How Styrofoam Works

Summary

Podcast Summary: "How Styrofoam Works" – Stuff You Should Know

Release Date: June 10, 2025
Hosts: Josh Clark and Chuck Bryant
Produced by: iHeartPodcast

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Introduction

In this episode of Stuff You Should Know, hosts Josh Clark and Chuck Bryant delve into the intricate world of Styrofoam—exploring its scientific foundations, historical development, widespread applications, and the significant environmental challenges it poses. The discussion is enriched by insights from their colleague, Olivia, who provides expert clarification on common misconceptions about Styrofoam.

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Understanding Styrofoam: Definitions and Distinctions

Clarifying Terminology (03:24 - 04:33)
Josh and Chuck begin by distinguishing between Styrofoam and similar materials. Olivia explains that "Styrofoam is a brand name," emphasizing that the commonly used to-go containers are technically Expanded Polystyrene (EPS), while Extruded Polystyrene (XPS)—which includes the actual Styrofoam brand—is primarily used for insulation. Despite slight differences in properties, both are derived from the same raw materials and share similar production processes.

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The History and Development of Styrofoam

Early Beginnings and Military Applications (05:27 - 07:53)
Josh traces the origins of polystyrene back to 1839 when German pharmacist Eduard Simon first distilled styrene from a sweet gum tree. However, it wasn't until the 1930s that significant advancements occurred. Swedish inventor Carl Munters and later, during World War II, the Dow Chemical Company under engineer Ray McIntyre, developed the modern form of Styrofoam. McIntyre's accidental discovery of the airy, insulating properties of polystyrene combined with isobutylene led to the commercial production of lightweight, buoyant Styrofoam used extensively in marine applications and insulation.

Commercialization and Popularity (08:56 - 13:05)
Post-war prosperity saw Styrofoam emerge as a versatile material. In the 1950s and 1960s, companies like Dart Container Corporation pioneered Styrofoam's use in containers and cups, revolutionizing the fast-food industry. Chuck reminisces about iconic products like the McDonald's McDLT container, highlighting Styrofoam's role in shaping consumer convenience.

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Production Process of Styrofoam

From Monomers to Polymers (20:03 - 25:41)
Josh and Chuck delve into the chemistry behind Styrofoam. They explain that modern production starts with petroleum-derived benzene and ethylene, which, through a series of catalytic reactions, form styrene. This monomer polymerizes into polystyrene, characterized by phenyl groups that prevent crystalline structures, resulting in a brittle, transparent material. The addition of blowing agents like HFC 134A for XPS and pentane for EPS introduces gas bubbles, creating the lightweight and insulating properties of Styrofoam.

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Applications of Styrofoam

Wide-Ranging Uses (11:14 - 14:46)
The hosts enumerate various applications of Styrofoam, including:

• Insulation: Used in radiant heat flooring, walls, and industrial refrigerators.
• Packaging: Employed as packing peanuts and protective cushioning for household appliances.
• Consumer Products: Utilized in to-go coffee cups, ice cream containers, Christmas ornaments, and marine equipment like buoys and floating docks.

Josh humorously notes the cultural impact of Styrofoam, reminiscing about the ubiquitous presence of Styrofoam containers in fast food and everyday life.

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Environmental Impact

Air Pollution and Greenhouse Gases (35:26 - 36:37)
The discussion turns to the environmental repercussions of Styrofoam production and disposal. Josh highlights that the blowing agents used in XPS and EPS are potent greenhouse gases. For instance, HFC 134A used in EPS is "1430 times more efficient than carbon dioxide" in trapping heat, exacerbating global warming.

Threats to Marine Life (36:37 - 38:24)
Styrofoam's durability leads to significant marine pollution. As floating products like buoys and docks degrade, they fragment into microplastics, which are ingested by marine animals, disrupting ecosystems. The non-biodegradable nature of Styrofoam means it persists in the environment for centuries, occupying landfill space and causing long-term ecological harm.

Recycling Challenges (44:40 - 47:42)
Recycling Styrofoam presents substantial hurdles. Josh explains that its lightweight and bulky nature make transportation for recycling economically unfeasible. Additionally, contamination from food and additives like pigments and flame retardants further complicate the recycling process. While companies like Agilix in Oregon are pioneering upcycling efforts—transforming Styrofoam back into crude oil—the scale remains insufficient to address global Styrofoam production.

Biodegradation Prospects (46:19 - 47:42)
Recent discoveries reveal certain microbes capable of breaking down Styrofoam, such as mealworms and waxworm larvae. However, scaling these solutions to handle the vast amounts of Styrofoam produced annually remains a significant challenge.

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Health Concerns

Toxicity of Styrene (27:59 - 30:57)
Styrene, the monomer from which polystyrene is derived, poses serious health risks. Studies cited by Chuck indicate that workers exposed to styrene suffer from central nervous system issues, including headaches, depression, and impaired reaction times. Furthermore, polystyrene's tendency to leach styrene into food—especially when microwaved—raises concerns about its safety for everyday use. The World Health Organization has classified styrene as a probable carcinogen, intensifying the scrutiny over Styrofoam products.

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Regulatory and Corporate Response

Bans and Lobbying Efforts (39:11 - 43:31)
In response to environmental and health concerns, various regions have enacted bans on Styrofoam. Cities like Berkeley, California, and Suffolk County, New York, were pioneers in the 1980s. However, these bans often face resistance from Styrofoam manufacturers through aggressive lobbying and legal battles. Chuck recounts instances where companies like Dark Container shut down operations in states like Maryland and California in retaliation to bans, highlighting the ongoing struggle between environmental advocacy and corporate interests.

Public Awareness and Alternatives (42:44 - 43:31)
Despite the challenges, public awareness initiatives and consumer preference shifts are gradually reducing Styrofoam's prevalence. The hosts advocate for alternatives such as paper containers and encourage responsible disposal practices to mitigate environmental impact.

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Recycling and Upcycling Innovations

Innovative Solutions (45:20 - 48:59)
Josh discusses emerging technologies aimed at tackling Styrofoam waste. Companies like Agilix are developing methods to convert Styrofoam back into petroleum products, which can then be reused in various industrial applications. Additionally, Josh shares a personal anecdote about dissolving Styrofoam using acetone, though he humorously admits uncertainty about practical applications for this method.

