Impression Management

Summary

Podcast Summary: Stuff You Should Know – Episode: Impression Management

Podcast Information:

• Title: Stuff You Should Know
• Host/Author: iHeartPodcasts
• Episode: Impression Management
• Release Date: June 5, 2025
• Description: Josh and Chuck delve into the intricacies of impression management, exploring sociological theories, human behavior, and the balance between authenticity and societal expectations.

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1. Introduction to Impression Management

The episode opens with Josh Clark and Chuck Bryant setting the stage for their discussion on impression management. Chuck humorously reflects on his unexpected interest in sociology, stating, “The more I’ve done this show over the years, the more I realize that I could have been a sociologist” ([02:03]).

2. Erving Goffman's Dramaturgical Theory

Josh introduces Erving Goffman, a seminal sociologist who pioneered the concept of dramaturgical theory. Chuck elaborates on Goffman's work, noting, “He wrote a book in 1956 called The Presentation of Self in Everyday Life. ... the International Sociological Association named it as the 10th most important sociology book of the 20th century” ([09:02]).

Notable Quote: Josh: “... conversations are essentially performances that two people share and do for one another that helps create a version of ourselves that we kind of walk around with.” ([05:04])

3. Self-Presentation and Facework

The hosts delve into self-presentation, discussing how individuals manage their impressions in various social settings. Chuck shares personal insights: “I used to leave an interaction with somebody or something like Emily and be like, God, just social cluelessness is such a turnoff for me” ([06:04]).

Notable Quote: Josh: “... you don't even have to think about it, and they're just great, basically, across the board.” ([07:05])

4. Modern Implications and Examples

Josh and Chuck explore how impression management plays out in everyday scenarios, such as elevator interactions and grocery store encounters. They reference studies and real-life examples to illustrate how people navigate social expectations.

Notable Quote: Chuck: “If you're at this thing, I gotta present really well... how am I being perceived? And then what do I need to do to change that?” ([34:08])

5. Stigma and Impression Management

The discussion shifts to stigma and how impression management serves as a tool to navigate societal prejudices. Chuck touches on the challenges faced by marginalized groups: “... if you have a mental illness or any sort of thing, a disability or if you are unhoused or you're obese or a drug user, that all just lumps you in as a thing” ([55:15]).

6. Authenticity vs. Performance

Josh and Chuck debate the fine line between authentic self-expression and performative behavior. They emphasize that engaging in impression management doesn’t equate to inauthenticity.

Notable Quote: Josh: “Just because you're doing this doesn't mean you're a phony or inauthentic. You're just drawing on the parts of yourself that are already there...” ([17:36])

7. Neurodiversity and Masking

Addressing neurodiversity, the hosts discuss how individuals with autism or other neurodivergent conditions may engage in masking as a form of impression management. They differentiate between general impression management and the specific challenges faced by those who mask their true selves.

Notable Quote: Chuck: “Impression management is a tool that people can use to get over or hide those stigmatized features.” ([56:48])

8. Listener Interaction and Closing

Towards the end, Chuck shares a listener's email about popcorn and Montezuma's Revenge, illustrating how audience engagement enriches their discussions. The episode concludes with the hosts reiterating the importance of empathy and understanding in navigating impression management.

Notable Quote: Josh: “If you want to develop a familiarity and empathy for people with autism, I think you could do a lot worse than Starting with Love on the Spectrum...” ([59:43])

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Key Takeaways:

• Impression Management: The conscious or subconscious efforts individuals make to influence how others perceive them.
• Dramaturgical Theory: A framework by Erving Goffman comparing social interactions to theatrical performances, emphasizing roles and scripts.
• Self-Presentation: Strategies people use to present themselves in various social contexts to achieve desired perceptions.
• Facework: Efforts to maintain one's self-esteem and avoid embarrassment in social interactions.
• Stigma: Social disapproval and discrimination that affect how individuals manage their impressions, especially those from marginalized groups.
• Authenticity vs. Performance: Balancing genuine self-expression with societal expectations without compromising one's true identity.
• Neurodiversity: Understanding how impression management intersects with neurodivergent experiences, particularly through masking behaviors.

Conclusion:

Josh and Chuck provide a comprehensive exploration of impression management, blending sociological theory with relatable anecdotes. They underscore the pervasive nature of impression management in daily life while advocating for greater empathy and understanding, especially towards those facing social stigmas or navigating neurodiversity.

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Note: This summary excludes promotional segments and focuses solely on the episode's main content, ensuring clarity and depth for those who haven't listened to the podcast.

Transcript

[Chuck Bryant]

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[Josh Clark]

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck. And Jerry's here too. And we're putting on our best faces in this episode of Stuff youf Should Know.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right, Our front stage self.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And speak. Speaking of stage, Chuck, I have a great intro to this. I believe it was Rush who first said, all the world's a stage and the men and women on it are merely players or something like that.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Performers and portrayers.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Each another's audience.

[Josh Clark]

Is that what he says? I never knew. And I've never bothered to look up the lyrics because there's definitely some words in there. I'm like, I don't know what Geddy Lee just said.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I think I'm pretty sure that's right.

[Josh Clark]

It's a great, great song, Limelight. Very well written, very original stuff. Yeah. So we're talking about impression management today, right?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yes, sir.

[Josh Clark]

And what do you think about it?

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, I think that I just. The more I've done this show over the years, the more I realize that I could have been a sociologist.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Man, this stuff fascinates me to no end. I took one sociology class in college and that's it. And I remember at the time when very little outside of English major classes interested me, I was like, man, this is super interesting to me, but not enough to pursue it. But human behaviors is endlessly fascinating to me.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And one of the things Sociology gets beat up and edged out and elbowed in the face by psychology a lot. Unfairly, I think, too.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I'm not talking about social psychology.

[Josh Clark]

No.

[Chuck Bryant]

Just to be clear.

[Josh Clark]

Sociology, yeah. And if sociology started out, we should say basically examining massive institutions. It was macro sociology, religion, like economics, politics, that kind of stuff, and just how people behaved and interacted or how people came together to form these institutions. And then the guy we're going to talk about today came along. He's like, let's kind of zoom in a little more. And like you were saying, he kicked off this. This type of sociology that examines, like, people, just interactions, very small interactions that sometimes we don't even know what we're doing. And apparently you're very interested in that.

