How Boycotts Work (Or Do They?)

Summary

Stuff You Should Know: How Boycotts Work (Or Do They?)
Hosted by Josh Clark and Chuck Bryant | Released on July 22, 2025

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Introduction: The Modern Dilemma of Boycotts

In this illuminating episode, hosts Josh Clark and Chuck Bryant delve into the intricate world of boycotts, questioning their effectiveness and exploring their evolution in the digital age. They express concern over the frequency and impulsiveness of modern boycotts, largely driven by social media trends.

Josh Clark [03:10]: "If you really followed every boycott like you would starve to death. There'd be nowhere you could buy food any longer, let alone anything else."

The Origins of Boycotts: Charles Boycott and County Mayo

The term "boycott" finds its roots in the actions against Charles Boycott, an English land agent in County Mayo, Ireland, in 1879. Facing relentless harassment from the tenant farmers organized by the Land League, Boycott's refusal to evict tenants led to a collective effort to ruin his livelihood, giving birth to the term.

Chuck Bryant [04:36]: "He was an Englishman living in Ireland and County Mayo, and he was a rent collector... the Irish people decided to do something about it."

Historical Successes: American Colonial and Civil Rights Movements

Boycott strategies have historically been pivotal in significant social and political movements:

• American Colonial Boycotts: In response to the Stamp Act of 1765 and the Townshend Revenue Act of 1767, American colonists organized non-importation agreements, leading to the eventual repeal of these oppressive taxes.

  Chuck Bryant [16:38]: "The first boycott we're going to talk about is 1765. The Stamp Act... Parliament repealed the Stamp Act about a year later."

• Montgomery Bus Boycott: One of the most iconic boycotts in history, lasting 382 days, it successfully challenged and dismantled bus segregation laws, culminating in a Supreme Court ruling.

  Josh Clark [21:40]: "If your boycott leads to a Supreme Court ruling that what you're fighting against is unconstitutional, that is a successful boycott."

• United Farm Workers and Cesar Chavez: The grape boycott raised awareness and improved working conditions for grape harvesters through strategic public education and widespread support.

International Boycotts: The Fight Against Apartheid

The global struggle against South African apartheid showcases the power of sustained international boycotts:

• Sports and Cultural Boycotts: Organizations like the International Table Tennis Federation and the International Olympic Committee banned South African teams, isolating the nation economically and culturally.

  Chuck Bryant [24:36]: "The IOC committee said, no South African teams can participate in the Olympics. And that was a ban that lasted from '64 to '92."

• Music and Celebrity Influence: The "Artists United Against Apartheid" movement, spearheaded by Stevie Van Zant and others, used music to amplify the boycott's message, raising both funds and awareness.

  Chuck Bryant [27:20]: "They ended up raising like a million bucks, so not a lot of money. But awareness was probably one of the biggest things."

Modern Boycotts in the Social Media Era: Successes and Failures

Josh and Chuck explore how social media has transformed boycotts, making them more immediate but sometimes less effective:

• Goya Boycott: Initiated by Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's support for then-President Trump, the boycott backfired as it triggered a counter-boycott, resulting in a temporary 22% sales bump for Goya. However, this surge was unsustainable, and sales eventually normalized.

  Chuck Bryant [38:07]: "Goya got a 22% bump in sales because of that Buycott. But it did not last long because... they were already buying them."

• Nike and Colin Kaepernick: Nike's support for Kaepernick led to a significant increase in sales, demonstrating that taking a stand can rally support and boost a brand when aligned with consumer values.

  Josh Clark [40:00]: "There was a huge backlash... but it spurred a boycott to support Nike, and Nike made out like bandits with an additional $6 billion in sales."

• Bud Light and Dylan Mulvaney: A controversial marketing campaign featuring transgender influencer Dylan Mulvaney resulted in a steep 32% drop in sales over eight months, highlighting the risks of polarizing stances.

  Chuck Bryant [42:03]: "Bud Light sales went down 28% compared to the same period in prior years... ultimately, they were down 32% overall in sales."

Analysis: The Anatomy of an Effective Boycott

The hosts outline critical factors that determine a boycott's success:

1. Clear Goals and Narrow Targets: Successful boycotts focus on specific issues or entities to maximize impact.
2. Awareness and Education: Spreading knowledge about the boycott's purpose galvanizes public support.
3. Reaching Core Customers: Targeting the entity's primary consumer base ensures financial pressure.
4. Substitutability: Offering easy alternatives allows participants to switch without inconvenience.
5. Financial Impact: Ensuring the boycott affects the company's revenue is crucial.
6. Observability: Visible participation enhances the movement's legitimacy and pressure.

Josh Clark [49:43]: "Egregiousness, efficacy, self-enhancement, and estimated participation of others are key motivators for boycott participation."

Conclusion: The Dual-Edged Sword of Modern Boycotts

While boycotts remain a powerful tool for social and political change, their effectiveness in the digital age is mixed. Social media's rapid dissemination can both amplify and dilute boycott efforts, sometimes leading to fleeting trends rather than sustained action. Additionally, the emergence of counter-boycotts can undermine original intents, as seen with Goya and Nike.

Advice to Companies:

• Authenticity: Companies should take genuine stances aligned with their core values rather than opportunistic or reactive measures.
• Consistency: Maintaining consistent positions avoids alienating parts of their customer base.
• Transparency: Clear communication about values and actions fosters trust and support.

Advice to Individuals:

• Focus and Commitment: Effective boycotts require sustained effort and dedication beyond initial social media engagement.
• Informed Participation: Understanding the broader impact and strategies of boycotts ensures meaningful contributions to change.

Josh Clark [47:54]: "Do you want to take a break and come back and talk about whether social media boycotts are effective?"

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Notable Quotes

• Josh Clark [03:10]: "If you really followed every boycott like you would starve to death. There'd be nowhere you could buy food any longer, let alone anything else."
• Chuck Bryant [04:36]: "He was an Englishman living in Ireland and County Mayo, and he was a rent collector... the Irish people decided to do something about it."
• Chuck Bryant [38:07]: "Goya got a 22% bump in sales because of that Buycott. But it did not last long because... they were already buying them."
• Josh Clark [40:00]: "There was a huge backlash... but it spurred a boycott to support Nike, and Nike made out like bandits with an additional $6 billion in sales."

