M*A*S*H: The Story of the 4077th

Summary

Stuff You Should Know — "MAS*H: The Story of the 4077th"

Date: June 18, 2026
Hosts: Josh Clark & Chuck Bryant
Podcast: Stuff You Should Know (iHeartPodcasts)

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Episode Overview

Josh and Chuck take a deep dive into “MASH,” the legendary TV series set in a Mobile Army Surgical Hospital during the Korean War. The episode covers MASH’s origins (including its real-life context, the novel, and the movie), its innovative blend of comedy and drama, iconic characters, memorable episodes, and lasting cultural impact—including that record-shattering series finale. Along the way, the hosts reflect on TV history, the changing landscape of sitcoms, and their own fond and funny memories of the show.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

[02:31] Childhood Connections and First Impressions

• Chuck admits to watching MASH with his dad, who “laughed out loud, threw his head back and clapped sometimes,” although Chuck confesses he “never loved MASH” the way he loved stuff like Head of the Class or Perfect Strangers.
• Josh: Shares that MASH was a “formative show for me... a top five show as a kid” and reveals his marathon viewing habits (“At one point, I was watching five episodes of MASH on Thursday and four episodes every other day.”) [04:10]
• Both reflect on generational perspectives and TV’s evolving formats.

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[06:23] What Does "MAS*H" Stand For?—And What's With the Asterisks?

• MAS*H: Mobile Army Surgical Hospital.
• The asterisks in the title are strictly for style/design—no military significance.
  • Josh: “I think it clearly was meant to show that it is an acronym… Would be my guess.” [07:19]
  • Chuck: “It looks good, though.” [07:47]

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[08:10] MAS*H Units in Real Life

• The Mobile Army Surgical Hospital was a real innovation, first used in the Korean War to bring surgeons close to the front for higher survival rates.
  • Josh: “The real life MAS*H units apparently had a 97% survival rate. If you got there, chances are you lived.” [10:24]
• The TV show conveys the makeshift, gritty reality of these hospitals—surgeons slept in tents and reused scant medical supplies.

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[11:24] The Doctors Draft & The Anti-Military Theme

• Most doctors in MAS*H and actual war were civilians, drafted for service. They often bristled at military discipline.
  • Chuck: “That's almost one of the cornerstones of the show… They're like, just get out of our hair. We're here to save lives. You know, take that whole, like, reveille stuff and shove it.” [12:24]

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[12:51] The Origins — Book & Movie

• Book: Written by Dr. Richard H. Hornberger (as Richard Hooker) with W.C. Hines, comprised of anecdotes about his 8055th MASH experience.
  • Chuck: “[It] was not a Liberal book or written by a liberal person... but it still had a kind of anti-war bent.” [14:55]
• Movie: Directed by Robert Altman; known for its improvisational style, black comedy, and controversy (sexism/racism by today's standards).
  • Josh: “It won the Golden Palm at Cannes... nominated for best picture and four other Oscars... But... I don't think it's among Altman's best work.” [17:06]
  • Chuck: “It's almost one of those things you get the impression that people like it because it's, you know, supposedly this amazing thing, not because they like it like it.” [17:18]

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[18:15] The Infamous Theme Song

• “Suicide Is Painless” — instrumental for the TV show, with lyrics by 15-year-old Michael Altman in the film.
  • Josh: “Altman tried to write it, but couldn't... So... his 15 year old son Michael co-wrote it... That's what they came up with.” [21:10]
  • Chuck: “I’ve always been like, that seems a little tongue in cheek... Now I do [get it].” [21:19]

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[25:22] The TV Show—A Risky Adaptation

• TV adaptation created by Gene Reynolds and Larry Gelbart, aiming to balance laughs, anti-war statements, and drama.
  • Josh: “They wanted to walk that fine line between having laughs... and an anti-war movie... tough fine line.” [27:58]
• CBS insisted on a laugh track, but a compromise let the operating room scenes remain laugh-free—a powerful creative choice.
  • Josh: “Apparently the BBC never used the laugh track at all.” [30:06]
  • Chuck: “It was such an institution in, like, a certain kind of comedy that... without it, you don’t know when to laugh almost.” [31:09]

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[32:26] Mining Real-Life Stories

• The show’s plot lines were often inspired by interviews with Korean War veterans.
  • Josh: “Like the episode where a wounded North Korean soldier... pulls a pin out of a hand grenade... that apparently really happened.” [32:52]

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[33:03] MAS*H’s Ratings and Critical Reception

• Early Struggles: Originally struggled against Disney, then boomed by being scheduled after All in the Family.
  • Newsweek: “Without ever moralizing, MAS*H is the most moral entertainment on commercial television. It proposes craft against butchery, humor against despair, wit as a defense mechanism against the senseless enormity of the situation.” [34:24]

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[34:29] Meet the 4077th: Key Characters

Hawkeye Pierce (Alan Alda)

• Main character, witty, rebellious, brilliant surgeon.
  • Josh: “He is one of the great writers and great directors and great actors and great human beings in the history of the TV and movie business...” [35:05]

Trapper John (Wayne Rogers)

• Hawkeye’s partner/prankster; left show after 3rd season (“He never signed a contract!”) [37:40]

B.J. Hunnicutt (Mike Farrell)

• Replaced Trapper; faithful to his wife, brought new dimension.
  • Chuck: “He was a breath of fresh air... very true to his wife back home.” [38:38]

Radar O’Reilly (Gary Burghoff)

• Precognitive, sweet company clerk (“He would sense helicopters before you could hear them.”) [39:21]

Col. Blake (McLean Stevenson) / Col. Potter (Harry Morgan)

• Blake: affable, overwhelmed; Potter: old-school soldier, still flexible.

Frank Burns (Larry Linville)

• Antagonistic, sycophantic, bad surgeon, comic foil.
  • Chuck: “I always felt bad for the guy in real life... He was able to play one of the more unlikable characters… in TV history.” [41:06]

“Hot Lips” Houlihan (Loretta Swit)

• Head nurse; underwent one of TV’s strongest character arcs—from “one-dimensional victim” to “really respectable and three-dimensional.” [43:17]

Max Klinger (Jamie Farr)

• Comic cross-dressing for a psych discharge became staple shtick (originally meant as a one-off gay character, but Farr convinced creators to make him a straight guy faking it). [43:55]

Father Mulcahy (William Christopher)

• Kindly chaplain, moral anchor.

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[44:30] Star-Studded Guest Appearances

• Ron Howard, Leslie Nielsen (his comedy transition), Patrick Swayze, Laurence Fishburne, Terry Garr, George Wendt, Andrew Dice Clay, Rita Wilson, John Ritter, Shelley Long, Pat Morita (and many more).
  • Josh: “It’s Hollywood in the 70s... We don’t care what part of Asia you’re from, just sign them up.” [45:29]

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[48:14] Groundbreaking and Memorable Episodes

“Sometimes You Hear a Bullet” (Season 1)

• Hawkeye loses a childhood friend—first heavy, emotional episode.
  • Josh: “That was the first episode that was really very heavy...” [48:56]

“Dreams” (Season 8)

• Surreal, disturbing dream sequences for each character—controversial, experimental.
  • Chuck: “Apparently its most controversial episode because it is very jarring, very disturbing...” [49:27]

“The Interview” & “Point of View”

• Documentary-style, fourth-wall-breaking, camera-as-patient—innovative storytelling.