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Conclusion and Listener Engagement

Final Thoughts and Call to Action (49:05 - 51:16)
Wrapping up, Josh and Chuck emphasize the importance of reducing Styrofoam usage and exploring sustainable alternatives. They invite listeners to engage through listener mail, sharing personal experiences and insights related to Styrofoam and its impact.

In a heartfelt listener segment, Levi from Hangzhou, China, shares his thoughts on Billy Joel, adding a personal and nostalgic touch to the episode before the hosts sign off.

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Notable Quotes

• Josh Clark (05:57): "Styrene is C8, H8. Lots of carbon, lots of hydrogen together."

• Chuck Bryant (27:59): "Styrene is dangerous. If you're just talking about health problems, central nervous system problems, headaches, depression, fatigue."

• Josh Clark (30:11): "Do not microwave your polystyrene to go container. Ever. Never. Just don't ever do it."

• Chuck Bryant (35:26): "HFC 134A... It's a really powerful greenhouse gas that traps heat 1430 times more efficiently than carbon dioxide."

• Josh Clark (46:19): "You're just bury it in the backyard and forget about it."

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Key Takeaways

1. Styrofoam, primarily Expanded Polystyrene (EPS) and Extruded Polystyrene (XPS), is a versatile material with extensive applications ranging from insulation to consumer packaging.

2. The production of Styrofoam involves petrochemicals, specifically styrene, which poses significant health and environmental risks due to its toxicity and contribution to greenhouse gas emissions.

3. Environmental Impact: Styrofoam's non-biodegradable nature leads to persistent pollution in landfills and marine ecosystems, harming wildlife and contributing to climate change.

4. Recycling Challenges: The bulky and lightweight nature of Styrofoam, combined with contamination issues, make recycling economically unfeasible. Innovative upcycling methods are emerging but are not yet widespread.

5. Regulatory Actions: Despite bans in various regions, Styrofoam manufacturers employ aggressive lobbying to sustain their operations, highlighting the tension between environmental sustainability and corporate interests.

6. Consumer Responsibility: Reducing Styrofoam usage and seeking sustainable alternatives are crucial steps toward mitigating its environmental footprint.

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This episode provides a comprehensive exploration of Styrofoam, blending scientific explanation with historical context and environmental analysis. Josh and Chuck offer a balanced perspective, acknowledging Styrofoam's utility while critically examining its long-term sustainability challenges.

Transcript

[Chuck Bryant]

This is an iHeart podcast. This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Apply for Apple Card today and start earning up to 3% daily cash back on everyday purchases.

[Josh Clark]

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[Chuck Bryant]

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[Livia]

These are among the benchmarks when considering a new vehicle. But Lexus believes there are some things, immeasurable things that matter more. Awe, exhilaration. Joy. How a cabin feels like it was crafted with you in mind. The way an engine note resonates with your soul. Because a car that doesn't make you feel something is a car that stops short of amazing. That's the standard of amazing Lexus experience. Amazing.

[Chuck Bryant]

Welcome to Stuff youf Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

[Josh Clark]

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh. And there's Chuck. And Jerry's here too. And this is a good old fashioned, rootin tootin, wholesome down home hour of fellowship with stuff you should know.

[Chuck Bryant]

Wow, you sound like the coolest youth director in the building.

[Josh Clark]

You nailed it, Chuck. You totally nailed it.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right.

[Josh Clark]

I'm also the only youth director in the building right now.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. I had to hang up my spurs.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, you got run out on a rail, didn't you?

[Chuck Bryant]

They were like, if there's one thing that's certainly not cool, it's youth directors in their 50s. So you're out, right?

[Josh Clark]

I'm still in my 40s, so it's kind of like David Bowie said, don't trust any youth director over 50.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. You know, he also sung about Styrofoam.

[Josh Clark]

No, he didn't.

[Chuck Bryant]

No, I thought I could get you.

[Josh Clark]

No, I could see it. I mean, like, it was when Bowie was Bowie, it was. Styrofoam was still this amazing wonder product. But I gotta say, Chuck, I feel like in the last decade or so, maybe it started to get kind of a bad name.

[Chuck Bryant]

I think you're right. And we're gonna. I mean, we're gonna talk about the science of it all, how it's made, and clear up some misconceptions and reinfor.

[Josh Clark]

Conceptions.

[Chuck Bryant]

But the first thing we should probably clear up. And big thanks to Olivia, by the way. She knocked another One out of the park is that Styrofoam is a brand name. And Livia is keen to point out that it's not just like Band Aid or Kleenex. Like this one actually matters. Because the Styrofoam that you and I think of and most people probably think of is like, you know what to go container or old school coffee cup or to go coffee cup might be. That's actually not Styrofoam. That's technically something called EPS expanded polystyrene. Whereas the brand name Styrofoam is extruded polystyrene. And that's mainly just like used for insulation and cut into big boards and stuff like that.

[Josh Clark]

Right. And you're like, well, what's the big deal? They're actually basically exactly the same products. They have slightly different properties, but it's all the same raw materials, very similar production processes. And the final product is for all intents and purposes, the same. The big difference is the Styrofoam is used for years and years and years and years. Like once you put it in to insulate a radiant heat floor, you're not going to tear that up after a couple of days and throw it in the dump with the other stuff that expanded polystyrene, the stuff we think of as Styrofoam, that's the stuff we use once for a few minutes and just throw away and get another new one. And that's posing a bigger and bigger problem as time goes on.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. Unless you're at my house. Then Emily collects every bit of Styrofoam and drives it to the specific Styrofoam place. Charm, yeah. Which still may not be recycling it.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, no. Really?

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, I don't know. I mean, I think Charm does the right thing, but I don't know. I just think so much of that stuff is dubious once you drop it off. Like, who knows what even happens to it.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

And I don't mean that in a conspiracy minded way. I just mean that, as we'll see, recycling Styrofoam, there's just not a lot of reason to do it if you're Styrofoam people, because you can just make it again so cheaply.

[Josh Clark]

It's true. And for those of you. Yeah, it is sad, for sure. And for those of you outside of the Atlanta area, Charm is the 1 recycling center in the entire metro Atlanta area where you can take. Styrofoam. Stands for the center for hard to recycle materials.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I Mean, God bless Emily for doing all that, because I certainly wouldn't.

[Josh Clark]

I know it's a haul. It's not really conveniently.