Final Thoughts

Josh and Chuck provide a comprehensive exploration of boycotts, blending historical context with contemporary examples to assess their efficacy. They emphasize the importance of strategic planning, sustained effort, and understanding the dynamics of modern consumer behavior to harness the true power of boycotts as instruments of change.

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Thank you for listening to "Stuff You Should Know." For more insightful episodes, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Bridget Todd]

This is an I Heart Podcast.

[Josh Clark]

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[Chuck Bryant]

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[Josh Clark]

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[Chuck Bryant]

Welcome to Stuff youf Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

[Josh Clark]

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck. And it's just the two of us. And we are doing an episode on boycotts today because, boy, do boycotts really stick in your craw. There's a lot of them. They seem to be overused in this era, and I wanted to see how the whole thing worked just from watching them happen over and over again.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, well, you know, Webster's defines a boycott as a collective act of refusal. Yeah, so does Dave, who helped us with this. But you know what we're talking about, right? That's when people get together these days, usually it's a call on social media or something and they say, hey, we're not going to buy this thing from your store, or we're not going to buy anything from your store, or we're not going to buy anything from your company, or we're not going to buy anything from your state or country because we want to hit your bottom line. Hit you in the wallet, as they say.

[Josh Clark]

To get you to change.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mean, to get you to change. Or I think in some people's cases these days, just to be mean. Because I hate what you stand for.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So I want to say I'm not poo pooing the entire concept of boycotts. What I'm. What I was taking issue with is just how fast and loose they come over and over. That if you really followed every boycott like you would starve to death. There'd be nowhere you could buy food any longer, let alone anything else.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, yeah, and can I quickly say also that these sort of so many calls for these boycotts in social media, they're also, I feel like a lot of times, like just not thought out and that, like you're boycotting this one thing, but the same company owns this other thing that you like. And they just seem to be kind of the dumb version of boycotts.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, they're very knee jerk. They're not very organized, and they're just emotionally driven. All boycotts have some level of emotion to them, driving them. But there's also supposed to be a lot more to them if you're gonna make it successful.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And we're gonna cover all that stuff.

[Josh Clark]

But also one more thing, Chuck. I am also not pooh poohing anybody. Caring about something. That's great. I will always promote somebody caring about something that's important to you.

[Chuck Bryant]

And.

[Josh Clark]

And a lot of people show that they care by joining in on boycotts or maybe even starting boycotts.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I mean, you're known as the guy who cares.

[Josh Clark]

Who's been calling me that?

[Chuck Bryant]

The public at large. I think that's your nickname on Reddit.

[Josh Clark]

The boy who cares. And the best all around boy.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, man, look at that. Match made in heaven.

[Josh Clark]

The Barb, the BHC and the Barb.

[Chuck Bryant]

I love it.

[Josh Clark]

So let's start talking about boycotts because like I said, I was curious in how they worked. We asked David help us with them. And, and what I didn't know right out of the gate is that boycott is somebody's last name. The first guy who ever on record got boycotted was named Charles Cunningham. Boycott.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. That seems like something we would make up as a bit. Yeah, but it's actually totally true. He was an Englishman living in Ireland and County Mayo, and he was a rent collector specifically would collect rent for absentee British landlords from Irish tenant farmers who were having A very rough time in 1879.

[Josh Clark]

Down on their luck, as you'd put it. There was a terrible famine. This is after the great Irish potato famine, but this one wasn't so wonderful either. And so these farmers were not exactly looking forward to being evicted for being behind on rent. And Boycott apparently seems to be one of those people who had, like, you just follow the rules. You're the one who's not paying your rent, so get out. And the Irish people in County Mayo decided to do something about it. They formed an organization called the Land League, and they were agitating for fair rents. They were agitating for an end to evictions. And Charles Boycott just kept evicting people. So they're like, we've got to try something else. What can we do? Let's do everything we can to ruin Charles Boycott's life.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And if there was only a name for this kind of action, they're like.

[Josh Clark]

We'Ll get to that later.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, but we can't think of one. So later, in a letter to the Times of London, Boycott basically kind of summarized what they had been doing. And we're not going to read all this word for word, but, you know, they really screwed with his business. You know, they collected in crowds on his farm. They would harass him at his house. They threatened people that worked for him, like his blacksmith apparently got a letter threatening him with murder if he did any more work for him. They threatened his laundress to stop washing his clothes. And he couldn't get anybody to do any kind of work for him, basically, and ruined his business. It became a big story, like, not just there, but kind of internationally. The British newspapers picked it up. The British newspapers also raised funds to send 50 Northern Irish loyalists to harvest his potato crop, because he couldn't get anyone to do it because they were afraid they'd get, you know, physically beaten or harassed. And they were protected by British troops. And apparently, by one account, it cost £10,000 to harvest £500 worth of potatoes from those Northern Irish loyalists.

[Josh Clark]

I did some conversions.

[Chuck Bryant]

Let's hear it.

[Josh Clark]

So if they spent £10,000 sterling to harvest these potatoes, they spent a million pounds sterling, or $1.4 million in today's money, to harvest £52,000 sterling or $70,000 worth of potatoes. Isn't that insane? That really just drives it home. That's why I do those conversions.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Because I want to drive it home. How nuts.

[Chuck Bryant]

That was totally nuts. He left Ireland, Boycott did, in disgrace. It was a very successful challenge to his authority. Can't call it a boycott yet, but you could very soon. Because American journalist James Redpath said, you know what? The first person who used that as a verb was a local priest, believe it or not, his name was Father o', Malley, who said, I believe he suggested the Land League try the same thing on another landlord named Brown. And he said, let's do what they did to boycott. Let's do a boycott on this Brown. That's what we're going to do. We're going to boycott Brown. See, the word is a verb. It's boycott. You understand?