“Abyssinia, Henry” (Season 3 Finale)

• Devastating: beloved Col. Blake is killed off unexpectedly after leaving the camp.
  • Josh: “Alan Alden knew this was gonna happen. The story goes they didn’t tell the rest of the cast until they got their sides that morning...and you just hear they’re crying... and it’s devastating.” [51:13–52:09]

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[52:22] The Landmark Finale

• "Goodbye, Farewell and Amen": Most-watched TV episode ever (121 million viewers; 2½ hours long, $450,000 per ad spot).
  • Chuck: “The things the characters go through at the end are all pretty, you know, take pretty dramatic turns.” [53:09]
  • Memorable moment: Klinger, who spent years trying to get out, ironically stays behind in Korea with his new wife [54:08]
  • “75% of America tuned in to that, which is a staggering number.” [53:35]
  • Urban legend: NY’s plumbing supposedly broke at first commercial break due to mass bathroom trips. [54:13]

Personal Memories

• Both hosts recall watching the finale with family, rewatching on videotape. [54:51]
• Chuck: Shares a touching anecdote about Yumi, his wife, as a child, worrying her brother’s military hospital trip would be like MAS*H. [55:00]

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[56:08] The (Mostly Failed) Spin-offs

• AfterMASH: Set in a postwar VA hospital; short-lived.
• Trapper John, M.D.: Ran 7 years, with a new actor as the older titular character (ran concurrently with MAS*H for years).
• Walter: A 1984 pilot starring Burghoff as a depressed, postwar Radar O’Reilly. Aired once, never in the West. “Apparently so bad they didn’t even air it in the west that same night.” [58:38]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Chuck on the show’s scope: “It ran for 11 seasons—almost four times longer than the actual Korean War!” [09:38]
• On character arcs: “Thanks to this actor… she actually got better... more involved... interesting over the years.” (On Loretta Swit/Hot Lips) [43:17]
• Josh on Hawkeye: “He is one of the great writers and great directors and great actors and great human beings in the history of the TV and movie business.” [35:05]
• On the finale’s impact: “My whole family sat around... We didn’t do that kind of thing much.” [54:51]
• On realism: “A wounded North Korean soldier... pulls out a hand grenade… that apparently really happened.” [32:52]
• On the laugh track compromise: “...the BBC never used the laugh track at all.” [30:06]

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Episode Structure & Timestamps (Highlights)

• [02:31] Opening: MAS*H in Childhood, TV Then & Now
• [06:23] Name & Asterisks – What’s in a Title?
• [08:10] Real MAS*H Units: History & Survival Rates
• [11:24] Drafted Surgeons and the Anti-Military Theme
• [12:51] The Book & The Movie—Origins & Differences
• [18:15] Theme Song: "Suicide Is Painless"
• [25:22] TV Adaptation: Laugh Track, Fine Line Between Comedy & Realism
• [32:26] Fact vs. Fiction: True War Stories in MAS*H
• [33:03] Ratings, Critical Acclaim & “Most Moral” TV
• [34:29] Main Characters & Actor Trivia
• [44:30] Guest Stars Galore
• [48:14] Groundbreaking & Special Episodes
• [52:22] Finale: Legacy, Cultural Impact, Urban Legends
• [56:08] Spin-Offs: AfterMASH, Trapper John M.D., Walter

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Final Thoughts

The episode is a rich, affectionate, and often hilarious tour through all things MASH: the show’s innovative blend of humor and seriousness, its influence on TV drama (and the sitcom format), its unforgettable characters and episodes, and why it still matters in pop culture. Even if you’ve never seen an episode, you’ll come away not only understanding why MASH holds such a special place in television history—but also wanting to go watch it (maybe starting with the surreal “Dreams”).

Chuck: “If you want to know more about MAS*H, just go start watching it.” [59:41]

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Notes:

• Ads, intros, and outros omitted.
• All quotes and moments attributed to speakers with timestamps for cross-reference.
• The tone is conversational, warm, and nostalgic—punctuated with both humor and genuine reflection.

Transcript

[Chuck Bryant]

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[Josh Clark]

Are we there yet?

[Chuck Bryant]

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[Josh Clark]

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[Questlove]

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[Dave]

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[Chuck Bryant]

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[Hoda Kotb]

No.

[Josh Clark]

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[Questlove]

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[Chuck Bryant]

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[Hoda Kotb]

Joy is essential, and it's also elusive. But now there's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence. Joy 101. It's a new podcast hosted by me. How to KOTB. If you're craving inspiration to maximize your joy, tune into these candid, uplifting and moving on air chats. Listen to Joy 101 on the iHeartRadio app Apple podcast. Wherever you get your podcasts, Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb is presented by CBS Montreal.

[Josh Clark]

Bon soir. It is Josh and Chuck and we are coming to your French ish town.

[Dave]

Yeah, and not just Montreal. We're also coming to Ottawa, the capital of Canada itself. And Toronto, one of our favorite cities in the entire world.

[Josh Clark]

That's right. We're going to be in those cities on June 25th, 26th and 27th, and there are still plenty of great tickets available. We love going to Canada and we can't wait to go to some of these towns we've never been to. And you can get tickets. Well, you can go to the websites of the venues. You can go to stuffyouchouldknow.com and click on the on tour button and click on the tickets link there. There are all kinds of ways to find these tickets.

[Dave]

Yeah, and we'll See you guys next week.

[Chuck Bryant]

Welcome to Stuff youf Should Know, a production of iHeartrad.

[Dave]

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck. And Jerry's here too. And this is Stuff you should know, part of our ongoing TV edition. Because we were raised on tv, so it's familiar to us and we love it.

[Josh Clark]

Well, one of us loved this. We might as well go ahead and get that out of the way.

[Dave]

What do you mean, mash?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I love mash. You hated mash.

[Dave]

I don't know what you're talking about.

[Josh Clark]

Come on.

[Dave]

I don't hate mash. It's mostly a put on just to annoy you. Yeah, I don't hate it. Hate it. You know what I mean?

[Josh Clark]

Well, tell me your history. Did you watch it at all?

[Dave]

Yeah, I watched it with my dad.

[Questlove]

Okay.

[Dave]

My dad would laugh out loud, throw his head back and clap sometimes.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Dave]

And it was fun just to see my dad do that. Of course, he had, you know, consumed two Old Milwaukee tall boys by this time. But sure, you know, I would guess that he probably would have laughed regardless. And that was it. I mean, that's how I know mash, essentially. And I've seen probably a decent amount of the episodes. But I, you know, it was never like, I love mash, you know, like, like Head of the Class. I never, never loved mash. Like I loved Head of the Class or Perfect Strangers.

[Josh Clark]

Right. Well, this is when I remember that you are younger than me. So it's not like you were like me, nine years old and loving a show about alcoholic surgeons in the Korean War.

[Dave]

No, but I don't feel like a lot of it was lost on me. I think I got a lot of it. It just. I don't think I was old enough for the comedy.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, well, I have talked about it before, but it was definitely weird that a 9 year old was into a comedy sometimes serious about alcoholic surgeons during the Korean War. But I was into it. And you know, at one point MASH was on reruns in the evening and then late night and while it was still airing. So on Thursdays, I believe it aired on Thursdays in primetime. At least it did when I. From my recollection, at one point I was watching five episodes of M A S H on Thursday and four episodes of MASH every other day of the week.

[Dave]

Wow. There's not that many shows you can do that with.

[Josh Clark]

No, it was like 5 and 5:30 and then something like 10, 10:30 or something like that.

[Dave]

I can do that with Law and Order. I can just watch Law and Order indefinitely, the original series.

[Josh Clark]

But I was into it. It was a formative show for me. It was, you know, it was a top five show as a kid, so.

[Dave]

Wow. And is it still one of your top shows?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I mean, it's not one I go back to and it certainly has a place in my heart. But it's hard to definitively rank today's TV against TV back then, you know, it's different. Very different.

[Dave]

Definitely different.

[Josh Clark]

There are no short shows about alcoholic surgeons in the Korean War.

[Dave]

Now there are no short shows. They're all six or eight hours long at least.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. The 30 minute sitcom is on its last legs, it feels like. Huh.

[Dave]

Are there any out there? Oh, I guess there's a few.

[Josh Clark]

I mean, main, you know, the main networks still have their shows. I just, I don't watch any of them.

[Dave]

The last mainstream network show that I saw that I really liked was a Ted Danson show called Mr. Mayor. And it's. It was funny. I don't know why it got canceled. It had a great cast. It wasn't dumb, it was smart. But it was also hilarious. Had a real like, kind of like a slightly different 30 Rock vibe to like the writing.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

You know what, man, I'd have to really dig to see what the last major network half hour sitcom was I watched because I feel like it was like Arrested Development, but maybe there's been one since then.

[Dave]

Yeah, yeah, I would say probably before Mr. Mayor. That's as far as it would go back for me too.

[Josh Clark]

Then you watched the Good Place too, didn't you?