[Chuck Bryant]

I am. And you know what? It seems like the more I've learned about Erving Goffman through today's research and, you know, researching him a little further, like, he's a Canadian American sociologist and this is like the mid 20th century 1950s.ish. When he started doing a lot of this work, he seems to me like someone who was just fascinated by human behavior even more, even in a way that like, other sociologists weren't, especially at the time.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And he also, I read that he developed like a real sympathy for the people who were pushed to the fringes of society unfairly, basically, across the board. So he was not only like a really good sociologist and, and very intuitive. And apparently he had a really interesting writing style too. He loved a good turn of phrase. He was also like a very empathetic, good person, from what I can tell.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, man, I'm so glad I didn't hook my wagon to the wrong dude, right?

[Josh Clark]

No, you hooked it to the right guy.

[Chuck Bryant]

When it's somebody from the 1950s, you never know what's going to happen there. We should probably say what we're talking about, though, impression management or self presentation or perception management is basically. These are terms that he came up with, all of these, essentially. And it's just how you present to others. And we'll get into the nuts and bolts of it. But how much you might think about that, how much is automatic, how much is intuition, how much of it is authenticity? It's super fascinating to me. I love this stuff.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And a lot of it. I mean, when we start talking about it too, it'll just seem very common sense. Like, yeah, of course you're going to, you know, mind your p's and q's and sit up straight and be Friendly in a job interview. And that is a type of impression management. But it is way more granular than that to the point where, like, if you're into language, linguistics, that kind of thing, the entire purpose of a conversation is to exchange information. Like, I know this now I'm sharing it with you. Another person says, thank you very much. And that's what a conversation is for as far as impression management goes. And Erving Goffman and his ilk. Conversations are essentially performances that two people share and do for one another that helps create a version of ourselves that we kind of walk around with, and that that changes. And there's very little point to a conversation other than that it's a. It's a radically different view of things.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I also think it's interesting, and this is all just precursor stuff that we're babbling on about. But when you said it just seems like instinct or whatever, would you say common sense to do these things? Not everybody, my friend. And that is something that I've gotten better about over the years. It used to be something that really bothered me. And I would leave an interaction with somebody or something with Emily and be like, God, just social cluelessness is such a turnoff for me. Like, read the room, buddy. That kind of thing. But then the more I've gotten older and the more we've all learned about different neurodiversities, I've definitely found myself in a place where I try to be like, hey, I don't know what this person's deal is. They may be struggling just to present themselves as passing or masking. And we're going to talk about all this stuff and a situation just just to sort of get by. So I try to really keep that stuff in mind these days, for sure.

[Josh Clark]

And I feel like there's. There's different tranches.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

There's the one you just described. There's people who. This is so effortless, too. They don't even have to think about it, and they're just great, basically, across the board. Then there's everybody else in the middle. Some people in the middle are better at it than others. Some people think too hard about it and they become obvious and clumsy. And essentially, though no one can escape it, I think is my point, there's nobody out there who doesn't engage in some sort of impression management. Essentially their entire lives.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And neurodiversities aside, again, which we'll talk about, there are also people who aren't neurodivergent, who are just clueless, a holes And I have found too, in my life that I believe narcissism plays a part. I think narcissists have a much harder time because they're generally just have their heads up their own butts and are so about the self that they are often the ones that I found if they don't have some sort of neurodivergence, that's the reason why they are like they are. It may be because of narcissism, because usually the reply after someone is like, read the room, buddy. They're like, what? What?

[Josh Clark]

I'm perfect. What do you mean, read the room? You read the room.

[Chuck Bryant]

Exactly.

[Josh Clark]

So let's get into it. And we'll start with Goffman and where he got his start again. This is Erving Goffman, groundbreaking sociologist. He started off doing fieldwork in a Scottish village, and rather than figuring out how the city council worked for that or the village elders basically kept everybody in line. He just enmeshed himself in the village and just paid attention to how people interacted with one another. And really, like, that's a very anthropological way of studying. It was very. Not how they did it at the time among sociologists. So he was groundbreaking. He essentially went like, I'm going to take this field and just take it in a different direction. So let's go.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. He wrote a book in 1956 called the Presentation of Self in Everyday Life. What a great title. No colons. It's exactly what it says. It is a very big book in the world of sociology, and the International Sociological association named it as the 10th most important sociology book of the 20th century. And in this book is where he touched on what you talked about with this sort of performance aspect of our everyday lives. He didn't invent it. It was an existing concept. But dramaturgical theory, which is what you said, we're all sort of operating on a social script, sort of like the Terminator. It's pretty limited. You don't have endless options. You're like, maybe you should say one of these four things. At this dinner party. When someone brings up a thing, and even if it's a brand new situation, you're drawing on the scripts that you've used over and over in your life to work out how to interact in the scene.

[Josh Clark]

Right. Yeah. And it's also. Yeah. It's been shaped by interactions with other people. It's shaped by what you've seen on tv, which can be very dangerous because stuff that's like hilarious on a sitcom does not necessarily translate well into real life. It's like you're being a huge jerk or you're not really that funny. In the case of somebody who models themselves after friends.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Like pull my finger doesn't always break the ice.

[Josh Clark]

No, pull my finger always works.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay, great.