[Josh Clark]

That was a great Father o'. Malley. Thanks. Yeah. And so just by covering Father o', Malley, using it as a verb, writing about these new boycotts, James Redpath, who appears to have been a contemporary journalist to this time, he kind of helped generate this idea that you could actually get stuff done by boycotting people. Check this out. And so I think in the next year, there were more than 1,000 boycotts in Ireland without social media.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, there were a thousand boycotts. And that means Father o' Malley, a hundred thousand times said, remember, it's called boycotting.

[Josh Clark]

That is so good. We're going to get two emails from people who aren't even Irish that are mad at us for doing that, and then 15 emails from people from Ireland who are like, that was hilarious, Chuck.

[Chuck Bryant]

Totally.

[Josh Clark]

That's how it goes.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And maybe one from Father A. Father o', Malley, because I know there's a bunch of them.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I was going to say that doesn't narrow it down at all.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So, yeah, that's where the. That's where the whole boycott got started in County Mayo, Ireland. And since then, people have studied these things and have really kind of gotten down to almost a science, what it would take to make a boycott effective. And there have been a lot of effective boycotts over the years. We're going to talk about some of them. But to just kind of pull apart the nuts and the bolts, there's just a handful of things that you really have to do just right. And then sprinkle it with a little bit of luck and you could have an effective boycott on your hands.

[Chuck Bryant]

I think you meant just a little bit of luck.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. A little bit of leprechaun dust, right?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. For sure. These are the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 things you need to do if you, you know, you can boycott your day away, but if you want to really be effective, these. There are at least, I'd say probably four out of six of these need to be Around.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Six steps to ruining Target's market share.

[Chuck Bryant]

You gotta have a clear goal in mind, which means you have an outcome in mind. Basically, you want a narrow target. So you wanna either target like a very narrow, like a product or just a single company. That's why sometimes when I think about, like, yeah, you're targeting this company, but like the parent company isn't targeted. I don't know. That's where it can get a little messy, I think.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And poor targets, like, can you guys stop using the word target when you're talking about boycotts?

[Chuck Bryant]

There's also awareness in education because your goal here is to not only get them to change whatever they're doing, but to bring awareness and educate people on whatever you feel like they're doing wrong.

[Josh Clark]

Well, plus also, the more support you have, the better off you are.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, yeah, good point.

[Josh Clark]

You also want to reach core customers. This is a very important point.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

They turned up an expert in boycotts and studying boycotts who said, essentially, if you have a bunch of PETA members who are boycotting Kentucky Fried Chicken, like, that's not going to have much of an effect because none of those PETA members were ever buying Kentucky Fried Chicken in the first place. And yeah, maybe you could generate some public sympathy, but you're not getting to their core customers necessarily.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And that's what makes it effective. What else?

[Chuck Bryant]

There's sustain, there's substitutability. This is a big one because if you can very easily switch to another brand of whatever, then it's going to make your boycott far more effective. Like if. And you know, we'll get to other examples later, but like, you know, with the big Bud Light boycott was a very big one we're going to cover later. It was really easy for the people who wanted to boycott Bud Light to switch to another, like, inexpensive light beer. So that, that was a pretty effective boycott because it's like super easy. Yeah, I'll just drink Miller Light or whatever.

[Josh Clark]

Right. Or I'll go to churches or Popeyes rather than Kentucky Fried Chicken.

[Chuck Bryant]

Exactly.

[Josh Clark]

And then also, like, if you want a, a successful boycott, you have to really, like, nail in that. That bottom line, you really gotta hurt the company financially if you want to make them at least start listening to you, if not actually enact the change that you're looking for. And you know, in times past, essentially pre social media era, that was the one measure of boycotts. That is how you got a company to respond. You started really affecting either their sales or their stock price more often than not their stock price. Nowadays, because of social media, bad press can spread so fast and so far and so wide that just getting like negative press can actually make large corporations or organizations change their stance on something or make them drop their stance in total.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. That's a very good point. It's a little bit different ballgame these days. Should we take our break?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, we'll take a break. We'll be right back to as promised Talk about some of the most famous boycotts throughout history.

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[Bridget Todd]

Welcome to Pretty Private with ebony, the podcast where silence is broken and stuck stories are set free. I'm Ebony and every Tuesday I'll be sharing all new anonymous stories that would challenge your perceptions and give you new insight on the people around you. On Pretty Private, we'll explore the untold experiences of women of color who faced it all. Childhood trauma, addiction, abuse, incarceration, grief, mental health struggles and more. And found the shrimp to make it to the other side. My dad was shot and killed in his house. Yes, he was a drug dealer. Yes, he was a confidential informant. But he wasn't shot on street corner. He wasn't shot in the middle of a drug deal. He was shot in his house unarmed. Pretty Private isn't just a podcast. It's your personal guide for turning storylines into lifelines. Every Tuesday, make sure you listen to Pretty Private from the Black Effect Podcast Network. Tune in on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. I'm Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford and in session 421 of Therapy for Black Girls. I sit down with Dr. Afia and Billy Shaka to explore how our hair connects to our identity, mental health and the ways we heal. Because I think hair is a complex language system, right. In terms of it can tell how old you are, your marital status, where you're from, your spiritual belief. But I think with social media there's like a hyper fixation and observation of our hair. Right. That this is sometimes the first thing someone sees when we make a post or a reel. It's how our hair is styled. We talk about the important role hairstylists play in our community, the pressure to always look put together and how breaking up with perfection can actually free us. Plus, if you're someone who gets anxious about flying, don't miss session 418 with Dr. Angela Neal Barnett, where we dive into managing flight anxiety. Listen to Therapy for black Girls on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your pod.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, we're back and as promised, we're going to take you on a little walk through the history of boycotts. And we got to start with colonial era because they were good at it. A lot of times they were boycotting an act that was passed by the British that they did not like over here in the new colonies. They had some pretty wicked branding with slogans like no taxation without representation. They were pretty good at that kind of thing. And the first one we're going to talk about is 1765. I know we've talked about all these kind of here and there in the life of the show, but the Stamp act was passed in 65, which was a tax on paper goods and documents and things like that. And the merchants in Boston and New York said, nope, we're going to sign a non importation agreement and we're not going to import goods from England anymore. And it worked. About a year later, Parliament repealed the Stamp Act.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, first. First boycott and the. We should say the American colonies. It could see our Australian and New Zealand listeners. I don't remember any of this what you're talking about.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, lots of colonies.