[Dave]

I did. I didn't watch it. I watched it business wise on, I guess, Netflix or whatever. I never watched it when it was on. Yeah, yeah. So obviously all this is barreling us toward MASH, which is an acronym. Did you know that, Mr. Smart Guy?

[Josh Clark]

I did, yeah. Well, why don't you, since this is your favorite show, why don't you tell everybody what it stands for?

[Dave]

It stands for Mobile Army Surgical Hospital. And as everyone, even Jerry knows that there's an asterisk in between the letters. Three asterisks. Our friend Dave helped us with this. And he.

[Josh Clark]

Who also hates match, by the way.

[Dave]

Yeah, he looked high and low and was like, there's no reason for the asterisks. He thinks that it was just a design thing. And I couldn't find anything that contradicted that.

[Josh Clark]

Well, my feeling is that I think it clearly was meant to show that it is an acronym, even though that's not how the military necessarily distinguished it. Cause people would just say, what in the world does MASH mean? But, oh, wait, it must stand for something. Would be my guess.

[Dave]

Right. But they didn't use, like, periods after each letter like the military would have.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah, sure. I get you.

[Dave]

I'm talking about the asterisks in particular.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. An acronym is typically a period. Right.

[Dave]

All right, gotcha. Yeah. Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

But it looks good, though.

[Dave]

You're right. It does. It looks fantastic. Very.

[Josh Clark]

Signature.

[Dave]

So Mobile Army Surgical Hospital. And obviously, if you've ever seen mash, it's where the whole thing is set. So. Set during the Korean War in a mobile surgical hospital, hence the name. And those were actually a real thing. Did you know that, Mr. Smart Guy who loves MASH so much?

[Josh Clark]

Oh, boy, is this what we're in for? I did know that because at some point the show spells that out. So, yeah, I knew that was a thing. What I was curious. And my MASH recollection. This is from a long time ago. I don't remember them ever moving at all. So I feel like they kind of stayed there. Unless there was an episode that I missed where they were like, yeah, we're gonna move to this other part of Malibu, which is where it was filmed. The Fox Ranch, which is now Malibu Creek State park, which is why. And all the scenes of helicopters flying around Korea. Who knows if that's what Korea looks like? But it looks like the mountains of Southern California.

[Dave]

You don't know? That's where the Manson family lived for a while.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, really? No, they lived on Spahn Ranch.

[Dave]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Dave]

Anytime I hear ranch in California, I just immediately think of the Manson Family.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And I know I've told the story about shooting out there, but it was a big treat for me as a PA to shoot a commercial and see, like, a rusted out army ambulance. And I think. I mean, who knows what's there now? But there were still a few remnants back then, Right.

[Dave]

Yeah. I remember my mind being blown when I found out that that was, like, California in the back.

[Josh Clark]

Like, they didn't go to Korea.

[Dave]

Yeah. I think that's kind of when I started to get that people cut corners for money.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, totally.

[Dave]

So, yeah. So a MASH thing. A MASH was actually a thing. And I think it was actually first tried out in the Korean War.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Dave]

Which I think was a three year war. But something interesting that I noticed about MASH is that it ran for 11 seasons, so it was almost four times longer than the actual war. That was the setting for this TV show. But in reality, like I was saying, a MASH hospital was. Was tried out in the Korean War. In real life.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, for sure. And the idea is that they put the surgeons close to the front lines so they could save more lives. And it was, you know, they were all kind of temporary. Like they slept on, you know, cot like beds, and they lived in tents. And on the TV show, there's a lot of talk about the front and how close they were. But the real life mass units apparently had a 97% survival rate. If you got there, chances are you lived.

[Dave]

Yeah. So it was a really good idea that panned out. Yeah. And in the show, you can hear bombs going off sometimes, occasionally the overhead lights will flicker and sway because they are so close to the front. And I was thinking about the same thing that you mentioned too, that they never seem to change or move their unit. And if it's supposed to be four to five miles behind front lines, then that would have to be a completely static front line for all those years to never move. But it made me wonder about the real life MASH surgeons. How often did you have to break down your MASH unit and then move it and set it up again? Which apparently you could do very quickly. Supposedly you could set one up in 24 hours. But that also just kind of goes to explain, like, these were not like state of the art surgical wards. They were like blood and guts. Get your hands dirty, you're lucky if you have more than one scalpel. Kind of like surgical outfit.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, for sure. And that was conveyed very well in the show. The doctors on the show, you know, just like in real life, the doctors were generally civilians that were drafted into the war to be army surgeons. After, I think World War II, they had a tougher time getting surgeons going. And when Korea came around, they passed the Doctor's Draft Act. If you had already served in World War II as a doctor or surgeon or nurse or whatever, you could get waived. You could still serve if you wanted to. But the long and short of that is the recruits were younger. They didn't have as much experience. They definitely were not looking to join the army, which was a big, big part of that show is that none of, you know, none of them. But the main characters that we're gonna talk about, like the protagonist, not the Foils. The Foils kind of like the army, but the other guys generally did not like being there or being in the army culture. And Alan Alda was 36 when they started making this. I was Kind of curious about his starting age.

[Dave]

Oh, yeah, yeah, 36. So, yeah, I think that's almost one of the cornerstones of this show is that these are civilian doctors who were drafted in the military. And they're kind of bristling against this, the regimentedness that's required of them just from being in the military. They're like, just get out of our hair. We're here to save lives. You know, take that whole, like, reveille stuff and shove it.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, that's right. It was actually a book. And this smart guy. I did not know.

[Dave]

No way I was going to ask you that facetiously. And I didn't.

[Josh Clark]

I'm sorry, I did not know this. Of course I knew it was a movie. And we'll talk about that in a second. But the movie was optioned from a book written in 1968 called A Novel About Three Army Doctors by a MASH veteran doctor named Dr. Richard H. Hornberger under a pseudonym, Richard Hooker. I think he added a co writer named W.C. hines when it became pretty clear that his book was a bit of a mess, because it sounds like it was just sort of a group of stories about his experience in the 855. The 80, 55th MASH unit was the real life unit that it was based on. And it sounds like it was like what we see on TV and in the movies. They partied a lot, they drank a lot, did a lot of pranks, and on the side did some surgery.

[Dave]

Yeah, but like you said, it was kind of loosely put together. Like, each chapter started with, hey, get this. And they were basically like, yeah, they were anecdotes. And then apparently he also peppered in some, like, gory stuff just to basically get across the horrors of war. And he was actually a surgeon in Maine. And when he put this whole book together and they brought in W.C. hines, a sports writer, to kind of help him with it. If you've seen the TV show and you've never read the book, maybe even haven't seen the movie, you have a totally different conception of MASH than what Hornberger created and what the movie kind of portrayed, which is like, this wasn't a. He didn't have any liberal agenda. In fact, he was kind of conservative and he didn't really like the tone of the TV show. But it was still. It still had like a kind of anti war bent through it, or at least just questioning the. The morality of war, just how stupid and wasteful it is. But it wasn't, you know, it was not a Liberal book or written by a liberal person.

[Josh Clark]

But, you know, once Hollywood gets ahold of something, yeah, they're gonna liberalize it. And that's basically, you know, like you said, what the movie and TV show ended up being. It's like a statement. Like an anti war statement. Hornberger after. Not Aftermash, because we'll talk about that later. The weird spinoff. But post mash, he wrote more MASH books after the movie was a hit. He wrote 14 MASH novels. The first one was called Mash and Main, which published the same year the TV show ended up premiering.

[Dave]

Yeah, 14 novels, a movie and a TV show off of a book that he had to bring a sports writer in to help whip into shape.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Can you say cash in?

[Dave]

Exactly. So, yeah. And he was just basically trying to get his anecdotes across, which were mostly like drunken prank stuff, like you said. Like, you see on the TV show, like, that was based on this guy's book. So, like I said, it was turned into a movie. I think it was optioned maybe even the year it was published in 1968, because the movie came out in 1970. And I imagine it took a little while to make because it's a mess. And it was directed by Robert Altman.

[Josh Clark]

So you didn't like the movie?