[Josh Clark]

But yeah, so what his point was in this dramaturgical theory, and like you said, he didn't invent it. But if you look into it, he's basically like, he's the guy who took it and ran with it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

No matter where you are you're performing, and depending on where you are you're going, your performance is going to be different. Right. So if you're sitting there at school, you're going to act different than you do at a bar. Yeah, right, sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

Ideally.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. You would hope for sure. And then if you're at work, you know, you're going to act a little different from that too. And it's essentially even when you're hanging out with your closest friends, sociologists believe that you're still performing in some way, shape or form, just probably less than you normally do.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And some think even when you're by yourself, that that still informs how you talk to your little person on your shoulder.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

Which is really interesting. He talked about appearance and like clothing even, and how they will convey. And when we say actor, we're just talking about a person. But in his context of it all being a performance, he called them actors. But, you know, your costume that you put on is gonna convey like maybe your social status, maybe what kind of job you have. There's, you know, there's that outward appearance and then there's the manner in which you deal with someone. And obeying the sort of societal rules is in a social situation is a big time thing. And if you start to do things that don't comply with what people generally expect at a dinner party or on an elevator or something like that, it can upset people around you. I think the interesting thing that I took from that is, I mean, that's kind of common sense. But when you're writing a screenplay or something, like dramatic writing or a play, the most interesting characters are usually people that do things that surprise you or that fly in the face of maybe a social norm or make a decision that's unexpected. So I think it's interesting that in drama it makes for very compelling characters, but in real life we kind of don't want that generally.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, like the manic pixie dream girl. Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

I don't know what you mean by that. I mean, I know what that term means, but I don't know how it relates to this.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, they're always doing, like, crazy stuff that makes the protagonist dude fall in love with them or whatever.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I gotcha. So in terms of a script, it might be engaging even within the world of the script. Whereas in real life, I don't know, a man at Pixie Dream Girl might go over, but the person saying, pull my finger at the dinner party may not.

[Josh Clark]

Well, it's funny that you say drama too. Because to me, where my mind went was comedy. Like almost all comedy is a person behaving in a way that violates the situation that they're in, Violates the scene and the script that they're supposed to be saying. That's all from Adam Sandler to late Adam Sandler. It's all basically that.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mean, that's the basis of joke telling, really is. The unexpected thing happens. Super interesting.

[Josh Clark]

And then one other thing too. He made a really good point. He said that the characters or the people who are interacting and again, just essentially performing that they're trying to come to a common definition of the situation is what he called it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, that expected norm.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And so, like, if you see, say, a scene on tv, it's just such a perfect analogy because that's essentially what he's talking about. And there's just one dude standing at a bus stop and it's a businessman. Say that scene is in a superposition. It hasn't been defined yet because there's only one person. And by the entrance of the next person, that's when the scene will start to be defined. And if it's that guy's boss, he's gonna act totally different than if it's a pickpocket or something like that. So the scene hasn't been defined yet. But regardless of how it ends up, like what scene it is, both are playing their role essentially, that we just innately know. Almost not innately. Cause it's learned, but it becomes just second nature for most people.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. He also thought that there's obviously verbal and non verbal parts to this with body language and how you dress and all that stuff. But Goffman himself thought that the nonverbal part. Did I say non purple?

[Josh Clark]

If you did, it was lost on me. But I like non purple more.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay. I think I might have said non purple anyway. Which is basically every other color but purple.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

He thought the non verbal part was the most significant because it's harder to fake, which I think Is pretty interesting. Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, for sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

And then also while you're performing, quote, unquote, again, do we need to keep saying that people know what we mean? Right?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I mean, we could just say interacting with another person.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. While you're interacting as the actor.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

You may be aware that you have, like, a goal in mind. Like, I gotta, you know, I'm at this thing, I gotta present really well. Or you may not.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. You may not have a goal. It may be, as we'll see, you're just trying to keep from freaking the other person out. You know, like, you're not trying to get anywhere. You're not trying to advance or get something from the person or make somebody think that you're great, but just. Just being engaged, forced into a social interaction like that you have to perform a certain way or else the other person is going to. To be weirded out, is going to want to get away from you. Sometimes people get really upset when somebody violates norms. And I think you can really. You can. This explains it a lot. Because it's like someone is expecting somebody to behave in a certain way. That person purposefully doesn't behave in that way. Then the people around them might get angry at that person, even though they might just be being themselves.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Or get scared. Like, you know, when you get on an elevator by yourself and there's only one person on there, you act in a certain way as a. Almost way to say you're safe right now. Like, you don't need to worry about me. I'm just going to my room. I'm not gonna. I'm not that guy. That's gonna be some weirdo on the elevator. I promise you're okay.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Or even, like, try to strike up a conversation. Like, that's. That's unnerving and disarming.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mean, I think definitely not as much for me as for some people. Cause I was raised in the South. I'm more used to that. And definitely also in an enclosed space like an elevator, the norms are much different than, like, walking down the street or something.

[Josh Clark]

For sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

You know, you're trapped basically in that little box.

[Josh Clark]

Right? Yeah. You have a captive audience.

[Chuck Bryant]

And now I'm panicking.

[Josh Clark]

So just to kind of wrap up the whole dramaturgical theory part, Goffman said we have our front stage selves, which I think you referred to earlier. Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's us right now. And that's what we do on our job every day.

[Josh Clark]

Okay. Yeah. But I feel like we're not that much different in real life.

[Chuck Bryant]

No, I think you're right. I mean, that's one of the reasons this show works, I think, and why a lot of podcasts work is cause people are their more true selves. But it's also sort of the best version of our true self. Like, we're not the jerks that we can be in real life.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And that's a really great point that we'll see later. Like, just because you're doing this doesn't mean you're a phony or inauthentic. You're just drawing on the parts of yourself that are already there, that apply to the situation best in presenting those.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, totally. And I said we. I meant me. You're not a jerk. So I'm just speaking for myself.

[Josh Clark]

Hey, man, I'm always happy to be included with you. I'm along for the ride.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, everybody can be like that here and there. That's all I'm saying.

[Josh Clark]

Right, right. I know what you're saying. You don't have to explain it to me.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right. I was explaining it so everyone else didn't think I was just dragging you down with me.

[Josh Clark]

So you got front stage selves. This is when you're on stage. You're really out there. There's backstage when you're hanging with your homies.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Homeboys.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Homegirls.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And just general homies. Maybe your family, if you get along with your family and you might feel comfortable and calm around them. So that would be your backstage.

[Chuck Bryant]

Nice caveat.

[Josh Clark]

But note this. He's not saying front stage self and then yourself. It's still a backstage self. You're still attached to the stage. You're still in the theater.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Even when you're hanging out with your homies.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, that's true. And then there's the offstage. And that is when it's just one on one.