[Chuck Bryant]

Neither is saving tons and tons of Styrofoam to go to Charm once a month or whatever. But she does it, so she does the right thing.

[Josh Clark]

So let's talk about all this stuff, because I find it pretty fascinating. There's some science involved, there's some environmentalism involved, there's some corporate tomfoolery involved. I'm excited about this one.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, I'm glad.

[Josh Clark]

Good. Well, I'm going to kick it off because Styrofoam. Well, let's start. We're talking about polystyrene. And polystyrene is a form of styrene. And styrene occurs naturally in a lot of different plants. It's just kind of part of the ecosystem. But it was first distilled out In, I think, 1839 by a German pharmacist. I'm going with Eduard Simmon. In German.

[Chuck Bryant]

You know, I don't know, Simone. That sounds French.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, that doesn't sound very German.

[Chuck Bryant]

I mean, just call him Eddie Simon.

[Josh Clark]

Eddie Simon. In 1839, he was a pharmacist who got his hands on a sweet gum tree from America, which was probably very exotic in Germany at the time. And he got styrene out of there, and he figured out how to take styrene molecules, which are a monomer, and put a bunch of them together to make a polymer. And what he got was a rigid plastic solid. What we're talking about is a type of plastic. And he's like, I can't do anything with this, and just moved along.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And it stayed that way for close to 100 years, like 90 years or so. And finally, in the 1930s, again, a lot of stuff comes about because they're trying to figure out some sort of military use for something that was the case here. As we were, you know, between wars, the military was like, hey, how can we use this stuff? The literal brand name, Styrofoam, which, again, is the XPs, the stuff that's, you know, used in radiant flooring and, like, wall insulation and stuff like that. That was invented a couple of times. The first time by a Swedish inventor named Carl Munters, who developed it in the 30s, but again, didn't have a lot of practical use for it. And then Dow came along, the Dow Chemical Company during World War II, and they had an engineer named Ray McIntyre who said, I'm looking to try and get a Synthetic, or I guess he was charged with trying to develop a synthetic substitute for rubber.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, he was facing five years for it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. To use as a flexible insulator. And he combined styrene with isobutylene. And what he got was something he didn't expect, which was this very airy. The isobutylene formed bubbles in the styrene. So it was, you know, what we think of as Styrofoam. This super light, very airy, very insulating, water resistant, flexible material.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So imagine taking something like, imagine taking a CD jewel case because that's polystyrene, and chopping it up into little tiny pellets and then you're messing around with it and adding isobutylene and all of a sudden those pellets just turn into little foamy balls. The exact same thing that if you have a very lightweight beanbag chair, it's full of those, it's polystyrene foam. That's the basis of the whole thing. Right. These little tiny pellets. And he must have just been as surprised as the day is long.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, well, Dow was certainly surprised and delighted. And they were like, hey, let's just start manufacturing this stuff. We got plenty of things we can do. And somebody said, wait a minute, there's this other guy named Carl Munters who already developed, you know, and has patented this concept. And Dow said, great, let's just write him, cut him a check. And now we can patent capital S Styrofoam. And they did so and they started saying, hey, you know, we can build like floating docks out of this stuff. And there's all sorts of marine uses, basically. Because it floats really well.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, because that extruded polystyrene, the actual Styrofoam brand type that is very water resistant, it's extremely lightweight, it's very buoyant. So it just automatically made sense to apply it to different, like water based situations, right?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. As far as the stuff that we think of as Styrofoam, around the same time in the 1930s, a German company called IP Farben, who. I know we've talked about them before, several times.

[Josh Clark]

They're the ones who created the gas that was used in the gas chambers.

[Chuck Bryant]

Ah, okay.

[Josh Clark]

They've come up a time or two. They don't have a great reputation these days.

[Chuck Bryant]

No, I know we definitely talked about them a few times. But they were developing the eps, the polystyrene foam, the stuff again that we think of as Styrofoam, like, you know, the cups and the to go containers and all that stuff. And both sides in World War II started saying, hey, this stuff is super light and super insulating. Works good as a shock absorber. We can use it in various parts to make them lighter. So let's get going with it.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. The thing is, I guess it's part of the extrusion process. It essentially is only made in board form. Long finish boards. Right. Kind of like it looks like drywall, but it's foam. If you've ever been to a do it yourself hardware store and they have like big, big rectangles of foam, that is Styrofoam. Styro. It's. It might not be Styrofoam brand, but it's that exact same thing. Right. And there's not that many uses to it, but the stuff it does do, like block out heat. Insulate is another word for it. It does really, really well. Right. So the, the XPS is. It has like some limited applications. The eps, the stuff we think of like the Styrofoam cups and all that stuff that has like a limitless applications because you can take that stuff as part of the production process.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And push it into a mold and mold it into any shape you want. And they definitely did that in the post war era of prosperous better living through chemistry. Styrofoam was a big star of that at first.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And you know, you can probably name any sort of insulation application that it was used for. Everything from, you know, ice cream containers. Like, you know, when you go to taste all the ice cream and then finally settle on one those big coolers, those are lined with thick Styrofoam. They used them for Christmas ornaments because they were super light and won't weigh down a tree. All kinds again, of marine applications, buoys, floating docks, in boats. Again, you can mold it however you want. But the Styrofoam coolers that you pick up at the gas station because you just have a hankering for cold beer and you're on the road, you want.

[Josh Clark]

To drink and drive smart.

[Chuck Bryant]

Just kidding. But those that you see in the convenience store, those started popping up in the 1950s, but we didn't see the cups until the 1960s. Right.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Apparently Chick Fil? A was one of the first restaurants to adopt Styrofoam cups for to go stuff. Right. That was in 1960, I think.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Right on the nose. From what, the Dart Manufacturing Company of Michigan.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So Dart Manufacturing got into this and they got into it so heavy that they Actually ended up changing their name to Dart Container Corporation. They're one of the leading companies or leading producers of what you would consider Styrofoam containers.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So they were the ones that started producing this, started kind of getting it out there. Like, hey, you know how you don't like your customers sitting around taking an hour and a half to drink their Coke?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Buy one of our Styrofoam cups, they'll just get right out of your hair and somebody else can come in and patronize your. Your restaurant. Right. So it caught on pretty quick. I think 711 was the first chain to actually start using Styrofoam cups for coffee, which, as we'll see, was a bad idea right out of the gate.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And by the 70s, it was like, anywhere you went and got coffee, it came in a white. And again, I'm sorry, I realize I keep using the word Styrofoam. You couldn't do any different than I am right now. Trying to talk about this.