[Dave]

I've only seen it once. I'm not entirely certain I saw the whole thing. I don't remember if I saw the whole thing. I was reading about people debating on whether the movie is any good or not. And it seemed like the consensus was that I saw somebody say it's a masterpiece of 20th century comedy.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, See, that's where I veer off. Like, I love, love, love the TV show. I liked the movie, okay? Like, I'm a big Robert Altman guy. It critically did very. I mean, it was a big hit. It won the Golden Palm at the Cannes film festival in 1970. Nominated for best picture and four other Oscars. I think it won Best Screenplay. So it was a huge hit. But it's like, I think maybe I was too young the first time I saw it. And I loved the TV show so much, I was like, oh, I gotta go see the movie version. And the movie version's a lot different. And it just didn't. I don't know. I don't think it's among Altman's best work. But certainly a lot of people disagree with me.

[Dave]

Sure, a lot of people like it, but it's almost one of those things you get the impression that people like it. Because it's, you know, supposedly this amazing thing, not because they like it like it. You know what I mean?

[Josh Clark]

Maybe.

[Dave]

Maybe that's just kind of the tone that I got. But anyway, the movie was a little closer to the book. And in that, it's like it portrays everything that the younger generations dislike about the oldest generation right now. Explain sexism, racism.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, sure.

[Dave]

Just completely, completely ignoring, like, the consequences of harming other people.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dave]

Like, essentially everything. Like, those are the main themes throughout this. This movie. Right. Although, again, the subtext is that this is an anti war movie at the very least. Again, questioning the morality of war. And it was released right at, you know, the peak of when anti war sentiment was really aroused in America because of the Vietnam War.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, for sure. And I didn't know where you were going, but you totally nailed it. Like, in this movie, it's like, it's supposed to be funny that Hot Lips Houlihan, the head nurse, is. The shower curtain is ripped open and she is fully frontally exposed naked to the rest of the camp. Like this. Played for laughs. So obviously it's a movie of its time. It was written by Ring Lardner Jr. Obviously, son of great short story writer Ring Lardner, and he. I think they called him Pinky. Ring was his nickname.

[Dave]

No. Oh, you got me. That's a good one.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, thanks. That'd be a pretty good nickname for Ring Jr. Yeah. Or maybe Toe.

[Dave]

Ring. No, Pinky.

[Josh Clark]

Pinky Ring.

[Dave]

Okay.

[Josh Clark]

So Altman does his Altman thing, which is a lot of improvisation, a lot of overlapping dialogue. It's his hallmark as a filmmaker. Ring Lardner Jr. Did not care for that, evidently, and said, like, you ruined what I wrote. And I don't know if he took that back after he won the Oscar for screenplay or not, but, yeah, it's kind of interesting.

[Dave]

Yeah, I saw he tried to get his name taken off of it and then he won the Oscar. Oh, wow. I guess I'll stick with this.

[Josh Clark]

That's really funny.

[Dave]

One other thing About Ring Lardner Jr. I saw is that he was one of the Hollywood 10 who was blacklisted by the McCarthy hearings.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah, for sure.

[Dave]

It was like almost a slightly subversive act in and of itself to hire him in the late 60s after, you know, he was. They were bringing him back, I guess.

[Josh Clark]

Well, Altman's. He was an old pothead. He was a medium age pothead at that point.

[Dave]

So let's talk about the theme song, which I'm sure a lot of people know the title of it, but many people might not actually because they played it. If you're a fan of the TV show, it was always instrumental.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, they changed it from the movie. In the movie it had words. The name of the song is Suicide is Painless. And the story behind it I did not know. In the MASH movie there was a character. I did know this stuff, Captain Walt Waldowski, who says he wants to take his own life because he's gay and he's in the army and he can't bear it. And so they do a fake, sort of a fake funeral, a living funeral, and give him a placebo pill, telling him it's a big sedative that's gonna take his life. And so Altman was like, I need a song. That's. He pitched it as I need it to be the stupidest song ever. So he hired a guy, a real musician named Johnny Mandel. Any relation to the man? Oh, that's Mandrill.

[Dave]

Sorry, close. He's a distant, distant relation. Yeah, that's right.

[Josh Clark]

He dropped the R and he was like, we need a song for this funeral. I want it to be the dumbest song ever. And Altman tried to write it, but couldn't come up with anything that he liked. So as the story goes, he hired his 15 year old son Michael to co write this thing with this pro musician. And that's what they came up with.

[Dave]

Yeah. And like, that explains like it was a purposefully stupid song, which explains just the only lyrics I know, which is Suicide is painless, it brings on many changes. And I've always been like, that seems a little tongue in cheek. Like, what's the. Like, I don't get that now. I do. It made me want to go back and read the rest of the lyrics. Cause I'm sure they're hilarious.

[Josh Clark]

I actually meant to do that too, and I did not. I thought, you know. I know. Emily worked with Roger and two of his sons on the Gingerbread man in Savannah. And I asked her if Michael was one of them and she said no, it was two of the others. Or maybe the other two.

[Dave]

Was it Gingerbread Man? Is that a Grisham thriller?

[Josh Clark]

I think so.

[Dave]

Or at least in that vein.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I think it was a Grisham thriller.

[Dave]

Hey, speaking of movies, I saw something just last night that I want to recommend.

[Josh Clark]

Let's hear it.

[Dave]

It's an old Oswald or Osgood. Sorry, Oz. Osgood Perkins movie.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, you love that guy.

[Dave]

Gretel and Hansel.

[Josh Clark]

And I think he's from I think you have it backwards.

[Dave]

No, no, that's the way it is. That's the title. I'm just kidding because Gretel's older in this one and it's from like 2012. 13. It's great.

[Josh Clark]

You should start a podcast on Oz, Perkins.

[Dave]

I wonder if I could get him to come on.

[Josh Clark]

Call it like, you know, like Finding Oz or the wizard of Oz or something like that.

[Dave]

Sure. Or behind the curtain.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, yeah. Behind the green. Not behind the green door. That's something different. Behind the green curtain.

[Dave]

Behind the green door. Oh, man.

[Josh Clark]

All right, I feel like we should take a break. We told the song story and we'll be right back to finally get to the TV show after this. Learn some stuff with Joshua and character stuff you should know. Mom, are we there yet?

[Chuck Bryant]

10 more minutes. Only 10 minutes.

[Josh Clark]

Can you drive slower?

[Questlove]

What's up with them today?

[Chuck Bryant]

Lingokids, that app we downloaded last week, they love it. The games, this funny baby bot character. Kids, we're almost there.

[Hoda Kotb]

No.

[Josh Clark]

With more than 4,000 interactive games, songs and shows little ones can't get enough of, Lingokids is the number one entertainment platform for young kids. Why didn't we download this sooner?

[Chuck Bryant]

Lingokids, everything kids love, download it for free.

[Hoda Kotb]

Hey, I'm Hoda Kotb, host of the podcast Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb. Together we're going to have meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating people. Like when actress Olivia Munn shared how she overcame fierce health challenges.

[Chuck Bryant]

I've gone through breast cancer and then helped my mother through breast cancer, and that was more difficult.

[Josh Clark]

There's a lot of people who understand postpartum depression. I was not prepared for postpartum anxiety.

[Hoda Kotb]

Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Questlove]

This Black Music month. The Questlove show celebrates the artists, innovators and cultural voices who continue to redefine music. We're sitting down with a groundbreaking country artist, Mickey Guyden.

[Chuck Bryant]

The way that the country music community accepted post Malone vs Beyonce vs Shaboozi, like, those are very eye opening things.

[Questlove]

Hip hop visionary, Fat five Freddy, genre bending musical genius, Thundercat. And the always legendary revolutionary voice, Chuck D. Yeah, we changed tires, man. I had 18 jobs before this became my occupation, man. Okay, I wrote. I wrote Bum Rush the show as a messenger. From unforgettable stories to deep conversations about creativity, culture and legacy, these are the voices shaping the soundtrack of black music. Past, present, and future, listen to the Questlove show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Dave]

Okay, Chuck, so you said we'd get to the TV show, but you lied, lied, lied. Because there's a little more about the movie we have to talk about.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, okay.

[Dave]

Chiefly that it was nominated for five Oscars. Like you said, Ring Lardner Jr. Won for best screenplay. But most importantly is that Robert Altman hated the TV show.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, yeah, good point.