[Josh Clark]

This is the best.

[Chuck Bryant]

And that's still a kind of performance.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. This example is just so. It just nails it when you're a teacher and you see your student at the grocery store. Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

See him irl.

[Josh Clark]

That's like. That's just such a jarring thing to see as a kid.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, man. And it's thrilling. It's exciting. Because they don't exist outside of that role.

[Josh Clark]

No, exactly. So now you see them and they're not dressed like they normally are.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, man.

[Josh Clark]

They're friendly to your mom or something like that. And then they're buying olives, too. And they look like they're really into figuring out which olives they want. Right. So that's just, just for the kid, for the teacher. You still have to comport yourself in a way that's like, you know, I'm not going to just start cussing in front of the student and just talk like I might normally talk. I still have to pretend or act like I do when I'm this kid's teacher. But that still it's like a, it doesn't necessarily fit the grocery store stage. So that teacher's in a really weird position. Right. Then that would be off stage interactions.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[Josh Clark]

I love that one.

[Chuck Bryant]

Time for a break.

[Josh Clark]

Yes.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, we're just getting cooking everybody. So come back more if you want to learn more about yourself right after this.

[Josh Clark]

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[Chuck Bryant]

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[Josh Clark]

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[Josh Clark]

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[Chuck Bryant]

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[Josh Clark]

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[Chuck Bryant]

Just go to squarespace.com stuff and you can get a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use our offer code stuff to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. All right, so one of the keys to Goffman's theory is how important it is to avoid being embarrassed or embarrassing others. You talked about face work, like saving face or losing face, not wanting to be embarrassed. But also he wrote about just your facial expressions, especially in terms of how you disagree with somebody. Even if you say the words that you think are the right way to disagree with someone, but your face says wtf like that conveys a confusing message. So even the facial expressions you make have to be considered.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it's that speech plus nonverbal that equals your performance, right? Yeah, yeah. It's funny to see people who are trying to say something but their facial expression just doesn't match up.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I mean, that's a problem I've had to work on in my own marriage with not being the best communicator, which is Emily being like, well, you're saying one thing, but that's not what I'm getting.

[Josh Clark]

And I'm like, yeah, no, I don't want to play Red Dead Redemption.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, that's always true. The opposite. That is.

[Josh Clark]

Right. So the other point of that, in addition to that non verbal use of face, you said also you're trying to help people save face. Right. So I said earlier that you might be forced into a social to act in a social situation. A certain way just because you don't want to freak out your friend's mom who you saw at the mall by acting bizarrely or, you know, in a different way than you should. Similarly, if your friend's mom at the mall falls, like slips and falls in the middle of the mall and is embarrassed, you are going to do something that your performance calls for you to do something to help her save face as well. That's part of facework too.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. And facework is another dramatic term.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, is it? I didn't know that.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I think facework and bodywork, that's all a drama thing.

[Josh Clark]

That makes sense. Is there a thought learning how to.

[Chuck Bryant]

Move within your space? Yeah, private parts work.

[Josh Clark]

That's awesome.

[Chuck Bryant]

So to Goffman, it could be an obvious thing, like if you're on a first date or something like that, or like you mentioned earlier, job interview, that's the super obvious situation. But a lot of times it's really everyday interactions still count. And there's a philosopher named Lucy McDonald who was writing about, like, when somebody falls down in public, almost always the very first thing that'll happen is that person will look around to see if anyone saw them. And based on that, it's gonna change their reaction. And it reminded me of that story I've told before about in college when I saw the guy bust his butt on a bike in Athens, right? And the books went spilling all over the sidewalk. And this dude just opened one of the books, laying on his side with his bike wheel spinning, act like he was reading it. And it's one of the funniest things I've ever seen. And then the other day on my new bike, I tried to do a wheel slide in a gravel parking lot and I. I busted my butt and fell. I didn't go, you know, ass over apple cart, but I hit the dirt. And the first thing I did as a 54 year old was look up and see if anybody saw me.

[Josh Clark]

You didn't jump up and say, I meant to do that?

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, if somebody had seen me, I would have, but nobody saw me, so I just sat there and was like, nuts, right?

[Josh Clark]

So if you do that, like say, if people do see you, you might like look back, like closely at the ground, like, what did I discover?

[Chuck Bryant]

What's wrong with this bike?

[Josh Clark]

Or you might say, like, I hate Mondays or something like that. And what you're doing is something you mentioned earlier. You're reassuring people like, I'm not a threat to you or to the social order. That was just A total accident.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And it might seem like that person is overly self conscious or something like that, or they might be a little neurotic to feel like they have to do that. But the philosopher Lucy McDonald that you mentioned also points out that that's actually not what's going on, that everybody feels like they need to do that and that it's a rational response to the social expectations that we have of one another. So it just kind of reveals this social intelligence that most people have that is you don't even know that you're doing in a lot of cases and that you feel even compelled to do internally. Like, when I do that, if I'm so embarrassed, I will blur something out like, oops or I hate Mondays, and it feels like it's coming up from, you know, my gut and then out of my mouth, like, it's not something where I'm like, I better say something really quick.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, totally.

[Josh Clark]

It's just an involuntary reaction, essentially because it's so ingrained.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Because you're not a sociopath.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I like to think so.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I like to think so too. It's funny thinking about that guy in Athens that fell. He didn't even look around because it wasn't like, oh, did someone see me? Because hundreds of people for sure saw him. It was like a crowded campus. So I felt bad for the guy, but it was hysterical. And one day I'm gonna meet that person, I think.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I wonder what he's doing now.

[Chuck Bryant]

Can you imagine if I was at a party one day and somebody was telling that story? Like, one time in college, I wrecked my bike and acted like I was reading a book.

[Josh Clark]

What would you do? Would you buy him something?

[Chuck Bryant]

I would hug him immediately and be like, I saw that. And I've been telling that story for 40 years.

[Josh Clark]

That's great.

[Chuck Bryant]

40? No, not even 30.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, 30 is about right.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And he would be like, I'm not a hugger. Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Then I've screwed up yet again.