[Chuck Bryant]

It's impossible.

[Josh Clark]

But that just became the standard for this whole thing. Like a Styrofoam cup. That's what your coffee came in. Until Starbucks came along.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mean, for decades, basically. And then Starbucks did lead the charge to sort of get rid of that. And then, you know, a bunch of people followed suit, thankfully. But, you know, when fast food came along and takeout food got more popular, obviously that's going to grow, grow, grow the Styrofoam business. I'm very glad Livia included this. Cause I would have if she wouldn't have. And you probably would have, too. But if you grew up a kid in the 80s, then you remember the McDonald's McDLT. If you don't remember. I think we've mentioned it before, but the idea was they were like, hey, no one wants all this hot, droopy lettuce and steamy tomatoes on their hamburgers. They want that stuff to be cold, and they want their burger to be hot. And they want to do it like you do at home is you add that stuff right before you put it in your mouth for the right mixture. And that's what the MCDLT was. It was not only an offending Styrofoam container, but it was a double. Because you had one side that had keeps the hot stuff hot and the cool side cool.

[Josh Clark]

That's right.

[Chuck Bryant]

And none other than Seinfeld's own Jason Alexander sang and danced in a TV commercial in the 80s extolling the virtues of the MCDLT container itself.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Wearing a skinny tie. I think he's wearing a blazer with the sleeves rolled up, even maybe probably.

[Chuck Bryant]

Pushed up like he.

[Josh Clark]

He stinks of 1985.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

The thing about the McDLT container and. Yeah. If you don't know what we're talking about, just go look it up. Once you took the top off, you could actually, like, close the bottoms together and put your sandwich together like that using your Styrofoam container.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, really?

[Josh Clark]

Those who were, like, really good at it. Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

See, I don't know. I never ate that wasn't my jam. But it seemed like it would just kind of not do a very great job of that.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. No, McDlt never passed my lips either, because of the L and the T. But I have to say, one of the things that makes me really nostalgic from my childhood is looking at old Styrofoam McDonald's containers.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. It's hard not to just see that yellow container with all the M's all over it.

[Josh Clark]

Yep.

[Chuck Bryant]

And not pine for it, but just, you know, just like nostalgia does.

[Josh Clark]

Definitely takes you back. What knocked me out is, as we'll see, it wasn't until 1990 that they stopped using those things.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And we'll get to, you know, how it's been sort of weeded out here and there. But it's still a booming industry. I think. Last year, worldwide, there were 15.2 million total tons of polystyrene produced, and about 60% of that is in the Asia Pacific region. Apparently, it's a growing thing, but it's growing much slower in Europe and North America than it is in industrializing areas around the world.

[Josh Clark]

Right. Most of it goes in the packing industry. I think a third of it is used by packaging industry. Those packing peanuts were invented by a guy named Robert E. Holden back in 1965. Household appliances uses another quarter of it. I didn't understand that. I think some of it is packing materials. You know, you have to pull all those boards of Styrofoam out of your new refrigerator. Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

I think it's also in some of the units, like in a washer, aren't there, like, big chunks of Styrofoam? Is it just, like air take up airspace?

[Josh Clark]

I think that's part of it. And then also, like, in that same fridge, there's, like, around the dials and controls. They'll use some for insulation. They don't actually insulate the fridge with it because you can't create an airtight seal between two boards. But they do use it in other places in the fridge where you don't need an airtight seal.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, I think this is off to a capital start. Shall we take a break and let you take over?

[Josh Clark]

Sure. I think that's a capital idea.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, we'll be right back.

[Josh Clark]

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[Chuck Bryant]

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[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I mean, summer's a perfect time to host a nice outdoor gathering. So you want to have a nice outdoor space to host that gathering in. And don't be scared off about ordering big, beautiful outdoor furniture from Wayfair. Because with Wayfair, delivery is free and easy, even on the big stuff.

[Chuck Bryant]

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[Livia]

Horsepower zero to 60 times. These are among the benchmarks when considering a new vehicle. But Lexus believes there are some things, immeasurable, things that matter more. Awe, Exhilaration. Joy. How a cabin feels like it was crafted with you in mind. The way an engine note resonates with your soul. Because a car that doesn't make you feel feel something is a car that stops short of amazing. That's the standard of amazing Lexus experience. Amazing.

[Chuck Bryant]

This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Apply for Apple Card today and start earning up to 3% daily cash back on everyday purchases.

[Josh Clark]

And that daily cash can even grow automatically when you open a high yield savings account through Apple Card.

[Chuck Bryant]

What are you waiting for? Visit Apple Co Card calculator today to see how much daily cash you can earn. Subject to credit approval, savings available to Apple Card owners. Subject to eligibility savings and Apple Card by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Member FDIC terms and [e-mail].

[Josh Clark]

Okay, Chuck, so we're back, and you said that I would be taking over. And since I'm taking over, I'm in charge and I'm delegating it to you.

[Chuck Bryant]

I can start this part, but you know when to come in because it's part of, you know, it's chemistry. And that's famously the only class I ever failed.

[Josh Clark]

I'm just fascinated by it. So, yeah, this works out just perfectly.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's great. If we're talking about styrene today, another name for it is vinyl benzene, because it is a vinyl, as we'll see, it does not come from a plant like Eddie Simon used back in Germany in the 1830s. The modern process starts with, you know, it comes from petroleum products these days, and specifically a couple called benzene and ethylene. They're combined with a catalyst called aluminum chloride to eventually produce ethylbenzene. You get that in a gas state. Process it at a high temperature with another catalyst. It's a process called dehydrogenating. And finally you have your styrene.

[Josh Clark]

Yes. Styrene is C8, H8. Lots of carbon, lots of hydrogen together.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And in that styrene molecule, there are carbon atoms that have a double bond between them. Right. Which means that they can share one. So when you take styrene, a monomer, and put a bunch of them together to create a polymer, one of those double bonds kind of opens up and connects to another one and another one, another one. It forms a carbon chain. Right. But if you look at the. I don't know what it's called, but like the chemical drawing, you know, of like the molecule with the lines and the C's and the H's and everything.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I feel like in most movies that's rendered 3D so you can zoom all. Zoom it around and stuff.