[Dave]

I'm guessing that Robert Altman never even saw the TV show. I'll bet that he, like heard it, heard that they were making it on CBS and that they were turning into a 30 minute comedy and was like, this is the. It's the worst thing I've ever seen. Even though I've never seen it. That would be my guess.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, maybe. And you know, to be fair at the time, and you know, we'll see. Alan Alda's reaction to being pitched this idea and him not wanting to try to audition at first is that the history of TV and war shows and army and Navy shows is stuff like Hogan's Heroes and McHale's Navy. And that's the kind of thing that somebody like Robert Altman and Alan Alda wouldn't have liked. And it was only after Alan Alda read the pilot and he said, this is the best TV pilot I've ever read. I'm totally gonna audition for this.

[Dave]

Sure.

[Josh Clark]

That he decided to do it. But I could see Altman just not going there, you know.

[Dave]

Yeah, I mean, that's a really risky thing. That's actually, in retrospect, quite surprising. It's retrospect, by the way, that's the German pronunciation. It's really surprising that anybody was able to pull it off. Because if you know the book or the movie, the idea of adapting those into a TV show, a family friendly TV show in the late 60s, early 70s, is like, wait, what are you going to do? The only way you could possibly do that is to make it like screwball hijinks like McHale's Navy, where the war just happens to be the setting. It could also be an office comedy, essentially. And that's not at all what they did. Thanks to a producer named Gene Reynolds and a writer named Larry Gelbert. I don't know how those two came together, but it was a match made in CBS heaven.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, for sure. Gelbert was an experienced writer. He wrote, or at least co wrote the musical A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum. Later on after Post smash. He wrote the movie Tootsie, which is great. And the movie oh God, with George Burns and John Denver, which to me is great. And I guess to you too, not so much oh God, Book two, but that first oh God. Was awesome.

[Dave]

I saw both. I don't remember the book two, but the first one was so great.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, agreed. But they wanted to walk that fine line between having laughs and it being a quote unquote comedy and an anti war movie and a movie about the horrors of combat. And it's really interesting. They walk a really tough fine line. And as we'll see, they ended up doing some really groundbreaking episodes in later seasons. The first few seasons were definitely leaned way more into the sort of hijinks of it all. And then I think they realized, like, hey, we have a real chance here to have some incredible character arcs and really do something a little bit more like all in the Family was doing.

[Dave]

Yeah. They actually put it behind all in the Family at some point, which helped bring it out of TV purgatory, I guess. But one of the ways that the producers were able to kind of navigate that narrow margin between just idiocy and over. Over melodramatic stuff.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Dave]

Was that the. The studio or the network was like, obviously we're going to have a laugh track. 30 minutes comedy, have to have a laugh track. And the producers kept pushing back and pushing back and they finally reached a compromise where the OR scenes could not have a laugh track. And then there were other, sometimes other episodes or scenes where they were real downers, where they didn't have the laugh track either. But if you watch MASH today, it's easy to kind of miss the laugh track until they get into the OR and then it's glaringly missing.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Dave]

Which I think is actually kind of useful in contrasting, you know, how these surgeons or these. Not just the surgeons, but everybody at the MASH unit is having to get jerked around by reality, like just messing around, getting drunk on homemade gin. And then all of a sudden you have like both of your hands in a 18 year old soldier's chest. Like that's what they were trying to portray. And the kind of smart use of a laugh track actually helped with that.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, for sure. And you know, as a kid and just as an American in general at the time, like the laugh track was so ubiquitous that you didn't really think about it much as being like, weird. It was usually like a studio audience thing. And this was not a studio audience show, but you just sort of accepted it. Apparently the BBC never used the laugh track at all. And then I'm also reminded of, like, I think years back, someone did some Friends episodes without the laugh track and divided them up into clips. And it's just jarring to hear that kind of a show without a laugh track. So Match was sort of a weird case.

[Dave]

We've talked about that. Because not only is it jarring, it's like, this isn't funny at all.

[Josh Clark]

It really cues you and you don't. Even the laugh track sounds like such a dumb thing. Like a hundred years from now. People say, like, they really did that on shows, but it was such an institution in like a certain kind of comedy that. Yeah. Like you said, without it, you don't know when to laugh almost.

[Dave]

Do you remember in the. I guess the 2000 aughts, it must have been right before Cartoon Network came around. Or Adult Swim. Right before Adult Swim, somebody put out like old episodes of Birdman and Space Ghost, like the original 60s episodes. But then they peppered them with laugh tracks, often inappropriately placed where nothing even remotely funny is going on. But the audience, this canned laughter just kind of comes in and it made it so bizarrely funny. Have you not seen those?

[Josh Clark]

Was that Space Ghost coast to Coast.

[Dave]

This is before Space Coast. Coast to Coast.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, okay.

[Dave]

Because. Yeah, Dave.

[Josh Clark]

Dave Willis.

[Dave]

Yeah, Dave Willis was on Space coast coast to Coast. Or he co founded it. I guess he might have had something to do with this because it was clearly attached to Space coast coast to Coast. Because it happened, you know, right before it. But if you watch those, they're just. It's such an easy, basic idea. But it's so funny to watch them.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, man, those early years of Cartoon Network were just the best.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And Comedy Central, like, it used to be so much better, you know?

[Dave]

Oh, yeah, everything. I think Comedy Central is just old south park reruns in the Daily show once in a while.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

That's a real shame. As far as MASH and their storylines go, though, apparently Gelbert and Reynolds interviewed a lot of veterans from the Korean War and got a lot of stuff from that and worked into episodes. Like the episode where a wounded North Korean soldier is in the ER there and he pulls a pin out of a hand grenade that he was hiding on the operating table. Like that apparently really happened, as did a lot of that stuff.

[Dave]

Yeah, yeah. I was like, did it really happen? And I went and found reference to the actual name of the surgeon who told that story in these interviews.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, wow.

[Dave]

Yeah. So, like, it definitely happened. So I Think I said that. Master's on for 11 years. And it premiered in September 72 and ran all the way to February 1983. That is a long run for a show. Yeah, I mean, for back then. Now, like, 11 years is a really long time. But at first it was not very well received, or at the very least, people didn't know about it because it was put up against the Wonderful World of Disney on Sunday nights and it was not doing very well there.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I mean, Wonderful World of Disney was a juggernaut of a show for mainstream America. So Alan Alda apparently used to joke that MASH was one of the top 78 shows on TV early on. And very Alan Alda kind of thing to say. And they moved it, like you said earlier, to after all in the Family, which was a huge hit. And that gave MASH a lot more visibility, obviously. And all of a sudden MASH was the number two show on tv and that was it. And Dave found a great quote from Newsweek, as far as the critical acclaim that I think kind of sums it up. And it is this. Without ever moralizing, MASH is the most moral entertainment on commercial television. It proposes craft against butchery, humor against despair, wit as a defense mechanism against the senseless enormity of the situation. Pretty good stuff.

[Dave]

Yeah, I think the Newsweek people really got it.

[Josh Clark]

Should we talk about the characters?

[Dave]

Yeah, let's, because we've made reference to some, but I feel like we should get a little more in depth with them.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So Hawkeye, we've mentioned a few times he's, I guess you would just call the main character. And that was Alan Alda, by the way. The great Alan Alda. Like, he's one of my heroes in entertainment, really. And by all accounts, just one of the best dudes ever. And he is 90 years old now, which is great. He's still around. And he is one of the great writers and great directors and great actors and great human beings in the history of the TV and movie business, I think.

[Dave]

Did he write a lot of those movies he was in in the early 80s?

[Josh Clark]

I think he co wrote, he directed almost all of them, really. He co wrote 13 MASH episodes, directed 31. And he played, you know, Hawkeye Pierce. This is a little known fact. Did you get that Mental Floss article I sent over? Yeah, with the top or whatever. 12 things.

[Dave]

17.

[Josh Clark]

17. So a few of these guys actually served, at least in the reserves. Alan Aldo served six months in the army reserves in Korea. Pretty crazy.

[Dave]

So did Jamie Farr, who played Corporal Klinger, who is essentially far and away the most famous person, until Katie Holmes came along, to have come from Toledo.