[Josh Clark]

So I said that when people fall and they're saying like, oops or I hate Mondays or they're looking at the crack or they're going through their book, whatever, they're reassuring people that they're actually normal. And the norm in countries like the US Say in the west is what's called civil inattention. To where you ideally, you acknowledge the presence, the existence of another person so that you're. You're on a subway with.

[Chuck Bryant]

And that's where it ends.

[Josh Clark]

And then. Yeah, it ends there. Right. Something that I find dismaying is I see more and more that acknowledgement doesn't even happen. It's just totally ignoring one another. And that man, that gets me. Especially if you nod at somebody else and they just ignore you. I think that is awful.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mean, not to be old man here, but cell phones and smartphones have definitely played a part in that, I think, because people escape into the comfort of like, well, I'll just look at this instead.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, yeah. And they're just like, oh, what's on my phone?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mean, if you were raised in the south or have lived in the south, then you're more comfortable with more acknowledgment and maybe even a brief conversation with a stranger.

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

That can be very off putting for people that aren't used to that. So I try to remember that when I am in a. Maybe have had a drink or two and I struck up a conversation with.

[Josh Clark]

Someone I don't know on an elevator.

[Chuck Bryant]

I've done that too. I did it last week, in fact.

[Josh Clark]

So speaking of elevators, Chuck, you mentioned going into an elevator and turning around and what a violation of the social order that is. The elevator is this perfect little encapsulation for sociologists.

[Chuck Bryant]

No man to study.

[Josh Clark]

Because we just know what to do. When somebody gets on an elevator and there's already people on there, everybody spreads out, rearranges themselves to make room for this person in their personal space. And it's not like we're like, okay, I'm going to go over here. You go here. And then when somebody. Next person comes on, you get off, and then this person's going to go where you were. It just happens. And it's a beautiful synchronized effort. Right?

[Chuck Bryant]

It really is.

[Josh Clark]

But when sociologists get on elevators and they turn around, there's an apocryphal story about Irving Goffman doing that and studying and people just flipping out by.

[Chuck Bryant]

No, they don't turn around. They just go straight in and stand there looking at the rear.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, right. Well put. So that's actually not just what sociologists like to do. It was like a big one on Candid Camera back in the day for a while.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And there was one Candid Camera episode where they did the opposite, where the elevator was already had a bunch of people on it, but they were facing the rear when the doors open. And the person who was being, I guess, pranked came on.

[Chuck Bryant]

I wouldn't get on that elevator car.

[Josh Clark]

So this person, they got on and they kind of looked like they didn't know what to do for a second. And then they turned and they faced the rear.

[Chuck Bryant]

I knew it. Wow. That's incredible.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. It's almost like they thought that they hadn't gotten the revised script pages that day and everybody else did, so they just needed to go along with it because they didn't want to upset the apple cart. Things had changed. This is not what they expected, but they weren't about to be the one who just stuck to the original norm and upset everybody else.

[Chuck Bryant]

Wow. Did they yell out, can I have the new sides, please? Someone to fly those in line? That's really funny, and that doesn't surprise me. And I bet the live audience at Canon Camera just got a big old Hootie laugh on that one man, that Allen Funt. So there was a guy named Harold Garfinkel, another sociologist, that would. I mean, he called them breaching experiments, but it's really messing with people. And he did things like that, like sit down on the escalator or just like, point at somebody. And I'm not a big fan of those kind of experiments.

[Josh Clark]

No, but they're all over YouTube, people doing that. I bet it's pretty funny. But, yeah, if you're ever in a mall and somebody sits down in an escalator or whatever, it's probably a sociologist.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. If not, just politely go in the other direction.

[Josh Clark]

Well, no, that's why you carry a water gun around with you. You just squirt him in the face a few times and say, stand up, Super Soaker. So there's ways that we figure out how to perform, because, like I said, a lot of it just seems ingrained. A lot of it requires thought, too, especially if you're trying. If you have a goal, like you're trying to become a member of a country club, which, you know, everybody's been through that.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And these two researchers, they were psychologists back in 1990, Mark Lurie and Robin Kowalski. They basically figured out how we do this kind of stuff, and they broke it into two things. There was impression motivation, why you're doing this, an impression construction, how you're doing this.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And as far as motivation, it's based on a few factors. One is how relevant a person thinks their image is to achieve this goal. So in other words, does it really matter here how I'm acting to get what I want, how valuable the goal is? Which is, this is something I really want. Am I trying to get a job or just whatever. Something a little less stakes. And then finally, the extent to which they believe they're not currently being perceived in the most useful way. In other words, how much do I need to pour it on here to get what I want?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Like how am I being perceived? And then what do I need to do to change that?

[Josh Clark]

Right, exactly. So you put all those together and that's your motivation for figuring out some impression management. Again, this is the ones where you're like actually giving thought to it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

In impression construction, how you actually carry this stuff out, they broke into five little parts. One is your self concept. Right. So you're going to base how you carry this out on how you feel you are. So you're trying. You're starting with your authentic self, ideally. Right. Because people value authenticity. People don't want to just keep up a lie. Again, that's a half hour sitcom right there. Because it always crumbles. It always crumbles. Everybody in real life and on sitcoms.

[Chuck Bryant]

In 22 minutes and then it gets resolved.

[Josh Clark]

Right, exactly. So your self concept is where you're going to start and you're going to kind of draw from that. Imagine a big steamer trunk on stage that Carrot Top's going through. Just pulling a bunch of props out of. That's what you're doing. When you first start to figure this out, that's going through the steamer trunk of your self concept.

[Chuck Bryant]

Wait a minute. Are you saying right now we are Carrot Top?

[Josh Clark]

The entire world is all the world's a stage and we are merely Carrot Top Carrot tops.

[Chuck Bryant]

Then there's the desired identity. So you're trying to protect an identity and you base that on what you want people to think you like and don't like, or what you want to be or don't want to be.

[Josh Clark]

Right. So you might really try to distance yourself from something you don't want to identify with.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Like, oh, boy, how about that John Legend.

[Josh Clark]

That was random.

[Chuck Bryant]

And all that immense talent, like, get over it, buddy.