[Josh Clark]

This happened in the American colonies, right?

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right.

[Josh Clark]

Shortly after that. So Parliament's trying to. To pay for the Seven Years War. The French Indian War is what the American colonists called it. So they were now directly taxing the American colonies. And they followed up with the Stamp act with the Townshend Revenue act in 1767. It text a bunch of different stuff. The colonists organized a bunch of protests and boycotts again. And Parliament responded and they repealed the Townshend act three years later. But they kept one part of it. They kept a tax on tea. Everyone loved tea in the American colonies, as I'm sure in Australia and New Zealand too at the time. So it was a big deal to have this big tax on tea. And so the American colonists said, well, we're not going to drink British tea. And Parliament said, oh yeah, we'll get this. We're going to give the East India Company basically free rein on selling below cost for tea. So that even with this tax, it's going to cost you less for tea than buying the smuggled illegal tea that, that normally is cheaper with the tax. Right. So some merchants were like, well, it sounds kind of good to me. I can make more money. And the people here in the American colonies we call the patriots, the Founding Fathers said nay to that. And that actually led to the Boston Tea Party.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, the Sons of Liberty said, no thanks, we're going to dump your tea in the hava.

[Josh Clark]

Wow, man, you are killing it today. All over the place.

[Chuck Bryant]

And that's what they did. In 1774, the First Continental Congress passed a colony wide ban on all trade with Britain. And that was the beginning of what would become a war.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it worked then, it worked later. And I mean, they didn't have a name for this because this was before the County Mayo boycotts and Charles Boycott. But they were like this unnamed thing that we're doing. It really kind of works. And so it inspired other groups that came along in America over the course of the coming centuries. Especially if you were part of a civil rights organization, boycotts prove very effective. They are really worthwhile to do because most of the time, if you're agitating for civil rights, you have a, a group of true believers who are willing to actually work at this. And one of the first groups fighting for civil rights in the United States were the Quakers, Quaker abolitionists. And they formed something called the Free Produce Movement.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, this was in the 1840s through the Civil War basically. And they boycotted goods made by enslaved people, cotton of course, being one of the keys there. And as far as they were concerned, like, hey, if you're, if you're buying this stuff, you're supporting slavery. So the Free Produce Movement sort of tackled that. Another obvious example, as far as civil rights go, is the great Montgomery Bus Boycott, which we covered in detail in our episode from February 2018, Rosa Parks Cohen, Agent of Change. So you can go listen to that episode for the the full rundown of the Montgomery bus boycott. But that was a couple of highlights for me was the fact that before Rosa Parks came along, I always want a chance to shout out 15 year old Claudette Colvin, who in March 1955 refused to move so a white passenger could take her seat. She was also yanked off the bus and arrested by the cops. But they would end up rallying around Rosa Parks instead about nine months later. And then the other thing I just wanted to highlight, and again, you should listen to that episode because it's really in depth, but was that the black community rallied around each other in like a big way. Like black taxi drivers would charge the same fare as the bus fare would be. They had volunteers organizing carpools, they had shoe drives because people were walking so much they were wearing their shoes out to like get people in fresh shoes. And it's a really beautiful moment in American history.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And it was a real struggle for them because this is how black people in Montgomery largely got around was the bus. So to give that up was a big deal. And it was a successful boycott. It lasted 382 days until the Supreme Court ruled that segregation on buses was unconstitutional. If your boycott leads to a Supreme Court ruling that what you're fighting against is unconstitutional, that is a successful boycott.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure.

[Josh Clark]

And then one other thing about the Montgomery bus boycott is that it directly inspired another boycott a few years later that involved the United Farm Workers. Grape growers or grape harvesters, I should say, that was led by Cesar Chavez. And I mean he, he, one of the things that he did that also makes boycott successful that we talked about was educating the public. They created bumper stickers that said UWAS no no grapes. They told people what was going on and they got public support. That really helped. These boycotts really helped put the pressure on the grape growers to give the grape harvesters better working conditions.

[Chuck Bryant]

Can we talk about apartheid?

[Josh Clark]

I think we should.

[Chuck Bryant]

So apartheid was a, was segregation in South Africa. It was their version of legal segregation of their people, of the white minority and the black majority in South Africa. And it was around since 1948 through basically the mid-90s to when it finally dissolved, I think was like 94. And the repeal of apartheid is partially credited to international pressure, boycotts, sanctions, divestment.

[Josh Clark]

And little Stevie Van Zant.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, and little Stevie Van Zant. We'll get to him in a sec. But the nonviolent protests were a big part of it. Led by the African National Congress. Nelson Mandela was one of the leaders in the ANC so in 1959, ANC president Albert Luthuli said, hey, Great Britain, why don't you boycott all South American produce? All South African produce? The first time they kind of reached out internationally for help like that. And so South Africa said, you know what? We're outlawing the ANC and Nelson Mandela, you're going to jail.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. For suggesting a boycott. Not even staging a boycott, but Suggesting 1. The UN got involved in 1962, and they were like, hey, guys, this is not okay. We all, you or you guys need to start breaking ties with South Africa. And everybody said, nuts to that. And it took a bunch of different sports organizations to finally get the public aware of it, and hence getting governments involved in doing something about dismantling apartheid by turning their backs on South Africa. And the first sports organization to cut ties without South Africa in protest of its apartheid policies was the International Table Tennis Federation, who did so all the way back in 1956.