[Josh Clark]

I thought you dictated the Toledo thing. He was always. If you never watch his show, Klinger often referenced the Toledo Mud Hens.

[Dave]

Toledo Mud Hens. And Tony Paco's, which is a real place in Toledo.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, I mean, that's your place. I didn't know he talked about that on the show.

[Dave]

Oh, yeah, he talked about Tony Paco's all the time.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, see, I didn't know what it was back then. I was like, who the hell is Tony Packos?

[Dave]

No, Tony Paco's is like a hot dog place, a Hungarian hot dog place. And every time he would mention the Mud Hens or the Tony Pacos, I would look over at my dad and there'd just be, like, a single tear going down his chest. He was so filled with pride because,

[Josh Clark]

you know, I'm sure that wasn't Old Milwaukee.

[Dave]

He got some on his face.

[Josh Clark]

All right, so Hawkeye's the main guy. He, Alan Alda, for what it's worth, is the first person to win an Emmy for acting, writing and directing on the same show.

[Dave]

Wow.

[Josh Clark]

Then we have his buddy Trapper John, played by Wayne Rogers, who was in real life in the Navy. And he is the, you know, the tent mate and confidant. Apparently, Robert Klein, the great comedian, turned down that role and regretted it.

[Dave]

I could see that. Although Wayne Rogers, the guy who played Trapper John, was like, you know, this guy's not fully fleshed out. I'm basically Hawkeye's sidekick, right? I'm in the sidecar. I'm laughing along with him. We're doing, like, pranks together, but there's no me who is me? And the director was like, I think it's who is I? And they got into a really long disagreement about whether it was I or me. And Wayne Rogers eventually left after the third season. And the reason he was able to was because he never signed a contract with the producers. I guess there was, like, a morality clause. He was like, I'm not signing this. And they forgot to go back and get him to sign something. So he left after the third season, which apparently he seemed fine with.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I mean, MASH is one of those shows like Cheers, that was able to withstand some pretty drastic cast changes. It's hard to pull off as a TV show. Cheers did it very well, and MASH did it very well because three of the main characters ended up being replaced. Trapper was replaced by Honeycutt, BJ Honeycutt, played by Mike Farrell, or maybe it's Pharrell. He was actually a US Marine in real life. He was great. I loved Honeycutt. Again, those later seasons after Trapper left, and as we'll see, some of the other characters left, there were some tonal changes, but I was along for the whole ride. I was in for all of it.

[Dave]

Yeah, especially in the beginning. Hawkeye and Trapper John were like prankster, drunk womanizers. They would harass the nurses and try to get them to sleep with them and all sorts of stuff. And then BJ Honeycutt was a lot different. He was a. A breath of fresh air because he was very true to his wife back home.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, for sure.

[Dave]

And he had a mustache.

[Josh Clark]

That's right. Then we have Radar, of course, Corporal Radar O'Reilly, played by Gary Berghoff. He was named Radar because he was very much a recurring thing on the show. Like every single episode, he would either kind of finish somebody's sentences, usually Colonel Blake's sentence, or know what somebody needed, like, before they needed it, and kind of just hand it to him. Or he would. And this is a lot of times at the end of an episode, he would always sense the helicopters coming in with wounded before you could hear the helicopters. And usually, like, if it was a pretty light episode, there'd be a lot of hijinks that would be kind of halted at the end of the episode when he heard the helicopters coming.

[Dave]

Right. And then there was Colonel Blake. He was one of my favorites, played by McLane Stevenson. And great. He was an actual doctor who was put in charge of this mass unit. And he's like, I have no idea how to run any kind of army outfit. So he was always kind of in over his depth. But he tried really hard. And he would get perturbed, which was kind of funny sometimes because he never got mad. He just got perturbed and befuddled, kind

[Josh Clark]

of a little bit exasperated.

[Dave]

But he wasn't an idiot like it was. It would have been really easy for any actor to portray him as kind of a dummy, but McClane Stevenson managed to keep him from going down that route.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, for sure. He was a man. I loved that character. We should mention, too, that Gary Berg, off his radar, was the only one who bridged the movie as far as being in both. Colonel Blake was then replaced by Colonel Sherman T. Potter, played by Harry Morgan. And he was a very different character than Blake in that. He was an old school soldier, but he also kind of. He wasn't as by the book, as you would think, for an old school soldier. And sort of indulged the antics for the most part.

[Dave]

Yeah. Andy used the term horse feathers a lot. Horse feathers, yes. There was another great character too, who you just love to hate. It was so good. Frank Burns, who's played by Larry Linville. He was. He had what you would term today is justice sensitivity. He liked to follow the rules. He was fine with the military and the requirements for its conformity. And anyone who didn't conform to it was. It just drove him up the wall. And he tried to get them in trouble. So he was like a tried and true fascist, essentially.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, he was a bureaucrat. He was completely the foil of Hawkeye and. And Trapper. He was played by Robert Duvall in the film. But Larry Linville as Ferret Face, as they called him, was just. I mean, I always felt bad for the guy in real life. Cause he was able to play one of the more unlikable characters in like TV history. And he just did it so well. He was a really good actor.

[Dave]

Yeah, we should say also, Frank Burns was not a good surgeon. And at the end of the day, in this mass unit, that's what mattered. Right. That's why Hawkeye and Trapper John got away with all of their antics was because they were really good surgeons. And when it came to it, they were gonna save people's lives. Frank Burns, what made him even worse is that he wasn't even a good surgeon. Like you could die on his operating table because he wasn't that good. And yet he would still go tell on you for, you know, drinking gin that you made in your tent. You know, it made him so much worse.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. They were tent mates, the three of them. Yeah, the two guys. And then Burns lived together. And then he was replaced after the fifth season in season six by David Ogden Steers as Charles Emerson Winchester iii, who was a major. I always thought he was kind of British, but he just sort of did that Mid Atlantic thing. Because he came from a wealthy family in Boston, a family of doctors, apparently. And he was a little less of a foil, but still a bit of a foil.

[Dave]

Yeah, he just didn't blend in with them. Cause he was so snobby. They just had nothing in common, essentially from their backgrounds.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Dave]

Then there's Margaret Hot Lips Houlihan, played by Loretta Swit, who I've seen just from reading up on mash. The TV show is roundly credited as taking like a pretty, one dimensional victim, angry character and turning her into something like really respectable and three dimensional over the course of the 11 seasons. And that she actually got better. Like the character got more involved and impressive and interesting over the years. Thanks to this actor.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, Loretta Sweat. She was great. Rest in peace. I think we lost her last year or the year before, like fairly recently. Oh, yeah, she on the show Hot Lips was having an affair with Frank Burns and they were always sort of coupled together against the other guys and they were bureaucrats. But like you said, she had a great character arc. Ended up really developing into something special and then rounding it out, I guess. We already talked about Klinger. We have Father Mulcahy, played by William Christopher, who is the chaplain. And that's about all we need to say about him. He was just sort of there.

[Dave]

Did we talk about Klingers wearing women's clothing?

[Josh Clark]

Oh, no, that was a big part of it.

[Dave]

Yeah, hugely. Apparently he was written as a one off character initially and he was written as a gay character who wore women's clothes, like full on frilly dresses and sun hats, like Sunday, like going to church kind of stuff. And Jamie Farr was like, look, I think I can do this a little differently. Like imagine if this is a straight guy dressing like this because he wants to get out of the army for some psych thing. And he did such a good job in this one off episode that they brought him back as a character, not just a recurring character. He became one of the characters.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, for sure. And he. Yeah, he was one of the great characters. He tried to eat a jeep in one episode to further prove his mental unfitness to serve. And that was one of the funny episodes. I guess before we take a break, we should rattle off some of these guest stars because MASH had quite a list of people who came on for one episode, including, but not limited to Ron Howard, Leslie Nielsen, Patrick Swayze, Laurence Fishburne, the great George Wint, Terry Garr. Who else you got?

[Dave]

Andrew Dice Clay. Yeah, the Dice Man. Yeah. Just one thing. This is apparently where Leslie Nielsen made the transition to comedy.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, okay.