[Josh Clark]

You want to be very careful with this. This is one of those things that shows what a tightrope you can be walking when you're purposefully constructing impression management. If you're in that case yucking someone's yum, that can turn people off and ruin all of the other stuff that you just did. So it can backfire.

[Chuck Bryant]

Someone opens up their jacket and they're wearing the John Legend shirt.

[Josh Clark]

Right. Or you accidentally say it to John Legend because you didn't recognize him.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I don't know why I pulled him out. I know nothing much about him other than La La Land and the Fact that he's super talented.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, no, he was perfect. I mean, totally neutral. Everybody loves him. Like, it was just. That was great. Non controversial in almost any way.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. All right.

[Josh Clark]

He's managed to distance himself from his wife's public Persona, so, yeah. Non controversial.

[Chuck Bryant]

Who is she?

[Josh Clark]

Chrissy Teigen.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, I know that name, but I don't know much about her either.

[Josh Clark]

That's fine.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, moving on.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, so the next one is target value. And it's basically saying, like, you're just going to take those things from your steamer trunk of your authentic self and you're going to adorn yourself with the ones that make the most sense for this identity that you're trying to be viewed with.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, but based on what you think they want, right?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, but again, this is not where you're just like, you know, stealing stuff from other people and making it your own. You're going, ideally, you're going into your own authentic self and saying this one makes the most sense to what this person's going to expect or want.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, exactly. Like aligning yourself with someone else's values, ideally, stopping short of like, you know, doing something that's not inauthentic.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And there's one thing I think we should say at this point because it's really easy to just assume like, this is what everybody should be doing. And I think it's worth questioning. It's not inherently a good thing to change yourself or to rearrange yourself. It can be a bad thing, but it can also be a good thing too. So, yeah, just know we're not saying, like, you should be out doing this. You should really be thinking about what you have inside yourself that you can impress other people with. That's not what we're saying. But people do do that. And that falls under the umbrella of impression management.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. We're saying this is what Leary and Kowalski have noticed happens.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Blame it on them and the rain.

[Chuck Bryant]

And then there's current. Oh, I'm sorry, I skipped one, didn't I? Role constraints. Presenting yourself in a way that's. Well, that's kind of the same thing as target value, except target value is a little less that I want to align myself with what you may be into and a little more of just like the general expectations of a social role.

[Josh Clark]

Right. Like you would wear a top hat and a monocle to a meeting with a bunch of bankers because that's what they would expect you to do.

[Chuck Bryant]

Exactly.

[Josh Clark]

And then there's current social image, which is what you perceive of Yourself. And if other people. If you think other people perceive you in a way you don't like.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, There are some other techniques that they've, you know, that people can use. Flattery, of course, will get you everywhere. Ingratiation, stuff like that. Conforming to expectations. That's kind of like the other stuff, I think, like role constraints and stuff like that. And then a big one is like suppressing your emotion and maintaining your self control. Again, that doesn't mean to be inauthentic, but that just means, like, read the room. Is it time for me to be overly emotional about something or is it not? Do I need to kind of put a little on that for now? Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

If you're triggered and you have a temper because people are taking too long in the grocery store line, don't push a whole load of groceries back into an aisle and shout a curse word and storm out. No, I've seen it in real life, actually. Oh, I'm sure it's like, what's going on, buddy?

[Chuck Bryant]

It's hard to not think, just constantly, what's wrong with people. But you know what? The fact is, again, as I get older, there's a lot wrong with a lot of people. So I try to keep that in mind.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, everybody's got some sort of burden they're carrying, and some people are more vocal about it than others.

[Chuck Bryant]

I guess that's a very nice way to say it.

[Josh Clark]

Some people misproject it in the wrong way more loudly than others.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's another way to say it.

[Josh Clark]

There's also one called Basking in Reflected Glory, which is basically like hanging out with somebody who's a great example of the kind of self you want to be identified as. Yeah, not necessarily good. It's much better to blaze your own trail, make your own version. But I kind of. I get it. The one that's just not good at all is the downward comparison, which is putting someone down to show that you're not like them at all.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, that's not a good thing to do. And again, all of this convey. Like, to convey all this stuff, you gotta have pretty good cognitive empathy and pretty good self monitoring. You gotta be able to read the room, read social cues, regulate your emotions. And again, I think this is why people with, like, a narcissistic personality disorder may have a harder time, may have more difficulty doing stuff like this, for sure.

[Josh Clark]

Another break at 40 minutes in. Let's take our second break.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, we'll be back. This is gonna be a little beefy, guys, but we're into it learning stuff.

[Josh Clark]

From Joshua and Charles. Stuff you should know.

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This episode is sponsored by Liquid iv.

[Josh Clark]

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[Chuck Bryant]

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That's right. And my buddy, I have to tell you, I love Liquid iv. I use it a lot. It hydrates me very well. I love that lemon lime. It tastes really good and I put it in my little Dopp kit when I travel and I feel like I'm always pretty well hydrated.

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Your future is waiting. Go to Strawberry Me Stuff and claim a $50 credit. That's Strawberry Me Stuff. Because in three months, you'll either be exactly where you are now or you'll be ahead of where you ever thought. Okay, Chuck, so just real quick before we keep going on, it's worth mentioning that forming an online identity is essentially. It's like a whole new can of worms as far as sociology is concerned. We just couldn't do it before. And it allows you to do things, try on new things in ways that it was just impossible to previously.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. But yeah, that could be a shorty or something on its own, huh?

[Josh Clark]

For sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

Should we talk about authenticity, though, a little more?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Because again, this is. Everybody wants to be viewed as authentic. And just the fact that you've realized now that you're performing at all times can make you feel like you're not authentic. But we're here to tell you you're still authentic.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. There have been researchers that. I mean, it kind of depends. There are a lot of ways to. I don't like saying skin a cat anymore. To tackle the cat now. There's a lot of ways to pet the cat.

[Josh Clark]

We're not saying skin the cat anymore.

[Chuck Bryant]

I don't know, I mean, it just occurred to me. That's a pretty horrific thing to think about.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I don't know where that came from, but sure, either. I guess I can get on board with that. All right.