[Chuck Bryant]

Pretty great. I love that. In 64, the IOC committee said, no South African teams can participate in the Olympics. And that was a ban that lasted from 64 to 92. So very long standing. There were boycotts in Britain when South African cricket and rugby teams would tour there.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, there was a very famous battle for Swansea, I think, where there was like a rugby protest that the cops and some hooligans started beating up. And it just became a huge thing. And made international news, too.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I mean, I remember all this stuff growing up in the 80s. It was all over the news. You couldn't like. You couldn't like, go 10 minutes without hearing the word apartheid or anti apartheid.

[Josh Clark]

I mean, I knew the president of South Africa's name as like a 10 year old because what was it? FW de Klerk?

[Chuck Bryant]

No. You're like, I knew it at 10. I don't know.

[Josh Clark]

No, I'm almost positive that's who it was.

[Chuck Bryant]

I remember De Klerk.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I learned about it from Mad magazine.

[Chuck Bryant]

Of course, the 80s is also when you got college kids involved. And that if you want to get college kids on your side, that's a pretty smart thing to do, because they got nothing else to do except take a couple of classes a day maybe. And so they got together, started their activism on campus, and more than 150 US colleges divested from South Africa. So they withdrew investments in South African companies as institutions, as a whole. There was a UN cultural boycott. And part of that ended up being something that started in 85 called the artists United Against Apartheid, founded by little Stephen Van Zant of the E Street Band and a producer named Arthur Baker, who organized a song, Sun City and an album, Sun City. Because Sun City was a luxury resort and casino in South Africa that had a lot of big time concerts. And the song basically was I ain't gonna play Sun City. And it was a. You know, it was sort of on the heels of We Are the World. But this one was different because they, you know, there were certainly black artists on We Are the World, but not rap and hip hop. And Sun City had Bono, of course, and Bob Dylan and Ringo and Bruce, of course, Pat Benatar, George Clinton, Joey Ramone in a very weird appearance. Hall and Oates, but not together. They were very much separated.

[Josh Clark]

That is so sad to me.

[Chuck Bryant]

Lou Reed also had a very funny appearance. Bonnie Raitt. But you also had Run DMC and Cool Modee, the Fat Boys, dj, Kool Herc, Grandmaster Melly Mel, Jimmy Cliff was in there. So it really blended genres in a way that We Are the World did not. And it was a pretty good song. I think it is very 80s.

[Josh Clark]

It's definitely worth seeing the video for. Sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, it's pretty cool. I think they ended up raising like a million bucks, so not a lot of money. But awareness was probably one of the biggest things. Because a lot of artists would not play Sun City. But artists did very famously. There's a list. The Beach Boys did, Cher did, Linda Ronstadt did. Sinatra did. Liza Minnelli, Rod Stewart. Very disappointingly, Elton John, Queen and Dolly Parton all played Sun City.

[Josh Clark]

And Dolly. Oh, saying it.

[Chuck Bryant]

So it was fairly heartbreaking to read that.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Because this wasn't like a. Oh, I hadn't heard kind of thing. This was like, I don't care enough. I'm gonna go to Sun City. They're paying me a bunch of money to go to this one concert date that I could easily cancel, you know.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, agreed. Supposedly, I'm not even gonna say in their defense. Cause I don't really know what they were thinking. But supposedly they were told by the people at Sun City, like, hey, there's an exception for us and we can actually have a segregated audience. So, like, you should come play. So I don't know if that's the guys they did it under or not. That's the list.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So, yeah. So this is a big deal. Like sports, entertainment. That's a really good way to get your boycott spread far and wide. Because that's what the average person is paying attention to more than like the news or foreign policy. They're like, wait a minute, why is Cool Modi not going to South Africa? I should probably look into that. And so when you get people into it, things actually happen. Right? There is a. The US Congress passed the Comprehensive Anti Apartheid act. And it was one of the more punitive sanctions packages America has ever dealt against any country. And Ronald Reagan even vetoed it. And Congress overrode his veto. It was the first time in 13 years that Congress had overridden a presidential veto. And they said, no, this is getting passed. And so it did get passed. And you know, you might be like, wow, that was brave and assertive of Congress. They must really have cared about dismantling apartheid. And I'm sure some of them did. But I think what it says more than anything is just how far and wide America was anti apartheid. By this time, that Congress is like, we're going to override a presidential veto of the most popular president America's had in recent history. Because all of our constituents are like, go do that.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, because they read about Cool Modine. Yeah, they wouldn't have it.

[Josh Clark]

Yep.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And you know, a lot of times when the US does something, the world follows back then at least. And once the US put their sanctions in place, other countries came aboard in Europe and Asia, and a lot of economic pressure was put on South Africa. And Mandela was eventually. The Berlin Wall fell in 89, which basically said, South Africa is not like a protection against communism in Africa now. No need for that. Mandela was freed in 90, and then over the next four years, it was kind of little by little dismantled. I think finally in 94 was when it was officially over.

[Josh Clark]

So that was successful, I would say, for sure. There was another one that was pretty successful that was much more recent. Back in 2016 in North Carolina, they passed the Public Facilities Privacy and Security act, much more well known as the bathroom bill, which basically said that in North Carolina you have to use a public restroom for the sex that you were assigned at birth. So essentially it was like trans people. You can't use public restrooms that you identify with. People called it mean spirited evil. It was anti trans. It was an attack on a group of people. And it really. It kind of took off. It became one of the first really viral boycotts on social media back in 2016. It had a huge effect.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And this was one where hitting in the wallet was a big deal because corporations got involved. PayPal canceled plans to build an office in Charlotte. You know, entertainers got involved. Of course, Springsteen, as always, the Boss wouldn't play in Sun City or Greensboro.

[Josh Clark]

Ain'T gonna play Greensboro.

[Chuck Bryant]

And then of course, a lot of other bands said what the boss does, we follow. Movie studios pulled out, which hit them in the financial pocketbook, of course. Said we're not gonna shoot there. Sports again gets involved. The NCAA moved several different college championships out of North Carolina. The NBA threatened to pull the All Star Weekend out of Charlotte.

[Josh Clark]

They followed through too. They moved it to New Orleans that year.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, so all this told cost the state of North Carolina $3.76 billion in the year that that bill was around. They repealed it in 2017.