[Dave]

Was on his appearance on mash.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, that's great.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Rita Wilson.

[Dave]

Oh, oh, we're still going. Yeah. Don't Forget Ed Begley Jr. Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

John Ritter, Shelley Long, Pat Morita. Of course. Pat Morita's in there.

[Dave]

He was in two.

[Josh Clark]

It's Hollywood in the 70s. They're like, we don't care what part of Asia you're from.

[Dave]

Exactly.

[Josh Clark]

Just sign them up.

[Dave]

Exactly. We feel pretty progressive that we're actually casting an Asian to play an Asian.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And yeah, for sure. Um, all right. Shall we take that second break?

[Dave]

Yeah. Yes.

[Questlove]

All right.

[Josh Clark]

We'll be right back. Stuff you should know. Mom, are we there yet?

[Chuck Bryant]

10 more minutes. Only 10 minutes.

[Josh Clark]

Can you drive slower?

[Questlove]

What's up with them today?

[Dave]

Lingokids, that app we downloaded last week.

[Chuck Bryant]

They love it. The games, this funny baby bot character. Kids, we're almost there.

[Hoda Kotb]

No.

[Josh Clark]

With more than 4,000 interactive games, songs and shows, little ones can't get enough of. Lingokids is the number one entertainment platform for young kids. Why didn't we download this sooner?

[Chuck Bryant]

Lingokids, everything kids love, download it for free.

[Hoda Kotb]

Hey, I'm Hoda Kotb, host of the podcast Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb. Together we're going to have meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating. Like when actress Olivia Munn shared how she overcame fierce health challenges.

[Chuck Bryant]

I've gone through breast cancer and then helped my mother through breast cancer, and that was more difficult.

[Josh Clark]

There's a lot of people who understand postpartum depression. I was not prepared for postpartum anxiety.

[Hoda Kotb]

Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Questlove]

This Black Music Month. The Questlove show celebrates the artists, innovators and cultural voices who continue to redefine music. We're sitting down with a groundbreaking country artist, Mickey Guyden.

[Chuck Bryant]

The way that the country music community accepted post Malone versus Beyonce versus Shaboozy. Like, those are very eye opening things.

[Questlove]

Hip hop visionary, Fat five Freddy, genre bending musical genius, Thundercat, and the always legendary revolutionary voice, Chuck D. Yeah, we changed tires, man. I had 18 jobs before. Before this became my occupation, man. Okay. I wrote. I wrote Bum Russell show as a messenger. From unforgettable stories to deep conversations about creativity, culture and legacy, these are the voices shaping the soundtrack of black music past, present and future. Listen to the Questlove show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Josh Clark]

All right, so earlier we talked about some what you would call very special episodes. This was a thing back then on a lot of shows, like, you know, when Arnold and Willis find drugs in different strokes, like when a comedy takes a more serious tone. MASH added quite a few and we can go through these kind of quickly. I'm gonna pick. Sometimes you hear a bullet from season one because that is an episode in which Hawkeye's childhood friend comes over as a journalist to write a book about the war and he ends up dying on Hawkeye's operating table. And that was the first episode that was really very heavy where, like, Hawkeye cries and it gets kind of serious about the horrors of war.

[Dave]

Yes. Okay. All right, I'm gonna pick Dreams from season eight, which is apparently its most controversial episode because it is very jarring, very disturbing, where it covers the. Each of the main characters is taking a rest from, like a long day in the OR where they saw 211 patients over 33 hours. And it goes through each one of their dreams. And it's very surreal. All sorts of weird, disturbing stuff happens. And I haven't seen it, but I want to watch it because it sounds just totally nuts.

[Josh Clark]

But it's pretty weird.

[Dave]

It's completely contrary to any other episode. So I imagine if you were tuning in on Saturday night on CBS expecting, you know, to kind of laugh and maybe cry and you saw this horrible weirdness, you might have had a bad reaction to it.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, for sure. There were two more episodes that were definitely weird as far as mainstream television goes. A documentary style one called the Interview, where it was like a black and white, you know, like a Vietnam era black and white documentary about war. That one was kind of crazy to see on TV at the time. It won a Humanitas prize for a work that explores the human condition in a meaningful way. And then the other one was called Point of View, and the whole thing is shot from, like, the camera's point of view is from a wounded soldier who can't talk. And so all the actors are just coming up and addressing camera as the soldier. And it's again, a very sort of groundbreaking roll of the dice to do for mainstream TV in the 70s, for sure.

[Dave]

And then we gotta talk about Abyssinia. Henry.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, God. Yeah. I mean, this, this episode wrecked little Chuck. Little nine year old Chuck.

[Dave]

I remember this one too. And I was like, where's the laugh track?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Dave]

So Colonel. Colonel Blake, who we both love, played by McLean Stevenson. This is the season three finale. He gets word that he's going home. Like his, his tour is over. He's. He's out of the army now, and so he leaves and that's it. Like, everybody's saying bye. Everybody's happy for him. He's happy. And then at the end of the episode, Radar comes into the OR and he's holding a telegram. And what does the telegram say, Chuck?

[Josh Clark]

I can't even say it.

[Dave]

It says that Colonel Blake's plane went down with Colonel Blake aboard and that there were no survivors. So on his way back Home. After. After becoming beloved by all viewers. Colonel Blake is dead. The writers killed him after he was already off the show. And it just wrecked everybody.

[Josh Clark]

Like you said, it was brutal. Alan Alden knew this was gonna happen. The story goes that they didn't tell the rest of the cast until they got their sides that morning. Cause they wanted, you know, real reaction. Or maybe they didn't even have the sides. Maybe they. I think they just learned when Radar walked in in the scene and Gary Berghoff's acting in that is incredible. And, you know, there's no reaction. Like, no one's like, oh, my God. No, it's just very quietly. They keep operating and you just hear they're crying. And you just hear like, scalpel. You know, suction. And it's devastating.

[Dave]

Yeah, it's good stuff.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Very, very tough.

[Dave]

So, Chuck, I feel like the episode. We can just skip it. You know, the MASH finale. We don't have to talk about that.

[Josh Clark]

No big deal.

[Dave]

I don't know if we said, but surely we've mentioned this before, that the most watched television episode is the final episode of mash, which is really saying something because it was two and a half hours long.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, my God. That's right. I remember it being long. I don't remember it being that long.

[Dave]

Two and a half hours, man.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And of course, that includes commercials. A 30 second spot apparently was $450,000, which would be $1.36 million today. It was called Goodbye, Farewell, Any Men. And it was, you know, the war ends. Basically, it's the last episode. But it is very dramatic for a lot of it. And like, the things the characters go through at the end are all pretty, you know, take pretty dramatic turns.

[Dave]

Yeah. And very famously, in this, like, kind of heartrending montage at the very end, it shows how every character dies in the future.

[Josh Clark]

You're talking about Six Feet Under.

[Dave]

Yeah, that is because I haven't seen

[Josh Clark]

it in a while. I was like, did that really happen?

[Dave]

That is one of the greatest endings to any show ever.

[Josh Clark]

Of course it was great. Also gut wrenching.

[Dave]

Yeah, it was. But Goodbye, Farewell, and Amen is fantastic too, for sure.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So like you said, the biggest rated TV show of all time. And that was like, including sports events up until Super Bowl 2010 finally surpassed it. But MASH is still, as far as just your regular TV show goes, the finale is the most watched. I think 75% of America tuned into that, which is a staggering number. You know, you see Hawkeye in a mental hospital, Father Mulcahy loses his faith in God. He loses his hearing and his faith in God. Klinger ends up marrying a Korean woman and stays there ironically.

[Dave]

Yeah. Cause he was always trying to get out of there. Right.

[Josh Clark]

He's trying to go home.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Did you see the urban possible urban legend about the plumbing in New York City? No, that was in the mental floss thing. I don't know if this is true, but I've always heard this, that the plumbing in New York City supposedly broke during the first commercial break because everybody got up to pee at the same time in New York.

[Dave]

That's awesome.

[Josh Clark]

That totally sounds like. It's probably not real, right? They all flushed at once, and it just broke everything.

[Dave]

All the alligators drowned.