[Chuck Bryant]

There's a lot of ways to pet a cat. Actually, there's only one way, and that's with the grain. But anyway.

[Josh Clark]

How about skin your knee?

[Chuck Bryant]

Sure. There's a lot of ways to skin your knee. Like a 54 year old wrecking his new BMX bike.

[Josh Clark]

Exactly.

[Chuck Bryant]

Some people say there's a real distinction between self presentation, which is like the influence that you're feeling by pressure and the effort that you're putting out. And then self expression, which is your authentic self. But there are psychologists or, I'm sorry, I guess psychologists. In this case a guy named Barry R. Schlinker, who says that actually self presentation is. Everyone does it in all social interactions. Like, even if you're married, you're influencing each other and behaving in a certain way. It may not even require, like, attention, and probably doesn't if you're married. But it doesn't mean you're being inauthentic if you're still doing that kind of within your marriage.

[Josh Clark]

No. And even, like, within yourself. Like when we did the Inner Dialogue episode, we talked at some point about how even when you're talking to yourself, that inner voice is often shaped by external forces. And some sociologists say, yeah, even it goes even that far. That's how far the self is shaped by these scripts and these performances and everything that even when you're alone, you still might find yourself engaging in some performance or another.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And the stuff that we feel like is automatic, and you kind of touched on this earlier, is maybe not automatic. You may not even realize that this is stuff that you've been practicing your whole life. I think anyone who's ever had a kid has seen that kid practicing faces in the mirror. There's some. I mean, a very tropey movie scene is someone who practices a scene in the mirror of interacting with someone like, oh, let me get that chair for you. And practicing a smile. I mean, Nathan Fielder has a whole show about this called the Rehearsal. It's fascinating, man.

[Josh Clark]

I love that guy.

[Chuck Bryant]

Are you watching the new season yet?

[Josh Clark]

No, no. Is that the one that's an actual. Like, it's fiction?

[Chuck Bryant]

No, no, no. That was the one he did with Emma Stone. This is the Rehearsal, season two, which is. He sets up these elaborate rehearsals for everyday life stuff.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Chuck Bryant]

You should check out season one and then just steamroll into season two. It's fascinating sociological stuff.

[Josh Clark]

Nice. I definitely will.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Do you ever rehearse what you're going to say? I know you rehearse, like, what you're doing next. Like, if you're cooking something. You've said that before. But do you ever practice in your head what you're gonna say? Like, even mundane stuff, like, what am I gonna say to this convenience store clerk when I go to check out.

[Chuck Bryant]

No. All that stuff is pretty innate for me.

[Josh Clark]

That's very lucky.

[Chuck Bryant]

But again, maybe innate from years and years of practice.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it's possible. Or maybe you were just born with it. Maybe it's Maybelline. So you mentioned the automatic stuff that is essentially breathing. Like, if you look at how Schlenker describes it, he's describing the same thing as breathing. Like, it's just that automatic. And that automatic mode can be in a, like, high gear or low gear. And typically, if you're backstage hanging out with your friends, embarrassment again. The driver here is preventing embarrassment. Preventing from embarrassing yourself. Preventing embarrassing other people or making them feel embarrassed by association. Like you're preventing embarrassment. And one of the reasons why it's easier to hang out with people in your backstage mode is because the stakes are low. If you embarrass yourself, it doesn't matter nearly as much as if you embarrass yourself, you know, if you pee your pants in a job interview.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Although the funny, ironic thing for us is, and I believe anyone that performs on stage, literally backstage, sometimes can be some of the most anxious when people are sent back there, like, you know, oh, the company wants to send back these strangers. You don't know. That's almost the height for me of like, oh, boy, here I gotta turn on the chuck, you know.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And I just want to apologize for the group of Citibank card holders from, like, 10 years ago who we had a meet and greet with, and it was very awkward. So, sorry, guys. We never really got to say sorry.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's why we don't do meet and greets anymore. It's just. Yeah, we just want to be backstage with our homies.

[Josh Clark]

Exactly.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So there's also. We can also automatically go into a much more performative mode when the stakes get a little higher. But either way, it's still automatic. So Schlenker is like, nope, we're really kind of performing almost at all times. And then there was a scholar gender named Judith Butler. And by was, I mean is. And Judith Butler said, everything about you is shaped by sociological forces, including gender. That people learn how to behave according to what society says their gender is or what's expected of that gender. And that's just how we learn to behave certain ways according to gender.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mean, I'm sure there are plenty of grown men who have a story where they're like, when I was in the third grade, I played with dolls and I got made fun of. And because that wasn't the socially acceptable masculine construct. And from that day forward, I started doing things to where I fit in a little more on the playground. And that shaped how they are decades later, sometimes even.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it carried over from the playground into the rest of their life.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And this stuff is all changing for the better, I think. But it's still. It's not like it's been eradicated, you know?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And speaking of gender, too, I wondered if, you know, how some people are just deeply offended by people who are gender fluid. Like, to the point where you're like, what? You don't even know this person. Why do you hate this so much? It made me wonder, like, if the person who's so offended by it is upset because that other person is flagrantly violating a social script and it's making them and other people uncomfortable. And that brings up a further point, too. Which is more valuable? That person's authentic self? That they're gender fluid, or the comfort of everybody else, the strangers around them? Which one is more valuable? Who should win out in that case if there's a conflict like that?

[Chuck Bryant]

Absolutely. I mean, sadly, stuff like that is being literally litigated. But also the idea of changing social norms and, you know, if you're not rolling with the changes that are happening in society, you may find yourself on an island of inacceptance and loneliness. But that may be fine with you because you may want to be like, no, things were better the old way.

[Josh Clark]

At the same time, too, you can't change social norms without violating them. They tend to just kind of stay static. And to make them dynamic, they have to be violated. And anyone who's seen the movie Pleasantville knows that that can turn out pretty good.

[Chuck Bryant]

You may end up in color one day.

