent bite mark evidence in Stephen Cheney's case, they were like, we need to stop this. And I think that was kind of a big case that kind of really jump started the whole. We maybe not scrap the whole thing, but where they ended up, which is it can exclude, but it can't positively identify.
- [43:02]
Jerry
Yeah, you just use it to exclude. That's what most people can agree on for bite mark analysis is as far as they'll go. Yeah. Chuck, did I ever tell you about Paul Revere in forensic odontology?
- [43:16]
Chuck Bryant
No. But, hey, it's a good little historical cherry on top, right?
- [43:20]
Jerry
Yeah. So Paul Revere, in addition to being a blacksmith, he was a dentist, too, and one of the things he did. He was one of the first forensic odontologists who used dental records based on his own knowledge, too. He made, you know, dental work for a lot of people in the Revolutionary War. And he identified some of Those people, including Dr. Joseph Warren, the man who sent him on his fateful ride, where he shouted, the British are coming. The British are coming.
- [43:47]
Chuck Bryant
Bing. Pow.
- [43:48]
Jerry
Yeah. Pretty amazing, huh?
- [43:50]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah. That's a good one.
- [43:51]
Jerry
Thanks. I think that's it for forensic odontology, right?
- [43:56]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah. And, man, that may be it for our long, long running forensic suite. I can't believe that there could be anything else. But I also said that last time.
- [44:05]
Jerry
Yeah, I disagree. But, yes, we'll find out. You think I'm going to go find something?
- [44:10]
Chuck Bryant
Maybe. I mean, someone will write in and be like, guys, you've covered crime scene cleanup, blood spatter analysis, fingerprinting, DNA. I mean, the list goes on and on.
- [44:17]
Jerry
Yeah, you forgot forensic foot smelling, but you have to go do that one.
- [44:21]
Chuck Bryant
But I didn't know about. That's it. It was the dog. I smell Fritos.
- [44:25]
Jerry
Right? Nice. Oh, actually, I can do this old school, too, because if you want to know more about forensic dentistry, you can go check out a How Stuff Works article that we used in part for this episode. That is kicking it old school, isn't it?
- [44:38]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah. One of the rare articles that we didn't cover that is still good for us.
- [44:42]
Jerry
Yeah. And since I kicked it old school, then it's time for listener mail.
- [44:48]
Chuck Bryant
All right, I'm going to call this another ADHD follow up. This is a. This is a good one. Hey, guys. I had to write in after the ADHD episode. During the first episode, I had to pull over into a parking lot because, honestly, guys, I started crying.
- [45:02]
Jerry
Oh, wow.
- [45:03]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah. I have adhd and I have never had my life explained on a podcast before. Everyone's experiences are different, for sure, and I think you did an incredible job explaining the base challenges. I also appreciated Chuck's hesitancy to call it a disorder. It is defined as a disorder, but. So there's nothing wrong medically with calling it one, but it does hurt just a little. Even as an adult, when people call it a disorder without thinking about the person who has it. I appreciated the optimism with which you both spoke about the challenges and how they can be managed, especially Josh. The only thing I would add to that is the subtopic would be to find people who accept you before they try and change you. When I feel that people love and accept me as me, I am far more willing to accept their help with managing my adhd. Don't approach someone like you're gonna fix them. Approach them because you love them and they will receive your honest offer to assist.
- [46:00]
Jerry
Man, that is some good ADHD advice.
- [46:02]
Chuck Bryant
Right there and just good life advice. Your podcast reminded me that there are a lot of people out there like me and I hope that a lot of people out there who are trying to take this particular challenge do amazingly positive things with it. And that is from Steve.
- [46:16]
Jerry
Thanks a lot Steve. What a great email.
- [46:18]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah, appreciate it Steve that those episodes were a big deal for us for a lot of reasons and it seems like people responded so we're proud of them for sure.
- [46:29]
Jerry
If you want to be like Steve and tell us that you had to pull over because you were so overcome by something we did or said, we love that kind of thing. Especially if it was positive, not because it was so terrible that you had to pull over. But even if that was the case, you can still email us either way, send it off to stuffpodcastheartradio.com.
- [46:50]
Josh Clark
Stuff youf Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Once upon a time, Amazon Music met.
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Chuck Bryant
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Chuck Bryant
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