[Josh Clark]

But, yeah, that's funny. It's a good story, though, regardless. But 121 million people tuned in to that episode, and I was one of them. My whole family sat around and we didn't do that kind of thing much.

[Dave]

Oh, we watched it. My mom videotaped it. We watched it on videotape many times, too.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Dave]

Yeah. She'd be like, watch this. Watch this part.

[Josh Clark]

Watch it again.

[Dave]

I have a cute little anecdote about watching mash, though.

[Josh Clark]

All right, let's hear it.

[Dave]

Yumi. So her older brother Bobby, he has special needs. And one day, when they were much, much younger, Yumi must have probably been five or six or something. Bobby had to go to the er, and her dad was a Marine, so they were living on a Marine base at the time. And her mom, like her dad, whisks Bobby off to the er, and her mom tells her that Bobby's going to the hospital. And so Yumi's only frame of reference for military hospitals is a match unit, where there's always bombs going off and everything is kind of nuts. So she was really worried her brother was going to a mass unit, which I've just found endlessly cute.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, that's adorable. That's funny. I'm gonna bring that up next time I see Yumi. That's hysterical.

[Dave]

She'll think that's hilarious. Oh, by the way, Echo and the Bunnymen is Saturday.

[Josh Clark]

This Saturday in Atlanta at the Tabernacle.

[Dave]

Remember, I told you I'd remind you again.

[Josh Clark]

I know. I'm looking to see if I can go. We should probably do this off air.

[Dave]

Oh, okay. I just wanted to remind you.

[Josh Clark]

Okay. You're like, I'm not going, but you should go.

[Dave]

Oh, I'm going.

[Josh Clark]

We will quickly mention the mash spinoffs I teased after mash a Few times as saying post mash. But that was the name of one of the spinoffs that didn't run long, about a season and a half. And it was one of the ones that had the most characters, I guess, from the show. Cause the real Colonel Potter was there, Klinger was there, and Father Mulcahy was there, obviously. All in a hospital post war. A veterans hospital.

[Dave]

Did you watch it? I remember watching Aftermash.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I watched it some, and I remember not loving it, so I don't think I watched at all.

[Dave]

There was also Trapper John, M.D. which was on for seven seasons, and it even was running concurrently at the same time as MASH itself for a lot of that time. Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Kind of weird.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Not have. What was his name?

[Dave]

Wayne Rogers.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Like, they recast it, so it's just, like, why not just call it something else?

[Dave]

Yeah. I guess because everybody loved the character. But even still, a character like 50 years in the future or something like that, you know, or 30 years in the future. So he's an old band. So they had another actor, Purnell Roberts, who you probably know from the 60s touring company of Camelot, but he played Trapper John as an older man.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, okay. So, of course, now I'm a dummy. Like, the reason they called it that was so they could bank on the success of mash.

[Dave]

That's what I would guess.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I didn't think that through.

[Dave]

It almost makes me wonder if they just retrofitted a show that had already been greenlit to Trapper John.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Like the Pit was supposed to be an ER spinoff.

[Dave]

Oh, yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And I think there's still a lawsuit because apparently there's. And of course, I'm speaking completely as someone who doesn't know a lot about this, so look it up if you really want to know. But I think the Michael Crichton estate got involved, and they're like, wait a minute. You can't do an ER spinoff without, like, giving us some juice. Because he came up with the idea for ER or whatever, or wrote the book that it was based on or something. And I think there's a paper trail of. Cause the Pit was like, no, no, no. That wasn't the deal. It's just a new show. It's not supposed to be Noah Wylie's character, but I think there's an email trail where they were like, oh, you want money, huh? Let's just call it something else and change the character's name.

[Dave]

Who is that dumb these days?

[Josh Clark]

I don't know. And I don't know if. I mean, I'm sure I'm getting some details wrong, but I know that it is an ongoing issue, man.

[Dave]

There was one more. It was Walter W A L T E R with the asterisks even.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Dave]

That was a 1984 pilot that didn't. I think it aired one time, and it was aired in the Eastern and Central time zones. It was apparently so bad they didn't even air it in the west that same night.

[Josh Clark]

Didn't they do that for our show?

[Dave]

Pretty much. They tried to cram it all into one night for sure.

[Josh Clark]

Man, that's crazy. I didn't know that about the west coast thing. That is a brutal move.

[Dave]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So we can't even let the California eyes see the show.

[Dave]

Right. So it was about Radar O'Reilly in his life after Korea, and it was played by Gary Berghoff, and he was going to become a cop, and his wife had just left him and he was contemplating suicide. And this was a comedy, a half hour comedy, from what I understand.

[Josh Clark]

So, people, I bet you that's out there. I'm going to have to watch that.

[Dave]

Yeah. You got anything else?

[Josh Clark]

I got nothing else. I appreciate you indulging this one. I know it's not your favorite show, but I thank you.

[Dave]

Hey, I can always talk about MASH for 53 straight minutes anytime you want.

[Josh Clark]

All right, let's do it again right now.

[Dave]

Okay. If you want to know more about mash, just go start watching it. I propose watching the episode Dreams first, maybe just to get it out of the way.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Dave]

And since Chuck said yeah, that means it's time for listener mail.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, not so much a listener mail, even though it was one little inside baseball. But our email has been screwed up for a couple of months now as far as. If you haven't heard back from us, by the way, and you've sent an email lately, it's because our email is super screwed up.

[Dave]

It's my fault.

[Josh Clark]

The good news is we're now getting them again, but they are being forwarded, so you can't directly reply. Long way of saying this comes from Martha Black. And there's really no need in even reading the email because all it was was, hey, Chuck, by the way, that Howard Hughes picture of him as an old guy in Vegas is actor Rip Torn.

[Dave]

No.

[Josh Clark]

And it even says so in the caption that she found. So I definitely have egg on my face for that one, because now that I see it, I'm like, yeah, I guess it is.

[Dave]

Rip Torn is That right, Artie?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, but he was younger and he was, you know, had tissue boxes on his feet, for God's sakes.

[Dave]

It fooled me too, Chuck. Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, well.

[Dave]

Fooled me, too.

[Josh Clark]

And of course that makes sense. There are no pictures of Howard Hughes in Vegas. He didn't allow that.

[Dave]

At least it was an AI.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, that's true.

[Dave]

You know, at least they got Ripped horn to pose for it.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Dave]

So who is that from?

[Josh Clark]

Martha Black.

[Dave]

Thanks a lot, Martha Black. She sounds like an MTV VJ from back in the day.

[Josh Clark]

That's right.

[Dave]

If you want to be like Martha Black and show off your name, you can email us too. Hopefully we'll get it. These days. Send it off to stuffpodcastheartradio.com

[Chuck Bryant]

Stuff youf Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

[Josh Clark]

For more podcasts My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

[Chuck Bryant]

you listen to your favorite shows. This is Jana Kramer from Wind down with Jana Kramer. Hey, quick question for the parents listening right now. When's the last time your kid asked for something and you actually felt good saying yes? Because lately a lot of families have been hearing the same thing. Can I have lingo kids, please? And here's the thing. LingoKids is the number one entertainment platform for young kids with more than 4,000 interactive games, songs and shows. Astronauts, wild animals, superheroes, dinosaurs. It's literally everything kids love all in one place. So when they ask for it, you can actually feel good Saying Yes. Download LingoKids for free and start exploring today, or unlock even more amazing content with LingoKids Plus. And if you go with the yearly plan, you can save up to 60%. Search LingoKids in the App Store or Google Play. LingoKids everything kids love.

[Hoda Kotb]

Joy is essential, and it's also elusive. But now there's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence. Joy101 It's a new podcast hosted by me. How to Cop Me. If you're craving inspiration to maximize your journey, tune into these candid, uplifting and moving on air chats. Listen to Joy 101 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb is presented by CBS.

[Josh Clark]

This is Michael Rapoport and my podcast, the I Am Rappaport Stereo podcast is unlike anyone you've ever heard. If you're looking for strong opinions about sports, entertainment, politics, pop culture, and whatever else catches my attention, then subscribe now. This kid Jafar Jackson should absolutely, positively get nominated for his portrayal as Michael Jackson. Listen to I Am rappaport on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Chuck Bryant]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Josh Clark]

Guaranteed Human.