[Josh Clark]

Man, that was a good movie.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, that was pretty good. I haven't seen that in a while.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I saw it a couple years ago. I watch it every couple years.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, okay. I've only seen it once.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, you should keep watching. Just buy the dvd. Go old school.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right. I mean, there's a lot of movies that kind of dance around this stuff, like the Truman show and just, you know, I feel like this is just rife ground for comedy and drama.

[Josh Clark]

I agree, Chuck.

[Chuck Bryant]

Rife. Ripe.

[Josh Clark]

Ripe. Purple.

[Chuck Bryant]

So I mentioned neurodivergence earlier and just sort of my. And when I was doing this research, I had that awakening of, like. Yeah, I've been much more cognizant of that kind of stuff as I've gotten older. And that stuff is more in the forefront and diagnosed more and more about, like, understanding that, hey, that person that I think is, like, man, read the room. Why are you acting like that? They may have something going on neurodivergently. There may Be a genuine mental illness there. Goffman argued that if you have a mental illness or any sort of thing, a disability or if you are unhoused or you're obese or a drug user, that all just lumps you in as a thing. I mean, a stigma, which we're gonna talk more about in a second, basically, but. And it ends up sort of creating the symptom of that thing just because you're put in that box.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And so anybody who has a social stigma, like you just mentioned, you rattled off that list. They're what Goffman called discredited. They don't have. They're not. They have less value according to society. And if you. This is where he developed that empathy from researching this stuff, I bet. Especially based on something like someone's ethnicity or whether they're handicapped or whether they're homeless or whatever, the idea that they have less value, socially speaking, in this sense, is totally unfair because the social norms that we create are generally arbitrary.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And not all cases, but impression management is a tool that people can use to get over or hide those stigmatized features. I mean, we can't get super into code switching, but that could be a pretty interesting short stuff to accompany this. I think that is the idea, and it's not specific to the African American community, but it is. If you talk to a group of African Americans in the United States today or for many years now, they will say, no. Code switching is how we get by in white America, basically. And that's the idea that you may change the way you talk when you're around white people or change the way you act than you normally would when you're in, you know, around your family and friends or your own community. And that's a big, big thing.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And that's a great example of it. You could also be like, my last name sounds pretty ethnic, and I want to change it so that people call me back for job interviews. There's a lot of stuff you can do, so you're not. You're covering your stigma. So you're not an automatically discredited person. But according to Goffman, you're discreditable. If you're found out, you will be stigmatized. So it's a terrible situation all around just to stigmatize groups based on arbitrary social norms. I hate it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I remember in elementary school, I'm not going to name her name, name, because I don't know if she would want this out there. But there was a girl from an Indian American girl in our school that came back after a summer with an Americanized first name. And so she was that from fourth grade till senior in high school when we graduated together. And I lost touch with her. And like five or six years ago, my good friend in Boston said, oh, well, so and so's in town. I said, oh, is she going by that name now again? And she went back to her. You know, she grew up a little bit and was like, no, that is. That's my name. That's my Indian name. And it just made me feel really good that she reached that point, you.

[Josh Clark]

Know, Good for her.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, it was great. So at, you know, the furthest end of this, I guess, spectrum is autism. And we've talked about autism here and there, but a lot of times if you have autism, you might have difficulty responding in what people might consider an appropriate way in a social situation. And masking is a big. Can be a big part of self presentation when it comes to people with autism.

[Josh Clark]

Yes. But there's autism researchers Amy Pearson and Kieran Rose, and they make. They go to great pains to basically say masking is different than impression management.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

Impression management is something everyone has to do. Masking is specific to typically neurodivergent people to where they are protecting themselves by pushing down their actual identities and hiding it at all costs because they're afraid of being stigmatized because they've been taught over the years that that's not. They're not acceptable as they are. And so those are. Those are two really different things. Even though they seem pretty like they have a lot in common.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. And masking, you know, there are all kinds of people who mask. We talked about that in the Sociopath episode once again and got emails from people that are like, I'm a sociopath and I put on a big performance. So people don't know that.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, yeah. They're just always walking around like, I love you, man.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right. Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Just one note about autism, which obviously deserves its own episode still coming down the pike one day. Don't worry about that. But you were talking about just kind of learning as you get older, you know, that. That you can't just. You can't just make assumptions about people based on their ability to interact socially.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

If you want to develop a familiarity and empathy for people with autism, I think you could do a lot worse than Starting with Love on the Spectrum all seasons, Australian version and American version.

[Chuck Bryant]

I think that is very sweet because that is like the fifth time you've recommended that show. To people.

[Josh Clark]

People need to watch the show. It's so great. This season in America deserves an Emmy. It's a masterpiece.

[Chuck Bryant]

I've still never seen it.

[Josh Clark]

You really should. I think you'd love it. All right, so I guess, Chuck, since I did my every 10th episode mention of love on the spectrum, it's time for listener mail.

[Chuck Bryant]

Hey guys, I love the show. This is about popcorn, by the way. Okay, just finished the podcast on popcorn. It reminds me of a segment I saw years ago on Alton Brown's Good Eats. Alton Brown at Lanton and I did a little work on that show back in the day as a props guy. Nice while not directly related to popcorn. And Alton was a good dude to work with, by the way. Nice while not directly related to popcorn. In this particular episode, the show's resident food anthropologist related a factoid on Montezuma's Revenge. They thought Montezuma's real revenge was allowing the conquering Spaniards to return to Spain with maize without the knowledge of nixtamalization, which resulted in widespread pellagra or pellagra causing dermatitis, diarrhea, dementia and eventual death due to a lack of essential nutrients, niacin and tryptophan in their diets. Nixtamalization is a traditional Mesoamerican process used to prepare maize and other grains for consumption, involving cooking the grain in an alkaline solution, typically lime water, which then allows for the outer pericarp, the skin, to be easily removed. The process significantly improves the digestibility and nutritional value of the grain. And that is from Bob.

[Josh Clark]

Bob, that was a great email. Yeah, a top notch one. I'm just gonna go ahead and say it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Agreed.

[Josh Clark]

If you wanna be like Bob and send us a really interesting top notch email. We love that kind of thing. You can send it off to stuffpodcastheartradio.com.

[Chuck Bryant]

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