[Josh Clark]

Man, that's crazy. That's a lot of money to lose in just a year, Chuck.

[Chuck Bryant]

And that's why it was effective.

[Josh Clark]

So you want to take a break and come back and talk about whether social media boycotts are effective?

[Chuck Bryant]

Let's do it.

[Ebony]

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[Bridget Todd]

Welcome to Pretty Private with ebony, the podcast where silence is broken and stories are set free. I'm Ebony and every Tuesday I'll be sharing all new anonymous stories that would challenge your perceptions and give you new insight on the people around you. On Pretty Private, we'll explore the untold experiences of women of color who faced it all. Childhood trauma, addiction, abuse, incarceration, grief, mental health struggles and more. And found the strength to make it to the other side. My dad was shot and killed in his house. Yes, he was a drug dealer. Yes, he was a confidential informant. But he wasn't shot on a street corner. He wasn't shot in the middle of a drug dealer. He was shot in his house. Unarmed. Pretty Private isn't just a Podcast. It's your personal guide for turning storylines into lifelines. Every Tuesday, make sure you listen to Pretty Private from the Black Effect podcast network. Tune in on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. I'm Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, and in session 421 of Therapy for Black Girls, I sit down with Dr. Afia and Billy Shaka to explore how our hair connects to our identity, mental health, and the ways we heal. Because I think hair is a complex language system, right, in terms of it can tell how old you are, your marital status, where you're from, your spiritual beliefs. But I think with social media, there's like a hyper fixation and observation of our hair, right? That this is sometimes the first thing someone sees when we make a post or a reel is how our hair is styled. We talk about the important role hairstylists play in our communities, the pressure to always look put together, and how breaking up with perfection can actually free us. Plus, if you're someone who gets anxious about flying, don't miss session 418 with Dr. Angela Neal Barnett, where we dive into managing flight anxiety. Listen to therapy for black Girls on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Josh Clark]

Okay, so we're back, and we have entered a brand new age of boycotts. Thanks to social media, it is really easy to start a boycott, for a boycott to go viral and then for the news to report on boycotts and how they did. It's almost like a spectator sport to a certain extent. Oh, here's this new boycott. How'd it do? Two months on, I saw an article on Newsweek and the title was, here are the corporations being boycotted in June. It's just become that, like, pedestrian.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I mean, we should read this one stat. There's one study that found that 54% of top brands, more than half have been boycotted, and 42% of multinational corporations. And we're not saying like poor multinational corporations, but just sort of driving home the point. Like you were saying that. I mean, you said, you know, two months later, see how it's doing? Two months later, people might be like, oh, are we boycotting that still?

[Josh Clark]

I thought that was done. I thought we moved on.

[Chuck Bryant]

Which is kind of one of the problems with the social media boycotts.

[Josh Clark]

It is because with social media, I mean, by definition, it's your attention span is just careening from place to place constantly. It's really hard to stop and focus. And that's a big thing that. That Boycotts require is focus, dedication, organization, growth. When, you know, two. Yeah. When three quarters of the people who were boycotting with you the first week moved on to something else, your boycott's hurting. Right. But that is not to say that boycotts starting on social media aren't effective. And there's a couple in very recent memory that you can use to show what's effective and what isn't effective, because that's what people like to do with boycotts these days. Talk about that.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And we should also point out you're going to hear another word in describing these things. It's a word boycott, and that is the counter to boycott. When. Because most of these are political in nature, obviously, hot button issues and evenly sort of divided, because the United States is pretty much evenly divided at this.

[Josh Clark]

Point politically, down to a guiding Eugene, who votes twice for one for each party, just to be fair. That's how divided America is.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. So when there is a boycott, there is also generally a boycott when the other part of the country says, oh, yeah, well, I'm gonna buy that thing, because you don't wanna buy that thing, because we like what they're saying. So Goya is a very popular Hispanic food brand here in the U.S. great. Black beans. I love those Goya black beans.

[Josh Clark]

Y muchas gracias. Goya.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. In 2020, it was big news when the CEO of Goya attended an event at the White House and was praising Donald Trump. And a lot of people got upset about that. And Democratic Representative Alexandria Ocasio Cortez said, hey, we need to boycott Goya. And it turns out that that didn't work so well because it didn't hit enough of those things that you need to do to have a successful boycott.

[Josh Clark]

And also because AOC is a boycott magnet for sure. So there were a couple of things. So there was a. The boycott sparked a boycott among conservatives. Because in. In the United States, for those of you who don't live here, when you choose a side on a boycott, you're. You're defending your political beliefs. That's just how they work here. I'm not sure if it's like that the rest of the world around, but that is definitely how they work here. And the reasons that Goya wasn't successful as a buy or as a boycott was because there were a lot of people, Latin Hispanic households, who did not have a dog in that fight, who did not choose sides, who were not like, what are you talking about? We buy Goya products like this doesn't make any sense. And then a lot of those households also are conservatives too. So they probably would have bought Goya products had they not been buying them already just to show their support. Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

And the Buycott that it triggered, apparently Goya got a 22% bump in sales because of that Buycott. But it did not last long because like you said, a lot of those people who were like, yeah, I'm going to start buying Goya stuff because this guy praised Donald Trump. They weren't Goya customers before. So maybe sometimes you get someone from a Buycott that's like, hey, these black beans are dynamite. That's my brand from now on. But in this case, it was a quick bump in sales and then they were like, nope, back to old El Paso. And the sales kind of leveled out.