[Josh Clark]

Right. This is more like the written out shorthand that I'm talking about. I know what you're talking about.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

I don't know what mine's called, but whatever that is for the polystyrene, if you look at it, it's a nice little carbon chain. But then there's these like, medallions dangling off of them. Those are called phenyl groups. And because of those things, the. The polymers can't form a really nice crystalline structure.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

Which means that you can. It's see through, it's not particularly thick, it's brittle, so it can break and it's not flexible very much. Right. And I was like, well, wait a minute. Crystal you think about is already see through. But as far as chemistry goes, the more crystalline a structure is, the tighter the whole thing is put together. So the thicker and less see through it is. So like steel has a Very crystalline structure. Even though, you know, I think rose quartz when I think of a crystalline structure. But that's wrong, wrong, wrong.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, see, that's why I'm not good at chemistry. It's not very intuitive, is it?

[Josh Clark]

No, but, I mean, this is pretty late in life. It's not like I was a chemistry whiz in high school. I'm not even sure if I took a chemistry class in high school.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, yeah?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I got out of a lot of stuff. Never took trig.

[Chuck Bryant]

How'd you get out of that stuff?

[Josh Clark]

I had my ways.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, okay. I won't ask any further.

[Josh Clark]

So, again, if you take this stuff, this polystyrene, you don't have anything that even resembles a foam cup. You have, like, what looks like a bunch of pellets that if you mash together, you would, again, create a CD jewel case. Because that's exactly what they do. To create those, you have to go add a couple extra steps to create polystyrene foam.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, exactly. And, you know, we said that that stuff was prone to cracking and very breakable if you came about in the CD jewel case era. Red Solo cups, too, are also the same thing. But, you know, those CD jewel cases, if you had one long enough, it was going to have a crack in it.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah. Just to throw out the entire thing.

[Chuck Bryant]

No, no, no, no. It was almost a badge of honor. Like, look how long I've had this thing. You can't even see through it anymore. It's cracked all over the place.

[Josh Clark]

You can't even see Billy Joel's face.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right. By the way. Well, I think we'll just follow up with the Billy Joel listener mail, but he announced he has a medical condition and he's canceling his tour for now, so it was very sad to see.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, man, what a.

[Chuck Bryant]

Kind of. Right after we talked about him. I know.

[Josh Clark]

Jinx.

[Chuck Bryant]

Hopefully he'll be okay, though.

[Josh Clark]

But anyway, I'm sure he will be.

[Chuck Bryant]

So these XPS boards that we keep talking about, the capital S Styrofoam, that's used in insulation and stuff like that, how they make that is they melt those little beads that you were talking about, those little granules, add chemicals, one of which is a blowing agent, and then they force that thing through a die. As in a die. As in, like, die cast metal type thing.

[Josh Clark]

Right? And then they're constantly pushing that stuff through, and it's melting it and pressing it together. And the final product, those boards of polystyrene are really smooth. They're really thick they're not very. They just look really uniform. And the reason why is because all of those cells, all those polystyrene foam pellets that you use in a beanbag chair, they get pressed together so tightly with so much pressure and heat that they. There's no space between them, basically. Okay. With expanded polystyrene, the stuff that you make cups and containers out of, it's slightly different. You take those same pellets, and like you said, there's a blowing agent in there. Both kinds have a blowing agent, but they use different ones. And the blowing agent is this kind of gas that is put into. In little tiny bubbles into the little polystyrene foam pellets. That's what makes it foamy. But if you take those same pellets and you expose them to steam, they swell up because that blowing agent suddenly boils and vaporizes at very low temperatures. And the pellets expand to like, 40 times their size, and they melt together very easily. And what you have now is essentially the raw material for expanded polystyrene. That's why they call it expanded, which you can make everything from coffee cup to vintage Santa Claus door ornament face.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, exactly.

[Josh Clark]

Do you remember those?

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, totally.

[Josh Clark]

I mean, that's another nostalgic thing. I think you can get them still on, like, ebay.

[Chuck Bryant]

There's a lot of nostalgia around Styrofoam, if you kind of really think about it, if you're a Gen Xer.

[Josh Clark]

But that, I mean, that goes to show just how what a huge part it was of 20th century life.

[Chuck Bryant]

It really was. Yeah, for sure. So we mentioned, you know, those boards are really great at insulating, which is why they use it in, like, siding sometimes and stuff like that. Or in ice cream coolers. One reason is because it is water resistant. If you have an insulating material that has moisture in it, that's no good, because water conducts heat really well.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

So that's one good thing. But they do degrade over time. The board, you know, that blowing agent will leak out of those cells a little bit over time. So it's a little less insulating. And while it is water resistant, it's not completely water resistant. So when it does not resist a little bit of water, it has a really, AKA absorption. It has a really hard time getting rid of it again. So that just kind of knocks it down over time. But even considering depletion, it still has a really good thermal resistance and is still a really good insulator.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it's like twice as twice as good, I guess, than that rollout insulation that you can buy.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And I don't think we mentioned early on, you know, they were, they used to put like foot thick cork walls and like industrial refrigerators and stuff. And they could get that down to like 2 inches of Styrofoam. So it was really useful.

[Josh Clark]

I don't know if we said this too. It's like really, really cheap to manufacture as well.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, super cheap. And so it sounds like just this wonder product. That's. Everything about it is great. But here's where it goes dark. Here's where the VH1 behind the Music is probably like 35, 40 minutes into the VH1, right before the commercial break, they'll say, and that's when things got dark. Because of course styrene is dangerous. If you're just talking about health problems, central nervous system problems, headaches, depression, fatigue. Obviously if you're breathing this stuff in, it's no good. It's no good for your skin and your eyes. And you might think, well, what's the big deal? Because we're not breathing that stuff in. But if you work at one of these places that manufactures it, you totally are.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And they've followed people who work in styrene plants and found that the neurotoxicity makes them kind of dull and a little dippy. Kind of like you're drunk and your reaction times are slower. And we're talking styrene itself, the monomer, that's the basis of polystyrene foam, right?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