[Josh Clark]

Yes. That's actually on the. If you flip flop the political spectrum, the same thing happened in Nike not too many years ago when they supported Colin Kaepernick while he was taking a knee during the national anthem. And there was a huge backlash on social media against Nike for supporting him there. People were burning their Nikes and making videos of it and posting it on social media. But it spurred a boycott to support Nike, and Nike made out like bandits for that. They had what analysts suspect was an additional $6 billion in sales in a handful of weeks following the boycott. The call for the boycott, the boycott gave them that much extra money, the support came out for them like that.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. Then the NFL got back at Colin Kaepernick by essentially blackballing him.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

So we should probably mention Bud Light because we mentioned it earlier. That was another very recent one. In 2023, a transgender influencer, Dylan Mulvaney, had a TikTok video announcing a contest sponsored by Bud Light. And in that video had the nerve to show a can of Bud Light that the company sent her with an image of her face on it. And that was it. The conservative right got up in arms and they said, bud Light is dead to us. Go woke, go broke. And in the three months following that post, Bud Light sales went down 28% compared to the same period in prior years. And the damage was worse in Republican leaning districts, I think 32% compared to 22% in Democrat districts.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. But ultimately, overall, eight months after the. The initial boycott, they were down 32% overall in sales.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. So, I mean, it was a successful boycott by all accounts.

[Josh Clark]

Man, they went berserk about that. It was a big deal here in the US That Bud Light. So just to Be clear, they sent Dylan Mulvaney one can with Dylan Mulvaney's face on it. This was not for sale or anything like that.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, yeah.

[Josh Clark]

But that was all it took. And, yeah, Bud Light just took a big beating. They were the number one selling beer. I don't even think just light beer. I think beer in the United States. And they dropped a disgrace. They dropped down to third in just a few weeks. Right. The reason why? There are a few reasons why. Substitutability. You could easily just switch to Coors Light, Miller's Light, and your taste buds would have no idea that you'd switched. But apparently a lot of people switched to Modelo Especial, which we'll get to in a second. And then also. And this explains why Bud Light did this, because in retrospect, you're like, that was one of the more tone deaf things a brand has ever done. But it turns out Bud Light's customer base is pretty evenly divided along the political spectrum. So I think they just thought, like, they were doing what they do. And we're clearly not expecting that kind of backlash. Companies in that situation are much more vulnerable to a backlash when they take any kind of political stance or social stance.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Like when it's a pretty even split on who likes your product.

[Josh Clark]

Exactly.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Because, I mean, if it were all like, if Bud Light's entire customer base were lgbtq, if they had Dylan Mulvaney be like a brand ambassador, it would not matter at all. But because half of their people probably have unflattering views on trans people. Yes. It really put a hurting on them. And then the last one was observability is what they call it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Sometimes you consume a product in private, like the black beans you're eating right.

[Josh Clark]

Out of the can.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. You're not just walking around eating a can of black beans in public. But other stuff, you know, it's a little more visible and like, you know, tailgating and being out in public with a beer, being in a bar with a beer, it's a much more public product that you're consuming. And researchers found that even if you were liberal and you were a beer drinker, you might have avoided drinking Bud Light in public just because of the controversy over it.

[Josh Clark]

One of the big. There's an ironic twist, I guess, to this whole thing. I said that Modelo Especial became, I think, the number one selling beer after Bud Light dropped off. In the couple weeks after the boycott started against Bud Light, Modelo's sales went up $36 million more than Bud Light sales.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. That's amazing.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So Modelo is like, this is great. The thing is, is Modelo and Bud Light are both owned and distributed by the same companies. So it was like robbing Peter to pay Paul or a Twitter user put it. I think I found this on Vox, maybe in an article by Stephanie Grob Plante. It was like boycotting the Big Mac by eating a Quarter Pounder instead.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And that's kind of like what I was talking about earlier with just. I think boycotts are just not thought through as much these days because, I don't know, there's so many mega companies that own all these smaller things. You really gotta do your homework to figure out, like, wait a minute, I can't switch to this thing because they're also owned by that thing.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I think, though, that one's not the most slam dunk ironic twist there is, because I think even if they knew that it was the same general company, Anheuser Busch, the ire was directed at Bud Light. They wanted to punish Bud Light, the brand specifically, and they were definitely successful with that.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, good point.

[Josh Clark]

So, Chuck, there's a couple of things I think we should wrap it up by talking about, like, whether these things are worth doing, whether companies should take a social stance. Let's do that, shall we?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mean, first of all, we mentioned earlier that it doesn't necessarily have to be the big financial hit to cause a problem these days. Just the bad press and then the negative press can hurt a company's reputation. That could potentially hurt a stock price. But I mean, really, the only thing that's going to damage the stock price are bad sales. So at the end of the day, it kind of is money. They can probably withstand bad press, but they don't love it.

[Josh Clark]

No. But if you can turn the markets on the company, that's a big deal.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. As far as whether people think companies should get involved with this, it depends on who you asked. There was a survey, I think, from 2017. Is that right? Yeah. Not too long ago. It's found that 90% of American consumers expect companies to take an active role in addressing social concerns. There was a different survey that found that 63% of millennials and 60% of Gen Xers think companies have a more important role than governments do in driving social change. So those are pretty disparate numbers.

[Josh Clark]

Right. And people who advise companies, like, there's an entire industry on advising companies on stuff like this, they say it comes down to the company culture do you stand for things? Are you the kind of company that would ever stand for anything? Or are you just trying to sell duck boots? You know, you have to ask yourself these kind of things. Do you want to change to be a different kind of company? Who knows? But one of the things that they find is that it is often worse to take a stand and then change your stance than to take no stance at all. Like Target's wishy washy stance on DEI policies. Right. Or apparently another big one is companies will celebrate Pride Month in a country that's that where Pride Month is much more acceptable than they, and then just not celebrate it in other countries where there is Pride Month, but it's not quite as accepted as it is in the other countries. So having like a wishy washy stance on stuff, that can really damage your company's image. Because if you basically are telling the world, like, we don't really actually have any values. We don't really care about anything social. We're just trying to make money here. So even if you are a company that chooses to take a stance, you really need to stick with it and just stick with it. Ride it out. Or else just don't do it at all. But don't make it take a stand.

[Chuck Bryant]

And then backpedal Josh's advice to corporate America.

[Josh Clark]

Right. And then on the other side, if you're just an everyday person and you want to take part in a boycott, I think one of the issues, Chuck, that we kind of were hinting around throughout this episode is that a problem is that you can become complacent. Like, you're doing enough by, you know, liking a tweet and then not buying Kellogg's cereal for a week and calling it a day. You feel like you're doing your part when you're really not doing much and there's a lot more work to be done. That's kind of a big danger of it for sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

I gotta tell you, friend, I'm very relieved, because a few minutes ago, I thought you were about to say something about L.L. bean.