It's been shown to cause birth defects, reproductive defects, cancer. Like you said, it's, it's a bad jam. Polystyrene seems to be not nearly as dangerous. The problem is the way that we make polystyrene. There's still styrene that can break off essentially from the polymer and float around and get into your body. And that's, that's no good.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I think they've, since the mid-80s, they've found styrene and samples of human fat tissue. Of course, the public health organizations are saying like they do with everything like that, like, oh, it's not enough to really worry about it. Everyone's got a little styrene in their fat. Don't sweat it. But in 2018, it was bad enough as a potential carcinogen that the World Health Organization raised it from possible carcinogen to probable carcinogen. And I imagine it won't be long till they're just like, can we all just admit it's A carcinogenic.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I'm sure that the polystyrene companies are fighting that tooth and nail.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So we should say that most of the. Most of the studies that have shown, like, styrene is bad for you, like we said, looked at workers who. Who work around styrene, and we don't work around styrene. We're just podcasters. You probably don't work around styrene either. So, like you said, it's not. It's not like they're not clutching their pearls over this or whatever, but it does seem like this thing where the more that we look at it, the more problems we find from it and the more we come to understand that actually there. There's probably more exposure to styrene than we thought. Like, if you look across the board, everyone will tell you, anyone who knows anything about polystyrene, I should say, will say, do not microwave your polystyrene to go container.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Ever. Never. Just don't ever do it. Because they found that. That polystyrene can leach styrene into your food. And you eat that stuff. You don't want to do that. And there's even types of containers, polystyrene containers, that have, like three little wavy lines and says microwave safe or microwavable or something like that. And those supposedly you can microwave your food with. No, because what that refers to is the container will survive. It. It has nothing to do with whether or not there's going to be chemicals leaching into your food. They're just saying this. This container won't melt in your mind. That's it. So never, ever, ever do that. Just take the extra step of dumping it onto a plate, for Pete's sake.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. And, you know, especially hot things, especially acidic things like, oh, I don't know, hot coffee. They found that, you know, that stuff can leach into your body as styrene.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I think they said that it starts leaching out at about 104 degrees Fahrenheit, 40 degrees Celsius. Not that hot.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And it's used specifically to keep liquids and foods hot, I guess, or cold. But, you know. But hot is the problem.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Yeah. I think it still can leach out when it's even cool or room temperature. But heat is where it really starts to jack up.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. So, hey, if you get a salad and it's in one of those stupid things, put that in a nice ceramic bowl as well.

[Josh Clark]

Right. Put it in a solo cup. No, there's a bunch of other impacts that it has. Specifically environmentally.

[Chuck Bryant]

Should we break?

[Josh Clark]

Are we gonna break? Okay.

[Chuck Bryant]

I feel like that's a third act sort of thing.

[Josh Clark]

Okay. Well, man, I'm glad you caught me because I was about to take off.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, you're grounded. We'll be right.

[Livia]

Horsepower zero to 60 times. These are among the benchmarks when considering a new vehicle. But Lexus believes there are some things, immeasurable, things that matter more. Awe, exhilaration, joy. How a cabin feels like it was crafted with you in mind. The way an engine note resonates with your soul. Because a car that doesn't make you feel something is a car that stops short of amazing. That's the standard of amazing Lexus experience. Amazing.

[Chuck Bryant]

Hey, everybody. So when you get asked, what is Odoo? What comes to mind? Well, I'll tell you. Odoo is a bit of everything. Odoo is a suite of business management software that some people say is like fertilizer because of the way it promotes growth. But, you know, some people also say that Odoo is like a magic beanstalk because it grows with your company and is also magically affordable.

[Josh Clark]

Ooh. But then again, you could look at Odoo in terms of how its individual software programs are a lot like building blocks. Whatever your business needs. Manufacturing, accounting, HR programs, you can build a custom software suite that's perfect for your company. So what does Odoo? Well, Odoo is a bit of everything. Odoo is a fertilizer, magic beanstalk. Building blocks for business. Yeah, that's it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Which means that Odoo is exactly what every business needs. Learn more and sign up [e-mail]. that's O D O O dot com.

[Josh Clark]

Banking with capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about. In a good way. He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast, too. Thanks. Capital One Bank Guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capital1.com bank capital1na member. FDIC.

[Livia]

Stuff you should know.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right. Since I rudely cut Josh off when he was trying to talk about or Joffrey.

[Josh Clark]

That's a new. A good new name.

[Chuck Bryant]

G E O F F. Your favorite spelling of Jeff.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, but you have to say it like Joff. If you're going to go to the trouble of spelling Jeff like Joff, you should say Joff.

[Chuck Bryant]

Anyway, I cut off Jaw when he started to get hot on the environment. And so I'm going to let you take it away because the environmental disaster is basically into three categories, right?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Air pollution, threats to marine life and then solid waste. Those are the big three environmental impacts we found that it poses.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. The air pollution, you might be thinking like, well, I don't get it. Like it's just blowing into the air. It's in the manufacturing process. Those blowing agents that we talked about used in making both EPS and XPS for decades and decades they were using CFCs, chlorofluorocarbons. And then everyone's like, no, we can't use that stuff anymore. So we stopped using that stuff and they switched over to hydrofluorocarbons. In this case specifically HFC 134A. But that stuff's awful too.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, It's a really powerful greenhouse gas that traps heat 1430 times more efficiently than carbon dioxide. Man, that's a lot. They have other stuff that's way worse than that, but that's still not good. Especially considering how much Styrofoam is made every year, right?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure.

[Josh Clark]

But. So that's a problem with the extruded version. Apparently the expanded version doesn't have nearly the same problem because it uses a different blowing agent. The best reason I could come up with, and this is all supposition, is that the extruded version keeps its blowing agent trapped into its structure.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay, that makes sense.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, that's why it uses a different one than the expanded one. The expanded one, when it's blowing agent, vaporizes. It creates, I guess essentially pockets that get filled with air, so the blowing agent gets replaced with air. So they use a much less dangerous or potent greenhouse gas, wise gas pentane. It's like 10 times more efficient at trapping heat than carbon dioxide. So, you know, big whoop. So the big problem as far as air pollution goes is with the expanded version, the Styrofoam version.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. You mentioned threats to marine life. That's a pretty obvious one because it's used so much out there. Buoys again. And like any like boogie board or kind of floaty thing that you're using. Floating docks that I mentioned a few times, fish boxes that hold the fish that you catch when you're out at sea.

[Josh Clark]

Isn't that the same thing as that 1957 ice cooler?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, sometimes. That's a good point. But the problem with all this stuff is that when a buoy is floating out there that's made of Styrofoam, or there's a floating dock. It's not going to stay pristine. You know, it's going to chip away and it's going to degrade and it's going to start to float away in little bitty pieces. Birds are coming, coming along and eating that stuff. When it's floating on top, it'll get heavier as it goes. It'll attract other organisms that make it, you know, not floatable.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

And it will sink. And then all of a sudden, it's eaten in the water and on the bottom of the sea floor by other marine animals.

[Josh Clark]

Yes. And the reason why it starts to break down, like, say, if it's part of your marina dock, is because it's exposed to sunlight and UV radiation of different types break down. Polystyrene actually can break it down within a few years, as a matter of fact, when it's exposed to sunlight. The problem is a bunch of that stuff never gets exposed to sunlight. We throw it away and it gets buried in a landfill. And there are plenty of other types of waste that are not great to throw into a landfill, but they're biodegradable as far as we've known until very recently. Styrofoam is not biodegradable. It's only chemically degradable. And it takes centuries for it to chemically degrade within a landfill.

[Livia]

And.

[Josh Clark]

And because they're so big and bulky, even though they're very light, they're still usually in large shapes, or they can be. They take up a lot of space in those landfills. So they take up a lot of space and they don't break down to free up space for, again, centuries, which someone pointed out, I believe, that essentially every piece of Styrofoam that was ever made is still around in some shape or form on Earth.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And that's not the kind of like, staying power that should inspire you.

[Josh Clark]

Right. Well, the thing, something that stuck out to me, Chuck, when you said earlier about how they're derived from petrol, petrochemicals, the fact that styrene is found in petroleum. Petroleum is compressed, ancient plant matter. Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So that styrene that was originally in plants is still around millions and millions of years later in the petroleum that we're extracting from the ground. That just goes to show you the kind of staying power that thing has.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Wow, that's incredible.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Because of all these problems, of course, there's been many movements over the years to get rid of. Depends on the state you live in, probably. Or maybe even the community that you live in. What kinds of bans have been put into place? I think Berkeley, California, no surprise. And Suffolk County, New York, again, no surprise, were the first communities in the 1980s to put a ban in place for this stuff. Fourteen different states have enacted bans on Styrofoam. They don't always hold up because, of course, you've got these companies that are gonna fight them tooth and nail, like you said, fight them in court. You've also got city governments that aren't necessarily gonna enforce stuff too. Right.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. They tend to be very shy about getting sued, especially when their budgets are kind of tight. Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So if you're a big, bad plastic company, apparently Dark Container is. Is one of the. The more aggressive players in this. In lobbying for Styrofoam to stick around. All you have to do is show up and be like, you know, we would hate to sue you guys into bankruptcy. It seems like a really nice town. And that city is going to be like, I don't even remember the Styrofoam ban you're talking about.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Or we'd hate to close down these warehouses that employ people in your state.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

Which is what they did in Maryland. They. Maryland banned the foam, and The Dark Container Company shut down two warehouses there, employed close to 100 workers. And that is how they play that game.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, they did it in California, too. In 2024, they put 175 of their workers out of work. And they always say, well, it's because of this ban. What I understand these bans don't affect, like, warehousing or transportation of this stuff within the state or outside of the state. It just seems like it's a vindictive.

[Chuck Bryant]

Move and probably helps her bottom line, I would imagine, in some way, I guess.

[Josh Clark]

I don't know. But from what I understand, the aggressive lobbying that they engage in, I don't know, it seems like, I mean, they really want Styrofoam to stick around, and they're fighting a tougher and tougher battle each year now.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I think what I meant was I bet they're not financially hurting their company by shuttering these warehouses.

[Josh Clark]

No, I'm sure not. I'm sure not. I'm sure even if they do, it's neglig, you know, to punish a state into submission.

[Chuck Bryant]

There's also pressure campaigns. You know, McDonald's was one of the early ones in the 1980s, and I guess if they quit it in the 90s, it was kind of fully in the 80s when people, like human beings Would, you know, protest or just sort of raise a ruckus over this stuff. And they got together and there were a few tries at like, hey.

[Livia]

You.

[Chuck Bryant]

Shouldn'T worry about it too much because we do it this way. We only use this much. They really wanted to hang onto them. But finally, like you mentioned in 1990, they said, all right, we'll use paper. And, you know, you should be housing that cheeseburger the second it gets into your car anyway, right?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, pretty much. I mean, just tell them to put it in your hands without even a paper wrapper.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I mean, I guess if you gotta get it and you can't eat it in your car, you have to carry it somewhere. It's not gonna be as hot, but I don't know. Housing fast food in the car is a rich tradition that needs to be upheld.

[Josh Clark]

For sure. Ever since there were cars and ever since there were fast food.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. How else are you gonna find three year old french fries under your car seat when you vacuum it that look exactly the same as they did the day they got down there?

[Josh Clark]

They don't taste quite the same, but they do look like it, don't they?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So a lot of people say, okay, well, we got all this polystyrene, and it does provide a lot of benefits. Even though it seems like the health and environmental benefits are kind of racking up against it, maybe there's something we can do to recycle it instead. And kind of at the outset, you were pointing out just how hard it is to recycle this stuff. And one reason why it's so hard is because these are big, oftentimes bulky items, especially when you put a bunch of stuff. I mean, you can attest if Emily's.

[Chuck Bryant]

Collecting stuff, it's a nightmare.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it takes up a lot of space. Even though it's all light. You could lift all of it with one hand, but it takes up a lot of space. Right. So if you have a truck that is spending a bunch of money on gas to haul recyclables to a recycling center, and then they get paid for that load in return, that Styrofoam, I mean, they get paid by the pound. So that styrofoam takes up a whole truck, but it does not add up to a lot of money. So no one wants to haul this stuff. That's one problem. And that problem also belies an pro Styrofoam argument that you'll frequently run into, and that is that it has a small carbon footprint because it's so light. It takes so little gas and fuel of all kinds to transport it by ocean rail truck. The problem is you still have that bulky thing. So you actually are probably hiring more transportation to move Styrofoam stuff because yeah, it's light, but it takes up a lot of space in the truck. So I think that that's kind of an disingenuous argument in favor of Styrofoam.