[Josh Clark]

Nope.

[Chuck Bryant]

When you mentioned duck boots, I was like, oh, no, don't tell me. I gotta get rid of my duck boots.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I've got mine, too. And luckily there are other brands that make duck boots. But not like L.L. beans.

[Chuck Bryant]

No. Are there, though?

[Josh Clark]

Sure. I've got some Sperrys that are pretty good.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, yeah, okay. I like Sperries.

[Josh Clark]

So there you go. And then lastly, Chuck, I actually corresponded with a professor at Melbourne Business School in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia, about Something. Yeah. And I did that with Jill Klein. I found an article called why We Boycott Consumer Motivations for Boycott Participation. And it's from all the way back in 2004. But I asked her like, okay, is this, does this still apply? And she said yes, because these four motivators that the study turned up or based on basic psychological processes that are unlikely to change in 20 years. That's what she said. Right. So they found four motivators that are, that are the better predictors of whether somebody takes part in a boycott. Do you want to hear them or should we just end the episode here?

[Chuck Bryant]

Hey, that's up to you, bud.

[Josh Clark]

I'll go forward with them. One is egregiousness. That is how badly a company behaved or how bad. The thing that the company is supporting is efficacy. So the person's judgment on whether the boycott's going to make any difference whatsoever, self enhancement is one. Is it going to make them look good? Is it going to make them feel good about themselves for doing it? And then estimated participation of others. So the more people you have joining in, the more the person is likely to join in, which I call the cool Modi effect.

[Chuck Bryant]

It's a good thing that got here because I know for a fact she rolled that up, put it in a bottle, corked it and threw it in the ocean.

[Josh Clark]

I couldn't believe how fast that current carried it here in like 12 hours.

[Chuck Bryant]

Pretty impressive.

[Josh Clark]

Pretty impressive. So thanks a lot, Dr. Jill Klein of Melbourne Business School and her co author, Andrew John, who also weighed in on the email.

[Chuck Bryant]

I love it.

[Josh Clark]

Thanks to everybody who helped us out with this, including Dave. And thank you for listening to this episode. And since I just thanked everybody, it's time. Time for listener mail.

[Chuck Bryant]

This is from a guy in Athens and this is about our styrofoam. Hey guys. Longtime listener. I run a business over near Athens where we. Athens, Georgia. That is where we recycle 90 to 95% of our waste. We're primarily a candle company, but also have a quaint retail store in downtown Monroe.

[Josh Clark]

Nice.

[Chuck Bryant]

Where we make our own products. When I started the business, I wanted ethical sourcing, sustainability and health to be our pillars of guidance. We source all of our materials from sustainable or recycled sources, but we also have a huge recycling program where customers can bring back their cleaned out old containers to be exchanged for discounts on new products.

[Josh Clark]

That's awesome because those things are hard to clean out.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, totally. So he's been going to charm. They have one in Athens because we mentioned charm. The great recycling center for hard to recycle materials here in Atlanta that Emily is dedicated to and they've been going to charm for years. And he said, Since I know the industry lacks some transparency, I've decided to ask one of the folks what they do with low density plastic and Styrofoam that I drop off since I heard those things typically have a low conversion rate into new material. And to answer your pondering question from the episode about Styrofoam, the rep told me they sell it to a company that actually turns it into synthetic decking material, which I thought was pretty neat. Yeah, I love that. And thanks for all you do and for being a good model of healthy friendship. Hey, hey, how about that?

[Josh Clark]

What a great way to put it.

[Chuck Bryant]

And that is from Matt at the Rekindle Candle Company and you can just look online. This sounds like great stuff with a great core mission. So just check out the Rekindle Candle Company Online from Athens, Georgia and buy their stuff.

[Josh Clark]

That name is adorable, Matt.

[Chuck Bryant]

I love it.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, thanks a lot for the email. Thanks a lot for what you're doing up there. I'm going to go check out Rekindle Candy Candle Company, either online or in person. Who knows. And if you want to be like Matt and send us a great email, you can do. So wrap it up, spank it on the bottom and send it off to Stuff podcastheartradio.com.

[Chuck Bryant]

Stuff you should know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Josh Clark]

Living with a rare autoimmune condition comes with challenges but also incredible strength, especially for those living with conditions like myasthenia gravis or mg, and chronic inflammatory demyelinating polyneuropathy, otherwise known as cidp. Finding empowerment in the community is critical. Untold Stories Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a Ruby Studio production in partnership with Argenics, explores people discovering strength in the most unexpected places. Listen to untold Stories on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Adventure should never come with a pause button.

[Bridget Todd]

Remember MoviePass, all the movies you wanted for just nine bucks. I'm Bridget Todd, host of There Are no Girls on the Internet, and this season I'm digging into the tech stories we weren't told, starting with Stacy Spikes, the Black founder of MoviePass, who got pushed out of the company he built.

[Josh Clark]

Everybody's trying to knock you down, and it's not gonna work and no one's gonna like it and then boom, it's everywhere.

[Chuck Bryant]

And that was that moment.

[Bridget Todd]

Listen to There are no girls on the Internet, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Summer's here and with the kids home and off to camp, it's easy for moms to get lost in the shuffle on Good Moms Bad Choices. We're making space to center ourselves with.

[Ebony]

Joy, rest and pleasure.

[Bridget Todd]

Take the kids to camp. You know what? It was expensive, but I was also thinking, you have my kid. This is kind of priceless. Take her, feed her. Make core memories. I don't have to do anything.

[Ebony]

Main thing, I don't have to do.

[Chuck Bryant]

Anything to hear this and more.

[Ebony]

Listen to Good Mom's Bad Choices from.

[Bridget Todd]

Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio.

[Chuck Bryant]

App, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast.

[Bridget Todd]

This is an iHeart podcast.