[Chuck Bryant]

I think you're probably right. Another problem with recycling it is a lot of the foams will have pigments in them. They might be colored or they may have flame retardants that make it not as or completely unrecyclable, along with food contamination. And then like I mentioned at the beginning, just the cost of this, it's pretty cheap to make. So there's not a lot of incentives for company to try and recycle it. There's a little more promise in upcycling it by breaking it down into its various chemical constituents, some of which have some pretty high value. But as far as recycling, it just doesn't make a lot of cost effective sense for a company or a recycling firm.

[Josh Clark]

Right. I was reading a JSTOR Daily article on this and they profiled a, a company in Oregon called Agilix and they up upcycle Styrofoam into petroleum again. They turn it back into to crude oil, which can in turn be used for like jet fuel and other like really high quality fuels. But that they're definitely not, they're in the minority as far as recycling companies go.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. Another thing, if you're, you know, into helping the environment and recycling and stuff like that, don't be fooled just because you see the little chasing arrows recycling symbol. Because that is on so many things you have to look at the number and then know what that number means. And you know, you can look all that stuff up. But ones and twos are generally, although not entirely consistently recycled. They have the best chance of being recycled. But something with a number six on it, it's probably not being recycled.

[Josh Clark]

No, that's polystyrene's number. And it, I mean for all the reasons we just said it, like you said, it's probably not being recycled. And apparently some environmentalists say that whole chasing arrows application for the plastics was basically made up by plastic companies to make you feel like, okay, this thing can be recycled. I don't have to feel bad about using it for two minutes and then throwing it away.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So there are, like I said up until very recently, styrofoam was considered to be non biodegradable, and there are not many things, including plastics, that are not biodegradable. Right. They're starting to find that there are some microbes out there that have an ability to break it down. Apparently they're found in the guts of mealworms, waxworms, some kinds of insect larvae, and that these things will feed on Styrofoam and they will break it down so thoroughly that you could actually eat these worms afterwards. It's just metabolized into harmless stuff. And even the solid waste they excrete just keep it in the soil and eat food grown from the soil. The problem is, this is a really new kind of revelation, as far as I know. And it takes a lot of those things to break down Styrofoam. And. And we're making way more Styrofoam than these worms can possibly handle.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. The size of that worm farm would be tremendously large. But you did find. I mean, boy, you texted me yesterday that something can actually melt Styrofoam. I'm going to let you say what it is, but my question, my friend, is, is there an application for that or is that just a factoid?

[Josh Clark]

It's just something you can do, like if you. I hate packing peanuts, and so I've done this before with them, but it's a slog, so probably people aren't going to actually do it. But any organic solvent, and in particular acetone, that's the one I've always used, can dissolve Styrofoam into basically nothing. You can take an entire beanbag chair worth of pellets and melt it all down into nothingness in a cup of acetone. It's really neat to see and.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, just like very slowly adding it in. Yes.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, yeah. Little by little. But it doesn't take very long for it to break down. It's not like instantly dissolving, but it's not days or anything like that either.

[Chuck Bryant]

And doesn't that create probably some awful thing? I mean, you don't want to chase that down out of the solo cup, right?

[Josh Clark]

No, I still have that mason jar of acetone with Styrofoam in it because I have no idea what to do with it now.

[Chuck Bryant]

I think you just bury it in the backyard and forget about it.

[Josh Clark]

I'll just drop it off at a number six recycling center.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, great.

[Josh Clark]

You got anything else about Styrofoam?

[Chuck Bryant]

I got nothing else. Try and avoid it if you can.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

You know.

[Josh Clark]

Yep. Since Chuck told you to avoid Styrofoam. Obviously, everybody, that means it's time for listener mail.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. Promise to Billy Joel. And here we go. From Levi in Hangzhou, China. Was giving me a little bit of a break when I. When I bagged on one of my favorite performer songs, We Didn't Start the Fire, he said, chuck, you're in good company because Billy Joel himself has called We Didn't Start the Fire, the worst musical thing I've ever written, calling out the simplicity of its musical structure. Someone who has only recently gotten into his music, but has personally ranked all of his 117 studio recordings. Wow, you went hard. I tend to agree. Fun song, but it doesn't hold a candle to the rest of the catalog. As for his best and favorite, he cited Scenes from an Italian restaurant. Great song. And you may be right.

[Josh Clark]

I know that one.

[Chuck Bryant]

Great song off of Glass Houses.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Chuck Bryant]

It's two of his favorites. And if Josh hasn't heard Miami 2017, the one you mentioned, make sure he starts with the live version from the Songs in the Attic album Miles better than the studio version, in my opinion. Keep repping the piano man. And that is Levi in Hangzhou, China. And he sent a link to the YouTube of the Howard Stern appearance where Billy Joel called that his worst musical outing. And he was like, the lyrics are fine. He said, I don't hate the song, but he just said, musically, it's just very simplistic and not my best work.

[Josh Clark]

I mean, I think everybody can basically agree that.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. But, Mr. Joel, we wish you good health and recovery. You got a lot of fans thinking about you and your family right now.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, that's great, Chuck. I think that this Billy Joel saga should just continue. Every third, fourth, fifth listener mail should be about Billy Joel, I think.

[Chuck Bryant]

I hope so. And, you know, I didn't even mention the deep cut, so maybe we'll just surprise people here and there with those.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, just pay them out slowly, man. Patience.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

If you want to be like Levi and you're in China or anywhere else and want to get in touch with us about Billy Joel or anything else, you can, can send us an email to stuff podcastheartradio.com.

[Chuck Bryant]

Stuff you should know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Livia]

Horsepower zero to 60 times. These are among the benchmarks when considering a new vehicle. But Lexus believes there are some things, immeasurable things, that matter more. Awe, Exhilaration, Joy. How a cabin feels like it was crafted with you in mind. The way an engine note resonates with your soul. Because a car that doesn't make you feel something is a car that stops short of amazing. That's the standard of amazing Lexus Xperia.

[Josh Clark]

Our podcast is all about stuff you should know. So you should know that Indeed is the best way to find better work. Just update your Indeed profile with your skills, experience and salary expectations to increase your chances of finding your next role. We've spent years now going down rabbit holes on everything from champagne to true crime, but when it comes to finding a better job, you don't need to get lost in the search. Indeed makes it easy. See how the world can work better by updating your Indeed profile. No rabbit holes required.

[D]

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